Connections, connections...

[deidara330]

Okay, here's what we know:

- Itachi Uchiha killed Shisui Uchiha the day before the Uchiha Massacre.
- The same Itachi Uchiha was meeting with Madara around a similar time before the Massacre, and had recieved orders from Danzo himself and the other elders to Massacre the Uchiha.
- Danzo Shimura and Madara Uchiha met on the day of the Uchiha Massacre.
- Danzo at some point collected one of Shisui's Sharingan eyes and replaced his own right eye with it.
- Madara was after Danzo's Sharingan, and he showed being upset when he learned Danzo had crushed it upon his death.
- We know from a statement Ao made that the Fourth Mizukage, Yagura, was being controlled.
- We've learned from the same Ao that the power used to control Yagura was the power of Shisui Uchiha's dojutsu, his ability to influence people's thought using his Sharingan.
- Kisame stated that Madara Uchiha was a former Mizukage. We don't know which one.
- There are rumors that the Akatsuki was founded in the Mist Village.
- We don't know what happened to the eye of Shisui's that Danzo didn't take. (Or couldn't take.)
- Yagura's Biju, the Three-Tails, is the only Biju known not to have a host from the start of Shippuden.
- Zabuza Momochi attempted an assasination of the Mizukage of his time. This attempt failed, according to Kakashi Hatake.
- Zabuza Momochi and Kisame Hoshigaki were in the same group, which was known as the Seven Swordsmen of the Mist.
- It should be noted when Yagura was the Mizukage, the Hidden Mist was known as the Bloody Mist for the passing exam of its academy, which was for a student to kill his fellow students in cold blood.
- Kabuto Yakushi summoned from the dead a person who Madara was shocked to discover Kabuto could summon.
- This person was probably shorter than Madara, since in one panel we see the coffin in front of Madara and we see no part of the person inside it, despite Madara being hunched over.
- Madara said fighting would weaken him, but never said it would kill, defeat, or destroy him.

What I take from this is, Madara has Shisui's other eye. After the Uchiha Massacre, he went to the Village Hidden in the Mist and used the Sharingan to control Yagura. Kisame was at some point made privy to this, and when he refered to Madara as the Mizukage, he didn't mean that Madara was really the Mizukage, he just meant that Madara was really the one in control the whole time Yagura was Mizukage. I imagine Madara wanted to go to war with someone, or Madara wanted to use the Three-Tails to destroy someplace. He probably had some evil plan involving killing someone or destroying something, as most evil plans do. And for whatever reason, his evil plans were stopped. Now Zabuza comes in. Zabuza somehow learned from Kisame that Madara was controlling Yagura, due to his connections to Kisame and Kisame's connections to Madara. I'm betting he held a personal grudge against Madara. During Yagura's reign, the only way to pass the Academy was to kill your fellow sudents in cold blood. It's possible that Zabuza was forced to kill his friends in that exam, and always held a grudge against Yagura. If or when he found out it was Madara, he would only become more enraged. He and a small group of others tried to assasinate Madara and/or foil his evil plans, and from the fact that the Three-Tails roamed freely at the beginning of Shippuden, I'm betting they succeeded in at least stopping him. According to Kakashi, Zabuza's attempts to kill the Mizukage failed, but this doesn't make sense to me considering that if Madara were in control, he would never willingly release control for what he could use it for. He could've been forced to leave because something had happened to his Sharingan, he was afraid Zabuza could come back with his gang and kill him in his weakened state, Yagura wouldn't live long enough for Madara to continue using him as a puppet, etcetera. For whatever reason, Madara left. Mei Terumi became the Fifth Mizukage. However, rewind a little bit. There are rumors that Akatsuki was founded in the Mist Village. Even though Pain was the supposed leader, we all know that Madara was pulling the strings. Itachi could've come with Madara to the Mist and joined Akatsuki, and they could've recruited Kisame there.

Now, who did Kabuto summon in that coffin? I'm guessing either Yagura or Shisui. Everything is really speculation at this point, so something could've gone down between Madara and Yagura, creating the special circumstance in which Madara would be shocked to discover someone could bring him back to life. His shock may have merely been that Kabuto knew his connection to Yagura, but for whatever reason, he was initially shocked. It could just as well be Shisui Uchiha. Assuming Madara has Shisui's eye, fighting a zombie Shisui could very well weaken him because his opponent is the true owner of his eye.

And let's not forget Itachi's gift to Naruto. He could've known that Madara had Shisui's eye, that Madara had been in the Mist Village for some time, there's a whole lot he could've known about Madara. And he was best friends with Shisui. Heck, this could mean Shisui really did die willingly. Itachi could've explained the whole situation to Shisui, and Shisui and himself could've agreed to let Itachi kill Shisui so Itachi could have the Mangekyo and to allow both Danzo and Madara to take one of Shisui's eyes. Knowing about the dojutsu of Shisui's eyes, he could've given Naruto something to counteract it or nullify it's effects. I'm betting that Shisui used the subtle power of Shisui's eye to control Sasuke from the moment they met in the cave, and ever since his grip on Sasuke has become tighter. It is possible that Sasuke really did join Akatsuki of his on free will, but this would be a way for Kishi to retcon Sasuke into a good guy for the plot to allow Sasuke and Naruto to fight Madara together when the time came. Itachi could've known Madara would use Shisui's Sharingan on Sasuke and control him, and Itachi gave Naruto the key to destroying the Sharingan's effect. Thus Sasuke turns on Madara with Naruto and they fight him as a team. Besides, Itachi ought to have known there probably wasn't a ninja alive who could kill Madara. Alone, that is. Naruto and Sasuke have become so powerful, that it's possible their combined powers could destroy Madara Uchiha once and for all.

What do you think about all this?

[Wind Style Naruto]

.....that...was amazing....everything all connected well and it all made sense. WEL DONE!!!!:p:p

I feel Itachi's gift is something that can counterattack genjutsu and dojutsu of the Sharingan. Maybe Madara really is placing Sasuke under a genjutsu where he could feel enraged by the truth and want revenge instead of wanting what his older brother, Itachi wants.

[deidara330]

.....that...was amazing....everything all connected well and it all made sense. WEL DONE!!!!:p:p

I feel Itachi's gift is something that can counterattack genjutsu and dojutsu of the Sharingan. Maybe Madara really is placing Sasuke under a genjutsu where he could feel enraged by the truth and want revenge instead of wanting what his older brother, Itachi wants.Yeah. It seems out of character for Sasuke to do every single thing Madara wants him too, occasionally it doesn't even coincide with his own personal goals. And Sasuke never killed anyone until after he met Madara.

[Red]

I agree with you fully, after reading this. If Kabuto really did summon Shisui or Yagura, it could change the entire plot.

[Parak111]

Okay, here's what we know:

- Itachi Uchiha killed Shisui Uchiha the day before the Uchiha Massacre.
- The same Itachi Uchiha was meeting with Madara around a similar time before the Massacre, and had recieved orders from Danzo himself and the other elders to Massacre the Uchiha.
- Danzo Shimura and Madara Uchiha met on the day of the Uchiha Massacre.
- Danzo at some point collected one of Shisui's Sharingan eyes and replaced his own right eye with it.
- Madara was after Danzo's Sharingan, and he showed being upset when he learned Danzo had crushed it upon his death.
- We know from a statement Ao made that the Fourth Mizukage, Yagura, was being controlled.
- We've learned from the same Ao that the power used to control Yagura was the power of Shisui Uchiha's dojutsu, his ability to influence people's thought using his Sharingan.
- Kisame stated that Madara Uchiha was a former Mizukage. We don't know which one.
- There are rumors that the Akatsuki was founded in the Mist Village.
- We don't know what happened to the eye of Shisui's that Danzo didn't take. (Or couldn't take.)
- Yagura's Biju, the Three-Tails, is the only Biju known not to have a host from the start of Shippuden.
- Zabuza Momochi attempted an assasination of the Mizukage of his time. This attempt failed, according to Kakashi Hatake.
- Zabuza Momochi and Kisame Hoshigaki were in the same group, which was known as the Seven Swordsmen of the Mist.
- It should be noted when Yagura was the Mizukage, the Hidden Mist was known as the Bloody Mist for the passing exam of its academy, which was for a student to kill his fellow students in cold blood.
- Kabuto Yakushi summoned from the dead a person who Madara was shocked to discover Kabuto could summon.
- This person was probably shorter than Madara, since in one panel we see the coffin in front of Madara and we see no part of the person inside it, despite Madara being hunched over.
- Madara said fighting would weaken him, but never said it would kill, defeat, or destroy him.

What I take from this is, Madara has Shisui's other eye. After the Uchiha Massacre, he went to the Village Hidden in the Mist and used the Sharingan to control Yagura. Kisame was at some point made privy to this, and when he refered to Madara as the Mizukage, he didn't mean that Madara was really the Mizukage, he just meant that Madara was really the one in control the whole time Yagura was Mizukage. I imagine Madara wanted to go to war with someone, or Madara wanted to use the Three-Tails to destroy someplace. He probably had some evil plan involving killing someone or destroying something, as most evil plans do. And for whatever reason, his evil plans were stopped. Now Zabuza comes in. Zabuza somehow learned from Kisame that Madara was controlling Yagura, due to his connections to Kisame and Kisame's connections to Madara. I'm betting he held a personal grudge against Madara. During Yagura's reign, the only way to pass the Academy was to kill your fellow sudents in cold blood. It's possible that Zabuza was forced to kill his friends in that exam, and always held a grudge against Yagura. If or when he found out it was Madara, he would only become more enraged. He and a small group of others tried to assasinate Madara and/or foil his evil plans, and from the fact that the Three-Tails roamed freely at the beginning of Shippuden, I'm betting they succeeded in at least stopping him. According to Kakashi, Zabuza's attempts to kill the Mizukage failed, but this doesn't make sense to me considering that if Madara were in control, he would never willingly release control for what he could use it for. He could've been forced to leave because something had happened to his Sharingan, he was afraid Zabuza could come back with his gang and kill him in his weakened state, Yagura wouldn't live long enough for Madara to continue using him as a puppet, etcetera. For whatever reason, Madara left. Mei Terumi became the Fifth Mizukage. However, rewind a little bit. There are rumors that Akatsuki was founded in the Mist Village. Even though Pain was the supposed leader, we all know that Madara was pulling the strings. Itachi could've come with Madara to the Mist and joined Akatsuki, and they could've recruited Kisame there.

Now, who did Kabuto summon in that coffin? I'm guessing either Yagura or Shisui. Everything is really speculation at this point, so something could've gone down between Madara and Yagura, creating the special circumstance in which Madara would be shocked to discover someone could bring him back to life. His shock may have merely been that Kabuto knew his connection to Yagura, but for whatever reason, he was initially shocked. It could just as well be Shisui Uchiha. Assuming Madara has Shisui's eye, fighting a zombie Shisui could very well weaken him because his opponent is the true owner of his eye.

And let's not forget Itachi's gift to Naruto. He could've known that Madara had Shisui's eye, that Madara had been in the Mist Village for some time, there's a whole lot he could've known about Madara. And he was best friends with Shisui. Heck, this could mean Shisui really did die willingly. Itachi could've explained the whole situation to Shisui, and Shisui and himself could've agreed to let Itachi kill Shisui so Itachi could have the Mangekyo and to allow both Danzo and Madara to take one of Shisui's eyes. Knowing about the dojutsu of Shisui's eyes, he could've given Naruto something to counteract it or nullify it's effects. I'm betting that Shisui used the subtle power of Shisui's eye to control Sasuke from the moment they met in the cave, and ever since his grip on Sasuke has become tighter. It is possible that Sasuke really did join Akatsuki of his on free will, but this would be a way for Kishi to retcon Sasuke into a good guy for the plot to allow Sasuke and Naruto to fight Madara together when the time came. Itachi could've known Madara would use Shisui's Sharingan on Sasuke and control him, and Itachi gave Naruto the key to destroying the Sharingan's effect. Thus Sasuke turns on Madara with Naruto and they fight him as a team. Besides, Itachi ought to have known there probably wasn't a ninja alive who could kill Madara. Alone, that is. Naruto and Sasuke have become so powerful, that it's possible their combined powers could destroy Madara Uchiha once and for all.

What do you think about all this?


No wonder. Now it makes sense. He can't just control Yagura just by holding the Sharingan in his hand...so that means that Madara has implanted it?! This reveals the mystery now as to why Madara's Sharingan in his right eye that can be seen through the hole is a normal Sharingan, because we know that Madara possesed the EMS.

It's a normal Sharingan because it's Shisui's Sharingan...

[gama-sennin]

But there is only one problem with this

Zabuza at the time of his death was at least 26 years old. Now he passed academy when he was 9 years old.

This leaves a gap of fifteen years. When zabuza fought kakashi naruto was at most 13 years old(probably 12). This puts the incident involving zabuza 2 years before kyuubi incident.

Uchiha massacre/shisui's death happened after kyuubi incident, most probably 6/7 years after that.

So it means that its impossible for madara to possess Shisui's eye and manipulate Yagura UNLESS shisui himself was the one doing that and he was already being manipulated by Madara.

[deidara330]

But there is only one problem with this

Zabuza at the time of his death was at least 26 years old. Now he passed academy when he was 9 years old.

This leaves a gap of fifteen years. When zabuza fought kakashi naruto was at most 13 years old(probably 12). This puts the incident involving zabuza 2 years before kyuubi incident.

Uchiha massacre/shisui's death happened after kyuubi incident, most probably 6/7 years after that.

So it means that its impossible for madara to possess Shisui's eye and manipulate Yagura UNLESS shisui himself was the one doing that and he was already being manipulated by Madara.Where are you getting this info from? I think there was at least a few years between the time Naruto met Zabuza and the time of the Uchiha Massacre. Someone (Either Madara or Itachi) said suspicions of the Uchiha grew after the Kyuubi Attack, so I don't think it was too long after that the Uchiha Massacre occured. I believe Naruto and Sasuke are supposed to be 12 at the beginning of the series. It was years prior to the start of the series that the Uchiha Massacre happened, in that time Madara could've taken Shisui's eye and ran over to the Mist to control Yagura. Then Zabuza attempts his assasinations, fails, becomes a rogue, and the rest is history. I think Madara manipulating Shisui manipulating Yagura is a bit complicated.

[gama-sennin]

Where are you getting this info from? I think there was at least a few years between the time Naruto met Zabuza and the time of the Uchiha Massacre. Someone (Either Madara or Itachi) said suspicions of the Uchiha grew after the Kyuubi Attack, so I don't think it was too long after that the Uchiha Massacre occured. I believe Naruto and Sasuke are supposed to be 12 at the beginning of the series. It was years prior to the start of the series that the Uchiha Massacre happened, in that time Madara could've taken Shisui's eye and ran over to the Mist to control Yagura. Then Zabuza attempts his assasinations, fails, becomes a rogue, and the rest is history. I think Madara manipulating Shisui manipulating Yagura is a bit complicated.

Actually this is the probable timeline. I mean if madara was controlling yagura with shisui's eye then it has to be after his death which gives us a period of 5-6 years before the start of series(naruto 12 years old). So the event of madara controlling yagura with shisui's sharingan is possible only after the uchiha massacre. But zabuza passed out of academy before Kyuubi incident so it kinda rules out Yagura being controlled by Shisui's eye at that time.

But I have another theory that involves shisui and Madara. What if shisui was the one who attacked Itachi for MS and ended up dying instead? Itachi's statement about "people not understanding the depth of his powers" also makes a lot of sense that way.

What if shisui was actively helping madara all the time, including the kyuubi incident?

[That Dude]

Gucciness.

[deidara330]

Actually this is the probable timeline. I mean if madara was controlling yagura with shisui's eye then it has to be after his death which gives us a period of 5-6 years before the start of series(naruto 12 years old). So the event of madara controlling yagura with shisui's sharingan is possible only after the uchiha massacre. But zabuza passed out of academy before Kyuubi incident so it kinda rules out Yagura being controlled by Shisui's eye at that time.

But I have another theory that involves shisui and Madara. What if shisui was the one who attacked Itachi for MS and ended up dying instead? Itachi's statement about "people not understanding the depth of his powers" also makes a lot of sense that way.

What if shisui was actively helping madara all the time, including the kyuubi incident?Alright, I see the hole in my theory. No way could Madara have been controling Yagura so completely without Shisui's eye, which he couldn't have obtained before the Kyuubi Attack, which happened after Zabuza passed the graduation exam to kill his comrades, which Yagura was probably Kage during. But I don't think Shisui tried to kill Itachi, I really think Itachi was the killer. I mean, Danzo ended up with one of Shisui's eyes, Madara had the other, and Itachi had connections to both of them prior to the Massacre. It's likely that he killed Shisui so that Danzo and Madara could each get an eye, and considering the rumors that Akatsuki was founded in the Mist Village, it's entirely possible that Itachi and Madara left for the Mist after the Massacre. Maybe Madara took control of Yagura's body or something. I mean, Kisame did know Madara was a Mizukage, but Kisame only recognized Madara once he took his mask off. If Madara had the appearance or body of Yagura, Kisame could recognize him as a former Mizukage.

[Wind Style Naruto]

Gucciness.

....GUCCINESS:(:(

Anyway the only thing we can agree on was that Yagura was being controlled by someone and Zabuza and tries to assasinate the Mizukage so it must be around Yagura's reign as Mizukage. Zabuza probably was mad at Yagura for what he done to the village and making him kill his friends during the academy graduation ceremony. We left out another mild factor that may affect a lot in this theory, Haku. Zabuza met Haku after he left the village after the failed assassination attempt.

[gama-sennin]

But I don't think Shisui tried to kill Itachi, I really think Itachi was the killer. I mean, Danzo ended up with one of Shisui's eyes, Madara had the other, and Itachi had connections to both of them prior to the Massacre. It's likely that he killed Shisui so that Danzo and Madara could each get an eye, and considering the rumors that Akatsuki was founded in the Mist Village, it's entirely possible that Itachi and Madara left for the Mist after the Massacre. Maybe Madara took control of Yagura's body or something. I mean, Kisame did know Madara was a Mizukage, but Kisame only recognized Madara once he took his mask off. If Madara had the appearance or body of Yagura, Kisame could recognize him as a former Mizukage.

But then again Akatsuki was already formed when Itachi joined them. I am not sure but I think Orochimaru joined akatsuki before Itachi.

If Shisui was the one helping madara all the time then it is possible that he was helping madara under assumption that he will help the uchihas in the coup. This again fits with madara's personality. Also Shisui's body was found so its not possible that his eyes were stolen immediately after his death, otherwise someone from uchiha clan would have noticed that.

But madara taking control of yagura's body does make sense. Its a possibility.

[Wind Style Naruto]

But then again Akatsuki was already formed when Itachi joined them. I am not sure but I think Orochimaru joined akatsuki before Itachi.

If Shisui was the one helping madara all the time then it is possible that he was helping madara under assumption that he will help the uchihas in the coup. This again fits with madara's personality. Also Shisui's body was found so its not possible that his eyes were stolen immediately after his death, otherwise someone from uchiha clan would have noticed that.

But madara taking control of yagura's body does make sense. Its a possibility.

Maybe Danzo took Shusui's body and taking his eye.

Madara was an Mizukage of the Mist Village once and Kisame knew him as Mizukage so he must of met Madara when he was the Mizukage, during his lifetime. Since Kisame was 29 during Part 1 he must have seen Madara when he was in his teens or childhood so Madara must have been Mizukage during Kisame's birth to early teens then Yagura became Mizukage or maybe Madara was the first Mizukage but due to his long age span he must have still been around and was still recognized as the first Mizukage or second Mizukage. Yagura must have been selected as Mizukage when he must have been young like Gaara maybe like 15-16 since in an art-work of him he seems very young and if Zabuza was 26 before he died and if he was like 8-9 years old during the academy graduation ceremony that must have been when Yagura was in reign or started in reign. If Haku was 15 when he died then he must have met Zabuza when he was like 7-8 meaning Zabuza must have met him when he was like 18-19 years old and he was part of the ANBU of the Mist Village and he must of attempted to assassinate the Mizkage when he was part of the Seven Swordsman of the Mist when he was 20-21 along side Kisame and Raiga and not to long after he must attempted to assassinate Yagura. Kisame must be older than Yagura but Yagura is older than Zabuza. Anyway Yagura's reign must have been like 15 years since Zabuza was 8 during the Blood Mist Academy Ritual and if Zabuza left the Mist Village after the failed assassination attempt he must have been like 21-22 since Haku was like 10 years old(which was around the time Haku met Kimimaru when his clan was still around). Since Mei recently became Mizukage during the time skip then Yagura must of died during Part 1 or during the time skip so he must have been like 30 or in his late 20's too. He even died because the Three Tails was extracted from him. But now the main question is why was the Three Tails extracted from him and does it have anything to do with the Akatsuki?