An Analysis Of The Significance Of Chapter 485

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by C4 Karura

-_-... Read the chapters. He has no idea who Naruto is. It's entirely chance that they meet. It's only upon seeing the seal on Naruto's stomach that he realizes who he is.

This isn't true, well the retcon later makes it untrue. During the flashback that Kakashi had, Jiraiya makes it clear he wants to train Naruto, which is before the end of the chunin exam.

It's never stated, but Jiraiya only made it look like it was a chance meeting. Jiraiya also said he wasn't following Orochimaru, obviously that wasn't true. It was nearly his life goal. He must have only talked about Orochimaru to Kakashi and Hiruzen though.

[philippe]

What I already posted, what Jiraya said to Kakashi in 143 proves that I`m right, you just don`t want to admit it. If he had found out who Naruto is only when they met, wouldn`t he be at least surprised? He would, but he wasn`t.

In 143 he is talking to Kakashi and talking about the Nine-tails sealed in Naruto, so how could he possibly only find out when they met??? He already knew before he met Naruto in person.

[C4 Karura]

If Kakashi and Jiriaya had planned before the Hot Springs that Jiriaya would train him, then why would Kakashi tell Naruto Ebisu was teaching him? That flashback happened sometime after Jiriaya met Naruto, but before the Third Stage of the Chunin Exams.

[Wooster]

Here's my official response to your comments. I will be general because I don't think it's worth it to go point by point.

I'm glad you think that most of this was a copy of the Final valley. It was virtually a flashback except it wasn't, kind of strange. I don't know if this was laziness on Kishimoto's part or that he thought he needed to summarise it because it happened so long ago in real time.

Karin moment, eh I don't really. I just glad Sasuke will no longer get her free health upgrades. Also Sasuke trying to kill her didn't really change her mind, she did want to see him before she died. It almost seems how Sasuke treated Sakura and Sakura's reaction changed Karin. Look at that Sakura's becoming Naruto. Heh.

I think the trading places symbolism is hackneyed at best. It was okay, but the Gaara and Naruto symbolism is much better. Especially, the part at the end with Gamabunta's sword between them. That half and half was striking and subtle at the same time.

Secondly, I don't think it's true. Naruto is nothing like Sasuke that's why he is different. When Naruto faces adversity he tries harder, Sasuke just gets whatever he wants, that is he is spoiled. Even if Kakashi trained Naruto and Jiraiya trained Sasuke, I imagine the exact same events would have occured. Only this time Sasuke would be upset that the chidori was nearly as strong as the rasengan. Naruto acted like a prankser, and Sasuke sulked. The have completely different outlooks on life even if the were handed similar unfortunate childhoods.

I agree that Sasuke may becoming back around. I disagree that it is bad. To this point Sasuke has been a pathetic villian. Right after he killed Danzo, he was at his best; however, that moment didn't last long. If Sasuke can be a likable villian(I mean great to hate) then he might as well stop being a villian.

I think a contrite Sasuke could be interesting as well, especially since he would no longer have the sharingan and be nearly blind, but you can see my The Blind Ninja thread for my thoughts on that idea.

Overall, you have summarized the chapter pretty much how it occured. But my estimation is that this is a transition chpater, and thus not really good if not outright bad.

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by C4 Karura

If Kakashi and Jiriaya had planned before the Hot Springs that Jiriaya would train him, then why would Kakashi tell Naruto Ebisu was teaching him? That flashback happened sometime after Jiriaya met Naruto, but before the Third Stage of the Chunin Exams.

But Kakashi was outside the village training Sasuke during that time. If that isn't true why was everyone wondering where Sasuke was?

It just makes sense that Jiraiya knew who Naruto was but didn't want to let on. Ebisu was just used so Jiraiya could watch Naruto without Naruto being aware. Clearly Ebisu didn't know he was being used.

[philippe]

That flashback didn`t happen after Jiraya met naruto and before the third stage of the Chuunin exmas. Why?

In the flashback Jiraya told Kakashi, to take care of Sasuke.

When Jiraya and Naruto met, Kakashi was already training Sasuke.

As for Ebisu. It`s like Jiraya acting like he doesn`t know naruto when they met. He simply wanted it that way, je didn`t want Naruto to know, that Jiraya wants to train him. Him thinking, that he is training him because he persuated him to, made naruto feel better. Thats it.

[C4 Karura]

Originally Posted by Wooster

Here's my official response to your comments. I will be general because I don't think it's worth it to go point by point.

I'm glad you think that most of this was a copy of the Final valley. It was virtually a flashback except it wasn't, kind of strange. I don't know if this was laziness on Kishimoto's part or that he thought he needed to summarise it because it happened so long ago in real time.

Karin moment, eh I don't really. I just glad Sasuke will no longer get her free health upgrades. Also Sasuke trying to kill her didn't really change her mind, she did want to see him before she died. It almost seems how Sasuke treated Sakura and Sakura's reaction changed Karin. Look at that Sakura's becoming Naruto. Heh.
Maybe.
I think the trading places symbolism is hackneyed at best. It was okay, but the Gaara and Naruto symbolism is much better. Especially, the part at the end with Gamabunta's sword between them. That half and half was striking and subtle at the same time.
It certaintly wasn't as great as the Gaara one, but it still stands for so much more than them switching attacks. You may think it's a gimmick, but how else is Kishi going to get people to realized that they switched places? Even with it, a few people still didn't get it.
Secondly, I don't think it's true. Naruto is nothing like Sasuke that's why he is different. When Naruto faces adversity he tries harder, Sasuke just gets whatever he wants, that is he is spoiled. Even if Kakashi trained Naruto and Jiraiya trained Sasuke, I imagine the exact same events would have occured. Only this time Sasuke would be upset that the chidori was nearly as strong as the rasengan. Naruto acted like a prankser, and Sasuke sulked. The have completely different outlooks on life even if the were handed similar unfortunate childhoods.
I discussed this with other people, and we decided this: Even if Oro had given Naruto the curse mark, he still wouldn't have used it. His turning point came much earlier in series, back in Chapter 1, when he finds out that he's the Nine-Tails jinchuriki, and that's why everyone hates him. If Iruka hadn't stood up for him, he might've decided to make everyone in the Leaf Village pay, like Mizuki wanted.
I agree that Sasuke may becoming back around. I disagree that it is bad. To this point Sasuke has been a pathetic villian. Right after he killed Danzo, he was at his best; however, that moment didn't last long. If Sasuke can be a likable villian(I mean great to hate) then he might as well stop being a villian.

I think a contrite Sasuke could be interesting as well, especially since he would no longer have the sharingan and be nearly blind, but you can see my The Blind Ninja thread for my thoughts on that idea.
"The Blind Ninja" thread was definitely an interesting theory, and one of the few ways I'll be able to accept Kishi making him good again.
Overall, you have summarized the chapter pretty much how it occured. But my estimation is that this is a transition chpater, and thus not really good if not outright bad.

Sorry. I just wanted to point out a few things with this thread, like how much Sasuke's speech in this chapter means, even though nobody seemed to notice it.

[C4 Karura]

Originally Posted by Wooster

But Kakashi was outside the village training Sasuke during that time. If that isn't true why was everyone wondering where Sasuke was?

It just makes sense that Jiraiya knew who Naruto was but didn't want to let on. Ebisu was just used so Jiraiya could watch Naruto without Naruto being aware. Clearly Ebisu didn't know he was being used.

Ok, but why would he need to use Ebisu? Why couldn't he just send Naruto directly to Jiriaya? Also, they could have talked before Kakashi left the village. 15 days pass between when Naruto starts being trained by Jiriaya, and when we first see that Kakashi's left the village.

Originally Posted by philippe

That flashback didn`t happen after Jiraya met naruto and before the third stage of the Chuunin exmas. Why?

In the flashback Jiraya told Kakashi, to take care of Sasuke.

When Jiraya and Naruto met, Kakashi was already training Sasuke.

As for Ebisu. It`s like Jiraya acting like he doesn`t know naruto when they met. He simply wanted it that way, je didn`t want Naruto to know, that Jiraya wants to train him. Him thinking, that he is training him because he persuated him to, made naruto feel better. Thats it.

Jiriaya tells Kakashi, "For now, focus on Sasuke... It's up to you to teach him how to use his Sharingan... Especially since Itachi's part of the organization."

Kakashi's already been training Sasuke. Jiriaya's telling him that he doesn't need to worry about Naruto, but to focus his efforts on training Sasuke.

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by C4 Karura

It certaintly wasn't as great as the Gaara one, but it still stands for so much more than them switching attacks. You may think it's a gimmick, but how else is Kishi going to get people to realized that they switched places? Even with it, a few people still didn't get it.

Well some people are stupid or maybe just don't read carefully. Besides just becasue it's the only way doesn't mean I need to praise Kishimoto for it. That's like praising Kishimoto for drawing a kunai during an attack. It's necessary, but not anything special.

As I said I don't see the point of them switching places. It makes sense that out of anyone Naruto can understand Sasuke, but not so much that he believes he could have been Sasuke.

I discussed this with other people, and we decided this: Even if Oro had given Naruto the curse mark, he still wouldn't have used it. His turning point came much earlier in series, back in Chapter 1, when he finds out that he's the Nine-Tails jinchuriki, and that's why everyone hates him. If Iruka hadn't stood up for him, he might've decided to make everyone in the Leaf Village pay, like Mizuki wanted.

Iruka did change Naruto, but it was from a prankster to a serious, never-give-up ninja. The worst that would of happen would be that Naruto would run away. Then I suppose he could have been attacked by the village and turned into the nine-tailed fox, but that's not quite the same as wanting revenge on the village.

Sasuke was brooding jerk even though everyone liked him, for somewhat understandable reasons, his whole clan was killed.

But the biggest difference between Naruto and Sasuke is how they handle adversity. I imagine that is because everything came easy to Sasuke, but was a struggle for Naruto. In short, they are inherently two different people, so even with the same circumstances, they react differently.

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by C4 Karura

Ok, but why would he need to use Ebisu? Why couldn't he just send Naruto directly to Jiriaya? Also, they could have talked before Kakashi left the village. 15 days pass between when Naruto starts being trained by Jiriaya, and when we first see that Kakashi's left the village.

Jiriaya tells Kakashi, "For now, focus on Sasuke... It's up to you to teach him how to use his Sharingan... Especially since Itachi's part of the organization."

Kakashi's already been training Sasuke. Jiriaya's telling him that he doesn't need to worry about Naruto, but to focus his efforts on training Sasuke.

It's never going to make complete sense because as I said it was retconed in. Jiraiya also told Ebisu he wasn't following Orochimaru, we know that wasn't true. Clearly the original intent was Jiraiya met Naruto by chance. Obviously later Kishimoto wanted Jiraiya to be the tracker of Orochimaru and the Akatsuki. To do that Jiraiya needs to know everything about Akatsuki and thus the tailed beasts. Obviously, Jiraiya has to know Naruto because he has all the seals for the nine tails. Not to mention Naruto was named after his character in the book.

The best we can do is assume Jiraiya was just acting like Naruto and he met by chance. It works all right becasue the retcon happened very close to the actual events.

[C4 Karura]

Originally Posted by Wooster

It's never going to make complete sense because as I said it was retconed in. Jiraiya also told Ebisu he wasn't following Orochimaru, we know that wasn't true. Clearly the original intent was Jiraiya met Naruto by chance. Obviously later Kishimoto wanted Jiraiya to be the tracker of Orochimaru and the Akatsuki. To do that Jiraiya needs to know everything about Akatsuki and thus the tailed beasts. Obviously, Jiraiya has to know Naruto because he has all the seals for the nine tails. Not to mention Naruto was named after his character in the book.

The best we can do is assume Jiraiya was just acting like Naruto and he met by chance. It works all right becasue the retcon happened very close to the actual events.

I'm going to agree with this opinion in the debate. Thanks for explaining it so well, Wooster.

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by C4 Karura

I'm going to agree with this opinion in the debate. Thanks for explaining it so well, Wooster.

Just be careful. For some reason people get upset if you question the plot at all. They think Kishimoto has had the whole plot in his head from the very beginning, which is just not true. But you saw my When bears attack thread.

[C4 Karura]

Originally Posted by Wooster

Just be careful. For some reason people get upset if you question the plot at all. They think Kishimoto has had the whole plot in his head from the very beginning, which is just not true. But you saw my When bears attack thread.

Yep! Darn, you keep on making posts that I want to give you rep for, and then get a message saying I have to spread it around first. (Not on this post, but on several previous ones in the thread.)

[sardns]

I actually thought it was kind of significant that Sakura yelled at Sasuke. I mean, when has she done that before?

[C4 Karura]

Originally Posted by sardns

I actually thought it was kind of significant that Sakura yelled at Sasuke. I mean, when has she done that before?

When Sasuke left the village. But her being angry at him is kind of new.

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by C4 Karura

Yep! Darn, you keep on making posts that I want to give you rep for, and then get a message saying I have to spread it around first. (Not on this post, but on several previous ones in the thread.)

Don't worry about it. I have yet to up rep anyone twice because I can't. I suppose I should be upping my reps. I gotta build those pecs.

[dillydally]

I agree with C4 mostly. I thought it was a good chapter (I jump for joy when Karin gave up on sasuke). Although I was dissapoint how blunt the symbolism was, it could of been so much better if it were subtle, but I like the message it gave so I'll forgive that.

The only part of your agrument that I disagree with is the part were you said that Sasuke seems less crazy after this chapter; mainly because even tho he now explain his reasoning, his plan still sound really messed up. Ontop of that Sasuke is also acting way more pychodic than before too, so I still think he is a completee nut job.

[C4 Karura]

Originally Posted by dillydally

I agree with C4 mostly. I thought it was a good chapter (I jump for joy when Karin gave up on sasuke). Although I was dissapoint how blunt the symbolism was, it could of been so much better if it were subtle, but I like the message it gave so I'll forgive that.

The only part of your agrument that I disagree with is the part were you said that Sasuke seems less crazy after this chapter; mainly because even tho he now explain his reasoning, his plan still sound really messed up. Ontop of that Sasuke is also acting way more pychodic than before too, so I still think he is a completee nut job.

No, Sasuke is definitely crazy. I was just saying that now we actually understand how he thinks he's doing the right thing.

[SasukeFallen]

I for one am someone that found the symbolism in this chapter as striking. Though, I do agree when people say that the timing of the reunion seem rushed and misplaced(up until a few chapters back when we saw Naruto head out after Kakashi and Sakura, it still apeared Kishi would have had them make it too late and the reunion would have been held off until a more epic, Madara-involved moment).

Also, as for the repitition of the FV speech(s), it seems almost everyone dosen't get why Kishi didn't come up with something new, thinking he was lazy or they just don't get it. IMO, this was supossed to be symbolic in itself, what was being said wasn't important, but the fact that it was, was important. I helps to show that things are differnt, yet exactly the same.

It's kind of like the whole FV fight is comming full circle and it's a throwback to what happened last time. IMO, it's surving to show that this fight will be that type of decisive battle, do or die(literaly this time). Sasuke's fate will hang on the outcome of this fight. Though, the very fact that the diolouge changed at the end suggest that the outcome will not be the same.(Though this is just a prediction and I could very well be wrong). So that means, IMO, what ever happens, Sasuke won't be just walking away, following the path he had decided before the battle. So that leaves about 2 options I can think up off the top of my head.

1)Sasuke's death.
2)Sasuke set on a path that would lead him to switching sides(Or atleast not the plan to eliminate Konoha.)

My analysis of it and how the rest of the series has played out, I would say Kishi is most likely setting up for #2. I love/hate it. I love it because it would fit most with the Naruto story and wouldn't seem like something Kishi just pulled out of his . That and it would give everything thats happened in shippuden a purpose, I mean if you were gonna have Sasuke die in the end and have everything Naruto beleves in tossed out the windown and ran over by a truck, why make shippuden? Though I hate it because it so very predictable, over used even, and it's not like it would be like finally stitching up an old wound, i'd be like the wound never existed. As you can see, I'm very back and forth, lol.

I personally liked this chapter, The fact that it was all symbolism was a refresher from the usual fight and/or exposition chapters we've had going on for a long time now.

[Nine-TailedSage_Naruto]

Originally Posted by C4 Karura

Ok, but that's still an incredible feat.

You forget this is naruto...People can walk on water and walls,make the moon, and jumo 20 feet in the air....