In Defense of Danzo

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by 3littlepigs

If he really did that then he's beyond being a genius...he can see the future. Otherwise there was no way of knowing that Sarutobi would have Oro as an apprentice and that Oro would betray Konoha etc...if Hashirama and Tobirama chose Sarutobi is because they believed he was the right person to ensure Konoha's safety and prosperity. Danzou was just jelous...

Well, I don't think he predicted Orochimaru, but he may not have seen any ninja to match the first and second Hokage. Or perhaps he saw the relative strength of Konoha decrease as other nations copied the secret village per nation alliance. Also, I don't think Danzo knows how to be jealous.

Originally Posted by 3littlepigs

When confronted with the truth he's always complaining about past situtations and saying how he's the best and what he could do /could've done to make sure those things don't happen/didn't happen.

Danzo points out other's poor decisons, when he is trying to convince others to follow his path. I don't see him complaining about himself being mistreated. But really I don't think either Madara and Danzo are much of the complaining type. Naruto may hate people who lie to themselves, I hate people who whine.

Originally Posted by 3littlepigs

Tsunade might be the weakest in "power" but I don't think any other Hokage could've saved that many people during Pain's attack (I mean if Pain hadn't revived everyone at the end). I seriously doubt he knew Pain would revive everyone...I'm pretty sure he was counting on Naruto releasing the seal and losing control to the Kyuubi.

Sorry, I wasn't talking about power as in skill, there's no doubt in that sense she's strong. She is one of the Sannin, and certainly the best medical ninja, with the possible exception of Kabuto. What I meant is as a leader. Tsunade is very emotional, which no doubt really rubs Danzo the wrong way. She also lets Naruto do whatever he wants becasue she believes in him. Which is all well and good, even I believe in Naruto, but Naruto has always been reckless. I think Tsunade may be as reckless as Naruto, and thats not a good quality for a leader. It is also completely opposite of Danzo's patience and practicality.

I don't think Danzo knew what was going to happen at all with Pain except that he was looking for Naruto. Not mention his ANBU members would have only helped with the initial attack. The only person besides Naruto that could have defeated Pain, would be Danzo, and there was no way that Danzo was going to reveal all of his power. How could he control Naruto later?

Originally Posted by deidara330

Fuu and Torune were captured by Madara. He likely knew that would happen, but rather than retreat, he sent out Fuu and Torune and prepared himself for battle. He sacrificed them, believing that in doing so he would buy himself the time to discover Madara's secrets and kill Madara.

I know I already commeted before on this, but I can't believe I let this slip by. I am suppose to be the consumate Danzo defender, now he is going to punish me.

Danzo didn't sacrifice Fu and Torone, he said 'I'm going to release the seal on my right arm. Fu,Torune cover me." Now this could be some secret ninja code for "Attack all out, I am going to drink some tea", but I think this means Danzo was going to fight Madara himself. If your still not convinced try this quote: "It's Madara...We have no idea what he can do. Be careful." I almost can't believe Danzo said this, its almost loving. He must really respect Fu and Torone. It's clearly Fu and Torune's fault they were captured, killed or what happens when Madara sucks in non-friendlies. Why did they fight Madara in close combat? That's certainly not what Danzo told them to do.

Secondly, how do you retreat from Madara? He just needs to go into his twilight zone and pop up where ever you retreated to, which is why I assume Danzo did not try to retreat.

[3littlepigs]

Originally Posted by Wooster

Well, I don't think he predicted Orochimaru, but he may not have seen any ninja to match the first and second Hokage. Or perhaps he saw the relative strength of Konoha decrease as other nations copied the secret village per nation alliance. Also, I don't think Danzo knows how to be jealous.

Other nations started copying the 1 village per nation before Danzou was even born and as a kid (genin to be more precise) there's no way he would've had access to important info about Konoha's overall strength when compared to other countries. Sarutobi was chosen really young so the way I see it Danzou just didn't consider him fit just because he thinks to highly of himself and he always thought he could do better. Then came everything else with Oro etc just luck proving his point otherwise what did he have to back up his complaints towards Sarutobi? Nothing else, really all the 3 Ninja wars weren't caused by the 3rd....

Originally Posted by Wooster

Danzo points out other's poor decisons, when he is trying to convince others to follow his path. I don't see him complaining about himself being mistreated. But really I don't think either Madara and Danzo are much of the complaining type. Naruto may hate people who lie to themselves, I hate people who whine.

Exactly! he complains about things that he thinks wouldn't have happened if he had been Hokage instead of the 3rd but some things are meant to happen no matter who's the leader (Madara's use of the Kyuubi 16 yrs ago?). True, they usually don't "whine" but they try and make others feel sorry for them or try and make up excuses for their actions/decision...really no different from Sasuke in that aspect. LOL true Naruto hates people who lie to themselves..and yes I also don't like Sasuke 'cause he whines about his fate so much!

Originally Posted by Wooster

Sorry, I wasn't talking about power as in skill, there's no doubt in that sense she's strong. She is one of the Sannin, and certainly the best medical ninja, with the possible exception of Kabuto. What I meant is as a leader. Tsunade is very emotional, which no doubt really rubs Danzo the wrong way. She also lets Naruto do whatever he wants becasue she believes in him. Which is all well and good, even I believe in Naruto, but Naruto has always been reckless. I think Tsunade may be as reckless as Naruto, and thats not a good quality for a leader. It is also completely opposite of Danzo's patience and practicality.

I'm going to agree with you on that one..Tsunade is very emotional and tends to go easy on Naruto but at least she doesn't want to kill him to get the Kyuubi from him. So far I haven't seen Danzou complain about Minato and since he likes people who sacrifice themselves for Konoha's sake then shouldn't he respect Minato's decision of sealing the Kyuubi inside Naruto?

Originally Posted by Wooster

I don't think Danzo knew what was going to happen at all with Pain except that he was looking for Naruto. Not mention his ANBU members would have only helped with the initial attack. The only person besides Naruto that could have defeated Pain, would be Danzo, and there was no way that Danzo was going to reveal all of his power. How could he control Naruto later?

As of last chapter we know he's after the Kyuubi and like I said before there's no way to take the Kyuubi from Naruto unless he releases the seal or he has Gedo Mazou (which Madara will never give to Danzou). So even if he didn't know about Pain reviving everyone he did know the leader of Akatsuki would most likely destroy the village and injure Tsunade (if not kill her) but I'm sure since he's such a "genius" he knew Pa and Naruto would found out what was going in Konoha sonner or later. I wouldn't be surprised if he did want Naruto to lose control to the Kyuubi...
If Naruto releases the seal the Kyuubi would be free, Danzou has all those sharingans and the 1st's DNA to try and control the Kyuubi himself...he wouldn't have to worry about controlling Naruto after that.

[Wooster]

I think we are agreeing enough that to continue to argue over the minutia probably isn't productive. So I will let you have the last word.

I do find it interesting that Danzo hasn't had anything bad to say about Minato, and he seemed content enough with the third Hokage. I think he just thinks Tsunade is a disaster, which is why it's interesting that he didn't try to stop her from being Hokage. Maybe he expected her to be different she was very different after her brother and Dan died. Perhaps he expected her to have harden or at least be easy to influence. So clearly Tsunade's poor leadership is all Naruto's fault for making her believe in something again.

[3littlepigs]

Originally Posted by Wooster

I think we are agreeing enough that to continue to argue over the minutia probably isn't productive. So I will let you have the last word.

I do find it interesting that Danzo hasn't had anything bad to say about Minato, and he seemed content enough with the third Hokage. I think he just thinks Tsunade is a disaster, which is why it's interesting that he didn't try to stop her from being Hokage. Maybe he expected her to be different she was very different after her brother and Dan died. Perhaps he expected her to have harden or at least be easy to influence. So clearly Tsunade's poor leadership is all Naruto's fault for making her believe in something again.

LOL That's fine let's leave it at that....although I really don't think Tsunade's been such a disaster.

[deidara330]

Originally Posted by Wooster

I know I already commeted before on this, but I can't believe I let this slip by. I am suppose to be the consumate Danzo defender, now he is going to punish me.

Danzo didn't sacrifice Fu and Torone, he said 'I'm going to release the seal on my right arm. Fu,Torune cover me." Now this could be some secret ninja code for "Attack all out, I am going to drink some tea", but I think this means Danzo was going to fight Madara himself.

Danzo knows Madara's reputation. He would've known they would lose. And had he retreated, they would've survived. He, for some reason, believed that he could fight Madara alone and win. He sacrificed Fuu and Torune to do that. I'm not saying his intentions were evil or anything like that. I'm saying he thought only he could defeat Madara, using his own power. He couldn't have relied on anyone else to do it for him.

If your still not convinced try this quote: "It's Madara...We have no idea what he can do. Be careful." I almost can't believe Danzo said this, its almost loving. He must really respect Fu and Torone.

Right, telling someone to be careful is a sign of respect. Even though many people say this to people they work with when they really expect the person to lose or even die. You shouldn't fight an enemy you don't know the powers of, especially one with a reputation preceeding them such as Madara. He was overconfident that Izanagi would help him win. I don't see why he would need to go into battle if he expected them to win. He knew they would lose. And naturally, in their world to lose usually means to be killed by the winner. No self-respecting villain leaves his enemy alive. Additionally, he didn't have any faith that they or anyone else in ROOT could've defeated Madara, otherwise he could've simply retreated, gathered more information, and attacked later.

It's clearly Fu and Torune's fault they were captured, killed or what happens when Madara sucks in non-friendlies. Why did they fight Madara in close combat? That's certainly not what Danzo told them to do.

It's not as though they had a choice. They certainly weren't going to attempt to fight a mass teleporter at long range, and they clearly would've needed to distract Madara for Danzo to release the seal.

Secondly, how do you retreat from Madara? He just needs to go into his twilight zone and pop up where ever you retreated to, which is why I assume Danzo did not try to retreat.

Well, if it was impossible for them to retreat anyways, there's no real point in attempting to fight him. Plus, without prior knowledge, they could simply have had one person distract Madara while the other two escaped. Retreat was the best course of action, because if Madara were fighting seriously, they would all have died. In an escape attempt, with Madara acting in character, at least one person might've survived. Danzo had to have known Fuu and Torune could never beat Madara and sacrificed them so he could unseal his arm and beat Madara himself.

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by deidara330

Well, if it was impossible for them to retreat anyways, there's no real point in attempting to fight him. Plus, without prior knowledge, they could simply have had one person distract Madara while the other two escaped. Retreat was the best course of action, because if Madara were fighting seriously, they would all have died. In an escape attempt, with Madara acting in character, at least one person might've survived. Danzo had to have known Fuu and Torune could never beat Madara and sacrificed them so he could unseal his arm and beat Madara himself.

It was impossible for them to retreat, so that's why they fought. Yes,Fu and Torune had to give Danzo enough time release the seal on his arm. They chose to sacrifice themselves to give Danzo enough time. I just think delay tatctics would have served the same purpose. Also, they probably thought Madara was after Danzo, when really Madara just wanted to remove them from the battle field. That way Madara could pit Sasuke vs. Danzo.
Sure many times Danzo makes sacrifice his men, but at this point, I don't think this is what he wanted. These were two of his best.

Originally Posted by 3littlepigs

LOL That's fine let's leave it at that....although I really don't think Tsunade's been such a disaster.

I am not saying she is, but Danzo has only tried to undermine her. Of course, one could use the pratical, stupid arguement on this. Kishimoto just hadn't invented Danzo before Tsunade.

[deidara330]

Originally Posted by Wooster

It was impossible for them to retreat, so that's why they fought. Yes,Fu and Torune had to give Danzo enough time release the seal on his arm. They chose to sacrifice themselves to give Danzo enough time. I just think delay tatctics would have served the same purpose. Also, they probably thought Madara was after Danzo, when really Madara just wanted to remove them from the battle field. That way Madara could pit Sasuke vs. Danzo.
Sure many times Danzo makes sacrifice his men, but at this point, I don't think this is what he wanted. These were two of his best.

My point is that there was a chance that they could've escaped, but they didn't Danzo only sacrifices his men when he believes there's no other way, and on occasion it happens that there is another way, but he doesn't come to that conclusion because he thinks he can solve the problem alone.

[RockyL]

In my personal opinion he is not a "bad guy". Yes some of his methods are twisted but he is trying to save his village although he sometimes goes about it the wrong way.

[3littlepigs]

Originally Posted by Wooster

I am not saying she is, but Danzo has only tried to undermine her. Of course, one could use the pratical, stupid arguement on this. Kishimoto just hadn't invented Danzo before Tsunade.

Sorry I misunderstood you then...

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by 3littlepigs

Sorry I misunderstood you then...

No worries.

Originally Posted by deidara330

My point is that there was a chance that they could've escaped, but they didn't Danzo only sacrifices his men when he believes there's no other way, and on occasion it happens that there is another way, but he doesn't come to that conclusion because he thinks he can solve the problem alone.

I still don't think you can escape Madara. He did keep eight Konoha ninja from reaching Sasuke, but to each their own. Cheers.

Originally Posted by rocklee1314

In my personal opinion he is not a "bad guy". Yes some of his methods are twisted but he is trying to save his village although he sometimes goes about it the wrong way.

Well I would say he is not evil. He is a "bad guy" in that he is opposed to the protagonist, Naruto. Anyway, thanks for reading

[Wooster]

Sorry to bump this thread, but multiple threads are being created that can easily be covered here. Nonetheless, I will append some comments here from recent chapters. So Chapter 481 spoilers ahead.

Appendix: Danzo's Death

The recent chapter shows that Danzo had a rivalry with Hiruzen when they were both young. Apparently, Danzo was always a step behind Hiruzen, mostly notably in sacrificing himself for the others long ago. While it is true, Danzo was too frightened to volunteer readily, I think it would be a mistake to consider this Danzo's typical motivation. He was very young and actually had emotion then. In other words, nothing like the stoic dispassionate Danzo of the present. The important thing to take away is that Danzo followed the Second's advice not to throw his life away needlessly. You can call this cowardice if you like, but Danzo is extremely practical in that way.

In no way, does the flashback mean Danzo agreed with Hiruzen (all the evidence for that can be seen in the first post). However, as I just said Danzo will retreat when necessary. Similarly, he will admit when he is defeated. He doesn't thrash out in anger at his failure. In this case, comparing his life to Hiruzen he fell short. He simply regrets his life goals (protecting the village) did not suceed.

None of this means you should change your opinion of Danzo. He is still the same ruthless underhanded shinobi he always was. He follows the old shinobi way like Granny Chiyo and Zabuza. This way is opposed to Naruto. If you like his ruthlessness and cunning then go ahead and appreciate him. But don't like him because you feel sorry for him or think he was misunderstood. Danzo was not misunderstood by the others, they were right. Danzo wouldn't want your sympathy, so you don't need to give it to him. Now if you're upset that an great villian was killed needlessly, that's something to be upset about. A Konoha civil war between Danzo and Naruto would have been great.

[mrsticky005]

A Konoha war between Naruto and Danzo would be great indeed. Since we are supposed
to sympthatize with Naruto it would be a good way to reinforce that sympathy.

[deidara330]

I think now that the new chapter has come out, I'll use it to reinforce my original point, which was that Danzo always wanted peace for the Leaf Village. He just didn't think anyone but he himself could bring it. He wanted to do it all alone. He had good intentions, but his actions weren't quite so good.

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by mrsticky005

A Konoha war between Naruto and Danzo would be great indeed. Since we are supposed
to sympthatize with Naruto it would be a good way to reinforce that sympathy.

Well maybe, but also because Naruto wouldn't be completley in the right. That's much more interesting than Sasuke's turning to the "dark side."

Originally Posted by deidara330

I think now that the new chapter has come out, I'll use it to reinforce my original point, which was that Danzo always wanted peace for the Leaf Village. He just didn't think anyone but he himself could bring it. He wanted to do it all alone. He had good intentions, but his actions weren't quite so good.

I don't know if did it alone, he did have all the Foundation. His intentions would have to be judge against the results, since he died we will never know. I suppose his idea to become Hokage was a bad idea, it let Madara get to him. What was it Madara said something about keeping his roots buried. Certainly Danzo actions are harsh, but other's intention haven't work out so well either, particularly Tsunade's leniency to Sasuke.

But mostly right, I want to squash the Danzo is a misunderstood "good guy." I find that most repugnant.

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by deidara330

I think now that the new chapter has come out, I'll use it to reinforce my original point, which was that Danzo always wanted peace for the Leaf Village. He just didn't think anyone but he himself could bring it. He wanted to do it all alone. He had good intentions, but his actions weren't quite so good.

I still say Danzo is a bad guy. They could do the same with Madara and I would think he's also a bad guy.

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by mrsticky005

I still say Danzo is a bad guy. They could do the same with Madara and I would think he's also a bad guy.

That's because Madara is a bad guy. But Danzo never got to be a full fledged villian. Kishimoto killed him off too quickly, silly Kishimoto. If he wanted Sasuke to kill a Konoha ninja, why not one of the advisors. They're the most useless characters of them all.

[mrsticky005]

Originally Posted by Wooster

That's because Madara is a bad guy. But Danzo never got to be a full fledged villian. Kishimoto killed him off too quickly, silly Kishimoto. If he wanted Sasuke to kill a Konoha ninja, why not one of the advisors. They're the most useless characters of them all.

I suspect Sasuke will fight both of them at the same time.

They will randomly get awesome powers.

Sasuke will be like SHARINGANED I copy you and win.

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by mrsticky005

I suspect Sasuke will fight both of them at the same time.

They will randomly get awesome powers.

Sasuke will be like SHARINGANED I copy you and win.

Well, that would be completely unexpected. I mean the advisors having powers.

[ninjamom]

A well thought-out post as well as many well thought-out responses! Danzo is the archetypal hardened General, who in defense of his people, was willing to pursue any and all methods available to him to fulfill his singular goal. In his mind, right and wrong, took second place to defending the village.

I especially liked chapter 481 because it gave Danzo's character more dimension and showed a vulnerable side and even some retrospection. As the poster has stated, it doesn't defend his actions, (and I don't think anyone is trying to say that), but it does give some insight into his behavior.

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by ninjamom

A well thought-out post as well as many well thought-out responses! Danzo is the archetypal hardened General, who in defense of his people, was willing to pursue any and all methods available to him to fulfill his singular goal. In his mind, right and wrong, took second place to defending the village.

I especially liked chapter 481 because it gave Danzo's character more dimension and showed a vulnerable side and even some retrospection. As the poster has stated, it doesn't defend his actions, (and I don't think anyone is trying to say that), but it does give some insight into his behavior.

Wow, I don't think there's anything I can diagree with here. Not that I didn't enjoy the lively debates with others.