Eureka-That's how Madara did it

[3littlepigs]

Originally Posted by Wooster

One of the remaining mysteries about Madara is how he survived his fight with the first Hokage. Even the first Hokage though he was dead, so I assume he saw Madara's dead body. So how did Madara pull this off.

I think the last few chapters have answered this question: Izanagi. When Danzo uses the Izanagi not only is a dead body left, but even Karin believes Danzo has died momentarily, and Karin is apparently the best sensor in the ninja world.

What better way for Madara to escape a losing battle than to pretend to have died. Of course, what we have seen with the Izanagi is that it 'closes' a Sharingan eye. This probably means it is lost. This is the reason why Madara wears his one eye mask, his other eye has been closed. Even with EMS, without both eyes Madara would lose much of his powers, at least two of the MS jutsu. Madara knows this jutsu and while he says its forbidden, I am sure he wouldn't be opposed to use a forbidden jutsu.

That's a really nice theory (and one that actually makes sense...you don't see many of those in these forums). I wouldn't be surprised if he did use Izanagi to fool Hashirama. Thanks for posting!

Originally Posted by V-Valentine

Wow did you do this yourself or copy my post on another site from about 2 days ago?

What's with claiming ownership on a "theory"? geez it's not like you copyright those and you're not getting paid for it either. He could've come up with that on his own no need to ruin his moment, besides just because you post theories all the time doesn't mean others didn't think of it as well.

[Yori]

Originally Posted by 3littlepigs

That's a really nice theory (and one that actually makes sense...you don't see many of those in these forums). I wouldn't be surprised if he did use Izanagi to fool Hashirama. Thanks for posting!

What's with claiming ownership on a "theory"? geez it's not like you copyright those and you're not getting paid for it either. He could've come up with that on his own no need to ruin his moment, besides just because you post theories all the time doesn't mean others didn't think of it as well.

Said it all my man

[3littlepigs]

Originally Posted by zerosameri

thats a pretty soild theory but isn;t their a jutsu juts like that. Durring the Zabuza arc when Haku hit Zabuza in the neck with a needle, he was thought to be dead. Even kakashi though he was dead.

Madara had the EMS at the time when he fout the 1st Haokage and it give the use imortaity depending on the user useing it. So maybe the 1st didn't know that Madara had it, but i don't think the 1st would of saw Madara dead, because the 1st died durring war. And Madara was still alive and known through out the village befor and at the 2nd grat Ninja war. If Madara was saposly dead when he fought the 1st then when Minato was fighting Madara/the Nine-tails wouldn't Minato be serpized bye the fact that he's a live? Madara was consider dead right after the 2nd Great Ninja war, so how could of he been dead when he fought the 1st. (well after that war was over)

-
but like I said thats a good theory.

We really don't know much about EMS so maybe EMS wasn't the actual reason why Madara survived the fight with Hashirama, he could've used Izanagi or something like that to fool Hashirama into thinking he did die. Because we have little info on EMS and how Madara is still alive we sometimes assume EMS gives immortality but maybe that's not the case.

Minato didn't know it was Madara who attacked Konoha 16 yrs ago using the Kyuubi. He simply knew someone (a masked man) was manipulating the fox and that that someone was stronger/better than him since he kept predicting all of his moves. Even after he saw Madara again through Naruto, Minato still didn't know who he was..he just said the one who wears the mask in Akatsuki. At the same time if he had known, I don't think he would've been that surprised judging by the reaction of Kakashi and Yamato when they found out Madara was still alive.

[zerosameri]

Originally Posted by toad

in the zabuza arc wen he was hit with a needle by haku kakashi knew he wasnt dead becuase as a former anu kakashi knows asassines strikle in vital areas and the neck wasnt and so kakashi saw through haku's deception

Good point their

Originally Posted by 3littlepigs

We really don't know much about EMS so maybe EMS wasn't the actual reason why Madara survived the fight with Hashirama, he could've used Izanagi or something like that to fool Hashirama into thinking he did die. Because we have little info on EMS and how Madara is still alive we sometimes assume EMS gives immortality but maybe that's not the case.

Minato didn't know it was Madara who attacked Konoha 16 yrs ago using the Kyuubi. He simply knew someone (a masked man) was manipulating the fox and that that someone was stronger/better than him since he kept predicting all of his moves. Even after he saw Madara again through Naruto, Minato still didn't know who he was..he just said the one who wears the mask in Akatsuki. At the same time if he had known, I don't think he would've been that surprised judging by the reaction of Kakashi and Yamato when they found out Madara was still alive.

true though, but Madara live durring the war on that 1st fought in. It never said that Madara died durring that war, all that was said that he left/died, after the 3rd great Ninja War, but at the time the uchiha clan was still alive, and under whatch. So Madara would of been known if he was dead or a live. And Seens he was told to help Itachi kill the clan means the village knew he was a live and not dead.

[3littlepigs]

Originally Posted by zerosameri

true though, but Madara live durring the war on that 1st fought in. It never said that Madara died durring that war, all that was said that he left/died, after the 3rd great Ninja War, but at the time the uchiha clan was still alive, and under whatch. So Madara would of been known if he was dead or a live. And Seens he was told to help Itachi kill the clan means the village knew he was a live and not dead.

I have no idea when the 1st and 2nd Ninja wars happened (in terms of timeline) but I know Madara was presumed dead after he fought Hashirama at the Valley of the End. After that no one even considered the possibility of him being alive, that goes for the Uchiha clan as well.

Yes, after Madara used the Kyuubi to attack Konoha 16 yrs ago the Uchiha were put under surveillance but no one knew that the Kyuubi was not a "natural disaster" and that someone was controlling it so in other words no one was thinking of Madara at that moment. The elders just became suspicious of all the Uchiha simply because it was a well known fact that the sharingan could contol the Kyuubi and the sharingan is the Uchiha's Kekkei Genkai. Also, it wasn't Danzou and the elders who asked Madara to help with the massacre...it was Itachi. Danzou's sneaky so he might have known that Madara helped with the massacre but it doesn't mean Sarutobi and the elders knew as well (or at least there's no proof that they knew he was alive).

[paiqueen]

Anyway, I like this theory.

[mrsticky005]

I think it's true. I mean Madara was able to recognize it for one thing.

[zerosameri]

Originally Posted by 3littlepigs

I have no idea when the 1st and 2nd Ninja wars happened (in terms of timeline) but I know Madara was presumed dead after he fought Hashirama at the Valley of the End. After that no one even considered the possibility of him being alive, that goes for the Uchiha clan as well.

Yes, after Madara used the Kyuubi to attack Konoha 16 yrs ago the Uchiha were put under surveillance but no one knew that the Kyuubi was not a "natural disaster" and that someone was controlling it so in other words no one was thinking of Madara at that moment. The elders just became suspicious of all the Uchiha simply because it was a well known fact that the sharingan could contol the Kyuubi and the sharingan is the Uchiha's Kekkei Genkai. Also, it wasn't Danzou and the elders who asked Madara to help with the massacre...it was Itachi. Danzou's sneaky so he might have known that Madara helped with the massacre but it doesn't mean Sarutobi and the elders knew as well (or at least there's no proof that they knew he was alive).

but yes few knew that he was alive, even if it was 1 or 2 people knew. But then it would of been recorded that he was dead and not alive.

[Deadman 8234]

Originally Posted by toad

in the zabuza arc wen he was hit with a needle by haku kakashi knew he wasnt dead becuase as a former anu kakashi knows asassines strikle in vital areas and the neck wasnt and so kakashi saw through haku's deception

Kakashi did not know right away that he wasn't dead. Thats not how he knew Zabuza was still alive.

What really happened was Haku put Zabuza in a momentary death. That's what made Kakashi think that he was dead. Later when he woke up (due to the fatigue of the sharingan) he sensed that something was wrong. He then put the peices tigehter and realized what happened. If he did see through HAku's deception then he would had killed Zabuza (for real) then and there.

[Wooster]

I am really appreciative of people trying to defend me here, but truly its not necessary. I took V-Valentine comment mostly as a joke, and responded as such. Unfourtanley, it resulted in a snowball of speculation and accusations. So I am sorry if I was a little harsh the second time, I was just trying to stop it as fast as possible. I am really not surprised that other's thought of this theory before, its really a slap-your-forhead "Of, Course" moment, hence Eureka. I was honestly surprised no one had posted it here yet. Though I think I may lay off predictions, they are too troublesome. Okay, I think I have been pretty magnaminous here. No hard feelings to anyone, really.

Back to the theory: I am going to do a complete about-face and reject this theory. Here's why, in the dozen chapters or so Kishmoto has really defied expectations. We all knew what Sakura was going to tell Naruto and that Kisame was going to capture Killerbee. How did that work out? I think Kishimoto is presenting us with a red herring here, this theory is too obvious. As others have stated here, there are probably many ways that Madara could have faked his death.

/adds leaven

[zerosameri]

Originally Posted by Wooster

I am really appreciative of people trying to defend me here, but truly its not necessary. I took V-Valentine comment mostly as a joke, and responded as such. Unfourtanley, it resulted in a snowball of speculation and accusations. So I am sorry if I was a little harsh the second time, I was just trying to stop it as fast as possible. I am really not surprised that other's thought of this theory before, its really a slap-your-forhead "Of, Course" moment, hence Eureka. I was honestly surprised no one had posted it here yet. Though I think I may lay off predictions, they are too troublesome. Okay, I think I have been pretty magnaminous here. No hard feelings to anyone, really.

Back to the theory: I am going to do a complete about-face and reject this theory. Here's why, in the dozen chapters or so Kishmoto has really defied expectations. We all knew what Sakura was going to tell Naruto and that Kisame was going to capture Killerbee. How did that work out? I think Kishimoto is presenting us with a red herring here, this theory is too obvious. As others have stated here, there are probably many ways that Madara could have faked his death.

but yet so many of the people are just to ingernet to realize that (including me), hence why it works out.

[3littlepigs]

Originally Posted by zerosameri

but yes few knew that he was alive, even if it was 1 or 2 people knew. But then it would of been recorded that he was dead and not alive.

I'm sorry but you lost me there ...I have no idea what we're "debating" anymore. From what I understand you're agreeing with me on everything....

Originally Posted by Wooster

I am really appreciative of people trying to defend me here, but truly its not necessary. I took V-Valentine comment mostly as a joke, and responded as such. Unfourtanley, it resulted in a snowball of speculation and accusations. So I am sorry if I was a little harsh the second time, I was just trying to stop it as fast as possible. I am really not surprised that other's thought of this theory before, its really a slap-your-forhead "Of, Course" moment, hence Eureka. I was honestly surprised no one had posted it here yet. Though I think I may lay off predictions, they are too troublesome. Okay, I think I have been pretty magnaminous here. No hard feelings to anyone, really.

Back to the theory: I am going to do a complete about-face and reject this theory. Here's why, in the dozen chapters or so Kishmoto has really defied expectations. We all knew what Sakura was going to tell Naruto and that Kisame was going to capture Killerbee. How did that work out? I think Kishimoto is presenting us with a red herring here, this theory is too obvious. As others have stated here, there are probably many ways that Madara could have faked his death.

Even if you did take it as a joke to some of us it didn't sound like that. People have to be careful with how they write things...we can't see each other in forums so depending on your writing, well whatever you're trying to say can come across in a way you never intended to (which is why sometimes smilies can help ).

Actually I was one of the few who didn't think Kisame would capture Killer Bee (although I didn't think he would die like that either...). Even if it's really obvious part of it can still turn out to be true, remember when some people were saying Sasuke had a bijuu because of a dark figure that appeared behind him? Well I always said that was just all his negative energy coming out...part of it turned out to be true since it was just his (ugly) Susano'o.

Originally Posted by zerosameri

but yet so many of the people are just to ingernet to realize that (including me), hence why it works out.

LOL

[Wooster]

I have further evidence to dispute my own theory. First, when Madara is talking to the Kage he says the wounds inflicted upon him were too great and that caused his lose of power. If Madara used Izanagi his loss of power wouldn't be caused by wounds, but closing of his eye. Second Madara still has his right eye, so he should still have the Amaterasu if his power drop is only due to losing an eye. There's no evidence that Madara has any technique except advanced Kamui skills. Third, he says he will use the Jubi the strengthen his eyes. I would assume he still has both eyes.

/adds leaven

[Ur Mom]

So wait a minute, NOW YOU'RE GOING AGAINST YOUR OWN THEORY?

[deidara330]

Originally Posted by Wooster

I have further evidence to dispute my own theory.

Go ahead.

First, when Madara is talking to the Kage he says the wounds inflicted upon him were too great and that caused his lose of power.

No. Exact quote "The wounds inflicted by Shodai Hokage Hashirama were too great... I am now a mere shell of my former self". He never mentions that the wounds created by Hashirama actually caused his loss of power.

If Madara used Izanagi his loss of power wouldn't be caused by wounds, but closing of his eye.

Actually, after activating the jutsu, any fatal wound will revive him, causing one of his Sharingan eyes to close. In a way, the wounds would be an indirect cause of the loss of power.

Second Madara still has his right eye, so he should still have the Amaterasu if his power drop is only due to losing an eye.

This is true, however the loss of an advanced Sharingan eye would cause an inverse effect on the amount of chakra Madara has, and therefore Madara would have less chakra to use the Amaterasu.

There's no evidence that Madara has any technique except advanced Kamui skills.

Is this even Kamui? This could be an entirely different technique altogether. We never learn of the exact location to which Kamui itself would teleport someone.

Third, he says he will use the Jubi the strengthen his eyes. I would assume he still has both eyes.

Danzo still technically has all ten of his eyes. He simply cannot use them anymore. They no longer serve any function as eyes, but are still classified as eyes. And it was never truly specified that by using Izanagi, the user loses the eye forever (or at least not to my knowledge). Madara could simply regain the use of his eye from the massive chakra flow of the Juubi.

Originally Posted by Urmom

So wait a minute, NOW YOU'RE GOING AGAINST YOUR OWN THEORY?

It offers you a certain level of challenge and takes a decent amount of skill to rebuke your own theory. I don't blame him.

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by deidara330

Danzo still technically has all ten of his eyes. He simply cannot use them anymore. They no longer serve any function as eyes, but are still classified as eyes. And it was never truly specified that by using Izanagi, the user loses the eye forever (or at least not to my knowledge). Madara could simply regain the use of his eye from the massive chakra flow of the Juubi.

Bah! Your arguments are pretty good. I guess, I will use my remaining weak argument. Madara seems to imply he will strengthen both eyes implying both are weakened. That's all I got for now, but I will search for more.

Originally Posted by deidara330

It offers you a certain level of challenge and takes a decent amount of skill to rebuke your own theory. I don't blame him.

It is quite challenging. Not to mention personally I really want this theory to die now.

[3littlepigs]

Originally Posted by Wooster

I have further evidence to dispute my own theory. First, when Madara is talking to the Kage he says the wounds inflicted upon him were too great and that caused his lose of power. If Madara used Izanagi his loss of power wouldn't be caused by wounds, but closing of his eye. Second Madara still has his right eye, so he should still have the Amaterasu if his power drop is only due to losing an eye. There's no evidence that Madara has any technique except advanced Kamui skills. Third, he says he will use the Jubi the strengthen his eyes. I would assume he still has both eyes.

LOL this is weird...you're going against your own theory!
Anyway the Uchiha were extremely powerful because of their eyes so losing one eye would cut his power in half (almost), especially since he already had EMS so by saying the wounds inflicted on him were too great he could mean he had to use Izanagi (or something like that) and so lose one of his sharingan. There's no proof that Madara even has Amaterasu...that was Itachi's MS.

Well in japanese there's really no plural so the translation can say "eyes" but he could be referring to just "one eye".

[valtreck]

^^you're right

[uzumakisgirl]

nice theory

[Wooster]

Well, Chapter 479 confirmed

Spoiler:

the Izanagi causes the lose of Sharingan as its used. So this point would strengthen the proposed theory. However, Madara has yet to state that he used it, and given how much he thought about Izanagi in this chapter you would think he would compare it to when he used it. So I gain at least one point in my campaign to disprove the theory. I think if this theory is true it would have to be revealed soon. So every week that passes, it becomes less and less likely.

Also, another point, Madara's Sharingan is always active and we never see his MS. Both Sasuke and Itachi were able to deactivate their Sharingan. Kakashi and Danzo apparently cannot and so must keep theirs covered. That Madara Sharingan is always activate suggest its not his original or something else is wrong with it, so the problem is not just his left eye.