Debate Contest - Round One : Shikamaru Nara vs Shino Hatake

[Yellow Flash]

Sage Mode Naruto vs. Sage Mode Jiriaya

Restrictions: No Yomi Numa for Jiriaya and Naruto's SM time limit is cut in half but has two clones. No boss summons for either.

State of Mind: Blood lusted

Starting Distance: 150m

Knowledge: Manga

For those that don't know, Yomi Numa is the translation for Swamp of the Underworld.

SM stands for Sage Mode, if not blatantly obvious.

[Shikamaru Nara]

Knowledge? Forgot to ask.

[Yellow Flash]

OP has been modified.

[Shikamaru Nara]

I'm going to vouch for SM Jiraiya this time around.

Let's take a look at all of the feats for Jiraiya, and see why he wins.


Before I start, I want to wish good luck to my opponent, Shino Hatake. Good luck to you in the debate, may the best man win.

Jiraiya has few weaknesses other than the fact that Frog Song Requires prep time, so it may not be easy to pull it off. Since we are forced to choose a definite character, I'll have to assume that Jiraiya can get prep. Anything to buy him about 10 seconds.

He could probably make a few clones to distract Naruto for a few seconds, since they are SM clones, they'll have some enhanced powers, as you everybody knows. (Or at least I hope so.)

Jiraiya is a Large Building Buster, so if he can land a few direct hits, he will be able to pull off a win. (A few hits due to the fact that Naruto gets enhanced defenses so the punches may not be as effective.)

It's going to be hard for Naruto to damage Jiraiya due to the fact that there are no boss summons, and he probably can't get close to Jiraiya and hit him then walk away unscathed. Jiraiya has Large Building + endurance, so even if he does manage to land a hit, it wouldn't matter much because Jiraiya's endurance is enhanced as well as Naruto's in this fight. (Because of SM.)

Jiraiya's Supersonic, or at least he's approaching Supersonic based on feats. So enhanced speed in SM gives him an extra edge as well.

Jiraiya's strength in SM is Class 100, and Naruto's is indeed high, so power isn't much of a factor in this fight.

Well, I haven't gotten an answer to my question about knowledge, so I'm just going to give both scenarios.

(Without knowledge): Jiraiya is quite intelligent, so he should be able to figure out any hidden ploys that Naruto may have thought up, although Naruto's intelligence isn't so high, so we don't have to worry about anything.

(With knowledge): Nothing happens.

Let's take a look at some of Jiraiya's techniques now and see how they can be helpful in a bind or just to use them.

Art of the Raging Lion's Mane: Jiraiya adds chakra into his hair, allowing him to grow and manipulate it. His hair becomes as thick as a steel wire when he uses this.

This could be incredibly useful. If Naruto gets near Jiraiya for some reason, he uses this move in case he punches. He could most likely easily cloak his entire body with it, because based on what happened when he was drugged, he could cover most of his body. Based on estimations, I have come to the conclusion that he can cloak his entire body with this move, so this is his defense. Naruto can't hit him with Taijutsu.
Can probably be used as a whip as well.


Earth Release: Swamp of the Underworld: This attack summons a giant swamp from where the user is fighting, drowning the opponent in it, trapping them and sending them to the underworld. This is restricted, so it's fodder.

Fire Release: Big Flame Bullet: An enhanced version of Fire Style: Flame Bombs, enhanced with Sage chakra. (Must be in Sage Mode to use)

I'm assuming that he can do this without a Boss Summon? If he can, this move is useful because it's a long range attack. It can keep Naruto away from him.

Fire Release: Flame Bullet: Jiraiya spits out oil and then unleashes a stream of fire, causing a fireball to attack the opponent.

Same as above.

Fire Release: Toad Oil Flame Bullet: Jiraiya summons Gamabunta and uses Fire Style: Flame Bombs while Gamabunta uses Toad Oil Bombs, creating a huge fire jutsu.

Boss summons are restricted, so this is a no go.

Needle Jizo: Jiraiya's hair extends around his body and spikes up, helping to defend attacks and damaging enemies in close range.

This is the same as the Lion's Mane attack. It can be used in the same way.

Ninja Art: Toad Mouth Trap: Jiraiya summons a fire-breathing toad, which surrounds anyone in the area. Jiraiya can cause the toad's insides to grow, expand, and move how he wants.

No boss summons, so this can't be used as well.

Rasengan: A close range sphere of chakra that is formed by spinning and rotating chakra in the palm of your hand.
Could be useful in a Jutsu clash.

Sage Art: Goemon: After Jiraiya summons Ma and Pa and goes into Sage Mode, he spits a stream of oil while Pa releases wind jutsu and Ma shoots fire jutsu, creating a powerful fire combination jutsu. (Must be in Sage Mode to use)

This is useful because it could be used offensively and be used as a distraction for prep time for Frog Song.

Sage Art: Hair Needle Barrage: This attack is when Jiraiya launches needles that are sharp and powerful from his long hair. The attack is from long range. (Must be in Sage Mode to use)
Naruto probably can't evade all of the needles, so this could do significant damage.


Sage Mode: Jiraiya summons Ma and Pa, then with their help, combines natural energy and chakra to create a transformation that boosts his abilities.
Already in SM.
Shadow Clone Technique: Jiraiya creates replicas of himself to help fight alongside him.
Could be used offensively and as prep for SM.

Summoning: Food Cart Destroyer Technique: Jiraiya summons Gamahiro to crush any enemies that are beneath him.

No summons.

Summoning Technique: Allows Jiraiya to summon a variety of his animals, most or all of them which are frogs.
No summons.


Super Great Ball Rasengan: Jiraiya creates a massive Rasengan filled with Sage energy.

(Must be in Sage Mode to use)

This jutsu does significant damage if Jiraiya has prep and can get close enough to use it.

Toad Oil Bullet: Jiraiya spits oil from his mouth.

Could be useful if Naruto is charging at Jiraiya. He could slip. This would also be a good way to buy time for prep for Frog Song.

Twin Rasengan: Jiraiya forms Rasengans on both of his hands, allowing him to hit the opponent twice and with more power.

Good offensive move. Could do great damage.


With all of that said and done, I have come to the conclusion that Jiraiya has multiple ways to get prep time for Frog Song.

Naruto hasn't shown any feats in dispelling Genjutsu, so for an advanced Genjutsu like this one, there's just no way he's going to be able to escape it if he ends up getting caught. He has multiple moves that could kill Jiraiya, but none of which he could land.

The only factor in this fight that may stop Jiraiya from winning is Fuuton Rasen Shuriken. But Jiraiya could easily foil this attack by using Toad Oil Bullet: Jiraiya spits oil from his mouth. This would make Naruto slip, and the Jutsu would, logically, be dispelled because Naruto can't contain his chakra.

So, I have come to the conclusion that Sage Mode Jiraiya beats Sage Mode Naruto with relative difficulty.

Good luck, and I hope to have a great debate with you, Shino. And you'd better respond because it took me about 45 minutes to think up this post. xD

[Shikamaru Nara]

That dosesn't boost his own busting power or make it higher at all. You're implying that 5 clones increase Naruto's power? I don't think so. They're Sage Mode clones. They're individual fractions of his chakra, not power boosters. They're the same strength as Naruto is, period. Difference is, if they get hit, they're dead. It's actually only 23 minutes. The clones can easily be taken care of with Toad Oil Bullet: Jiraiya spits oil from his mouth. It doesn't matter if he can make his clones go where he wants now.

Your 60-70 foot radius means jack because they're fighting at 150 meters. 150 meters is equivalent to 492.125984 feet. He can't get Jiraiya with Shadow Clones. Bottom line.

The Katon aspect of you debate isn't really much of a problem considering that it can whipe out huge amounts of clones due to its range and size.

So? Where does he get the prep time to change? It was triggered by when he got angry, we haven't actually seen him do it by himself. But, since he recently gained control, the prep problem still stands in the way.

We don't actually know how much prep time it takes him to transform, but we do know that it will take him a long time to do it. If you're assuming he uses the clones as feints, I beg to differ. Katon could easily take care of them. Now Naruto is wide open to be attacked.

Jiraiya has an advanced variation of Rasengan. He has Super Great Ball Rasengan: Jiraiya creates a massive Rasengan filled with Sage energy, and he also has (The more important one.) Twin Rasengan: Jiraiya forms Rasengans on both of his hands, allowing him to hit the opponent twice and with more power. This means that in a jutsu clash, Jiraiya will always outright beat Naruto.

For example, if Naruto were to use a Rasengan, Jiraiya uses a Twin Rasengan, clashes his first Rasengan with Naruto's, then he hits Naruto with his second Rasengan right in the chest. GG Naruto.

Indeed I do.

I was wondering how Jiraiya would be able to handle FRS. I came up with this.

Although Naruto can throw it, it takes a lot of prep to do it as shown in Naruto Vs. Kakuzu, it was a few panels. By that time, Jiraiya has already killed Naruto with Toad Flame Bombs, etc etc, or he could just use Frog Song.

If Naruto does this, Jiraiya does it back. (To your Twin Rasengan part.)

Lol, hypersonic? He's not. He's high supersonic, maybe?

[Phoenix Wright]

Interesting.

Alright really quick random question: How hard do you think that was for me to read all of that in a few minutes? http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/lmao.gif

One question: How will this be judged though?

No one went through that, I'm pretty sure multiple people will be doing the judging, correct? Judges were just assigned and it was said it was multiple judges but it was never enforced, especially since this is the first match.

And for clarification am I a judge? I never got that far. Shika, you said "Okay" but that's as far as I know http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/lmao.gif

[Akatsuki X]

Wait, so is this round over?

[Phoenix Wright]

Nope.

[Shikamaru Nara]

Round's over. He didn't respond, so I think I win, but somebody needs to judge it.

Phoenix, you are a judge.

[Phoenix Wright]

Won't there be multiple judges doing one thing?

That's what a majority of us agreed on since we thought it was unfair last time with just one.

I'll judge this match (if you want me to), I was just wondering.

[The 1st Hokage]

Phoenix, PM me and we can discuss the match and who wins.

U c wat I did dere?

[Shikamaru Nara]

Somebody still needs to judge this.

[Phoenix Wright]

We discussed it in PM so I can post it here I guess.

So first for Shikamaru Nara, you did pretty good. Other than listing all of those attacks, since I'm quite aware of them already, you listed quite a few good reasons and the like as to why the candidate you're vouching for wins. I noticed just a couple mistakes but your biggest one was saying "No Summons," altogether, when the OP specifically stated "No boss summons," which could have given you more reason to debate. Plus near the end you started focusing on using Frog Song and nothing else, despite Jiraiya's vast amount of jutsu.

As for Shino Hatake you did pretty good too. Although you never did end up countering which gives Shika more chance for the win, you did mainly focus on listing attacks, and not why they could win or anything of the sort. Other than one paragraph at the beginning and a few sentences at the end it was just the jutsu list which I'm (somewhat) convinced that you wrote out yourself, but it doesn't really matter here. You didn't give too much reason as to why Naruto wins either.

Final Verdict (I used this when I was in the contest too http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/2z7exox.png)
Shikamaru Nara. You gave more variety and a bit more than just the jutsu list and despite your mistakes it was mainly Shino's lack of debate and reasoning that gave you the win.

Although I agree with the other contestant that Naruto in fact would be the winner (as for 1st Hokage I wouldn't know), your reasoning was better and whatever else I listed previously.

Well, congratulations, and you did good Shino.

[Shikamaru Nara]

It was a good fight Shino, you did a great job.

[Phoenix Wright]

Yeah Shino, because you won and all.


Not for Shino:
You know in case he hasn't read the judging post yet http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/pictureem0.gif

[Shikamaru Nara]

Yeah Shino, because you won and all.


Not for Shino:
You know in case he hasn't read the judging post yet http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/pictureem0.gif

DAMN! I can't believe I was knocked out again!

[Phoenix Wright]

Yeah, 1st Hokage was right when he said he'd get beaten by Kuro, first round eliminations suck!

http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/Stoneded.png

So now what needs done, aren't there new matches to be made for the other people and all?

[Akatsuki X]

When was Firties and Kuro's match?

And my match still needs doin.

[Shikamaru Nara]

Whoever wants to make them can, I'm not eligable because I still wasn't eliminated.

[Phoenix Wright]

Well I guess I can get to making whatever person's debate thread is next. Let me go check and then I can make a match for them, probably.

[Shikamaru Nara]

Okay, this can be unstickied and locked.