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Yori
12-30-2010, 12:43 PM
Restrictions - Kamui

Starting Distance - 30 Meters

Who wins?

Miles Edgeworth
12-30-2010, 12:47 PM
I'd say Kakashi takes this. Kakashi's got the better movement and reaction speed and his fighting style should allow him to take Tsunade out.

Close range, Kakashi should be able to dodge any attacks Tsunade has and Raikiri could certainly get the job done if used correctly.

With long range Tsunade has little to hit Kakashi with, while Kakashi still has Lightning Hounds.

Katsuyu is probably the only thing Tsunade can cause Kakashi trouble with, and that's assuming she summons it. The problem is Katsuyu can't do much to Kakashi considering Kakashi can dodge acid and if Katsuyu can't squish him, it's pretty much useless.

Regarding Tsunade's hype as being Hokage, Kakashi was a potential candidate to be Hokage as well and we all know just how much Kishi focuses on Kakashi's potential with the whole "zomg thousand jutsu" stuff.

Lady Tsunade
12-30-2010, 03:54 PM
Hmmz hmmz hmmz. Kakashi could pull this one off.
But he'd need to be smart. It could go either way tbh.

BL Tsunade is undoubtably going to start with Katsuyu. If he tries running at her while she summons her he faces the risk of being crushed. Katsuyu can absorb him if he runs at her with close range attacks. She can tank any of his jutsu, the only way he can win is hitting Tsunade with something very quick, also note his chakra reserves aren't exactly huge. If he wastes any of it, he's done for, especially considering he has to continually dodge Acid Slime, which has a fairly large radius. Once he gets tired out, its as good as over. IC Kakashi usually tries to work out his opponents moves using Kage Bunshins, and then is able to formulate a strategy based on that. However, this is a BL one, and without Kamui, he may well use another jutsu like Lightning Hounds. Lightning Hounds are fast, but can they travel 30 metres quick enough for Tsunade to get hit? They'd also have to travel up Katsuyus back as they can't run in the air iirc. Katsuyu might be able to absorb them if thats the case.

Kakashi of course could have many Kage Bunshins run up Katsuyus back, Katsuyu has never shown to be able to absorb several people at once, unless mini-divisions were sent out to absorb them, in which case that plan would fail also. Reaching Tsunade is veeery difficult when shes on Katsuyu, even more so when Kakashi is BL, when he may not think as logically as he normally would. Honestly his best bet is spamming Lightning Hounds at different angles and ranges, of course, Tsunade can heal herself from such damage. And tank it to a degree.

Tsunade can't inflict damage to Kakashi until he's out of chakra, which could take a while. Chances are Kakashi can't inflict any damage to Tsunade because of her monstrous defence , and her healing abilities.

Kuromaki
12-30-2010, 05:28 PM
Kakashi can use hidden mole jutsu to go under the ground and avoid Acid Slime. But he could dodge it too.

A Lightning Wolf (yeah I say wolf cause it sounds cooler >__>) was able to cover the distance between Kakashi and Deva in a panel. However, I think Kakashi can only use like one or two at most since he has to guide them with his hand.

If Tsunade even tries to tank one she gets zapped. Even if she survives it she still gets paralyzed and then Kakashi can attack.

Tsunade can't heal from a Raikiri to the face, or the heart, or anywhere else that would be fatal.

Nyruss
12-30-2010, 05:31 PM
If you don't want Kakashi to omnirape, you'll need speed to be equal.

If you want the fight to be fair, restrict Kakashi from using chakra.

There is no possible way Kakashi could ever lose this fight.

He doesn't even need jutsus. Give him a kunai he'll still rape.

tyrell4life194
12-30-2010, 06:21 PM
Kakashi takes this.

Due to his superior Taijutsu skills, and Ninjutsu skills, Kakashi should be able to take Tsunade out. The only thing going for her are her chakra enhanced punches. However, due to his quick reflexes and his superior Taijutsu skills, Kakashi should be able to avoid all of her punches, and if used correctly, Kakashi should take her out with the Raikiri.

Tsunade has very little short range attacks, while Kakashi has the Lightning Hound. Even if Tsunade manages to summon Katsuyu, due to his reaction speed, Kakashi should be able to dodge all of Katsuyu's acid attacks. Moreso, Tsunade doesn't have the reaction speed, necessary to dodge Kakashi's Lightning Hound.

Overall, Kakashi takes this.

Lady Tsunade
12-31-2010, 04:31 AM
Kakashi can use hidden mole jutsu to go under the ground and avoid Acid Slime. But he could dodge it too.

A Lightning Wolf (yeah I say wolf cause it sounds cooler >__>) was able to cover the distance between Kakashi and Deva in a panel. However, I think Kakashi can only use like one or two at most since he has to guide them with his hand.

If Tsunade even tries to tank one she gets zapped. Even if she survives it she still gets paralyzed and then Kakashi can attack.

Tsunade can't heal from a Raikiri to the face, or the heart, or anywhere else that would be fatal.

Amg, Lightning wolves sounds so much cooler >_> Message Kishi and tell him to change it...NAO

Anyway, yeaah, he could, easily.

Tsunade can summon Katsuyu before the Hounds reach her. They have to travel 30 metres remember :o

Indeed

Haku stayed alive for a short while after being Raikiri'd in the heart. She could regen back from such an attack. Not to the face though. Of course, after Tsunade gets on top of Katsuyu, how will Kakashi get close range?

J-Sun Tasogare
12-31-2010, 09:43 AM
Amg, Lightning wolves sounds so much cooler >_> Message Kishi and tell him to change it...NAO

Anyway, yeaah, he could, easily.

Tsunade can summon Katsuyu before the Hounds reach her. They have to travel 30 metres remember :o

Indeed

Haku stayed alive for a short while after being Raikiri'd in the heart. She could regen back from such an attack. Not to the face though. Of course, after Tsunade gets on top of Katsuyu, how will Kakashi get close range?

He tried to stop it or something, cause the wound wasn't that big, not compared to what we've seen other Lightning blades do.

Sosuke
12-31-2010, 09:57 AM
Kakashi takes this, he is to versatile for her. She will push him pretty hard though.

tyrell4life194
12-31-2010, 10:12 AM
Amg, Lightning wolves sounds so much cooler >_> Message Kishi and tell him to change it...NAO

Anyway, yeaah, he could, easily.

Tsunade can summon Katsuyu before the Hounds reach her. They have to travel 30 metres remember :o
Even if Tsunade managed to summon Katsuyu, due to his quick reflexes and his superior Taijutsu skills, Kakashi should be able to evade all of Katsuyu's acid with relative ease. Kakashi would most likely use the Ninja Hounds to destract Katsuyu, long enough for Kakashi to use Lightning Hounds on Tsunade, whom won't be able to dodge.
Indeed

Haku stayed alive for a short while after being Raikiri'd in the heart. She could regen back from such an attack. Not to the face though. Of course, after Tsunade gets on top of Katsuyu, how will Kakashi get close range?
Kakashi will summon his Ninja Hounds to destract Katsuyu, long enough for Kakashi to get up close range, and use Lightning Hounds on Tsunade. Due to her slow reaction speed, it's unlikely that Tsunade has the necessary reaction speed to dodge the Lightning Hounds.

J-Sun Tasogare
12-31-2010, 10:17 AM
Kakashi will summon his Ninja Hounds to destract Katsuyu, long enough for Kakashi to get up close range, and use Lightning Hounds on Tsunade. Due to her slow reaction speed, it's unlikely that Tsunade has the necessary reaction speed to dodge the Lightning Hounds.

Climbing on Katsuyu is an awful idea, as it can just split and absorb and suffocate you, or hold you long enough for Tsunade to punch you in to hell.

tyrell4life194
12-31-2010, 10:19 AM
Read my post J-Sun. I never said anything about Kakashi climbing onto Katsuyu.

Noctis Arashi
12-31-2010, 10:19 AM
What has tsunade done besides heal herself and punch/throw people?

J-Sun Tasogare
12-31-2010, 10:21 AM
Read my post J-Sun. I never said anything about Kakashi climbing onto Katsuyu.

long enough for Kakashi to get up close range

Can't get into close range while she's on Katsuyu.

tyrell4life194
12-31-2010, 10:26 AM
Yeah. Close range. As in near Katsuyu. As in close enough for Kakashi's Lightning Hound to reach Tsunade, if it doesn't already. DUR.

J-Sun Tasogare
12-31-2010, 10:34 AM
Yeah. Close range. As in near Katsuyu. As in close enough for Kakashi's Lightning Hound to reach Tsunade, if it doesn't already. DUR.

You said Tsunade, not Katsuyu and Katsuyu is taller than what Lightning Hound has shown to travel especially since the angle he'd throw it at is a lot harder than right for Pain, like he showed there.

tyrell4life194
12-31-2010, 10:35 AM
You said Tsunade, not Katsuyu and Katsuyu is taller than what Lightning Hound has shown to travel especially since the angle he'd throw it at is a lot harder than right for Pain, like he showed there.
The backside of Katsuyu is shorter than the front side of Katsuyu. While Katsuyu is destracted by the Ninja Hounds, due to his superior speed, Kakashi will appear behind Kakashi, and uses Lightning Hound on Tsunade.

J-Sun Tasogare
12-31-2010, 10:37 AM
Then he goes behind Katsuyu, and uses Lightning Hound on Tsunade. Besides, it depends on Tsunade even summoning Katsuyu and jumping on her back, before Kakashi speedblitzes her.
She doesn't have to jump on her back, it starts out like that if she summons it under herself.

Have you seen how long Katsuyu is? Kakashi isn't casting any jutsu from that distance.

Nyruss
12-31-2010, 10:37 AM
Tsunade can summon Katsuyu before the Hounds reach her. They have to travel 30 metres remember :o

If the hounds are as fast as Kakashi is, and why would he use a jutsu that weren't as fast or faster than he was, then thirty meters is nothing and Tsunade would be killed long before she ever got around to even beginning to summon.

Of course, after Tsunade gets on top of Katsuyu, how will Kakashi get close range?

Not that Tsunade would survive long enough to do that, but Kakashi would reach her by running up Katsuyu's back. Katsuyu's inability to react to Kakashi(meaning Tsunade would be dead before Katsuyu got around to doing anything about it) in addition to the actually not relevant fact that Katsuyu has never shown to be able to absorb anyone into herself, means that Tsunade can never win this fight. Ever.

tyrell4life194
12-31-2010, 10:38 AM
She doesn't have to jump on her back, it starts out like that if she summons it under herself.

Have you seen how long Katsuyu is? Kakashi isn't casting any jutsu from that distance.
Kakashi is Transonic right?

J-Sun Tasogare
12-31-2010, 10:39 AM
Kakashi is Transonic right?

Most likely.

But he should focus on killing Katsuyu with Fire Style or Water Style along with Ninja hounds.

Nyruss
12-31-2010, 10:40 AM
Why waste the time and energy when he could grab a kunai and speedblitz Tsunade?

Kill3r_B-st
12-31-2010, 10:43 AM
tsunade acid slimes kakashi goes underground, tsunade breaks that mess wide open acid slime or she scrambles kakashis nerves when he gets close and lets him eat her fist.

tyrell4life194
12-31-2010, 10:45 AM
How about you 2 stop talking, and let me do the calcs? Geez.

Anyways, Transonic speed ranges from 240-410 m/s, or from 610-768 mph. Since Kakashi is most likely mid transonic, we'll assume that he travels at 320 m/s. If we divide 320 into 30, we get a value of approximately 0.09 seconds. That's how fast Kakashi will clear the distance to speedblitz Tsunade.

Nyruss
12-31-2010, 10:46 AM
tsunade acid slimes kakashi goes underground, tsunade breaks that mess wide open acid slime or she scrambles kakashis nerves when he gets close and lets him eat her fist.


Kakashi chops Tsunade's head off with a kunai before she can do any of this stuff.

tyrell4life194
12-31-2010, 10:47 AM
^Basically this.

Kill3r_B-st
12-31-2010, 12:06 PM
well if you have kakashi speed calcs can we have tsunades please to make the speed comparison and tell you why kakashi is blitzing no one?

tyrell4life194
12-31-2010, 12:38 PM
You do the calcs yourself, since you know so much about Tsunade. I'll tell ya what. I'll list the best speed feats Tsunade has EVER shown.

Tsunade dodge Kabuto's attack from below. However, there is no guarantee that the attack was ANYWHERE near Transonic. Therefore, Tsunade's reaction speed is NOWHERE near Transonic.

Tsunade kept up with Orochimaru, whom was severly injured and was holding back. There is no guarantee that Orochimaru is ANYWHERE near Transonic. Therefore, Tsunade's running speed is NOWHERE near Transonic.

I mean, come on. She got speedblitz by ASURA, and that's saying something.

Overall, stating that Tsunade has Trasonic reaction AND running speed IS, and ALWAYS WILL BE, BLATANT FANBOYISM, and is a DISGRACE to intelligent life EVERYWHERE.

So, there you have it Kill3r. I wouldn't argue on this subject if I were you.

Kuromaki
12-31-2010, 02:47 PM
Amg, Lightning wolves sounds so much cooler >_> Message Kishi and tell him to change it...NAO

Anyway, yeaah, he could, easily.

Tsunade can summon Katsuyu before the Hounds reach her. They have to travel 30 metres remember :o

Indeed

Haku stayed alive for a short while after being Raikiri'd in the heart. She could regen back from such an attack. Not to the face though. Of course, after Tsunade gets on top of Katsuyu, how will Kakashi get close range?
I know!

Traveling 30 meters would be easy for the wolves, one crossed a decent distance between Pain and Kakashi and Deva didn't do anything until the last moment, but in case she does summon Katsuyu, Kakashi can still sprint up her back and fight Tsunade there. Kakashi doesn't even have to fight with his real body, he can use a Raiton Clone just to be cautious.

Kakashi can use his ninja dogs to restrain Tsunade too, as they were able to catch and restrain Zabuza, whose strength and speed was on par with Kakashi's. Then again Tsunade can avoid them like with Kabuto's underground attack or punch them away, and she's certainly strong enough to do so.

The heart is a fatal spot to be Raikiri'd at. Tsunade might be able to survive for a few more moments but that doesn't mean she can heal from it, and if she tried, Kakashi would notice and Raikiri her again.

Kakashi can run fast or use shunshin, and besides I never saw Katsuyu absorb anyone she just covered them. Kakashi might be able to zap Katsuyu if she tries to suffocate him.
tsunade acid slimes kakashi goes underground, tsunade breaks that mess wide open acid slime or she scrambles kakashis nerves when he gets close and lets him eat her fist.
Kakashi doesn't have to stay in one place underground, and she's not fast enough to get his nerves. Sharingan prediction is enough to help him with dodging her punches.

tyrell4life194
12-31-2010, 02:53 PM
I know!

Traveling 30 meters would be easy for the wolves, one crossed a decent distance between Pain and Kakashi and Deva didn't do anything until the last moment, but in case she does summon Katsuyu, Kakashi can still sprint up her back and fight Tsunade there. Kakashi doesn't even have to fight with his real body, he can use a Raiton Clone just to be cautious.

Kakashi can use his ninja dogs to restrain Tsunade too, as they were able to catch and restrain Zabuza, whose strength and speed was on par with Kakashi's. Then again Tsunade can avoid them like with Kabuto's underground attack or punch them away, and she's certainly strong enough to do so. So, in other words, the Ninja Hounds have Sonic speed. Am I correct?

The heart is a fatal spot to be Raikiri'd at. Tsunade might be able to survive for a few more moments but that doesn't mean she can heal from it, and if she tried, Kakashi would notice and Raikiri her again.

Kakashi can run fast or use shunshin, and besides I never saw Katsuyu absorb anyone she just covered them. Kakashi might be able to zap Katsuyu if she tries to suffocate him.

Kakashi doesn't have to stay in one place underground, and she's not fast enough to get his nerves. Sharingan prediction is enough to help him with dodging her punches.
In red.

Frost ninja
12-31-2010, 03:07 PM
You do the calcs yourself, since you know so much about Tsunade. I'll tell ya what. I'll list the best speed feats Tsunade has EVER shown.

Basically you know the calcs for transonic, but does this mean you don't know how to calculate it from characters? Likewise, you said "most likely". Well I'm not satisfied. I want evidence of him being transonic, more than a hunch please. More than "I asked this person" as well, I'll have no hearsay as evidence.


Tsunade dodge Kabuto's attack from below. However, there is no guarantee that the attack was ANYWHERE near Transonic. Therefore, Tsunade's reaction speed is NOWHERE near Transonic.

You said theres no garentee. I would like to know exactly how fast it was if you don't mind. If you can provide calcs for your side, you should be able to provide calcs to even further denote tsunade's side.

Tsunade kept up with Orochimaru, whom was severly injured and was holding back. There is no guarantee that Orochimaru is ANYWHERE near Transonic. Therefore, Tsunade's running speed is NOWHERE near Transonic.

She doesn't need to run. Even if she does I want proof that Kakashi can indeed be transonic and she not react. Or that she can't do a one-panel summon in the same time as kakashi can do... anything.

I mean, come on. She got speedblitz by ASURA, and that's saying something.

Jirayia got ambushed by Asura. Moreso, she was already weakened into the state of just about hitting comatose at the time so this is not a good point to bring. You can do better.

Overall, stating that Tsunade has Trasonic reaction AND running speed IS, and ALWAYS WILL BE, BLATANT FANBOYISM, and is a DISGRACE to intelligent life EVERYWHERE.

Your caps lock is unnecessary. I want concrete proof that Kakashi is indeed certified and post-proof transonic otherwise your statements mean nothing in light of your lack of true evidence. The dogs are about sonic, and Tsunade has shown to have at a minimum that much. Above that, I want proof that the dogs will even be able to distact the multi-story slug. By logic, the slug could just run over the dogs. Another point on if he would even summon the dogs in bloodlust. Tsunade summoning the slug is bloodlust-logical being its a boss-summon with acid spit and all.

So, there you have it Kill3r. I wouldn't argue on this subject if I were you.

I'll await your concrete evidence. Until you can present it, I will not accept a speedblitz and will refuse to believe that Kakashi can indeed go beyond her reactions. If he goes close range and she can react, its chakra scalpel to the heart gg. If he cannot reach her then its slug, acid, gg. Even if he tried to run up the slug, it can seperate and reform at will almost. I'm not rooting for tsunade, but I won't stand by when theres no evidence backing claims.

in red

Kuromaki
12-31-2010, 03:09 PM
@tyrell I don't like using -sonic labels without calcs or powerscaling (like using Guy to determine most high tier speeds) so I don't know.

tyrell4life194
12-31-2010, 03:46 PM
Ok, sure Frost Ninja. Want me to prove to you that Kakashi's Transonic? Ok, I'll do so.

In Part 2, Kakashi kept up with Hidan, whom is Sonic. Moreso, Kakashi was injured, and also concentrated on dodging Kakuzu's Five Hearts. In other words, if we go by Powerscaling, Kakashi is Transonic. There you go Frost Ninja.

Smart one, we can't provide calcs for Kabuto's underground attack. We don't know how fast Kabuto's attack was. We don't know how far Kabuto's attack reached, nor do we know how long it took for Kabuto's attack to reach that distance. In order to figure out the speed of the attack, we need to know the distance, as well as the time it took for the attack to reach that distance. Since we don't know either of these factors, then the attack is unquantifiable. There is NO guarantee that the attack is ANYWHERE near Transonic. I'll tell ya what Frost Ninja. I want you to bring in proof that the attack is Transonic. I want you to calculate the distance, and the time of the attack. I also want you to calculate the time and the distance when Tsunade dodged the attack. If you can't prove either of these claims Frost Ninja, then drop it.

I know I can. She still got speedblitzed. Your point?

Already proven above try again sir. Kakashi kept up with Hidan, whom is confirmed Sonic. Kakashi was injured, and wasn't at full health. Moreso, he was also concentrating on dodging Kakuzu's Five Hearts. By Powerscaling, Kakashi is Transonic. It's simple logic dude, it ain't Rocket Science. The dogs were able to hold down Zabuza, whom couldn't react in time, whom has Sonic reaction speed, and whom has Sonic running speed. Try again sir. I want you to bring in proof that Katsuyu can land a hit on Kakashi. Moreso, I want you to bring in proof that Kakashi doesn't have the necessary reaction speed to dodge Katsuyu's acid. Also, I want you to bring in proof that Kakashi doesn't have Supersonic reaction speed. If you can't prove either of these claims Frost Ninja, then drop it.

Overall, I wouldn't argue on this subject if I were you.

Frost ninja
12-31-2010, 04:10 PM
Ok, sure Frost Ninja. Want me to prove to you that Kakashi's Transonic? Ok, I'll do so.

In Part 2, Kakashi kept up with Hidan, whom is Sonic. Moreso, Kakashi was injured, and also concentrated on dodging Kakuzu's Five Hearts. In other words, if we go by Powerscaling, Kakashi is Transonic. There you go Frost Ninja.

This proves he is sonic, and has good reaction. I see no proof of him being transonic, just having good reaction timing. I want proof of speed, not avoidance.

Smart one, we can't provide calcs for Kabuto's underground attack. We don't know how fast Kabuto's attack was. We don't know how far Kabuto's attack reached, nor do we know how long it took for Kabuto's attack to reach that distance. In order to figure out the speed of the attack, we need to know the distance, as well as the time it took for the attack to reach that distance. Since we don't know either of these factors, then the attack is unquantifiable. There is NO guarantee that the attack is ANYWHERE near Transonic. I'll tell ya what Frost Ninja. I want you to bring in proof that the attack is Transonic. I want you to calculate the distance, and the time of the attack. I also want you to calculate the time and the distance when Tsunade dodged the attack. If you can't prove either of these claims Frost Ninja, then drop it.

I don't need to. You made a weak analogy that simply because theres no proof of the attack being transonic, that tsunade by action is not transonic reaction timing. If she did successfuly dodge, then her reaction can't be quantified by these means. For all we know, she could have FTL reactions. However, point being is she showed feats reacting to a move that you cannot prove the speed of. Thus you cannot label her reaction speed.

I know I can. She still got speedblitzed. Your point?

If your argument for kakashi is that he was injured, then someone on the bridge of taking a 3 month nap will likely get speedblitzed off of weakness alone. To your point, kakashi couldn't react to Asura either when Asura blocked the lightning blade from hitting Deva. If what your saying IS the truth and that an almost comatose Tsunade got speedblitzed, then this doesn't bode well for an only half-chakra kakashi who couldn't manage to see Asura coming to block his attack.

Already proven above try again sir. Kakashi kept up with Hidan, whom is confirmed Sonic. Kakashi was injured, and wasn't at full health. Moreso, he was also concentrating on dodging Kakuzu's Five Hearts. By Powerscaling, Kakashi is Transonic. It's simple logic dude, it ain't Rocket Science. The dogs were able to hold down Zabuza, whom couldn't react in time, whom has Sonic reaction speed, and whom has Sonic running speed. Try again sir. I want you to bring in proof that Katsuyu can land a hit on Kakashi. Moreso, I want you to bring in proof that Kakashi doesn't have the necessary reaction speed to dodge Katsuyu's acid. Also, I want you to bring in proof that Kakashi doesn't have Supersonic reaction speed. If you can't prove either of these claims Frost Ninja, then drop it.

Powerscaling does not do you jutsice. By what degree of sonic is hidan? Above this, how much higher is kakashi and does he indeed transcend into Transonic. Also keeping up with Hidan who is sonic is, iirc, at most a possibly sonic+ feat. Your other point on kakuzu's hearts is invalid because thats more reaction.

Now for the dogs, I want proof that, in BL, he would summon the dogs. As for the hits, its a wide-range acid spit that covers quite a distance. I want proof he can tranverse the distance necessary to dodge this cone of effect. As for his reaction speed, read my last sentence. Even if he reacts I don't see his options for moving out of the way of an attack which has a cone of effect.

Lastly is his reaction speed. What proof do you want for this? I never argued against his reaction speed.

Overall, I wouldn't argue on this subject if I were you.

You have yet to provide me with concrete proof outside of a possibly Sonic+ feat and good reactions. By powerscaling, but I'm not 100% sure your grasping what it means.

He kept up with Hidan while partially injured = Sonic/Sonic+
He failed to react at Asura blocking Deva while at half-chakra
He is in Bloodlust

She got "speedblitzed" while on the verge of comatose. Even then she still saw Asura coming right before he struck.

She has a giant slug with AoE acid spit that is several stories tall and can seperate and reform at will

She has healing abilities that, when divided many thousands of times over, managed to heal just about the entire village.

You have no proof of her lack of reaction speed, no CONCRETE proof of kakashis speed outside of a possibly sonic+ event, all I've seen so far is weak analogies and straw man fallacies. Lets see some chapter pages and references. If we go by powerscaling then an almost comatose Tsunade who jutsu blew all of her chakra healing a village and protecting most of them from a CST that leveled the place who could still see Asura coming would be far ahead of Kakashi whom, even with the sharingan, didn't see Asura coming to block Deva.



in red. I see no concrete, just assumptions.

tyrell4life194
12-31-2010, 06:49 PM
Incorrect. When Hidan faced Asuma, Hidan was able to keep up with Asuma, while managed to escape from Shikamaru's Shadow Sewing Jutsu. Asuma was confirmed Sonic, ever since he blitzed a group of Jonin. Since Hidan managed to keep up with Asuma, we can conclude that Hidan is Sonic.

Both Kakuzu and Hidan tagged teamed Kakashi. Before then, Kakuzu managed to injure Kakashi. Kakuzu used his Five Hearts, and Hidan used his speed and his Scythe to keep Kakashi on the run. However, Hidan only kept up with Kakashi, because of this advantage. Due to Kakuzu's Five Hearts keeping Kakashi's attacks at bay, and keeping Kakashi himself on the run, Hidan found the perfect opportunity to try and injure Kakashi. Due to Powerscaling and Feats, we can conclude that Kakashi is Transonic.

My "weak" analogy is actually fact. I asked you to calculate Tsunade's speed and Kabuto's speed, because I know that both of their speed feats were unquantifiable. There is no guarantee that Tsunade has Transonic reaction speed. Not only did you refused to calculate their speed feats, you also refused to prove to me that Tsunade has Transonic speed. You don't understand the concept of Powerscaling, and would rather talk about my weak analogy, instead of seeing your fault in this debate. That's being hypocritical if you asked me.

Ok, we all know that when a character is bloodlusted, they would want to kill their opponent at all cost. However, if Tsunade managed to summon Katsuyu, Kakashi will think of a strategy to destract Katsuyu, long enough for Kakashi to land a deadly blow on Tsunade with his Lightning Hounds. While Kakashi is bloodlusted, he isn't stupid, and will likely use his brain to think of strategies, if he gets caught in sticky situations. He will most likely use the Ninja Hounds to destract Katsuyu, long enough for Kakshi to use his Lightning Hound, and land a deadly blow on Tsunade.

Already proven. Look above.

Already proven. Look above.

I know. Lets drop the subject, and focus on the main objective.


My straw man fallacies and weak analogies are actual proof, with the help of Powerscaling, knowledge, and logic. You refused to give me calcs of Tsunade's reaction speed. You refused to give me calcs of Kabuto's speed. You refused to prove to me that Tsunade has Transonic speed. The only thing you gave me was how energetic Tsunade was. Instead of proving any of these claims, you would rather critisize mine, instead of trying to prove your correctly. That's called being a hypocrite. Unless you get your head out of the gutter, then drop the whole subject all together, my good friend.

Lady Tsunade
01-01-2011, 09:16 AM
I know!

Traveling 30 meters would be easy for the wolves, one crossed a decent distance between Pain and Kakashi and Deva didn't do anything until the last moment, but in case she does summon Katsuyu, Kakashi can still sprint up her back and fight Tsunade there. Kakashi doesn't even have to fight with his real body, he can use a Raiton Clone just to be cautious.

Kakashi can use his ninja dogs to restrain Tsunade too, as they were able to catch and restrain Zabuza, whose strength and speed was on par with Kakashi's. Then again Tsunade can avoid them like with Kabuto's underground attack or punch them away, and she's certainly strong enough to do so.

The heart is a fatal spot to be Raikiri'd at. Tsunade might be able to survive for a few more moments but that doesn't mean she can heal from it, and if she tried, Kakashi would notice and Raikiri her again.

Kakashi can run fast or use shunshin, and besides I never saw Katsuyu absorb anyone she just covered them. Kakashi might be able to zap Katsuyu if she tries to suffocate him.

Kakashi doesn't have to stay in one place underground, and she's not fast enough to get his nerves. Sharingan prediction is enough to help him with dodging her punches.

;D

Summoning takes a a few moments, as we've seen in the Sannin Showdown. The distance they travelled wasn't 30 metres iirc. Surely she could summon before hand? Katsuyu could absorb his clones. And mini Katsuyu could spit acid at him while he's running.

Wut? Her strength was great enough to lift Gamabuntas sword easily. Those dogs aren't restraining her.

Thats assuming he got close range, regen could heal her back anyway. It healed a punctured lung and other critical strikes on top of that.

When she spits Sakura out, much of her body is covered in the same white stuff Katsuyu is covered in. Looks very much like she was absorbed. Also, the whole ground he's standing on is able to absorb, even if he does speed forwards, he can still be absorbed.

She can't land many if any hits hits at close range, her best bet is waring him out.

tyrell4life194
01-01-2011, 10:03 AM
While Summoning takes a few moments, it depends on how much chakra Tsunade wastes on the Summoning Technique. Also, it depends on how high the Jutsu's Rank is, as well as its, (how should I say this) umm, Power level, I guess.

While Tsunade has demonstrated immense physical strength, Tsunade will have trouble as to pry off the horde of Ninja Hounds. Remember, Tsunade only lifted one sword. She will have more trouble as to pry off the Ninja Hounds. Besides, I doubt Kakashi will try to use the Ninja Hounds on Tsunade. He will most likely use the Ninja Hounds to destract Tsunade, long enough for him to use his Lightning Hound on Tsunade.

Manga Chapter and Page Number. Please and thank you.

She can actually do that?

There is no guarantee that Tsunade can wear him out, before Kakashi manages to either pierce her with a Raikiri, or impale her with Lightning Hound.

Frost ninja
01-01-2011, 10:44 AM
Incorrect. When Hidan faced Asuma, Hidan was able to keep up with Asuma, while managed to escape from Shikamaru's Shadow Sewing Jutsu. Asuma was confirmed Sonic, ever since he blitzed a group of Jonin. Since Hidan managed to keep up with Asuma, we can conclude that Hidan is Sonic.

Both Kakuzu and Hidan tagged teamed Kakashi. Before then, Kakuzu managed to injure Kakashi. Kakuzu used his Five Hearts, and Hidan used his speed and his Scythe to keep Kakashi on the run. However, Hidan only kept up with Kakashi, because of this advantage. Due to Kakuzu's Five Hearts keeping Kakashi's attacks at bay, and keeping Kakashi himself on the run, Hidan found the perfect opportunity to try and injure Kakashi. Due to Powerscaling and Feats, we can conclude that Kakashi is Transonic.


Your pitching the same logic I just disproved. An injured kakashi keeping pace with sonic Hidan does not make him transonic, if nothing else that makes him possibly sonic+. His fight issues are of no matter aside from showing his reaction speed, but the certainly weren't going anywhere near it being faster than the eye.

Powerscaling does nothing for you here, you presented a sonic+ (possibly) feat and tell me its a transonic feat. I don't buy it, I want much more evidence than that. Powerscaling is a very sketchey argument to make, so lets see you bring in a bit more than one possibly sonic+ feat to argue with.


My "weak" analogy is actually fact. I asked you to calculate Tsunade's speed and Kabuto's speed, because I know that both of their speed feats were unquantifiable. There is no guarantee that Tsunade has Transonic reaction speed. Not only did you refused to calculate their speed feats, you also refused to prove to me that Tsunade has Transonic speed. You don't understand the concept of Powerscaling, and would rather talk about my weak analogy, instead of seeing your fault in this debate. That's being hypocritical if you asked me.

Not at all. You never said it was unquantifiable, I did. You said it wasn't anywhere near transonic, and tsunade reacting means shes not anywhere near transonic. This is a huge fallacy. If she reacted to an attack of any speed, we use said speed to tell what her reaction is. If you cannot back your claim that its not transonic then the point becomes clear: You can't label her reaction as being less than Transonic if you have no proof of Kabuto's jutsu speed. Unquantifiable, if this is true, her reaction time can't be used as a point for either side being that I could argue you have no proof to the contrary. As for hypocritical, you ask for evidence and you didn't give me concretes. Just shoody feats I've read and disproved a hundred times over.

Ok, we all know that when a character is bloodlusted, they would want to kill their opponent at all cost. However, if Tsunade managed to summon Katsuyu, Kakashi will think of a strategy to destract Katsuyu, long enough for Kakashi to land a deadly blow on Tsunade with his Lightning Hounds. While Kakashi is bloodlusted, he isn't stupid, and will likely use his brain to think of strategies, if he gets caught in sticky situations. He will most likely use the Ninja Hounds to destract Katsuyu, long enough for Kakshi to use his Lightning Hound, and land a deadly blow on Tsunade.

Distract*. Now lets say shes stories in the air, much further than lightning hound has been shown to reach, wheres this kill? As for strategies, this is bloodlust. Its a go-for-the-kill, he doesn't think of more strategies he thinks of the next way to kill. As for the hounds, how will a bunch of small dogs distract a multi-story bloodlusted slug, pray tell? Also even if he uses lightning hound, its hefty chakra and she can probably heal it off.

Already proven. Look above. x2

Not proven. More than one thing I've seen from you all too often. Or do you not have any more to quantify kakashi's speed and expect me to accept your one example as the proof?

I know. Lets drop the subject, and focus on the main objective.

Yes. Evidence. Where is yours?

My straw man fallacies and weak analogies are actual proof, with the help of Powerscaling, knowledge, and logic. You refused to give me calcs of Tsunade's reaction speed. You refused to give me calcs of Kabuto's speed. You refused to prove to me that Tsunade has Transonic speed. The only thing you gave me was how energetic Tsunade was. Instead of proving any of these claims, you would rather critisize mine, instead of trying to prove your correctly. That's called being a hypocrite. Unless you get your head out of the gutter, then drop the whole subject all together, my good friend.

I don't need to do either, as you said its unquantifiable so even if I wanted to its impossible. But you cannot provide evidence against my claim, now can you? I'm free to say her reactions are FTL and you can say they are sub-human, but being it can't be measured we cannot say what it is and is not.

As for transonic speed, when did I ever bring in that point on Tsunade's side*? Your straw-manning again.


Next is a hypocrite is someone who says one thing but does the opposite. "I won't shoot you" and then shooting someone is a hypocrite. I am asking you to support your claims with concrete evidence which you have yet to do to the satisfaction of the opposition. Theres so much room for debate out of your point I don't see why you made it. Theres no proof of degree of speed above Hidan, so Kakashi's speed is about as quantified as Tsunade's reaction.

Lets go by powerscaling. Tsunade reacted to Kabuto's speed. By powerscaling, if we are to assume this is a minimum of sonic, then her reactions are easily transonic/supersonic. After all, she WAS able to see Asura coming while on the verge of comatose, this already shows more reaction than a sharingan kakashi who failed to do the same.

Finally if you are going to sit there and try to talk big, please try to use the correct wordage. "Mind in the gutter" means that I am saying something of explicit intent on something that is not, which I have yet to do. Hypocrite is someone who says one thing and does another. I'm asking you for evidence to support your claims. Meanwhile, I haven't made any claims of my own and have been simply rebutting yours with counter-points that need no proof as they are as concrete as yours.

So long as you refuse these points, I am at liberty to refuse yours until you have evidence to counter or substantiate these claims going on right now. More than the one half-baked one you have presented.

in red

Frost ninja
01-01-2011, 10:59 AM
While Summoning takes a few moments, it depends on how much chakra Tsunade wastes on the Summoning Technique. Also, it depends on how high the Jutsu's Rank is, as well as its, (how should I say this) umm, Power level, I guess.

She summoned it and had enough chakra left over to save the village from CST and provide mass heals for people. I'm guessing its not too costly.

While Tsunade has demonstrated immense physical strength, Tsunade will have trouble as to pry off the horde of Ninja Hounds. Remember, Tsunade only lifted one sword. She will have more trouble as to pry off the Ninja Hounds. Besides, I doubt Kakashi will try to use the Ninja Hounds on Tsunade. He will most likely use the Ninja Hounds to destract Tsunade, long enough for him to use his Lightning Hound on Tsunade.

One sword = well over 2 tons

six dogs = a few grams a piece.


If we are assuming that she is going to be BL then its a summon off the bat for her. The dogs are useless in the wake of a multi-story BL acid slug.

Even if he can get close, Tsunade can ground-pound and probably kill them. Her attack was strong enough to tear apart sections of buildings as well (164 / 2)

Manga Chapter and Page Number. Please and thank you.

164 / 12 is where is happens

164 / 15 is where she heals it



She can actually do that?

yes

There is no guarantee that Tsunade can wear him out, before Kakashi manages to either pierce her with a Raikiri, or impale her with Lightning Hound.

Shes on a multi-story slug, hitting her is going to be harder than your letting on. Wearing him out should be childs play. Especially if he spams lightning hounds, and using a raiton clone iirc reduces him to half chakra or something.

in red

Nyruss
01-01-2011, 11:21 AM
Shes on a multi-story slug, hitting her is going to be harder than your letting on.


No, not really. There's this crazy thing where Kakashi is faster than Tsunade. Even in the event that he allows her to live long enough to summon Katsuyu it would be a cake walk to run up Katsuyu's back. In the unlikely event that Katsuyu is capable of absorbing people period, she's not fast to react to Kakashi's presence before Tsunade dies, by which time the fight will be over.


Next is a hypocrite is someone who says one thing but does the opposite. "I won't shoot you" and then shooting someone is a hypocrite


You really need a dictionary because that's not what a hypocrite is. At all.

A hypocrite is somone who claims to have a given belief, and who may or may not condemn others for a given action, but who does not hold that belief and who does the same action that they were condemning others for.

Reference: tyrell whining about how I can never let the past go and how I bring up old arguments when Tsunade is concerned, when he never makes a post concerning my hatred of Tsunade that doesn't bring up the Tsunade vs Mei thread.


If, as tyrell says, you are critisizing his posts for lacking evidence that your posts do not possess, then he is right, you are a hypocrite.

"Mind in the gutter" means that I am saying something of explicit intent on something that is not, which I have yet to do. It actually means "tending to think of or say things that are obscene". I believe the idiom tyrell was looking for was some variation on Head in your posterior.

Frost ninja
01-01-2011, 11:36 AM
No, not really. There's this crazy thing where Kakashi is faster than Tsunade. Even in the event that he allows her to live long enough to summon Katsuyu it would be a cake walk to run up Katsuyu's back. In the unlikely event that Katsuyu is capable of absorbing people period, she's not fast to react to Kakashi's presence before Tsunade dies, by which time the fight will be over.

The slug can split and intake kakashi. Above this, theres the issue of getting around to her back without either Tsu or the slug noticing.

Even if he does, the slug seems to split pretty fast. If either detects his presence its a simple matter of splitting and having one of them intake him. The slugs were strong enough to resist village-buster CST, so I think they should, by the same note, be able to contain kakashi.


You really need a dictionary because that's not what a hypocrite is. At all.

A hypocrite is somone who claims to have a given belief, and who may or may not condemn others for a given action, but who does not hold that belief and who does the same action that they were condemning others for.

lets say you say "I like chicken", and then when offered chicken at any given time you refuse for the reason that you've never liked chicken. Is this closer to this definition? I won't argue because I'm aware I may or may not have misused this term, but I am not a hypocrite for asking evidence of other people's claims... At least I feel like I'm not. ://

Reference: tyrell whining about how I can never let the past go and how I bring up old arguments when Tsunade is concerned, when he never makes a post concerning my hatred of Tsunade that doesn't bring up the Tsunade vs Mei thread.

If, as tyrell says, you are critisizing his posts for lacking evidence that your posts do not possess, then he is right, you are a hypocrite.


I'm not criticizing, I'm asking him for evidence and I have, as you can see in my most recent responce posts, post evidence where necessary. As for prosenting evidence of a speed that is, as me and him said, unquantifiable, then that may be beyond my powers. However I present evidence when necessary for my points that I am trying to make.

in red, its not wrong to ask evidence to counter your points.

Nyruss
01-01-2011, 11:41 AM
The slug can split and intake kakashi. Above this, theres the issue of getting around to her back without either Tsu or the slug noticing.


You might think I hadn't thought of that, but alas:

she's not fast to react to Kakashi's presence before Tsunade dies, by which time the fight will be over.

lets say you say "I like chicken", and then when offered chicken at any given time you refuse for the reason that you've never liked chicken. Is this closer to this definition? No. If you had claimed that "People shouldn't eat meat!" and then ate said chicken.

Frost ninja
01-01-2011, 12:08 PM
You might think I hadn't thought of that, but alas:

Isn't that hearsay? Anyways, I'm awaiting the confirmed speed of kakashi.
Above that I re-insert my point about Asura. Tsu saw him coming on the verge of taking the almighty danzo-saga nap, Kakashi iirc did not manage to see him when attacking Deva.



No. If you had claimed that "People shouldn't eat meat!" and then ate said chicken.

Chicken is poultry iirc. Is that a classification of "meat" because I think thats a seperate classification kinda like fish and the like.

in red, splitting hairs

Nyruss
01-01-2011, 12:28 PM
Isn't that hearsay? Anyways, I'm awaiting the confirmed speed of kakashi.
Above that I re-insert my point about Asura. Tsu saw him coming on the verge of taking the almighty danzo-saga nap, Kakashi iirc did not manage to see him when attacking Deva.


Kakashi's ultimate speed isn't particularly relevant, because whatever his speed, he's faster than Tsunade and Katsuyu. If you think this is not the case I welcome you to provide something to support it.


Tsunade seeing Asura(if indeed she did) is nothing special considering she was staring at him the entire time.


Meanwhile, Kakashi has all his attention focused on Deva, using a technique that limits his field on vision, so it's no suprise that Asura could get there without Kakashi noticing.


I suppose Team Tsunade might try to claim this means she can react to SM Naruto, but given her inability to react to Asura in the immediately preceding page, this would be a massive inconsistency.

Chicken is poultry iirc. Is that a classification of "meat" because I think thats a seperate classification kinda like fish and the like.

Probly depends on who you ask. Not the point either way.

Frost ninja
01-01-2011, 12:33 PM
Kakashi's ultimate speed isn't particularly relevant, because whatever his speed, he's faster than Tsunade and Katsuyu. If you think this is not the case I welcome you to provide something to support it.

Tsunade seeing Asura(if indeed she did) is nothing special considering she was staring at him the entire time.

Meanwhile, Kakashi has all his attention focused on Deva, using a technique that limits his field on vision, so it's no suprise that Asura could get there without Kakashi noticing.

True as this may be, the point of it is that none of the three noticed him coming. As for the limit and attention, one would think that he would've at least been able to notice Asura considering how badly damaged Asura was, one can imagine he wasn't moving at full speed or anywhere close.

Tsunade, at a point of almost comatose, noticed a full-health and full-speed Asura blitzspeeding it to her. IMO this shows at least the ability to track someone going as fast as Asura, whom I believe is pretty fast considering he blocked Kakashi's lightning blade while being as badly damaged as he was.

I'm not saying Tsu is faster, I'm saying she probably can see Kakashi coming. I hope you can understand the point I was trying to make, I don't word things well cometimes and it kinda defeats the ability of the point to make it across.

I'm not saying "omfg she has l337 reactions", I'm simply saying that she can see Kakashi coming. Thats all. I'm not on either side, but I think its better if people go through each thing to the fullest to make sure no point is overlooked.



Probly depends on who you ask. Not the point either way.

As I said, I was just splitting hairs

in red

Nyruss
01-01-2011, 12:37 PM
As for the limit and attention, one would think that he would've at least been able to notice Asura considering how badly damaged Asura was, one can imagine he wasn't moving at full speed or anywhere close.


It's possible he was brought into place by Deva's Bansho Tennin.

Tsunade, at a point of almost comatose, noticed a full-health and full-speed Asura blitzspeeding it to her.

Having found the alleged reaction I can readily tell you that even if Tsunade was aware of Asura's movement, she hadn't moved an inch by the time he was a split-second away from killing her and is therefore not able to react in time. In the next page we see Tsunade with her arm in front of her and her face turned away, a natural reaction(of the kneejerk variety), possibly in response to Asura's attack, possibly in response to Naruto smashing Asura to bits.

Furthermore, describing her as "Almost comatose" is an exaggeration.

I suppose Team Tsunade might try to claim this means she can react to SM Naruto, but given her inability to react to Asura in the immediately preceding page, this would be a massive inconsistency.

tyrell4life194
01-01-2011, 12:42 PM
You know, Frost Ninja makes a good point. Tsunade was in a brink of comatose, as he said. She was able to use her chakra, and gave it to Katsuyu, so Katsuyu can heal everyone in the village, whom wasn't dead.

Also, Tsunade was able to clearly see Asura, ready to speedblitz her. She may not have the fastest reaction speed, but she was fast enough to see Asura, whom was fast enough to easily dodge Kakashi's Raikiri.

Remember, this was Tsunade when she was at a brink of going into a coma.

Frost ninja
01-01-2011, 12:47 PM
It's possible he was brought into place by Deva's Bansho Tennin.

Not likely. If this would be true then he wouldn't be able to do his push to rid himself of kakashi one second lated due to the five second down time in between push and pulls.



Having found the alleged reaction I can readily tell you that even if Tsunade was aware of Asura's movement, she hadn't moved an inch by the time he was a split-second away from killing her and is therefore not able to react in time. In the next page we see Tsunade with her arm in front of her and her face turned away, a natural reaction(of the kneejerk variety), possibly in response to Asura's attack, possibly in response to Naruto smashing Asura to bits.

Furthermore, describing her as "Almost comatose" is an exaggeration.

She went into old mode and took a 3 month coma right after.
I don't think its an exaggeration.

I suppose Team Tsunade might try to claim this means she can react to SM Naruto, but given her inability to react to Asura in the immediately preceding page, this would be a massive inconsistency.

Not saying she can react to asura. Your missing what I'm saying.
All I'm claiming is she saw Asura while he was speedblitzing. Nowhere had I said she reacted, but simply put an Almost comatose (yes, I consider taking a 3 month nap afterwards and starting the danzo-saga a state of comatose... that and after she passed out and there was that time when the word "coma" was tossed around a lot...)

Its her visually intaking the sight of Asura mid-speedblitz that I'm pointing out. After all, I'm not arguing that she can react to kakashi at the moment, simply that kakashi cannot get behind the slug without either noticing.

in red

Nyruss
01-01-2011, 12:53 PM
Not likely. If this would be true then he wouldn't be able to do his push to rid himself of kakashi one second lated due to the five second down time in between push and pulls.

Are Bansho Tennin and Shinra Tensei not two difference techniques?

All I'm claiming is she saw Asura while he was speedblitzing. Her eyes took in light and transmitted information to her brain a picture of what was happening in front of her. This takes considerably less than a second, even for a normal human.

But unless she was able to process this information in that time, it can not honestly be claimed that she actually "saw" Asura.

tyrell4life194
01-01-2011, 12:59 PM
Incorrect Frost Ninja. You see, lets be logical here. Now, at best, by Powerscaling and feats, Hidan is Mid-Sonic. Now, Kakashi managed to keep up with Hidan, while not being at full health, and while dodging Kakuzu's attacks at the same time. Therefore, by Powerscaling, Kakashi is Low-Mid Transonic. We can only use Powerscaling to a certain extent, when we know for certain, how fast a person is. Either way, you have yet to disprove my claims.


That feat, my friend, is Transonic. Try again sir.

I never said anything about me saying the attack was unquantifiable. I was agreeing with you, so I don't know where you got that part from. Unless you can prove to me that Kabuto's attack was Transonic, unless you can prove to me that Tsunade's reaction speed is Transonic, unless you can quanify either of these claims, then drop the whole subject, and admit that both of our claims are incorrect. You refused to show any proof, and would rather critisize mine, than show proof. That makes you a hypocrite my good friend.

So basically, you're refusing to provide proof? Even though I disproved all of your claims wrong? Let me tell you something Frosty the Snowman; that's called being a hypocrite in my book. Not only did you refused to show me proof, you have yet to prove to me that Tsunade's reaction speed is Transonic, and that Kabuto's attack speed is also Transonic. You have yet to bring me calcs, and you have critisized all of my proof, claiming that, "Kakashi is sonic+, you fail." even though, you don't understand the concept of Powerscaling.

Ok, Frost Ninja, you just contradicted yourself. You just said that Tsunade's reaction speed when she reacted to Kabuto's attack was UNQUANTIFIABLE. Now you're saying, by Powerscaling, her reaction speed is Transonic/Supersonic? Yeah, I would like to see proof of this. I want you to provide me calcs. I want you to give me proof that Tsunade's reaction speed was Supersonic during Part 1. I want you to prove to me that Kabuto's attack speed was Supersonic during Part 1. Don't try to use Kakashi, because Kakashi was at least Sonic during Part 1. I want you to provide proof from the Manga, from the Internet, I want you to provide feats, calcs, and proof.

No, I said head out of the gutter. Learn to read my comments correctly Frost Ninja before you open your mouth, since you know so much about Grammar and English. I did so the entire argument. I asked you to provide proof for your claims, and you refused to do so. Hmm, sad.

Frost ninja
01-01-2011, 01:07 PM
Are Bansho Tennin and Shinra Tensei not two difference techniques?

Can you prove he's able to do the pull in the downtime between pushes?

Her eyes took in light and transmitted information to her brain a picture of what was happening in front of her. This takes considerably less than a second, even for a normal human.

But unless she was able to process this information in that time, it can not honestly be claimed that she actually "saw" Asura.

Seeing something is different from discerning detail. Even if you can't tell every last detail on him, the ability to see him is still not only plausible but it would be almost impossible for her not to.

The only way to move faster than she could "see" is to be faster than light being the light bounces off objects into the eye which then transmits into the brain.

She could see him, she also knew that something was coming and if she had the reaction speed it would've been possible to dodge it or counter. Above this, I believe she even knew it was asura coming.

Now then comes the issue. She's on a multi-story slug, looking down. I believe that she should be able to see kakashi coming, considering she was able to see blitzspeed Asura at full health in a state of almost comatose.

An atomic explosion shockwave, for example, moves at supersonic speeds but even basic humans can see said shockwave coming at them. Most cannot react or move out of the way, but point being is even the basic untrained eye can see something supersonic speed coming. From a distance of 50m is no exception. They may go fast, but it is easily trackable.

Kakashi is nowhere near supersonic, I have my doubts to him being transonic. However, if we basic humans can see something supersonic coming at us from 50m, and be able to track its movement, then its fully capable to see a grown man by the same score.

I'd say an exception may be a bullet, but its size and speeds belie its visibility. Probably supersonic+, being it will hit you before you hear the sonic boom.



in red?

Nyruss
01-01-2011, 01:14 PM
Can you prove he's able to do the pull in the downtime between pushes?

If they are two seperate techniques, why shouldn't he be able to?

Seeing something is different from discerning detail. Even if you can't tell every last detail on him, the ability to see him is still not only plausible but it would be almost impossible for her not to.


Again, unless she was able to process this information in that time, it can not honestly be claimed that she actually "saw" Asura, in the sense of being capable of, even if not fast enough, reacting to him. While her brain may have received actual visual information, she didn't actually process this information in time to do anything with it. This is no different than if she were an ordinary human, which means that this line of thought is pointless and has no bearing on her speed(or lack thereof).

She could see him True.


she also knew that something was coming

Support this claim.


and if she had the reaction speed it would've been possible to dodge it or counter.

Pretty big If.


She's on a multi-story slug, looking down. I believe that she should be able to see kakashi coming, considering she was able to see blitzspeed Asura at full health in a state of almost comatose.

Kakashi is already moving by the time she summons the giant slug, accompanied by lots and lots and lots of smoke. She won't be able to find him until his kunai in sticking out of her eye socket.

Kakashi is nowhere near supersonic, You can, of course, prove it.

Frost ninja
01-01-2011, 01:21 PM
Incorrect Frost Ninja. You see, lets be logical here. Now, at best, by Powerscaling and feats, Hidan is Mid-Sonic. Now, Kakashi managed to keep up with Hidan, while not being at full health, and while dodging Kakuzu's attacks at the same time. Therefore, by Powerscaling, Kakashi is Low-Mid Transonic. We can only use Powerscaling to a certain extent, when we know for certain, how fast a person is. Either way, you have yet to disprove my claims.

I'm waiting on more evidence. If Hidan is mid-sonic, then I want proof kakashi indeed did bridge the half remaining section of sonic to go into transonic. "Keeping up" isn't good enough.

That feat, my friend, is Transonic. Try again sir.

Keeping up with mid-sonic would put someone at mid-sonic for keeping up.
As for dodging kakuzu's attacks, thats reaction time. If your going to bring them in, show me feats of them being transonic that proves kakashi's running speed instead of reaction speed.

I never said anything about me saying the attack was unquantifiable. I was agreeing with you, so I don't know where you got that part from. Unless you can prove to me that Kabuto's attack was Transonic, unless you can prove to me that Tsunade's reaction speed is Transonic, unless you can quanify either of these claims, then drop the whole subject, and admit that both of our claims are incorrect. You refused to show any proof, and would rather critisize mine, than show proof. That makes you a hypocrite my good friend.

I never made a point as to what her speed was based on that, I was informing you of your faulty logic that a reaction to an attack makes someone not a certain speed. By you agreeing its unquantifiable, you basically give me reason to believe you cannot prove to me the speed of either as well.

So basically, you're refusing to provide proof? Even though I disproved all of your claims wrong? Let me tell you something Frosty the Snowman; that's called being a hypocrite in my book. Not only did you refused to show me proof, you have yet to prove to me that Tsunade's reaction speed is Transonic, and that Kabuto's attack speed is also Transonic. You have yet to bring me calcs, and you have critisized all of my proof, claiming that, "Kakashi is sonic+, you fail." even though, you don't understand the concept of Powerscaling.

Disproved what? I walked in and told you to give more proof than what you did. when did I say "you fail" anywhere? Above that, I dropped reaction a while ago. Your slow to respond to me, so I'll just give this the wordage it deserves.

I am not on either side, and if we agree its unquantifiable then why do you continue to refer to me bringing in calcs? If your going to act high and mighty, I want calcs from you. Of course you cannot provide because, as we both said, that feat can't be quantified.

Ok, Frost Ninja, you just contradicted yourself. You just said that Tsunade's reaction speed when she reacted to Kabuto's attack was UNQUANTIFIABLE. Now you're saying, by Powerscaling, her reaction speed is Transonic/Supersonic? Yeah, I would like to see proof of this. I want you to provide me calcs. I want you to give me proof that Tsunade's reaction speed was Supersonic during Part 1. I want you to prove to me that Kabuto's attack speed was Supersonic during Part 1. Don't try to use Kakashi, because Kakashi was at least Sonic during Part 1. I want you to provide proof from the Manga, from the Internet, I want you to provide feats, calcs, and proof.

I was actually meaning to do so, so alright.

164 / 8
164 / 9
164 / 10

How fast would you say appearing as a blur is? How about moving from behind a rock before it has a chance to fall more than possibly 8 inches through the air? Lets bring in Tsunade's ability to not only track this movement but somewhat counter it despite getting double-scalpeled?

I'd say this is at least sonic, maybe sonic+. By this fact, her ability to keep up with said speed in part 1, by powerscaling she should be as fast as, if not faster, than kakashi who managed to do so in part 2. Am I right by chance?

No, I said head out of the gutter. Learn to read my comments correctly Frost Ninja before you open your mouth, since you know so much about Grammar and English. I did so the entire argument. I asked you to provide proof for your claims, and you refused to do so. Hmm, sad.

Read above.

in red

Frost ninja
01-01-2011, 01:40 PM
If they are two seperate techniques, why shouldn't he be able to?


Because all of his techniques, from the CST to the CT all have down times applied to them. If you cannot prove that he can indeed manage both techniques in this time then its safe to assume the same rule applies to the technique of push and pull.



Again, unless she was able to process this information in that time, it can not honestly be claimed that she actually "saw" Asura, in the sense of being capable of, even if not fast enough, reacting to him. While her brain may have received actual visual information, she didn't actually process this information in time to do anything with it. This is no different than if she were an ordinary human, which means that this line of thought is pointless and has no bearing on her speed(or lack thereof).


I'm not discussing her speed, I'm discussing her ability to see kakashi

True.

okay


Support this claim.


As you said, she triggered a natural reaction which means the mind processed that SOMETHING was coming. As for it being asura...

430 / 15

Expression changes aren't for nothing. Even fodder anbu in the background managed to somewhat react. Obviously rocket-boots full-health Asura isn't so fast that Tsunade and even fodder cannot track him trying to blitzspeed.

Are you perhaps going to argue that damaged choji-palmed Asura is somehow faster? If so you'll want to provide evidence to the first issue at the top.

Pretty big If.

Its natural rules of reaction. If you can see and have the reflexes and speed to react, then one is probable to be able to "react" to said attack.


Kakashi is already moving by the time she summons the giant slug, accompanied by lots and lots and lots of smoke. She won't be able to find him until his kunai in sticking out of her eye socket.

How does he know its a slug, that shes on top of it, that he indeed can climb on top of it... With said smoke? Sharingan possibly allows him to see through it, but then theres the issue to there being a human figure and a large build of chakra in a blobbish shape.

Proof he can see through smoke and forumlate on the run without knowing anything about the jutsu or what it holds?

anyways to that point

169 / 18

Looks thin enough to see through, especially form her elevated position.

You can, of course, prove it.


I don't need to prove he is not, thats not my point. If you'd care to prove he is, that is fine. Otherwise I'll just close this point for now.

in red

tyrell4life194
01-01-2011, 01:54 PM
Here we go again. Ready to lose?
Asuma blitzed a group of Jonin. Therefore, he is confirmed Sonic. Hidan kept up with Asuma, despite being injured. Therefore, he is confirmed Mid-Sonic (or, just plain Sonic.) Kakashi had to dodge both Kakuzu's incoming attacks, while avoiding, (or if you want to put it, keeping up with) Hidan. Therefore, by Powerscaling, Speed Comparison, and Feats, Kakashi is Transonic. Or, for the sake of the argument (cause I know you'll make a big deal out of it) Low Transonic.

Completely incorrect. Not if the character managed to waste their chakra, as well as getting injured. I'll show you the chapters and page numbers of Kakashi getting injured, during the fight with Hidan and Kakuzu.
Chapter 334 Page 4-5. Kakuzu managed to kick Kakashi into a tree, injuring him.
Chapter 334 Page 11. Hidan keeping up with Kakashi, while Kakashi managed to dodge Kakuzu's incoming attacks.
Chapter 334 Page 15. Kakashi using Raikiri.
In the next chapter, the chapter shows Hidan keeping up with Kakashi, matching each other with speed. But, due to wasting his chakra, and becoming injured, Kakashi is actually Transonic (or for the sake of the argument, Low Transonic.) Either way, Kakashi's in the Transonic category.

That's why I stated that both of our claims are incorrect. So, drop it.

It's called an example. Well, sorry if I take too long to respong to you. I had to go to Cosmic: Skate and Play. It sucked ass.

I only stated so, because you refused to bring me proof.

In Chapter 164, it shows that Tsunade managed to dodge Kabuto's attack from underground. Tsunade tried hitting him with her fists, when Kabuto himself, appeared as a blow, and dodged the attack. Now, prove to me that Kabuto was moving at Transonic speed, when he became a blur.

Now, the next 2 pages does show Kabuto appearing behind Tsunade, before the rock managed to hit the ground. However, Tsunade was able to track his movements, and made a counter for his attack, despite getting scalpled by Kabuto, just as you said.

Now, this means that Tsunade has Sonic-Sonic+ reaction speed, though I'm not so sure if she has Sonic-Sonic+ running speed. I don't know what to say dude, I'm not the best reader when it comes to Manga. Either way, thanks for bringin in the proof. However, Kakashi is still faster.

Already did bro. Thanks for the proof.

tyrell4life194
01-01-2011, 01:56 PM
Also, here's more evidence for my claims. Chapter 335 Page 3. Kakashi matching Hidan's speed, WHILE INJURED.

Frost ninja
01-01-2011, 02:08 PM
Here we go again. Ready to lose?
Asuma blitzed a group of Jonin. Therefore, he is confirmed Sonic. Hidan kept up with Asuma, despite being injured. Therefore, he is confirmed Mid-Sonic (or, just plain Sonic.) Kakashi had to dodge both Kakuzu's incoming attacks, while avoiding, (or if you want to put it, keeping up with) Hidan. Therefore, by Powerscaling, Speed Comparison, and Feats, Kakashi is Transonic. Or, for the sake of the argument (cause I know you'll make a big deal out of it) Low Transonic.

Chapter of Asuma's blitz please?

Also I didn't see much of a "keeping up", it looked more like asuma threw some stuff and got poked in the face. After that it was all downhill.

He avoided shika's shadows and thats all I can honestly say I'll agree he did avoid. Aside from that it was all Scythe tricks and kakuzu joinging in a bit. Also "despite being injured" isn't a valid argument in Hidan's case imo.

He got his head cut off, reattached, and this seemed to have NO bearing on his performance from then on.

Next is I'm still waiting on you proving this is running speed and not reaction speed. For the hell of it, lets say he is on the border. avoid saying -sonic and lets see if speed is of an issue in a bit.

Completely incorrect. Not if the character managed to waste their chakra, as well as getting injured. I'll show you the chapters and page numbers of Kakashi getting injured, during the fight with Hidan and Kakuzu.
Chapter 334 Page 4-5. Kakuzu managed to kick Kakashi into a tree, injuring him.
Chapter 334 Page 11. Hidan keeping up with Kakashi, while Kakashi managed to dodge Kakuzu's incoming attacks.
Chapter 334 Page 15. Kakashi using Raikiri.
In the next chapter, the chapter shows Hidan keeping up with Kakashi, matching each other with speed. But, due to wasting his chakra, and becoming injured, Kakashi is actually Transonic (or for the sake of the argument, Low Transonic.) Either way, Kakashi's in the Transonic category.

Read above

That's why I stated that both of our claims are incorrect. So, drop it.

Fair enough

It's called an example. Well, sorry if I take too long to respong to you. I had to go to Cosmic: Skate and Play. It sucked ass.

Sorry to hear that. Anyways...

I only stated so, because you refused to bring me proof.

In Chapter 164, it shows that Tsunade managed to dodge Kabuto's attack from underground. Tsunade tried hitting him with her fists, when Kabuto himself, appeared as a blow, and dodged the attack. Now, prove to me that Kabuto was moving at Transonic speed, when he became a blur.

I was asking for verification of what exactly qualifies as transonic, but ok.

How about her reaction to Orochimaru trying to stab naruto? He was falling from a multi-story snake with an extra boost from ramming Jirayia into the ground while she was distacted with naruto, and she still managed to stop his sword hit... 3 times.

Now, the next 2 pages does show Kabuto appearing behind Tsunade, before the rock managed to hit the ground. However, Tsunade was able to track his movements, and made a counter for his attack, despite getting scalpled by Kabuto, just as you said.

Now, this means that Tsunade has Sonic-Sonic+ reaction speed, though I'm not so sure if she has Sonic-Sonic+ running speed. I don't know what to say dude, I'm not the best reader when it comes to Manga. Either way, thanks for bringin in the proof. However, Kakashi is still faster.

If Tsu is sonic+ reaction, then by scaling shouldn't her reaction be a minimum of transonic by part 2 current? If kakashi's hidan feat of keeping a pace with a sonic opponent while injured is transonic, then does this mean Tsu, by the same note, should have transonic reaction?

Also she doesn't need to run. I don't recall saying she did...

Already did bro. Thanks for the proof.

I'm not a bro... for like the 8th time... but yeah yeah.

in red

Nyruss
01-01-2011, 02:28 PM
Because all of his techniques, from the CST to the CT all have down times applied to them. If you cannot prove that he can indeed manage both techniques in this time then its safe to assume the same rule applies to the technique of push and pull.


Chibaku Tensei has no stated down time. Precedent set. Prove Bansho Tenin can't be used concurrently with Shinra Tensei.


I'm not discussing her speed, I'm discussing her ability to see kakashi

An ability she doesn't have for reasons specified previously.


As you said, she triggered a natural reaction which means the mind processed that SOMETHING was coming. As for it being asura...

But that's not a real reaction. She didn't sit there and think, "There's this guy flying at me. What course of action should I take. I know! I'll move out of the way!"

If she had been able to make a decision as to what course of action to take, it would have been something other than throwing her arm in front of her, closing her eyes and turning her head away. It's an automatic reaction, not something she was capable of conciously recognizing as a possibility.

How does he know its a slug, that shes on top of it, that he indeed can climb on top of it...

Unlike Tsunade, Kakashi is capable of reacting at superhuman speeds. Much faster than he is capable of moving, in fact(he reacted to Pain Shinra Tenseiing a nail at him at point blank range and Sasuke's supersonic arrows). It won't take long for him to make the decision that, "Hey, maybe I should attack."

With said smoke? Sharingan possibly allows him to see through it, but then theres the issue to there being a human figure and a large build of chakra in a blobbish shape.


The smoke is more to the effect of blocking Tsunade's vision than Kakashi's. He's an expert ANBU. He doesn't need to rely entirely on his eyesight to be effective.

Proof he can see through smoke and forumlate on the run without knowing anything about the jutsu or what it holds?

Additionally, Sasuke proved that Sharingan has x-ray vision in his fight with Deidara.

As for not knowing about the jutsu:

http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58876


The contestants have all previous knowledge of the other contestants that they are known to have in their respective universes.


So Kakashi knows all about Katsuyu and how useless she is in preventing Kakashi from killing the living crap out of Sucknade. Don't like the rule, take it up with deidara330, he's the one that put it in there.



169 / 18

Looks thin enough to see through, especially form her elevated position.


Inconsistent and/or after a time lapse. The smoke generated by a boss summon is typically accompanied by enough smoke to completely engulf said summon, even if for only a second, and a second is far far FAR more than enough time for Kakashi to react.


I don't need to prove he is not, thats not my point. If you'd care to prove he is, that is fine. Otherwise I'll just close this point for now.


I never said he was so I don't have to prove diddly. Or if I did say he was, I abandoned that point as irrelevant.

tyrell4life194
01-01-2011, 02:32 PM
I hate providing proof. I'm too laze for this. And due to my horrible memory, I don't know the chapter and page number, but I do know it was around the Konoha Invasion in Part 1, when Sasuke faced Gaara.

No, they matched at speed. After that, Asuma got his ass kicked.

He also matched Asuma's speed, or do you want me to refresh your memory with some chapter and page numbers sir?

Yeah. Immortality.

Besides being the most stubborn person I've ever met, you also make a good argument. Fine, we'll say it's between Transonic and Sonic.

Ok.


She reacted to Orochimaru, whom was SEVERLY INJURED AND WAS HOLDING BACK.

Well, yeah. She managed to track Asuma's running speed. Remember, she was at a brink of a comatose.

Oh, so she needs to dodge? Dodging won't help her. She still need to land a hit on Kakashi, and due to Kakashi having great Taijutsu skill, and superior reaction speed, he should be able to dodge all of Tsunade's chakra enhanced punches easily.

Well, sorry if I didn't knew you were a girl. No need to get mad.

Frost ninja
01-01-2011, 03:12 PM
Chibaku Tensei has no stated down time. Precedent set. Prove Bansho Tenin can't be used concurrently with Shinra Tensei.


433 / 16

Why would he be lacking power if CST didn't have one?
Also tell me this... if he intended to repel naruto's attack here...

435/12

Then why not just use push? Mind you I'll wager the five seconds passed between that point and him using yet another pull here.

435/13

Makes more sense for him just to push naruto away if he was able to. Why throw the frog?




An ability she doesn't have for reasons specified previously.

You yourself agreed to my comment of her being able to see him.
As for her "reaction" or lack thereof, there is her throwing her arms up. Defensive, instinctive, or reflex. This shows a reaction meaning her mind processed something was coming at her.

Proof Kakashi can move as fast as rocket-boots asura?
If he can't then its well within her abilities to see him.


But that's not a real reaction. She didn't sit there and think, "There's this guy flying at me. What course of action should I take. I know! I'll move out of the way!"

Of course not, she threw up her arms as naruto landed on asura. Also I don't know exactly what she was thinking, but on the verge of the danzo-nap (I'll just call her coma that for now on) she is hardily at her prime reactions.

The fact that she still did anything but fall over is a credit to her reaction skills.

If she had been able to make a decision as to what course of action to take, it would have been something other than throwing her arm in front of her, closing her eyes and turning her head away. It's an automatic reaction, not something she was capable of conciously recognizing as a possibility.

In her state, it seemed like a "best I can do" type of thing. Many people cover places to try to defend them. If I swing at your legs with a baseball bat and your about to pass out for whatever reason, you blocking your legs would be the most your mind would decide your capable of doing.

Effective or not, it was a reaction. As for a possibility, something clicked that said "Do this" and she did, meaning that something in her felt it was a possibility.

Unlike Tsunade, Kakashi is capable of reacting at superhuman speeds. Much faster than he is capable of moving, in fact(he reacted to Pain Shinra Tenseiing a nail at him at point blank range and Sasuke's supersonic arrows). It won't take long for him to make the decision that, "Hey, maybe I should attack."

That was Kamui, which is restricted. As for the nail, he had plenty of prep to ready kamui and trigger it. Also I hadn't seen susanoo fire it with his back turned, do you have a chapter?

Sounds more like "using" than "reacting". "Reacting" is me turning and shooting my gun, "using", in this case", is me waiting at the door with my gun. Obviously one is much faster than the other.

The smoke is more to the effect of blocking Tsunade's vision than Kakashi's. He's an expert ANBU. He doesn't need to rely entirely on his eyesight to be effective.

Rank isn't viable. As for his eyesight, the fact that he had to summon dogs to catch Zabuza says that outside of summons his sightless feats don't count for much.

Additionally, Sasuke proved that Sharingan has x-ray vision in his fight with Deidara.

True but theres the issue of knowing exactly what it is.

As for not knowing about the jutsu:

http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58876

Proof he knew about the slug. Iirc he was dead before she summoned it in konoha, and he wasn't around for the other summon.

So Kakashi knows all about Katsuyu and how useless she is in preventing Kakashi from killing the living crap out of Sucknade. Don't like the rule, take it up with deidara330, he's the one that put it in there.


point above


Inconsistent and/or after a time lapse. The smoke generated by a boss summon is typically accompanied by enough smoke to completely engulf said summon, even if for only a second, and a second is far far FAR more than enough time for Kakashi to react.

React to what, exactly? Point above for my argument about knowing about the slug. Tsunade also knows about kakashi's sharingan ability so if she wanted she could make the slug seperate and simply pile them into a new shape of a summon. His eyes decieve him.

I never said he was so I don't have to prove diddly. Or if I did say he was, I abandoned that point as irrelevant.

Then don't prove it if you don't want.

in red

ItachixKisame
01-01-2011, 03:15 PM
I hate providing proof. I'm too laze for this. And due to my horrible memory, I don't know the chapter and page number, but I do know it was around the Konoha Invasion in Part 1, when Sasuke faced Gaara.

No, they matched at speed. After that, Asuma got his ass kicked.

He also matched Asuma's speed, or do you want me to refresh your memory with some chapter and page numbers sir?

Yeah. Immortality.

Besides being the most stubborn person I've ever met, you also make a good argument. Fine, we'll say it's between Transonic and Sonic.

Ok.


She reacted to Orochimaru, whom was SEVERLY INJURED AND WAS HOLDING BACK.

Well, yeah. She managed to track Asuma's running speed. Remember, she was at a brink of a comatose.

Oh, so she needs to dodge? Dodging won't help her. She still need to land a hit on Kakashi, and due to Kakashi having great Taijutsu skill, and superior reaction speed, he should be able to dodge all of Tsunade's chakra enhanced punches easily.

Well, sorry if I didn't knew you were a girl. No need to get mad.

Sorry too lazy to check it out myself but how was he holding back?

Frost ninja
01-01-2011, 03:16 PM
I hate providing proof. I'm too laze for this. And due to my horrible memory, I don't know the chapter and page number, but I do know it was around the Konoha Invasion in Part 1, when Sasuke faced Gaara.

Fodder Jonin who got caught be part 1 shika shadows can hardily be used to qualify something. Rank is irrelevant.

No, they matched at speed. After that, Asuma got his ass kicked.

He also matched Asuma's speed, or do you want me to refresh your memory with some chapter and page numbers sir?

Yes and I'm not a sir.

Yeah. Immortality.

Besides being the most stubborn person I've ever met, you also make a good argument. Fine, we'll say it's between Transonic and Sonic.

Ok.


She reacted to Orochimaru, whom was SEVERLY INJURED AND WAS HOLDING BACK.

Neither of which affects his speed in this case. He wasn't holding back when he decided to pull a McStab on Naruto, otherwise why would he do it?

Well, yeah. She managed to track Asura's running speed. Remember, she was at a brink of a comatose.

fixed

Oh, so she needs to dodge? Dodging won't help her. She still need to land a hit on Kakashi, and due to Kakashi having great Taijutsu skill, and superior reaction speed, he should be able to dodge all of Tsunade's chakra enhanced punches easily.

Think about it. Shes on a slug, if she manages to track Kakashi then he will never reach her due to the slug's seperation. If he gets caught in a slug then she can be sub-human but she'll get him.

They survived village-wide CST, I'm sure they can keep him held until Tsu gets there or the reform and digest Kakashi.

Well, sorry if I didn't knew you were a girl. No need to get mad.

in red

Kakashi Hatake_Yamato
01-01-2011, 03:28 PM
kakashi wins...he basically takes this fight with his jutsus.....and skills

Frost ninja
01-01-2011, 03:29 PM
kakashi wins...he basically takes this fight with his jutsus.....and skills

You need more proof than that. Just to warn, of course.
Answers like these are often frowned upon by some members of moderation.

tyrell4life194
01-01-2011, 03:39 PM
Anyways, sorry I took too long to respond Frost Ninja. My stupid sister exit off the Internet.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

*Shrugs* Ok, fine.

Orochimaru was using his full strength and speed against KN4, because he considers KN4 a strong opponent. You would too, if you just gotten speedblitzed by KN3. Besides, what makes you think that Orochimaru was using his full speed and strength? He blatantly admitted that he was holding back. Besides, he didn't want to kill Tsunade. This is Tsunade, or also known as, "The Legendary Sucker." Tsunade is addicted to drinking and gambling. This affected her in battle. And not in a good way.

Thanks.

Well, lets think for a minute. As we all know, even when bloodlusted, Kakashi will need a destraction, so he can make his way to his opponent to kill him/her. The destraction will most likely be the Ninja Hounds. The Ninja Hounds will most likely restrain Katsuyu, (which likely won't happen, seeing as how Katsuyu is covered in slippery secretions) enabling Kakashi to use Lightning Hounds on Tsunade. But, as you've proven to me before, Tsunade has Sonic reaction speed, and will most likely dodge the attack. At least you're not the only person besides me and Lady Tsunade who doesn't think Tsunade is a fodder in the Narutoverse.

Frost ninja
01-01-2011, 03:46 PM
Anyways, sorry I took too long to respond Frost Ninja. My stupid sister exit off the Internet.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

*Shrugs* Ok, fine.

Orochimaru was using his full strength and speed against KN4, because he considers KN4 a strong opponent. You would too, if you just gotten speedblitzed by KN3. Besides, what makes you think that Orochimaru was using his full speed and strength? He blatantly admitted that he was holding back. Besides, he didn't want to kill Tsunade. This is Tsunade, or also known as, "The Legendary Sucker." Tsunade is addicted to drinking and gambling. This affected her in battle. And not in a good way.

He attacked naruto and Tsu got in the way. Proof he was holding back from killing naruto.

Thanks.

Well, lets think for a minute. As we all know, even when bloodlusted, Kakashi will need a destraction, so he can make his way to his opponent to kill him/her. The destraction will most likely be the Ninja Hounds. The Ninja Hounds will most likely restrain Katsuyu, (which likely won't happen, seeing as how Katsuyu is covered in slippery secretions)

Or it being, ya know... A multi-story boss summon who could crush them via ... er... walking?

enabling Kakashi to use Lightning Hounds on Tsunade.

Proof of it covering that distance through the air please and ty.

But, as you've proven to me before, Tsunade has Sonic reaction speed, and will most likely dodge the attack.

At least transonic by powerscaling, if what your saying is true.

At least you're not the only person besides me and Lady Tsunade who doesn't think Tsunade is a fodder in the Narutoverse.

No I think she is. I don't like people doing the bandwagon however so I'm just here to make sure every point is heard.

in red

tyrell4life194
01-01-2011, 03:54 PM
I never said anything about him holding back when he attacked Naruto.

Katsuyu can't walk first of all.

Well, the backside of Katsuyu, is bound to be shorter than the frontside of Katsuyu. Though, the Lightning Hound that attacked Deva was most likely 15-20 meters away, I'm not entirely sure that the Lightning Hound can even reach that high. Moreso, I don't know if Kakashi can cast the Technique, while jumping into the air.

Powerscaling is used, when a character faces another character, whom is weaker than they are, whom also has feats. I'm not entirely certain who was weaker in that fight. However, we can be for certain that Tsunade wasn't at her full strength, due to her alcoholic and gambling addictions. So, Tsunade, most likely has Transonic reaction speed, due to Powerscaling.

Nyruss
01-01-2011, 06:13 PM
You yourself agreed to my comment of her being able to see him.

You're claiming that she registered his presence and reacted to it, while I'm claiming exactly the opposite.

Maybe she saw him but was she able to register this fact before he killed her? Maybe she didn't register this until after Naruto showed up. Which makes her even slower.

Was she able to make any sort of tactical decision and track his movements in any way? Can you prove it? At all?

If you can't don't bother responding.

Proof Kakashi can move as fast as rocket-boots asura? If he can't then its well within her abilities to see him.

Proof he can't. Either way, even in the incredibly unlikely event that she is capable of finding him(since he will be well out of her line of sight by the time the smoke clears from the summoning, if not already behind her having jammed a kunai into her brain)

She still wouldn't be able to register the fact that she sees him and certainly not do anything about the fact that he's there until well after she's arleady dead.

If you can prove otherwise, I welcome it. If you can't, don't bother responding.

That was Kamui, which is restricted.

Kamui doesn't affect his speed. It's just an offensive technique.

Kakashi reacted to a supersonic attack. He used a technique to stop the supersonic attack he reacted to. Did Kamui allow him to react to it? No.

No matter how much you try and downplay it, it still happened.

True but theres the issue of knowing exactly what it is.

There's also the issue of not needing to, even if that were true, which it isn't.

Proof he knew about the slug. Proof he didn't. Tsunade is the Hokage, she's a famous ninja. She's called the slug princess. She uses Katsuyu in every fight she gets involved in. She summoned Katsuyu during Konoha's invasion. If generic garbage like Tenten knows about Katsuyu, why wouldn't Konoha's most powerful ninja?

Not like it matters since he doesn't need to know the first thing about Katsuyu to kill Tsunade without trying.

React to what, exactly?

React to the giant cloud of smoke. React to the summoning technique. React to Tsunade moving period. Take your pick.

Kakashi knows what a summoning is. And even if he didn't know about Katsuyu(which he does), he's not stupid enough to stand there like an idiot.

When you see someone use summoning technique, which is followed by a giant cloud of smoke, do you start moving or do you stand there and wait to find out what's in that cloud of smoke?

so if she wanted she could make the slug seperate and simply pile them into a new shape of a summon. His eyes decieve him.

And she's going to do this in the second or two it takes for the smoke to clear is she? And she's going to do this despite the fact that Kakashi just jammed a kunai in her brain?

I commend you for being alot less blatant in your attempts to exaggerate Tsunade's abilities and downplay Kakashi's, as opposed to Lady Tsunade who is convinced that the Godaime Hokage could kill Superboy-Prime with one hit and anyone who faces off against her is weaker than a newborn baby, but the fact is, you're still attempting to exaggerate Tsunade's abilities and downplay Kakashi's and if that's all you're going to do, bugger off.

Frost ninja
01-01-2011, 06:41 PM
You're claiming that she registered his presence and reacted to it, while I'm claiming exactly the opposite.

Maybe she saw him but was she able to register this fact before he killed her? Maybe she didn't register this until after Naruto showed up. Which makes her even slower.

Was she able to make any sort of tactical decision and track his movements in any way? Can you prove it? At all?

If you can't don't bother responding.

The mindset is pre-danzo-nap. As far as "tactical" goes, its a matter of opinion. In mine, when your on the verge of a 3 month coma after healing the entire village protecting them from a CST, I'd say throwing up your arms is probably about as tactical as one can manage.

However the point is that she was able to view him with her eyes.

Proof he can't. Either way, even in the incredibly unlikely event that she is capable of finding him(since he will be well out of her line of sight by the time the smoke clears from the summoning, if not already behind her having jammed a kunai into her brain)

Burden of proof, I don't have to prove he cannot. You, however, are stuck with proving he can. I have plenty of room to sit on this one being that I don't have to prove he cannot accomplish something. Until you bring me proof he can or does, I don't have to prove he can't or doesn't.

She still wouldn't be able to register the fact that she sees him and certainly not do anything about the fact that he's there until well after she's arleady dead.

Your acting like this woman has never walked outside in her lifetime.
If she can see Kakashi, and if by powerscaling she indeed has transonic reaction, then kakashi can be faster on the ground... she'll see him coming.

If you can prove otherwise, I welcome it. If you can't, don't bother responding.

Burden of Proof. If by powerscaling she indeed does have at minimum transonic reaction then she will see him coming. onto the next point.

Kamui doesn't affect his speed. It's just an offensive technique.

He used it to warp the jutsu and nail. This has everything to do with your reaction speed claims.

Kakashi reacted to a supersonic attack. He used a technique to stop the supersonic attack he reacted to. Did Kamui allow him to react to it? No.

Back to my reacting vs using.

Reacting is if he was facing the other way and then happened to glace over as the arrow was coming or the nail. The fact that he got to stare it down gives at least minimal prep. His Kumai can trigger at a monsterous speed, yes. Even warp objects at high speeds...

No matter how much you try and downplay it, it still happened.

Yes, but it happened with Kumai. Proof of him "reacting" to anything and not just triggering Kamui at the right moment.

There's also the issue of not needing to, even if that were true, which it isn't.

Because the man is smart enough to know that he has to run up a slugs back that he's never seen... but not smart enough to determine what a summon is. Or where tsunade is in the cloud, for that matter. Take your pick, he'd still have to check before he runs.

Proof he didn't. Tsunade is the Hokage, she's a famous ninja. She's called the slug princess. She uses Katsuyu in every fight she gets involved in. She summoned Katsuyu during Konoha's invasion. If generic garbage like Tenten knows about Katsuyu, why wouldn't Konoha's most powerful ninja?

Burden of proof. As for tenten, who knows exactly how she knows but point is is that she does indeed know. Perhaps it was the talking slugs during the invasion, but a ninja's hype in the world does not give excuse that the ninja's every technique is known. After all, Kakashi wasn't present for any of the slug summonings or for any of the after-brought efforts by the slug to heal everyone being he was already dead.

Not like it matters since he doesn't need to know the first thing about Katsuyu to kill Tsunade without trying.

Of course not. Of course, being that not knowing about the slug means he doesn't know the acid spit which covers a wide range... Or the fact that it can absorb him... or that it has a back to climb for that matter.

React to the giant cloud of smoke. React to the summoning technique. React to Tsunade moving period. Take your pick.

React to any of it.

Kakashi knows what a summoning is. And even if he didn't know about Katsuyu(which he does), he's not stupid enough to stand there like an idiot.

Of course not, because he will just run in without searching the cloud of tsunade's chakra outline... Or determining what she summoned. Also proof he did indeed know. I want proof of him saying something about it at any time, something being said to him about it, or him being present for any activity involving it.

When you see someone use summoning technique, which is followed by a giant cloud of smoke, do you start moving or do you stand there and wait to find out what's in that cloud of smoke?

I stand and determine my opponent's position and then go for the kill. Unless your saying kakashi is just going to assume she is at the top and then somehow find the way to the backside of something he knows nothing about and hopes that he is right and that the slug doesn't have any abilities that might hinder it.

And she's going to do this in the second or two it takes for the smoke to clear is she? And she's going to do this despite the fact that Kakashi just jammed a kunai in her brain?

How, pray tell, do you substantiate this claim? If powerscaling is correct she can avoid any regular kunai attack he has. Not to mention if she happens to pop scalpel as she sees him coming and reacts, its -1 hand and then soon after -1 body under control. Or hell, just one punch should do it.

I commend you for being alot less blatant in your attempts to exaggerate Tsunade's abilities and downplay Kakashi's, as opposed to Lady Tsunade who is convinced that the Godaime Hokage could kill Superboy-Prime with one hit and anyone who faces off against her is weaker than a newborn baby, but the fact is, you're still attempting to exaggerate Tsunade's abilities and downplay Kakashi's and if that's all you're going to do, bugger off.

I'm not trying to do any of the sort, but you seem to be doing it for Tsunade. As I've said many times, I'm not on either side but I'm making sure every point of this debate is heard.

Also for the hell of it...

Kakashi goes up the slug, tsunade has the slug seperate and absorb kakashi. It then proceeds to digest him, unless you have proof that he has something that can beat a slug who, divided a thousand or so times over, tanked a village buster with next to no effort.



in red

tyrell4life194
01-01-2011, 06:49 PM
I thought I proven this to you idiots long ago. Lets agree that Kakashi is border Transonic via Powerscaling. Lets leave it at that. One more crap from you Dudemeister, then I'll take you on.

Frost Ninja, Dudemeister is going to ask for proof. Either let me deal with it, or just ignore him, and let him be.

Nyruss
01-01-2011, 07:20 PM
Since Frost Ninja has succumbed to the Lady Tsunade Virus and lost all concept of rational thought, and as a result, there is no one capable of defending Tsunade(not that there ever was from the start), Kakashi wins.

tyrell4life194
01-01-2011, 07:24 PM
Complete and utter ;);););););););). Frost Ninja knows what he's talking about, unlike you, who doesn't know diddly about Tsunade.

Nyruss
01-01-2011, 07:26 PM
That's two votes for Kakashi. Anyone else?

tyrell4life194
01-01-2011, 07:28 PM
That is complete and utter ;);););););););)!

Frost ninja
01-01-2011, 07:28 PM
Dudemeister wheres that evidence?
Until you can bring some to make my assertions incorrect then this debate is still going onwards and your arrogance belies your lack of evidence and a firm base.

Heres what you have to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt:

Kakashi can move as fast or faster than rocket boots Asura
Kakashi knew about the slug summon
Kakashi can attack someone without looking
Kakashi somehow has knowledge of Tsunade's exact position
Kakashi can escape a slug whom, a thousand times divided, tanked village-wide CST without trouble
Kakashi can reach Tsunade
Kakashi can hit tsunade with her reaction time to the point as to where she cannot simply regenerate it

Nyruss
01-01-2011, 07:30 PM
That's three votes for Kakashi. This is turning into a land slide.

tyrell4life194
01-01-2011, 07:31 PM
Finally. Frost Ninja is the only person, besides me, whom believes that Dudemeister is arrogant. Ok, it's official. Someone should make Frost Ninja a mod. Reps forever.

tyrell4life194
01-01-2011, 07:31 PM
*Sigh* Dudemeister, unless you provide proof to back up your claims, then drop it.

Frost ninja
01-01-2011, 07:33 PM
That's three votes for Kakashi. This is turning into a land slide.


:P I'm supposing this means you concede defeat, I'll notify a moderator to close this thread being you're trying to cover your loss with posts with no relevance.

Nyruss
01-01-2011, 07:34 PM
Yes, I agree this thread is garbage and should have been locked four pages ago, but alas, TheBlackChidori holds all the cards.

tyrell4life194
01-01-2011, 07:34 PM
Damn.

tyrell4life194
01-01-2011, 07:35 PM
Yeah, TheBlackChidori holds all the cards, to whoop your ass. Besides Dudemeister, you lost quite a few debates against me. Don't think you're high and mighty.

Nyruss
01-01-2011, 07:36 PM
So we're all agreed. Kakashi wins, thread is garbage, Frost Ninja is insane, Dudemeister is great. The whole nine yards.

Frost ninja
01-01-2011, 07:38 PM
So we're all agreed. Kakashi wins, thread is garbage, Frost Ninja is insane, Dudemeister is great. The whole nine yards.

Your efforts to possibly troll me (I can't tell if your just a madman) are failing. I laugh at you. Hahaha.

All points aside as I've said before I'm not taking sides on this one. If your going to wank for or against someone else then I'll step in and make sure its not a one-sided ordeal.

On the side note, I offer you tea, mr. mad hatter. :P

Nyruss
01-01-2011, 07:39 PM
Only the mad believe they are not mad.

tyrell4life194
01-01-2011, 07:39 PM
Ok, since Frost Ninja and Dudemeister are done bashing each other, I guess it's time for me and Dudemeister to settle this in another thread. Please, lock this thread someone. P.S: Frosty would've had a better debate against me, than Dudewanker here.

Frost ninja
01-01-2011, 07:41 PM
As I said before, dudemeister, prove the list of points.

If this is a landslide as you said, it should be no problem. After all, the burden of proof on all of these points to prove are on you.

Nyruss
01-01-2011, 07:42 PM
I did that. You, like the rest of Team Tsunade, just don't want to accept it. Your attempts to prove that Tsunade can win rely entirely on Tsunade having abilities she doesn't have, with stats she never showed. When that doesn't work, you fall back on trying to downplay Kakashi.

It's the same old story from start to finish. The words are different but the wank is the same.

Frost ninja
01-01-2011, 07:43 PM
I did that. You, like the rest of Team Tsunade, just don't want to accept it.

Then copy/paste your evidence. I've read through and I don't see any pages or references that do indeed answer these, but perhaps the "wankage" I've been tossing about has blinded me.

In which case reposting said pages and chapters in responce to my list shouldn't be too much of a chore.

If an ability was in question, I attempted to answer it what all I could. If you cannot do more than step in and downplay tsunade then obviously your not prepared to finish this.

tyrell4life194
01-01-2011, 07:44 PM
Oh really? Me and Frost Ninja already provided all of our proof, and showed each other Manga Chapters and Page Numbers to support our claims. However, you, being the loner of us three, desides to troll on Frost Ninja, rather than listen to his advice to provide proof. You've done nothing to support your claims, even though every BGer knows that supporting your claims is what you have to do to win an argument. Not only did you let his advice go, you turned this into a trollfest.

Nyruss
01-01-2011, 07:47 PM
http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4565243&postcount=68
http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4563622&postcount=58
http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4563312&postcount=52
http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4563261&postcount=49
http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4563178&postcount=46
http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4563124&postcount=44
http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4562927&postcount=42
http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4562835&postcount=40

Here you go. All the evidence you'll ever need. None of it was ever disproven, all you did was wank and wank until you became convinced that it held no value.

I never downplay Tsunade. I always give a fair assessment of her abilities regardless of what I think of her. If it occurs that she ever gets a fight she can win, I will gladly argue for her side. But until then, I'll continue to accurately claim she's weak.

tyrell4life194
01-01-2011, 07:50 PM
These posts you created were garbage. They've shown no proof as to prove any of your claims correctly. All you ever provided was baseless claims. I want you to provide actual evidence to support your claims. As I've stated many times over, opinion=/=fact.

Frost ninja
01-01-2011, 07:51 PM
http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4565243&postcount=68
http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4563622&postcount=58
http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4563312&postcount=52
http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4563261&postcount=49
http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4563178&postcount=46
http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4563124&postcount=44
http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4562927&postcount=42
http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4562835&postcount=40

Here you go. All the evidence you'll ever need. None of it was ever disproven, all you did was wank and wank until you became convinced that it held no value.

I never downplay Tsunade. I always give a fair assessment of her abilities regardless of what I think of her. If it occurs that she ever gets a fight she can win, I will gladly argue for her side. But until then, I'll continue to accurately claim she's weak.

I saw no chapters or pages in this, good sir. At least, not from you. I do see some of mine, however.
No powerscaling claims either.


You can claim she is weak all you wish, good sir.
Problem lies in that you have to prove said claim for it to be true.

You've been in the BG long enough to know what evidence pertains to.
Even I, a fresh debater somewhat, knows what it is.

You have none of it. I suppose this means I do win for the sake that your argument has no EVIDENCE to back it, just claims you couldn't prove.

Nyruss
01-01-2011, 07:51 PM
Yes yes, we've heard it all before tyrell. I'm great, you're terrible(which I'm sure isn't true, but if you wanna talk bad about yourself be my guest)

tyrell4life194
01-01-2011, 07:54 PM
Dudemeister, as much as I would LOVE to tell you off, I'm not even going to bother. You're not even worth it.

Frost ninja
01-01-2011, 07:58 PM
Take it elsewhere, you two. If it doesn't have a chapter and page number, and/or some concrete proof behind it then it doesn't belong here.

If you wanna throw a hissy fit at each other, do it somewhere else. If you've got something relevant, post it.

Devil's Lawyer
01-01-2011, 08:00 PM
So question how does Tsunade not get blitzed by Kakashi? She has impressive reactions but nothing on the level of current Kakashi. A katsuya summoning can easily be disrupted by a Kunai barrag etc. In close combat Tsunade skills does not come close to Kakashi's. Then there is no gurantee she can keep successfully healing from a raikiri or Lightning hounds.

Nyruss
01-01-2011, 08:01 PM
Nor does it belong here if the chapter and page numbers provided don't actually have any merit in proving the accompanying claims.

tyrell4life194
01-01-2011, 08:02 PM
I'll post something relavent.

Since Tsunade has the necessary reaction speed to avoid all of Kakashi's attacks, she should be able to match him. Also, even though Kakashi is superb in Taijutsu, Tsunade, with Hype, is much more skilled than Kakashi in Taijutsu.

Also, her chakra enhanced punches would mean trouble for Kakashi. If she punches the ground, she can trap Kakashi under rock and rubble. That is, if she can destract Kakashi, long enough for her to do that.

I believe, her own Taijutsu skills are the only way to win this match.

tyrell4life194
01-01-2011, 08:05 PM
So question how does Tsunade not get blitzed by Kakashi? She has impressive reactions but nothing on the level of current Kakashi. A katsuya summoning can easily be disrupted by a Kunai barrag etc. In close combat Tsunade skills does not come close to Kakashi's. Then there is no gurantee she can keep successfully healing from a raikiri or Lightning hounds.
Current level Kakashi, is only around Transonic speed. I've proven this multiple times already. Tsunade, with Powerscaling, has Transonic reaction speed. She should do fine, as to dodge all of Kakashi's incoming attacks.

Kunai barrage? Which Tsunade will dodge. And it only depends on how much Kunai Kakashi has. A shinobi and kunoichi can only carry so much Kunai within their pouches. Not only that, but it only took a few moments for Tsunade to summon Katsuyu. That is, if Tsunade can summon Katsuyu, before Kakashi attempts to blitz.

Also, there is no guarantee that Kakashi's Lightning Hound will even reach Tsunade, whom is on top of Katsuyu. Moreso, there is no guarantee that Kakashi will even make it to the top, before Tsunade punches him.

Frost ninja
01-01-2011, 08:09 PM
Dudemeister until you can provide proof you don't have reason or right to disown or call out anyone elses claims that have had evidence backing them

@ Devil

Summoning takes one panel. Proof of the kunai traveling that far in as short a time as it takes. Mind you every second you take is a second less you have to close the distance.

As for reactions, its transonic. For now, thats good enough for the purpose of the counterargument.

As for close range, a chakra scalpel landed almost anywhere means kakashi loses something off of his body. Lacking control and the like makes it almost impossible to avoid her attacks when you don't have legs to run on or arms to block with.

Raikiri vs a giant slug, the slug runs over kakashi or spits acid on him

As for lightning hounds, I'll need proof they can get that far into the air.

Mind you if the slug seperates and catches kakashi, I'll need proof that kakashi can provide a force greater than CST village-buster to break free, even then if more climb on then you'll have to use more force. If he doesn't get digested, then its likely he gets either an incapasitation (being he can't escape the slug) or just dies.

Drowns in mucus, gets fried in pools of stomach acid. etc etc very gruesome.

Nyruss
01-01-2011, 08:10 PM
As I said before, I provided plenty of evidence. You just won't accept it.

Devil's Lawyer
01-01-2011, 08:11 PM
I'll post something relavent.

Since Tsunade has the necessary reaction speed to avoid all of Kakashi's attacks, she should be able to match him. Also, even though Kakashi is superb in Taijutsu, Tsunade, with Hype, is much more skilled than Kakashi in Taijutsu.

Also, her chakra enhanced punches would mean trouble for Kakashi. If she punches the ground, she can trap Kakashi under rock and rubble. That is, if she can destract Kakashi, long enough for her to do that.

I believe, her own Taijutsu skills are the only way to win this match.

No she doesn't have the necessary reactions skills to avoid Kakashi attacks. She reacted to a part1 kabuto and Oro. Both of which have not demonstrated speed or reaction to Kakashi. Whose speed who outstripped a c1 attack from Deidara. Which if you remember was fast as Gaara sand and Kept up with Sasuke speed. Tsunade feats are all part 1 all the characters from part1 has had a significant speed and skill upgrade. Compared to back then. No comparison really. Tsunade only hope is Katsuya. Even before that Kakashi can hit her with a genjutsu and blitz.

tyrell4life194
01-01-2011, 08:11 PM
You haven't provided any concrete of proof throughout this entire argument.

J-Sun Tasogare
01-01-2011, 08:12 PM
Since this is not going to end well....until further notice this is closed.

Yori
01-01-2011, 08:13 PM
Want me to lock it?

J-Sun Tasogare
01-01-2011, 08:19 PM
It's already locked...xD

Kuromaki
01-01-2011, 08:22 PM
Throwing this in the graveyard. If anyone objects, just move it back.