An Analysis Of The Significance Of Chapter 485

[C4 Karura]

Okay, I'm making this becuase I have several observations about the new chapter which I wouldn't be able to conveniently group any other way. Hopefully you'll enjoy this.

(I'm copying the text of the chapter from one of the spoiler threads, since it would take way too long to type it out myself.)

Originally Posted by Nine-TailedSage_Naruto

Spoiler:

485: Close...and far away...

Cover: Naruto and Sasuke are facing each other

Uzumaki Naruto. Uchiha Sasuke. The drop-out and the elite. Valiance and hatred. A struggle with zero distance between them.
An okay cover. The text on the side kind of reminds you of what the relationship between thier characters was at the beginning of the series, and how much it's changed. Still, it's nothing special.

They finally exchange looks...
Naruto glares at Sasuke

Sasuke glares at Naruto
Taking the opportunity, Kakashi punches Sasuke
Sasuke's sent flying and perfectly lands on his feet
Wow. Since when can Kakashi punch a teenager (who must wiegh at least 175 pounds) 50 feet into the air? Random powerups ftw!

Kakashi: "You have better timing than me...Naruto. I didn't think that even you would be coming..but forget about that, you were a life-saver."

Sakura: "T-Thank you...Naruto"
Naruto: "Sasuke...Sakura's a member of Team 7, just as you are"
Sasuke's eyes are a pale shade: "Former-Team 7...I was"

Kakashi: "You understand how it is now, Naruto. Sasuke's no longer who he was in the past"
Pretty much all things we could tell would happen after last week's cliffhanger. Nothing interesting here.

Naruto: "Sasuke..."
Sasuke: "...What?!"

Naruto: "I heard the truth of Itachi from that guy Tobi! I don't really know whether it's lies or truth...but whatever it is, all that you're doing right now..."

Sakura: "!" (The truth of Itachi...?!)
Naruto: "I get it"
Kakashi: "!"
Sakura: "!?"
Sasuke: "...!"
Sakura finally learns that there's a reason Sasuke's changed so much, even if she doesn't know the details. Plus, we see that Naruto still understands and feels empathy for Sasuke.

Sasuke: "Naruto...I told you this before...how could someone like you, without parents, without a brother, how in the hell could you get me?"
Sasuke scowls at Naruto
Sasuke: "Others should be silent!"
Repeat of some Final Valley dialogue.

Sakura: ! "As if those are the thoughts Naruto regarded you with, Sasuke-kun! Whatever ill that was spoken of you, Naruto had always thought of you as a companion! Not only then but even now..."

Sasuke: "It was just right now....Just right now that I finally took vengeance on Itachi's behalf. I killed just one of Konoha's superiors, right at this spot...a guy called Danzou"
Kakashi: (...What?...That Danzou has been...?!)
Sakura: !
Sasuke: "It's a feeling I've never had. The feeling of the tainted Uchiha being purified-

The feeling of breaking the Uchiha away from the rotted-off world of shinobi-
In a sense, it's what you all of Konoha have always desired, what you've continued to deny the Uchiha since the start-

Just as you all desire, I'll erase the Uchiha from your memories-
By killing all of you, all of Konoha! Severing all those bonds will be that which brings the true revival of the Uchiha!"
Sasuke's explanation is ringing out
YES! Finally, we get an explanation of Sasuke's goal to destroy Konoha. Ever since his speech in Chapter 416, where he explained he's going to kill everyone in Konoha becuase some Konoha officials were the reason his brother was forced to kill the clan, he's been viewed as an irrational nutcase. His brother gave up everything to protect Konoha, and now he's going to honor his brother's memory by destroying it? It's seemed like a really bad case of irrational reasoning, until this. Now, finally him wanting to kill everyone in Konoha makes sense. The once-great Uchiha name has been tarnished beyond repair, and so he's going to kill all of Konoha, allowing all those things that ruined the Uchiha to fade into forgotten history. Does "restoring the Uchiha name" justify the mass-murder of thousands, if not millions, of innocent citizens? No. But now, for the first time, we can actually see how he thinks he's honoring his brother by killing Konoha. Kishi should've had him give this speech 30, if not 70, chapters ago.

Sakura: "Sasuke-kun..."

Kakashi: (...All that hatred piling up over history has formed Sasuke into who he is right now... it may not be clear to Naruto and Sakura that Sasuke's a victim of that era, but they feel it right through their very skin. That's the reason why...)

Naruto does Kage bunshin
Kakashi: "This is my duty, Naruto...Sakura. Disappear from this place"
Sakura: "But...Kakashi-sensei!"
Kakashi: "If you're here, you'll see something you don't want to....Go now!"
Sakura: "I...!"

Kakashi starts walking: "Sasuke won't die from the embedded poison you learned from Shizune that you put into your kunai...Orochimaru implanted him with the antibiotic resistance. Besides, [you] should already know how feel"

Sasuke prepares Chidori and starts walking
Karin: (Sasuke...I may have healed you...but this is it...no...I'm through...through with Sasuke...)
I think my site put it better: "Sasuke... I may have healed you a little, but this is too much... Actually... Forget it, I'm done with you..." This was the second-greatest moment in the chapter. For someone who spent two weeks debating that Karin wasn't a blind Sasuke fangirl, and she's wouldn't actually stay with him after he stabbed her, those two panels came as a moment of victory.

Naruto: "Kakashi-sensei, so you mean to...kill Sasuke?"

Kakashi: "...Go!"
The Kage Bunshin Naruto pins Kakashi's arms behind his back
Seriously... When Sakura disregarded Kakashi's orders, everyone was all, "How dare she do that?!" But I have yet to see a single person complain that Naruto ignored Kakashi's orders..

The real Naruto starts walking while making Rasengan
Sasuke also starts making Chidori on his left hand and starts walking: "There's an opening now! I won't be going easy on you!"

Kakashi: "Wait, Naruto!"
Sakura: "Naruto!"

They clash right in front of one another

Naruto: (Sasuke, maybe...maybe me and you were opposites...)
I know my site put it better than the "We're opposites..." line. ("It's funny, Sasuke... You and I could've easily... Been standing in each other's shoes right now..."). The "opposites" translation convinced a lot of people that them switching attacks was a literal event. It wasn't. It's a symbolic moment, that stands to show Naruto and Sasuke could've easily taken the other person's path. After all, just look at Chapter 49. If Orochimaru had decided to put the curse mark in Naruto instead, the whole series would've changed.

Let's imagine it: Kakashi, seeing that Naruto has the curse mark, decides that he has to personally oversee Naruto's training, to make sure he doesn't think about joining Orochimaru. This leaves Sasuke without a sensei, and he meets Jiriaya by chance. (After all, it was only chance that Naruto and Jiriaya met at the Hot Springs.) Meanwhile, Kakashi decides that it's a good idea to teach Naruto the Chidori. Even if it's not his Chakra type, he still might be able to learn it, and it's a powerful jutsu that he'll need for the Third Stage of the Chunin Exams. The curse mark prevents Naruto from fighting Gaara when he goes wild in the forest, so Sasuke must defeat him with something he learned from Jiriaya. Jiriaya takes Sasuke along with him to find Tsunade, so he never meets Itachi, and doesn't get obbsesed with vengeance. Kakashi and others protect Naruto from the Itachi team. Jiriaya teaches Rasengan to Sasuke while they're finding Tsunade. When they return, Naruto is frusterated that Sasuke is still, no matter how hard he tries, stronger than him. They fight, which Kakashi interrupts, but Naruto sees that Chidori isn't nearly as strong as the Rasengan. Fed up with his inability to beat Sasuke, and frusterated with his own weakness, he finally goes over to gain power from Orochimaru. Yes, he's giving up his dream of Hokage, but he's now convinced that he'll never gain enough power from Konoha to do so, and besides, this is the village that hated and traumatized him for the first 12 years of his life. What have they ever done for him?

Imagine this path continuing all the way to the current manga, and it's not so hard to imagine that they could've been standing where the other person is right now, Naruto determined to destroy Konoha for hating him for no reason all his life, and Sasuke desperate to stop him. I think this is one of the greatest symbolic moments in the series, definitly in the top 5.

Naruto: "Rasengan!"

Sasuke: "Chidori!'

決着はつかず。。。
The conclusion isn't settled...
------------------------------------------
The fading to white as they look at each other is a definite callback to Chapter 233.

Naruto and Sasuke look at each other

Naruto places a hand on his belly "I know how you feel...in the past everyone in the village hated me...
And the reason for that is the Kyuubi inside of me. ...in the past I hated everyone in the village as well
and I sometimes thought about revenge too...
If I held on to that...probably I would have thought terrible things like you...
I thought about who was a friend to me... I thought I didn't need bonds. And I met you and Iruka-sensei"
Sasuke: "..."
Naruto: "I knew you were always alone
Being just like you brought peace to me...and soon after I talked to you...and I was so happy!
But after that I stopped. You could do anything...and I was jealous of you. I decided you were my rival!
You became my goal.
No matter what, I held onto that bond. Team 7 started going on missions together.
I wanted to become strong like you. But I was always behind you, chasing your back"
Sasuke: "..."


Naruto, with a big smile on his face
Naruto: "I was so happy to meet you"
This whole speech was pretty much copied word-for-word from the Final Valley fight. What Kishi was thinking by reusing it, I have no idea.

Sasuke: "Naruto it's too late...you talked to me...but now it's too late to change me!!
I will completely wipe out you, the villagers and everyone else!!
At this point, your choice...killing me becoming the hero of the village!!
Or being killed by me, becoming a loser!!
Why is Sasuke talking to Naruto is if as long as Naruto decides to kill Sasuke, it's going to happen? Isn't Sasuke way too prideful for that?

Naruto looks at him squarely in the face, he decided
Naruto: "I won't be a loser against you! And I won't kill you and become an hero either! (my decision) is neither of them!!"
This is what I was worried would happen. I've been hoping for a long time that Kishi doesn't take the easy way out and have Sasuke be changed by Naruto, but it looks like that's what going to happen...

Chidori VS Rasengan

Anyway, this was an okay chapter. The good parts were really good, and the bad parts were only moderately bad.

I hope you enjoyed this. If you think I made some good, interesting observations, feel free to give me some rep. After all, that's what rep is for, isn't it?

[C4 Karura]

Ok, seriously? No replies?

[mrsticky005]

Tumbleweed.
Crickets chirp.
Awkward Silence.

[Wooster]

Do you really want me to reply? I don't know if I have the energy for this.

I didn't think the chapter was all that and a bag of chips. I'll read through your arguements and respond if the mood takes me.

[Twisterty]

Honestly, i wanted them to fight and a make it like a more intese Final Valley like fight, but it looks like that he might try to change sasuke just like he died Pien/Nagato. To badd >_>

[Defcon]

Tell me, why would Orochimaru ever give (big) powers to Naruto? Orochimaru trained Sasuke so he could eventually take over his body. But yeah Naruto could've been in Sasuke's place but by taking a different path. Still .. With Akatsuki hunting Naruto I doubt he would get far without proper training. He was protected by one of the three great ninjas remember ..

[C4 Karura]

@Defcon: Orochimaru is also one of the Sannin. Oro would've been confident that he could keep Naruto under control, just as was with Sasuke.

[Nine-TailedSage_Naruto]

i posted this a while back in another thread

Spoiler:

it was a really nice symbolism of how naruto and sasuke could be in each others shoes had things gone just a little differently....the expression on sasuke face was a nice touch too...

as a few ppl before me mentioned....i dont think oro's curse mark would be the turning point for naruto...
Because unlike sasuke...naruto always had all the power he needed...he WAS the ultimate weapon...he dint some stupid curse mark...piss him off enough and he could probably destroyed the whole village on his own..

i think that for naruto the turning point(not good-bad this is a bad-good turning point ) was iruka telling mizuki that he dint think naruto was a beast and that he though naruto was one of kind etc
now remember how pissed off naruto had got when mizuki had said that he would pour all his anger into the scroll and destroy the village because thats how beasts were and iruka had said yes(which made naruto think that even iruka thought that he was a beast and even the one person he admired hated him...which now that i think about it...was what had happened to gaara). At that instance if naruto had just ran away got angry and not waited for iruka to finish talking...then he would probably have been siting in a corner somewhere and thinking about how much he hated the village and eventually might even have had released the fox in his anger....but that dint happen...after naruto heard what iruka had to say he realized that were was someone who cared about him...and thats when he gave must have given up his thoughts of revenge...

[Defcon]

Originally Posted by C4 Karura

@Defcon: Orochimaru is also one of the Sannin. Oro would've been confident that he could keep Naruto under control, just as was with Sasuke.

Oro doesn't have any interest in Naruto, his objective is to collect all jutsu, therefor he needs the sharingan and a body that can control the eye to its full potential.

You could say he has some interest in the kyuubi, but then again, he was planning to deliver Naruto to Danzo anyway. Remember the eyes he collected for Danzo and the DNA he recuperated from the first hokage; just so Danzo could control the kyuubi. If he wanted a tailed beast, he could've gone after Gaara in the first place - he was working together with the Sand when he attacked Konoha.


And yes I know Orochimaru is one of the Sannin, I was referring to the fact that there is no one else who could've trained Naruto better than Jiraiya himself at the time.

@Nine-TailedSage_Naruto, that could've been a realistic alternative for Naruto.

[C4 Karura]

Nice posts, everyone. Anyway, I guess you guys are right about Oro not wanting Naruto and Naruto's turning point coming much earlier in the series. I was just trying to make an example of how one event could've changed everything. Still, if just a few events in Part 1 had happened differently, they really could've been in the other person's shoes at that moment.

[Defcon]

Jup, that could've been the case. Nice post btw.. but I can't give you "rep" for it because I don't have it or don't know how to give it heh. :P

[C4 Karura]

You don't have to give me rep, but do you see the scale beneath the avatar to the left on each post? Click on that, select whether to Up or Down Rep them, and then leave a comment explaining why you did it. (It's best if you leave your name as well.) Don't abuse the system, though, or you can get in trouble.

[Narutorious]

Wow. Since when can Kakashi punch a teenager (who must wiegh at least 175 pounds) 50 feet into the air? Random powerups ftw!

Just to comment on this, you are overestimated how big these people actually are, I'm sure Sasuke is only about 53 kg in part 2, which when convert is only about 125 lbs.

[C4 Karura]

Ok, but that's still an incredible feat.

[philippe]

Jiraya training Naruto wasn`t an accident at all. The first time they met, Jiraya knew exatly that he wants to train Naruto

Chapter 143, page 4,5...9...

[C4 Karura]

I looked at your references, and I don't get how they're related to your post at all. Jiriaya meeting Naruto was an accident, and he definitely didn't want to train Naruto when they first met.

[philippe]

OMG, you can`t be serious.

Ch 143, page 5...Jiraya to Kakashi: Let me take care of Naruto.

CH143, page 9..again Jiraya to Kakashi: Before the real chuunin exam starts, please leave Naruto to me. (This proves, that it is the time when Kakashi was with Sasuke before the chuunin exams)

I don`t get, what you don`t understand,

Jiraya wanted to train Naruto all the time. He knew about the Kyubi, and off course that he is Minatos son so he wanted to train him and them meeting was far from an accident.

[C4 Karura]

Look at Chapters 90-91. (Oh, and I guess I missed those lines where he was talking about Naruto. Still, this is after he's met Naruto and decided to train him.)

[philippe]

I know those chapters. And? That doesn`t say anything about them accidentaly meeting. If you are pointing to the fact, that Jiraya wasn`t all like...Ooooh Naruto can I please train you...so it does make sense, since we know how Naruto was back then. If Jiraya was like that, Naruto would become to confident and anoying. But Jiraya knew all the time what he has to do.

If that meeting was an accident, how would he know right away that he is Minatos son and has the Kyuubi inside him? He wouldn`t. He went there with a certain goal. He was observing Narutos training before they got to do some talking.

[C4 Karura]

-_-... Read the chapters. He has no idea who Naruto is. It's entirely chance that they meet. It's only upon seeing the seal on Naruto's stomach that he realizes who he is.