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View Full Version : Debate Contest: Final Round: Kuromaki & Sasuke Vs. Akatsuki X Vs. Phoenix Wright


Shikamaru Nara
08-05-2010, 07:42 AM
This is the final rounds, I just wanted to make this so Firsties didn't steal it from me! Anyway, to the match.

Before we start the match, let's go over the rules for this battle. Since it's a three way battle, there will be a three way debate. (Obviously.) But here's where it starts get get a little tricky.

-You must make it clear who you think wins the match.
-You have to make your first post at least 1,000 characters.
-You will have only 2 days to respond. If there are no responses to the debate within 2 days, the debate will be deemed as over. So get in as much as you want as fast as you can.

You can just post 1 post or make a whole arsenal. Try to prove other debaters wrong as frequently as possible, as it will add points to you and your team and help you win.

Minato Vs. Itachi


No Susano'o. Itachi is healthy meaning his eye sight is good. Minato is healthy too. They both also have full knowledge. Speed equalized.

If you want to help me if this is a bit of a stomp, please post suggestions. This may or may not be a good battle, I was on the fence, so please do say if it is.

Phoenix Wright
08-05-2010, 08:29 AM
Heh, Minato who has barely any feats vs Itachi. This is gonna be fun.

The "Must be 1,000 Characters" rule? I lol at that.

Let's get started. If I post and someone else posts before me which is a high possibility, I'm gonna be mad.

Good luck to both of you guys, especially Kuro `<3
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This shall be discussed in the same style as my previous match, as it is easier to keep organized and the like.

1). Speed. Minato would surely have this in the bag, aside from Flying Thunder God he ended up saving Kushina countless times, including almost getting crushed by the Kyuubi. Itachi, hasn't shown many impressive speed feats that I can remember, other than fighting on par with Sasuke and managing to keep up with him for quite awhile, plus the fact that he was leaning towards the fact that Sasuke was going to beat him, and Itachi was going to let him. Kakashi, with sharingan out also didn't notice Itachi perform handsigns as well. Since the default rules are bloodlust the question remains if Minato can get to him with his speed and use any of his techniques on him before Itachi fights back, which probably wouldn't happen.

2). Power. Itachi doesn't rely on physical power and really, Minato hasn't shown any physical fighting either, other than a Rasengan, but that is a technique and doesn't belong in the power-section of my post. Itachi did do some pretty decent damage to Sasuke however, where Minato is still unknown at this point as to how strong he is. If it somehow comes down to hand to hand combat, from what Itachi has shown he'd take it.

3). Notes. The first notes section, this describes what has went down so far and discusses what I talked about. It also explains some miscellaneous items, regarding Minato's kunai and such.

Minato's standard equipment includes his kunai in which he can use FTG, so he should have it with him. Shall he not, it may or may not change much. Shall he have it: Minato could use it to his advantage, although Itachi will surely know what to go for with full knowledge. Minato figured out the mechanics behind Madara's intangibility and Kakashi's Raikiri at nearly first glance, within a few seconds. He should be able to figure "When I throw this kunai", figuring Itachi knows about his technique or not, "Then I'm gonna have to be careful if he goes after me." Or something along those lines.

Shall he not: His speed was still pretty impressive without Flying Thunder God, and as I listed in the speed section he saved Kushina, and also managed to grab Naruto from Madara. What he'll end up doing with his speed will be discussed later in the next sections.

4). Techniques and Jutsu. Starting with Itachi, this describes the jutsu and/or techniques each of the two know, and what it will do in the fight, etc.

Itachi- Focuses mainly on Genjutsu. With Susano'o banned its a large disadvantage for him, but it may have just been overkill with it anyway.

Tsukiyomi: With full knowledge this most likely won't do much. If Minato does get caught in it however, then its over, as Minato hasn't shown any Genjutsu resistance and probably would end up like Kakashi.

Amaterasu: This is probably one of Itachi's best bets, although it did burn on Karin for sometime, and still didn't end up killing her. If he manages to follow Minato with his eyes and manage to be fast enough to do so, if it stays on Minato long enough it probably will end up killing him, although Minato has full knowledge on this as well, and could do a variety of things, including rub against Itachi and spread it onto himself, although he could just reverse the effect, but he never showed the ability to do so, only Sasuke when he was trying to dispel it when Karin was hit.

Susano'o: Without it, he can't use it of course.

Now for Minato.

Flying Thunder God: Minato's most basic technique. He throws his specialized Kunai, or uses his special tags and teleports to its location. He could surely use it to his advantage, even with Itachi's knowledge, it may be too fast for him and if it is, then Minato would surely take this. Speed does play a huge factor in fights, even with the small amount of feats Minato has.

Space/Time Barrier: When I saw it, it was pretty interesting I have to admit. This was capable of transporting something as large as a Kyuubi menacing ball to a far off distance. This could be used to send away things like Fireballs, or most likely Amaterasu, deeming it useless. Minato put it up pretty fast, as he is the speedy type, and transported the MB before it wreaked havoc on the village.

Kuchiyose no jutsu. Summoning. He can clearly use this to his advantage, one way or the other, granted the summons can do a crapload to Itachi on their own. He can summon frogs, Gamabunta pretty much as he hasn't shown feats for anyone else.

Now seeing as we've added a potential character, we can discuss him.

Gamabunta: A giant frog. Simple enough. It rivaled the size of the Kyuubi who was an extremely large beast.

He has water release techniques and can shoot giant water-balls, similar to a fireball, at his opponents. He is very large and so is the attack, but its most likely Itachi will be able to dodge.

He can also shoot oil from his mouth, but whether that would matter or not, is probably a "not."

The biggest fact, (no pun intended) is that he's huge. He could simply crush Itachi, shall he feel the need. Hey, guess what? Shall he be summoned, he does follow Minato's orders, plus the fact that the default rules show there's bloodlust. His sword as also huge, its a regular Katana, but to scale with his size.

Tsunade managed to catch it and with her lack of speed feats its gonna be debatable on whether he can dodge, but surely not forever.

Upon being summoned its sure Minato will say beware of being caught in his genjutsu, if Itachi has the ability to turn Gamabunta against him, that'd be a problem however, Itachi hasn't showed the ability to do so. Even if he could, as I said, Minato would say something.

4) Notes a. Regarding Bloodlust and Knowledge.

Itachi and Minato both have full knowledge as stated by Shikamaru. In this case they both know what techniques they are going to use, but as demonstrated by the Raikage, Sharingan has a limit to how fast it can move. He moved a lot faster than Sasuke could manage to see, and he dodged Amaterasu. Why Minato shouldn't be able to do it, especially with FTG is beyond me. Plus they have full knoweldge.

I talked a bit above about knowledge as well. They do have knowledge and if Minato throws his kunai, Itachi will most likely go after it, which is what Minato most likely will figure. Itachi knows he also has the capability to summon Gamabunta so he'll be ready.

But it goes both ways, Minato also knows what Itachi can do, so he'll steer clear of most of what he can do, as mostly everything is genjutsu and he knows what Itachi's capable of he can stay away and never get caught in Genjutsu. Plus if he stands on Gamabunta, he could be too high up to see Itachi and his eyes.

Regarding bloodlust, here's what could go down.

Most simple answer: With Susano'o banned Itachi goes for Amaterasu and/or Tsukiyomi. Minato throws a kunai and uses FTG, and attempts to Rasengan. Since Minato teleports during, in my opinion it'd be a bit fast for Itachi's eyes to handle, and with full knowledge, Minato would know his best technique, and what he plans on doing. He could continue to do that, as really its all he's shown that's an offensive feat, plus he can warp away any flames that get thrown at him whether it be Amaterasu or Fireball jutsu.

5). The Final Verdict. I was planning on discussing more, although I do plan on countering what gets posted.

The final verdict, that of which with full knowledge, and bloodlust, has the highest chance of winning going by what I have discussed, is Minato.

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Good luck guys, now to see if there's a post before mine. =)

EDIT: xD That wasn't 1,000 characters, I just counted, it was over 1,000 Frigging words O_O

The 1st Hokage
08-05-2010, 10:57 AM
Damnit Shikamaru, you made it before I could suggest we make it a 1v1v1 fight. 3 fighters/teams for the 3 debaters to debate on.

Phoenix Wright
08-05-2010, 12:12 PM
And I already posted so if any of you guys change the match I'm gonna be pissed. xD

Although that did take like 10 Minutes only and it's not that hard to write 1,600 words imo.

Shikamaru Nara
08-05-2010, 01:59 PM
Damnit Shikamaru, you made it before I could suggest we make it a 1v1v1 fight. 3 fighters/teams for the 3 debaters to debate on.
Actually, I had trouble with that idea, because what if somebody didn't pick a fighter? It's bound to happen. 1v1 is the safest way to do it.

Sasuke
08-05-2010, 03:16 PM
Okay I guess I am the next one to post... here I go:

Overall Knowledge:

Since Minato has full knowledge, he will know how to dodge Amaterasu and know how to not get caught in Tsukiyomi. The same goes for Itachi as he will know how about Minato's Flying Thunder God Technique, although he probably not be fast enough to dodge it.

Speed:

Since the Speed is equalized there can be none that are faster than the other. Although, the Flying Thunder God Technique could prove to be a way around of this because it is a technique that does not involve speed, but teleportation.

Taijutsu:

As for Taijutsu, Minato hasn't shown much Taijutsu Feats, same with Itachi, so hand to hand combat should be out of the question in this match.

Ninjutsu:

Ninjutsu is going to be the most used in this battle, as for Minato, he will most likely try to use Flying Thunder God and/or use Rasengan. Although if he misses, Itachi could easily use Amaterasu on Minato leading it to Minato's defeat, although this should be avoided because he has shown to throw accurately when handling his special Kunai.

Minato could also Summon Gamabunta to aid him in the battle, although he could probably be taken out with Amaterasu. Gamabunta could prove as a distraction towards Itachi which would then allow Minato to use a technique on him.

Genjutsu:

Genjutsu won't be a big factor in this battle because Minato will have previous knowledge of how Itachi's Genjutsu work how to avoid them, and as for Itachi, he doesn't need to worry because Minato doesn't use Genjutsu.

Overall Decision:


This match was a hard one to debate over, but my partner and I have come to the conclusion that the winner would be Minato due to his knowledge of Itachi's Genjutsu, Flying Thunder God Technique, and that the match is blood lusted.

Phoenix Wright
08-05-2010, 03:59 PM
Okay I guess I am the next one to post... here I go:

Overall Knowledge:

Since Minato has full knowledge, he will know how to dodge Amaterasu and know how to not get caught in Tsukiyomi. The same goes for Itachi as he will know how about Minato's Flying Thunder God Technique, although he probably not be fast enough to dodge it.

Speed:

Since the Speed is equalized there can be none that are faster than the other. Although, the Flying Thunder God Technique could prove to be a way around of this because it is a technique that does not involve speed, but teleportation.

Taijutsu:

As for Taijutsu, Minato hasn't shown much Taijutsu Feats, same with Itachi, so hand to hand combat should be out of the question in this match.

Ninjutsu:

Ninjutsu is going to be the most used in this battle, as for Minato, he will most likely try to use Flying Thunder God and/or use Rasengan. Although if he misses, Itachi could easily use Amaterasu on Minato leading it to Minato's defeat, although this should be avoided because he has shown to throw accurately when handling his special Kunai.

Minato could also Summon Gamabunta to aid him in the battle, although he could probably be taken out with Amaterasu. Gamabunta could prove as a distraction towards Itachi which would then allow Minato to use a technique on him.

Genjutsu:

Genjutsu won't be a big factor in this battle because Minato will have previous knowledge of how Itachi's Genjutsu work how to avoid them, and as for Itachi, he doesn't need to worry because Minato doesn't use Genjutsu.

Overall Decision:


This match was a hard one to debate over, but my partner and I have come to the conclusion that the winner would be Minato due to his knowledge of Itachi's Genjutsu, Flying Thunder God Technique, and that the match is blood lusted.

Hey, that sounds a lot like my post,even the same layout! (Except with less words) >_< My typing rules all `:)

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1) Exactly. Except mine had more words. (And feats I think)
2)Exactly, except mine had more feats. (And words xD)
3)Somewhat alike. Countah time! (and mine still had more words)

If Itachi manages to dodge it and attempts to use Ammy, being the intelligent guy Minato is as I explained in my first post, he should be aware of Amaterasu, and be ready to counter. Since Itachi also has full knowledge he'll be ready to go after the Kunai that gets thrown as well, which, being smart, Minato should be ready for.

Gamabunta, exactly what I said too except more feats/choices and as you guessed... Words.

4)Exactly, and since Minato has full knowledge, then he should be able to avoid it, as you vaguely described, and I vividly described. With more words.

5)Yeah, Final Verdict sounds cooler though. And again, just what I said. Except with more words. Well you might have had more words in the Final Verdict part but I dunno.

All in all: You said the basis of what I said, except I explained quite a bit more into detail, and, well (zomg here comes the exciting part): Had more words. =D

I've been holding in this "Rofl" This entire post.

Rofl.

Kuromaki
08-05-2010, 04:20 PM
Minato wins. I'mma do this organizing thing too.

Knowledge & Intelligence: With full knowledge, Minato will know about Itachi's genjutsu, so he can figure out a way to avoid it. He was able to figure out Tobi's technique and Kakashi's Chidori after seeing them once, and figuring out a way to avoid Itachi's genjutsu when he has boss summons and Flying Thunder God is possible. He could also figure out ways around Itachi's other techniques.

Itachi will know about Flying Thunder God but he can't stop kunais being thrown around the battlefield. He also can't stop being crushed by a boss toad, although he can try to kill the toad, which would only take his chakra, and in the meantime Minato could be attacking.

Speed: Speed is equalized so that's not a problem, but Itachi should have better reaction speed thanks to the Sharingan, and his reaction feats in his fight with Sasuke. However, Minato managed to react to Tobi's warping and attacks from the Kyubi, as well as save a Chidori-using Kakashi, and his son from exploding tags, so it's safe to say that he has good reaction speed as well. Also, I doubt Sharingan could track Minato when he teleports, because it's instant.

Strength & Durability (Taijutsu): Neither Minato nor Itachi have shown good strength feats, and Minato has shown few durability feats. To add to that, Itachi has better Taijutsu feats, especially thanks to Sharingan. Minato, knowing about the Sharingan, and Itachi's clone tricks, would probably try to avoid close combat with Itachi, unless he attempts to place a seal on Itachi.

Ninjutsu: Both Itachi and Minato have shown prowess in ninjutsu. Itachi's ninjutsu, however, can be avoided by Flying Thunder God. Minato could quickly move around while scattering his Space-Time Kunais, which he could later warp to in order to avoid getting hit by one of Itachi's jutsu. Or he can just throw the kunai and warp to it right away.

Also, his Space-Time Barrier would help a lot. Minato could warp away Itachi's jutsu with this technique, and possibly even warp it back to Itachi to give him a taste of his own medicine (Chapter 502 page 8 implies that he can send attacks where he likes, so if he wanted to he could probably send a fireball back to Itachi or something).

Minato also has summoning jutsu along with this. To summon you have to sign a contract with a certain species, so this means that Minato could probably summon all the toads, which would be a major advantage. But to be safe I'll just use Gamabunta. Bunta can crush Itachi with Food Cart Destroyer Technique (like he did with the Kyubi, however, Kyubi>Itachi), subdue him with multiple water bullets, or just provide a distraction for Minato.

Itachi's clones can be destroyed with Rasengans, kunais, or a boss summon. And about the exploding clone, Minato didn't seem too hurt when he saved Naruto from an explosion. He'd also be cautious with things like this, with full knowledge, so he'd try to avoid getting hurt by the clones.

Amaterasu is quick, but I believe Minato would be on a lookout for it (Raikage prepared himself to dodge Amaterasu when he saw Sasuke's Mangekyo Sharingan, why Minato wouldn't do this with full knowledge, I don't know). Also, a partial Curse Mark Sasuke was able to run away from it for some time. If Minato throws a kunai and warps to it, or prepares his Space-Time Barrier, he should be fine.

Susano'o would give Itachi a large advantage, but he can't use it, so ha.

Genjutsu: Itachi's genjutsu can be avoided by not looking at his eyes and/or keeping a safe distance (this can be done by standing on a toad, or just staying away). It can also be dispelled by the toads by disrupting Minato's chakra flow. Either way, Minato should be able to figure this out with full knowledge. However, if Minato gets caught in Tsukuyomi he's screwed which is why it's important for him to keep this in mind the whole battle.

Other stuffs: Basically Minato could win by using Flying Thunder God a lot, and staying away from Itachi. Boss summons would be a great thing to use, as they can provide both offense and defense. Ugh this was hell to write.

Phoenix Wright
08-05-2010, 04:34 PM
And I'm guessing since I really posted all there is to say in my first post, this will be yet another Reiteration of the Phoenix. Except with less words. xD

Minato wins. I'mma do this organizing thing too.

Zomg. here weh goe.

Knowledge & Intelligence: With full knowledge, Minato will know about Itachi's genjutsu, so he can figure out a way to avoid it. He was able to figure out Tobi's technique and Kakashi's Chidori after seeing them once, and figuring out a way to avoid Itachi's genjutsu when he has boss summons and Flying Thunder God is possible. He could also figure out ways around Itachi's other techniques.

Just what I said D= I see the more words stuff coming on soon.

Itachi will know about Flying Thunder God but he can't stop kunais being thrown around the battlefield. He also can't stop being crushed by a boss toad, although he can try to kill the toad, which would only take his chakra, and in the meantime Minato could be attacking.

Just what I said basically, except I noted that Itachi will surely be going after the Kunai rather than trying to stop it, although Minato will be prepared as we both noted that he's basically a tactical genius.

BTW I had more words =)

Speed: Speed is equalized so that's not a problem, but Itachi should have better reaction speed thanks to the Sharingan, and his reaction feats in his fight with Sasuke. However, Minato managed to react to Tobi's warping and attacks from the Kyubi, as well as save a Chidori-using Kakashi, and his son from exploding tags, so it's safe to say that he has good reaction speed as well. Also, I doubt Sharingan could track Minato when he teleports, because it's instant.

It's equalized? Other than that it's what I said although you listed a couple more feats. Although throughout my post there were quite a bit more feats I'd say.

The only one you listed that I didn't however, was using FTG anyway, which is a jutsu, and not really speed in its own. (Guess who had more words?)

Strength & Durability (Taijutsu): Neither Minato nor Itachi have shown good strength feats, and Minato has shown few durability feats. To add to that, Itachi has better Taijutsu feats, especially thanks to Sharingan. Minato, knowing about the Sharingan, and Itachi's clone tricks, would probably try to avoid close combat with Itachi, unless he attempts to place a seal on Itachi.

So what are the durability feats, provided I didn't list them yet? Itachi has shown the better of the two in taijutsu feats showing during the fight with Sasuke.

And again though, exactly. With full knowledge it really makes it easier for the two, although the knowledge factor does go both ways.

Ninjutsu: Both Itachi and Minato have shown prowess in ninjutsu. Itachi's ninjutsu, however, can be avoided by Flying Thunder God. Minato could quickly move around while scattering his Space-Time Kunais, which he could later warp to in order to avoid getting hit by one of Itachi's jutsu. Or he can just throw the kunai and warp to it right away.

Yeah most of it can be avoided with it, as I listed. He uses the tags to his advantage as well so if Itachi didn't notice his tags he could, warp between the two.

Although it most likely wouldn't happen as what you haven't mentioned yet is that the knowledge does go both ways as I said above.

Also, his Space-Time Barrier would help a lot. Minato could warp away Itachi's jutsu with this technique, and possibly even warp it back to Itachi to give him a taste of his own medicine (Chapter 502 page 8 implies that he can send attacks where he likes, so if he wanted to he could probably send a fireball back to Itachi or something).

It would be pretty useful as I listed, it could warp away the fireballs and arguably things like Amaterasu. As I said Minato could spread the Amaterasu onto Itachi, and he could try to stop it however only Sasuke has showed the feat.

Minato also has summoning jutsu along with this. To summon you have to sign a contract with a certain species, so this means that Minato could probably summon all the toads, which would be a major advantage. But to be safe I'll just use Gamabunta. Bunta can crush Itachi with Food Cart Destroyer Technique (like he did with the Kyubi, however, Kyubi>Itachi), subdue him with multiple water bullets, or just provide a distraction for Minato.

Yeah exactly, but really he hasn't shown the ability for other toads so that's why I didn't mention anything really. Although he most likely could if he wanted.

Itachi's clones can be destroyed with Rasengans, kunais, or a boss summon. And about the exploding clone, Minato didn't seem too hurt when he saved Naruto from an explosion. He'd also be cautious with things like this, with full knowledge, so he'd try to avoid getting hurt by the clones.

I was going to mention his clones but he really isn't the one for stamina, and really hasn't shown the ability to make too many of them, although he did survive with Susano'o on for awhile.

Amaterasu is quick, but I believe Minato would be on a lookout for it (Raikage prepared himself to dodge Amaterasu when he saw Sasuke's Mangekyo Sharingan, why Minato wouldn't do this with full knowledge, I don't know). Also, a partial Curse Mark Sasuke was able to run away from it for some time. If Minato throws a kunai and warps to it, or prepares his Space-Time Barrier, he should be fine.

Since he moves faster for the sharingan to notice, as I said. Well the Curse Mark Sasuke more or less matched it with his own fireball then proceeded to use Oral Rebirth, but yeah.

Susano'o would give Itachi a large advantage, but he can't use it, so ha.

Exactly.

Genjutsu: Itachi's genjutsu can be avoided by not looking at his eyes and/or keeping a safe distance (this can be done by standing on a toad, or just staying away). It can also be dispelled by the toads by disrupting Minato's chakra flow. Either way, Minato should be able to figure this out with full knowledge. However, if Minato gets caught in Tsukuyomi he's screwed which is why it's important for him to keep this in mind the whole battle.

Just what I said, with an exception of the toads disrupting Minato's chakra. But with full knowledge, Itachi would be prepared for the toads, and Minato would be prepared for genjutsu.

As we've probably both figured out, Minato most likely wouldn't have trouble keeping in mind he's an Uchiha and can end the fight right then and there shall he look into his eyes.

Other stuffs: Basically Minato could win by using Flying Thunder God a lot, and staying away from Itachi. Boss summons would be a great thing to use, as they can provide both offense and defense. Ugh this was hell to write.

Yeah, pretty much. The only thing is the limit to Minato's chakra and whether he'll run out if he spams it all day long.

So it was hell to write? Took me like ten minutes =D

And yet! Another successful reiteration of the Great Phoenix's first post!

You listed 2 or 3 small feats that I didn't, which I explained in the counter (in red).

Good job. But guess what?

Mine had more words. `;)

Kuromaki
08-05-2010, 04:56 PM
Yes it's equalized, as stated in the OP.

I believe Itachi showed some durability feats in his fight with Sasuke, either that or he showed stamina feats (lasting against Sasuke despite being sick, half blind, and holding back), I can't check because I have no manga site to get the Itachi vs. Sasuke chapters. However, Minato did survive an explosion, or at least part of it, when he saved Naruto. It's arguable that this is because of FTG.

Itachi can't do anything about a bunch of kunais being scattered on the floor, granted he'd try to stop Minato or go after the kunais.

It would be pretty useful as I listed, it could warp away the fireballs and arguably things like Amaterasu. As I said Minato could spread the Amaterasu onto Itachi, and he could try to stop it however only Sasuke has showed the feat.If Minato tried to spread his flames on Itachi then they're both screwed, or Itachi could try to stop the flames on him. And Itachi could just keep Minato at bay if he gets hit by Ammy, since I doubt Minato will be able to move around much with it burning him.

I didn't mention any other toads either but w/e. Either he has them, or he just has Gamabunta. He could win either way.

I was going to mention his clones but he really isn't the one for stamina, and really hasn't shown the ability to make too many of them, although he did survive with Susano'o on for awhile.True. Using clones would only waste his chakra.

Just what I said, with an exception of the toads disrupting Minato's chakra. But with full knowledge, Itachi would be prepared for the toads, and Minato would be prepared for genjutsu.Yes, and the toads could give Itachi a tough time unless he Ammys them which would take quite a portion of his chakra.

Yeah, pretty much. The only thing is the limit to Minato's chakra and whether he'll run out if he spams it all day long.Has FTG ever showed a strain on Minato? Take the great ninja war for example, when he teleported quickly to kill the enemy ninjas by using a crapload of FTG kunais and he didn't seem very tired, although he could've rested between the time he killed them and the time he appeared to save Kakashi. He was also able to use FTG many times when the Kyubi attacked.
Mine had more words. `;)FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-

Phoenix Wright
08-05-2010, 05:06 PM
Yes it's equalized, as stated in the OP.

Oh wow, it is, too. Doesn't change things however, as things like FTG as stated in the last post is a jutsu of its own.

I believe Itachi showed some durability feats in his fight with Sasuke, either that or he showed stamina feats (lasting against Sasuke despite being sick, half blind, and holding back), I can't check because I have no manga site to get the Itachi vs. Sasuke chapters. However, Minato did survive an explosion, or at least part of it, when he saved Naruto. It's arguable that this is because of FTG.

Yeah that is where they were if he had any, as were his physical strength feats. It sucks that OM was shut down, but whatever =/ Yeah whether it was or not shouldn't matter since 1) Speed is equal and 2) It's even more speed in the case it was FTG, in Minato's favor.

Itachi can't do anything about a bunch of kunais being scattered on the floor, granted he'd try to stop Minato or go after the kunais.

Exactly, but shall he do it then he'd get hit with a rasengan, kunai to the face, a punch, or the like, upon Minato's appearance.

If Minato tried to spread his flames on Itachi then they're both screwed, or Itachi could try to stop the flames on him. And Itachi could just keep Minato at bay if he gets hit by Ammy, since I doubt Minato will be able to move around much with it burning him.

But it most likely won't happen since he does have his barrier and Itachi hasn't shown the ability to do it, since now Sasuke's Ammy has been shown superior as he can basically shift it to his doing now.

I didn't mention any other toads either but w/e. Either he has them, or he just has Gamabunta. He could win either way.

Yeah, and also it states right in the databooks,(which is a factor, its not discussing FTL speeds or the like) that just because you sign a contract doesn't mean you can summon all the animals in the contract. So just because Minato can summon Gamabunta, it actually doesn't mean he can summon others.
True. Using clones would only waste his chakra.

Yep.

Yes, and the toads could give Itachi a tough time unless he Ammys them which would take quite a portion of his chakra.

Yeah. So basically in the fight he kept Susano'o up for awhile, managed two Ammy's and I think one Tsukiyomi, but I don't remember.

Has FTG ever showed a strain on Minato? Take the great ninja war for example, when he teleported quickly to kill the enemy ninjas by using a crapload of FTG kunais and he didn't seem very tired, although he could've rested between the time he killed them and the time he appeared to save Kakashi. He was also able to use FTG many times when the Kyubi attacked.

Nope, which means he probably wouldn't lose too much chakra if any, especially since my opening post didn't mention anything about it xD

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-

UUUU-

`;)

10char

Kuromaki
08-05-2010, 05:22 PM
Oh wow, it is, too. Doesn't change things however, as things like FTG as stated in the last post is a jutsu of its own. Yeah, since it's instant it won't get equalized.
Exactly, but shall he do it then he'd get hit with a rasengan, kunai to the face, a punch, or the like, upon Minato's appearance.
Indeed, it would leave him open for an attack from Minato, since Minato can warp near him or something if he's focused on something else.
But it most likely won't happen since he does have his barrier and Itachi hasn't shown the ability to do it, since now Sasuke's Ammy has been shown superior as he can basically shift it to his doing now.I don't think it would happen, with full knowledge, the barrier, and FTG, but in the scenario that it does hit Minato, I believe he would die first, just sayin'.

Yeah, and also it states right in the databooks,(which is a factor, its not discussing FTL speeds or the like) that just because you sign a contract doesn't mean you can summon all the animals in the contract. So just because Minato can summon Gamabunta, it actually doesn't mean he can summon others.Really? If that's true, then Minato can only summon Bunta, it doesn't matter, but the other toads seemed to know him so that implies he can.

Nope, which means he probably wouldn't lose too much chakra if any, especially since my opening post didn't mention anything about it xD
Yep.UUUU-I would add the C, but, you know...

Phoenix Wright
08-05-2010, 05:31 PM
Yeah, since it's instant it won't get equalized.

Yeah, since its a jutsu and not Minato's speed.

Indeed, it would leave him open for an attack from Minato, since Minato can warp near him or something if he's focused on something else.

True here too.

I don't think it would happen, with full knowledge, the barrier, and FTG, but in the scenario that it does hit Minato, I believe he would die first, just sayin'.

Yeah same. The one problem I see is Itachi's finger genjutsu that I dunno if anyone's mentioned yet. =/

Where's Minato gonna look though, if he can't look at his eyes or his finger?

Really? If that's true, then Minato can only summon Bunta, it doesn't matter, but the other toads seemed to know him so that implies he can.

Yeah, but its best to say he can't, just in case.

Yep.I would add the C, but, you know...

Yeah, I know..

Okay I got this for future reference: Kuro and her team I'll counter in red.

Akatsuki X provided he ever posts will be in this color `;)

So we basically agree on everything now, except for the one new topic I brought up, AKA the Finger Genjutsu. It's the only problem that actually changes Minato's winning chance in the long run.

Kuromaki
08-05-2010, 05:37 PM
Yeah same. The one problem I see is Itachi's finger genjutsu that I dunno if anyone's mentioned yet. =/

Where's Minato gonna look though, if he can't look at his eyes or his finger?
That's why I brought up the whole thing about Gamabunta and keeping his distance. If Minato can keep his distance he should be fine.

Also, doesn't the finger genjutsu just require pointing? If so that could be a bigger problem. If it requires Minato to look, though, Minato can just look at.... some other parts of Itachi's body. ;) Yes, I'm being serious.

Phoenix Wright
08-05-2010, 05:46 PM
That's why I brought up the whole thing about Gamabunta and keeping his distance. If Minato can keep his distance he should be fine.

Also, doesn't the finger genjutsu just require pointing? If so that could be a bigger problem. If it requires Minato to look, though, Minato can just look at.... some other parts of Itachi's body. ;) Yes, I'm being serious.
Yeah that's why I said that too, xD In my opening post >_<

Yeah I was thinking that too, but Naruto actually did look at his hand. Really if he does look.. There, he's ought to see the hands one point or another.

Really keeping his distance should do the trick as we agreed, although being bloodlusted and all its arguable he'd need even worry about that stuff.

Kuromaki
08-05-2010, 05:58 PM
Yeah that's why I said that too, xD In my opening post >_< Food Cart Destroyer Technique or standing on top of Gamabunta FTW.

Yeah I was thinking that too, but Naruto actually did look at his hand. Really if he does look.. There, he's ought to see the hands one point or another. Itachi still needs to point his finger, and Minato, being the tactical Kage that he is, wouldn't let himself get caught so easily.

Really keeping his distance should do the trick as we agreed, although being bloodlusted and all its arguable he'd need even worry about that stuff. Yep. There's also the whole thing about the toad(s?) dispelling the genjutsu, should he get caught, if Bunta hasn't been killed.

In blue.

Phoenix Wright
08-05-2010, 06:02 PM

In blue.
Yeah, exactly.

Alright we've agreed and reached a stopping point.

Now to wait for Akatsuki X, hoping that he posts, and already, the mods are screwed xD `;)

Shikamaru Nara
08-06-2010, 10:29 AM
He hasn't been active lately. Maybe he dropped out?

Phoenix Wright
08-06-2010, 10:37 AM
Heh, it'd be better for you if he didn't post.

And himself. Wouldn't want to go through that kind of rejection.

Yeah I just want to lure him here xD

But seriously mine has more words.

Maybe he's been working on a really long post since yesterday?

Woot, go Akatsuki X!

Shikamaru Nara
08-06-2010, 10:39 AM
Yeah, there's no way in hell First is gonna judge, so I'm stuck with it this time. xD

Well, I'm going to stop spamming now.

Phoenix Wright
08-06-2010, 10:53 AM
xD Nice.

So yeah, no moar spamzorz, and hope to whatever you feel like having hope on that he doesn't post O_O

I sorta want him to though and hope it's not another copy of my own post though xD

/conversation

Akatsuki X
08-06-2010, 01:08 PM
My internet has been down for about a day now, and finally came back on, so hopefully I will be able to reply before it goes off again.

Sorry it has taken me this long, I hope I still have time to reply.

Anyways unlike my opponent's, I'm going to argue that Itachi beats Minato.

So to start, Itachi is known as one of, if not, the best genjutsu user in the series. His most powerful type of genjutsu is called Tsukuyumi. This is a genjutsu style that only people who have the Mangekyo Sharingan can use. This technique allows the user to control time and space within the genjutsu, making seconds seem like days to the tortured victim.

The downside of this technique is that the user has to make eye contact with the victim for the genjutsu to be put into effect. With full knowledge, it shouldn't be too difficult for Minato to avoid looking at Itachi's eyes, and thus avoiding Tsukuyumi.

But Tsukuyumi is only one of the few genjutsu's that Itachi possess's. Another one of these genjutsu's is called shackling stakes. Itachi used this genjutsu against Orochimaru when Orochimaru tried to steal Itachi's sharingan. This genjutsu causes the illusion of several large stakes to pierce the victim's body, causing them great pain, and immobilizing them.

Since Shackling Stakes does NOT require eye contact to work, and is pretty instant to cast, it would be possible for Itachi to use Shackling Stakes to immobilize Minato and keep him from throwing any kunai and teleporting. He could then proceed to use Tsukuyumi with Minato pinned down by forcing Minato to look at him.

If this genjutsu strategy doesn't work for Itachi thou, he has other methods of killing Minato.

Since both opponent's have full knowledge of each others abilities, then it can be assumed that Itachi knows of Minato's jutsu; Flying Thunder God. Flying Thunder God allows the user to throw special kunai, or write special seals on an object or person, and then have the ability to instantly teleport to those kunai or seals.

Since Itachi has full knowledge of this, it would not be difficult for him to avoid and keep track of where Minato throw's his kunai, making it so Minato would not be able to attack him via teleporting sneak attack. He would also know to avoid Minato, as to keep him from writing a seal on his body, allowing him to instantly teleport to Itachi's location.

All of this would be exceptionally easy for Itachi, considering that his kekki genki, the Sharingan, allows him to read an opponent's movement's and react to them faster than the average shinobi.

While Itachi is avoiding Minato, he could also use his other Mangekyo Sharingan ability
against Minato; Amaterasu. Amaterasu is a technique that cause's the user to call forth black flame from their right eye, which catch's anything that is the point of vision for that eye, to catch on fire. The flames are supposedly, hotter than the sun, and able to burn for seven days and nights. While this is probably hype, it is a very powerful technique, and the flames cannot be extinguished by normal means. The flames can only be extinguished if the user chooses to put them out.

So that means that even is Itachi was only able to catch a little bit of Minato on fire with Amaterasu, that the fire would spread throughout him, and Minato would have no way to put it out, meaning that he would eventually die.

Of course, Amaterasu does take a little bit of prep time, shown in Itachi's fight with Sasuke in which he had to take a few seconds to strain his right eye to such an extent for the technique, that he actually produced tears of blood.

So between the prep time and Minato's Flying God Technique, it would be normally be quite difficult for Itachi to pin Minato with Amaterasu. But as shown in his fight with Naruto, Itachi is quite proficient at making shadow clones. Even with a 30% power duplicate Itachi, his clone's were able to cause team Kakashi quite a bit of trouble. The clones could distract Minato, using other fire techniques such as Immortal Phoenix Fire Technique, Great Fireball Technique, or Water Fang Bullet. This would allow the real Itachi to buy enough time to use Amaterasu against the disracted Minato.

Also concerning speed, as was stated in a previous argument made by Phoenix in this debate, who stated that Minato was faster than Itachi. Itachi in a weakened state, was able to keep up, if not surpass Sasuke in speed. Sasuke was able to keep up with base Killerbee, who has shown far more speed feats from Minato. Minato's only real speed feats without the use of Flying Thunder God, are rescuing baby Naruto in mid-air from Madara, and saving Kushina multiple times.

In conclusion, I believe that Itachi can beat Minato with either genjutsu or with Amaterasu.

Phoenix Wright
08-06-2010, 01:28 PM
My internet has been down for about a day now, and finally came back on, so hopefully I will be able to reply before it goes off again.

Cool.

Sorry it has taken me this long, I hope I still have time to reply.

Yep.

Anyways unlike my opponent's, I'm going to argue that Itachi beats Minato.

Awesome!!

So to start, Itachi is known as one of, if not, the best genjutsu user in the series. His most powerful type of genjutsu is called Tsukuyumi. This is a genjutsu style that only people who have the Mangekyo Sharingan can use.

Actually Susano'o is by far more powerful.

This technique allows the user to control time and space within the genjutsu, making seconds seem like days to the tortured victim.

And Susano'o (which is banned) makes it by far the most powerful as it puts you in an infinite dreamland.

The downside of this technique is that the user has to make eye contact with the victim for the genjutsu to be put into effect. With full knowledge, it shouldn't be too difficult for Minato to avoid looking at Itachi's eyes, and thus avoiding Tsukuyumi.

Exactly.

But Tsukuyumi is only one of the few genjutsu's that Itachi possess's. Another one of these genjutsu's is called shackling stakes. Itachi used this genjutsu against Orochimaru when Orochimaru tried to steal Itachi's sharingan. This genjutsu causes the illusion of several large stakes to pierce the victim's body, causing them great pain, and immobilizing them.

But according to you, the most powerful is Tsukiyomi D=

Since Shackling Stakes does NOT require eye contact to work, and is pretty instant to cast, it would be possible for Itachi to use Shackling Stakes to immobilize Minato and keep him from throwing any kunai and teleporting. He could then proceed to use Tsukuyumi with Minato pinned down by forcing Minato to look at him.

But how would he manage to get him in the genjutsu? Besides, Orochimaru survived it so why shouldn't Minato be able to? As the match is though, its bloodlusted so he wouldn't be using a low rank genjutsu as this.

If this genjutsu strategy doesn't work for Itachi thou, he has other methods of killing Minato.

Yes.

Since both opponent's have full knowledge of each others abilities, then it can be assumed that Itachi knows of Minato's jutsu; Flying Thunder God.

And Minato knows all of Itachi's techniques too. He'll be ready. It goes both ways. (Hehe like a bisexual hehe)

Flying Thunder God allows the user to throw special kunai, or write special seals on an object or person, and then have the ability to instantly teleport to those kunai or seals.

Yeah.

Since Itachi has full knowledge of this, it would not be difficult for him to avoid and keep track of where Minato throw's his kunai, to avoid Minato to attack him via teleporting sneak attack. He would also know to avoid Minato, as to keep him from writing a seal on his body, allowing him to instantly teleport to Itachi's location.

But what's he going to do since Minato will be ready for it as well like my post describes?

All of this would be exceptionally easy for Itachi, considering that his kekki genki, the Sharingan, allows him to read an opponent's movement's and react to them faster than the average shinobi.

Yes, react, but it doesn't change the fact speed is equal.

While Itachi is avoiding Minato, he could also use his other Mangekyo Sharingan ability
against Minato; Amaterasu.

Amaterasu is a technique that cause's the user to call forth black flame from their right eye, which catch's anything that is the point of vision for that eye, to catch on fire.

Which Minato could warp away or dodge with FTG, or his pure speed. Speed is equal you know.

The flames are supposedly, hotter than the sun, and able to burn for seven days and nights. While this is probably hype, it is a very powerful technique, and the flames cannot be extinguished by normal means. The flames can only be extinguished if the user chooses to put them out.

They're definitely not, as being anywhere near the sun would vaporize you instantly and Karin survived with them burning on her for quite some time and lived, and was fine.

So that means that even is Itachi was only able to catch a little bit of Minato on fire with Amaterasu, that the fire would spread throughout him, and Minato would have no way to put it out, meaning that he would eventually die.

Which he probably wouldn't, because Minato's FTG is too fast, they're both bloodlusted, and Minato has Space/Time Barrier.

Of course, Amaterasu does take a little bit of prep time, shown in Itachi's fight with Sasuke in which he had to take a few seconds to strain his right eye to such an extent for the technique, that he actually produced tears of blood.

Ah, prep time which Itachi wouldn't have time to use because of FTG and its massive speed.

So between the prep time and Minato's Flying God Technique, it would be normally be quite difficult for Itachi to pin Minato with Amaterasu. But as shown in his fight with Naruto, Itachi is quite proficient at making shadow clones. Even with a 30% power duplicate Itachi, his clone's were able to cause team Kakashi quite a bit of trouble.

But why couldn't Minato throw kunai at each of them and teleport to each, using Rasengan on all three or the like? FTG is teleportation, you know.

The clones could distract Minato, using other fire techniques such as Immortal Phoenix Fire Technique, Great Fireball Technique, or Water Fang Bullet. This would allow the real Itachi to buy enough time to use Amaterasu against the disracted Minato.

Which he can easily warp away with his space/time barrier, and as Kuro noted send it back at him or the clones.

Also concerning speed, as was stated in a previous argument made by Phoenix in this debate, who stated that Minato was faster than Itachi. Itachi in a weakened state, was able to keep up, if not surpass Sasuke in speed. Sasuke was able to keep up with base Killerbee, who has shown far more speed feats from Minato. Minato's only real speed feats without the use of Flying Thunder God, are rescuing baby Naruto in mid-air from Madara, and saving Kushina multiple times.

But speed is equal.

In conclusion, I believe that Itachi can beat Minato with either genjutsu or with Amaterasu.

Alright then, all in all:

You should have had more variety and listed what exactly Minato could do to win. I listed a decent amount of feats for both characters and reasons both characters had a chance to win. I also noted that the knowledge goes both ways and because Itachi knows Minato's techniques also means Minato has knowledge of Itachi's.

And the final thing:

Guess who had more words? `;)

Kuromaki
08-06-2010, 01:40 PM
Since Shackling Stakes does NOT require eye contact to work, and is pretty instant to cast, it would be possible for Itachi to use Shackling Stakes to immobilize Minato and keep him from throwing any kunai and teleporting. He could then proceed to use Tsukuyumi with Minato pinned down by forcing Minato to look at him.
Why would Itachi use a Genjutsu like this in the first place, when they're bloodlusted? And how would Minato get caught so easily? Remember, Minato has full knowledge of this technique and would try to avoid it.
But how would he manage to get him in the genjutsu? Besides, Orochimaru survived it so why shouldn't Minato be able to? As the match is though, its bloodlusted so he wouldn't be using a low rank genjutsu as this.
I agree for the most part, but if Itachi catches Minato in the genjutsu he could torture and even kill Minato.
Amaterasu is a technique that cause's the user to call forth black flame from their right eye, which catch's anything that is the point of vision for that eye, to catch on fire.
This is where the Space-Time Barrier or FTG can come into play.
The flames are supposedly, hotter than the sun, and able to burn for seven days and nights. While this is probably hype, it is a very powerful technique, and the flames cannot be extinguished by normal means. The flames can only be extinguished if the user chooses to put them out.
Ammy being as hot as the sun is databook hype. It couldn't even kill Karin or burn through samurai armor, so it can't be that hot.
So that means that even is Itachi was only able to catch a little bit of Minato on fire with Amaterasu, that the fire would spread throughout him, and Minato would have no way to put it out, meaning that he would eventually die.
This is true, but Minato also has the Space-Time Barrier which could warp it away beforehand, or he can simply avoid it with FTG.

Of course, Amaterasu does take a little bit of prep time, shown in Itachi's fight with Sasuke in which he had to take a few seconds to strain his right eye to such an extent for the technique, that he actually produced tears of blood.
That prep time will allow for Minato to prepare himself for the technique, like Raikage did.
So between the prep time and Minato's Flying God Technique, it would be normally be quite difficult for Itachi to pin Minato with Amaterasu. But as shown in his fight with Naruto, Itachi is quite proficient at making shadow clones. Even with a 30% power duplicate Itachi, his clone's were able to cause team Kakashi quite a bit of trouble.
Minato could throw a bunch of kunais at once, or summon Bunta to help him with defeating the clones.

The clones could distract Minato, using other fire techniques such as Immortal Phoenix Fire Technique, Great Fireball Technique, or Water Fang Bullet. This would allow the real Itachi to buy enough time to use Amaterasu against the disracted Minato.
Space-Time Barrier, FTG, or pure speed lets Minato avoid those attacks, and Water Fang Bullet needs a water source.

Also concerning speed, as was stated in a previous argument made by Phoenix in this debate, who stated that Minato was faster than Itachi. Itachi in a weakened state, was able to keep up, if not surpass Sasuke in speed. Sasuke was able to keep up with base Killerbee, who has shown far more speed feats from Minato. Minato's only real speed feats without the use of Flying Thunder God, are rescuing baby Naruto in mid-air from Madara, and saving Kushina multiple times.
Speed is equalized so it doesn't matter, that just means that both Minato and Itachi have good reaction speed.

You also didn't counter the Gamabunta method.

Phoenix Wright
08-06-2010, 01:44 PM
Yeah we both said basically the same thing =D

I agree for the most part, but if Itachi catches Minato in the genjutsu he could torture and even kill Minato.

Yeah he probably could, but it won't happen because of both the Gamabunta method and for the fact that they're bloodlusted as we both agreed on.

Akatsuki X
08-06-2010, 10:22 PM
Alright then, all in all:

You should have had more variety and listed what exactly Minato could do to win. I listed a decent amount of feats for both characters and reasons both characters had a chance to win. I also noted that the knowledge goes both ways and because Itachi knows Minato's techniques also means Minato has knowledge of Itachi's.

And the final thing:

Guess who had more words? `;)

Strange, this is unlike you Phoenix, I expected much more thought-out replies and less aggressive sarcasm by such a respected debater.

First off, I never stated Sasono'o was more powerful, I was simply stating that Tsukuyumi is a useful technique since Sasono'o is banned.

You kept insisting that I was stating that Tsukuyumi is far more powerful than Sasono'o, which I don't think at all.

Shackling Stakes is instant, as shown when Orochimaru went to attack Itachi from behind and was immediately placed in the genjutsu. Also Orchimaru didn't survive it, Itachi chose to end it. Furthermore it is not a low-level genjutsu, as Orochimaru was restrained by it and was unable to break it. Finally, just because they are bloodlusted does not mean that they are stupid, if Itachi see's that Minato is avoiding his eyesight and avoiding Tsukuyumi, then he will obviously use his next best thing.

Speed is equal, but that dosen't mean that Itachi isn't able to react visually better to Minato's movements thanks to his Mangekyo Sharingan.

I don't see how Minato is going to warp away Amaterasu when it's on him. As far as his ability to warp attacks goes, we only saw him warp away the Kyuubi's Menacing Ball, which was coming towards him, not on him.

I also don't see how Minato would even know that Itachi is using Amaterasu on him. Just because they have full knowledge, doesn't mean that they can read each others minds.

Karin surviving Sasuke's ammy was mostly PIS, but if you noticed, Sasuke ended Amaterasu before Karin died, something Itachi would not do for Minato.

If Itachi used a few shadow clones he could easily buy the small amount of prep time that he would need for Amaterasu. As far as I'm aware, the clones would have knowledge of Minato's abilities as well, and will be able to avoid FTG and rasengans for the amount of time it would take the real Itachi to use Amaterasu.

Finally, at the end, you lectured me about how to debate, and then proceeded to brag about how you posted more than me.

Not very professional.

Phoenix Wright
08-06-2010, 10:53 PM
Strange, this is unlike you Phoenix, I expected much more thought-out replies and less aggressive sarcasm by such a respected debater.

Hmm, seems like you're acting quite serious from the start?

First off, I never stated Sasono'o was more powerful, I was simply stating that Tsukuyumi is a useful technique since Sasono'o is banned.

No, you specifically said "It's Itachi's most powerful Genjutsu."

You kept insisting that I was stating that Tsukuyumi is far more powerful than Sasono'o, which I don't think at all.

Then why'd you say so?

Shackling Stakes is instant, as shown when Orochimaru went to attack Itachi from behind and was immediately placed in the genjutsu. Also Orchimaru didn't survive it, Itachi chose to end it. Furthermore it is not a low-level genjutsu, as Orochimaru was restrained by it and was unable to break it. Finally, just because they are bloodlusted does not mean that they are stupid, if Itachi see's that Minato is avoiding his eyesight and avoiding Tsukuyumi, then he will obviously use his next best thing.

But since when is that his next best thing? He has other things to use as well like exploding clones. As they're bloodlusted I doubt he'd have a chance to react to Kunai + Rasengan. Even so, attempting to use Shackling Stakes on Minato, he'd be ready for it with full knowledge and whatnot, considering he's found a counter for everything so far and knows what his "next best thing" is in order to get so far.

Speed is equal, but that dosen't mean that Itachi isn't able to react visually better to Minato's movements thanks to his Mangekyo Sharingan.

Yes, although you talked about reaction speed in a completely different paragraph, this is just regular speed, which is equal.

I don't see how Minato is going to warp away Amaterasu when it's on him. As far as his ability to warp attacks goes, we only saw him warp away the Kyuubi's Menacing Ball, which was coming towards him, not on him.

I said it can also warp other things such as fireballs, and he can warp them to different spots as well so why not at Itachi?

He can also warp to Itachi with Amaterasu, and in that case either they'd both die or Itachi would have to pull off the trick of stopping it, which was a specific Sasuke thing that showed his superiority using MS now, and allowing him to be able to control Enton when Karin was being burned. We still don't know the complete destructive power of Amaterasu anyway, as it was on Karin for sometime and still didn't end up killing her.

I also don't see how Minato would even know that Itachi is using Amaterasu on him. Just because they have full knowledge, doesn't mean that they can read each others minds.

He'd know what Amaterasu was and be ready for it. If you see a dude with Mangekyou Sharingan and know what Amaterasu is and the facts are he's going to use it, then you'd try to keep your distance for sure, or at least spam warping techniques to stay away, and throw in a rasengan.

Karin surviving Sasuke's ammy was mostly PIS, but if you noticed, Sasuke ended Amaterasu before Karin died, something Itachi would not do for Minato.

Nor on himself, shall I note above Minato teleports next to Itachi and spreads it onto himself.

If Itachi used a few shadow clones he could easily buy the small amount of prep time that he would need for Amaterasu. As far as I'm aware, the clones would have knowledge of Minato's abilities as well, and will be able to avoid FTG and rasengans for the amount of time it would take the real Itachi to use Amaterasu.

Where's Itachi's speed feats assuming that his clones can do so?


You said something about 30% Chakra in each, correct? I'm nearly completely positive I remember something somewhere stating Speed and Power change according to your amount of chakra, and splitting your chakra for clones, makes them have 30% of Itachi's speed, equalized, or not; equalized for the two however, shows Minato's speed is also as fast. Itachi's clones with 30% of his chakra, are also 30% of Minato's speed.

Finally, at the end, you lectured me about how to debate, and then proceeded to brag about how you posted more than me.

Can't take a joke, can we? Since when was that a lecture anyway? I simply posted what you didn't do, that did. I slowly went through your (short compared to mine `;)) post, and summarized the mistakes you've made at the bottom. Feel free to attempt to do so to my large post if you feel the need to "Stoop to my level," per say. Great way to, sort of, understand what more detail my post was in, or the like.

Not very professional.

xD

10Char.

Addressing the Tsukiyomi mishap, lemme just edit this in.

His most powerful type of genjutsu is called Tsukuyumi.

By the way you still never countered the Gamabunta bit.

Akatsuki X
08-06-2010, 11:11 PM
Mr. Phoenix your off your knocker. xD

Last time I checked Sasono'o is not a genjutsu.
So yeah, I am stating that Tsukuyomi is Itachi's most powerful genjutsu.

You think that bloodlusted means that the person has no intelligence. Just because Itachi is going to go through any means necessary to kill Minato, it does not mean that he won't use genjutsu. He is a proficient user of genjutsu, so him being bloodlusted will just mean that he will try to kill Minato with genjutsu, faster.

Speed equal means all speed, including reaction. I was just stating that Itachi should be able to SEE Minato's movements easier.

If Itachi hit Minato with Amaterasu, I doubt that he would be able to throw a kunai to Itachi, teleport to him, spread the fire to his body, and cause him to put it out. I'm pretty sure Itachi would notice him doing this and simply avoid the kunai.

So your saying, that since Minato knows of Itachi's MS abilities, that he can magically know when he will use them? That's absurd. He can spam FTG all he wants, and Itachi can make clones to distract him, wearing him out and allowing himself to use Ammy.

I said nothing about Itachi's clones having 30% of his power. Pain used a technique to create a duplicate of Itachi with a dead body that had 30% of his power.

I do believe that shadow clones only have a fraction of the power and speed of the original user, but Itachi's shadow clones don't need to be powerful, they just need to distract Minato and allow Itachi to pin him with Amaterasu.

This is all, assuming of course, that Itachi's genjutsu strategy won't work, which it should considering that Minato has no way of avoiding or escaping it.

I can take a joke Phoenix, I just feel as if you should take it more seriously and not respond to me as if you are mocking me. Since neither Kuro nor Sasuke felt the need to do so.

Phoenix Wright
08-06-2010, 11:27 PM
Mr. Phoenix your off your knocker. xD
`;)
Last time I checked Sasono'o is not a genjutsu.
So yeah, I am stating that Tsukuyomi is Itachi's most powerful genjutsu.

It seemed pretty weird that you said Tsukiyomi was his most powerful genjutsu though. Taking Susano'o into account and its genjutsu effect, there's clearly something there that's more powerful than Tsukiyomi, in which Itachi possesses.

You think that bloodlusted means that the person has no intelligence. Just because Itachi is going to go through any means necessary to kill Minato, it does not mean that he won't use genjutsu. He is a proficient user of genjutsu, so him being bloodlusted will just mean that he will try to kill Minato with genjutsu, faster.

No, I think that bloodlusted most likely means Kunai+Rasengan=Dead Itachi, then he'd be ready for it, or the like, and Minato would be prepared for that, etc. Really there's a variety here, as my, first post said.

Speed equal means all speed, including reaction. I was just stating that Itachi should be able to SEE Minato's movements easier.

Well then why were you saying stuff about Sharingan being able to dodge Minato's techniques when it comes across? I mean even I'd agree with that, if reaction speed was equal Physical Fighting would be useless as they'd both react the same to attacks and it'd be a stalemate, and would continue over and over.

If Itachi hit Minato with Amaterasu, I doubt that he would be able to throw a kunai to Itachi, teleport to him, spread the fire to his body, and cause him to put it out. I'm pretty sure Itachi would notice him doing this and simply avoid the kunai.

Being bloodlusted means you'll do whatever it takes to win, meaning biting, clawing, slashing, and the like. Minato would barely notice the Amaterasu burning if he was trying to kill Itachi no matter what. In other words bloodlust=feel no pain. However, if Itachi was smashed into the ground by a rasengan, physical damage itself would prevent Itachi from standing.

Plus I dunno if anyone mentioned but with Space/Time barrier why couldn't Minato just warp Itachi away, and by BG defaults he'd have left the battlefield and insta-lose.

So your saying, that since Minato knows of Itachi's MS abilities, that he can magically know when he will use them? That's absurd. He can spam FTG all he wants, and Itachi can make clones to distract him, wearing him out and allowing himself to use Ammy.

When did I say this? Since they removed the stack-quoting thing I can't tell what exactly you're attempting to counter. I knew you'd bring this up as soon as I started typing about Amaterasu. The thing is Minato discovered Raikiri and Madara's Intangibility mechanics in seconds, you're saying, that upon knowing of Itachi's best techniques, he'll say "Lol hes not gonna use them?"

I said nothing about Itachi's clones having 30% of his power. Pain used a technique to create a duplicate of Itachi with a dead body that had 30% of his power.

Yeah but with Shadow Clones you can distribute chakra between them, still less chakra is less speed, and with less Speed than Minato they get killed. They have low durability, and shown in the Haku fight Naruto's clones were utterly stomped by simple senbon needles and the like. Countless times the manga shows their low durability, it probably wasn't the best example however as Naruto was a noob at the time.

I do believe that shadow clones only have a fraction of the power and speed of the original user, but Itachi's shadow clones don't need to be powerful, they just need to distract Minato and allow Itachi to pin him with Amaterasu.

He just wants to kill Minato. Minato would most likely ignore the clones and go straight for the real one but assuming he does which he may, he can just use one rasengan and smash into all them using FTG, and using it and warping from place to place, as Raikage did, he'd be moving too fast for Itachi's eyes to see, plus Sasuke's eyes were superior at the time as I listed Itachi couldn't control Amaterasu and Sasuke stopped it, now he has Enton.

This is all, assuming of course, that Itachi's genjutsu strategy won't work, which it should considering that Minato has no way of avoiding or escaping it.

Except by moving faster than Itachi can trace with FTG. Or keeping his distance with Gamabunta or the toads. You can't escape forever, Akatsuki X.

I can take a joke Phoenix, I just feel as if you should take it more seriously and not respond to me as if you are mocking me. Since neither Kuro nor Sasuke felt the need to do so.

Because they haven't debated with you yet, have they? If anything Kuro has quoted your post once iirc. I don't feel there's anything wrong with me, and I did take it pretty seriously. Personally I have my reasons for summarizing but me doing so in no way shows how I'm mocking you, so to speak.

Counter the Gamabunta thing Pl0x0rz. ~Sincerely, Phoenix Wright.

By the way I do plan on countering what Akatsuki X says but I have to call it a night, so Akatsuki don't expect a response now, but tomorrow morning I'll be responding granted you post.

Kuromaki
08-07-2010, 11:07 AM
Here's some of my input on your debate. Remember that there are two other people participating in this, xD

Shackling Stakes is instant, as shown when Orochimaru went to attack Itachi from behind and was immediately placed in the genjutsu. Also Orchimaru didn't survive it, Itachi chose to end it. Furthermore it is not a low-level genjutsu, as Orochimaru was restrained by it and was unable to break it. Finally, just because they are bloodlusted does not mean that they are stupid, if Itachi see's that Minato is avoiding his eyesight and avoiding Tsukuyumi, then he will obviously use his next best thing.Since Minato knows about all of Itachi's genjutsu, he should know about Shackling Stakes, and should be prepared to avoid it by playing keep away or using boss summons.
But since when is that his next best thing?Since Itachi is a genjutsu type, he'll probably use his genjutsu more often than not.

I don't see how Minato is going to warp away Amaterasu when it's on him. As far as his ability to warp attacks goes, we only saw him warp away the Kyuubi's Menacing Ball, which was coming towards him, not on him.Ammy doesn't appear instantly, as proven by Raikage and Sasuke it just travels very quickly. And, since you admitted that it takes prep time, Minato will have time to avoid it.

I also don't see how Minato would even know that Itachi is using Amaterasu on him. Just because they have full knowledge, doesn't mean that they can read each others minds.Raikage prepared for it, why not Minato, especially since he has full knowledge of Itachi's techniques. He might not know exactly what Itachi would use next but it would be smart for him to throw a kunai or prepare a seal just in case.

Nor on himself, shall I note above Minato teleports next to Itachi and spreads it onto himself.Honestly I think Minato would die first in that case, because he gets the flames first.

Last time I checked Sasono'o is not a genjutsu.Susano'o's Sword of Totsuka can cast a genjutsu, but in this case, Tsukuyomi is Itachi's most powerful genjutsu because Susano'o is banned.

Speed equal means all speed, including reaction. I was just stating that Itachi should be able to SEE Minato's movements easier.You basically contradicted yourself, by saying that Itachi could react better to his movements. Besides, what would be the point of equal reaction speed? The fight just ends as a tie, as Phoenix said.

I do believe that shadow clones only have a fraction of the power and speed of the original user, but Itachi's shadow clones don't need to be powerful, they just need to distract Minato and allow Itachi to pin him with Amaterasu.FTG/kunai spam at each of them, dodging, going for the real Itachi, or Gamabunta smash helps Minato with this.

This is all, assuming of course, that Itachi's genjutsu strategy won't work, which it should considering that Minato has no way of avoiding or escaping it.Have you forgotten about Gamabunta, or all of the genjutsu avoiding strategies that were listed earlier in the debate?

I can take a joke Phoenix, I just feel as if you should take it more seriously and not respond to me as if you are mocking me. Since neither Kuro nor Sasuke felt the need to do so.Although I wouldn't mock you, I couldn't even if I wanted to because you haven't even responded to me.

Phoenix Wright
08-07-2010, 11:27 AM
Here's some of my input on your debate. Remember that there are two other people participating in this, xD

Yeah, I would know xD

Since Minato knows about all of Itachi's genjutsu, he should know about Shackling Stakes, and should be prepared to avoid it by playing keep away or using boss summons.

Yeah, which he still hasn't countered.

Since Itachi is a genjutsu type, he'll probably use his genjutsu more often than not.

Although he does focus on using genjutsu, he would want to stick to using MS as he's bloodlusted and wants to use his best techniques first.

Plus when Orochimaru was hit by shackling stakes he was complimenting Itachi, "Nice, a paralyzing genjutsu." It just immobilizes the target so Itachi can do something to them meanwhile. Backing up the Gamabunta bit, which you still haven't countered Akatsuki, Shackling Stakes is very short range, and every time its been used the target was a few feet away at best.

Ammy doesn't appear instantly, as proven by Raikage and Sasuke it just travels very quickly. And, since you admitted that it takes prep time, Minato will have time to avoid it.

And if Minato reacts fast enough, he could warp it away, but as I've discussed countless times FTG should still move faster than Itachi's eyes can follow. FTG is really a loophole to this "Equal speed" stuff.

Raikage prepared for it, why not Minato, especially since he has full knowledge of Itachi's techniques. He might not know exactly what Itachi would use next but it would be smart for him to throw a kunai or prepare a seal just in case.

He'd be ready for sure, plus Itachi can't really do much to a random kunai or two or ten sitting around.

Honestly I think Minato would die first in that case, because he gets the flames first.

Yeah probably, but they are bloodlusted as I said so Minato would still stay pretty focused on hurting Itachi. Plus I did list all of Gamabunta's techniques which would make it overkill.

Assuming Minato knows basic jutsus, he can also use Combination Transformation but really it might not do much.

Akatsuki really you have to counter this, you're just avoiding it, to be honest you haven't said a thing on the subject.

Susano'o's Sword of Totsuka can cast a genjutsu, but in this case, Tsukuyomi is Itachi's most powerful genjutsu because Susano'o is banned.

Yeah, that type of genjutsu is the strongest, being banned, Tsukiyomi is the strongest, but he didn't say "Because Susano'o is banned."

You basically contradicted yourself, by saying that Itachi could react better to his movements. Besides, what would be the point of equal reaction speed? The fight just ends as a tie, as Phoenix said.

Correct.

FTG/kunai spam at each of them, dodging, going for the real Itachi, or Gamabunta smash helps Minato with this.

Yeah he has a variety of things to use the little feats he has really.

Have you forgotten about Gamabunta, or all of the genjutsu avoiding strategies that were listed earlier in the debate?

Just avoiding it.

Although I wouldn't mock you, I couldn't even if I wanted to because you haven't even responded to me.

Well I don't really see how I was mocking him really, I asked questions the same way your counter asked questions.


So basically I think this match is gonna be judged today since it is the second day, plus Akatsuki still left a couple of things un-countered but still has a chance assuming he gets a post in today.

But really, I can just kick it up a notch if its not enough for you guys.

`;)

Kuromaki
08-07-2010, 11:33 AM
Although he does focus on using genjutsu, he would want to stick to using MS as he's bloodlusted and wants to use his best techniques first.I suppose.
Backing up the Gamabunta bit, which you still haven't countered Akatsuki, Shackling Stakes is very short range, and every time its been used the target was a few feet away at best.True, and Minato would know so he'd obviously try to avoid it.

And if Minato reacts fast enough, he could warp it away, but as I've discussed countless times FTG should still move faster than Itachi's eyes can follow. FTG is really a loophole to this "Equal speed" stuff.If he does spam FTG, Itachi couldn't keep track of his movements because he'd be instantly appearing at various places, so yeah.

It also took him like a panel to prepare a seal against Menacing Ball, so if he sees Itachi straining his eye he'd know something was up.

Yeah probably, but they are bloodlusted as I said so Minato would still stay pretty focused on hurting Itachi. Plus I did list all of Gamabunta's techniques which would make it overkill. He probably would but Ammy getting on him first would mean he goes out first.

Assuming Minato knows basic jutsus, he can also use Combination Transformation but really it might not do much.With the lack of feats on that it's safe to stick to what he has shown, he still has a pretty good chance since Gamabunta is beast.

Plus I don't see how Itachi avoids Food Cart Destroyer with ease, if he can at all.

Phoenix Wright
08-07-2010, 11:53 AM
If he does spam FTG, Itachi couldn't keep track of his movements because he'd be instantly appearing at various places, so yeah.

Yeah.

It also took him like a panel to prepare a seal against Menacing Ball, so if he sees Itachi straining his eye he'd know something was up.

Yeah then he'd be ready for whatever's coming, he'd know all about Ammy and know what it was, and what to do.

He probably would but Ammy getting on him first would mean he goes out first.

Well not necessarily, if he gets Amaterasu'd somehow which I really don't see happening, and spreads it onto Itachi, they're both gonna have something to deal with plus Minato could just use Rasengan so Itachi would die before him.

With the lack of feats on that it's safe to stick to what he has shown, he still has a pretty good chance since Gamabunta is beast.

Yeah, and that still hasn't been countered yet xD

Plus I don't see how Itachi avoids Food Cart Destroyer with ease, if he can at all.

Yeah. But Itachi himself should be ready for it since he knows what Minato can do as well, although if he does survive, Minato would be ready and be far enough away and the Gamabunta strategy would succeed.

Really I can't make this much clearer.

Akatsuki, when/if you counter, what about the Gamabunta bit? Thanks. `;)

Kuromaki
08-07-2010, 11:59 AM
Well not necessarily, if he gets Amaterasu'd somehow which I really don't see happening, and spreads it onto Itachi, they're both gonna have something to deal with plus Minato could just use Rasengan so Itachi would die before him.
Oh right, Minato could make the process of Itachi dying quicker, but Itachi can do the same thing. Since his Rasengan is pretty quick and larger than the regular kind, though, Itachi would have to be able to dodge.

This is all assuming that Minato can't FTG away from it or warp it away, and possibly onto Itachi himself.

Yeah. But Itachi himself should be ready for it since he knows what Minato can do as well, although if he does survive, Minato would be ready and be far enough away and the Gamabunta strategy would succeed.
Yep, but isn't Bunta summoned right on top of the target with that technique? If so Itachi would have difficulty countering it, Bunta was able to hold off the Kyubi which was charging Menacing Ball when he was summoned.

Phoenix Wright
08-07-2010, 12:09 PM
Oh right, Minato could make the process of Itachi dying quicker, but Itachi can do the same thing. Since his Rasengan is pretty quick and larger than the regular kind, though, Itachi would have to be able to dodge.

This is all assuming that Minato can't FTG away from it or warp it away, and possibly onto Itachi himself.

Yeah, exactly. But with FTG really, wouldn't be able to run forever.

Yep, but isn't Bunta summoned right on top of the target with that technique? If so Itachi would have difficulty countering it, Bunta was able to hold off the Kyubi which was charging Menacing Ball when he was summoned.

Yeah, that's true, also either way really, whether it crushes Itachi or not is an advantage for Minato.

And now, we wait, for Akatsuki X.

I should try to post like Nero Does because it looks awesome even though its hard to Read sometimes. `;)

Akatsuki X
08-07-2010, 10:44 PM
Geez guys, way to make me feel gang-banged up the ass here. xD

I'm just gonna reply to all of you at once, since doing it separately would take far too much effort.

Anyways, I guess I'll begin.

Phoenix, Sasono'o is not a genjutsu, so I stand by my claim that Tsukuyumi is Itachi's most powerful genjutsu. The sword of sealing is not part of Sasono'o, it is one of it's weapons, so Sasono'o in itself is not a genjutsu, it's weapon is.

We don't really know the range of Shackling Stakes, so it is hard to say if Itachi can hit him with it or not with their presented distance. If Minato is caught in it, I see no way f him to break out of it, since he has no outside source of chakra to break the genjutsu. I then stand by my argument that Itachi can proceed to use Tsukuyumi after using Shackling Stakes, to immobilize him, and then kill him with the genjutsu.

A was able to sense and avoid Sasuke's Ammy for the most part, thou we don't know the difference in Itachi and Sasuke's reaction speed in using Amaterasu, also with the fact that Sasuke was already probably exhausted from avoiding A's previous attacks.

In the end, A was still unable to avoid Sasuke's Amaterasu, as it caught his arm on fire, which he had to proceed to rip off. And I doubt that Minato has better reaction speeds than Itachi.

Wright, with your theory of bloodlusted, than Minato wouldn't use FTG, he would just run up to Itachi and try to kill him. Bloodlusted just means that they will do anything to kill each other, it does not mean that they fight like idiots. They just fight with more intensity.

I also stand by my argument that Minato would not know that Itachi is using Amaterasu, unless he can notice Itachi's eyes to start bleeding from 50 meters away,

But your both right, with FTG, it would be difficult for Itachi to be able to use Ammy, even thou it has very little prep time, it would still be long enough for Minato too kill him. But I don't see why Itachi couldn't use shadow clones to distract Minato. Full knowledge means that Itachi and his clones could keep track of where he throw's his kunai's and make sure to avoid those areas. Pretty simple.

Alright, since you are so persistently having me respond to the Gamabunta strategy, I suppose I have no choice.

First off, I don't really see how Minato would have the time to summon Gamabunta.
I know biting your hands and slamming them into the ground doesn't take much time, but neither does Amaterasu. I doubt Minato can use FTG and summon at the same time, so while he is summoning he could be vulnerable to Amaterasu or genjutsu.

Thou, I suppose it would be possible for him to use FTG to teleport far away from Itachi, then summon Gama, then teleport back.

If this is the case, then I don't think Gamabunta would be too much of a problem for Itachi. It's probably that Itachi could use Tsukuyumi against Gama, considering that Gama has no knowledge of the technique, and thus, would not avoid looking at his eyes.

And considering that Tsukuyumi takes a mere second or two for the user, then Itachi would be able to use it, without fear of being too open too attack by Minato. and assume that he is using it.

Kuromaki
08-07-2010, 11:05 PM
Geez guys, way to make me feel gang-banged up the ass here. xD Uh... errr...

I'm just gonna reply to all of you at once, since doing it separately would take far too much effort. Okay.

Anyways, I guess I'll begin. Great.

Phoenix, Sasono'o is not a genjutsu, so I stand by my claim that Tsukuyumi is Itachi's most powerful genjutsu. The sword of sealing is not part of Sasono'o, it is one of it's weapons, so Sasono'o in itself is not a genjutsu, it's weapon is. Which is what he probably meant by "Susanoo's genjutsu effect"

We don't really know the range of Shackling Stakes, so it is hard to say if Itachi can hit him with it or not with their presented distance. If Minato is caught in it, I see no way f him to break out of it, since he has no outside source of chakra to break the genjutsu. I then stand by my argument that Itachi can proceed to use Tsukuyumi after using Shackling Stakes, to immobilize him, and then kill him with the genjutsu. In all of the times it has been used, the target hasn't been too far away, so it's reasonable to assume that it is a short range genjutsu. Minato may be able to escape it if he has Gamabunta out, though. And isn't it a bit OOC for Itachi to use Tsukuyomi after that?

Either way, Tsuki doesn't kill, but Minato would indeed be incapacitated if he were to be caught. Minato knows this, so he'd be smart to stay away.

A was able to sense and avoid Sasuke's Ammy for the most part, thou we don't know the difference in Itachi and Sasuke's reaction speed in using Amaterasu, also with the fact that Sasuke was already probably exhausted from avoiding A's previous attacks. They still have to strain their eyes.

In the end, A was still unable to avoid Sasuke's Amaterasu, as it caught his arm on fire, which he had to proceed to rip off. And I doubt that Minato has better reaction speeds than Itachi. A was able to Shunshin away from it, he got caught cause he punched through Sasuke's Enton.

Wright, with your theory of bloodlusted, than Minato wouldn't use FTG, he would just run up to Itachi and try to kill him. Bloodlusted just means that they will do anything to kill each other, it does not mean that they fight like idiots. They just fight with more intensity. I agree.

I also stand by my argument that Minato would not know that Itachi is using Amaterasu, unless he can notice Itachi's eyes to start bleeding from 50 meters away, He probably can.

But your both right, with FTG, it would be difficult for Itachi to be able to use Ammy, even thou it has very little prep time, it would still be long enough for Minato too kill him. But I don't see why Itachi couldn't use shadow clones to distract Minato. Full knowledge means that Itachi and his clones could keep track of where he throw's his kunai's and make sure to avoid those areas. Pretty simple. Read the previous anti-clone methods.

Alright, since you are so persistently having me respond to the Gamabunta strategy, I suppose I have no choice. Yay!

First off, I don't really see how Minato would have the time to summon Gamabunta.
I know biting your hands and slamming them into the ground doesn't take much time, but neither does Amaterasu. I doubt Minato can use FTG and summon at the same time, so while he is summoning he could be vulnerable to Amaterasu or genjutsu. Minato was quick enough to summon Bunta to stop the Kyubi from forming a menacing ball.

Thou, I suppose it would be possible for him to use FTG to teleport far away from Itachi, then summon Gama, then teleport back. Yessir.

If this is the case, then I don't think Gamabunta would be too much of a problem for Itachi. It's probably that Itachi could use Tsukuyumi against Gama, considering that Gama has no knowledge of the technique, and thus, would not avoid looking at his eyes. What reason would Bunta have to look in Itachi's eyes? That being said, Minato could just tell Bunta not to look in his eyes, for the sake of safety, just in case.

And considering that Tsukuyumi takes a mere second or two for the user, then Itachi would be able to use it, without fear of being too open too attack by Minato. and assume that he is using it. He needs eye contact though.
In blue, I'mma reply tomorrow.

Phoenix Wright
08-08-2010, 12:55 AM
Geez guys, way to make me feel gang-banged up the ass here. xD

Nice Description.

I'm just gonna reply to all of you at once, since doing it separately would take far too much effort.

That's sorta what I figured.

Anyways, I guess I'll begin.

Phoenix, Sasono'o is not a genjutsu, so I stand by my claim that Tsukuyumi is Itachi's most powerful genjutsu. The sword of sealing is not part of Sasono'o, it is one of it's weapons, so Sasono'o in itself is not a genjutsu, it's weapon is.

But knowing there's the genjutsu effect of Susano'o that is by far more powerful, that Itachi has under his possesion still doesn't count for anything?

We don't really know the range of Shackling Stakes, so it is hard to say if Itachi can hit him with it or not with their presented distance. If Minato is caught in it, I see no way f him to break out of it, since he has no outside source of chakra to break the genjutsu. I then stand by my argument that Itachi can proceed to use Tsukuyumi after using Shackling Stakes, to immobilize him, and then kill him with the genjutsu.

No, its been proven short range, every single time it was used, in no way could it be used in a longer range especially while keeping his distance on Gamabunta.

A was able to sense and avoid Sasuke's Ammy for the most part, thou we don't know the difference in Itachi and Sasuke's reaction speed in using Amaterasu, also with the fact that Sasuke was already probably exhausted from avoiding A's previous attacks.

Sasuke's is by far more superior as he stopped it when it was burning Karin and has Enton techniques.

In the end, A was still unable to avoid Sasuke's Amaterasu, as it caught his arm on fire, which he had to proceed to rip off. And I doubt that Minato has better reaction speeds than Itachi.

Although, Sasuke's is far superior, and Minato has FTG which is similar to A's technique.

Wright, with your theory of bloodlusted, than Minato wouldn't use FTG, he would just run up to Itachi and try to kill him. Bloodlusted just means that they will do anything to kill each other, it does not mean that they fight like idiots. They just fight with more intensity.

And where's your proof? It also means they try to fight using their best technique, that they have shown at the very least. It's not a theory, its what bloodlust is.

I also stand by my argument that Minato would not know that Itachi is using Amaterasu, unless he can notice Itachi's eyes to start bleeding from 50 meters away,

But where's the proof it can move that far? Plus he can just FTG away if he's about to get hit with Ammy, or warp it away like we've discussed.

But your both right, with FTG, it would be difficult for Itachi to be able to use Ammy, even thou it has very little prep time, it would still be long enough for Minato too kill him. But I don't see why Itachi couldn't use shadow clones to distract Minato. Full knowledge means that Itachi and his clones could keep track of where he throw's his kunai's and make sure to avoid those areas. Pretty simple.

With the shadow clones shall Minato have not summoned Gamabunta then they'll be crushed and gone. Countless times things over and over have shown Shadow Clones extremely low durability.

Alright, since you are so persistently having me respond to the Gamabunta strategy, I suppose I have no choice.

Finally.

First off, I don't really see how Minato would have the time to summon Gamabunta.
I know biting your hands and slamming them into the ground doesn't take much time, but neither does Amaterasu. I doubt Minato can use FTG and summon at the same time, so while he is summoning he could be vulnerable to Amaterasu or genjutsu.

When Itachi has full knowledge as well its still gonna be difficult for him to attempt to stop Minato in any way. Gamabunta appears and Itachi's attempt is voided useless, then he has the burden to carry that he still has to escape from being crushed.

Thou, I suppose it would be possible for him to use FTG to teleport far away from Itachi, then summon Gama, then teleport back.

Sure, why not?

If this is the case, then I don't think Gamabunta would be too much of a problem for Itachi. It's probably that Itachi could use Tsukuyumi against Gama, considering that Gama has no knowledge of the technique, and thus, would not avoid looking at his eyes.

So you don't think Minato would say something like "Avoid eye contact?" Even you said they won't fight as idiots. I really doubt you read much on the Gamabunta bit granted you didn't have a true counter from the start and planned on avoiding the subject.

And considering that Tsukuyumi takes a mere second or two for the user, then Itachi would be able to use it, without fear of being too open too attack by Minato. and assume that he is using it.


And why couldn't Gamabunta breaking Minato out of genjutsu be reversed? It isn't that hard to disrupt chakra or the like, Sakura and Chiyo did it.

Although Tsukiyomi takes little to no time Gamabunta would most likely have knowledge or Minato would quickly note something of the sort and Itachi still has to deal with Minato himself and teleporting with FTG, plus the fact that Gamabunta still stands tall.

It was also implied Minato leaves a Kunai at his home so he can teleport there when need be, not saying he'd do that during the fight for insta win, but I'm saying he leaves one on Gamabunta and warps back there when need be.

That's all for now, I can counter what you put tomorrow I gotta go to sleep.

I might even kick it up a notch tomorrow provided the match isn't judged and over with. `;)

Shikamaru Nara
08-08-2010, 06:52 AM
It will be. I'll be working on judging it today. I'm just letting you know, if I'm not done with the judging and there is a post that isn't complete, it's because I took a break or something. Depending on how long it actually is, it may or may not take more than a day.

Kuromaki
08-08-2010, 08:43 AM
But where's the proof it can move that far? Plus he can just FTG away if he's about to get hit with Ammy, or warp it away like we've discussed.Actually, yes Ammy is a short range jutsu. If you don't believe me look at databook translations (yes, I know about the whole databooks suck thing but this isn't about stats or the effects of jutsu or anything like that).

When Itachi has full knowledge as well its still gonna be difficult for him to attempt to stop Minato in any way. Gamabunta appears and Itachi's attempt is voided useless, then he has the burden to carry that he still has to escape from being crushed.
True, and how does Itachi stop himself from getting crushed?

And why couldn't Gamabunta breaking Minato out of genjutsu be reversed? It isn't that hard to disrupt chakra or the like, Sakura and Chiyo did it.Yes, and since Gamabunta is an intelligent summon this is possible.

Also, if Itachi focuses on Gamabunta, Minato can attack him.

It was also implied Minato leaves a Kunai at his home so he can teleport there when need be, not saying he'd do that during the fight for insta win, but I'm saying he leaves one on Gamabunta and warps back there when need be. Default BG rules state that they can not leave the battlefield so that's out. The rest I pretty much agree with.

I had to get other points in because I couldn't last night. P:

Phoenix Wright
08-08-2010, 10:07 AM
Actually, yes Ammy is a short range jutsu. If you don't believe me look at databook translations (yes, I know about the whole databooks suck thing but this isn't about stats or the effects of jutsu or anything like that).
True, and how does Itachi stop himself from getting crushed?
Yes, and since Gamabunta is an intelligent summon this is possible.

Also, if Itachi focuses on Gamabunta, Minato can attack him.
Default BG rules state that they can not leave the battlefield so that's out. The rest I pretty much agree with.

I had to get other points in because I couldn't last night. P:

Yeah I figured Ammy was as such.

You did agree about pretty much everything so I'm not gonna counter it, I want to note your last paragraph.

That's not what I was saying, I meant that he could leave a kunai on Gama and teleport to the other ones and be able to come back. I was stating the fact that he does so to reinforce my point about Gamabunta.

I noted about BG Defaults above, I said something like Minato might even be able to warp Itachi away?

Well my dad's currently on the laptop and won't give it to me so if I end up having to counter anymore soon you guys should try and mess me up.

If I end up losing because of my phone I'm gonna be pissed. >_<

Kuromaki
08-08-2010, 11:08 AM
Yeah I figured Ammy was as such.

You did agree about pretty much everything so I'm not gonna counter it, I want to note your last paragraph.

That's not what I was saying, I meant that he could leave a kunai on Gama and teleport to the other ones and be able to come back. I was stating the fact that he does so to reinforce my point about Gamabunta.

I noted about BG Defaults above, I said something like Minato might even be able to warp Itachi away?

Well my dad's currently on the laptop and won't give it to me so if I end up having to counter anymore soon you guys should try and mess me up.

If I end up losing because of my phone I'm gonna be pissed. >_<
Yeah at that range Minato should be able to react or prepare for it.

Oh, okay.

Minato might be able to warp Itachi away, but that's if he comes close towards him, like the Menacing Ball did, and that would put Minato at risk. I figured that warping one of Itachi's attacks away, and sending it back at him would be much safer.

Phoenix Wright
08-08-2010, 11:21 AM
Yeah at that range Minato should be able to react or prepare for it.

Oh, okay.

Minato might be able to warp Itachi away, but that's if he comes close towards him, like the Menacing Ball did, and that would put Minato at risk. I figured that warping one of Itachi's attacks away, and sending it back at him would be much safer.
Yeah he should be able to.

Got my laptop back, this is a good thing.

Yeah probably. It was just an afterthought but hey, its a possibility. He did warp something as large as the menacing ball pretty far away.

Shikamaru Nara
08-10-2010, 05:17 AM
I'm going to judge this a different way, instead of by post, I'm going to judge it by personal skills in this debate. That way I don't have to worry about a giant ass post.

Phoenix Wright: You know when you said that Itachi didn't have a lot of power feats? I disagree. He was able to keep up in hand to hand combat with Sasuke who has shown avid power feats.

Remember when you said that he relies mostly on Genjutsu? (Itachi) Amaterasu: A black fire that has been said to burn for seven days if not stopped by the user and can burn through water or weaker fires.

Clone Great Explosion: Itachi creates a clone, and it can explode at will.

Demonic Illusion: Burning Paper Body: Itachi uses a genjutsu that makes the opponent's body into paper and burns it throughout the whole body. This makes hand seal use difficult.

Demonic Illusion: Mirror Heaven and Earth Change: Itachi reverses genjutsu used on him, though the extent of this ability is unknown.

Demonic Illusion: Shackling Stakes: If an opponent tries to enter Itachi's mind, he can create a genjutsu that creates stakes to pierce an opponent's body.

Dusk Crow Genjutsu: Itachi can trap an opponent in an illusion, surrounding the opponent with a flock of crows.

Ephemeral: Itachi creates a genjutsu causing crows to fly from his body. The opponent will then be attacked by shuriken an be mindraped with illusions of their closest friends appearing on their body.

Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique: After making hand seals, Itachi shoots a large ball of fire from his mouth.

Fire Release: Phoenix Immortal Fire Technique: Itachi shoots multiple fireballs at the opponent. This can be used to hide shuriken or to divert the opponent's attention.

Shadow Clone Technique: Itachi can make multiple replicas of himself that can assist him in battle. However, they will disappear after one solid hit.

Susanoo: Summons a giant creature while using the power of the Mangekyo Sharingan which can defend against attacks. Itachi's Susanoo has a sword that can send the opponent into an eternal genjutsu after piercing them, and a shield that can block hill busters.

Tsukuyomi: A powerful Mangekyo genjutsu that allows Itachi to show his victims anything he pleases(as opposed to a specific set off occurences like with most other Genjutsu). Itachi is skilled enough that he can alter his victim's perceptions of time and space, making a few seconds seem like three days.

Water Clone Technique: Itachi can create a replica of himself using water chakra. Has only been shown when near a water source.

Water Release: Water Fang Bullet: Many spikes made out of water appear below the opponent and damage them. Requires a water source.

Out of these jutsu, he has an ample amount of Ninjutsu, not to mention that he does indeed have some Taijutsu. This means that your debate is a little on the side that since your first post is based on assumptions, that may or may not be true, it could flop over the debate. This is why you might not want to focus on longevity, instead, the quality. The 1,000 char. rule was just to get in enough feats on each side.

You made a very good argument with few mistakes. One of the main factors of that argument was the fact that you gave advantages to both of the combatants, which means that your post wasn't 1 sided. The debate you gave was solid, as well as your counters to other posts by Kuro, X, and Sasuke.

Sasuke:


The only problem with your overall debate was the fact that you only posted one time, which could be your downfall. Since your debate was countered, I'd consider that you lost because you couldn't counter. Period.

You said that Itachi didn't really have Taijutsu feats, and again, I disagree. He was in par with Sasuke's Taijutsu when he was fighting him, trying to lose, and when he was sick. So this isn't a valid assumption in my opinion.

Much of what you said sounded a lot like what Phoenix said, and due to the fact that it did sound that way, I don't have much more to say.

Overall, for a one time debate, you had a good base, but I think you focused a bit more on the Minato side, which made your debate a bit one-sided in my opinion. Of course, it can't be helped debating for the person you think is going to lose, and the person you think will win. You just have to take under consideration what the other character's abilities are, regardless. Posting them would've proven to me that you did that.

Kuromaki: Not much to say, huh? You took under consideration both combatants abilities unlike your partner which made your debate dynamic. You had flexable ideas of what could and couldn't happen, or what might or might not happen. You said that Itachi has the Taijutsu feats that he needed, but that's where you kinda lost a few points. xD Your partner said he didn't have any, so the debate had a small crack.

I saw many page references throughout your debate which proved your point to the fullest. This made your debates hard to counter because you had the proof right out of the manga.

You were able to find small chinks and technicalities in your opponent's posts which made you a big factor in this debate.

Overall, you made up for your partner's shortcomings.

Akatsuki X:

Your posts were kind of a mess. You did take a bold move by disagreeing, I give you props for that, but the way you disgreed made no sense at all. You just weren't giving reasons, that I, myself, thought were valid. You may try to get other judges on this one, I was kinda on the fence.

Based on what I have said, the winner is Phoenix Wright. Although I saw a few flaws, his posts were quite informative, and if they're long, they're bound to have mistakes, so I didn't use that against him. He had overall good counters, and he was anxious from the get-go. All contestants did well.

IF Akatsuki wants another judge to do it, I have no issues with that because I was just too unsure. So, for NOW Phoenix wins.

Phoenix Wright
08-10-2010, 12:22 PM
I'm going to judge this a different way, instead of by post, I'm going to judge it by personal skills in this debate. That way I don't have to worry about a giant ass post.

Phoenix Wright: You know when you said that Itachi didn't have a lot of power feats? I disagree. He was able to keep up in hand to hand combat with Sasuke who has shown avid power feats.

I said that though.

Remember when you said that he relies mostly on Genjutsu? (Itachi) Amaterasu: A black fire that has been said to burn for seven days if not stopped by the user and can burn through water or weaker fires.

But I also talked about genjutsu, which he is mostly known for.

Clone Great Explosion: Itachi creates a clone, and it can explode at will.

While countering Kuro's post I talked about this.

Demonic Illusion: Burning Paper Body: Itachi uses a genjutsu that makes the opponent's body into paper and burns it throughout the whole body. This makes hand seal use difficult.

This is another low level genjutsu, which is in fact a genjutsu. This really didn't do much on Kakashi and he wouldn't use it being bloodlusted.

Demonic Illusion: Mirror Heaven and Earth Change: Itachi reverses genjutsu used on him, though the extent of this ability is unknown.

Minato doesn't have genjutsu so why would I even bring it up?

Demonic Illusion: Shackling Stakes: If an opponent tries to enter Itachi's mind, he can create a genjutsu that creates stakes to pierce an opponent's body.

Talked about this.

Dusk Crow Genjutsu: Itachi can trap an opponent in an illusion, surrounding the opponent with a flock of crows.

This really doesn't have much significance in this fight as he's bloodlusted and whatnot.

Ephemeral: Itachi creates a genjutsu causing crows to fly from his body. The opponent will then be attacked by shuriken an be mindraped with illusions of their closest friends appearing on their body.

We mentioned this too iirc.

Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique: After making hand seals, Itachi shoots a large ball of fire from his mouth.

Talked about it.

Fire Release: Phoenix Immortal Fire Technique: Itachi shoots multiple fireballs at the opponent. This can be used to hide shuriken or to divert the opponent's attention.

We faintly noted this one but Minato acts the same with this as he does with Fireball.

Shadow Clone Technique: Itachi can make multiple replicas of himself that can assist him in battle. However, they will disappear after one solid hit.

Talked about.

Susanoo: Summons a giant creature while using the power of the Mangekyo Sharingan which can defend against attacks. Itachi's Susanoo has a sword that can send the opponent into an eternal genjutsu after piercing them, and a shield that can block hill busters.

Banned.

Tsukuyomi: A powerful Mangekyo genjutsu that allows Itachi to show his victims anything he pleases(as opposed to a specific set off occurences like with most other Genjutsu). Itachi is skilled enough that he can alter his victim's perceptions of time and space, making a few seconds seem like three days.

With full knowledge, we talked about it and it probably won't work out in Itachi's favor.

Water Clone Technique: Itachi can create a replica of himself using water chakra. Has only been shown when near a water source.

Well there isn't one.

Water Release: Water Fang Bullet: Many spikes made out of water appear below the opponent and damage them. Requires a water source.

No water source. Even if there was he can warp it away.

Out of these jutsu, he has an ample amount of Ninjutsu, not to mention that he does indeed have some Taijutsu. This means that your debate is a little on the side that since your first post is based on assumptions, that may or may not be true, it could flop over the debate. This is why you might not want to focus on longevity, instead, the quality. The 1,000 char. rule was just to get in enough feats on each side.

No, not true. Where does my post show any "assumptions" per say? I did note a lot of the techniques you listed but he'll be focusing on the more powerful ones such as Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi, maybe Shackling stakes, and so on.

You made a very good argument with few mistakes. One of the main factors of that argument was the fact that you gave advantages to both of the combatants, which means that your post wasn't 1 sided. The debate you gave was solid, as well as your counters to other posts by Kuro, X, and Sasuke.

Thanks.

Also about Kuromaki's post, I did counter that which you made no note of really, just a simple note at the end, and continued to do so as well. As I did say it was a reiteration of my post and there was only one or two things she listed that I didn't which were things Itachi probably wouldn't use, and things that I countered.

Also along the way I added more ideas which you made no note of, and my "mistakes" you talked about in no way did I make them alone, along with the others who said basically the same thing I said.

If Kuro saved the match because of her partner, I don't exactly have a partner to "save" with my long post. Really I don't see where my "mistakes" are than anyone else's weren't.

Am I starting to see bias or is it just me? You focused on what I did wrong regardless of my long, informative post, while you focused on what Kuro and, even Sasuke did right, while not just Sasuke's post sounded a lot like mine.

Hmm. Didn't want it to sound mean.. Oh well, can't help it when I'm trying to defend my position. :geg

Akatsuki X
08-10-2010, 08:38 PM
Fair enough judging.
Congrats Wright.

Now......

MAKE MA SIGGY!!!!

The 1st Hokage
08-10-2010, 08:59 PM
Akatsuki, if you want another judge, ask SageyKins, because I'm not rejudging this.

Akatsuki X
08-10-2010, 09:02 PM
Well, I admit when I am beaten, and it appears to be that way.
Of course, if you think that maybe I would have a different chance otherwise, I suppose.

Where can I find him?

Phoenix Wright
08-11-2010, 12:49 AM
Wait huh?

Akatsuki do you just want your siggy or something? xD

Where does it say I win I'm confused.

I think Akatsuki is trying to trick me into giving him his siggy early :LOS

EDIT: Zomgwut, I just read the edit >_>

Well I suppose that's only temporary as Shikamaru said but whatevs.

I guess I can give you the siggy hang on let me upload it.

EDIT2: Alright, here it is. Meh, I dunno if its too good at the moment but I can touch it up later, plus I cropped part of the left side off on accident and didn't undo it but it still looks fine. If you want it different in any way it doesn't matter.

Credit and or Reps? =3 (Lol I've like never used that face in my life, maybe like twice but those were important occasions in which my life depended on me using it)

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/9939/akatsukixhellsing.png

Akatsuki X
08-11-2010, 01:04 PM
Sickness, thanks Phoenix. xD

Phoenix Wright
08-11-2010, 01:11 PM
Your welcome =P

On topic: I still lol at the fact you only were only wanting of your siggy.

"Oh, I lost, cool the contest is over! Can I have mah siggy?!"

I dunno how its on topic but yeah.

Shikamaru Nara
08-11-2010, 01:39 PM
Wait huh?

Akatsuki do you just want your siggy or something? xD

Where does it say I win I'm confused.

I think Akatsuki is trying to trick me into giving him his siggy early :LOS

EDIT: Zomgwut, I just read the edit >_>

Well I suppose that's only temporary as Shikamaru said but whatevs.

I guess I can give you the siggy hang on let me upload it.

EDIT2: Alright, here it is. Meh, I dunno if its too good at the moment but I can touch it up later, plus I cropped part of the left side off on accident and didn't undo it but it still looks fine. If you want it different in any way it doesn't matter.

Credit and or Reps? =3 (Lol I've like never used that face in my life, maybe like twice but those were important occasions in which my life depended on me using it)


http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/9939/akatsukixhellsing.png


We've been working on getting ahold of them. (First and I.)

Can I have mine too? xD

Phoenix Wright
08-11-2010, 01:47 PM
We've been working on getting ahold of them. (First and I.)

Can I have mine too? xD
Getting a hold of what? *Is confused*

Wait you asked for one? xD

Crap -_-

Mind helping me out here? `;)

Shikamaru Nara
08-11-2010, 01:49 PM
Getting a hold of what? *Is confused*

Wait you asked for one? xD

Crap -_-

Mind helping me out here? `;)

Getting ahold of the rep givers, nobody is responding. xD I don't think they really remembered about this.

I asked for a siggy that was a gansta with shades that says "Shikamaru Nara"

Phoenix Wright
08-11-2010, 02:04 PM
Oh yeah xD

Oh yeah xD

EDIT: So is this match officially over? Because I have a serious speech planned for if I win.

Shikamaru Nara
08-12-2010, 01:48 PM
It is because X didn't want a new judge.

The 1st Hokage
08-12-2010, 01:54 PM
Go ahead with that speech. I better be thanked in it!

Kuromaki
08-12-2010, 01:56 PM
WHAAAAAT? I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS. NEW JUDGE PLEASE!



Nah I'm kidding. Congrats on a job well done Mr. Wright. :]

Yellow Flash
08-12-2010, 07:54 PM
Whooooo! Go Phoenix! Yeah!...

Since this is over...

*click*