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View Full Version : Spoiler: Remake: Madara is dead, but Tobi = Madara


deidara330
04-26-2011, 03:29 PM
This is a theory I've had for a while, but anyways. To begin, I'd like to say that IMO, what makes a good theory is plausability, regardless whether or not it will happen. A "better" theory is simply one that is both plausable and more likely to happen. However, I'm only aiming for plausability. That's most important.

To start off, the sixth coffin. When Kabuto met Madara at Mountain's Grave, he summoned five former Akatsuki members before Madara, and requested that Madara give him Sasuke. When Madara questioned what would happen if he refused, Kabuto smirked (the smirk is crucial to this theory) and called upon a sixth coffin. After this happened, Madara recognized the person Kabuto had summoned and became shocked. Madara then reluctantly agreed to let Kabuto ally with him.

Now, the title of this thread pretty much tells you who I think was in the coffin, but I'll say it anyways: It was Madara. When Madara asked Kabuto "Where did you get that!?", Kabuto responded by saying "It's complicated... Don't worry. I won't tell anyone about this." This one line means the only person it can be is Madara. What Kabuto said means that he made the assumption Madara would be upset if he were to tell anyone about who he summoned, but why would Madara care? If Kabuto had summoned anyone known to be dead, no one would care. Edo Tensei is a jutsu created to revive the dead, so for anyone to care at all about who Kabuto could summon, it would have to be someone believed to still be alive.

Now, that narrows it down to someone believed to still be alive. However, it must pertain to Madara as well. Only three people have a close personal connection to Madara and are believed to be alive: Sasuke, Zetsu, and Madara himself. Sasuke poses no threat to Madara, so Madara wouldn't say fighting Kabuto would weaken him in that case. Zetsu isn't very plausable, considering the very nature of the current Zetsu's existance means there could never be a second person similar, and for Kabuto to have revived Zetsu there would have to be two.

Madara, however, is plausable. Aside from the (low) possibility that someone is pretending to be Madara, there is also a famous battle in which Madara is believed to have died: The battle against Hashirama at the Final Valley. Therefore, the most likely person Kabuto revived is Madara Uchiha, and Madara Uchiha is most likely to have died at the Final Valley. For Madara to have been summoned, his soul needs to exist in the Pure World, and for his soul to be in the Pure World, he had to have died. Madara's most famous and publicized near-death is against Hashirama, so if he really died, it was there.

That isn't all, though. Madara fits all the criteria given, but most of the criteria given come from Madara's own reaction to the summoning of himself. Who is Tobi if not Madara? Well, Tobi is still Madara. Tobi has the bloodline of Madara (Uchiha) and all known powers of Madara besides the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan. In addition, two different shinobi (Jiraiya and Minato Namikaze), both intelligent, independantly arrived at the same conclusion; That Madara Uchiha was still alive. Itachi, another intelligent shinobi, spent a long time with Madara and didn't even suspect that Tobi was not Madara. Tobi also has occasional emotional reactions to things that would fit Madara's personality. So, Tobi is most likely Madara Uchiha.

How can Tobi be Madara if Madara is dead? Well, let's step back for a moment. Let's assume that a soul is necessary to be alive, and that when one dies, one's soul goes to the Pure World, both of which are reasonable assumptions. Therefore, for Madara to have died in battle against Hashirama and still be alive today, Madara either A: Had the soul of another person inserted into his body after he died, or B: Already contained two souls in his body when Hashirama killed him.

In either case, Zetsu is aware of Madara's situation. He calls Madara "Tobi" even though Madara has introduced himself as so to every other person he has ever met, at least since Itachi's death. Therefore, in the case of A, Zetsu inserted the soul of another person into Madara's body, giving Madara his conciousness yet causing him to lose the Eternal Mangekyo by losing his own soul. The name of the person who had the soul before Zetsu inserted it would most likely have been Tobi, explaining why Zetsu calls Madara Tobi. Basically, he would be doing that because Madara is living off of Tobi's soul, meaning that in a technical manner of speaking, he is Tobi and not Madara.

In the case of B, the second soul is Izuna's. When Madara obtained the Eternal Mangekyo, his soul may have merged with Izuna's somehow, and when Hashirama killed him, only Madara's soul died. Because Madara's soul was lost, Madara lost the Eternal Mangekyo, and this may also have resulted in whatever facial change causes him to wear a mask in addition to his incomplete regeneration and goo blood. At this event, what happened is that Madara most likely died temporarily and revived off of Izuna's soul, causing massive changes to his body while still retaining his powers as Madara. In this case, Zetsu is either a witness to the event or Zetsu was literally created as a by-product of the event. Either way, Zetsu probably calls Madara "Tobi" because he's not Izuna or Madara anymore. In fact, he's hardly much of anyone.

There are still many things this theory doesn't explain. For example, how Madara was able to "give" Nagato his Rinnegan, or why Zetsu is Zetsu (it's only explained as one of two possibilities in Case B). In either case, Kabuto's requirement of DNA to revive Madara's soul can likely be explained by saying that during Madara's temporary state of death, someone took a sample of Madara's DNA that Kabuto was able to find in the present day. It can also be explained by the speculation that in his revival, Madara left behind a body of his old self, which he hid, and Kabuto found (hence Madara's more specific "Where did you get that" and not "How").

To summarize:

Kabuto revived Madara. Tobi is still Madara. Madara died fighting Hashirama, but came back to life, because either Zetsu placed the soul of someone else in Madara or Madara's body also contained Izuna's soul and Madara lives off that.

If there's an impossibility or implausability anywhere in here, please let me know.

Jakropha
04-26-2011, 03:30 PM
Longer than mine, so in theory

You wiN!

Nick Tasogare
04-26-2011, 03:32 PM
tl;dr

I would just like to say that obviously Tobi is a ghost. Whether it's Madara's is yet to be seen I guess.

kalmeast
04-26-2011, 04:05 PM
Parts of your theory is good like preposition A. where madara has Izuna's soul as a result of the transplanted Sharingan. Enlighten me on this: If that were true, Izuna must be soul(less) after Madara took his eye, and gained izuna's soul correct? In that case, Kabuto should NOT have been able to raise Itachi with ET since Sasuke was wearing Itachi's eyes already...that's just my thought..

secondly, I want you to consider this rear happening that I just understood recently...
Madara said his chakra was especially strong correct. This is why he lived that long and possibly came back to life after he was killed by hashirama right? well, we dont know how true this is but take a look at SASUKE vs HAKU...
Sasuke has especially strong chakra even possibly stronger than Madara. All the while he fought Haku, Haku purposely missed his vital organs correct. Haku was in control of the Senbon. But when haku got serious and decided to Senbonize Naruto, Sasuke jumped into it to save naruto. This case, Haku had no control of avoiding sasuke's vital organs. Sasuke did die but came back to life. What brought him back. Recently, I think it's his strong chakra but it was too early in the series to introduce that...just a thought.

by the way, i like your theory...u've earned plausibility.

deidara330
04-26-2011, 04:46 PM
tl;dr

I would just like to say that obviously Tobi is a ghost. Whether it's Madara's is yet to be seen I guess.Were you too lazy to even read the summary? Also, Ghosts have never been in the series so far, so it's not as possible.Parts of your theory is good like preposition A. where madara has Izuna's soul as a result of the transplanted Sharingan. Enlighten me on this: If that were true, Izuna must be soul(less) after Madara took his eye, and gained izuna's soul correct? In that case, Kabuto should NOT have been able to raise Itachi with ET since Sasuke was wearing Itachi's eyes already...that's just my thought..

secondly, I want you to consider this rear happening that I just understood recently...
Madara said his chakra was especially strong correct. This is why he lived that long and possibly came back to life after he was killed by hashirama right? well, we dont know how true this is but take a look at SASUKE vs HAKU...
Sasuke has especially strong chakra even possibly stronger than Madara. All the while he fought Haku, Haku purposely missed his vital organs correct. Haku was in control of the Senbon. But when haku got serious and decided to Senbonize Naruto, Sasuke jumped into it to save naruto. This case, Haku had no control of avoiding sasuke's vital organs. Sasuke did die but came back to life. What brought him back. Recently, I think it's his strong chakra but it was too early in the series to introduce that...just a thought.

by the way, i like your theory...u've earned plausibility.That's true... It may simply be that Kabuto had already summoned Itachi before Sasuke got the transplant and the binding of Edo Tensei kept his soul from merging with Sasuke's.

After Sasuke survived, he speculated that Haku had never intended to kill him.

Thank you.