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-   -   Is War Good Business? (http://forum.naruto.viz.com/showthread.php?t=118495)

mrsticky005 08-17-2012 10:12 PM

Is War Good Business?
 
Are all the wars just a profit scheme for mercenary groups?
Does the profit scheme work?

Basically if we were perpetually at war would mercenary groups keep getting richer and richer?

Cloukora 08-17-2012 10:39 PM

Re: Is War Good Business?
 
Profit-wise, yes it's good.
Moral-wise, no it's not.

Bacon 08-17-2012 10:49 PM

Re: Is War Good Business?
 
If we're speaking strictly business, no. War historically has bankrupted world powers like the soviet union and the Spanish empire. Eventually the mercenaries would have no work when their clients run themselves into the ground.

BTW: This sounds like the plot of Metal gear solid 4 xD

mrsticky005 08-17-2012 11:15 PM

Re: Is War Good Business?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacon (Post 6197437)
If we're speaking strictly business, no. War historically has bankrupted world powers like the soviet union and the Spanish empire. Eventually the mercenaries would have no work when their clients run themselves into the ground.

BTW: This sounds like the plot of Metal gear solid 4 xD

A guy on youtube was saying that the U.S is out to profit from war.

Basically his idea seems to go like this not verbatim at all---

Bush and Cheney are evil and want to profit from war so we went to
Iraq so that mercenary companies like Blackwater can get the money
that the Iraq War has made us. Also we invaded Iraq for oil.
Wars don't cost them anything because we pay the cost.
While they make the money.

Bacon 08-18-2012 12:09 AM

Re: Is War Good Business?
 
I don't even sticky, I don't even. xD I wouldn't be able to convince a nut like that he's wrong.

BMC1994 08-18-2012 02:33 AM

Re: Is War Good Business?
 
People die so no.
You will be spending way more on weapons/training and such then you gain.

mrsticky005 08-18-2012 09:45 AM

Re: Is War Good Business?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacon (Post 6197480)
I don't even sticky, I don't even. xD I wouldn't be able to convince a nut like that he's wrong.

Maybe I should post our conversation on here for laughs.:)

Bacon 08-18-2012 11:22 AM

Re: Is War Good Business?
 
Yes please xD

mrsticky005 08-18-2012 02:18 PM

Re: Is War Good Business?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacon (Post 6197855)
Yes please xD

Ok...it's a long conversation.

First for reference the video is an interview with American Sniper Chris Kyle

bmxman30 first wrote

that is a great american hero... hats off to chris kyle... anyone that has american blood in their veins owes a huge debt of gratitude to this man and everyone like him.... haters gunna hate,


then G58 responded

Have you quite finished blowing the guy? He kills people on foreign soil - people defending their own country, people who have never threatened your country. I know that must be a difficult fact to deal with, but it's true. Worship that if you want, but it just makes you an ill-informed uniform ;););););).


my response

How do you know he has killed "people on foreign soil - people defending their own country, people who have never threatened your country. " ?


What the ;);););) do you think US military DO? Play pat-a-cake with Afghan kids and hand out candy? And what would you be doing if the Chinese invaded YOUR country? Would you be welcoming the invading forces, abiding by their laws and thanking them for humiliating you, kicking your door in and murdering your family in the middle of the night? No, of course not. So why do you think you are any better than, or different from ordinary Afghans or Iraqis?


No, I DON'T think the US military plays pat-a-cake with Afghan kids and hand out candy (unless of course they got free time and feel like doing so). But I also think if you are going to be accusing anyone of murdering INNOCENT people you damn well better have some evidence for it. Have innocent people been killed as the result of US military intervention? I don't doubt it. But that's not the same thing as saying the U.S military has intentions of murdering innocents.


And to answer you question. Yes I WOULD welcome the invading forces--provided that the I was first living under tyrannical rule of the same sort Iraqis under the sociopath Saddam Hussein would have lived in. I mean you realize what you are essentially saying is that Iraq would be better off under the rule of Saddam. Do you actually believe that? Now that said, I actually DON'T think the U.S should have gone into Iraq. Because as far as I can see it hasn't done much good for the U.S.


Oh for christ sake! You must be the last person on Earth that isn't aware upwards of 100,000 innocent people were killed in Iraq as a result of US and other coalition action. That's a matter of record accepted by the US government, even though the actual total numbers are disputed. They call it 'collateral damage'. Whatever country you live in, at 23 and with access to the internet you have no excuse for not checking that before replying.


Because this comment was marked as spam I did not see it. But in response I will say I do not doubt innocent people have been killed as the result of US action. However that still isn't the same thing as saying the U.S military INTENDS on murdering innocents. That meaning I am not convinced as you seem to be that the U.S military INTENTIONALLY looks for innocent people to murder. War is not so simple as the deluded fantasy you expect it to be.


Here's a link to get you started: guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/
[COLOR=Magenta]

mrsticky005 08-18-2012 02:24 PM

Re: Is War Good Business?
 
Self interest is the wrong reason to be against the US invasion of Iraq. The reason for a decent person to be against the US invasion of Iraq was because it was illegal, based entirely on false intelligence & designed to finish the job started by GHW Bush, secure oil reserves, demonstrate US military prowess & make profits for Cheney, Halliburton, Blackwater etc. Therefore you're not morally qualified to judge life under Saddam compared with life in Iraq today, unless you have experienced both.

Seems as good a reason as any to me.. Though some of that oil might be nice. But you're right I DON'T know what it's like to live under Saddam's rule or after in Iraq. Hell I never been to Iraq. But I don't need to EXPERIENCE life under the control of a SADIST to know it's probably not much fun. But again, as bad as Saddam was I actually don't think we should have meddled in the affairs of other countries. It's their business.

Your moral compass is skewed a little uncomfortably too far in the direction of the psychopath you say you wouldn't want to live under, apparently without knowing it. But you're young and have hopefully got time to learn. By the time I was your age I'd already done my service and seen enough to have formed most of my views. Experiences since have taught me that it's never too late to learn. But we agree on one thing. The US should have stayed out of Iraq. Keep looking. The answers are out there.


Ok, now you're just spewing nonsense. Leaving Iraq to it's own devices is NOT the same thing as what a psychopath like Saddam Hussein does.


I assumed your reply: "Seems as good a reason as any to me.." was in reply to my "Self interest is the wrong reason to be against the US invasion of Iraq." But even if it was in reply to: "The reason for a decent person to be against the US invasion of Iraq was because it was illegal, based entirely on false intelligence & designed to finish the job started by GHW Bush, secure oil reserves, demonstrate US military prowess & make profits for Cheney, Halliburton, Blackwater etc." you're still off.

mrsticky005 08-18-2012 02:25 PM

Re: Is War Good Business?
 
As I said before I do think self interest is a good enough reason to not get involved with other countries problems. I mean if the U.S isn't wanted there then why go? Why SHOULDN'T we let Iraq fend for itself? And where do you think you get off calling me immoral when you ALSO don't think the U.S should have entered Iraq.
Doesn't matter what your reasons are, if the U.S didn't enter Iraq Saddam would still be in power causing hell for Iraq.

Okay, maybe I've misunderstood you. But the US helped put Saddam in power. He was a CIA asset & useful to them in their issues with Iran. Shall we start a list of other murdering leaders & regimes the US has helped put in power? How about Mugabe - Zimbabwe; The Taliban - Afghanistan; Zia - Pakistan; Amin - Uganda; Pinochet - Chile; Pol Pot - Cambodia; Adolf Hitler - Nazi Germany. They do that to create a permanent state of war - because war is business, a cycle of self fulfilling processes.

No, you made an assumption. Just like how you're assuming that the sniper murders innocent people. If the US put Saddam in power...then shouldn't that make it the U.S's responsibility to get him OUT of power? I'm also a bit skeptical about that list. I mean Hitler. Seriously where did you get that from? You know wars cost money, right? What kind of business cycle would it be to intentionally LOSE money? I mean at least the US wants to steal their oil theory makes sense.

mrsticky005 08-18-2012 02:27 PM

Re: Is War Good Business?
 
Oh Christ, here we go again. What are they teaching in schools there days? Look, I'm not responsible for your education, presumably someone was. I suggest you get a good lawyer and sue them. But before you do that, try using a really useful tool I've found called Google. There's also a great book called 'Who Financed Hitler'. I'm 54 years old and I'm more internet savvy than you are. But I have just enough patience left to explain war to you. War is business. Money is debt. Businesses pay taxes.

Who decides there's going to be a war? Who knows? Who announces there's going to be a war? Governments. Who fights wars? Soldiers, Seamen & Airmen. Who pays for wars? You do in extra taxes - if you're dumb enough to pay Taxes. So who is it who "intentionally LOSE money?" That's right buddy, the same poor ;););););););) they send to do the killing for them. Ever seen the son of a multimillionaire on the front line? Why not? Because they're not stupid like you. They made you stupid. They keep you stupid.



I wouldn't know what they are teaching in school these days since these days I don't go to school. Yet I've never heard anywhere of the U.S putting Hitler in power. Frankly, I think you're a nut case. But I'll look into it. Also if war is business than it's bad business. I'm sure a patient, internet saavy 54 year old like yourself has heard of the broken window fallacy, yes? Even if let's say we went to Iraq for oil. I don't think the profit frorm oil would outweigh the cost of war itself.
Is the book you're talking about "Who Financed Hitler" written by James Pool?


Someone who's clearly smarter than you and older than you obviously knows tons of stuff you don't... so you call them "a nut case". If there's no war, there's no business for armaments companies. Have you checked the profits of armaments companies, construction companies, Haliburton, Blackwater and all the other companies involved in Iraq and Afghanistan? They make the war. You pay the cost. They profit. Get it? Now you & your retard sniper are on your own you rude little ass wipe.

mrsticky005 08-18-2012 02:29 PM

Re: Is War Good Business?
 
That's great. Like I care. I still think you're a nut case. I know we pay the cost. But you can only extort so much before they run out of money and capital for you to extort. Now you may be right about the US going to war to make profit. I still don't think it's good business. By the way if you don't want people like me to be a "rude little ass wipe" to you than maybe you shouldn't be one yourself. Just a thought.

I feel I should congratulate you on your tiny little display open mindedness. Let me explain something about money. What you think of as money - the notes and coins in your pocket, is not money. Those are just promissory notes & tokens, & represent less than 3% of the real money in the system. If you go for a loan it is created as debt, you sign an agreement, then that note is secularized - sold to investors. So there's no limit to the amount they can make you pay for their war, even your life.

Just because a total stranger on the net has shared facts about the world you didn't know, don't assume they are crazy. I learned much of these facts about the banking system by reading & studying over the past three years. Many millions already know much much more than I. Ultimately going to war for profit is bad for humans, but the psychopaths running the show always remain untouched. It's your generation that's ultimately going to have build a better system, so get studying with an open mind.



Actually I already knew that coins and notes is just a representation of money. But there IS a limit. If there wasn't than scarcity wouldn't exist and if scarcity wouldn't exist then there would be no need for war. War, in the end doesn't create wealth. It only destroys wealth. So again war is ultimately bad business.


Oh dear mrsticky005 you really are hard work. It doesn't destroy THEIR wealth. Those in control - the 1% have got ENORMOUSLY RICHER since the cyclic 'banking collapse'. It's only us poor ;););););););) who have experienced what you laughingly describe as a "scarcity" or "destroy[ed] wealth". Why do you think smart people all over the world are joining protests right now? Smart people have figured out we the 99% are being ;);););););), used & bled like cattle, kept as slaves, LIED TO - by the system.


But here's a logical little question for you: If war is bad for business & an unhealthy population & poor education are obviously bad for the population, why are healthcare & education being cut, but the war budget & tax breaks for the rich are not? If your theory was right, in a time of alleged 'financial crisis', the government would think of its people who elect them first, bring the troops home & use the 'money' 'saved' to support the population. That ain't happening, ergo you must be wrong!

mrsticky005 08-18-2012 02:29 PM

Re: Is War Good Business?
 
Because defeat costs even MORE. If you are defeated you get NOTHING. So why is so much spent on the "war budget"? To prevent defeat.

I don't think you get what I mean. Us getting screwed over isn't scarcity or destroyed wealth...that's just us getting screwed over. However as I said before, due to scarcity you can only screw over so many people so many times. Think of what money is--It's a promise. A promise of WHAT? It is a promise that you will fulfill through your own or someone else's capital--including human capital which does in fact have a limit. Money from "thin air" only decreases the value of money.



mrsticky005 08-18-2012 02:30 PM

Re: Is War Good Business?
 
So by that genius hypothesis... the screwing over will do what soon? Slow down? Stop maybe? Oh really! There are two things the system is most scared of:
Control of finance going out of their hands
Humans becoming more educated
But I don't think they have much to worry about, because if you're a representative example of the next generation, you're perfectly primed to be just as screwed as we were. And your last point... why do you think they have crashes? It resets the system!!!


No you end up with nothing. You can't reset scarcity.


Going back to my original question. How do you actually KNOW that the "retard" sniper Chris Kyle has killed innocent people just defending their home land? I will say that I for one DON'T know if the 155 confirmed kills were in fact of guilty or innocent people. But I think a person is innocent until PROVEN guilty. So aside from your theories on US military policy what proof do you have that just 1 of those 155 kills was in fact innocent or at least not hostile.

mrsticky005 08-18-2012 02:31 PM

Re: Is War Good Business?
 
Before I answer that, let me ask you a couple of questions:
What do you do for a living?
Have you watched this interview with the sound turned off?
Have you got family in the forces or law enforcement?
Have you got family in banking or finance?
What country do you live in?
Are you getting CAPTCHAs when you reply to me?


All that is irrelevant to the question I asked. Either you have concrete proof that Chris Kyle has killed innocent persons or you don't have concrete proof. How do you know the people he killed were just "defending" their homes and not hostilities themselves?

mrsticky005 08-18-2012 02:32 PM

Re: Is War Good Business?
 
ok that's it. Sorry it was a long convoseration

SRhyse 08-18-2012 03:09 PM

Re: Is War Good Business?
 
This sounds more like a conversation on the moral and ethical issues with various aspects of the US going to war in the Middle East, not so much whether 'war' is good for business, or the OP question of whether perpetual war would cause infinite profit for mercenary groups.

I'd love to discuss either, but you'd really need to pick.

mrsticky005 08-18-2012 03:25 PM

Re: Is War Good Business?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SRhyse (Post 6198184)
This sounds more like a conversation on the moral and ethical issues with various aspects of the US going to war in the Middle East, not so much whether 'war' is good for business, or the OP question of whether perpetual war would cause infinite profit for mercenary groups.

I'd love to discuss either, but you'd really need to pick.

It started off as the former but developed into the latter.

I'm more interested in the whether is good for business part.

Also I dunno if there may be language issues. I was copying and pasting.

My idea for this debate actually derived from that conversation.

SRhyse 08-18-2012 03:44 PM

Re: Is War Good Business?
 
Addressing the 'good for business' part then -

You'd have to get more specific. It depends on what 'business' you're in. If you're a farmer in the country we're going to war with, for example, then probably not, if that's the battlefield. On the other hand, if your army is going to war, food can quickly dwindle in supply, and you can potentially charge more for it, unless your government/people/morality prevent you from doing it, which is often the case, and then business is always kind of the same.

Speaking of businesses in the US, it comes back to the same point - it depends on what business you're in. If you sell bullets, then possibly, war is good for business. If you sell water filtration systems and you are contracted by the military, as happened in the past wars with people that often get criticized as being in high political power to urge people to make the decisions on whether or not we go to war (Cheney types), then ya, it can be.

There too though, 'good' for business is relative to the profits you'd be making otherwise in your business. For people that get criticized as being in the top 1% of people in America, let alone the planet, business is honestly always going to be 'good' for them. They tend to own so much that's conducting business on such a wide scale that there really isn't ever a point where they won't be profiting and getting more income unless they royally screw it up. On interest alone, they can make 6 figure incomes on the money they already have, and that's immensely understating it :lol:.

For the folks that get lumped into the 99%, it'd again depend on your business. If you license GPS systems for military vehicles, sure. If your business happens to get alot of influx business from the folks that profit more directly on the military efforts, then it can be good there too, as there's more money being spent, and you happen to find yourself in front of the money-hose when it comes round :lol:, which is a simplified way of describing the trickle down of excess capital. So for many average folk, it can be good there too.

But what often doesn't get talked about, however, is the opportunity cost of taking all the money that's preemptively budgeted for wars and the like, and investing it in pretty much anything else. Education, technology, doesn't really matter other than it's a structural investment rather than an expense. When you take the idea of what's good for business back further into value generation on a general level, that's where the more interesting questions start coming forward, and they're ones that don't often get discussed, as they're somewhat hard to by comparison -

Would people in general, or businesses in particular here, be better off in the long term if we invested more into our own infrastructure, education and living conditions, rather than expending the money on the things we tend to with war? Monetarily, no, we would not be, as there's little to no direct or immediate profit on that, and there likely never will be. More broadly in terms of real value though? You bet your ass we would.

Not to say that it's an either or question, or that military costs in and of themselves don't have wide applicability that can change the world for the better (looking at you, interwebz). But I do believe that we'd do ourselves a favor if we invested more in our future than trying to blow up our present.

*Not speaking to any issues of whether or not war is moral in general, or the particular instances of war are 'moral', or prevention of catastrophe, or what would happen if someone else went to war with us to take all our crap, or anything like that. Speaking strictly in terms of long term value to ourselves and living conditions in a non-confrontational environment for the purposes of discussion.


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