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-   -   Singleverse: Mordor vs Isengard (http://forum.naruto.viz.com/showthread.php?t=124740)

Ninja of Cao 01-04-2013 03:35 PM

Mordor vs Isengard
 
The two strongest factions of the "evil" side in the Lord of the Rings universe. But which one would win if they went to war against each other? The enormous Orc hordes of Mordor and its immortal Ringwraiths, or the mighty Uruk-hai forces of Isengard under The White Wizard?



Scenario: With no forces of Good left in this world, Saruman sees his chance to conquer Middle Earth by himself and betrays the forces of Sauron. But this action has been foreseen by the Dark Lord, who sends the full armed might of Mordor to attack the fortress of Isengard. A siege begins, where the two great nations of evil battle each other to the end.


Comparison:
Spoiler:

Statistics Mordor Isengard
Army size: 100,209 20,000
Fortifications: Barad-dur Isengard
Kings: Mouth of SauronSaruman
Field commanders: Witch-king of Angmar Lurtz
Army setup:

Mordor
100,000 Orcs
200 Trolls
9 Nazguls, including the Witch-king of Angmar

Isengard
10,000 Uruk-hai
2,000 Warg riders
2,000 goblins
6,000 Dunlending wildmen
1 wizard (Saruman)

My own conclusion:
Spoiler:

I am no expert on Lord of the Rings, as I have only watched the movies and gained limited knowledge from the official LOTR wiki. But I know that the nine Nazguls are very powerful, especially with the Witch-king of Angmar commanding them. However, the White Wizard should prove a match for them even if they attack altogether (I don't know if he is stronger, though; that is up to someone else to tell me). So with my limited knowledge of the magical fighters, let us look at the armies: Mordor has a definite advantage in manpower, but Uruk-hai are far superior to Orcs, not to mention that Saruman has access to cavalry in the shape of Warg riders. But on the other hand, Mordor has brought 200 Trolls to the battlefield. 2,000 Warg riders vs. 200 Trolls... uncertain. In the end I think that Isengard will win only because they are on the defensive and has utterly superior infantry, plus a powerful wizard commanding them. I mean, the Orcs cannot utilize their massive numbers effectively while besieging Isengard and will have to break down the gates or small areas of the walls, which can easily be defended by a massive Uruk-hai spear formation. And even though the Nazguls are powerful, we shouldn't underestimate a thousands of years old wizard who can obviously create enormous storms just by shouting at the sky...
Final conclusion: Isengard wins, but it will be difficult.

321zigzag3 01-04-2013 03:41 PM

Re: Mordor vs Isengard
 
In the book Gandalf said Isengard cannot fight Mordor without the ring of power.

Even with 10,000 Uruk Hai vs how many multipled Mordor orcs + the Ringwraiths + plus trolls.
Not sure on the other Isengard followers' usefulness due to number difference.

I don't see how they can win.

Ninja of Cao 01-04-2013 03:45 PM

Re: Mordor vs Isengard
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 321zigzag3 (Post 6410720)
In the book Gandalf said Isengard cannot fight Mordor without the ring of power.

Even with 10,000 Uruk Hai vs how many multipled Mordor orcs + the Ringwraiths + plus trolls.
Not sure on the other Isengard followers' usefulness due to number difference.

I don't see how they can win.

As I said, it is a close match. But Saruman's powers and the fact that Isengard is on the defensive may turn the tide in their favor. After all, the Orcs are "only" 10 times more numerous than the Uruk-hai, and I think that at least 5 Orcs will die to kill a single Uruk-hai warrior... and the Warg cavalry are not to be underestimated (but I understand if you have doubts about the Wildmen... they looked like stone-age cavemen in the movie...).
But of course Mordor could also win this... I just don't like choosing "tied" as an option.

ItachiKisame 01-04-2013 03:48 PM

Re: Mordor vs Isengard
 
Definently Mordor there are way more orcs and there are trolls and also humans with those massive mumukils which are giant elephants and the rings wraths which can't be killed unless the ring is destroyed like Sauron although the Witch King had some curse on him which was the only reason he died by Mary and Eowen's blades not sure if its just him could be since it wasn't said for the other wraths.

Isengard did have some decent orcs and they had some decent weapons and armor though Mordor had more stuff like catapolts and more.

Ninja of Cao 01-04-2013 03:50 PM

Re: Mordor vs Isengard
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ItachiKisame (Post 6410733)
Definently Mordor there are way more orcs and there are trolls and also humans with those massive mumukils which are giant elephants and the rings wraths which can't be killed unless the ring is destroyed like Sauron although the Witch King had some curse on him which was the only reason he died by Mary and Eowen's blades not sure if its just him could be since it wasn't said for the other wraths.

Isengard did have some decent orcs and they had some decent weapons and armor though Mordor had more stuff like catapolts and more.

Those were men of Harad and Rhun, not Mordor, so they are not taken into account here.

ItachiKisame 01-04-2013 03:51 PM

Re: Mordor vs Isengard
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja of Cao (Post 6410738)
Those were men of Harad and Rhun, not Mordor, so they are not taken into account here.

I know that but they were still on Mordor's side so I say they count.

Ninja of Cao 01-04-2013 03:57 PM

Re: Mordor vs Isengard
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ItachiKisame (Post 6410740)
I know that but they were still on Mordor's side so I say they count.

Well, for this battle it is only Mordor's "national" army (Isengard was also an ally of Mordor, but I can't take them into account against themselves :p). And it would make the battle too uneven if I added the power of Harad and Rhun into account - only the forces included in the "army setup" section is included, plus a few pieces of artillery on both sides.

ItachiKisame 01-04-2013 04:03 PM

Re: Mordor vs Isengard
 
It is true Isengard was on Mordor's side as well though they were still two seperate armies they were never joined together in two armies though the men of Harad and places close to it were. And sure it might not be a fare fight between both sides if the men were added but then wars aren't really supposed to be fair.:p Well I don't really know all the stuff each side would have if they go against each other I just know Mordor would win either way.

The Immortal Watch Dog 01-04-2013 04:06 PM

Re: Mordor vs Isengard
 
This is not a close match this is a slaughter especially since Sauron knows he's coming

hard fought fight..but Saruman goes down especially considering Sauron will fight him

Ninja of Cao 01-04-2013 04:06 PM

Re: Mordor vs Isengard
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ItachiKisame (Post 6410766)
It is true Isengard was on Mordor's side as well though they were still two seperate armies they were never joined together in two armies though the men of Harad and places close to it were. And sure it might not be a fare fight between both sides if the men were added but then wars aren't really supposed to be fair.:p Well I don't really know all the stuff each side would have if they go against each other I just know Mordor would win either way.

Guess what? Out of all factions in Lord of the Rings, Harad and Rhun (the two that were shown the least...) are my favorites :p
I love those Rhunnic soldiers who march through the Black Gate in the Two Towers `:shock:
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog (Post 6410770)
This is not a close match this is a slaughter especially since Sauron knows he's coming

hard fought fight..but Saruman goes down especially considering Sauron will fight him

But how can Sauron fight him? He is not physical in this scenario; it is the Mouth of Sauron and the Witch-king of Angmar commanding Sauron's forces for this battle.

The Immortal Watch Dog 01-04-2013 04:07 PM

Re: Mordor vs Isengard
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja of Cao (Post 6410738)
Those were men of Harad and Rhun, not Mordor, so they are not taken into account here.

they are apart of Saurons Empire

the east was almost entirely under his control politically for tens of thousands of years

they are coming no matter what

ItachiKisame 01-04-2013 04:11 PM

Re: Mordor vs Isengard
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja of Cao (Post 6410773)
Guess what? Out of all factions in Lord of the Rings, Harad and Rhun (the two that were shown the least...) are my favorites :p
I love those Rhunnic soldiers who march through the Black Gate in the Two Towers `:shock:

But how can Sauron fight him? He is not physical in this scenario; it is the Mouth of Sauron and the Witch-king of Angmar commanding Sauron's forces for this battle.

I see thats cool they were a tough army with the mumukils and all.

Yeah they did look cool kinda sucked they didn't show them in any fights.>.>

Ninja of Cao 01-04-2013 04:14 PM

Re: Mordor vs Isengard
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog (Post 6410780)
they are apart of Saurons Empire

the east was almost entirely under his control politically for tens of thousands of years

they are coming no matter what

Well... maybe they're quelling rebellions or have been weakened by crushing Gondor and Rohan, I don't know... I just thought it would be too much of an overkill for Mordor if I gave them the Haradrim and Rhunnic forces for support.
Quote:

Originally Posted by ItachiKisame (Post 6410784)
I see thats cool they were a tough army with the mumukils and all.

Yeah they did look cool kinda sucked they didn't show them in any fights.>.>

The Rhunnic soldiers were visible in the siege of Minas Tirith, but you never really saw one of them killing an enemy, or dying in combat. However, in one of my favorite mods (called "Third Age: Total War", a mod for "Medieval 2: Total War"), I always play as Rhun or Harad. And they are awesome `:D

ItachiKisame 01-04-2013 04:16 PM

Re: Mordor vs Isengard
 
I don't remember ever seeing them even in the extended version I only seen the ones from the south. I know I seen them in some games I played but never in the movies.

The Immortal Watch Dog 01-04-2013 04:19 PM

Re: Mordor vs Isengard
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja of Cao (Post 6410773)
But how can Sauron fight him? He is not physical in this scenario; it is the Mouth of Sauron and the Witch-king of Angmar commanding Sauron's forces for this battle.

Why is Sauron a ghost?

by the war of the rings period he'd had a physical body for like a thousand years

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja of Cao (Post 6410790)
Well... maybe they're quelling rebellions or have been weakened by crushing Gondor and Rohan, I don't know... I just thought it would be too much of an overkill for Mordor if I gave them the Haradrim and Rhunnic forces for support.

they were less in number then in the second age or in the first when they were allied to Melkor and not Sauron (he was Saurons master) the blue wizards possibly freed a lot of the east from his lordship

but they were still a large force..essentially all of the fertile crescent to frontier of China was all under dominion of Sauron

Ninja of Cao 01-04-2013 04:26 PM

Re: Mordor vs Isengard
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ItachiKisame (Post 6410793)
I don't remember ever seeing them even in the extended version I only seen the ones from the south. I know I seen them in some games I played but never in the movies.

If you zoom into the Mordor forces in some scenes, you see Rhunnic axemen/halberdiers charging along with the Orc. But it's like 1 soldier out of 50, so it requires a high screen resolution and good zoom abilities. But trust me; they're there.
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Immortal Watch Dog (Post 6410800)
Why is Sauron a ghost?

by the war of the rings period he'd had a physical body for like a thousand years



they were less in number then in the second age or in the first when they were allied to Melkor and not Sauron (he was Saurons master) the blue wizards possibly freed a lot of the east from his lordship

but they were still a large force..essentially all of the fertile crescent to frontier of China was all under dominion of Sauron

Did he have a physical body in the War of the Rings period? :shock: I thought he was just a big, burning eye...

ItachiKisame 01-04-2013 04:28 PM

Re: Mordor vs Isengard
 
Well then I guess i'll have to pay close attention next time.

Obito 01-04-2013 04:32 PM

Re: Mordor vs Isengard
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja of Cao (Post 6410709)
The two strongest factions of the "evil" side in the Lord of the Rings universe. But which one would win if they went to war against each other? The enormous Orc hordes of Mordor and its immortal Ringwraiths, or the mighty Uruk-hai forces of Isengard under The White Wizard?



Scenario: With no forces of Good left in this world, Saruman sees his chance to conquer Middle Earth by himself and betrays the forces of Sauron. But this action has been foreseen by the Dark Lord, who sends the full armed might of Mordor to attack the fortress of Isengard. A siege begins, where the two great nations of evil battle each other to the end.


Comparison:
Spoiler:

Statistics Mordor Isengard
Army size: 100,209 20,000
Fortifications: Barad-dur Isengard
Kings: Mouth of SauronSaruman
Field commanders: Witch-king of Angmar Lurtz
Army setup:

Mordor
100,000 Orcs
200 Trolls
9 Nazguls, including the Witch-king of Angmar

Isengard
10,000 Uruk-hai
2,000 Warg riders
2,000 goblins
6,000 Dunlending wildmen
1 wizard (Saruman)

My own conclusion:
Spoiler:

I am no expert on Lord of the Rings, as I have only watched the movies and gained limited knowledge from the official LOTR wiki. But I know that the nine Nazguls are very powerful, especially with the Witch-king of Angmar commanding them. However, the White Wizard should prove a match for them even if they attack altogether (I don't know if he is stronger, though; that is up to someone else to tell me). So with my limited knowledge of the magical fighters, let us look at the armies: Mordor has a definite advantage in manpower, but Uruk-hai are far superior to Orcs, not to mention that Saruman has access to cavalry in the shape of Warg riders. But on the other hand, Mordor has brought 200 Trolls to the battlefield. 2,000 Warg riders vs. 200 Trolls... uncertain. In the end I think that Isengard will win only because they are on the defensive and has utterly superior infantry, plus a powerful wizard commanding them. I mean, the Orcs cannot utilize their massive numbers effectively while besieging Isengard and will have to break down the gates or small areas of the walls, which can easily be defended by a massive Uruk-hai spear formation. And even though the Nazguls are powerful, we shouldn't underestimate a thousands of years old wizard who can obviously create enormous storms just by shouting at the sky...
Final conclusion: Isengard wins, but it will be difficult.

You played Battle for Middle Earth haven't you? :3 YES YOU HAVE.

321zigzag3 01-04-2013 04:34 PM

Re: Mordor vs Isengard
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja of Cao (Post 6410811)
Did he have a physical body in the War of the Rings period? :shock: I thought he was just a big, burning eye...

You know that Giant Troll vs Aragorn scene in the end?

That troll was supposed to be Sauron but they replaced it with the troll.
Sauron did have a physical by the end. He had recovered enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja of Cao (Post 6410729)
As I said, it is a close match.

So what about Gandalf's statement in the book?

Ninja of Cao 01-04-2013 04:34 PM

Re: Mordor vs Isengard
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Obito (Post 6410827)
You played Battle for Middle Earth haven't you? :3 YES YOU HAVE.

To be honest... no. I have not. The only Lord of the Rings game I have played is a mod called Third Age: Total War (which is added to Medieval 2: Total War by download). But it is a great mod `:D
Quote:

Originally Posted by 321zigzag3 (Post 6410831)
You know that Giant Troll vs Aragorn scene in the end?


That troll was supposed to be Sauron but they replaced it with the troll.
Sauron did have a physical by the end. He had recovered enough.




So what about Gandalf's statement in the book?

So they replaced Sauron... with a troll...? `:shock:

I did not know that... but I still not wish him to personally lead this attack, as it would be overpowered. Isengard must be given some chances for victory, after all. Otherwise it is not a worthy comparison to make.


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