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Nick Tasogare
04-17-2011, 06:08 PM
We have Freedom of Religion, but there are some that believe we are a Christian Nation. There are others who believe that we are not a nation under any one religion. What do you think?

I'm watching Nick News: Freedom to Believe... Or Not so yea xD

Ur Mom
04-17-2011, 07:29 PM
It is by fact a Christian Nation. almost 87% is Christian, and only 1% or less each for Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, or Hindus. Also, the balance of power is leaned ridiculously towards Christians. So yeah, no mistaking it is

deidara330
04-17-2011, 07:31 PM
The majority is Christian, but that doesn't make it a Christian nation, because to say the United States is Christian is to say everyone in it is Christian as well, and I'm not religious.

sasu_girl
04-17-2011, 07:32 PM
it's technically a nation with no national religion but you can't miss the christian religion overwhelming the rest. our breaks are even revolved around christian holidays. (christmas and easter)

Ur Mom
04-17-2011, 07:50 PM
The majority is Christian, but that doesn't make it a Christian nation, because to say the United States is Christian is to say everyone in it is Christian as well, and I'm not religious.
Is India a Hindu country? Yes

Is it populated fully of Hindus? NO-WHERE-CLOSE, but the POWER is in the Hindus, and that's the only part that matters

puppetmasterpossession
04-17-2011, 08:05 PM
/Reads The Pledge Of Alligence

One nation under Allah...wait...that isn't right.

Nick Tasogare
04-17-2011, 08:06 PM
Is India a Hindu country? Yes

Is it populated fully of Hindus? NO-WHERE-CLOSE, but the POWER is in the Hindus, and that's the only part that matters

So just because it works that way in other places means it works that way here? Because I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

/Reads The Pledge Of Alligence

One nation under Allah...wait...that isn't right.

God, Creator, etc doesn't necessarily mean The God of the Bible.

J-Sun Tasogare
04-17-2011, 08:11 PM
It used to be, now it's not.

Nick Tasogare
04-17-2011, 08:13 PM
It used to be, now it's not.

Um, it never was. It was founded by Christians, yes, but it was founded on the principle of Freedom, including religion. It never had, and does not have an official religion.

Bacon
04-17-2011, 08:30 PM
We have Freedom of Religion, but there are some that believe we are a Christian Nation. There are others who believe that we are not a nation under any one religion. What do you think?

I'm watching Nick News: Freedom to Believe... Or Not so yea xD

The United states is far more diverse than it was in the eighteenth century, nick. This is like asking if the United states is a nation of (Insert race). Our cultural diversity is so greatly varied that many things we take for granted would not be here without all the different cultures adding to the melting pot. xD

Jutsu Junkie
04-17-2011, 09:32 PM
It is by fact a Christian Nation. almost 87% is Christian, and only 1% or less each for Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, or Hindus. Also, the balance of power is leaned ridiculously towards Christians. So yeah, no mistaking it is

That's really a poor way to judge it, because those numbers are skewed. Even if I agreed with your definition of what makes a nation one religion or another, this information doesn't really cut it, simply because most of those people are only paying lip service. I mean, where did your info come from? Why does it not give the statistic of people who aren't particularly religious, or just spiritual, or just believe in an amorphous idea of God? 87% is inflated.

The majority is Christian, but that doesn't make it a Christian nation, because to say the United States is Christian is to say everyone in it is Christian as well, and I'm not religious.

Which isn't what anyone means when they say a nation is this or that religion.

Um, it never was. It was founded by Christians, yes, but it was founded on the principle of Freedom, including religion. It never had, and does not have an official religion.

Hell, it wasn't even founded entirely by Christians. Even some of the heroes weren't at all Christian. Thomas Paine was an atheist -- and outspoken about it; never heard about those pamphlets, did you? Benjamin Franklin was a deist, which by definition cannot be based on Christianity.

The whole idea is absurd, because the basis of our laws, which constitute a civil tradition, is that you can't make laws according to religious establishments. It's called the establishment clause.

The United States is secular by statute and history. Our politicians can talk about their faith all they want, because it makes many of us feel all cozy inside while they're lying to our faces, but that means squat. If we were a Christian nation, we wouldn't have Muslims in the Chaplian Corps of the Navy. Why do I say that? Because no matter what anyone says, the power of rulers over their people rests in only two places: its military and it's traditions (not it's laws). And both those things say we have no established state religion -- which is what it means to say a nation is this or that religion.

~NarutoSAGEm0DE~
04-17-2011, 09:34 PM
Um, it never was. It was founded by Christians, yes, but it was founded on the principle of Freedom, including religion. It never had, and does not have an official religion.
^ This

Ur Mom
04-18-2011, 03:17 AM
That's really a poor way to judge it, because those numbers are skewed. Even if I agreed with your definition of what makes a nation one religion or another, this information doesn't really cut it, simply because most of those people are only paying lip service. I mean, where did your info come from? Why does it not give the statistic of people who aren't particularly religious, or just spiritual, or just believe in an amorphous idea of God? 87% is inflated.
Wikipedia, but I just saw I used the 1990 count, so NOW it's 80%

Either way, power is power, that's the part that make the difference, the first Muslim politician came only 3 years ago, the Jews currently only have 10 representatives, although it seems in the past of 1900's they flourished in the senate, Hindu's also had 2 or 3 representatives during this time. And really the numbers in the politics do reflect populational religion.

Senko
04-18-2011, 03:44 AM
Most of it's Christain, but you do have freedom of religion.

Jutsu Junkie
04-18-2011, 07:10 AM
Wikipedia, but I just saw I used the 1990 count, so NOW it's 80%

Either way, power is power, that's the part that make the difference, the first Muslim politician came only 3 years ago, the Jews currently only have 10 representatives, although it seems in the past of 1900's they flourished in the senate, Hindu's also had 2 or 3 representatives during this time. And really the numbers in the politics do reflect populational religion.

My point is that the numbers you are citing actually don't have anything to do with power, since Christian beliefs are not enforced as law. Saudi Arabia, on the other hand, can be counted as a Muslim nation, because they enforce Sharia. Another example is Bhutan, which is essentially a theocracy -- as is Iran -- although they are on opposite ends of the insanity spectrum. Just because almost everyone running a nation identifies with a particular religion doesn't mean that nation is being run under that religion. It's simply not true. This isn't Iran, or Saudi Arabia, or Bhutan. So calling America a "Christian nation" is misleading. It suggests that people here can't freely exercise their religion, or that the government has any sort of authority over religion, both of which are wrong.

sasu_girl
04-18-2011, 07:30 AM
in 2008 it was actually 76%

and if you want the citation
"Study: Percentage of U.S. Christians falls Religion in America." Virginian Pilot 9 Mar. 2009: A2. InfoTrac Newsstand. Web. 18 Apr. 2011.

just thought i'd trow that in there ^.^"

and the url for the database(if you can access it)
http://0-find.galegroup.com.catalog.cantonpl.org/gps/infomark.do?&contentSet=IAC-Documents&type=retrieve&tabID=T004&prodId=IPS&docId=CJ195127861&source=gale&srcprod=STND&userGroupName=lom_cantonpl&version=1.0

Ur Mom
04-18-2011, 10:48 AM
My point is that the numbers you are citing actually don't have anything to do with power, since Christian beliefs are not enforced as law. Saudi Arabia, on the other hand, can be counted as a Muslim nation, because they enforce Sharia. Another example is Bhutan, which is essentially a theocracy -- as is Iran -- although they are on opposite ends of the insanity spectrum. Just because almost everyone running a nation identifies with a particular religion doesn't mean that nation is being run under that religion. It's simply not true. This isn't Iran, or Saudi Arabia, or Bhutan. So calling America a "Christian nation" is misleading. It suggests that people here can't freely exercise their religion, or that the government has any sort of authority over religion, both of which are wrong.
No need to argue with that logic, because there's nothing you can do against it :geek:


Still, the fact that the U.S. is held by Christians have significance in the political field ALL the time

sasu_girl
04-18-2011, 10:53 AM
sasu gives input. the united states is not officially a christian country. there are many politically influential people here who are christian, but that can't be helped considering
1) a majority of the united states is christian
and
2) many christians only think christians are good people for holding many of the same morals and beliefs and feel that voting christians into positions of power is what's best for the united states.


so the united states is essentially run by christians but it's not technically a christian country ^.^"

PlatonicZombie
04-18-2011, 12:05 PM
Silly question. Just look on the one thing we covet, money. We were founded by Christains, and we are still a nation blabbering about the same crap. But the person in my sig said "God is dead". The point was that the majority claim to follow this faith but if you look at how they act, they do not seem to follow its teachings. Our president has to be a person of "faith", and a "family" man. If he does not appear to be so he will not get elected. Yet, the majority of them are all corrupt pieces of crap.

The way I see it. We're still a nation under one faith. But this faith is not Christianity it's Captialism. So long as money is free flowing, everyone is happy and everyone has faith.

mrsticky005
04-18-2011, 04:23 PM
Silly question. Just look on the one thing we covet, money. We were founded by Christains, and we are still a nation blabbering about the same crap. But the person in my sig said "God is dead". The point was that the majority claim to follow this faith but if you look at how they act, they do not seem to follow its teachings. Our president has to be a person of "faith", and a "family" man. If he does not appear to be so he will not get elected. Yet, the majority of them are all corrupt pieces of crap.

The way I see it. We're still a nation under one faith. But this faith is not Christianity it's Captialism. So long as money is free flowing, everyone is happy and everyone has faith.


Considering a good portion of the country seems to be anti-capitalists
that's definitely not the case. Also considering how uncapitalist the
country is it's even less the case. I dunno why so many people seem
to think that that we live in capitalism. We're actually closer to being
socialists then we are to being capitalists.

If there's anything that "unites" this country that we can all agree on...

It's that we can't agree on much of anything.

PlatonicZombie
04-18-2011, 05:14 PM
Considering a good portion of the country seems to be anti-capitalists
that's definitely not the case. Also considering how uncapitalist the
country is it's even less the case. I dunno why so many people seem
to think that that we live in capitalism. We're actually closer to being
socialists then we are to being capitalists.

If there's anything that "unites" this country that we can all agree on...

It's that we can't agree on much of anything.

I would say facism rather socialism. This country is stuck on certain biasis to be considered socialist.

mrsticky005
04-18-2011, 09:04 PM
I would say facism rather socialism. This country is stuck on certain biasis to be considered socialist.

I don't think we're fascist. At least not yet and hopefully we never will be.
But socialism and fascism are actually much closer together than most people think. I think it's because Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia were so opposed to each other people think that fascism and socialism are radically different from each other. Though this isn't to say socialism=fascism. That's not true.
But socialism is closer to being like fascism than the often compared capitalism is to fascism. However it's often not capitalism that is being
compared but our mixed economy that if half "capitalist" and half "socialist".

Jutsu Junkie
04-19-2011, 12:22 AM
No need to argue with that logic, because there's nothing you can do against it :geek:


Still, the fact that the U.S. is held by Christians have significance in the political field ALL the time

I can and will argue against your flawed logic. Does the fact that most of the power in the land is held by men make us a Male Nation, or does the fact that most of our voters are actually women make us a Female Nation? Do you see how weak your position is now? Citing percentages for belief systems is a nebulous and inaccurate means of defining the balance of power in a system -- especially in a republic, and especially when the quality and character of that belief isn't even ascertained.

@mrsticky

I agree. Hardcore socialism usually slides right into fascism. Stalin was definitely a fascist in all but name, despite his dispute with Hitler. Both fascism and socialism, at full expression, are merely outgrowths of despotism (authoritarianism).

If the US were actually a Christian nation, we would also be a fascist one, because organized religions are concerned with the conforming of the person as filtered through the interpretation of a deity's revelation. When executed by men, this conforming usually means absolute coercion, and the heart of fascism is nothing if not absolute coercion.

PlatonicZombie
04-19-2011, 10:03 AM
Considering a good portion of the country seems to be anti-capitalists
that's definitely not the case. Also considering how uncapitalist the
country is it's even less the case. I dunno why so many people seem
to think that that we live in capitalism. We're actually closer to being
socialists then we are to being capitalists.

If there's anything that "unites" this country that we can all agree on...

It's that we can't agree on much of anything.


Also, just wanted to point out, that while we seem to have an anti-capitalists portion of the country it's captialism that profits upon anti-capitalist. It brands anti-captialist sentiment and sells it back to the public. There's no escaping capitalism really because you're always brought into talking on it's terms; ownership, money, etc... I have to say I do somewhat disagree that we are not a capitalistic society. I think we are very much a capitalistic society. Sure you can try and say it's not a "pure" capitalistic society, but there are no pure systems in the world. (I think that has been said on here all ready though haha!)

mrsticky005
04-19-2011, 11:20 AM
Also, just wanted to point out, that while we seem to have an anti-capitalists portion of the country it's captialism that profits upon anti-capitalist. It brands anti-captialist sentiment and sells it back to the public. There's no escaping capitalism really because you're always brought into talking on it's terms; ownership, money, etc... I have to say I do somewhat disagree that we are not a capitalistic society. I think we are very much a capitalistic society. Sure you can try and say it's not a "pure" capitalistic society, but there are no pure systems in the world. (I think that has been said on here all ready though haha!)


I think we only have the illusion of capitalism in the country.
When you consider the things that make up a capitalist economy
and you think what we actually have we don't have a capitalist society.
And while I think we're closer to being socialist I don't think we are socialist. At least not yet. However we're closer to being socialist.
The opposite of capitalism is not socialism but rather communism.
And while you say there are no pure systems in the world (which is true)
a pure capitalist society does not exist for very different reasons then
why a pure communist society does not exist. Pure Communism will not
exist because it tries to be too perfect and relies on perfect conditions.
Pure Capitalism does not exist because it is not allowed to exist.
Since pure capitalism severely limits the power of the state it won't
happen either because the state's only real goal is to get more power.
But anywho what would make us a capitalist society that we don't have?

1. Risks.

Everyone wants the benefits of capitalism but fewer and fewer people are willing to accept the risks of capitalism. People often have unrealistic expectations of capitalism and think that everyone wins in capitalism
or at least everyone is supposed to win in capitalism. But this is just not
true. There will always be plenty of failures in capitalism. However capitalism is a system in which anyone can win and anyone can fail.
The problem with other systems is that it tries to let everyone win and
that's just not possible. Although some people (especially entrepreneurs)
still take risks in our mixed economy, we have business that are "too big to fail". This is not possible to have in a capitalist society. In capitalism these businesses would have to either "do or die". Then if they did die something
would replace it sooner or later and the market would continue. A free market can be delayed but it can never be stopped---except by the state.

2, Ownership

It's nice to think that we own what we have. After all we spent money on it and we worked hard for that money. But when it's all said and done what you have the government can and will take away when it so pleases.
For instance eminent domain. You think you own your own private property but guess what? You really don't. The government takes it for it's own use and kicks you to the curb. If they're nice they'll give you a fraction of what your property is actually worth.

3. Taxes/Government Spending.

Now I think taxes can still exist in a capitalist society. But not at the level we have now. Also since a lot of our taxes goes into socialist programs like social security and medicare it makes us even less capitalist. It's basically like this. You pay the government. The goverment then gives money to your neighbor. Or at least says it will. Which in fact it probably won't.

4. Competition

This goes along with 1. Risks. Since the government will not allow certain businesses to fail this in turn does not allow other businesses to succeed.
With this being the case there is no true competition since in true competition anyone can fail and in turn anyone can succeed.
Essentially the government is creating monopolies. While De Facto
monopolies can exist within competition (for instance inventors
are by nature a de facto monopoly--that is until their invention is copied)
De jure monopolies cannot exist within competition. As soon as the government is the reason one company succeeds or another fails then competition no longer exists.


There are of course other reasons why we're not capitalist. But that's all I can think of for now.




On the actual subject of the debate...


Although we were founded by Christians we are not a Christian nation.
And actually as a Christian I consider this to be a good thing as I think
theocratic governments are among the worst (see the Middle East with
it's many Islamic Theocracies and see Medieval Europe that was more
or less under the control of the church.) I don't think they are bad
because religion is bad--not even with Islam though I disagree with it.
I think the problem is that mankind is that whether or not religion is flawed
mankind is. Of course the religion itself can be flawed by it's very nature.
But even with a "perfect religion" it can be ruined by the imperfectness of humans.
People make mistakes. But they do more than just make mistakes, People can be
downright evil. Power and control which are byproducts of theocracy allow mankind's
evil to go unchecked. Even if the religion is perfect mankind will twist it for his own gain.
However there is two key ingredient that truly makes theocracies able to be so corrupt
and this is ignorance and illiteracy. People often point to religion (specifically Christianity)
to be the cause of the Dark Ages. But really the problem was one of illiteracy. Back then
most people could not read. Instead they had to rely on what the church said.
What was there to stop the church from straying from scripture and doing whatever they felt?
Virtually nothing. Then came along one of the greatest inventions of all time The Gutenberg
Printing Press which of course produced The Gutenberg Bible. Now the common man could
learn to read (and write) and actually study scripture. The common man could call the chuch's bluff.
This would soon lead to the Protestant Reformation. People read scripture and saw that in at least
their own understanding that the chuch was wrong on this or that doctrine. No longer could the
church do as it pleased. Of course the church wasn't about to let go so easily and there was much
bloodshed. No longer was just the monks and church leader who could study scripture and decide
for themselves what it meant to them but now the common man could do the same.
On the other hand I think State Atheism is just as bad. Soviet Russia is of course the most
infamous case of State Atheism. While I'm sure there are plenty of hardline atheists who wish
for State Atheism, like the religious extremists who wish for theocracy they don't realize what
they are asking for or really what they are willing to give up and that is freedom. If man is not
free to choose what he believes then what makes man free? State atheism suppressed not
only religious thought but really in a sense all free speech as the state could simply say any
position that they did not hold, whether true or untrue was a religious one. Soviet Russia
created the 2nd worst genocide in human history (I'm pretty sure China is number 1. Though
they were also State Atheistic) and it's really no surprise. Again it is not atheism itself that
causes these atrocities nor is it religion itself. It is the abuse of power and denial of free thought
that allows such horrors. Countries that are de facto atheist or de facto religious are not bad.
Rather it is countries that are de jure atheist or de jure religious that are atrocious.
The United States is neither a de jure atheist or a de jure religious country. It is a de facto both religious and atheist country. People in the United States are free to choose what they believe.
Churches, mosques, synagogues and what not can all be feet away from each other.
But there is another enemy to our freedom. That is political correctness. Political correctness
says it's ok to badmouth such and such belief (or disbelief) but will forbid ridicule of another
belief or disbelief. Slowly but surely it is denying our right to debate and our right to free thought.

J-Sun Tasogare
04-19-2011, 08:39 PM
Um, it never was. It was founded by Christians, yes, but it was founded on the principle of Freedom, including religion. It never had, and does not have an official religion.
Yes it did, the country was founded from the Church of England, they used to force you to go. However once we broke away from them we gave everyone a choice, and the only reason we did that is because help of the France and other immigrints coming in after the war. The morals set up in America are from the bible or used to be, President's take the oath on the bible, they were all religious men. So yes this country didn't make everyone have to be Christian but it had Christian Morales, Christian leaders, and all that. We were a Christian nation, for at least a little while until all the other Religions flooded in.

Jutsu Junkie
04-19-2011, 09:06 PM
We never had an established state religion, therefore we were never a Christian nation. That's what it means. Just having people in charge that are partial to a religion isn't enough. They have to be making and enforcing laws that support that religion, and they weren't. Some of the colonies were specifically setup to escape the Church of England, and their representatives wouldn't have joined the Union without the Establishment Clause (which bans federal sponsorship of any church).

mrsticky005
04-19-2011, 09:18 PM
We never had an established state religion, therefore we were never a Christian nation. That's what it means. Just having people in charge that are partial to a religion isn't enough. They have to be making and enforcing laws that support that religion, and they weren't. Some of the colonies were specifically setup to escape the Church of England, and their representatives wouldn't have joined the Union without the Establishment Clause (which bans federal sponsorship of any church).

Also many of the founders were Deists and not Christians.

In any case if the U.S was a Christian nation it would probably be a Puritan Christian Nation which I doubt is the brand of Christianity that certain Christians are so adamant about being the "official" religion of the U.S.

By the way are there still Puritans? Doesn't seem too popular these days.

Jutsu Junkie
04-19-2011, 09:45 PM
Also many of the founders were Deists and not Christians.

In any case if the U.S was a Christian nation it would probably be a Puritan Christian Nation which I doubt is the brand of Christianity that certain Christians are so adamant about being the "official" religion of the U.S.

By the way are there still Puritans? Doesn't seem too popular these days.

Hell, at least one was a dyed-in-the-wool atheist. We are talking about Enlightenment Era educated folks here. They were not nearly as monolithic in their religious beliefs as people seem to suppose. That was the point.

Kreegah!!!
04-20-2011, 11:22 AM
/Reads The Pledge Of Alligence

One nation under Allah...wait...that isn't right.

I haven't much to say yet in this debate, but I wanted to point out that the Pledge of Allegiance argument is laughably flawed. The Pledge wasn't even thought up until ridiculously recently. Also, if God means Christian God, then the whole pledge of allegiance is a sham, just like Court swear-ins, because they both explicitly go against scripture. :lol: But that's another topic for later.

mrsticky005
04-20-2011, 01:24 PM
I haven't much to say yet in this debate, but I wanted to point out that the Pledge of Allegiance argument is laughably flawed. The Pledge wasn't even thought up until ridiculously recently. Also, if God means Christian God, then the whole pledge of allegiance is a sham, just like Court swear-ins, because they both explicitly go against scripture. :lol: But that's another topic for later.


The irony of this=my head exploding.

Sorrende
04-20-2011, 01:35 PM
It's uplifting for a foreigner to see that US people are indeed much more critical of the legitimacy of their government than what is advertised.

But, seen from outside, I can tell you one thing: you're not a Christian nation, you're a Masonic nation. Your government's ties with Freemasonry (not the good one) and Paganism are much tighter than you would imagine.

Wooster
04-20-2011, 01:37 PM
Also many of the founders were Deists and not Christians.

In any case if the U.S was a Christian nation it would probably be a Puritan Christian Nation which I doubt is the brand of Christianity that certain Christians are so adamant about being the "official" religion of the U.S.

By the way are there still Puritans? Doesn't seem too popular these days.
Interesting enough that was the fad at the time. Ifhhte founding happened twenty years earlier (before the Great Awakening which spread out beliefs from Puritanism) or twenty years after, the US found probably have a much stronger invocation towards a Christian religion.

Then again, it was this separation from England norms including religion that may have caused the Revolution, so perhaps it was the only way.

Shikamaru Nara
04-20-2011, 06:44 PM
It's populated by mostly Christians, but it's not our official religion.

It's not like in Rome when certain leaders forced religion and every inhabitant was affiliated with that religion.

KyuubiAkatsuki
04-20-2011, 07:33 PM
its kind of a Jersey Shore nation now

Slack 40
04-20-2011, 08:07 PM
No but we are a human nation

mrsticky005
04-21-2011, 06:18 PM
Interesting enough that was the fad at the time. Ifhhte founding happened twenty years earlier (before the Great Awakening which spread out beliefs from Puritanism) or twenty years after, the US found probably have a much stronger invocation towards a Christian religion.

Then again, it was this separation from England norms including religion that may have caused the Revolution, so perhaps it was the only way.


Ifhhte?

Did your keyboard regurgitate on you, Wooster?


But that's interesting it was a fad. Explains why you don't really see any Puritans these days.

jesse uzumaki
04-21-2011, 10:38 PM
the majority of beliefs in this nation is christianity but that doesn't mean this country is a christian nation that why we have a lot different relegions. thank god....

Naruto
04-23-2011, 01:21 PM
Is India a Hindu country? Yes

Is it populated fully of Hindus? NO-WHERE-CLOSE, but the POWER is in the Hindus, and that's the only part that matters
Yes India is a Hindu country, I'd know since I was born there.

Yes U.S. is a Christian nation since I get Christmas holidays and Good Friday off in school.

Wooster
04-23-2011, 01:32 PM
Ifhhte?

Did your keyboard regurgitate on you, Wooster?


But that's interesting it was a fad. Explains why you don't really see any Puritans these days.
That or the goats I barfed where having a field day.

I think I meant Unitarism was. I suppose Puritanism was a fad too, but it closely related to Lutheranism I guess.

sasu_girl
04-23-2011, 01:38 PM
Yes India is a Hindu country, I'd know since I was born there.

Yes U.S. is a Christian nation since I get Christmas holidays and Good Friday off in school.
people don't only get christmas off, also kwanzaa and hanukkah off(at least where i live)

and my spring break was during good friday.

and not only christians celebrate christmas and easter. i'm atheist and i celebrate it. my jewish and islam friends celebrate it. it's become more an american holiday in the united states.