"A shell of his former self"

[SimpleGenin]

My question is, when did Madara become a shell of his former self, according to Itachi. Was it after the first time he took control of the Nine Tails or was it at the second time?

My guess is the second time because he wouldn't have been able to fully control the nine tails the second time if he was already a shell of his former self. But the question is, what caused the him to lose his power?

If it was the first time then the question is, how was he able to control the nine tails the second time?

Both choices got me questioning.

[gama-sennin]

I am prety sure the seal that Minato used to wrest control of Kyuubi is somehow responsible for Madara being powerless....

Only missing thing(since his batttle with Minato) is Kyuubi control eye tech...

[SimpleGenin]

No I looked backed. The biggest the damaged he took was from the rasengan. Other then that, nothing.

[gama-sennin]

The seal is most important....The rasengan was awesome but, for Madara, that(physical) damage means next to nothing....

The seal forced Madara to release his control over the fox and since that time we have never seen him using that kind of technique...

[SimpleGenin]

The seal is most important....The rasengan was awesome but, for Madara, that(physical) damage means next to nothing....

The seal forced Madara to release his control over the fox and since that time we have never seen him using that kind of technique...

The seal only released Madara's control on the none tail nothing more. It was the rasengan that drastically surprised Madara. If Madara really did become a shell if his former self the second time around, their was no real reason for it because his MS wasn't damaged.

[gama-sennin]

The seal only released Madara's control on the none tail nothing more. It was the rasengan that drastically surprised Madara. If Madara really did become a shell if his former self the second time around, their was no real reason for it because his MS wasn't damaged.

Madara has dmamaged his hands more often than Sasuke has pulled haxes outta his ass. So losing a limb or two isnt fatal for him. Actually I think he may have used Izanagi to survive after Minato connected with the rasengan. With rasengan its always the size that is directly proportional to the power. Minato's rasengan was bigger and obviously better than the one Naruto used against Kabuto(which literaly feaked out Kabuto even with his healing power).

Madara ran away because his cover was blown(sort of) and he could no longer control the beast. Since then he has not tried to control any tailed beast and we have no idea if he can do that anymore...

[SimpleGenin]

Madara has dmamaged his hands more often than Sasuke has pulled haxes outta his ass. So losing a limb or two isnt fatal for him. Actually I think he may have used Izanagi to survive after Minato connected with the rasengan. With rasengan its always the size that is directly proportional to the power. Minato's rasengan was bigger and obviously better than the one Naruto used against Kabuto(which literaly feaked out Kabuto even with his healing power).

Madara ran away because his cover was blown(sort of) and he could no longer control the beast. Since then he has not tried to control any tailed beast and we have no idea if he can do that anymore...

Him having Izanagi back then is nothing but speculation. In Naruto's flash back it was very clear that Madara was some what damaged from the rasengan. Yet when we saw Madara hit with Ammy and then fell backwards into the darkness screaming only to return unscathed momentarily. With that it's safe to assume that he survived because of Izanagi but it's not really safe saying that he used it the time he fought Minato.

Point is, nothing spectacular happened to Madara that suggest he became "a shell of his former self" the second time he controlled the ninetails. Both the seal release and the rasengan were to small of a reason to suggest it caused Madara that much damage.

Perhaps he really was weakened after the fight against the 1st.

Perhaps Zetsu is really the one pulling the string. From what I observed, Tobi has been treating Zetsu more like a close partner. And their are times were Robi would report to Zetsu, an example is when Madara turned Sasuke after the fight with Itachi. Because of the way they act towards one another, it's safe to say that Zetsu now knows more about Madara then Itachi ever did.

[gama-sennin]

I think Zetsu is something that is neither human nor non-human...I think Madara somehow managed to create him outta nowhere..he has already explained that the Sage created stuff out of nothing and that stuff also includes some life forms...It is possible that he created Zetsu by his own and Hishi's cells together and then brought it to life using some technique...Zetsu has been around Madara from the very beginning and he is extremly important for whatever crappy plans Madara has got...

Anyway back to Minato Vs Madara:

Minato did defeat him in a sense as madara failed, because of Minato, to gain control of the beast and couldnt even destroy Konoha...

There was no way for Madara to use Izanagi against Hashi because he neve had both the cells at VoTE...So he must have used something else to fake his death and Genjutsu is the only thing that makes even a lick of sense...So the same gen-jutsu was, most likely, used to control the fox...

Now, you have a man who can create life(speculation) and control fox but is still powerless and you also have( the same) man who can do neither of these things...Which one is more epowerless?

[SimpleGenin]

It depends. It was in Madara's younger years ( the time he got his brothers eyes ) that he obtained a form of immortality according to Itachi. By feats yes it would seem that Madara was stronger at the time he fought Minato but even he admitted that he wasn't as strong as before. That trumps any feats by a mile.

[gama-sennin]

Of course, Hishi did something to Madara when the two were fighting each other..I mean if Madara had any brains then he would have realized that Hashi was the only one with wood...So the result was obvious....:ugeek:

[JazzJunkie4]

Perhaps he really was weakened after the fight against the 1st.



Yes Madara said so himself when talking to the kages. He said it was the battle with the first that left him a shell of his former self and that his injuries were to great. The reason why he hasn't been able to control it is because it is impossible unless the seal is weakened (which is why he was aiming for the birth of naruto). The guy loses arms and all kinds of stuff... I think a rasengan is not a big deal for him.