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Old 04-13-2010, 07:43 AM   #41
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Default Re: Devil's Advocate: Zetsu is Akatsuki Leader

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wooster View Post
Everyone hear that? is now the Obito=Tobi emoticon.

So let it be written.

So let it be done.

Obito is Tobi I know it.
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Old 04-13-2010, 09:36 AM   #42
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Default Re: Devil's Advocate: Zetsu is Akatsuki Leader

wasn't this supposed to be about Zetsu....why did I just read 3 pages of stupid Tobi = Obito logic?
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Old 04-13-2010, 09:47 AM   #43
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Default Re: Devil's Advocate: Zetsu is Akatsuki Leader

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler View Post
wasn't this supposed to be about Zetsu....why did I just read 3 pages of stupid Tobi = Obito logic?
Title change.

This is the Devil's Advocate thread. Tobi=Obito has been disproven. You can start the Zetsu debate if you like.
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Old 04-13-2010, 09:53 AM   #44
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Default Re: Devil's Advocate: Zetsu is Akatsuki Leader

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wooster View Post
Title change.

This is the Devil's Advocate thread. Tobi=Obito has been disproven. You can start the Zetsu debate if you like.

Nah, Kishi will prove that Zetsu is the real master mind soon enough anyway

/sarcasm
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Old 04-13-2010, 10:16 AM   #45
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Default Re: Devil's Advocate: Zetsu is Akatsuki Leader

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler View Post
Nah, Kishi will prove that Zetsu is the real master mind soon enough anyway

/sarcasm

I sense sarcasm in your response.
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Old 04-13-2010, 01:17 PM   #46
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Default Re: Devil's Advocate: Zetsu is Akatsuki Leader

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Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
I sense sarcasm in your response.
what gave it away?
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Old 04-13-2010, 02:51 PM   #47
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Default Re: Devil's Advocate: Zetsu is Akatsuki Leader

Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler View Post
what gave it away?
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Old 04-13-2010, 03:23 PM   #48
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Default Re: Devil's Advocate: Zetsu is Akatsuki Leader

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
Hey! I think you're emoticon is teh Obito! Laugh out loudz!
Teh Obito iz Liek i never knew. Koool. Obito =
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Old 04-15-2010, 04:38 PM   #49
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Default Re: Devil's Advocate: Zetsu is Akatsuki Leader

yo....i've come to counter your "flawless" argumentation.

Note that im not the devils advocate.I am the devil.

Your main argument seems to be a timeline problem.
Quote:
Here's a good timeline. Blood Mist stopped when Zabuza was young, it was a consquence of his actions. Zabuza around Kakashi's age if not a bit older. Furthermore Yakura has to be Mizukage for a few years. Meaning that there's no way Obito could be controlling the village. He might not even had "died" yet. Therefore, either Obito is not Tobi or Mei became Mizukage only in the last few years. Yakura was before, and the Blood Mist time was still another Mizukage. If Obito is Tobi, this third Mizukage was not Tobi.
That would make Madara the mizukage impossible as well.Since Zabusa didn't see Tobi, Kisame did.
So Kisame see's tobi without a mask and realises he's been mizukage aswell as Madara. Kisame is young, he could believe Obito to be madara.Or even make joke about it.

Here timeline:
17-15 yrs ago

Madara becomes Mizukage (3) (Note Below!)

Yagura becomes Mizukage (4)

Zabuza attempts to asassinate Mizukage (Tobi/Yagura?)
Asassination fails.

Fourth takes Kakishi and Obito and Rin into land of Rock.
Obito dies after transferring Sharingan to Kakishi.
Kakishi uses Chidori with Sharingan.

Fourth becomes Hokage.

Kakishi masters Chidori.

Naruto born.
Kushina Uzumaki dies.

9 tails attacks village (Note: I do not believe Natural disaster. It was Madara again)
Recognizing that the Nine-Tails was being controlled by Madara Uchiha,
Minato decided to seal it in Naruto and give Konoha the means to combat Madara if he should ever attack the village again. (wiki)
Minato dies.
---

Is it me, or does it seem like you switch zabusa with kisame when needed?
Zabusa has no clue about tobi, he shouldn't even be mentioned.

Quote:
Obito is Tobi:
The Nine Tails attack 12 years before the start of Naruto. Kakashi is ~26, thus he is 14 at the time of the Nine Tails attack. Obito is about the same age as Kakashi. Tobi, if he is to be Obito, would only be 14. Minato would definitely notice this masked man as only a boy. Not to mention likely his student, who died only two years before. So therefore this Tobi could not be Obito.

Maybe Obito became Tobi later. Nope, we already disproved that. Tobi has always been the same person. We know this do to Kisame.

Therefore, Obito is not Tobi.
This core of this argument lies in this:
Quote:
Minato would definitely notice this masked man as only a boy. Not to mention likely his student, who died only two years before.
Really?Now would he now?What a prove.2 years is a long time in naruto universe.In 2 years, naruto couldn't even do one replica, to being one of the strongest in the ninja world.


I guess this is enough, you'll need to clarify your exact points now.It needs to get more specific.
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Old 04-15-2010, 04:57 PM   #50
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Default Re: Devil's Advocate: Zetsu is Akatsuki Leader

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bratcipheo View Post

Is it me, or does it seem like you switch zabusa with kisame when needed?
Zabusa has no clue about tobi, he shouldn't even be mentioned.



This core of this argument lies in this:

Really?Now would he now?What a prove.2 years is a long time in naruto universe.In 2 years, naruto couldn't even do one replica, to being one of the strongest in the ninja world.


I guess this is enough, you'll need to clarify your exact points now.It needs to get more specific.
It's you. We were talking about Zabuza for another reason to establish a time line.

And since you can't understand that point I guess you force me to elaborate. The time line you used works well enough, except for the fact 17 years ago Kisame was not young he is quite old after all. But that is besides the point. Kisame knows "Madara's" face, who ever "Madara" happens to be. Kisame does not recognize "Tobi" until he removes his mask. This tells us Madara didn't wear his mask around Kisame. Therefore Tobi must be the same person Kisame knows as Madara. Is this "Madara" really Madara, who knows. "Madara" can say whatever he likes.

But you just admitted that at the beginning that it was Madara. Kisame forces it to be the same person. You lose.

Now if you want to state that Madara was never in Mist village, you fail again because Tobi is too young.

You just stated that Madara attacked Konoha or did you mean Tobi?
What ever the case, Minato saw him and later recognizes Tobi. Are you telling me he can recognize a masked man 16 years later, but not in two? Or more importantly that Kishimoto would write such a pile of steaming crap like that. He can mind you, but I will rake him across the coals if he does.
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Old 04-15-2010, 05:39 PM   #51
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Default Re: Devil's Advocate: Zetsu is Akatsuki Leader

Quote:
Kisame knows "Madara's" face, who ever "Madara" happens to be. Kisame does not recognize "Tobi" until he removes his mask. This tells us Madara didn't wear his mask around Kisame. Therefore Tobi must be the same person Kisame knows as Madara. Is this "Madara" really Madara, who knows. "Madara" can say whatever he likes
I agree with this.The person under the mask is know as madara to kisame.And he hasn't used the mask around him before.Thats all we know from this.

Quote:
But you just admitted that at the beginning that it was Madara. Kisame forces it to be the same person. You lose.
No idea what you're talking about.The one that kisame saw, is the one he acknowledges as madara, therefore it couldn't be the real madara.
So, real madara was never mizukage.The exact time when man behind the mask was mizukage isnt even known, thats quite a problem.

your counter would be:
Quote:
Now if you want to state that Madara was never in Mist village, you fail again because Tobi is too young.
No tobi is not to young, guess you mean Obito here?I'll assume that.
Obito would only be to young, when the exact point in time is clarified when hes mizukage.But we dont know, we don't even know if he was controling any, or faking, or anything.We dont know.

Quote:
You just stated that Madara attacked Konoha or did you mean Tobi?
What ever the case, Minato saw him and later recognizes Tobi. Are you telling me he can recognize a masked man 16 years later, but not in two?
I meant Tobi attacked.It was clearly tobi.
.com/Naruto/440/10/
( o n e m a n g a)
He saw a mask at the attack, and then he died, or put himself into naruto.
16 years later he see the man again through naruto, with the mask.Dont see the problem here.He never saw Tobi without a mask.Dont get your point here, its flawed.

Quote:
Or more importantly that Kishimoto would write such a pile of steaming crap like that. He can mind you, but I will rake him across the coals if he does.
You might laugh, im pretty sure that kishi didn't intend the fourth hokage to be naruto's father from the beginning.He added it because of the theory, that it fit and the fanbase.
Naruto vs. Neji fight would have been garbage then, well, kinda is even now.Naruto proved you can be something with determination and its not down to blood.Guess what, neji was right, it was blood.Hokage blood.
You can hear Jiraija's thoughts about Naruto several times when they meet.He would have pointed something out there, instead he thought of him as the jinshuriki boy and asked his name.
Well i like that he's his father now, but im quite sure it wasn't intended from the beginning, which is okay, look at bleach, author doesn't seem to look 10 chapters ahead.Well, i dont wanna discuss naruto's father now, but im just saying.Author doesn't give a crap about your theories, he makes the manga, if tobi becomes obito, then tobi were obito all along.
Because...dont you find it suspicious?....kakashi gaiden?...It's like a huge flashback...only to show kakashi's childhood and how he gained his sharingan.It has no value anymore, its crap, the hidden reason for kakashi gaiden is to introduce obito aswell, thats what i believe.So when obito actually becomes tobi, you cant object.They're to alike, maskform, only right eye, hair, personality, eye power(kakashi and tobi have both eyepowers that are nearly identical), so when tobi becomes obito, you cant complain.


But don't get me wrong.Im not entirely sure that hes fully obito, im rather on the line:Is anything about tobi, obito at all?Such as his body, soul, or just right eye.Anything, and im happy, since the point why i believe tobi is obito, or even if only partly, is because i suspect something happening with with kakashi there.The "Omg, obito?" or "It's his eye?..." emotional shock is just to big to ignore.

EDIT:What i also find interisting.They added kakashi gaiden later in the anime, right before the appearance of tobi i believe.Or around there.

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Old 04-15-2010, 05:47 PM   #52
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Default Re: Devil's Advocate: Zetsu is Akatsuki Leader

Haha just noticed what Yondaime says to naruto:
.com/Naruto/440/10/
( o n e m a n g a)

"A Man with a the mask. Back then... he saw through everything i did."

Is it a hint?...Well either the real Madara was just incredible strong, or....he knew how he would fight, his jutsu's, everything.Since he was his student, Obito.
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Old 04-15-2010, 06:05 PM   #53
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Default Re: Devil's Advocate: Zetsu is Akatsuki Leader

I am not going to go point by point because strangely enough it seems we mostly agree.

However, I still think you missing two points. One: Kisame recognized "Madara" that means he has seen him before. That means whoever he is must always be the same person.

Two: The trouble with Minato is that the Obito was only what? 14, he should be a boy. The resemblances should have been obvious to Obito. Why Minato in Naruto's mind*sigh* recognizes this boy as the current man is beyond me. A 30 year old looks much like a 46 year old, a few more wrinkles sure. A 14 year old does not look like a 30 year old.

As for the rest, this where I really agree. I absolutely believe that the Fourth was not Naruto father in the beginning. I also believe Kishimoto screwed up the Jiraiya meeting. Sure you can fix that by saying he was just pretending he didn't know Naruto. Itachi Twist is the most problematic. But I am not going to bring that up, I already caught dozens upon dozens of posts raining down on me for suggesting that there are plot holes there.

I will not criticize anyone for strange theories about Tobi, I think he is Madara's ghost. NO ONE besides me believes that. With Kabtuo around Tobi can easily come back. Kishimoto loves repeating himself. Sarutobi vs. Orochimaru, Jiraiya vs. Nagato, probably Kakashi vs. Sasuke.

So since we've seen Orochimaru use the First and the Second versus Sarutobi IF Obito is dead, Kabtuo might use Obito if Kakashi becomes problematic. Heck, maybe Madara has been storing Obito, he did say he likes to collect Sharingan.

But I wouldn't base my hopes on a good story. I thought Danzo was the prefect counterpoint to Naruto. I thought there was going to be a clash of their world views. Nope, Kishimoto killed him off. I don't think Kishimoto wants to do anything that complicated. He's writing to his audience.

As I've said before I don't believe Obito can be Tobi. I only needed to convince myself. It is quite irrelevant to me if others want to believe that. It really is fine with me.
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Old 04-15-2010, 06:12 PM   #54
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Default Re: Devil's Advocate: Zetsu is Akatsuki Leader

5 years before Nine Tails attacked Zabuza graduated from the Academy.

3 years before Nine Tails attacked Haku was born. Although we are not
given specific dates Haku lived through the Bloody Mist for some time.
Haku was probably around 7 years old when he joined up with Zabuza.
Zabuza tells Haku that he has to flee the Hidden Mist. So the failed
coup probably happened not too long before Zabuza was talking to Haku.

If Haku was 7 when he met Zabuza and that the failed coup happened not
long before (since Zabuza is leaving the Hidden Mist it should be only a day or two)
then the Bloody Mist was still going on 4 years after Nine Tails attacked Konoha.

Kakashi Gaiden happened 1 year before Nine tails attacked.

However if the Bloody Mist ended before Kakashi Gaiden then Haku would have been
just two years old when he met Zabuza which is highly unlikely seeing how Haku
appears MUCH older than two years old when he meets Zabuza.

It's also unlikely that the Bloody Mist had ended when Zabuza met Haku because
the threat of being there was from the era of the Bloody Mist.

Kisame is two years older than Zabuza. Both of them were of the 7 swordsman
of the Hidden Mist during the time it was The Bloody Mist. If they were
swordsman during the time of Kakashi Gaiden, Zabuza would have been 13
years old and Kisame would have been 15. Given how Chojurro appears
around the same age as Naruto that seems quite plausible.
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Old 04-15-2010, 06:17 PM   #55
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Default Re: Devil's Advocate: Zetsu is Akatsuki Leader

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
Kakashi Gaiden happened 1 year before Nine tails attacked.
corrected you there...
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Old 04-15-2010, 06:21 PM   #56
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Default Re: Devil's Advocate: Zetsu is Akatsuki Leader

Im happy that we agree on some parts, allthough on the ghost thing.

Well, I think its easy why Minato recognised the 30 year old, which he saw as a 16 old before(2 years later right?) Well....they both got the same funny spiral mask you know, kinda an easy thing to recognise if you ask me.

The other problem was Kisame.Whats his exact age?When did he meet Tobi as madara/mizukage?When was he mizukage.I don't believe thats prooved exactly anywhere in the manga yet.It's to unsure.Kishi could easyly pull of a Kisame flashback, which then would funny enough fit the young obito-evil coming and being mizukage.Easely.I don't think its a question of, *can he make tobi obito?*, but * will he make tobi obito?* And i think indeed, he will.Thats the point of the mask anyway.Because:

Why on earth should madara wear a mask?I mean, for real.Why?Why should he keep it on even now.Conceal his idendity...no wait...he tells eveyrone hes madara.....ehm...why then?There's no reason.The reason is that we will get shocked when we finnaly see his face.That i can claim as a very likely fact.We will get stunned/shocked to see tobi's face.

Why?What else than him not being Madara?Or just ugly...
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Old 04-15-2010, 06:23 PM   #57
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Default Re: Devil's Advocate: Zetsu is Akatsuki Leader

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
5 years before Nine Tails attacked Zabuza graduated from the Academy.

3 years before Nine Tails attacked Haku was born. Although we are not
given specific dates Haku lived through the Bloody Mist for some time.
Haku was probably around 7 years old when he joined up with Zabuza.
Zabuza tells Haku that he has to flee the Hidden Mist. So the failed
coup probably happened not too long before Zabuza was talking to Haku.

If Haku was 7 when he met Zabuza and that the failed coup happened not
long before (since Zabuza is leaving the Hidden Mist it should be only a day or two)
then the Bloody Mist was still going on 4 years after Nine Tails attacked Konoha.

Kakashi Gaiden happened 1 year after Nine tails attacked.

However if the Bloody Mist ended before Kakashi Gaiden then Haku would have been
just two years old when he met Zabuza which is highly unlikely seeing how Haku
appears MUCH older than two years old when he meets Zabuza.

It's also unlikely that the Bloody Mist had ended when Zabuza met Haku because
the threat of being there was from the era of the Bloody Mist.

Kisame is two years older than Zabuza. Both of them were of the 7 swordsman
of the Hidden Mist during the time it was The Bloody Mist. If they were
swordsman during the time of Kakashi Gaiden, Zabuza would have been 13
years old and Kisame would have been 15. Given how Chojurro appears
around the same age as Naruto that seems quite plausible.
Hmm...Hmm...I think you have just knocked one of the legs out from my stool. It be possible for Kisame to only know a "Madara" after the Nine Tails attack.

However, then Minato says that two different people are the same. Man you are sorta dumb Minato.

Fine I withdraw my argument that it's impossible for Obito to be Tobi. It still would be stupid. At least stupid on Minato's part.
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Old 04-15-2010, 06:26 PM   #58
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Default Re: Devil's Advocate: Zetsu is Akatsuki Leader

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 View Post
Ok for those who don't know what playing the devil's advocate is
it's when you take the stance of an argument you don't agree with.
This is done to help strengthen your original argument. And is fun.

So for the record...I DON'T think Zetsu is the Akatsuki mastermind.


But for the sake of the devil's advocate argument thingamahjig...


Zetsu is the Akatsuki Mastermind

Prove me wrong.
Zetsu isn't much of a fighter or a ploter so he really wouldn't be a good leader. All the akatsuki uses him for is to record battles so they determine how to work things out in their favor.
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Old 04-15-2010, 06:28 PM   #59
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Default Re: Devil's Advocate: Zetsu is Akatsuki Leader

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Originally Posted by Bratcipheo View Post
Im happy that we agree on some parts, allthough on the ghost thing.

Well, I think its easy why Minato recognised the 30 year old, which he saw as a 16 old before(2 years later right?) Well....they both got the same funny spiral mask you know, kinda an easy thing to recognise if you ask me.

The other problem was Kisame.Whats his exact age?When did he meet Tobi as madara/mizukage?When was he mizukage.I don't believe thats prooved exactly anywhere in the manga yet.It's to unsure.Kishi could easyly pull of a Kisame flashback, which then would funny enough fit the young obito-evil coming and being mizukage.Easely.I don't think its a question of, *can he make tobi obito?*, but * will he make tobi obito?* And i think indeed, he will.Thats the point of the mask anyway.Because:

Why on earth should madara wear a mask?I mean, for real.Why?Why should he keep it on even now.Conceal his idendity...no wait...he tells eveyrone hes madara.....ehm...why then?There's no reason.The reason is that we will get shocked when we finnaly see his face.That i can claim as a very likely fact.We will get stunned/shocked to see tobi's face.

Why?What else than him not being Madara?Or just ugly...
Of course you don't agree on the ghost thing. No one does. Mrsticky solved the problem with Kisame. Essentially in your favor. I must withdraw that argument. If anything Madara attacked the Ninetails and Kisame met Obito. If that's the assumption you want.

I think the mask only has to do with his eye. We kind of have seen alot of Tobi's face given all the angles. He looks like an older man. The only thing we haven't see is his eye. Obviously something is going on there. I don't know why it's hidden Tobi has a lot of sharingan. Even if he is Obito why not replace that eye?

But as I said, mrsticky blew up my theory, so I cannot without a doubt say Obito is not Tobi.
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Old 04-15-2010, 06:31 PM   #60
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Default Re: Devil's Advocate: Zetsu is Akatsuki Leader

Quote:
Hmm...Hmm...I think you have just knocked one of the legs out from my stool. It be possible for Kisame to only know a "Madara" after the Nine Tails attack.

However, then Minato says that two different people are the same. Man you are sorta dumb Minato.

Fine I withdraw my argument that it's impossible for Obito to be Tobi. It still would be stupid. At least stupid on Minato's part.
QQ .;D, you could become a believer?Well then fast, while the iron is hot, read my arguments why obito is tobi, and why obito SHOULD be tobi.

http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=333&page=6
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