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Old 10-22-2009, 10:17 PM   #1
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Default Canon vs. Non-Canon...The Big One.

Alright this is it. i doubt anyone will jump on this since i find many ppl don't pay attention to my posts but here goes. An issue that has irked me all across the battlerounds is the inconsistency in the use of canonity as evidence to support ur argument. The definition of what is canon when discussing certain characters, universes, powers, etc. is hazy to say the least. So this thread is to debate what works and what doesn't, though i doubt we'll reach a consensus, probly have to agree to disagree. A few rules:
1. no neg repping (unless someone flames u), all opinions are welcome and appreciated.
2. no flaming or spamming, pure unadulterated politicking only plz
3. try to back up ur arguments with evidence wherever possible. if u can't post a link due to copyright or forum rules or w/e, try to refer ppl to the material so they can look it up themselves if so inclined.

rocklee...im calling u out in particular

round one wil begin with the following post...ding ding ding.
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Old 10-22-2009, 10:22 PM   #2
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Default Re: Canon vs. Non-Canon...The Big One.

the biggest argument ppl seem to have is that if its not written/produced by the original creator then its not canon and therefore holds no weight. This doesn't stand up...particularly when u look at how ppl debate comics. For example, I've seen ppl saying big bad superman is an invincible omnipotent demi-god...but this isn't consistent with the "original creator" argument. Jerry shuster and joe siegels superman was "faster than a speeding bullet, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound"... not massively FTL, universe busting...he couldnt even fly. the more epic S-man was pre crisis on infinite earths, in stories written by many different writers. post crisis we see a more vulnerable superman as well but still more powerful than the very original... this is inconsistency number one.
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Old 10-22-2009, 11:11 PM   #3
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Default Re: Canon vs. Non-Canon...The Big One.

I agree with you.
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Old 10-24-2009, 08:41 AM   #4
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Default Re: Canon vs. Non-Canon...The Big One.

When it comes to Naruto, only the manga should count. I don't really care about the other series.
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Tenten's ability is using a lot of weapons at once. However, in a series like Naruto, this is a rather dull ability since somehow actual weapons don't work on them. Even "normal" characters like Iruka can get impaled with windmill shurikens and still move. Normal weapons in Naruto are used simply to buy some time.

Perhaps if she had Shikamaru's intelligence then she wouldn't have to waste all those weapons.

Unless I'm mistaken the only character she beat was herself. :/
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Old 10-24-2009, 02:45 PM   #5
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Default Re: Canon vs. Non-Canon...The Big One.

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Originally Posted by C4 Karura View Post
When it comes to Naruto, only the manga should count. I don't really care about the other series.
why should only the manga count tho?
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Old 10-24-2009, 05:53 PM   #6
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Default Re: Canon vs. Non-Canon...The Big One.

I feel that the manga leaves too much out. Looking at a fight that has happened in both the manga seems like the rough draft that the author made the ideas and put them in frames that leave many to speculate what happens inbetween. It's hard to judge time and distance in the manga in many of the fights. Also the anime uses just about every frame shown in the manga but it fills in the holes as well.

I also thought that everything that is shown in the anime filler included is approved by the author of the manga. If that's the case then I don't see any problem with using the information provided from the filler. If the author didn't agree with it he wouldn't have allowed it to be in it because it would cause issues with the story on down the line.
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Old 10-24-2009, 08:36 PM   #7
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Default Re: Canon vs. Non-Canon...The Big One.

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Originally Posted by kazzim13 View Post
I feel that the manga leaves too much out. Looking at a fight that has happened in both the manga seems like the rough draft that the author made the ideas and put them in frames that leave many to speculate what happens inbetween. It's hard to judge time and distance in the manga in many of the fights. Also the anime uses just about every frame shown in the manga but it fills in the holes as well.

I also thought that everything that is shown in the anime filler included is approved by the author of the manga. If that's the case then I don't see any problem with using the information provided from the filler. If the author didn't agree with it he wouldn't have allowed it to be in it because it would cause issues with the story on down the line.
That's where you're wrong. It's filler for a reason. It's made by the anime company so the author can get ahead with the story. Filler is non-canon since it doesn't happen in the manga. I mean Toriyama approved of Toei using his characters for GT but GT never happened officially since the manga ends at the end of DBZ. Also filler happens outside of the continuity so it doesn't cause problems with the manga.
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Old 10-24-2009, 08:41 PM   #8
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Default Re: Canon vs. Non-Canon...The Big One.

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Originally Posted by ChaosInuYasha View Post
That's where you're wrong. It's filler for a reason. It's made by the anime company so the author can get ahead with the story. Filler is non-canon since it doesn't happen in the manga. I mean Toriyama approved of Toei using his characters for GT but GT never happened officially since the manga ends at the end of DBZ. Also filler happens outside of the continuity so it doesn't cause problems with the manga.
"because it doesn't happen in the manga" isn't an explanation of why something's not canon...which is what we're debating here. all of this comes down to what u consider canon to be...its true the meaning of the word canon is " a set of literature deemed authentic by the author" but that doesnt mean that directly related material based on the source and often produced in collaboration with the author is undebatable.
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Old 10-24-2009, 08:44 PM   #9
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Default Re: Canon vs. Non-Canon...The Big One.

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"because it doesn't happen in the manga" isn't an explanation of why something's not canon...which is what we're debating here. all of this comes down to what u consider canon to be...its true the meaning of the word canon is " a set of literature deemed authentic by the author" but that doesnt mean that directly related material based on the source and often produced in collaboration with the author is undebatable.
You just answered your own question. Filler is not canon since it was not deemed authentic by the author. GT is not canon for the same reason.
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Old 10-24-2009, 08:46 PM   #10
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Default Re: Canon vs. Non-Canon...The Big One.

I don't like the use of Non-canon in debates. Like Ino, there was a huge debate between whether Ino could defeat Konohamaru or not and most of it was based around Mind Destruction Jutsu. Ino can't use Mind Destruction Jutsu, because it was anime only.
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Old 10-24-2009, 08:46 PM   #11
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Default Re: Canon vs. Non-Canon...The Big One.

yeah i know that... but im saying that doesnt apply here...the author isnt an anime producer so obviously the anime can't be part of his "canon" body of literature...but the author approves the anime and contributes to it for a reason...and there are far more consistencies between animes and mangas than there are inconsistencies
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Old 10-24-2009, 09:28 PM   #12
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Default Re: Canon vs. Non-Canon...The Big One.

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yeah i know that... but im saying that doesnt apply here...the author isnt an anime producer so obviously the anime can't be part of his "canon" body of literature...but the author approves the anime and contributes to it for a reason...and there are far more consistencies between animes and mangas than there are inconsistencies
Yeah most of the anime is canon. Fillers are NOT canon though. They never were canon. They are made by the anime studios for 1) a buffer between the anime and manga and 2) entertainment.
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Old 10-24-2009, 09:40 PM   #13
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Default Re: Canon vs. Non-Canon...The Big One.

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Yeah most of the anime is canon. Fillers are NOT canon though. They never were canon. They are made by the anime studios for 1) a buffer between the anime and manga and 2) entertainment.
Yep, FILLER, also mentioned as "Non-Canon", isn't real. It never really happened, and was only made for~

A) To give the author enough time to catch up on his/her work.

B) To give side-characters more screen time

and

C) To lengthen the timeline of the anime, and to entertain.
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Old 10-25-2009, 08:34 AM   #14
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Default Re: Canon vs. Non-Canon...The Big One.

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Originally Posted by Vatanui AKA Pride View Post
Yep, FILLER, also mentioned as "Non-Canon", isn't real. It never really happened, and was only made for~

A) To give the author enough time to catch up on his/her work.

B) To give side-characters more screen time

and

C) To lengthen the timeline of the anime, and to entertain.
You can't really say "it never happened"...because it did, u saw it happen, i saw it happen...theres some legitimate character development that goes on during filler...i dont think we can ignore that.
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Old 10-25-2009, 08:39 AM   #15
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Default Re: Canon vs. Non-Canon...The Big One.

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You can't really say "it never happened"...because it did, u saw it happen, i saw it happen...theres some legitimate character development that goes on during filler...i dont think we can ignore that.
If it happened why didn't Ino use Mind Destruction on Hidan during their fight? ANd why has Naruto never use the jutsu with the toads outside of the filler arc? It didn't happen in the manga, so the manga can't have it. And if the manga doesn't have it, it's not a part of the original Naruto storyline.
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Old 10-25-2009, 10:58 AM   #16
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Default Re: Canon vs. Non-Canon...The Big One.

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If it happened why didn't Ino use Mind Destruction on Hidan during their fight? ANd why has Naruto never use the jutsu with the toads outside of the filler arc? It didn't happen in the manga, so the manga can't have it. And if the manga doesn't have it, it's not a part of the original Naruto storyline.
Yep, it was only made for the reasons I posted earlier.
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Old 10-25-2009, 12:14 PM   #17
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Default Re: Canon vs. Non-Canon...The Big One.

There can be different "versions" of comic characters, depending on who the author was at the time. That's why it is useful for the thread starter to specify the version. Like with Superman- Original version? Pre-Crisis? Post-Crisis? Current? Thread starters need to specify to avoid ambiguity.

As for manga-based anime like Naruto, the anime can have inconsistencies and add stuff the manga author never wrote or intended to write. That's why the manga should always be considered over the anime in case of a inconsistency, and is in general a better source for feats and arguments. Of course, thread starters can say stuff like "Anime feats are allowed" or "Manga feats only" and people who post in the thread should go by that rule.
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Old 10-25-2009, 07:01 PM   #18
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Default Re: Canon vs. Non-Canon...The Big One.

I would've posted some rant about how this thread ignores the facts of canon logic, but I was beaten to it.
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Old 10-25-2009, 08:16 PM   #19
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Default Re: Canon vs. Non-Canon...The Big One.

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There can be different "versions" of comic characters, depending on who the author was at the time. That's why it is useful for the thread starter to specify the version. Like with Superman- Original version? Pre-Crisis? Post-Crisis? Current? Thread starters need to specify to avoid ambiguity.

As for manga-based anime like Naruto, the anime can have inconsistencies and add stuff the manga author never wrote or intended to write. That's why the manga should always be considered over the anime in case of a inconsistency, and is in general a better source for feats and arguments. Of course, thread starters can say stuff like "Anime feats are allowed" or "Manga feats only" and people who post in the thread should go by that rule.
i understand those arguments. but take for example dragonball...the original series was basically the manga on film...granted there was filler but the db storyline was less rigid anyway so the continuity didnt suffer. Then dbz came around, under direct influence from toriyama...but dbz laid out so much new material, new character developments, new story... the anime became as much a part of the dbz universe as the manga. ppl act like gt doesnt exist because theres no manga, but it builds so closely off the previous anime it extends the universe that much further. when u make a thread like "dbz verse vs. narutoverse" both those universes encompass more than just the manga...the anime, the movies its all part of the evolution of these types of media. u can't limit it to "what the author intends" or even what he has done already...its bigger than just the author. i sound like a structuralist...
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Old 10-25-2009, 08:19 PM   #20
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Default Re: Canon vs. Non-Canon...The Big One.

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i understand those arguments. but take for example dragonball...the original series was basically the manga on film...granted there was filler but the db storyline was less rigid anyway so the continuity didnt suffer. Then dbz came around, under direct influence from toriyama...but dbz laid out so much new material, new character developments, new story... the anime became as much a part of the dbz universe as the manga. ppl act like gt doesnt exist because theres no manga, but it builds so closely off the previous anime it extends the universe that much further. when u make a thread like "dbz verse vs. narutoverse" both those universes encompass more than just the manga...the anime, the movies its all part of the evolution of these types of media. u can't limit it to "what the author intends" or even what he has done already...its bigger than just the author. i sound like a structuralist...
What you don't realize is that GT and filler not only fail, but have many inconsistencies. Just because they add extra material doesn't mean it's better or canon, it just means that they used it to let the manga get time to release and made up some random material to entertain fans while this happened. As for GT, it was some random junk made by the anime company for no apparent reason, it wasn't that great either.

The original material is what is canon, and that's what you don't get. It doesn't matter whether the author never got a chance to do something the anime did, if he wanted to so much, he would've done it. Honestly now, filler is filled with inconsistencies but somehow you ignore that and think it's canon, if only because you like it.
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