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Old 12-04-2009, 05:51 PM   #201
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I think Kisame>Sasori at this point but Ammy was burning just fine through the rain, so it's not hampered as much by water. Kisame also has a low genjutsu stat in the databooks so if he gets in Tsukuyomi there's nothing he can really do about it, though it's quite possible that Samehada can dispel the weaker genjutsu.

.

If Samehada can dispell lower genjutsu, it can dispel any genjutsu except Tsukuyomi, and Tsukuyomi cn be avoided by Kisame only looking at the lower part of Itachi's body and sensing his chakra for when he moves. Kisame has been his partner for a long time, he won't be stupid enough to look in his eyes.

For Amaterasu, Kisame spams water clones, Itachi won't know which to use it on, Sasuke showed Sharingan can distinguish the difference, plus he could just make a clone to cover himself. Amaterasu is also only supposed to have a range of 5 meters and if Itachi uses Amaterasu Kisame can sense the buildup of chakra in his eyes nd get our of his sight and range, as seen with Hachibi, Amaterasu isn't instant, it travels, since Hachibi had time to move a tentacle in front of himself.
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Old 12-04-2009, 05:56 PM   #202
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If Samehada can dispell lower genjutsu, it can dispel any genjutsu except Tsukuyomi, and Tsukuyomi cn be avoided by Kisame only looking at the lower part of Itachi's body and sensing his chakra for when he moves. Kisame has been his partner for a long time, he won't be stupid enough to look in his eyes.

For Amaterasu, Kisame spams water clones, Itachi won't know which to use it on, Sasuke showed Sharingan can distinguish the difference, plus he could just make a clone to cover himself. Amaterasu is also only supposed to have a range of 5 meters and if Itachi uses Amaterasu Kisame can sense the buildup of chakra in his eyes nd get our of his sight and range, as seen with Hachibi, Amaterasu isn't instant, it travels, since Hachibi had time to move a tentacle in front of himself.
How good is his chakra sensing exactly?

& you just said Sasuke showed Sharingan can distinguish the difference so Itachi should know which one to use it on.
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I know that, that's why I've been saying it would repel the paper he's already been blanketed with all this time...
But the circular radius, nor the cannon, takes care of Konan's volume, she's all around him.
Err...What? His Jet boosters are used for jumping...And punching...Both of which do nothing to Konan...
There are some that come from his back.
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Oh, and let me just complement you on taking on so many debates at once, haha.
Oi thank you.
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Old 12-04-2009, 06:01 PM   #203
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How good is his chakra sensing exactly?

& you just said Sasuke showed Sharingan can distinguish the difference so Itachi should know which one to use it on.

Sorry typo, I meant can't, he could tell the difference between the tentacle clone and real one, being able to is anime filler, even Madara couldn't.

He was able to fight KB perfectly with no sight at all.
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Old 12-04-2009, 06:03 PM   #204
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Sorry typo, I meant can't, he could tell the difference between the tentacle clone and real one, being able to is anime filler, even Madara couldn't.

He was able to fight KB perfectly with no sight at all.
No sight, when? He had his eyes open in the ink while KB's chakra drained iirc.
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Old 12-04-2009, 06:06 PM   #205
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There are some that come from his back.

Oi thank you.
Yeah, and some from his side, and his other side, and above him, and all around...He can't handle it.

No problem!
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Old 12-04-2009, 06:06 PM   #206
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No sight, when? He had his eyes open in the ink while KB's chakra drained iirc.

I didn't say eyes closes, I meant no sight. In the ink he couldn't see at all, that was the whole point of it, but his chakra sensing countered it.
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Old 12-04-2009, 06:24 PM   #207
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How is Might Guy Kage +??? I can understand him being that when in gates mode but not normally, also Chiyo, she is Jonin imo, she is not Kage level, yes she is a Puppet Master but she can't really do all that much without prior knowledge, she was thinking of facing Itachi straight on as long as you have a friend with you, and the only reason she lived after getting poisoned is plot, nothing more, she would have died without Sakura there (and vice versa) I say she is high jonin but not kage.
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Old 12-05-2009, 12:47 AM   #208
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If Samehada can dispell lower genjutsu, it can dispel any genjutsu except Tsukuyomi, and Tsukuyomi cn be avoided by Kisame only looking at the lower part of Itachi's body and sensing his chakra for when he moves. Kisame has been his partner for a long time, he won't be stupid enough to look in his eyes.

For Amaterasu, Kisame spams water clones, Itachi won't know which to use it on, Sasuke showed Sharingan can distinguish the difference, plus he could just make a clone to cover himself. Amaterasu is also only supposed to have a range of 5 meters and if Itachi uses Amaterasu Kisame can sense the buildup of chakra in his eyes nd get our of his sight and range, as seen with Hachibi, Amaterasu isn't instant, it travels, since Hachibi had time to move a tentacle in front of himself.
First, I said Itachi would win 70% of the time, but since I have been debating this fight for a while now, and I even realize more of the fight. Now, I see Itachi winning at least 80% and Sasuke at least 70%.

Now about Samehada, first it is possible for Samehada to break him out of weaker gen not certain. Also if it can, it wouldn't make him immune to weaker gen or be an instant dispell. It would leave him open for Itachi to catch him in Amaterusu, Tsuyokumi, or get out of bubble. Not even going to touch on trying to say he would fight like Gai. I mean really how could of Kisame been training to fight against a Sharingan user, when him and Itachi have been together. Yes, he would try to avoid eye contact, but everyone that fights a Sharingan does. It is basic knowledge for any ninja.

Kisame has never shown to be able to create water clones while merged, much less make a mass of water clones. Amaterasu is pretty much instant, at most it would take 2 seconds based on it being stated in the manga it is unavoidable (I believe the time it takes comes from using it and not the actual Amaterasu), and being able to catch Sasuke, yes Raikage and KB were able to react in time, but they are some of the fastest charaters in Naruto atm. KB still wasn't able to dodge it.

I love how being able to sense KB's chakra right in front of him, now makes him able to sense an Amaterasu coming. You also said later that he was able to fight KB with no sight in the fight. Lol it was for like 2 screens and it was just a simple Samehada sensing his chakra, because it wanted to absorb it. Please quit overrating his sensing when it was just a simple feat, and it was Samehada that sensed it.

Now about Sasuke, how does water effect Amaterasu, I don't get how this is a counter for it, when not only does the manga say it can't be put it unless the user does, but it was feats to be able to burn through water and in water? How does Kisame get past his Amaterasu shield, when Raikage with his Raition armor couldn't without losing an arm. Yes, his Susano'o isn't as powerful as Itachi's of course, but it is still very effective, but in Sasuke's case I believe he wouldn't have to use it. Yes, his lightning jutsu would hurt him, but no where near as much as Kisame. Based on 2 feats, one Sasuke can manipulate Lightning making him already use to it. Second Sasuke used chidori twice I believe on himself proving he can electrocute himself and still fight. I mean think about it Sasuke has Tsuyokumi, Amatersu with better control, his own Susano'o, and lightning jutsu vs Kisame's water jutsu. Not only that, but Kisame has proven to be able to be speedblitzed, and Sasuke always starts off by speedblitzing. Kisame wouldn't have his bubble up or be merged yet.

I'll finish with a few counters for Kuromaki. Oro got caught off guard how? He was staring right at Itachi, and even could of seen that Itachi's Susano'o had spirit weapons, since he spent a lot of time trying to search for them.

You hit exactly what I am talking about in the Kisame vs KB fight. KB had everything against him. KB is mostly melee from what we have seen so far, he didn't go into his full transformation, he spent about 8/10 of the fight running trying to save his friends and getting his chakra absorbed, and he only attacked three times I believe during the whole fight. I am just saying it was a very bad scenario, and KB didn't get to focus on the fight.

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Old 12-05-2009, 08:51 AM   #209
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sweet awesome job man rep up
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Old 12-05-2009, 12:02 PM   #210
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There are some that come from his back.
Or are you talking about the boosters?
Those were the tendrils for firing the cannons, and they would have to manevuer to fire, they don't seem to have a function just by themselves.
He's easily overwhelmed.
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Old 12-05-2009, 12:09 PM   #211
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How is Might Guy Kage +??? I can understand him being that when in gates mode but not normally, also Chiyo, she is Jonin imo, she is not Kage level, yes she is a Puppet Master but she can't really do all that much without prior knowledge, she was thinking of facing Itachi straight on as long as you have a friend with you, and the only reason she lived after getting poisoned is plot, nothing more, she would have died without Sakura there (and vice versa) I say she is high jonin but not kage.
Guy is pretty fast and he's superior to Lee, so he's in Kage level.

Sasori is quite superior to Chiyo so she can't be argued there, but she has tons of knowledge and experience, she's also good at Taijutsu and her puppets can use effective teamwork.
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Or are you talking about the boosters?
Those were the tendrils for firing the cannons, and they would have to manevuer to fire, they don't seem to have a function just by themselves.
He's easily overwhelmed.
Not really, if Konan tries to suffocate him he can use his Axe to cut the nearby paper and use his Cannons too, Jugo tanked a punch from the Raikage so I don't think her sharpened paper will really do much to him, Konan's best chance is suffocation.

Edit: Added Yahiko
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Old 12-05-2009, 12:20 PM   #212
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Not really, if Konan tries to suffocate him he can use his Axe to cut the nearby paper and use his Cannons too, Jugo tanked a punch from the Raikage so I don't think her sharpened paper will really do much to him, Konan's best chance is suffocation.
Yeah, that's what I meant. She doesn't need to waste time on physically trying to kill him. Strength won't do much to Konan, and his blasts are easily avoid by the swarm, though he does take out a few pieces of paper.
Once the blasts have fired, and not very effectively, at the swarm all around him, his opening would be exploited, and he would be blanketed very quickly.
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Old 12-05-2009, 12:29 PM   #213
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And about Yahiko, we should probably list him as his highest tier - when he was the leader of the Ame's gang. We don't really know about his skills from that time, but Nagato had improved drastically, so Yahiko probably did too, so he probably had a few more water stlye moves (We have reason to believe Yahiko could do something like the rain jutsu) and he had a sword too!
So...maybe...by hype...Since Hanzo thought they were a threat, how about under regular Jugo? I dunno.
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Old 12-05-2009, 12:35 PM   #214
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Yeah, that's what I meant. She doesn't need to waste time on physically trying to kill him. Strength won't do much to Konan, and his blasts are easily avoid by the swarm, though he does take out a few pieces of paper.
Once the blasts have fired, and not very effectively, at the swarm all around him, his opening would be exploited, and he would be blanketed very quickly.
The blasts take like one small panel to load. So if Konan tries to get him then he can just use the cannons. Meanwhile he could be fending off some pieces of paper with his CS2 blades.
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And about Yahiko, we should probably list him as his highest tier - when he was the leader of the Ame's gang. We don't really know about his skills from that time, but Nagato had improved drastically, so Yahiko probably did too, so he probably had a few more water stlye moves (We have reason to believe Yahiko could do something like the rain jutsu) and he had a sword too!
So...maybe...by hype...Since Hanzo thought they were a threat, how about under regular Jugo? I dunno.
The thing is, Yahiko's only feats are a sword and a C-rank water jutsu. The Rain Tiger At Will technique was only shown on Deva path years later.

Speaking of Hanzo, where do you think I should add him? His power is based mostly on hype, but he apparently moves very fast in the water, he has a large salamander summon with which he was able to fight off the three Sannin and he can use an explosive tag jutsu.
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Old 12-05-2009, 01:08 PM   #215
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The blasts take like one small panel to load. So if Konan tries to get him then he can just use the cannons. Meanwhile he could be fending off some pieces of paper with his CS2 blades.

The thing is, Yahiko's only feats are a sword and a C-rank water jutsu. The Rain Tiger At Will technique was only shown on Deva path years later.

Speaking of Hanzo, where do you think I should add him? His power is based mostly on hype, but he apparently moves very fast in the water, he has a large salamander summon with which he was able to fight off the three Sannin and he can use an explosive tag jutsu.
First the tendrils had to grow into place and aim, it took longer than that, much longer than the swarm took to overwhelm Jiraya. Afterwards they retreated as well, and he was open. Konan would definetly get him.
And CS blades is very nearly useless against Konan's swarming paper, that most likely be blanketed as well, especially after she got his eyes.

Right...Well, he seemed about Jonin level anyway.

Right, and he was also able to avoid gedo mazo somehow. Jiraya also thought he was really strong even when he recently invaded.
How about under Onoki?
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Old 12-05-2009, 01:15 PM   #216
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First the tendrils had to grow into place and aim, it took longer than that, much longer than the swarm took to overwhelm Jiraya. Afterwards they retreated as well, and he was open. Konan would definetly get him.
And CS blades is very nearly useless against Konan's swarming paper, that most likely be blanketed as well, especially after she got his eyes.

Right...Well, he seemed about Jonin level anyway.

Right, and he was also able to avoid gedo mazo somehow. Jiraya also thought he was really strong even when he recently invaded.
How about under Onoki?
They also took like a panel to appear. So they really only took about 2-3 panels, they're not that slow. I think the CS2 axe can help him cut away the paper, but for the most part it's ineffective and it would only help him last longer.

Okay, that's where I'll place him.
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Old 12-05-2009, 01:24 PM   #217
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They also took like a panel to appear. So they really only took about 2-3 panels, they're not that slow. I think the CS2 axe can help him cut away the paper, but for the most part it's ineffective and it would only help him last longer.

Okay, that's where I'll place him.
Yeah, and Konan took one for Konan to gather all of her paper that was filling an entire expanse and swarm at Jiraya.
When we're talking straight speed, Konan is faster. But the cannons really won't get rid of that much paper, (When you look at the panel, she's literally all around him) and after he fires he's too open to blanketing once again.

Really? Yay, I'm battle savy!
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Old 12-05-2009, 01:29 PM   #218
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Yeah, and Konan took one for Konan to gather all of her paper that was filling an entire expanse and swarm at Jiraya.
When we're talking straight speed, Konan is faster. But the cannons really won't get rid of that much paper, (When you look at the panel, she's literally all around him) and after he fires he's too open to blanketing once again.

Really? Yay, I'm battle savy!
Well... it kinda took 2 panels as well, then Konan appeared in front of the dude she was trying to suffocate and stab.

I also added Yugito Nii, and the 2 tailed beast to the tier list.
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Old 12-05-2009, 01:50 PM   #219
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Well... it kinda took 2 panels as well, then Konan appeared in front of the dude she was trying to suffocate and stab.

I also added Yugito Nii, and the 2 tailed beast to the tier list.
Konan was free to do that once she had him blanketed, yeah.
But she won't even need to against Jugo, just keep blanketing and suffocation occurs.

Hmm...I think the cat is alittle too high, all we saw of it was that it could breathe fire and was strong, but it didn't seem to pose that much of a threat to even Hidan...I suppose hype puts it up there...I think it needs to be above Yugito, because some characters could probably beat it. What about below Suigetsu?
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Old 12-05-2009, 01:59 PM   #220
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Konan was free to do that once she had him blanketed, yeah.
But she won't even need to against Jugo, just keep blanketing and suffocation occurs.

Hmm...I think the cat is alittle too high, all we saw of it was that it could breathe fire and was strong, but it didn't seem to pose that much of a threat to even Hidan...I suppose hype puts it up there...I think it needs to be above Yugito, because some characters could probably beat it. What about below Suigetsu?
The "boosters" can probably come out and blast her once she prepares to stab him, and stabbing will likely be tanked, not to mention he can dodge.

It's likely that Hidan had help from Kakuzu to beat it. It had powerful blasts of fire that can destroy a large area and its full power wasn't shown, which is why it's up there. In fact it should be above Shukaku due to the number of tails but Shukaku can beat it with the feats it's shown.

Edit: I'm adding Hiruzen (Prime) and moving him up because of the new things confirmed in the latest fanbook.
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