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-   -   Multiverse: Urahara Kisuke vs The Five Kages (http://forum.naruto.viz.com/showthread.php?t=122218)

Ba_bamBam 11-01-2012 02:07 PM

Urahara Kisuke vs The Five Kages
 
STARTING DISTANCE: 100 meters
LOCATION: Urahara's basement
WEATHER: Average
TIME OF DAY: Noon

Only use feats we have seen in the manga

Scenario 1 : Regular all out battle. No prep or knowledge of one anothers abilities

EDIT - Since this is dragging on a bit on one scenario I'll take the others out so we can focus on one.

JLI2infinity 11-02-2012 03:41 PM

Re: Urahara Kisuke vs Five Kage
 
The Bleachverse is naturally higher tier than the Narutoverse so Urahara has some great advantages but unfortunately these are the highest tier speedsters and busters of the shinobi world. I don't know if Urahara has the reaction time to avoid A for very long, I definitely don't think he'd be speedblitzed thanks to things like shunpo and his substitute but A is constantly placing the pressure on him, eventually he's bound to make a mistake and back into one of Tsunade's punches or into Onoki's grasp or onto Gaara's sand. The five Kages alone are enough to win this fight. Thanks to the nature of the Bleach universe almost all the characters fight at close range and only a select few characters have legitimate defensive techniques, everyone else just powers their reiatsu up DBZ style until they can no longer be cut or use their speed to dodge attacks.

Vatanui AKA Pride 11-02-2012 06:39 PM

Re: Urahara Kisuke vs Five Kage
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity (Post 6322252)
The Bleachverse is naturally higher tier than the Narutoverse so Urahara has some great advantages but unfortunately these are the highest tier speedsters and busters of the shinobi world. I don't know if Urahara has the reaction time to avoid A for very long, I definitely don't think he'd be speedblitzed thanks to things like shunpo and his substitute but A is constantly placing the pressure on him, eventually he's bound to make a mistake and back into one of Tsunade's punches or into Onoki's grasp or onto Gaara's sand. The five Kages alone are enough to win this fight. Thanks to the nature of the Bleach universe almost all the characters fight at close range and only a select few characters have legitimate defensive techniques, everyone else just powers their reiatsu up DBZ style until they can no longer be cut or use their speed to dodge attacks.

Uruhara was able to keep up with cocoon Aizen, who is a hypersonic speedster. In other words, someone who's easily able to blitzkrieg A within a matter of seconds.

Preparation time. Kidou. Uruhara has proven to be the Batman of his universe. And it's not like he has zero durability either. I'm sure that he'll be able to at least tank more than just a couple of Tsunade's punches.

Every character in Bleach possesses a mid or long-range attack of some sort. Try to convince me, or better yet, prove that there isn't one.

Ba_bamBam 11-02-2012 06:40 PM

Re: Urahara Kisuke vs The Five Kages
 
Well actually in the majority of Urahara's fights he has been seen as a ranged fighter rather than a close ranged fighter. Well Urahara was capable of blowing up a gigai AFTER Yammy blasted a bala at him and then SWITCH places with it before the bala even hit him. The bala was stated to be 20x faster than a cero.


Not only that but he was so fast that he was capable of blowing up a gigai in the midst of a fight with aizen and switch places with it AND appear behind Aizen all without AIZEN ever realizing it till that point. Aizen who completed obilerated over a dozen captains/vice captains/vizards without any of them being able to put a scratch on him. The likes of Shunsui, Shinji, Soifon and Hitsugaya couldn't even touch him. He blitz the crap out of the 4 of them in an instant and slayed them and Urahara is capable of keeping up with a guy like that.

His Benehime gives his advantages in defence as he's capable of making a shield out of it shown early in the manga. He's also been shown sparing with Yoruichi during the Pendulum Arc or whatever it was called and even forced Yoruichi to get serious many times.

That shows he's capable of even fighting on pair with someone who is the bleach equivalent of Raikage in Naruto (physical, hand to hand combat). Plus he was capable of using high level kido's like no tomorrow in his fight with aizen which should be able to bind the Kage's enough for him to focus on certain Kages for a few.

JLI2infinity 11-04-2012 06:15 AM

Re: Urahara Kisuke vs The Five Kages
 
I never said A blitzes him. Didn't mention that happening once. And I'm aware that he has long range techniques as a matter of fact he's one of the few fighters who's actually performed a combat sequence at a distance, but my point is that his weapon is for melee purposes. Most Bleach combatants fight at close range. With regards to pure speed yes Urahara should be able to keep up with A but this is about reaction times. And A's are supposed to be on par with Minato's who's reactions are high tier even in the Bleachverse.

I'm well aware that Yoruichi is probably even faster than A and so Urahara should be able to do fairly well in a fight, this is why I didn't have him getting knocked out or anything but Yoruichi was still able to pressure him when she got serious, and that's all I have A doing. And A isn't the type to take it easy on any opponent. For all intents and purposes A performs similar to Yoruichi in this scenario, which gives Urahara no room to breath.

The fact that Urahara tanked a hit from Aizen is an amazing durability feat but it wasn't a direct blow. Urahara said if he didn't use Benihime he would've lost an arm to Ichigo's shikai Getsuga Tensho which did some pretty impressive damage but Tsunade has trumped that kind of destructive power with a casual fist. When she first encountered Oro, Kabuto said something snide, she threatened to lose her temper and without even taking a fighting stance or gaining any momentum she slammed her hand against the wall and turned like 1/4 of a castle into rubble.

The only strength feats I've seen in Bleach to match hers come from Isshin flicking Aizen through buildings, Yoruichi sending hundreds of punches into Aizen, Yammy throwing Rukia so hard she couldn't even move from the air resistance, Kensei punching Wonderweiss through a building, Ulquiorra and Vasto Lorde Ichigo's fight, and FGT Ichigo throwing Aizen through the desert.

I haven't mentioned Gaara in this scenario either and he can pretty much defend against all of Urahara's attacks. The biggest weakness for Urahara here is that we've never seen him fight to his full potential so his feats are limited. He has nothing close to the destructive scale of Second Mizukage's Jouki Boy and so he isn't getting through Gaara's guard at all.

Ba_bamBam 11-04-2012 07:25 AM

Re: Urahara Kisuke vs The Five Kages
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity (Post 6324647)
I never said A blitzes him. Didn't mention that happening once. And I'm aware that he has long range techniques as a matter of fact he's one of the few fighters who's actually performed a combat sequence at a distance, but my point is that his weapon is for melee purposes. Most Bleach combatants fight at close range. With regards to pure speed yes Urahara should be able to keep up with A but this is about reaction times. And A's are supposed to be on par with Minato's who's reactions are high tier even in the Bleachverse.

I'm well aware that Yoruichi is probably even faster than A and so Urahara should be able to do fairly well in a fight, this is why I didn't have him getting knocked out or anything but Yoruichi was still able to pressure him when she got serious, and that's all I have A doing. And A isn't the type to take it easy on any opponent. For all intents and purposes A performs similar to Yoruichi in this scenario, which gives Urahara no room to breath.

I know you didn't say that. The only reason I mentioned that is because you can't exactly pressure someone who is way out of your league in terms of speed. It won't be doing much, it's like playing tag with a dog. You can't catch him and he's out of your league and runs around like he's just teasing.

What you said on the last line makes you sound like you're saying A and Yoruichi are on par with each other.
Let me reiterate what you said.
"Because A and Yoruichi have the same fighting style, it doesn't matter if Yoruichi is way above A in every category. Because Yoruichi can pressure Urahara who is on the same level as Yoruichi, A can do the same"
That's what you made it out to sound like.

1 - Yoruichi and A are not on the same level


2 - Just because Yoruichi can pressure Urahara doesn't mean jack for A being able to do the same just because their fighting styles are similar


3 - I know A isn't the type to take it easy on any opponent. But in a situation where it is a one on one fight (let's just say for this moment right now only) A fighting Urahara is like Ishida and Renji vs Szayelaporro(espada 8). They're both on completely different levels which results in Szayelaporro toying with Ishida and Renji as if they were fodder. I know A isn't fodder to Urahara but neither is he an "exceptional" challenge to Urahara no more than Yammy was to him.


Quote:

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity (Post 6324647)
The fact that Urahara tanked a hit from Aizen is an amazing durability feat but it wasn't a direct blow. Urahara said if he didn't use Benihime he would've lost an arm to Ichigo's shikai Getsuga Tensho which did some pretty impressive damage but Tsunade has trumped that kind of destructive power with a casual fist. When she first encountered Oro, Kabuto said something snide, she threatened to lose her temper and without even taking a fighting stance or gaining any momentum she slammed her hand against the wall and turned like 1/4 of a castle into rubble.



1 - Just because Tsunade has the physical strength to possibly cause some damage, doesn't mean she can REACH him or MAKE CONTACT with him.
Tsunade out of all the kages in Naruto is probably the crappiest because of her lack in every other category other than strength and medicine. Her durability and endurance is quite impressive in Naruto standards, but isn't exactly top or high tier in bleach standards

2 - You're also admitting that his shield was capable of protecting himself against an attack that did pretty impressive damage (mind, I'm not making up BS, just reiterating what you said).

3 - You're also admitting that he has high durability

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity (Post 6324647)

The only strength feats I've seen in Bleach to match hers come from Isshin flicking Aizen through buildings, Yoruichi sending hundreds of punches into Aizen, Yammy throwing Rukia so hard she couldn't even move from the air resistance, Kensei punching Wonderweiss through a building, Ulquiorra and Vasto Lorde Ichigo's fight, and FGT Ichigo throwing Aizen through the desert.

1 - What you have listed there, are all strength feats that surpass anything in Naruto has to show by a mile, so thank you

2 - No one in Naruto has comparable strength feats to any you have mentioned

3 - A's strength feats and Tsunades are punching through walls which ARE NOT equivalent to multiple buildings in Bleach

4 - Yammamoto punched Wonderweiss so hard with his Sukkotsu attack that he disintegrated into smaller pieces. Mind you that it was a physical attack and there were no other mechanics behind it.


Quote:

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity (Post 6324647)
I haven't mentioned Gaara in this scenario either and he can pretty much defend against all of Urahara's attacks. The biggest weakness for Urahara here is that we've never seen him fight to his full potential so his feats are limited. He has nothing close to the destructive scale of Second Mizukage's Jouki Boy and so he isn't getting through Gaara's guard at all.

1 - Yes, Gaara can defend against an attack from Urahara and Urahara has nothing close to the destructive scale of Second Mizukages Jouki Boy as you can see with one of Urahara's techniques Hiasobi, Benihime, Juzutsunagi in Chapter 405 page 19-20 and Hado #91 - Chapter 402 pages 12-13.
Yea he has nothing close to the destructive scale of the Second Mizukage
That last one may have seemed like an attack that doesn't offer much, but that was only because it was done in the air, therefore no destruction could be seen or done
Also those first few words are sarcastic.

2 - You also make it out to sound like Urahara is just gonna spam attacks at Gaara from straight on. Urahara can as easily as the snake he is blitz Gaara who isn't impressive at all with his reactions.

Noctis Arashi 11-04-2012 08:46 AM

Re: Urahara Kisuke vs The Five Kages
 
Keep in mind, all of this has been done in shikai or base. We haven't even seen a bankai.

JLI2infinity 11-04-2012 01:44 PM

Re: Urahara Kisuke vs The Five Kages
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ba_bamBam (Post 6324676)
I know you didn't say that. The only reason I mentioned that is because you can't exactly pressure someone who is way out of your league in terms of speed. It won't be doing much, it's like playing tag with a dog. You can't catch him and he's out of your league and runs around like he's just teasing.

What you said on the last line makes you sound like you're saying A and Yoruichi are on par with each other.
Let me reiterate what you said.
"Because A and Yoruichi have the same fighting style, it doesn't matter if Yoruichi is way above A in every category. Because Yoruichi can pressure Urahara who is on the same level as Yoruichi, A can do the same"
That's what you made it out to sound like.

1 - Yoruichi and A are not on the same level


2 - Just because Yoruichi can pressure Urahara doesn't mean jack for A being able to do the same just because their fighting styles are similar


3 - I know A isn't the type to take it easy on any opponent. But in a situation where it is a one on one fight (let's just say for this moment right now only) A fighting Urahara is like Ishida and Renji vs Szayelaporro(espada 8). They're both on completely different levels which results in Szayelaporro toying with Ishida and Renji as if they were fodder. I know A isn't fodder to Urahara but neither is he an "exceptional" challenge to Urahara no more than Yammy was to him.

Ok seriously are we going to have to break out speed calcs because I really don't want to. The only reason I believe Yoruichi is faster than A is because she can move at his high speed for a long distance but I really don't understand how you've concluded that there is some huge difference in their instantaneous speed. Yammy's speed is not even close to A's. A instantaneously appeared in front of the fastest character in the Narutoverse. Yammy got his arm cut off by Ichigo before he could even move, neither reaction time nor movement speed are comparable.



Quote:

1 - Just because Tsunade has the physical strength to possibly cause some damage, doesn't mean she can REACH him or MAKE CONTACT with him.
Tsunade out of all the kages in Naruto is probably the crappiest because of her lack in every other category other than strength and medicine. Her durability and endurance is quite impressive in Naruto standards, but isn't exactly top or high tier in bleach standards

2 - You're also admitting that his shield was capable of protecting himself against an attack that did pretty impressive damage (mind, I'm not making up BS, just reiterating what you said).

3 - You're also admitting that he has high durability

1 - What you have listed there, are all strength feats that surpass anything in Naruto has to show by a mile, so thank you

2 - No one in Naruto has comparable strength feats to any you have mentioned

3 - A's strength feats and Tsunades are punching through walls which ARE NOT equivalent to multiple buildings in Bleach

4 - Yammamoto punched Wonderweiss so hard with his Sukkotsu attack that he disintegrated into smaller pieces. Mind you that it was a physical attack and there were no other mechanics behind it.

I never denied his durability is decent but not extremely high end. Umm if you read my statements carefully then why would you say that no one in Naruto has comparable feats. My entire point was that only a few characters in Bleach have compared to the top tier feats of A and Tsunade.

A sent a multiton buidling sized beast toppling to the floor with a chop and sent Madara's Susano'o flying over the length of probably three to five football fields with an enhanced punch.

Tsunade lifted a building sized knife and proceeded to jump hundreds of feet into the air with it in hand. Both of those feats would be high end even in the Bleachverse and compared to the ones I listed.

Also, Yamamoto's punch isn't impressive lol, anyone with that kind of strength can do that, Tsunade punched an even bigger hole than that one in Madara with just one hand.

Quote:

1 - Yes, Gaara can defend against an attack from Urahara and Urahara has nothing close to the destructive scale of Second Mizukages Jouki Boy as you can see with one of Urahara's techniques Hiasobi, Benihime, Juzutsunagi in Chapter 405 page 19-20 and Hado #91 - Chapter 402 pages 12-13.
Yea he has nothing close to the destructive scale of the Second Mizukage
That last one may have seemed like an attack that doesn't offer much, but that was only because it was done in the air, therefore no destruction could be seen or done
Also those first few words are sarcastic.

2 - You also make it out to sound like Urahara is just gonna spam attacks at Gaara from straight on. Urahara can as easily as the snake he is blitz Gaara who isn't impressive at all with his reactions.
Actually as soon as I posted I remembered that attack from chapter 405 :P and meant to edit my post but was in a game and got distracted. You're right about that, his sword combo did match Jouki Boy's destructive capabilities so with his best moves (that we've seen so far) he would be able to create a momentary opening in Gaara's defense.

I don't act like he will spam attacks at all, I act like he will be too busy fending off A to set up all his techniques. If you've noticed none of these attacks have been done in one move, they all require multiple steps. He won't have the time to do that with omnidirectional attacks from Gaara's sand, Mei's water and A's nintaijutsu.

Uchiha Sora 11-04-2012 01:55 PM

Re: Urahara Kisuke vs The Five Kages
 
I'm pretty sure Urahara roflblitzes.

JLI2infinity 11-04-2012 02:02 PM

Re: Urahara Kisuke vs The Five Kages
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Uchiha Sora (Post 6325157)
I'm pretty sure Urahara roflblitzes.

*Sigh* And in come the speed calcs.:???:

Uchiha Sora 11-04-2012 02:22 PM

Re: Urahara Kisuke vs The Five Kages
 
I don't do calcs :lol:

Uraharas a top tier bleach character correct? Aside from A, the other Kage aren't very fast, even for their own verse

Ba_bamBam 11-04-2012 03:34 PM

Re: Urahara Kisuke vs The Five Kages
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity (Post 6325147)
Ok seriously are we going to have to break out speed calcs because I really don't want to. The only reason I believe Yoruichi is faster than A is because she can move at his high speed for a long distance but I really don't understand how you've concluded that there is some huge difference in their instantaneous speed. Yammy's speed is not even close to A's. A instantaneously appeared in front of the fastest character in the Narutoverse. Yammy got his arm cut off by Ichigo before he could even move, neither reaction time nor movement speed are comparable.

1 - I never said Yammy's speed was close to A's

2 - Yoruichi speed is on par with Urahara's, therefore her speed should be well above A's. If you want to explain why Urahara's speed is well above A's I'll do it again.

3 - To reiterate and make this clear, I never said Yammy was on par with A. Yammy has the upperhand in strength, but not in speed just to make you happy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity (Post 6325147)

I never denied his durability is decent but not extremely high end. Umm if you read my statements carefully then why would you say that no one in Naruto has comparable feats. My entire point was that only a few characters in Bleach have compared to the top tier feats of A and Tsunade.

A sent a multiton buidling sized beast toppling to the floor with a chop and sent Madara's Susano'o flying over the length of probably three to five football fields with an enhanced punch.

Tsunade lifted a building sized knife and proceeded to jump hundreds of feet into the air with it in hand. Both of those feats would be high end even in the Bleachverse and compared to the ones I listed.

1 - I never said you denied it.

2 - Okay, actually several (just to make this clear, several and few, not much of a difference) characters in Bleach have feats comparable to TOP TIER feats of A and Tsunade. And? What more were we trying to prove here? A and Tsunade are no doubt the Top Tier in strength in their verse and no one can come close to matching them. ONLY 2 of them. Several characters in Bleach have feats comparable to the TOP 2 in Naruto. That say's something doesn't?

3 - Lol, no they would be high tier at best (that's being generous) and I know you didn't mention anything about top tier but high tier=/top tier. If you seriously want me to explain why then ask in the next cause I don't want to bother explaining that part at the moment.

4 - I never doubted their strength either.

5 - About the A and the beast thing, it's like let's say Superman punching a large airplane okay? Now would it be the same thing if Superman punched a dense ball of gold? Both are extremely heavy are they not? Nnoitra was punched my Chad's strongest attack and didn't move 1 mm. Yet when Kenpachi came in and wasn't even serious yet, he managed to push him back several times.
Point I was trying to get at with that was that just because something's small doesn't mean it's easy to move. Oh ya that reminds me of another feat. Yammy smacked Kenpachi away, then a few seconds later Kenpachi THROWS a massive rock comparable to that of the giant sword from the toad at Yammy I dare say 100m+ away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity (Post 6325147)
Also, Yamamoto's punch isn't impressive lol, anyone with that kind of strength can do that, Tsunade punched an even bigger hole than that one in Madara with just one hand.



Actually as soon as I posted I remembered that attack from chapter 405 :P and meant to edit my post but was in a game and got distracted. You're right about that, his sword combo did match Jouki Boy's destructive capabilities so with his best moves (that we've seen so far) he would be able to create a momentary opening in Gaara's defense.

I don't act like he will spam attacks at all, I act like he will be too busy fending off A to set up all his techniques. If you've noticed none of these attacks have been done in one move, they all require multiple steps. He won't have the time to do that with omnidirectional attacks from Gaara's sand, Mei's water and A's nintaijutsu.


1 - How is that not impressive? Just because it isn't destructive? Is that what you're going for? Let me tell you this. Destruction/=actual power. Yammy's massive cero can be as destructive as it wants, but its power would be on par of that of Hollow Ichigo's Getsuga Tenshou correct?
Before he did that he punched Wonderweiss and sent him flying with one hand :/. He used 2 hands and punched him so hard he disintegrated.
disintegrated
disintegrated
disintegrated
disintegrated!!

If you're still not satisfied with that, he blocked and deflected Ayon's strike without being pushed back an inch. Ayon's strength was evidenced when he tore off Matsumoto's abdomen with one effortless swoop and also effortlessly broke awake from Hisagi's chains and even broke them.

2 - Shame on you for forgetting that.

3 - Blood Mist shield, Gigai (No one would be able to react to that, not even Aizen could), or just plain out move the hell out of the way? You can't exactly predict someone's movement if it's so instantaneous that he can switch places with a blow up toy without even Aizen realizing it when he's literally right in front of you

JLI2infinity 11-05-2012 06:26 AM

Re: Urahara Kisuke vs The Five Kages
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ba_bamBam (Post 6325574)
1 - I never said Yammy's speed was close to A's

2 - Yoruichi speed is on par with Urahara's, therefore her speed should be well above A's. If you want to explain why Urahara's speed is well above A's I'll do it again.

3 - To reiterate and make this clear, I never said Yammy was on par with A. Yammy has the upperhand in strength, but not in speed just to make you happy.

Yoruichi's speed is NOT "on par with" Urahara's, Yoruichi is arguably the fastest character in the show. She's the "goddess of the flash." Unless you've heard Urahara given that title you can't go around saying things like that. Go ahead and explain. Like I said the only way you can "prove" that Urahara is faster than A is with speed calcs. but no one has them and I haven't seen an accurate one done for either universe as of yet, lol some fool had Sage Mode Naruto at Mach 11. So point is you cannot state with any certainty that Urahara's speed is significantly higher than A's.

I understand that because of shunpo and natural ability the scale for speed and strength in the Bleachverse is naturally higher than the Narutoverse but the top tiers of both worlds are outliers and thus have to be compared on a case by case basis.



Quote:

1 - I never said you denied it.

2 - Okay, actually several (just to make this clear, several and few, not much of a difference) characters in Bleach have feats comparable to TOP TIER feats of A and Tsunade. And? What more were we trying to prove here? A and Tsunade are no doubt the Top Tier in strength in their verse and no one can come close to matching them. ONLY 2 of them. Several characters in Bleach have feats comparable to the TOP 2 in Naruto. That say's something doesn't?

3 - Lol, no they would be high tier at best (that's being generous) and I know you didn't mention anything about top tier but high tier=/top tier. If you seriously want me to explain why then ask in the next cause I don't want to bother explaining that part at the moment.

4 - I never doubted their strength either.

5 - About the A and the beast thing, it's like let's say Superman punching a large airplane okay? Now would it be the same thing if Superman punched a dense ball of gold? Both are extremely heavy are they not? Nnoitra was punched my Chad's strongest attack and didn't move 1 mm. Yet when Kenpachi came in and wasn't even serious yet, he managed to push him back several times.
Point I was trying to get at with that was that just because something's small doesn't mean it's easy to move. Oh ya that reminds me of another feat. Yammy smacked Kenpachi away, then a few seconds later Kenpachi THROWS a massive rock comparable to that of the giant sword from the toad at Yammy I dare say 100m+ away.
Yoruichi, Isshin, Kensei, Ulquiorra, Vasto Lorde Ichigo, and FGT Ichigo were all "top tier" in physical strength for their universes. I know the difference, my rep and post count might not be high on this site, but I've been doing this forum thing for quite a while my friend. All those feats I mentioned were top tier for raw physical power in the Bleach universe.

Yes that Nnoitra example is impressive but unless you somehow have the value for his density and the force that would be required to knock him down comparing it to A and the bijuu isn't very accurate. For all we know Chad's punch wouldn't have been enough to knock the Hachibi down. We saw what it did to that sand hollow, it couldn't even make a crack strong long enough to reach its mask. Moreover, the Hachibi / Bee has shown incredible durability in the past.

LOL Did you just compare that rock to Gamabunta's knife. That rock was 3 times Kenpachi's size at best, all it did was bruise Yammy's cheek, the distance is impressive but that's all. Gamabunta's sword is the size of a building. We've seen comparisons on multiple occasions...

-Gamabunta is shown to be the size of the Hokage Mansion (the largest building in Konoha), his bunto sits on his waist right at about half the building's length

-Gamabunta takes on the Shukaku in the forest with Naruto. Gamabunta drops his bunto and it creates wind and a tremendous smoke cloud just by landing, it also stands at least twice as high as any of the surrounding trees as well as significantly wider.

-Tsunade jumps to grab the bunto from the ground, her hands barely cover about 1/20th of the base of the knife.

I've seen calcs done for the knife and it's overall length, it varies slightly from panel to panel but estimates are about 50-70 meters (the height of a 5-7 story building).

Soooooo maybe if Kenpachi broke the tower he got thrown into in half, picked it up and decided to chuck it we could compare those feats.

Quote:

1 - How is that not impressive? Just because it isn't destructive? Is that what you're going for? Let me tell you this. Destruction/=actual power. Yammy's massive cero can be as destructive as it wants, but its power would be on par of that of Hollow Ichigo's Getsuga Tenshou correct?
Before he did that he punched Wonderweiss and sent him flying with one hand :/. He used 2 hands and punched him so hard he disintegrated.
disintegrated
disintegrated
disintegrated
disintegrated!!

If you're still not satisfied with that, he blocked and deflected Ayon's strike without being pushed back an inch. Ayon's strength was evidenced when he tore off Matsumoto's abdomen with one effortless swoop and also effortlessly broke awake from Hisagi's chains and even broke them.

2 - Shame on you for forgetting that.

3 - Blood Mist shield, Gigai (No one would be able to react to that, not even Aizen could), or just plain out move the hell out of the way? You can't exactly predict someone's movement if it's so instantaneous that he can switch places with a blow up toy without even Aizen realizing it when he's literally right in front of you

I already told you that Yamamoto punching Wonderweiss (while it looked awesome) wasn't that impressive for someone of his strength level.

Tsunade punched Madara so hard through the gut that his midsection...
disintegrated
disintegrated
disintegrated
disintegrated!!

The Ayon feat is much more impressive but still doesn't quite compare to the ones I mentioned for other characters who were building busting.

Lastly, Urahara's gigai switching feat is more of a sleight of hand type thing rather than a true speed feat. It's very likely that Soi Fon is physically faster than Urahara, she was able to create about a dozen afterimages before she went to attack Aizen but he just called it a parlor trick and caught the real one. The way Urahara's move works is that he times his substitution so perfectly that his opponent thinks they landed the attack.

That's definitely impressive in the Bleachverse but in the Narutoverse even the lowliest genin knows how to do that, it's called kawarimi (a.k.a. substitution jutsu). That's because the shinobi world focuses much more on deception and sleight of hand. I doubt the Five Kages will be fooled by a substitution for very long. Actually every time we've seen the technique used in the show as soon as the characters realize there hit didn't land they immediately start forming a new plan of attack. Yammy and Aizen just stood there relishing in victory.

Godaime Kazekage 11-05-2012 12:44 PM

Re: Urahara Kisuke vs The Five Kages
 
I agree with JLI2, and I'm sick and tired of people using powerscale-speedblitz as a be all, end all statement-unless it's abundantly clear that one character is much faster than the others it's just lazy debating by people who don't actually have a good argument for the side they support. I don't really remember Urahara doing anything inherently impressive speed wise of his own merit. All of his speed "feats" are just measuring out his reactions against other characters who are considered as fast (but haven't been proved to be going all out-just Yoruichi "getting serious"). This isn't enough to convince me that he can casually outspeed A while he's being supported by the other Kage. He can't even speedblitz the other Kage either since Gaara's defensive sand is fast enough to block Amaterasu (although if the other Kage are located a significant distance away from him he probably couldn't defend them). Onoki is also a big factor here in that he can lighten both A and Gaara's sand to boost their already impressive speeds. Urahara's supposed speed trump card, the Gigai, is just a glorified Kawarimi no Jutsu and as JLI2 said all Narutoverse fodder can do that. There's actually a good chance that the fight would end in the first few seconds with Onoki using Jinton. With no knowledge, Urahara wouldn't know that Jinton isn't an attack you can block and would be disintegrated if he didn't attempt to dodge, which is also debatable if he could pull off since it's been implied that Onoki can use a Jinton large enough to destroy Turtle Island.

Ba_bamBam 11-05-2012 02:10 PM

Re: Urahara Kisuke vs The Five Kages
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Godaime Kazekage (Post 6326257)
I agree with JLI2, and I'm sick and tired of people using powerscale-speedblitz as a be all, end all statement-unless it's abundantly clear that one character is much faster than the others it's just lazy debating by people who don't actually have a good argument for the side they support. I don't really remember Urahara doing anything inherently impressive speed wise of his own merit. All of his speed "feats" are just measuring out his reactions against other characters who are considered as fast (but haven't been proved to be going all out-just Yoruichi "getting serious"). This isn't enough to convince me that he can casually outspeed A while he's being supported by the other Kage. He can't even speedblitz the other Kage either since Gaara's defensive sand is fast enough to block Amaterasu

1 - Please tell me you didn't just say Gaara's sand is fast enough to prevent Urahara from attacking. Amaterasu is incredibly slow and if you seriously want to me to prove that then tell me. Also in the bolded part what you have said there means that in a one on one fight Urahara can casually outspeed A. Therefore since A>Amaterasu then Urahara>Amaterasu. AND if you're going by the BS statement of Amaterasu ignites anything the user lays its eye on? Yea, that's worked perfectly fine so far ...
Reason for that? Characters are too fast.
Reason I'm saying this? Urahara is already casually multiple times faster than the average high tier of Naruto. Note I said average and high not top - I'm also being generous.

2 - I'm not power scaling him at all.

3 - Is it seriously, THAT hard to understand that when someone can move so fast he can replace himself with a blow up toy when he's SEEN literally standing still right in front of you as if he's done literally nothing at all? Do you want to know what a textbook definition of a speed blitz is? Moving so fast that your opponent can't even realize it. Urahara casually did that during his fight with Yammy and Aizen.

To elaborate on Yammy's, Yammy blasted a bala at him and right before the bala even hit him Urahara blew up the doll and switch places with it.

To elaborate on Aizen's, Aizen who can take on 10+captain level shinigami's by himself and literally blitz the crap out of Shunsui, Soifon, Hitsugaya and Shinji all at ONCE and left them on the ground. Urahara blew up the doll and switched places with it while he seemed to still be staring straight at Aizen. Then suddenly appear behind him the moment the Aizen destroyed the gigai.

Is this... seriously that hard to understand?

BMC1994 11-05-2012 02:12 PM

Re: Urahara Kisuke vs The Five Kages
 
/broken record here. But urahara really is on a whole nother level compared to the kages.
Note that weaker captains like komamaru(the fox guy) Already performed strenght feats which **** on tsunades. For speed the mid tiers like renji should be able to keep up with A. Really by sheer powerscaling they should get stomped. Lets see the 5 kage even touch condom aizen. See my point?

But lets look as why urahara still stomps them feat wise. Bleach 'standing on air/flight' already removes any air advantage the 5 kage would have. A is pretty much useless can urahara can easily keep up with his speed and his strenght (just look what he casual did to the people at maggots nest uraharas hand to hand is no joke especially if it can keep with yoruichi who smacked condom aizen around).

His benihime boasts both an powerfull defense against most what tsunade can offer unless your going to tell me Tsunade > Getsuga tenshou in which case you might want to reread both series.

Uraharas kido is way too versatile for the kages to handle most of them except sand would get by some advanced bakudo before they even notice it. This also pretty much detroys both gaaras sand and meis lava leaving only onoki dust release. Which urahara and shunpo would be able to dodge casually.

The only real threat is onokis jinton but the question is would onoki be able to pull it off before getting kido spammed. Besides onoki would not use such a large scale jutsu unless he wants to destroy the 4 other kage as well.
And urahara can still take it to the air to dodge it since everyone in bleach has the random skywalk.

Really because of uraharas speed and reaction feats none of the kages save for maybe A can touch him. And even so urahara hand to hand is able to handle yoruichi which really isnt good news for A.

Really shibari benihime should take care of atleast Onoki, Mei and tsunade. If not then he follows up with the flame orb explosion.

Gaara should be easily bound by bakudo as he doesnt move around much.

I truly dont see A doing anything except being a sitting duck. He can bakudo > hado him to bits. And no they wont be dodging it as people atleast as fast as them ahve been caught with various bakudo.

Ba_bamBam 11-05-2012 02:19 PM

Re: Urahara Kisuke vs The Five Kages
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity (Post 6326092)


LOL Did you just compare that rock to Gamabunta's knife. That rock was 3 times Kenpachi's size at best, all it did was bruise Yammy's cheek, the distance is impressive but that's all. Gamabunta's sword is the size of a building. We've seen comparisons on multiple occasions...

-Gamabunta is shown to be the size of the Hokage Mansion (the largest building in Konoha), his bunto sits on his waist right at about half the building's length




I already told you that Yamamoto punching Wonderweiss (while it looked awesome) wasn't that impressive for someone of his strength level.

Tsunade punched Madara so hard through the gut that his midsection...
disintegrated
disintegrated
disintegrated
disintegrated!!

The Ayon feat is much more impressive but still doesn't quite compare to the ones I mentioned for other characters who were building busting.

.

1 - I don't have time right now to reply to all of them so bare with me

2 - Yes I did. Okay let's say in your perfect world that I admit that the rock is smaller than the sword. And? Tsunade didn't exactly throw that sword either.
Kenpachi casually chucked it several hundred metres away AND he was still injured from his fight with Nnoitra. Also he wasn't mad serious either like Tsunade. There's a difference in strength when you get serious, I'm sure you know that and I know you do.

3 - So just because a building is given the title the largest building in the town doesn't exactly mean its large compared to other buildings. You get where I'm getting at? The scale.

4 - Are you saying Yamamoto's strength is = to Tsunades?

5 - Edo's disintegrate whether you like to accept that fact or not. They can get cut and still show disintegration.

6 - Hmm... So basically what you're saying is, is that he has to smash a building in order to show he has building level destructive capabilities? Did you not read my example of Superman? Plus a building isn't all dense. There's a lot of hollow space in a building so it's not exactly hard for these kind of characters to demolish them. That's why you see so many people (both narutoverse and bleachverse) knock down buildings so casually.


- And to someone who said his feat with the gigai is sleight of hand (sorry I don't remember who and I don't want to re read again :P), yes part of it is sleight of hand BUT you're missing the fact that not only did he take out a gigai and blow it up BUT he REPLACED himself with it. The only way to do this is the moment right before someone strikes you in order to fool him into believing that's you. To do that midst an attempted blitz from Aizen is incredibly - highly - impressive and is among the top tier in speed feats. You see, sleight of hand would only involve the part of him taking it out, but the actual speed feat would be when he replaced himself with it the moment before he was struck

BMC1994 thanks for mentioning that, but I'll repeat what you said credits to you.

-Onoki's Jinton? - Bakudou #81 Danku
-Bakudou - restrain all kages since no one other than Tsunade or Raikage have good strength feats since the only way we've seen a bakudou being destroyed is through sheer force. In order words that's already an automatic out for Gaara, Onoki and Mei, they'll be sitting ducks.
-Flight - only one who can technically fly is Onoki, yes he can make the other kages fly, but what exactly would Urahara be doing while Onoki does that? Also bakudou # 63 > Onoki.

JLI2infinity 11-05-2012 04:46 PM

Re: Urahara Kisuke vs The Five Kages
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ba_bamBam (Post 6326359)
1 - I don't have time right now to reply to all of them so bare with me

2 - Yes I did. Okay let's say in your perfect world that I admit that the rock is smaller than the sword. And? Tsunade didn't exactly throw that sword either.
Kenpachi casually chucked it several hundred metres away AND he was still injured from his fight with Nnoitra. Also he wasn't mad serious either like Tsunade. There's a difference in strength when you get serious, I'm sure you know that and I know you do.

3 - So just because a building is given the title the largest building in the town doesn't exactly mean its large compared to other buildings. You get where I'm getting at? The scale.

4 - Are you saying Yamamoto's strength is = to Tsunades?

5 - Edo's disintegrate whether you like to accept that fact or not. They can get cut and still show disintegration.

6 - Hmm... So basically what you're saying is, is that he has to smash a building in order to show he has building level destructive capabilities? Did you not read my example of Superman? Plus a building isn't all dense. There's a lot of hollow space in a building so it's not exactly hard for these kind of characters to demolish them. That's why you see so many people (both narutoverse and bleachverse) knock down buildings so casually.


- And to someone who said his feat with the gigai is sleight of hand (sorry I don't remember who and I don't want to re read again :P), yes part of it is sleight of hand BUT you're missing the fact that not only did he take out a gigai and blow it up BUT he REPLACED himself with it. The only way to do this is the moment right before someone strikes you in order to fool him into believing that's you. To do that midst an attempted blitz from Aizen is incredibly - highly - impressive and is among the top tier in speed feats. You see, sleight of hand would only involve the part of him taking it out, but the actual speed feat would be when he replaced himself with it the moment before he was struck

BMC1994 thanks for mentioning that, but I'll repeat what you said credits to you.

-Onoki's Jinton? - Bakudou #81 Danku
-Bakudou - restrain all kages since no one other than Tsunade or Raikage have good strength feats since the only way we've seen a bakudou being destroyed is through sheer force. In order words that's already an automatic out for Gaara, Onoki and Mei, they'll be sitting ducks.
-Flight - only one who can technically fly is Onoki, yes he can make the other kages fly, but what exactly would Urahara be doing while Onoki does that? Also bakudou # 63 > Onoki.

Sigh. Either you don't read my statements carefully, or you selectively read them, I'm going to hope it's not the latter because that will make this post feel pointless to me.

"Perfect world" `#( Buddy I don't know what you meant by that but I'm not living in some fantasy land this is based on evidence in both mangas. I didn't suddenly make up the size of the rock and the knife. So take that patronizing comment somewhere else and go take a look at some scans.

It's not given the title of "largest building" it IS the largest building. Once again go back and look at some scans. Kishi has shown the village from a bird's eye and outsider view on numerous occasions (Chuunin Exam, Beginning of Shippuden, Pain Invasion, the first frickin chapter). The Hokage Mansion is the tallest building in Konoha.

Edo's disintegrate AFTER they lose their binding to the physical world and begin to fade, other than that you have to actually cause them physical harm to see the papers, and the papers only come after the damage has been done to signal regeneration. In other words, the wound you make would have happened with or without Edo Tensei. So in reality Madara's mid section would've been disintegrated by Tsunade's punch. My point is that the feat you've been praising Yamamoto for isn't that impressive.

LOL No I wasn't saying Kenpachi has to smash a building I was saying that to match Tsunade's knife lifting feet he would have to break that tower he got thrown into in half and throw it, that is what would make the feats comparable, because half of that tower is about the size of Gamabunta's knife.

I don't care if Kenpachi wasn't being serious don't try to use it as a feat. It was impressive as I said but not of the same scale as what we're debating.

I was the one who made the slight of hand point, and my point was that it is NOT a top tier speed feat because it works mostly through deception instead of actual movement. Even GENIN can perform substitution. If you have the replacement ready beforehand and are prepping yourself to dodge, the move doesn't require speed as much as it does execution. Urahara was already in the mindset of someone about to dodge an attack from a faster opponent, he had been talking with Aizen before the blitz (probably getting ready). He's a genius who's always on his guard.

@BMC1992 I already answered all of your contentions...

I have A pressuring Urahara the entire fight so no Benihime or Kido set ups.

Tsunade's strength feats are significantly greater than shikai Ichigo's Getsuga Tensho are you kidding me?

If you want to put Urahara in the air then I'll just have Mei use Hidden Mist on the ground. Urahara doesn't know where to strike so none of his attacks will work. If he tries to randomly fire off into the mist Gaara and Onoki can defend against it. Then Gaara places sand clones in the midst so that when Urahara comes back he doesn't know who to attack. Onoki preps his Jinton Cylinder and as soon as Urahara touches down Gaara's sand senses it and Mr. Sandlehat gets fried.

Godaime Kazekage 11-05-2012 07:13 PM

Re: Urahara Kisuke vs The Five Kages
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ba_bamBam (Post 6326352)
1 - Please tell me you didn't just say Gaara's sand is fast enough to prevent Urahara from attacking. Amaterasu is incredibly slow and if you seriously want to me to prove that then tell me. Also in the bolded part what you have said there means that in a one on one fight Urahara can casually outspeed A. Therefore since A>Amaterasu then Urahara>Amaterasu. AND if you're going by the BS statement of Amaterasu ignites anything the user lays its eye on? Yea, that's worked perfectly fine so far ...
Reason for that? Characters are too fast.
Reason I'm saying this? Urahara is already casually multiple times faster than the average high tier of Naruto. Note I said average and high not top - I'm also being generous.

2 - I'm not power scaling him at all.

3 - Is it seriously, THAT hard to understand that when someone can move so fast he can replace himself with a blow up toy when he's SEEN literally standing still right in front of you as if he's done literally nothing at all? Do you want to know what a textbook definition of a speed blitz is? Moving so fast that your opponent can't even realize it. Urahara casually did that during his fight with Yammy and Aizen.

To elaborate on Yammy's, Yammy blasted a bala at him and right before the bala even hit him Urahara blew up the doll and switch places with it.

To elaborate on Aizen's, Aizen who can take on 10+captain level shinigami's by himself and literally blitz the crap out of Shunsui, Soifon, Hitsugaya and Shinji all at ONCE and left them on the ground. Urahara blew up the doll and switched places with it while he seemed to still be staring straight at Aizen. Then suddenly appear behind him the moment the Aizen destroyed the gigai.

Is this... seriously that hard to understand?

I never said Gaara's sand is fast enough to prevent Urahara from attacking. It's fast enough to block any of his attacks. Yes, please prove how an attack that essentially instantaneously ignites where the user is looking is slow:roll:. The only advantage that someone can have against Amaterasu is the lag time in which the user is prepping it (the eye starts to bleed as they focus)-the actual attack is near instantaneous. I'm sorry if you misinterpreted what I wrote, I meant that it's even harder for Urahara to try to outspeed A when he has support, not that Urahara can casually outspeed him which is what I think is a minimum needed for someone to claim win by speedblitz. Please tell me a time that a character besides A has dodged Ammy...oh right never. And in the inevitable case you bring up Sasuke, Itachi purposely tried not to hit him in a spot that could cause lethal damage so he slowly swept his vision until he saw the tip of Sasuke's wing.

I don't know why you are so impressed with the Gigai. I guess every noob ninja in the Narutoverse totally outclasses everyone in the Bleachverse in terms of speed due to Substitution Jutsu. As JLI2 said, it's a perception trick-the same reason Aizen was roflstomping the Captains. The formula of one combatant striking a fake and the next panel showing the real person attacking the the guy who got duped's back happens in like every manga and isn't a speed feat.

-Bakudo 81 isn't going to do ;);););) against Jinton which rearranges things at the particle level.
-Good luck restraining the Kages with Bakudo when he's constantly being pressured by their combined attacks-to even use half of them at full strength he has to chant out a long saying. In the time it takes him to recite all of that crap he'd already be disintegrated by Jinton or Gaara would've made clones of everyone.

@BMC: How does taking to the air allow you to dodge Jinton? Assuming Urahara can even get off a Bakudo on Gaara what is that even going to do for him when the sand can move independent of his will?

Ba_bamBam 11-10-2012 05:30 PM

Re: Urahara Kisuke vs The Five Kages
 
My statement will remain clear of how Urahara Kisuke takes this.
I feel this debate is getting no where :/, it's like trying to change UC's mind which is near to impossible.
Until someone brings up something I HAVEN'T endlessly been throwing feats and facts that have been continuously ignored, I refuse to debate

And just 2 last points before I officially refuse to debate on going topics again and again that seem to be going completely nowhere

To Godaime Bakudou #81 can act as a momentary shield, I'm fully aware of how jinton can destroy anything, I never said #81 can still stand after an attack from it.

And to the Urahara might not having a good reactive speed, he reacted to Wonderweiss. Wonderweiss who easily blitzed the crap out of Ukitake and pierced his body barehanded while Ukitake was looking straight at him.


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