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SilentBlade
11-11-2010, 12:46 PM
I have been trying to really look through the Manga more to solidify this a bit, but really it gets difficult after a while trying to weed through what relates to this and what doesn't but more or less this would tie Naruto to Nagato and the elder son of the Sage of 6 paths.


There are some facts that I have been considering, though many argue that because of the Uzumaki's "longevity" it shows a tie to the younger son, however one could wonder that if Madara is actually the original Madara, then the logevity and even a ton of stamina (being able to control the nine-tails and such.) is actually a trait of his more so than Naruto.

Then of course we have the form he takes on when he's working on his new training with the 9-tails Chakra being very similar to the form we see of the sage of six paths. Also we can explore the fact that when Madara found Nagato he was in the Uzumaki burial and shares the of the Uzumaki red hair (like Kushina).

This blood connection to Nagato and possible tie to the elder son of the sage of six paths seems contrary to what we believe and actually tieing the Uchiha's to the younger son seems odder still, but as I have kind of came to understand perhaps the Rinnegan was never actually awakened in Naruto because in situations of high stress (life threatening) instead of the Rinnegan becoming active the Chakra of the 9-tails took over.

There just isn't enough about Kushina or Minato to determine whether either of them had this trait or not, it actually seems like most of the information dealing with Naruto's history is really kept shrouded and perhaps this is why.

We can definitely draw a line to connect Kushina (some how) to Nagato, and we can then connect Nagato, more than likely, to the elder son of six paths. The thing I am missing is the line drawn to Minato, or even further information about Kushin's lineage.

GwynethUchiha
11-11-2010, 12:52 PM
That's a good predition I was thinking the same thing too that n=maybe now that Naruto can control the 9 tails maybe he can get the rinnagan

Blah.
11-11-2010, 02:02 PM
Kind of old news to me, but i like the thought process. lol.
this is why i wouldnt be surprised if naruto is capable of awakening the rinnegan in future chapters. i just wish we knew more about other uzumaki's.

SilentBlade
11-11-2010, 02:08 PM
For those of you reading, I mean I know the idea of Naruto having the Rinnegan isn't "ground breaking" I am just seeing how well the facts I've gathered string togeather to kind of create a cohecive theory.

Also the idea that the Uchiha's are related to the younger son and not the older, provable through the life span of Madara (if it IS actually Madara). And of course the theory that the Uzumaki's and Uchiha's can both be linked to the elder son.

(edit: should state that these are two different theories, if Madara is actually himself without a body switching jutsu)

The common belief is that the Sharingan is decendant of the Rinnegan, but one would wonder if perhaps the sharingan was the creation of the younger son who sought an occular jutsu, but could not create the rinnegan.

DeemonFox
11-11-2010, 03:31 PM
yea, i thought it was obvious and the readers were suppose to make the connection. Uzumaki is a distant relative of the Senju meaning they share a common ancestor, the younger brother and inheritor of Sennin's body. Uchiha descended from the older brother inheriting the eye. That sets the stage for Naruto vs. Sasuke and answer to the 'key to peace' question.

SilentBlade
11-11-2010, 03:39 PM
That is actually not where I am taking my theory, I am actually going the opposite way, saying that the Uzumaki's are distant relatives of the Elder son, and the Uchiha's are distant relatives of the younger son, which kind of throws a wrench in there.

The older son was given the eyes of the sage, and the younger the body. Drawing lines from the elder son to Nagato (who has the rinnegan) and then lines from Nagato to the Uzumaki clan, we assume then that Naruto has some relation then to the elder son of the sage through his mothers side (Madara had found Nagato at the Uzumaki burial ground, and stated that he even had the signature Uzumaki red hair like Kushina).

Making the other connection from the Uchiha to the younger son, Itachi states that Madara is immortal during the fight between Itachi and Sauske, which leads me to believe that that the "longevity" of life mastered by Madara could link him to the younger, also the amount of power could as well.

It would certainly be a twist because of the actual situation where the younger son was made the sages heir and the older tried to kill him for it.

Edit: we don't know why the older son tried to kill the younger son to be the heir , meaning whether his intentions were simple to gain power or if the younger son became corrupt and evil.

Blah.
11-11-2010, 09:37 PM
Ohh i see..
that is definitely a different perspective.
thats very interesting..

SilentBlade
11-11-2010, 09:42 PM
I am looking foward to see how it all plays out, I really wish Kishi would give us a bit more background information ont he lieage of Naruto through Minato's side. It would be interesting if Minato had some sort of relation to the Senju, which would give Naruto the body and eyes of the sage, arguably the "child of destiny" would have been concieved that way.

Blah.
11-11-2010, 09:49 PM
I agree. The Namikaze's side for sure, but i would also like to know more about the uzumaki's as a whole.

And its just like Kishi to throw in a twist like that. I like the idea/theory.

SilentBlade
11-11-2010, 09:58 PM
I agree, I'd like to know more too, but I think there is a reason that Naruto's past is shrouded. I think it's important that the prophecy exists about Naruto and it kind of sounds a lot like what one would expect the sage of six paths to do.

The look on Madara's unmasked face would be priceless, but if my theory were to be complete there would be a third and final series dealing with Kabuto.

Blah.
11-11-2010, 10:12 PM
I agree 10x.
There has to be a reason. In which case, Naruto would be directly linked to the origins of the ninja world..the question is how??

Third part=Naruto as Hokage+Older+End of Kabuto

On a side note, do you know how long of a gap there was between the end of naruto and the beginning of naruto shippuden?

How crazy would it be if this were true?
I mean its plausible.
Looking at japanese mythology there is a famous character named Sarutobi Sasuke. I didnt take the time to actually study what or if there is any correlation between this and Naruto, but point being, his name is Sarutobi Sasuke...Its a combination of both sides in a way. Will of fire+Uchiha.

in_cognito123
11-11-2010, 10:46 PM
this brings me to believe that maybe itchi knew that naruto was a distant realitive of nagato and the whole "where choke on a crow thing" will help in his rinnigan release.

side note: imagine sasuke in the middle of a fight naruto pulls out a rinnigan. sasuke would be like W.T.F i killed my brother for this power and u get a rinnigan out of flippin no where. GAY

Blah.
11-11-2010, 10:49 PM
Hahahahaha that would be hilarious if sasuke did that.

R3DDr460N
11-12-2010, 12:54 AM
Hi, Im new to the forum. Very interesting discussion you guys got here. I been following the manga and I've been wondering about this myself. Thanks for the perspective.

SilentBlade
11-12-2010, 06:22 AM
I agree 10x.
There has to be a reason. In which case, Naruto would be directly linked to the origins of the ninja world..the question is how??

Third part=Naruto as Hokage+Older+End of Kabuto

On a side note, do you know how long of a gap there was between the end of naruto and the beginning of naruto shippuden?

How crazy would it be if this were true?
I mean its plausible.
Looking at japanese mythology there is a famous character named Sarutobi Sasuke. I didnt take the time to actually study what or if there is any correlation between this and Naruto, but point being, his name is Sarutobi Sasuke...Its a combination of both sides in a way. Will of fire+Uchiha.

If I am corect thet gap between the two, Naruto left when he was 12 or 13 to go on a training with Jiraiya , so I mean he was a teenager when he got in there, and the training lasted for somthing like 3 years so he was 16 when he got back (I believe, its in the Manga when the 9 tails about takes over). So if the war goes on for another 3 years, and the Manga then skips ahead maybe 4 for the general rebuilding of the ninja world and what not he would be 19 by the end and 23 with the start of the next series.

Shikamaru Nara
11-12-2010, 06:23 AM
That's a good predition I was thinking the same thing too that n=maybe now that Naruto can control the 9 tails maybe he can get the rinnagan

The jutsu isn't obtainable. You can only get it through your blood.

SilentBlade
11-12-2010, 06:27 AM
The jutsu isn't obtainable. You can only get it through your blood.

I agree, it's not somthing that you can learn, must be born with it. But I believe the point in that statement was that in order to awaken it originally it comes out during situations of high stress (life threatening situations). However if Naruto were born with it, it's plausable that perhaps the 9-tails chakra was overpowering his own (as has been shown) preventing the Rinnegan from awakening.

We can already draw the lines through the Uzumaki clan to a Rinnegan user, so the blood ties can be established, now the explaination as to why it hasn't been awaken yet in Naruto could be the uncontrolled 9-tails.

With control now, I kind of wonder/theorize, that the ability to awaken the rinnegan is more plausable because in those high stress/life threatening situations, the nine-tails chakra won't take over.

Shikamaru Nara
11-12-2010, 06:38 AM
I wasn't really saying that because I didn't know, and I was just guessing. I was just saying that because of the fact that Nagato had it and somebody like Yahiko didn't.

Yahiko clearly worked harder than Nagato, and logically, if it were based on hard work, would've been the first person to obtain it.

But that explains why.

SilentBlade
11-12-2010, 06:42 AM
I wasn't really saying that because I didn't know, and I was just guessing. I was just saying that because of the fact that Nagato had it and somebody like Yahiko didn't.

Yahiko clearly worked harder than Nagato, and logically, if it were based on hard work, would've been the first person to obtain it.

But that explains why.

Completely agree with ya, Yahiko worked very hard for power, he really wanted to change the world, but as we saw even before the training in the situation with Nagato and his parents dieing, it awoke in that.

It makes me wonder if after the destruction of the village in which the Uzumaki clan resided in, if survivors (don't actually know the fate, just know its not there any more) ended up in the Hidden Rain, and if there are more?

in_cognito123
11-12-2010, 11:15 AM
Completely agree with ya, Yahiko worked very hard for power, he really wanted to change the world, but as we saw even before the training in the situation with Nagato and his parents dieing, it awoke in that.

It makes me wonder if after the destruction of the village in which the Uzumaki clan resided in, if survivors (don't actually know the fate, just know its not there any more) ended up in the Hidden Rain, and if there are more?

with that being resovled... no do all uzumaki's have a chance of awakening the rinnigan. the next line would be kushina, so does having the nine tails really nullify the rinnigan awakening.

Jakropha
11-12-2010, 11:23 AM
Um

Rinnegan = PNJ

Naruto won't get it unless Sasuke gets it.

PNJ Fairy: Just you eat your words!
Serious Side: It was meant as a joke
Lol Side: I have 10$ on the Sauce getting the Rinnegan
Serious Side: PNJ, anything to say?
PNJ Fairy: I just warp the story around me as I go, I cant see into the future...
Serious Side: So what will you do with the story as of now?
PNJ Fairy: Well, the only thing I can see happening is if Anko flashes Kabuto, he dies. But that would end the story short, so we'll just make Kabuto blind. Madara dies of a heart attack during an epic battle between Killerbee. Kabuto gets the Rinnegan. Naruto can use full Kyuubi form.
Serious Side: Not to much for the other team.
PNJ Fairy: Anko can blind people with her bewbs.
Lol Side: Man, thats Pnj right there man...

Defcon
11-12-2010, 11:52 AM
Nice theory but Madara already stated that he gave the rinnegan to Nagato. So there's no link between Senju/Uzumaki and the eyes of the older brother. Also Naruto's lifeforce/stamina rather links him to the younger brother than the older brother.

SilentBlade
11-12-2010, 01:09 PM
I think the idea behind he "gave him" the Rinnegan was he created a situation for it to manifest itself. Think about Nagato, who he was and what he was. This was a person who would never have been a shinobi or trained in a way that would have awakened it. He'd have never known he had it, thus never would have been granted its power.

I am guessing more than likely Madara created a situation in which his parents were killed, he created the situations in which Nagato was lead to the Rinnegan. If Madara would have had the Rinnegan to begin with, the power of the Rinnegan would have granted him much more during his battle with Minato and even with the Senju. Also the only way he could have "given" Nagato the Rinnegan would have been to have it in the first place. As we go through the history of the Uchiha clan, there is absolutely no mention.

Things we do know:

Nagato and Naruto are blood relatives through his mothers side (thus linking the Rinnegan)
Spiral design associated with the Uzumaki clan is also associated with the Rinnegan
Itachi states Madara is immortal (making a link to the younger son)

The theory seams very counter intuitive, because we all know the occular jutsu associated with the Uchiha clan. The statement about how distant these relationships would be to the sages son's are HUGE because of the time span, one could argue that forever. What is important is that we CAN link Naruto to a Rinnegan user, which is a direct link to the Sage of Six Paths Elder son..

Now the question remains (Since we know NOTHING about Minato) where does Minato fit in to this? what is his lineage? There is a chance that we could argue that while Kushina is directly related to the Sage's Elder son, the Minato is directly related to the Sages younger son. This of course creates an incarnation of the eyes and body of the sage of six paths, with a biju in him already.

in_cognito123
11-12-2010, 06:10 PM
Nice theory but Madara already stated that he gave the rinnegan to Nagato. So there's no link between Senju/Uzumaki and the eyes of the older brother. Also Naruto's lifeforce/stamina rather links him to the younger brother than the older brother.

i was jus going off of naruto wikia.

The Uzumaki clan (うずまき一族, Uzumaki Ichizoku) was a prominent clan in Uzushiogakure. They were distant relatives of the Senju clan and thus both clans were on good terms

SilentBlade
11-12-2010, 07:02 PM
Oh I understand, thats the consensus..but everyone is a Distant relative in some sense of the word. I am going with a different direction because I believe the Manga leads us that way. It would certainly be a twist that had its beginnings in the chapter where Nagato is shown to be related to the Uzumaki clan.

It is one of those things where people believe these things are implied but it feels like Kishi is taking us a different direction. The relation to the Sage of Six Paths is very hard to see for both the Senju and the Uchiha clan because of the time span.

DeemonFox
11-13-2010, 02:38 AM
That is actually not where I am taking my theory, I am actually going the opposite way, saying that the Uzumaki's are distant relatives of the Elder son, and the Uchiha's are distant relatives of the younger son, which kind of throws a wrench in there.

The older son was given the eyes of the sage, and the younger the body. Drawing lines from the elder son to Nagato (who has the rinnegan) and then lines from Nagato to the Uzumaki clan, we assume then that Naruto has some relation then to the elder son of the sage through his mothers side (Madara had found Nagato at the Uzumaki burial ground, and stated that he even had the signature Uzumaki red hair like Kushina).

Making the other connection from the Uchiha to the younger son, Itachi states that Madara is immortal during the fight between Itachi and Sauske, which leads me to believe that that the "longevity" of life mastered by Madara could link him to the younger, also the amount of power could as well.

It would certainly be a twist because of the actual situation where the younger son was made the sages heir and the older tried to kill him for it.

Edit: we don't know why the older son tried to kill the younger son to be the heir , meaning whether his intentions were simple to gain power or if the younger son became corrupt and evil.


Did you read the manga? Senju is descended from the younger brother and Uzumaki are their distant relatives. QED....Uzumaki are descended from the younger brother.

SilentBlade
11-13-2010, 05:51 AM
Yes I have read the Manga, we could argue a lot about those lineages between the Uzumaki and the Senju, its VERY VERY DISTANT just like the Uchiha and the older brother, it's not somthing easily trackable and wouldn't answer the question of why Nagato has the Rinnegan, and why Madara would be considered immortal, which goes against the connections between the respective brothers.

The lines can be drawn, I have read the Manga, it is IN the Manga we find the connection between Uzumaki's and Nagato, and Nagato obviously has a connection to the Elder son, thus his Jutsu. I know Madara would love to take credit for giving him the eyes, but in fact he created the oppertunity for the eyes to awaken through situations. Those eyes and that connection are a CLEAR...CLEAR connection to the elder son.

This theory isn't on the obvious things that we believe we can derive, this theory is based on the facts presented to us, and perhaps another path to the actual answer.

DeemonFox
11-13-2010, 07:30 AM
Reread chapter 462. As far as the genetics go, all of RS's descendants have the ocular jutsu genes. It's just not active in some. kishi just oversimplifying it for effect.

SilentBlade
11-13-2010, 08:09 AM
Right, it says he can see the Senju in Naruto, which is fine. I stated earlier that we don't know anything about Minato's history at all. For all we could know Minato has a connection to the younger son, direct decendant of the Senju, while Kushina has a direct line to the Elder son.

That would fit, I am not arguing that the possibility and the statement that Madara makes in that chapter isn't accurate at all. Since the Senju are local to the leaf village it really isn't a far streach to state that Minato (with what we know about him) could be a decendant of the younger son, which would tie Naruto to the younger son. However Kushina is not a native (nor is her family) of the Leaf village, which could absolutely tie her to the elder son.

It would not be a far strech then (stating Naruto is the child of prophecy) for him to be the incarnation of the sage of six paths. If it just had to do with being some how connected with the Senju then Yamato (in a sense of the word) would fit the bill.

DeemonFox
11-13-2010, 08:51 PM
Right, it says he can see the Senju in Naruto, which is fine. I stated earlier that we don't know anything about Minato's history at all. For all we could know Minato has a connection to the younger son, direct decendant of the Senju, while Kushina has a direct line to the Elder son.

That would fit, I am not arguing that the possibility and the statement that Madara makes in that chapter isn't accurate at all. Since the Senju are local to the leaf village it really isn't a far streach to state that Minato (with what we know about him) could be a decendant of the younger son, which would tie Naruto to the younger son. However Kushina is not a native (nor is her family) of the Leaf village, which could absolutely tie her to the elder son.

It would not be a far strech then (stating Naruto is the child of prophecy) for him to be the incarnation of the sage of six paths. If it just had to do with being some how connected with the Senju then Yamato (in a sense of the word) would fit the bill.

You are right about Minato, we don't know anything about the Namikaze namesake. However, if you're not arguing against the accuracy of Madara's statements in that chapter, then speculating about Kushina's origin is unfounded. She was an Uzumaki not an Uchiha. Even if naruto's lineage is not directly linked to the older brother, this does not preclude him from the Rinnegan.

zerosameri
11-13-2010, 10:00 PM
Talk about a total hype-haxx. :lol:

darkdemonofthemist
11-13-2010, 10:34 PM
Yeah but didn't Madara just say that Nagato was part of the Uzumaki clan after commenting on his red hair?

EvL j3st3r
11-13-2010, 10:45 PM
Did you read the manga? Senju is descended from the younger brother and Uzumaki are their distant relatives. QED....Uzumaki are descended from the younger brother.


Well that's what madara said but it doesn't actually make it completely true. I mean how many times in the story have we thought we knew something and then some other character is like "actually this is what really happened". Besides, If Madara's showed us one thing it's that he's a liar. lol. To me this doesn't really disprove the theory that this thread proposes.

That being said, I do still agree that Uchiha descended from older son and Senju/Uzumaki descended from younger son.

DeemonFox
11-14-2010, 02:20 AM
I just think the plot does a good enough job of explaining the link between naruto,nagato, and rinnegan.

SilentBlade
11-14-2010, 05:53 AM
It is quite true that what the we are lead to believe is that the Uzumaki can be traced to the younger son. I tosses this idea out there because some of the facts kind of lead us in another direction.

I suppose I don't discount the possiblity of either son being related, but I do enjoy looking and questioning the Uzumaki clan's possible relation to the elder son. It could be quite interesting to question whether a branch of the elder sons family split off and allied itself with the Senju early on, it would certainly then make sense of how the Uzumaki's ended up where they did, it would also tie in why the alliance was so close and solidified between the land of whirlpools and hidden leaf village. (all speculation of course for the purpose of thinking outside the box)

Also consider this, you CAN link the Uzumaki to the Senju but only through marriage not through actual direct relation. We can link Mito as an Uzumaki and first Jinchurki was the wife of the first Hokage, however giving Naruto some linkage ( I failed to see this earlier ) it still means that the Uzumaki were NOT part of the Senju directly and only through marriage. (Chapter 500)

We should then consider a few things, the ability to seal the Biju but not the ability to control it so much (i believe). The ability to control the Biju appeared to be somthing linked with the older son (as Madara was able to control the nine-tails). This is all speculation of course except for the fact that Uzumaki are only related to Senju through the marriage of Mito to the first Hokage. This leaves the possibility of the Uzumaki still having some connection to the Elder son.

DeemonFox
11-14-2010, 02:54 PM
It is quite true that what the we are lead to believe is that the Uzumaki can be traced to the younger son. I tosses this idea out there because some of the facts kind of lead us in another direction.

I suppose I don't discount the possiblity of either son being related, but I do enjoy looking and questioning the Uzumaki clan's possible relation to the elder son. It could be quite interesting to question whether a branch of the elder sons family split off and allied itself with the Senju early on, it would certainly then make sense of how the Uzumaki's ended up where they did, it would also tie in why the alliance was so close and solidified between the land of whirlpools and hidden leaf village. (all speculation of course for the purpose of thinking outside the box)

Also consider this, you CAN link the Uzumaki to the Senju but only through marriage not through actual direct relation. We can link Mito as an Uzumaki and first Jinchurki was the wife of the first Hokage, however giving Naruto some linkage ( I failed to see this earlier ) it still means that the Uzumaki were NOT part of the Senju directly and only through marriage. (Chapter 500)

We should then consider a few things, the ability to seal the Biju but not the ability to control it so much (i believe). The ability to control the Biju appeared to be somthing linked with the older son (as Madara was able to control the nine-tails). This is all speculation of course except for the fact that Uzumaki are only related to Senju through the marriage of Mito to the first Hokage. This leaves the possibility of the Uzumaki still having some connection to the Elder son.

It does say they are distant relatives. Marrying a distant cousin is not unheard of.

SilentBlade
11-14-2010, 03:45 PM
I won't disagree with you there, however it does open up possibility!

Also consider that Kushia was selected for her special chakra ability, why her over other Uzumaki clan members? I believe this could open up possibility, that the blood line at that point had some connection because prior to Mito (i believe her name was) it is questionable to trace the Uzumaki bloodline. Also Nagato connected somewhere in there as well probably through another portion of the Uzumaki clan, meaning that he was unrelated to the Senju, which leaves the Elder brother.

Kakashi Hatake_Yamato
11-14-2010, 04:08 PM
yea...i think naruto is part of the lineage of the sage of sixth paths...
wasnt kushina the granddaughter of the wife of the 1st?
and minato...there isnt much info on him...

SilentBlade
11-14-2010, 05:05 PM
The question is comes down to, is he only related to the Senju or both sides.

DeemonFox
11-15-2010, 06:05 PM
The question is comes down to, is he only related to the Senju or both sides.

I think you're asking if he is a direct descendant of both sons. There is one question that he is related to both.

SilentBlade
11-15-2010, 06:12 PM
You mean there is no question that he is related to both? That was more or less my point through the thread :p I mean the relation to the Senju was a given through the first hokage's wife. The relation to the Elder son was the more difficult thing to kind of think through with the logic.

DeemonFox
11-15-2010, 06:41 PM
If he is descended from one then he is related to both. That's like saying you're related to your father but not your father's brother.

SilentBlade
11-15-2010, 06:51 PM
hmm, in a sense of that, I suppose it makes sense. The issue though is that the occular jutsu of the Rinnegan was a special gift to the elder sons and decedants of the elder son. I don't think the gift was passable by the younger son meaning that somewhere at some point part of the elder son's clan left what would be come the Uchiha clan perhaps before it became the cursed clan.

The idea is that the Uzumaki clan could actually have those ties directly, which (while odd) is possible, and some of those factors do come into play. It kind of leads me in that direction, I don't believe there are any Senju with the occular jutsu, like there arn't any Uchiha with the Woodstyle jutsu.

DeemonFox
11-15-2010, 07:41 PM
It depends on how genes work in the narutoverse.

EvL j3st3r
11-15-2010, 07:59 PM
I think it's simply that Uzumaki is related to the younger son just like the Senju. Madara said he "gave" Nagato the Rinnegan. I figure this probably means that he gave Nagato the uchiha cells necessary to develop Rinnegan on his own. Remember that with this particular Dojutsu you don't have to be a descendant of the older son bc Rinnegan requires DNA from both blood lines.

SilentBlade
11-15-2010, 08:39 PM
I think it's simply that Uzumaki is related to the younger son just like the Senju. Madara said he "gave" Nagato the Rinnegan. I figure this probably means that he gave Nagato the uchiha cells necessary to develop Rinnegan on his own. Remember that with this particular Dojutsu you don't have to be a descendant of the older son bc Rinnegan requires DNA from both blood lines.

Unless Madara was his real dad, I can't see him "giving" it to him in the sense of cells or surgery so much as he created an oppertunity that otherwise may have never existed to awaken it. My theory, he used his sharringan to trick the leaf ninja to attack and kill Nagato's parents.

As for the relation to the Senju we establish that this already exists via the marriage of the first hokage and Kushina's grandmother. prior to that, we could argue that the Uzumaki's have no relation to the Senju, the few facts that we do know about the Uzumaki clan deal with sealing jutsu and create a direct link to the sage of six paths.

I mean based on genetics as Deemonfox states, it could be that either side can gain access to the Rinnegan, but I believe that you must be directly decendant from the elder side to gain the occular jutsu and from the youger son for his ability. We link the Senju and Uzumaki relatively late (only a few generations past Naruto), but it really feels like we can link the Uzumaki and the elder son (possibly prior to the creation of the Uchiha clan) very very early.

EvL j3st3r
11-16-2010, 06:10 PM
Unless Madara was his real dad, I can't see him "giving" it to him in the sense of cells or surgery so much as he created an oppertunity that otherwise may have never existed to awaken it. My theory, he used his sharringan to trick the leaf ninja to attack and kill Nagato's parents.

As for the relation to the Senju we establish that this already exists via the marriage of the first hokage and Kushina's grandmother. prior to that, we could argue that the Uzumaki's have no relation to the Senju, the few facts that we do know about the Uzumaki clan deal with sealing jutsu and create a direct link to the sage of six paths.

I mean based on genetics as Deemonfox states, it could be that either side can gain access to the Rinnegan, but I believe that you must be directly decendant from the elder side to gain the occular jutsu and from the youger son for his ability. We link the Senju and Uzumaki relatively late (only a few generations past Naruto), but it really feels like we can link the Uzumaki and the elder son (possibly prior to the creation of the Uchiha clan) very very early.


Maybe I'm missing something in your theory but I fail to see where Nagato has cells from both bloodlines based on what you wrote here. If you want to assume that Madara was telling the truth.......you need both.

SilentBlade
11-16-2010, 06:54 PM
Nagato doesn't have cells on both sides. I am stating that Nagato is the link in the Uzumaki clan to the elder son. Nagato was not in the Uzumaki lineage from Kushina's grandmother who married the first hokage creating a blood line from the Senju (the younger sons) to Naruto. Prior to that we could argue that the Uzumaki clan in general was already related in some way to the Elder son's lineage, perhaps prior to the Uchiha and development of the Sharingan.

EvL j3st3r
11-16-2010, 07:26 PM
Nagato doesn't have cells on both sides. I am stating that Nagato is the link in the Uzumaki clan to the elder son. Nagato was not in the Uzumaki lineage from Kushina's grandmother who married the first hokage creating a blood line from the Senju (the younger sons) to Naruto. Prior to that we could argue that the Uzumaki clan in general was already related in some way to the Elder son's lineage, perhaps prior to the Uchiha and development of the Sharingan.


That's what I'm saying. Being in the linage from the older son isn't enough according to Madora. He clearly says you need both bloodlines.

SilentBlade
11-16-2010, 07:48 PM
ugh, I am saying he has both...if Nagato is related to the elder son, then we can assume the Uzumaki clan is related to the elder son. Then we have the wife of the first hokage, with lineage to the elder son, marrying a senju with linage to the younger son..thus we have both.

EvL j3st3r
11-16-2010, 08:07 PM
Nagato was not in the Uzumaki lineage from Kushina's grandmother who married the first hokage creating a blood line from the Senju (the younger sons) to Naruto.


If your saying he's from that lineage then yes, he would have both. But here you said that he's not, so that's what confused me.

SilentBlade
11-16-2010, 08:50 PM
I meant that Nagato wasn't a son or daughter of Kushina's grandmother, meaning he didn't have a tie to the Senju. Not that he wasn't an Uzumaki, I suppose I should have been more clear.

makaveli575
11-16-2010, 08:53 PM
Nice theory but not likely way to many holes.

You mentioned Mito being Kushina's grandmother which is not true as far as we know Mito is Tsunade's grandmother. If your theory was correct Tsunade and Nawaki would both have the elder and younger son's blood and yet neither awoke the Rinnegan. Yes Nawaki died young but that still leaves Tsunade so unless the Rinngean is sexist I don't see how it would work lol.

SilentBlade
11-16-2010, 09:34 PM
Ok so here is where I get some of these things. First off in Chapter 500, it states that the Uzumaki and Senju are distant blood relatives, the only way that could be possible (if they arn't both the Senju) would be if one were related to the Elder and one the Younger son of the Sage of Six Paths.

The next thing we should consider is that Kushina had a unique chakra with the capability to surpress the Kyuubi, considering the generation gap between Mito and Kushina we can can probably draw lines there. It would also only make sense that someone who is directly related to the Hokage be allowed to be the Jinchuriki (I believe that is stated), so based on those facts we can make that assumption.

TheTruth
11-16-2010, 09:45 PM
I think this theory and the rest of silent blades predictions really might come true or partially true.

I dont think getting the rinnegan is that easy. Even though the Uzumaki clan existed during the First Hokage's times, there is no mention of anyone having a Rinnegan. Kakashi even thinks its just a mutation.

And if Mangekeyo Sharingans are so special that only 6 known people have activated it , then the rinnegan is even more special and its even more difficult to activate. Itachi even said you needed to kill your best friend in order to activate MS, or some sort emotional trauma or feeling of loss.

And if Uchihas descend from the Elder son, then why do they have Sharingans then and not Rinnegans. There has to be some back story for this, and i think its extremely likely that Uzumaki's have some deeper connections and more of a role to play.

Kishi has shown us consistently that the past is a important part of his story.

SilentBlade
11-16-2010, 09:57 PM
Nagato is an Uzumaki, we can establish a Rinnegan user to the Uzumaki clan, that is given from the Manga. Mutation or not, if it's part of your genetics, it's probable that someone in the same bloodline will gain it. We can argue that through the series it has been shown that the Kyuubi holds back Naruto's actual Chakra. That is fairly consistant, in fact I believe Yamato comments on how the Kyuubi's chakra is like a poison in a sense (the untamed chakra).

Drawing lines as I had shown earlier, the Uzumaki line can trace itself possibly back to the elder son through history, we arn't sure what happened to the Rinnegan and why the Sharingan came about, but I would guess it has somthing to do with being "the cursed clan." So right there, that establishes a Rinnegan user in the Uzumaki clan.

We can also state because it IS stated in the Manga that the Uchiha are decendant of the Elder son, and the Senju of the younger son. That is spelled out clearly in the Manga. Mito Uzumaki, wife of the first hokage, a Senju, ties the Uzumaki clan to the younger son, we can argue that Kushina is decendant because she is chosen to be the Jinchurkiki, her "unique chakra" made her the proper choice, and it would not happen outside of the Hokage's family for a Jinchuriki to be chose.

EvL j3st3r
11-17-2010, 01:20 PM
I meant that Nagato wasn't a son or daughter of Kushina's grandmother, meaning he didn't have a tie to the Senju. Not that he wasn't an Uzumaki, I suppose I should have been more clear.


Well clearly he's an Uzumaki. That's not what I was mistaken about. He could be an Uzumaki and still not be descended directly from Hashirama and his uzumaki wife.

DeemonFox
11-17-2010, 02:58 PM
Ok so here is where I get some of these things. First off in Chapter 500, it states that the Uzumaki and Senju are distant blood relatives, the only way that could be possible (if they arn't both the Senju) would be if one were related to the Elder and one the Younger son of the Sage of Six Paths.

Not necessarily true, their blood lines can branch off from the same son of the RS. That is what I'm inclined to believe because of the Uzumaki and Senju alliance. If the Uzumaki are closer in blood to the Uchiha(the older son), the alliance would probably never been formed given the bad blood. It's not impossible, but less likely.

SilentBlade
11-17-2010, 05:45 PM
Consider this, the Uchiha clan developed the Sharingan and were known as the "cursed clan" while we can argue that the Uzumaki clan who are distant relatives to the Senju clan perhaps split from the Elder son's original clan possibly due to conflict within said clan. My theory extends the idea that the "Cursed Clan" idea formulates from somthing that happened within the original elder son's clan to cause a split off between the two, and acually lost the Rinnegan.

The statement that the Senju and Uzumaki are distant relatives kind of indicates that since the Senju are direct decedant of the Younger son, that the only way the Senju and Uzumaki could be blood related would be if the Uzumaki were related to the Elder son. One could argue that perhaps the Uzumaki were already related distantly to the younger son, but then the Rinnagan would not manifest itself in the Uzumaki clan.

Edit: What I was establishing earlier Evil_Jester, was that the Uzumaki clan already had ties to the Elder son, I was not stating that Nagato was related to the first hokage, just that he had relation to the elder son. The relation of the Nagato to the Elder son, to Naruto and then Naruto to Kushina, to Mito, to the first Hokage.

EvL j3st3r
11-17-2010, 06:44 PM
Edit: What I was establishing earlier Evil_Jester, was that the Uzumaki clan already had ties to the Elder son, I was not stating that Nagato was related to the first hokage, just that he had relation to the elder son. The relation of the Nagato to the Elder son, to Naruto and then Naruto to Kushina, to Mito, to the first Hokage.[/QUOTE]


Yea, I already got your point. Good discussion.