When Bears Attack or Kishi Please Stop

[Wooster]

Yes I stole the theme of the title from Rocky and Bullwinkle. What are you going to do about it?

A small spoiler about Chapter 482 ahead, so leave if you don't want to know.

So Karin was attacked by bear during the Chunin Exams and Sasuke saved her, huh? I don't really care about this little flashback in and of itself, but Kishimoto you need to stop the retcon. I am going to use this little example to explain how problematic all this visiting of the past can be.

First of all, I don't recall seeing Karin before in the Chunin exams, at some point we pretty much saw all the members.


Secondly, when did Sasuke have time to save Karin, it must have been after the attack by the Sound ninja and before Kabuto found them. However, didn't team 7 rest in that time, weren't they worried that there was no one else left? Maybe Sasuke did his daring act of rescue between leaving to get water and returning to save Sakura and Naruto from Kabuto. The day's never done for our little emo super hero.


Finally, did Sasuke just use the Lion's Barrage on the bear? I thought he invented that during the preliminary exams. I thought that was supposed to illustrate how the genius Sasuke could invent new moves on the fly. Your secret is out Sasuke, we now know you practice new moves on bears before you bring them out in battle. I feel sorry for the bear hit by Kirin.

Kishimoto could have easily had the first meeting between Karin and Sasuke been when they were with Orochiumaru. Sasuke was there for three years. He could at least had it occur during some unnamed C-rank mission, but instead he was too clever by half, and bungled the story.

Now in this little journey to the past, the space-time continuum is relatively intact, but that isn't the case in other instants. Danzo's character was pretty well developed and his motivations were quite clear. Nope, he actually just had a friendly rivalry with the Third. Uh, okay.


The retcon that has reverberated the most through the universe is Itachi being good. Itachi almost killed Kakashi and Sasuke with Tsukuyomi. Nope, he knew that the missing Tsunade would return and heal them. Itachi thinks Sasuke is worthless, so he tells him to live in fear. Nope, he also tells him to develop the Mangekyo sharingan and use his hate to defeat him. Oh, but don't hate so much to become an insane murderer. Whoops, he forget to tell Sasuke that one. Sasuke first used sharingan to save Naruto during the battle with Haku. Nope, he actually used it long ago against Itachi.

The second worst retcon because it's so convoluted is the continually changing story of how the Nine-Tailed Fox was sealed in Naruto. It was all quite straightforward. There were some inconsistencies when the Third used it, but fortunately there was no retcon then. Except for this fun fact: Aren't all four previous Hokages sufferings unending battles in the belly of the reaper? Sucks to be them, at least the Third only has to fight Orochimaru's arms. But there was the Jiraiya explanation. Oh what a mess that was. Then Minato appears in Naruto's mind.


Now I will say I enjoyed Naruto meeting his father as much as anyone, but couldn't it have been done in a mysterious way like Kakashi and his dead dad. How do you trap a piece of yourself that is aware of current events? It would have made more sense if Minato was only aware of the past.

I could go on and on, about the problems of Itachi being good and only half of the Nine Tails sealed in Naruto, but I think I've made my point. It's dangerous to travel to the past for the author as much as the characters. I think the future is all right now, Kishimoto should be satisfied. Kishimoto better be careful with this time travel or he will cross his history streams, then there might be a full protonic reversal. (How do like that mixed movie metaphor?)

Now here's something we hope you really like:
Edit: Apparently people don't like Ghostbuster, so how about a more relevant '80s movie link or two:
Ghostbusters!

[Leafy]

Ghostbusters?, but yes kishi should have thought more about the flashback Karin had.

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by leaf777

Ghostbusters?, but yes kishi should have thought more about the flashback Karin had.

It's in reference to the full protonic reversal. That and the randomness of Rocky and Bullwinkle.

Kishimoto needs to only use flashbacks he has planned from the beginning. For example, Madara and the First Hokage fight is a great telling of the past. Kishimoto has subtly hinted at this since the battle at the Final Valley. Clearly he knew about how he was planning this long before the reader did. An author can surprise the reader with the past, but he shouldn't surprise himself. That's why sucks to be a writer, you already know what has, is and will happen. At least you should.

[Wooster]

There everyone happy. Bear reference added.

[Parak111]

The point where Sasuke saved Karin, must be where he went to get food or something after the Sound Ninja's attack. It must have happened before he saw Kabuto stopping Naruto from opening the scroll.


As for the Lion's Barrage, he may have invented it way back then. And it's not necessary for Karin to have been shown. Kishimoto's just filling holes in time.

[Lawliet.S]

Even if the flashback was different Karin's flashback wasn't needed, it would have been better if she had died without one. Knowing that Karin knew Sasuke before he recruited her made no sense.

[Hidden Ninja45]

I thought Sasuke technically had the lion's barrage after he fought Rock Lee. I thought he got that move from Lee by using the Sharigan. Meh. That episode was too long ago. I don't remember it entirely.


I normally like flashbacks that can be thought of completely differently because of something that happened to the present. The thing with Karin being in the Forest of Death was a little sloppy, but I think it was interesting.

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by Parak111

The point where Sasuke saved Karin, must be where he went to get food or something after the Sound Ninja's attack. It must have happened before he saw Kabuto stopping Naruto from opening the scroll.


As for the Lion's Barrage, he may have invented it way back then. And it's not necessary for Karin to have been shown. Kishimoto's just filling holes in time.

Yep, I imagine that's the only time it could have happened. Also, that and why else would Sasuke not mention he found other ninja. It wouldn't have been important once Kabuto was there.

Originally Posted by Hidden Ninja45

I thought Sasuke technically had the lion's barrage after he fought Rock Lee. I thought he got that move from Lee by using the Sharigan. Meh. That episode was too long ago. I don't remember it entirely.


I normally like flashbacks that can be thought of completely differently because of something that happened to the present. The thing with Karin being in the Forest of Death was a little sloppy, but I think it was interesting.

Sasuke copied Lee's technique, but the ending was supposed to be new.

Karin having a flashback is not a problem, but it should not have occured during the chunin exam. If Kishimoto wanted it to be before Sasuke joined Orochimaru, he could have easily made it some unknown mission outside the village.

[NarutoUzumaki12]

I hated Karin's flashback

[mrsticky005]

I think "Rocky" appears in Volume 6. Rock Lee saves that crazy squirrel thinking that
someone put a letter bomb on the poor guy. But what really happened was that Rocky
was developing a brand new jet pack and was testing it out. Too bad Rock Lee destroyed the prototype...

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by mrsticky005

I think "Rocky" appears in Volume 6. Rock Lee saves that crazy squirrel thinking that
someone put a letter bomb on the poor guy. But what really happened was that Rocky
was developing a brand new jet pack and was testing it out. Too bad Rock Lee destroyed the prototype...

Alright hotshot, which episode did Bullwinkle appear in?

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by Wooster

Alright hotshot, which episode did Bullwinkle appear in?

Bullwinkle never appeared but in the Hidan/Kakuzu arc they had
his cousin "LeeRoy"

[rm3991]

. . . . I don't know exactly what you guys are talking about now, but I think maybe Kishi will explain all of the 'errors' later. It's not like him to make mistakes, ya know.

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by mrsticky005

Bullwinkle never appeared but in the Hidan/Kakuzu arc they had
his cousin "LeeRoy"

Aha, I got it. Madara is really Snidely Whiplash. That's why he wears the mask.

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by rm3991

. . . . I don't know exactly what you guys are talking about now, but I think maybe Kishi will explain all of the 'errors' later. It's not like him to make mistakes, ya know.

I hope not. The more Kishimoto explains the worse he gets. Let me use an analogy. In a classics Simpsons episode Homer travels back in time. He kills an insect and screws up the future. So he keeps going back to try to fix the future and always fails. He gets so frustrated he goes back to the past and kills everything he sees. That is Kishimoto. He needs to be happy with the future he created and not worry about the fact that there are no doughnuts, especially with those delicious "raindrops".

[rm3991]

HahA! great analogy but maybe Kishi already had a plan before he showed us all that flashback, so really, he's not going back in time over 'n over again to fix it because, in reality, there never was a problem. at least I hope so. it's not like professionals to make mistakes that glaringly obvious. the flashbacks give us some insight of the characters (but I agree that I am at a loss for the sasuke-karin flashback. I'm pretty sure it was said that their meating in the forest gettin orichmaru escapees was one of their first meatings) the only thing I can think of is that it wasn't sasuke in the chunin exam that saved her? but that's impossible cuz there was no other Uchiha alive to be there . . .

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by Wooster

Aha, I got it. Madara is really Snidely Whiplash. That's why he wears the mask.

You figured it out.

Originally Posted by Wooster

I hope not. The more Kishimoto explains the worse he gets. Let me use an analogy. In a classics Simpsons episode Homer travels back in time. He kills an insect and screws up the future. So he keeps going back to try to fix the future and always fails. He gets so frustrated he goes back to the past and kills everything he sees. That is Kishimoto. He needs to be happy with the future he created and not worry about the fact that there are no doughnuts, especially with those delicious "raindrops".

Great episode.

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by mrsticky005

You figured it out.



Great episode.

From henceforth this will be Wooster's Rule: Whoever argues that Madara is really... has already lost the argument.

It was. It's based on the "The Sound of Thunder" by Ray Bradbury.

[C4 Karura]

I will agree with most of the retcon situations, but the Karin one makes sense in the story line.

There's an unseen gap of two or three days between when Sasuke and Naruto wake up during the Sound Ninja incident and when we see the scene where Naruto contemplates opening the scroll. The Karin incident could've happened sometime early in that period, so Sasuke can be wondering a few days after that if people are still left in the forest.

About him using "Lion's Barrage" against the bear: There's nothing in his battle against Yoroi suggesting it's the first time he's used the move. It's just the first time readers see him use it.

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by C4 Karura

I will agree with most of the retcon situations, but the Karin one makes sense in the story line.

There's an unseen gap of two or three days between when Sasuke and Naruto wake up during the Sound Ninja incident and when we see the scene where Naruto contemplates opening the scroll. The Karin incident could've happened sometime early in that period, so Sasuke can be wondering a few days after that if people are still left in the forest.

About him using "Lion's Barrage" against the bear: There's nothing in his battle against Yoroi suggesting it's the first time he's used the move. It's just the first time readers see him use it.

Could you point out where Karin was during the chunin exam? I must have missed her when Kishimoto showed all the participants. Also, I think it's quite clear they only rested after the Sound ninja incident. The Lion's Barrage was supposed to be original, it's not if he has used it before.