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Ninja of Cao 01-02-2013 03:10 AM

Rohan vs Gondor
 
The two strongest factions of the "good" side in the Lord of the Rings universe. But which nation would win if they went to war against each other? The unstoppable cavalry forces of the Rohirrim, or the mighty kingdom of Gondor?



Scenario: After the death of Boromir, the mentally unstable Steward of Gondor Denethor II orders an invasion of Rohan, blaming the Rohirrim for his son's death. Gondor sends its full armed might into the lands of Rohan, accompanied by heavy siege engines.

Comparison:
Spoiler:

Statistics Rohan Gondor
Army size: 6,000 17,000
Primary force: Cavalry (95%) Infantry (90%)
Fortifications: Helm's Deep Minas Tirith
Kings: Theoden Denethor II
Field commanders: Eomer Faramir

My own conclusion:
Spoiler:

This is a close one... Gondor has a larger army, better fortifications and access to trebuchets and catapults (something that Rohan lacks completely). Rohan on the other hand has superior cavalry, more skilled soldiers overall and a warrior king beloved by his people - the Steward of Gondor is psychologically unstable and can hardly command an army into battle effectively. Rohan's capital is weakly protected, but should the Rohirrim retreat to Helm's Deep I don't think that the army of Gondor could win despite their artillery. The Gondorian forces will be beaten back to Minas Tirith, but I don't think that Rohan can take the city... after all, they lack artillery. So in the end I think that Rohan will win because of superior leadership and by being on the defensive. They will not be able to conquer Minas Tirith, though.
Final conclusion: Rohan wins.

Bacon 01-02-2013 04:13 AM

Re: Rohan vs Gondor
 
I agree to some point,but it's ultimately a stalemate.

Gondor doesn't have the sheer military man power to transport their trebuchets all the way to minas tirith, yet alone the river before mordor. Their rangers have proven themselves strong enough to repel the forces of mordor until they commited balls deep in the third movie. Using a combination of terrain advantage(aka home turf) combined with the impregnable mountain city, gondor could easily handle a military occupation by rohan.

On the other hand

Gondor doesn't have a snowball's chance of winning a head to head fight on rohan's soil or out in the open, in general. Less than two thousand rohirim clashed with 10000 isengard orcs and crushed them. Monsters who are physically superior in every way, getting their asses handed to them. So to say that gondor even has a chance to invade or win head on is just silly

That said

Unless both sides are devoid of logic and willing to go to any lengths to kill the other without a second thought, Rohan would win. If they retain their sanity, then it becomes an entrenched guerrilla war where no one comes out on top.

321zigzag3 01-02-2013 07:53 AM

Re: Rohan vs Gondor
 
Bacon's analysis seems to have this one spot on. Although I would like to hear other opinions.

I am pretty much feel this will be much of stalemate in the end. Its hard to imagine guerilla warfare for Gondor though.
There was that one scene when a regiment took down an Oliphaunt squad.

Ninja of Cao 01-02-2013 08:55 AM

Re: Rohan vs Gondor
 
But honestly, if it comes down to siege warfare Gondor is much more able to defeat their opponent's main fortress (Helm's Deep is not as large as Minas Tirith, not to mention that Gondor has trebuchets/catapults while Rohan has completely neglected siege warfare). We are basically comparing a siege army that is weak in the field against a mighty field army that can't do sieges (seriously, I think that a single Rohan rider is more than twice or even thrice as skilled as a Gondorian soldier - not to mention that cavalry gets an automatic bonus against infantry, with the exception of pikemen).

Bacon 01-02-2013 09:16 AM

Re: Rohan vs Gondor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 321zigzag3 (Post 6407203)
Bacon's analysis seems to have this one spot on. Although I would like to hear other opinions.

I am pretty much feel this will be much of stalemate in the end. Its hard to imagine guerilla warfare for Gondor though.
There was that one scene when a regiment took down an Oliphaunt squad.

Not sure what an Oliphaunt is(THAT BIG MAMMOTH?),but I'd consider that as guerrilla as it gets.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja of Cao (Post 6407248)
But honestly, if it comes down to siege warfare Gondor is much more able to defeat their opponent's main fortress (Helm's Deep is not as large as Minas Tirith, not to mention that Gondor has trebuchets/catapults while Rohan has completely neglected siege warfare). We are basically comparing a siege army that is weak in the field against a mighty field army that can't do sieges (seriously, I think that a single Rohan rider is more than twice or even thrice as skilled as a Gondorian soldier - not to mention that cavalry gets an automatic bonus against infantry, with the exception of pikemen).

Rohan doesn't have a main fortress like Gondor. They could lose their capital city and still go on fighting. It wouldn't take anymore than a few well placed torches to burn down edoras. As I was saying, the moment gondor leaves it fortress to go head to head with rohan, is the moment they seal their fate.

Ninja of Cao 01-02-2013 09:22 AM

Re: Rohan vs Gondor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacon (Post 6407308)
Not sure what an Oliphaunt is(THAT BIG MAMMOTH?),but I'd consider that as guerrilla as it gets.

Rohan doesn't have a main fortress like Gondor. They could lose their capital city and still go on fighting. It wouldn't take anymore than a few well placed torches to burn down edoras. As I was saying, the moment gondor leaves it fortress to go head to head with rohan, is the moment they seal their fate.

But if the Rohirrim retreat to Helm's Deep, I think that the result will be different.

But I agree with you; Gondor has no chance in the open field regardless of their superior manpower.

Bacon 01-02-2013 09:41 AM

Re: Rohan vs Gondor
 
So you're asking for a scenario where rohan is in helm's deep and gondor has everything laying siege to rohan? While disregarding manpower,the upkeep of occupation, weather, etc etc?

Then yea gondor under those unrealistic circumstance would win since rohan's strength is fighting through their calvary. :lol:

Godaime Kazekage 01-02-2013 10:29 AM

Re: Rohan vs Gondor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja of Cao (Post 6407156)
The two strongest factions of the "good" side in the Lord of the Rings universe.

No, no, no, no, no.

On topic: Bacon's got a pretty good analysis-I don't really have anything to add that hasn't already been said.

321zigzag3 01-02-2013 10:43 AM

Q
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacon (Post 6407308)
Not sure what an Oliphaunt is(THAT BIG MAMMOTH?),but I'd consider that as guerrilla as it gets.

Yep.

Quote:

Rohan doesn't have a main fortress like Gondor. They could lose their capital city and still go on fighting. It wouldn't take anymore than a few well placed torches to burn down edoras. As I was saying, the moment gondor leaves it fortress to go head to head with rohan, is the moment they seal their fate.
The key to defeating Rohan was to destroy the people and villages. Especially the former.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Ninja of Cao (Post 6407323)
But if the Rohirrim retreat to Helm's Deep, I think that the result will be different.

Well what would happen if the few thousand strong Rohan was able to flank them when Gondor is at Helms deep?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Godaime Kazekage (Post 6407373)
No, no, no, no, no.

yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Spoiler:
Sorry, couldn't resist

Bacon 01-02-2013 11:37 AM

Re: Rohan vs Gondor
 
Quote:

The key to defeating Rohan was to destroy the people and villages. Especially the former.
Isn't that the case for conquering any civilization?

Except the part about edoras. All other factors void, what makes a shabby looking hill city so important?

321zigzag3 01-02-2013 01:13 PM

Re: Rohan vs Gondor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacon (Post 6407421)
Isn't that the case for conquering any civilization?

Yes well sort of but it also depends on your overall objective.

Quote:

Except the part about edoras. All other factors void, what makes a shabby looking hill city so important?
Its the "capital" of Rohan. THe only real city in Rohan minus maybe one and helms deep which is only a fortification. Rohan is very rural and filled with small villages.

Bacon 01-02-2013 02:08 PM

Re: Rohan vs Gondor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 321zigzag3 (Post 6407570)
Yes well sort of but it also depends on your overall objective.



Its the "capital" of Rohan. THe only real city in Rohan minus maybe one and helms deep which is only a fortification. Rohan is very rural and filled with small villages.

I understand there may be some sort of symbolic meaning to the only real city in rohan,but it obviously wasn't worth defending if they fled for helm's deep.

Meanwhile I disagree with helm's deep being only a fortification. It was renowned as an impenetrable fortress, a symbol of hope, final resort and the last stand of a country.

Yes you can say that helm's deep offered more protection,but then again, Edoras could have just been the king's home. While gondor pooled everything it had into one concentrated point(Minas tirith), Rohan was more scattered and nomadic in some ways. They had no ties to their homes other than the fields they cultivated and roof over their heads.

Jakropha 01-02-2013 02:14 PM

Re: Rohan vs Gondor
 
This scenario is entirely unlikely!

Osgiliath was already besieged by the time Rohan even set out.
Gondor would be crushed.
Assuming this happened before Osgiliath was doomed, Orc army would destroy Gondor anyway.

Rohan > Gondor in open battle

Only way Gondor could win, is if it was at it's full potential, with all military, and had the jump on Rohan using the Palintir that the steward had.

Also, Faramir wouldn't condone such an action, he would completely advice against such a scenario, so would 99% of the Gondorian military :lol:
Denethor's likely hit would be Aragorn, and we all know how that would have ended.

Bacon 01-02-2013 02:17 PM

Re: Rohan vs Gondor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakropha (Post 6407614)
This scenario is entirely unlikely!

Osgiliath was already besieged by the time Rohan even set out.
Gondor would be crushed.
Assuming this happened before Osgiliath was doomed, Orc army would destroy Gondor anyway.

Rohan > Gondor in open battle

Only way Gondor could win, is if it was at it's full potential, with all military, and had the jump on Rohan using the Palintir that the steward had.

Also, Faramir wouldn't condone such an action, he would completely advice against such a scenario, so would 99% of the Gondorian military :lol:
Denethor's likely hit would be Aragorn, and we all know how that would have ended.

PRetend like they hate eachother D:

Jakropha 01-02-2013 02:32 PM

Re: Rohan vs Gondor
 
Also, either company would be ragestomped by Witch King + Gothmog army :lol:

neither side really wins unless they get their acts together, even in the book, they still came close to both losing.
Thank the Smeagol that we the humans won!!

321zigzag3 01-02-2013 03:16 PM

Re: Rohan vs Gondor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacon (Post 6407609)
I understand there may be some sort of symbolic meaning to the only real city in rohan,but it obviously wasn't worth defending if they fled for helm's deep.

I don't think there was an actual symbolic meaning minus the whole king ancestral ground.

Quote:

Meanwhile I disagree with helm's deep being only a fortification. It was renowned as an impenetrable fortress, a symbol of hope, final resort and the last stand of a country.
Oh I wasn't saying it was just only a fortified place.

Quote:

They had no ties to their homes other than the fields they cultivated and roof over their heads.
And their precious horses.:ugeek:

The Immortal Watch Dog 01-02-2013 04:41 PM

Re: Rohan vs Gondor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakropha (Post 6407646)
Also, either company would be ragestomped by Witch King + Gothmog army :lol:

neither side really wins unless they get their acts together, even in the book, they still came close to both losing.
Thank the Smeagol that we the humans won!!

Also this

seriously the Witch King had spirit aura of fear that paralyzed all fighting across the entire battle field. He was making people go insane and commit suicide by having his second in command fly above them..and he had poison breath..oh and animals had fatal fear induced heart attacks when he was near them.

Come to think of it Theodins elite guard went completely insane and killed themselves out of fear and despair when he rode up on them in battle

and despite all this Gandalf took him and seven other ring wraiths on and curbstomped them and chased them away and Glorfindale was so powerful they avoided him on site when he was carrying Frodo on his horse (because he was an elf who killed a balrog)

oh and Elrond LOL pwned all nine of them from about twelve miles away with a gesture by throwing an entire river at them.

Seriously scary just how "little" the humans really were compared to the major powers of the world and just how freaking brave they had to be to fight with monsters like that around them

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacon (Post 6407421)
Isn't that the case for conquering any civilization?

Except the part about edoras. All other factors void, what makes a shabby looking hill city so important?


The problem is there is absolutely no way for Rohan to take Minas tirith or any major Gondorian strong hold

Gondor still had a very strong population of Numenorian hybrids and superior technology.

Also since primary canon is the books and Ninja never specified..Dennethor can perfectly read minds..and even dominate telepathically to some extent. He even participated in the white councils siege of Dol Ghuldur during the hobbit and this was primarily a battle where Galadriel, Gandalf and Denethor telepathically assaulted the god of mind rape While Saruman went around exploding and voice raping all of his stronger fodder and spiders in the area.

Denethor IIRC telepathically held back Sauron through the Palantir for fifty years (this is basically what aged him prematurely and drove him insane)

So can Faramir and Denethors brother

this isn't good..Theodin got subverted by Grima he's up against someone who actively battled Sauron on a mental scale for years..seeing inside Theodibns mind and raping the guys tactics right out of his head and outright dominating the lesser Rohirim is entirely doable

Basically Rohan opens the war with a lot of victories if Theodin can't force Dennethor to the table (and this maybe a disaster for him even if he does for the aforementioned reasons) but eventually runs into laying siege to Minas Tirith or something and that pretty much breaks his army right there and its all down hill for him

321zigzag3 01-02-2013 05:40 PM

Re: Rohan vs Gondor
 
You keep impressing me with this rare LOTR lore.

I hope the Hobbit film series shows the Don Goldur accurately then.
Was the mental assault pivotal in that siege?

The Immortal Watch Dog 01-02-2013 06:31 PM

Re: Rohan vs Gondor
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 321zigzag3 (Post 6407855)
You keep impressing me with this rare LOTR lore.

I hope the Hobbit film series shows the Don Goldur accurately then.
Was the mental assault pivotal in that siege?

Saruman was the one who turned the tide but if it wasn't for that mental assault Sauron likely would have been able to engage the white wizard directly

Galadriel completely destroys the fortress with her own power and slaughters all the dark things there after sauron high tailed it

Basically Denethor who struggled with depression and an inferiority complex all his life who was still a young man (dude was in his 20's young by our standards and still a teenager by dundein standards) mustered up the courage and power to participate in a mental battle alongside some of the most powerful minds ever to exist

He did this and likely without the mind team dol ghuldor would have been a defeat which is amazing because Galadriel asked for him over Cirdan the oldest living elf who was a mebtal powerhouse himself

To sum it up: the mental assault was critical to sarumans being able to turn the tide


Then he was skilled enough to use a palantir to spy on sauron read his mind and he did this for almost five decades

He was a terrible dad- but considering his personal problems he's really a remarkable character

Theodin would be a toy to hin

Bacon 01-03-2013 03:44 AM

Re: Rohan vs Gondor
 
Quote:

The problem is there is absolutely no way for Rohan to take Minas tirith or any major Gondorian strong hold
>_>

Which is why I believed it was a draw unless gondor got some crazy idea thinking they could fight outside of their fortifications.

As for this whole mind rape shiz, ._.

Guess the ignorance of said lore is my punishment for only watching the movies and half halfheartedly reading the books.


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