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-   -   If I Wanted America To Fail. (http://forum.naruto.viz.com/showthread.php?t=114018)

Jinchiruuki 04-23-2012 11:06 PM

If I Wanted America To Fail.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ-4gnNz0vc

I'm sure this will spark some debate here.

JLI2infinity 04-24-2012 03:21 AM

Re: If I Wanted America To Fail.
 
AHHHHHHH My head is spinning, too many faulty premises, too many straw men, too many examples out of context, too much propoganda overall. It would take a 20 page research paper just to dismantle half of the assertions made in this 4 minute video. There are hundreds of pages of research and discussion on just the first parts of the video alone. I'm sure they made a few valid points here or there but I just couldn't focus on them between the hidden agenda this video is pushing.

mrsticky005 04-25-2012 11:03 AM

Re: If I Wanted America To Fail.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity (Post 6008784)
AHHHHHHH My head is spinning, too many faulty premises, too many straw men, too many examples out of context, too much propoganda overall. It would take a 20 page research paper just to dismantle half of the assertions made in this 4 minute video. There are hundreds of pages of research and discussion on just the first parts of the video alone. I'm sure they made a few valid points here or there but I just couldn't focus on them between the hidden agenda this video is pushing.

Well this IS a debate forum...so HAVE at it. :cool:

Bacon 04-25-2012 12:01 PM

Re: If I Wanted America To Fail.
 
Spoiler:
Number 1: Fossil fuels are fossil fuels, disregarding any premise of global warming it's still a temporary fix. Our entire country runs on the remains of dead plants and animals, something which is not infinite. Assuming it was 10 years from now and we could fully mine the resources on own coasts, there's a difference between extracting oil from the land and oil from the sea, As demonstrated by exxon mobil :lol:. Though no matter how you cut it, we use far too much energy as a nation. Those reserves would merely replace what's left in the middle east for X amount of years.

2. I love it when people say things related to global warming by comparing it to the weather. If you're not John stuart or Colbert, you're an idiot. Sorry to use that type of language, but you don't use snow as climate change. If you're going to criticize the premise of global warming, look up the facts and and the theory first. Bring evidence to somewhat dispute an of the facts and debate the theory. If I remembered correctly, an 8 degree change in global temperature was enough to trigger climate change, right now we're hovering around 3 to 5 degrees. Though there's no mention of the material from the theory in the video. XD

3. It's not a dream to desire technology which can use wind, solar, waves, and even nuclear to run our cities. If we can go to the moon, I'm damned sure we can pull this off. Though there is no hypocrisy in condemning logging and the use of fossil fuels. It took generations of people to realize the very empirical damage we were doing with mass logging for example,but now some people want to change this behaviour.

4.Free market failed in 2008, we got bailed out by China and japan.

5.He's mentioning regulations which are too complicated for ordinary people to understand. What's the difference now? :lol: Is he gonna code them with glitter and monkey stamps?

6. Small businesses deserve a chance,but there's no reason to put people like henry ford and Steve jobs on a pedestal. They wnated money, they made money. That's it.

7. The mention of distant bureaucracies makes my heart warm. Every state has it's own representatives, every state has its own agendas. Ofcourse they seem out of touch because the rep in Texas is nothing like the rep in California...

8. Imminent domain..

9. it's already impossible for farmers to farmers to farm and loggers to log. if you're not the head of a giant corporation, there's no way you can compete with the established companies. It's how an oligopoly.

3:11 starting to fail in making rebuttals lol

12. Concerns about gun rights and the owls. Humans have wiped many species off the earth due to hunting, so in this one instance we were wrong and it was just natural selection at work. It doesn't mean hunting is good or bad, it just means he's basing his defense for hunting on an entirely false premise.

3:33 It's starting to become abstract concepts with no ground to base his allegations. Essentially he's saying what's complaining about current event through his own eyes,but saying it in an indirect manner.


Tl;dr: This guy doesn't know what he's talking about. XD

zebrakiller 04-25-2012 12:12 PM

Re: If I Wanted America To Fail.
 
"only bureaucrats, lawyers, and lobbyists could understand them" the irony of that statement made me pause and laugh hard.

EDIT: wait Free Market America?! the guy in the video must misunderstand the premise behind free markets...

Bacon 04-25-2012 12:20 PM

Re: If I Wanted America To Fail.
 
We don't have lasseiz faire zebra,but our markets are still somewhat free.

zebrakiller 04-25-2012 12:36 PM

Re: If I Wanted America To Fail.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacon (Post 6010306)
We don't have lasseiz faire zebra,but our markets are still somewhat free.

i always pegged america as one of the most protectionist states. the auto industry bailout being a prime example, not to mention the tightass fiscal policy of the last 5 or so years.

Bacon 04-25-2012 01:53 PM

Re: If I Wanted America To Fail.
 
I wouldn't call us a protectionist state with our industrial power being sent to china by our own corporations. Who needs to produce products in the United states when you can have it done for half the price somewhere else? If we were truly protectionist, that would never happen.

JLI2infinity 04-25-2012 04:00 PM

Re: If I Wanted America To Fail.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacon (Post 6010358)
I wouldn't call us a protectionist state with our industrial power being sent to china by our own corporations. Who needs to produce products in the United states when you can have it done for half the price somewhere else? If we were truly protectionist, that would never happen.

He was calling the American government protectionist not our citizens. The American government is all about the interest of our country and American jobs, American education, etc. (at least they say they are) the citizens don't have to feel the same way. I agree with zebrakiller on that one.

Kiko-kun 04-25-2012 04:06 PM

Re: If I Wanted America To Fail.
 
I dislike America...

zebrakiller 04-25-2012 06:00 PM

Re: If I Wanted America To Fail.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity (Post 6010576)
He was calling the American government protectionist not our citizens. The American government is all about the interest of our country and American jobs, American education, etc. (at least they say they are) the citizens don't have to feel the same way. I agree with zebrakiller on that one.

yeah my bad im fresh for politics class where the "state" always means the govt but thats what i mean.

Bacon 04-26-2012 02:50 AM

Re: If I Wanted America To Fail.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity (Post 6010576)
He was calling the American government protectionist not our citizens. The American government is all about the interest of our country and American jobs, American education, etc. (at least they say they are) the citizens don't have to feel the same way. I agree with zebrakiller on that one.

No government in the world is not an automation, it's run by people. The people who are elected into office are chosen by the citizens which you speak of, the government officials are in theory elected by the will of the majority of citizens who are eligible to vote. So in essence we the people have created our problems by allowing our government to fall so low, as the narrator of the video puts it. If you call the American government protectionist, you are calling the majority of its populace too.

JLI2infinity 04-26-2012 01:37 PM

Re: If I Wanted America To Fail.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacon (Post 6011308)
No government in the world is not an automation, it's run by people. The people who are elected into office are chosen by the citizens which you speak of, the government officials are in theory elected by the will of the majority of citizens who are eligible to vote. So in essence we the people have created our problems by allowing our government to fall so low, as the narrator of the video puts it. If you call the American government protectionist, you are calling the majority of its populace too.

Ok fine. I accept your premise wholeheartedly but it doesn't mean anything in the context of this conversation. I definitely agree that the majority of the American population is protectionist, but we were talking about a select few individuals...the financially elite owners of companies who outsource labor, they aren't the majority.

zebrakiller 04-26-2012 02:02 PM

Re: If I Wanted America To Fail.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacon (Post 6011308)
No government in the world is not an automation, it's run by people. The people who are elected into office are chosen by the citizens which you speak of, the government officials are in theory elected by the will of the majority of citizens who are eligible to vote. So in essence we the people have created our problems by allowing our government to fall so low, as the narrator of the video puts it. If you call the American government protectionist, you are calling the majority of its populace too.

the populace is arguably protectionist ur right, but the bas peuple has little say in policy, perhaps contrary to popular belief. but the big corps.? u were right in ur last post, theyre not protectionist at all, everything outsourced to china. but that sort of half in half out protectionism is what is keeping america's tiered economic system as it is. the capitalists make the profit importing primary products, but those profits dont trickle down to the wages. n those imports are only cheap because markets still have set prices enforced by protectionist govts ie US. so the guy in the vid confuses me cus he's arguing that free markets are gonna save the current american way of life? when in actuality it will do the exact opposite, major american industries being protected by govt $, ie auto, are gonna bust, unemployment kicks up, thats a huge economic burden ( and due to human nature, the rich will stay rich, the middle man poor, and the poor get poorer). plus costs of primary products kick up since demand is thru the roof so the market price will skyrocket.

EDIT: basically what JLI2 said in more words lol.

sagemaster777 04-26-2012 02:04 PM

Re: If I Wanted America To Fail.
 
too long didn't watch.

Wooster 04-26-2012 02:05 PM

Re: If I Wanted America To Fail.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacon (Post 6011308)
No government in the world is not an automation, it's run by people. The people who are elected into office are chosen by the citizens which you speak of, the government officials are in theory elected by the will of the majority of citizens who are eligible to vote. So in essence we the people have created our problems by allowing our government to fall so low, as the narrator of the video puts it. If you call the American government protectionist, you are calling the majority of its populace too.

The Chinese will be glad to know that. :roll:

Bacon 04-27-2012 12:16 PM

Re: If I Wanted America To Fail.
 
Since you're watering it down to what he said zebra, I won't quote ya. Albiet what you said was completely different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLI2infinity (Post 6011722)
Ok fine. I accept your premise wholeheartedly but it doesn't mean anything in the context of this conversation. I definitely agree that the majority of the American population is protectionist, but we were talking about a select few individuals...the financially elite owners of companies who outsource labor, they aren't the majority.

The party system is flawed jl, but hardly any of them are really rich to run on their own income. They are supported by the financial backing of their party once they get into office. At any rate they are completely relevant to the topic at hand because in a representative society the people elect based on their values. These so called elites you speak of are given permission to run our government by the majority of the people who bother to cast their voices in elections.

Btw look at Meg Whitman in California's last governor election, she lost and was supporting herself.

@wooster: What?

White Zetsu 04-27-2012 06:13 PM

Re: If I Wanted America To Fail.
 
this was an interesting video. he's kinda right though.
Edit: Whoah i read some of the posts now
Spoiler:
@bacon
A. Climate change can be used to describe a very minor temp. difference from one year to the next, which is normal for earth. earths climate varies depending on sun activity, along with average cycles and global warming (I mean in the sense of greenhouse gases which is true, and actually helps earth since the average tempature would be about 3 degrees if was not for greenhouse gases) earth has done this plenty of times in the past, even before fossils fuels were being burned by man.
B. Steve Jobs, Thomas Edison, and Henry Ford made the quality of life for the world much much better, and for the most part, they were not after money. Esp. Thomas Edison. the world would be incredibly different without them today. The internet you're on may not have existed without Edison and jobs. \
C. Extracting fossil fuels would 1 spark job growth 2 help the american economy and 3 allow cheaper gas and power. yes, we should not go crazy drilling or logging, but both are resources that america has and should use.but i also believe that america needs "green energy" (fossil fuels are actually relatively clean with today's tech)as well. but liberals are hypocrites. in a town called cherry valley, NY, a wind turbine company wanted to put wind turbines up. this would have been good for the town. now this is a fairly conservative town, but the majority of higher ups are liberals, since there is a major center for the arts nearby,along with a large liberal population. almost all of the conservatives supported this, as it would increase revenue, jobs, and overall life in Cherry Valley. it was the liberals who shot this down.
D. Far more species have been wiped out by natural selection than humans have made extinct. 99% of all species that have ever existed were wiped out before humans came along, and yes there should be protection for them, but unless they're endagered, there's not much harm in in doing something to hurt the species.

Bacon 04-28-2012 09:40 AM

Re: If I Wanted America To Fail.
 
Quote:

A. Climate change can be used to describe a very minor temp. difference from one year to the next, which is normal for earth. earths climate varies depending on sun activity, along with average cycles and global warming (I mean in the sense of greenhouse gases which is true, and actually helps earth since the average tempature would be about 3 degrees if was not for greenhouse gases) earth has done this plenty of times in the past, even before fossils fuels were being burned by man.
Speculative, that could be any number of reasons from shifts in the earth's rotation to nature spewing co2 in the atmosphere themselves through volcanic eruptions. Though presently you're referring to weather and not climate. Weather varies from day to day and season to season, a shift in climate is bit more drastic as it's over a long period of time.
Link

Quote:

. Steve Jobs, Thomas Edison, and Henry Ford made the quality of life for the world much much better, and for the most part, they were not after money. Esp. Thomas Edison. the world would be incredibly different without them today. The internet you're on may not have existed without Edison and jobs. \
Perspective, Jobs was a business man. Him being richer did nothing for anyone else,but he did bring us nice apple products.

Quote:

C. Extracting fossil fuels would 1 spark job growth 2 help the american economy and 3 allow cheaper gas and power. yes, we should not go crazy drilling or logging, but both are resources that america has and should use.but i also believe that america needs "green energy" (fossil fuels are actually relatively clean with today's tech)as well. but liberals are hypocrites. in a town called cherry valley, NY, a wind turbine company wanted to put wind turbines up. this would have been good for the town. now this is a fairly conservative town, but the majority of higher ups are liberals, since there is a major center for the arts nearby,along with a large liberal population. almost all of the conservatives supported this, as it would increase revenue, jobs, and overall life in Cherry Valley. it was the liberals who shot this down.
Party differences don't matter, moderates win elections.Temporary is still temporary, Americans use too much energy to not go crazy.

Quote:

D. Far more species have been wiped out by natural selection than humans have made extinct. 99% of all species that have ever existed were wiped out before humans came along, and yes there should be protection for them, but unless they're endagered, there's not much harm in in doing something to hurt the species.
Oh right the hunting mention. Yes 99 percent of the earth's species in the past have died out due to nature's shifts,but humans are speeding up the process drastically. Though we can't help it, we're a cancerous species.

JLI2infinity 04-28-2012 06:31 PM

Re: If I Wanted America To Fail.
 
^I'm startin to like this guy lol


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