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zerosameri
11-19-2010, 04:23 PM
I made this because of these
I don't see it zero, the Senju and Uzumaki are distant relatives, meaning that they are not both Senju. That leaves questions about the Hyuugas considering what has been stated that the Uchiha's origins lay with Hyuuga's and not the other way around then I suppose we could actually assume that the Hyuuga's are the original direct decendant of the Elder son and the Uchiha split from the Hyuuga (perhaps a former branch house).

Everyone is not necessarily related either. The Sage of Six paths created ninjutsu, he was not credited with creating the world. The fact is that that regardless of who can draw ties to the sage, not all clans can, only the truly exceptional (through endowed ability) can really draw those ties and loosely at that.

You can't just say "Uzumaki are part of the Senju" prior to Mito marrying the first hokage, there is no proof. My statement that the Uzumaki are related to the Elder son are just as valid as yours stating they are to the Senju (Prior to the first Hokage). It makes sense that the actual importance of the Uzumaki and Senju alliance was important because right there would establish a relationship between direct decents of the elder and younger son (as I speculate).

The theory of the Occular jutsus is just a theory and question, we believe that mutation creates these, but we know that certain actions have dire conseqences when it comes with messing with chakra or performing/creating forbidden jutsus. We could argue that the Sharingan is the product of a forbidden jutsu performed by a former Hyuuga? perhaps that would explain the curse and the "cursed clan" referral.

Also, what I meant by sacrificing ones self, more like self manglement, as in your own body like Nagato did in order to recognize his true power with all the chakra rods through him.
what Zero's saying is that everyone's in Hyuuga, Senju, Uzumaki, and Uchiha share one DISTANT relative.

The manga tells us:

1.Sharingan is evolved from Rinnegan of elder son

2.Uchiha's origins lie with Hyuuga

*When you put these together the only answer is*
Rikudo begot elder son, elder son begot Hyuuga (somewhere down the line), Hyuuga begot Uchiha. Therefore, Hyuuga and Uchiha both trace back to the RS.

3. Senju derived from younger son

4. Uzumaki is a distant relative of Senju

*When you put these together there can be two answers*
Rikudo begot younger son who begot senju who later branched of to Uzumaki.....or.......Rikudo to younger son who begot 2 different families directly. In either case both Senju and Uzumaki trace back to Rikudo.

So there you have it. From the only information we have, all 4 clans trace back to the Rikudo who is the common ancestor making all of them very very very very distant relatives. So assuming the information we've recieved is correct this is more fact than theory.



Lets start with the basic's

So ok RS had 2 son's bla bla bla bla bla 1 was Uchiha one was Senju.

Uchiha clan is related to the Senju Clan. Then some were down the lin Senju clan made the Uzumaki clan. Then some were down he line we got Hyuga's

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/2742/charta.jpg

So we have Rinnengan ---> Sharingan -----> Byakugan

But some how the Byakugan and Hyuga's came from the Uchiha clan, when it's more likely they came from the Senju clan. :\

EvL j3st3r
11-19-2010, 06:07 PM
Uchiha came from Hyuuga

zerosameri
11-19-2010, 06:52 PM
Uchiha came from Senju
No they are the only 2 clans who came from no one.

SageKyuubi
11-19-2010, 07:03 PM
its like this: RS had two sons one with his eyes one with his body

Son w/Rinnegan---Hyuga---Uchiha
Rikudo Sage<
Son w/Body----Senju----Uzumaki

the clans with dojutsu are decendants of the oldest son with the Sage's eyes, it makes more sense to me that way....idk when the Hyuga became seperated from both

zerosameri
11-19-2010, 07:16 PM
its like this: RS had two sons one with his eyes one with his body

Son w/Rinnegan---Hyuga---Uchiha
Rikudo Sage<
Son w/Body----Senju----Uzumaki

the clans with dojutsu are decendants of the oldest son with the Sage's eyes, it makes more sense to me that way....idk when the Hyuga became seperated from both

The Hyuga clan did not make the Uchiha clan. The 1st 2 clans were Senju and Uchiha, unless that was a lie. RS did not give any son the Rinngan.

SageKyuubi
11-19-2010, 07:29 PM
The Hyuga clan did not make the Uchiha clan. The 1st 2 clans were Senju and Uchiha, unless that was a lie. RS did not give any son the Rinngan.

ok im gonna look for the chapter right now and ill tell you which chapter its in and show you because i remember that part

oh and that chart-ish thing i made was not in order it was just what clans came from which brother

SilentBlade
11-19-2010, 09:00 PM
Find for me, in the chapters that states that Uzumaki are decendant from Senju prior to Mito and the 1st Hokage. If you can show me that proof I will believe it.

Secondly the Hyuuga clan came BEFORE the Uchiha clan, the chapter reference is ch. 78 pg 13.

Finally, you are drawing lines as though Rikudo and his sons were anywhere near proximity to the formation of the Senju and Uchiha, the Senju and Uchiha were DISTANT relatives of the sons of Rikudo, meaning there is a huge gap of history and relationships that are not spelled out for us.

edit: Considering Naruto has powerful chakra and physical energy (obvious based on the Rasen Shuriken), we could argue that aspects of both sons are alive in him.

SageKyuubi
11-19-2010, 09:01 PM
alright Zerosameri read Ch 462 pg 12 it explains that the elder son was born with the sages eyes and was gifted with his powerful chakra and spiritual energy, and the younger son was born with the sage's body and was gifted with his life force and physical energy

zerosameri
11-19-2010, 09:09 PM
Find for me, in the chapters that states that Uzumaki are decendant from Senju prior to Mito and the 1st Hokage. If you can show me that proof I will believe it.

Secondly the Hyuuga clan came BEFORE the Uchiha clan, the chapter reference is in my thread "Rinnegan to Sharingan."

Finally, you are drawing lines as though Rikudo and his sons were anywhere near proximity to the formation of the Senju and Uchiha, the Senju and Uchiha were DISTANT relatives of the sons of Rikudo, meaning there is a huge gap of history and relationships that are not spelled out for us.Sure.

What chapter?

....:/ Rikudo had 2 sons. Senju one and Uchiha one. Uchiha one made the Uchiha clan, Senju one made the Senju clan. They are not THAT Distant. But no in the current time yes they are THAT Distant, but it doesn't matter any more there are only 3 Uchiha's; 2 of them are really alive and a fourth of a Senju :/

SilentBlade
11-19-2010, 09:14 PM
I believe there is a long period of history before the formation of the Uchiha and Senju. I would actually state that Rikudo's clan were just two divided houses under the same name for a long time.

When the story is told about the Uchiha and Senju it is told from the Uchiha side and is simplified a lot. It is stated that the Uchiha and Senju are rivals because they act like mercinaries (hired by the feudal lords). But that is very specific, there could have been a lot of things that had happened, and as the Hyuuga's complicate things further it actually shows us the history that brought us to the Senju and Uchiha is even more shrouded and distant than we even considered.

gama-sennin
11-19-2010, 09:19 PM
Kishi is simply screwing around with the story...He initially said that teh epic Sharingan evolved from Byakugan(supposedly the strongest eye tech from 1st part) and now Byakugan is totally out of the picture and of course way weaker than teh epic sharingan.

About being related to each other stuff; it was supposed to be a story about kids of unknown parentage making it big in the world full of mighty clans. But now almost everyone is an offspring of SoTSP.

SilentBlade
11-19-2010, 09:24 PM
There are a lot of ppl who claim relation to the Rikudo's sons, but I'd honestly state that the Uchiha, Hyuuga and Uzumaki , and Senju (if any still are around) can honestly draw their lines since they have existed for so long. The Uzumaki clan is scattered (as was stated) when the land of whirlpools disappeared. The Uchiha has 2 suriving members, and we don't know all that much about the Hyuuga.

Consider this though. the Byakugan was very protected and covetted by others because the Uchiha were practically wiped out , no Rinnegan users were known. More or less it is the last prominent occular jutsu around.

SageKyuubi
11-19-2010, 10:23 PM
Find for me, in the chapters that states that Uzumaki are decendant from Senju prior to Mito and the 1st Hokage. If you can show me that proof I will believe it.

Secondly the Hyuuga clan came BEFORE the Uchiha clan, the chapter reference is ch. 78 pg 13.

Finally, you are drawing lines as though Rikudo and his sons were anywhere near proximity to the formation of the Senju and Uchiha, the Senju and Uchiha were DISTANT relatives of the sons of Rikudo, meaning there is a huge gap of history and relationships that are not spelled out for us.

edit: Considering Naruto has powerful chakra and physical energy (obvious based on the Rasen Shuriken), we could argue that aspects of both sons are alive in him.

Check out Ch 500 Kushina says that the Uzumaki and Senju are distantly related

SilentBlade
11-19-2010, 10:34 PM
Thats fine, they are distantly related. The Uchiha and the Senju are distantly related too. That could be interpreted as the Uzumaki, like the Uchiha were a split off of an Elder sons clan, and would be still distantly related.

SageKyuubi
11-19-2010, 10:44 PM
I made a thread explaining this whole ancestry thing and about the Rikudo Sage i think it could help settle some of this.

the thread is Rikudo Sage And Ancestry

EvL j3st3r
11-20-2010, 09:06 AM
No they are the only 2 clans who came from no one.

Sorry, I misspoke. I meant Uchiha came from Hyuuga, not the other way around.

EvL j3st3r
11-20-2010, 09:11 AM
Thats fine, they are distantly related. The Uchiha and the Senju are distantly related too. That could be interpreted as the Uzumaki, like the Uchiha were a split off of an Elder sons clan, and would be still distantly related.


Yea...but if they were distant relatives that way they would be closer relatives to the Uchiha. If that were the case it would have made more sense for the manga to point out there origin to the Uchiha instead of "they're distant relatives of the Senju".

SilentBlade
11-20-2010, 09:48 AM
eh, there is a huge gap of time between the sons and the formation of the Uchiha and Senju, that gap is important, vague and done on purpose. The significants of the Uchiha and the Senju play a very important role, however we can state with some certainty that they were not the only clans that drew lines to the Elder and Younger son.

At the point of the Uchiha and Senju one could state that it was so far distant that just about anyone would be considered a distant relative, by proof of that I use the Hyuuga clan existing and splitting in that time period, and probably a clan pior to the Hyuuga.

But anywho! back on to topic eh? how do we think the Rinnegan split into the known occular jutsus that now exist?

EvL j3st3r
11-20-2010, 09:54 AM
that would be the topic of your thread. This is zero's thread

SilentBlade
11-20-2010, 10:01 AM
oh right, got lost in the multipe people moving this topic around, anywho. I stick by my guns, that there isn't enough info and such a time lapse between the Senju and Uchiha from Rikudo's sons, we can't draw definitive lines to anyone but Uchiha and Senju, any other related clans to Rikudo's sons are purely open to interpretation.

EvL j3st3r
11-20-2010, 10:17 AM
oh right, got lost in the multipe people moving this topic around, anywho. I stick by my guns, that there isn't enough info and such a time lapse between the Senju and Uchiha from Rikudo's sons, we can't draw definitive lines to anyone but Uchiha and Senju, any other related clans to Rikudo's sons are purely open to interpretation.


That's true. But what we can do is take what the manga has given us and make an educated guess. The only problem with Uzumaki coming from the elder son is that would put them closer to the Uchiha. So why would they be described as distant relatives of Senju instead of Uchiha or maybe even Hyuuga. That would make it too obvious that the author is desperately trying to throw us off the trail. Mentioning there relation to the Senju clan is insinuating there linage from the younger son. Mentioning they're relation to the Uchiha or Hyuuga would have been insinuating their linage to the elder son.

SilentBlade
11-20-2010, 01:39 PM
I won't discredit what you are saying. I mean it certainly is true, but sometimes I think the things we think are most obvious end up not being the actual, just to toss in somthing that kind of makes readers stop and look back.

I mean I suppose the repeating theme of this generation of ninja representing certain people in the story already makes a bit of sense, you have got the Sannin who were a team , represented by Naruto, Sauske and Sakura being their sucessors.

So I mean, perhaps it would go with the theme further having Sauske and Naruto represent the elder and younger son could go along with the theme, that is a possibility. I just look for the twists, and perhaps that relationship with Sauske and Naruto not necessarily being what the Senju and Uchiha were would make him somewhere in the middle.

The reason they would referr to them as distant relatives to the Senju is at this point the only clan relation to the younger son we can make is the Senju. At this point we have the younger son's clan of the Senju attempting to make peace with the elder son's clan(s). Consider we have the Uchiha and the Hyuuga living in the Leaf village, it would make sense then to further add a close relationship to the Uzumaki.

Now the Obvious question, why would clans split so much in the elder sons side? groups that look for power! the elder son was obsessed with power if we are to make an educated guess as to what he was like, he was angry that he was not the one to succeed his father, quests for power cause rifts.

The only other theory I could think of (as reading this) is that when Rikudo passed on and chose his younger son to succeed him, he endowed the occular jutsu into his younger son giving him the complete power, which caused the elder son to enrage because he did not get the power the younger son had.

SageKyuubi
11-20-2010, 11:23 PM
im putting this info from my thread on Zero's thread so it can hopefully help continue this dicussion....

Alright i want to clarify a little bit of things about the Rikudo Sage and a little bit of ancenstry

The Rikudo Sage preached th way of the ninja and tried to bring peace to the world but he died before he can make that dream of peace into reality. He entrusted 2 boys with the power and will of the way of the ninja, those 2 boys were his sons. The oldest son was born with the Sage's eyes(Rinnegan)... and was gifted with Rikudo's powerful chakra and spiritual energy, this son believed that might and force was the key to peace. The younger son was born with the Sage's body... and was gifted with his life force and physical energy. The younger son believed love was the key to peace. On his deathbed the Sage had to choose a successor.... and this eternal curse of hatred throughout the ninja world was born from that decision. Because the Sage believed that it was the younger, not the older son who was best suited to be his successor, and chose him. The older son convinced he should have been chosen, could not accept the Sage's decision... and attacked his younger brother in hatred.

Time passed and though their blood had thinned, the descendants of the two brothers still go to war with each other. The descendants of the older brother were called Uchiha. And the descendants of the Younger brother were called Senju. Madara's battle with Hashirama was FATE. So in a way the battle between the two brothers has not been settled. Yet...

ANCESTRY:
The Uzumaki clan and the Senju clan are distantly related. The red spiral on the back of jackets worn by ninja in Konoha is a mark of a village that the Uzumaki clan came from and is used in Konoha as a symbol of friendship between Senju and Uzumaki. Mito Uzumaki was a kunoichi from the Uzumaki clan and she was the wife of Hashirama (1st Hokage). The village were the Uzumaki originally resided in was destroyed and the Uzumaki were scattered around the land.

So Naruto Uzumaki is a looonnng distant relative of the Rikudo Sage's younger son. And Sasuke Uchiha is obviously a distant relative of the older son. According to Madara Sasuke and Naruto's fight is also fate just as his was with the 1st Hokage due to them being descendants of the older and younger sons of the Rikudo Sage.

Concerning Nagato's ancestry I believe one of his parents must have been a member of the Uzumaki clan, and the other parent might have had some relation to the older son of Rikudo Sage (which i think were Madara interfered) and that combination of distant DNA probably gave Nagato his Rinnegan

My references on this information were Ch 462 and Ch 500 of the Manga

DeemonFox
11-21-2010, 12:56 AM
I think SilentBlade is under the assumption that naruto has the Rinnegan. At this point, I'm not sure he needs it.:p

SilentBlade
11-21-2010, 08:49 AM
I personally believe that Naruto will end up the Incarnation of Sage of Six Paths to bring a war torn world back to peaceful times. The while child or prophecy idea brings to mind the idea that this would happen and be necessary. It goes further that Jiraiya actually trained both because he thought of the possibility. I believe an important part of the end of the story will be how the tailed beasts are dealt with, which leads me to believe that Naruto will have to combine and seal the ten-tails in himself before it ends. This would effectively end the idea of nations with "super power" weapons and the suffering brought on to the Jinchuriki they are sealed into.

A problem with your theory SageKyuubi is that if this were true, then the Hyuuga would have been the ones at war with the Senju initially and not the Uchiha. There is an important connection there we should make, meaning that the battles between the Elder and Younger son's didn't start immediately and actually probably started after this clan split from the Hyuuga creating the "cursed clan" of the Uchiha, which makes us wonder exactly what they may have done to attain that title.

Putting that time line into perspective it may be less accurate to say that the Uzumaki would have been closer to the Uchiha, they would have been closer to the Hyuuga, and perhaps that was the case but since the Hyuuga were never brought up in conversations about the sage or his son's it can be left open to wonder.

The assumptions are made that the Uzumaki are related to the Senju, and that is definitely possible, I won't state as a fact that they arn't, however since there is no direct statement that they are, it leaves it open. I do realize it says that they were distant relatives of the Senju, and I don't think it would have referred to them as distant relatives of the Uchiha talking in prospective about a forming relationship being made between the Senju and Uzumaki. The fact is the relationship was established because it was an important relationship and the importance of said relationship leads me to believe elder/younger son.

SageKyuubi
11-21-2010, 10:03 AM
i see what you mean SilentBlade but the thing is the Uchiha and Hyuga all though connected maybe in some way, are two completely different clans with different ways af viewing the world.... lets bring it back to the time when there were no village system and only clans. We know for a fact that the Senju and the Uchiha were around at the time and they formed Konoha which created the village system, now that leaves us to believe that the Uchiha and Hyuga already split and the Hyuga came after the village system was formed... Now although the Uchiha made a compromise they are a power hungry clan and still believed that they should lead the village thus the Uchiha always being the ones willing to go to war and fighting... Now in the Hyuga clan i believe they were more peaceful than the Uchiha when it came to power, they could deal will not being in control unlike the Uchiha so the Hyuga never clashed with the Senju which is probably why the whole mystery of the Hyuga clan is unknown because they are not a clan of war but a clan of peace so they must have never done anything drastic enough to get them exteme recognition like the Uchiha, which makes my point why the Uchiha are different from the Hyuga and why we know so little of the Hyuga

SilentBlade
11-21-2010, 12:15 PM
i see what you mean SilentBlade but the thing is the Uchiha and Hyuga all though connected maybe in some way, are two completely different clans with different ways af viewing the world.... lets bring it back to the time when there were no village system and only clans. We know for a fact that the Senju and the Uchiha were around at the time and they formed Konoha which created the village system, now that leaves us to believe that the Uchiha and Hyuga already split and the Hyuga came after the village system was formed... Now although the Uchiha made a compromise they are a power hungry clan and still believed that they should lead the village thus the Uchiha always being the ones willing to go to war and fighting... Now in the Hyuga clan i believe they were more peaceful than the Uchiha when it came to power, they could deal will not being in control unlike the Uchiha so the Hyuga never clashed with the Senju which is probably why the whole mystery of the Hyuga clan is unknown because they are not a clan of war but a clan of peace so they must have never done anything drastic enough to get them exteme recognition like the Uchiha, which makes my point why the Uchiha are different from the Hyuga and why we know so little of the Hyuga

I agree with this, the Hyuuga are an uknown. This creates a situation where we can state then that there are more clans related to the son of Rikudo. This leaves things open significantly meaning that with even less known about the Uzumaki we can state that the Uzumaki could have been the starting point also of the elder son's clan. The story states that the Senju and Uchiha were rivals, not at war with each other persay, but when nations would go to war and hire onshinobi, if e nation hired one, the other would hire the other, meaning that they were indirectly at war only because of contracts of money.

There arguably would be no significants of a Senju clan becoming allies with another Senju related clan, that would be very trivial in its own nature and would require no real acklowedgement. All that would have had to have been said was that Mito and the first hokage got married and had children, and that line could have been drawn. There was a significants in alliance between the Uzumaki and Senju since we were told, and the details of how they were related outside of distant relatives is all that we are given.

I believe that the Uchiha were significant because they were the clan that carried on the vengful side of the elder son, while all others gave up war for peace and accepted what had happened, the Uchiha were the ones who were the "avengers" and sought to avenge an injustice (they felt) was done to the elder son until the price of life was to high. Seeing as they were most likely the last clan to make peace it would have made sense then to settle the village and offer them the prospect of a home.