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View Full Version : Sasuke Missing Nin Plothole/Tsunade is a failure of a Hokage


mrsticky005
07-30-2010, 08:51 PM
In Volume 21, Sasuke leaves the village on his quest for revenge.
However with the information we now know about Konoha this
shouldn't have had happened. Not as easily as it did at least.

Here's what I mean...

In Volume 20 we see Sasuke sitting in a tree and the Sound Four watching
him from a distance. The Sound Four wait to attack when they see Kakashi
go and lecture Sasuke.This takes place in Konoha as later Genma says
to the Sound Four that they were on their way back from Konoha. After the Kakashi lecture the Sound Four go to Sasuke and beat him up and then later in Volume 21 Sasuke leaves the village but not before encountering Sakura who he knocks out cold to keep her from reporting his absence too soon.


Here's the problem with all that.

In Volume 45 we learn that Konoha has a spherical barrier that can
detect anyone entering the village. Ok, so sure it may operate only
one way rather than detecting both those who come and go but
that still doesn't explain how the Sound Four were able to get in
without being detected. Though perhaps like Itachi, Orochimaru
knew the jutsu code to get in the village. Yet still, there was
more than plenty of forewarning that Orochimaru and the
Sound Four would come for Sasuke. Given that the Sound
Four were seen in Konoha before there should have been
increased security to keep an watch for them. That doesn't
necessarily mean someone to fight them but rather to inform
others that the Sound Four is nearby...and this should be done
way before they get to Konoha. Volume 45 showed that Pain
was quite on the outskirts of Konoha and had to eliminate the
Border Patrol before making his way into the village though
because he did not know the jutsu code he was somewhat detected.
Anywho, there was plenty of warning that Orochimaru would come
for Sasuke. Not only is the attacker known but so is the "victim".
Sasuke just waltzed out of the village and only Sakura tried to stop
him...ON THE ONLY ROAD OUT OF KONOHA. That's right. There's
only lousy road that needed to be kept watch on and Sasuke
was able to mosey down it on the path to being a missing-nin.
Tsunade was Hokage (and sadly still is) when all this happened.
As Hokage and someone not living under a rock she should know
that Konoha was invaded by her former team mate Orochimaru who
wanted Sasuke and yet she took absolutely zero precautions to
prevent such a disaster and yes it is a disaster when your village's
only Sharingan user is in enemy hands. The Zabuza Arc and
the Kidnap Hinata flashback showed us enough that ninjas
themselves hold too many secrets to be allowed to roam free.
Then to make matters worse, Tsunade sends a team comprimsed
of one Chuunin and four Genin to retrieve Sasuke and if necessary
fight the Sound Four. Even if Tsunade was unable to know the
Sound Four took down Jonin (which was some really lame writing.)
She should know well enough how strong Orochimaru is and know
that one Chuunin and four Genin are not going to be able to take
him down. Did Tsunade just assume that Orochimaru was going
to just sit and wait for Sasuke? What if he got impatient and
decided to go get Sasuke himself? Or even if Kabuto went instead?
Instead of sending more qualified applicants she sends Shikamaru
(Chuunin) Naruto, Neji, and Choji on what amounts to a suicide
mission. They would have been killed was it not for the reinforcements
from the Sand Village and from a wounded Rock Lee who was able
to sneak out of the hospital where Tsunade is watching over him
and let me repeat something...HE WAS WOUNDED for crying out loud.
As awesome as Rock Lee is it just shows how incompetent Tsunade is.
Then after Shikamaru returns with his injured comrades, Tsunade has
the nerve to call him a failure. Yes, Shikamaru DID fail but what the
heck was she expecting? Sasuke Retrieval was at least a B Rank
Mission but she treated it like a D or a C rank at best. Pathetic.
For three years, Tsunade does NOTHING to retrieve Sasuke.
The only one who does a darn thing about it is Naruto and Team 7.
Without Naruto, Tsunade would probably just give up and let Sasuke
roam around free. And yet again she sends only Naruto, Sakura,
and Yamato to go retrieve Sasuke who is with Orochimaru and Kabuto.
Not that they are a bad team but she should have sent back up.
Danzo sent Sai Shaft (on a secret mission to kill Sasuke) to go
along with Naruto, Yamato, and Sakura. Sai Shaft technically
fails his mission but it's more due to his being talked no jutsu-ed
from Naruto and learning about "Bonds". At least, Danzo has
the excuse of having limited resources (as well trying to
not make too much noise within Konoha) whereas Tsunade has much greater resources and can make more noise (within Konoha)
as she is Hokage. People hate on Naruto too much for always
trying to retrieve Sasuke...but at least he's trying to do something
about it unlike Tsunade and as I said before it's a big deal when
your village's ONLY sharingan is now in enemy hands. A REALLY big deal.

Can't wait until Naruto becomes Hokage. Or anyone with competence.

Why did you have to wake up from that coma Tsunade? `#(

naruto_jock
07-30-2010, 08:55 PM
The sound four were barrier specialists....maybe that's how they were able to get through the barrier or because Orochimaru knew the codes like how Itachi did when he came after the Third's death. This is a good argument and I'm only trying to think about it. XD

mrsticky005
07-30-2010, 09:01 PM
The sound four were barrier specialists....maybe that's how they were able to get through the barrier or because Orochimaru knew the codes like how Itachi did when he came after the Third's death. This is a good argument and I'm only trying to think about it. XD

I see.


Still they were seen in Konoha before.
So it's not like there was plenty
of forewarning to watch out for them.

Any way you slice it Tsunade did not take enough
measures to prevent Sasuke from being a missing-nin.

At least in Itachi's case he was Anbu who has the MS.

naruto_jock
07-30-2010, 09:06 PM
I see.


Still they were seen in Konoha before.
So it's not like there was plenty
of forewarning to watch out for them.

Any way you slice it Tsunade did not take enough
measures to prevent Sasuke from being a missing-nin.

At least in Itachi's case he was Anbu who has the MS.

That's true and Tsunade really didn't set up any precautions with Sasuke either. I also find it interesting how she thinks "I knew something like this might happen".....If she was thinking about, why didn't she do anything?

mrsticky005
07-30-2010, 09:08 PM
Your writinf is too long. The sound Four got in because Orochimaru gave them the codes and they were good with barrier Jutsu.

They took Sasuke out because the Barrier only detects incoming people


Does it ever say that Orochimaru knew the code? I'm only guessing he did.

Anywho even if all that is true it still doesn't excuse the fact that there
was plenty of warning before this whole fiasco went down and yet
nothing was done about it to prevent such a disaster.

It's like if Osama Bin Laden announced
he was going to kidnap the First Lady months in advance...

and the U.S Government did nothing to prevent such a disaster.

mrsticky005
07-30-2010, 09:12 PM
That's true and Tsunade really didn't set up any precautions with Sasuke either. I also find it interesting how she thinks "I knew something like this might happen".....If she was thinking about, why didn't she do anything?

Because she is a failure of a Hokage. She sleeps on the job.
Sure it's done for a comedic effect but really it's insulting
to the Hokage title. The 3rd may have had his "fun time"
but at least he was keen on what was going on in the village.
The 3rd Hokage took notice of Kabuto and knew something
was up and had extra security at the Chuunin Exams.

naruto_jock
07-30-2010, 09:13 PM
Does it ever say that Orochimaru knew the code? I'm only guessing he did.

Anywho even if all that is true it still doesn't excuse the fact that there
was plenty of warning before this whole fiasco went down and yet
nothing was done about it to prevent such a disaster.

It's like if Osama Bin Laden announced
he was going to kidnap the First Lady months in advance...

and the U.S Government did nothing to prevent such a disaster.


Hmmmm, something tells me this already happened with Osama-the ass wipe-Bin Laden under the Bush administration.

mrsticky005
07-30-2010, 09:16 PM
Hmmmm, something tells me this already happened with Osama-the ass wipe-Bin Laden under the Bush administration.


Uh oh Conspiracy Theory Central!!:lol:

naruto_jock
07-30-2010, 09:23 PM
Because she is a failure of a Hokage. She sleeps on the job.
Sure it's done for a comedic effect but really it's insulting
to the Hokage title. The 3rd may have had his "fun time"
but at least he was keen on what was going on in the village.
The 3rd Hokage took notice of Kabuto and knew something
was up and had extra security at the Chuunin Exams.

I think Tsunade was just introduced in the manga as a goal for Naruto to master Rasengan as he and Jiraiya-sama were trying to find a new hokage. She might play a new role soon to maybe explain what happened to the Senju clan, but if that doesn't happen I expect her to either die in the war or to become a secondary character.

Uh oh Conspiracy Theory Central!!:lol:

Please don't get me started. That man alone crippled us into the next century maybe. :lol:

mrsticky005
07-30-2010, 09:28 PM
I think Tsunade was just introduced in the manga as a goal for Naruto to master Rasengan as he and Jiraiya-sama were trying to find a new hokage. She might play a new role soon to maybe explain what happened to the Senju clan, but if that doesn't happen I expect her to either die in the war or to become a secondary character.



Please don't get me started. That man alone crippled us into the next century maybe. :lol:

Maybe Kishimoto actually IS Sexist and
Tsunade is a warning against female leaders.

*dodges pitchforks from angry feminists*

Let's hope Sasuke or Madara does Konoha a favor by killing Tsunade. :cool:

Don't worry I won't. That's debate forum material.

naruto_jock
07-30-2010, 09:36 PM
Maybe Kishimoto actually IS Sexist and
Tsunade is a warning against female leaders.

*dodges pitchforks from angry feminists*

Let's hope Sasuke or Madara does Konoha a favor by killing Tsunade. :cool:

Don't worry I won't. That's debate forum material.

Who knows? It wouldn't be the first time.....right? :lol:/jk

To be perfectly honest with you, I really want to know why the Senju clan isn't in the Naruto story like the Hyuugas or the Uchihas. And since we know Tsunade is a Senju, I'm expecting her to explain to Naruto what happened since they're both clansmen (or clanspeople).

It really is debate forum material, but this topic is too good though. XD

mrsticky005
07-30-2010, 09:40 PM
Who knows? It wouldn't be the first time.....right? :lol:/jk

To be perfectly honest with you, I really want to know why the Senju clan isn't in the Naruto story like the Hyuugas or the Uchihas. And since we know Tsunade is a Senju, I'm expecting her to explain to Naruto what happened since they're both clansmen (or clanspeople).

It really is debate forum material, but this topic is too good though. XD


I imagine it's something like this...

There aren't many Senjus because they married other clans.
Over the generations there would be less pure Senju because
of this. Naruto is a Senju decedent but he is not a pure Senju.

The Uchiha on the other hand most likely married within the clan
and hence why there were so many Uchiha before they were annihilated.


Someone can explain all the details. Tsunade just needs to die. `!:)

naruto_jock
07-30-2010, 09:45 PM
I imagine it's something like this...

There aren't many Senjus because they married other clans.
Over the generations there would be less pure Senju because
of this. Naruto is a Senju decedent but he is not a pure Senju.

The Uchiha on the other hand most likely married within the clan
and hence why there were so many Uchiha before they were annihilated.


Someone can explain all the details. Tsunade just needs to die. `!:)

If you're right on the Senjus, then maybe Tsunade tells Naruto about it and as soon as she does it Madara kills her for something the Senju did a long time ago since she is the last "true" Senju left.

lord of puppets
07-30-2010, 09:47 PM
you did leave out kiba but not important.maybe she could of done more but the village was at half it's strength level,and they still had shinobi on missions.i guess she could have sent kakashi with them in the begining but how much of a difference would it have made,they still had the battles seperated.but i don't consider her a fail as hokage.

mrsticky005
07-30-2010, 09:48 PM
If you're right on the Senjus, then maybe Tsunade tells Naruto about it and as soon as she does it Madara kills her for something the Senju did a long time ago since she is the last "true" Senju left.


Madara killing Tsunade would be peaches and cream! `:P

Heck anyone killing Tsunade would be peaches and cream.

ZOMBIE JIRAYIA COMES BACK FROM THE DEAD AND WITH A VENGANCE! :mrgreen:

How far the Senju have fallen...

mrsticky005
07-30-2010, 09:51 PM
you did leave out kiba but not important.maybe she could of done more but the village was at half it's strength level,and they still had shinobi on missions.i guess she could have sent kakashi with them in the begining but how much of a difference would it have made,they still had the battles seperated.but i don't consider her a fail as hokage.


Sir Kiba Duke of Inuzuka would be most disappointed in me, wouldn't he?

It's great how Kishimoto creates these excuses of "other shinobi were
on missions". Missions doing what? If it wasn't Akatsuki based missions
then it wasn't more important than getting Sasuke back...or dead
before Orochimaru got the Sharingan.
Genins should be the ones rebuilding the village

zerosameri
07-30-2010, 09:52 PM
I was going to make this thread so long ago but never did. :lol:

In a nut shell from then to now it's all PNJ


It was said that Sasuke was under close watch
Only ANBU knew the barrier code a long with some Uchiha's
There's a berrier around Konoha to watch who go in and out
they shouldn't have got in
Kakashi hinted that Sasuke may leave the village, and knew that he may leave
When Sasuke left they gave some time before sending Naruto and his weak gennin team. Wail they could of sent ANBU and brought Sasuke back with no trouble
There are people guarding Konoha at all time
The road into Konoha all ways has 2 Jonin on guard every day and night
They knew that Orochimaru wanted Sasuke
They knew that Orochimaru all ready started to get Sasuke
When Shikamaru and them came back she did not send another team or ANBU to help a failur gennin.

did I summarize your long post just about right?

mrsticky005
07-30-2010, 09:53 PM
I was going to make this thread so long ago but never did. :lol:

In a nut shell from then to now it's all PNJ


It was said that Sasuke was under close watch
Only ANBU knew the barrier code a long with some Uchiha's
There's a berrier around Konoha to watch who go in and out
they shouldn't have got in
Kakashi hinted that Sasuke may leave the village, and knew that he may leave
When Sasuke left they gave some time before sending Naruto and his weak gennin team. Wail they could of sent ANBU and brought Sasuke back with no trouble
There are people guarding Konoha at all time
The road into Konoha all ways has 2 Jonin on guard every day and night
They knew that Orochimaru wanted Sasuke
They knew that Orochimaru all ready started to get Sasuke
When Shikamaru and them came back she did not send another team or ANBU to help a failur gennin.

did I summarize your long post just about right?

Good summary. Rep up to you!

naruto_jock
07-30-2010, 09:56 PM
Madara killing Tsunade would be peaches and cream! `:P

Heck anyone killing Tsunade would be peaches and cream.

ZOMBIE JIRAYIA COMES BACK FROM THE DEAD AND WITH A VENGANCE! :mrgreen:

How far the Senju have fallen...

I think that would be an interesting battle to be honest with you......man who can't be touched againtst the woman with supperior strength. Very interesting. XD

Yeah, then maybe Jiraiya drags her ass back to his grave then. XDDD

It's really sad since we haven't seen them at all really.

mrsticky005
07-30-2010, 09:58 PM
I think that would be an interesting battle to be honest with you......man who can't be touched againtst the woman with supperior strength. Very interesting. XD

Yeah, then maybe Jiraiya drags her ass back to his grave then. XDDD

It's really sad since we haven't seen them at all really.


Madara would pwn...even without EMS.

Lady Tsunade
07-30-2010, 09:59 PM
Hold up. So you would like the plot to have been crap? Sasuke escaping the Village is plot. And pretty causes most of the events in part 2. No Sasuke leaving Village = No Plot. And if you really think about it. A small Genin roaming the streets at night? Hardly going to catch the guards eye.

And from I can gather from what you're saying is that you would've preferred some random group of people who have never been introduced in the show properly go out and find Sasuke. Even though Tsunade had no idea it was the Sound 4 who would be guarding Sasuke. Since he only grouped up with them in the forest after he left the Village. And she would therefore have no need to send high power ninja. I should also remind you that Shikamaru chose his team. Not Tsunade. And when he failed his mission. She didn't say 'YOU FAIL SHIKAMARU, GTFO ' xDD She actually comforted him and said that he tried his best etc. If you'd re-read that chapter. And regardless of how strong she knew Orochimaru was, Orochimaru was nowhere near the Village. Otherwise ANBU would catch him and attack. And obviously, with him being sick and all. That wasn't going to go very well. So it really wouldn't have mattered how strong she thought Orochimaru was. Since Sasuke was nowhere near him. Unless she feared a Genin? Also, Rock Lee didn't escape while Tsunade was watching over him. She was treating him. But she wasn't there when he escaped. She was presumably in the hospital somewhere, or in her Tower.

And the reason Tsunade does nothing to retrieve Sasuke? Plot. She sends 20 high powered Jonin to kill him. He gets raped. Plot over. The storyline becomes crap. The whole thing about having faith in the younger generation, she trusted Naruto to bring Sasuke back. Lol You really hate Tsunade don't you? Obviously she wouldn't have let Sasuke roam around free if Naruto wasn't there. Shes not retarded. She is Hokage after all. Again, she sends Team 7 to get Sasuke because of plot. If she sent some random Jonin. The storyline would suck. Some randomers try to kill Sasuke. Orochimaru and Kabuto. And having no knowledge on him either. Be reminded that Naruto and Sakura are stronger than most of the currently fodder Jonin. And they were both trained by Kage Rank Shinobi. They're not weak. Neithers Yamaato. As well as that they had knowledge on all of Sasukes abilities. There isn't a better team actually. Danzo was selfish and wanted the title of Hokage for himself. He wanted to spy on Tsunade at all costs. And was not loyal to the Village at all . Hence why he didn't help the Village against the invasion of Pein. Danzo was nothing but a disrespectful , and unloyal man. Unworthy of what he always wanted - to be Hokage.

You say Tsunade slacks off for comical relief. Which is true. You never saw Hiruzen working 24/7 either did you? He was often walking around the Village. Admiring the views. Or looking through his crystal ball and spying on people. Whats the difference. They're both techniically 'slacking off' they're both strong loyal Kages none the less.

Its all Plot. If the story had what you seem to want. It would suck xD Or imo it would.

-

naruto_jock
07-30-2010, 10:07 PM
Madara would pwn...even without EMS.

No question about that. But I wonder if there's anything left for Tsunade to teach Sakura because that girl really needs an upgrade, or else I'm going to consider her the "I can't do anything, but I do cause emotional distress for everyone" character. XDDD

Hold up. So you would like the plot to have been crap? Sasuke escaping the Village is plot. And pretty causes most of the events in part 2. No Sasuke leaving Village = No Plot. And if you really think about it. A small Genin roaming the streets at night? Hardly going to catch the guards eye.

And from I can gather from what you're saying is that you would've preferred some random group of people who have never been introduced in the show properly go out and find Sasuke. Even though Tsunade had no idea it was the Sound 4 who would be guarding Sasuke. Since he only grouped up with them in the forest after he left the Village. And she would therefore have no need to send high power ninja. I should also remind you that Shikamaru chose his team. Not Tsunade. And when he failed his mission. She didn't say 'YOU FAIL SHIKAMARU, GTFO ' xDD She actually comforted him and said that he tried his best etc. If you'd re-read that chapter. And regardless of how strong she knew Orochimaru was, Orochimaru was nowhere near the Village. Otherwise ANBU would catch him and attack. And obviously, with him being sick and all. That wasn't going to go very well. So it really wouldn't have mattered how strong she thought Orochimaru was. Since Sasuke was nowhere near him. Unless she feared a Genin? Also, Rock Lee didn't escape while Tsunade was watching over him. She was treating him. But she wasn't there when he escaped. She was presumably in the hospital somewhere, or in her Tower.

And the reason Tsunade does nothing to retrieve Sasuke? Plot. She sends 20 high powered Jonin to kill him. He gets raped. Plot over. The storyline becomes crap. The whole thing about having faith in the younger generation, she trusted Naruto to bring Sasuke back. Lol You really hate Tsunade don't you? Obviously she wouldn't have let Sasuke roam around free if Naruto wasn't there. Shes not retarded. She is Hokage after all. Again, she sends Team 7 to get Sasuke because of plot. If she sent some random Jonin. The storyline would suck. Some randomers try to kill Sasuke. Orochimaru and Kabuto. And having no knowledge on him either. Be reminded that Naruto and Sakura are stronger than most of the currently fodder Jonin. And they were both trained by Kage Rank Shinobi. They're not weak. Neithers Yamaato. As well as that they had knowledge on all of Sasukes abilities. There isn't a better team actually. Danzo was selfish and wanted the title of Hokage for himself. He wanted to spy on Tsunade at all costs. And was not loyal to the Village at all . Hence why he didn't help the Village against the invasion of Pein. Danzo was nothing but a disrespectful , and unloyal man. Unworthy of what he always wanted - to be Hokage.

You say Tsunade slacks off for comical relief. Which is true. You never saw Hiruzen working 24/7 either did you? He was often walking around the Village. Admiring the views. Or looking through his crystal ball and spying on people. Whats the difference. They're both techniically 'slacking off' they're both strong loyal Kages none the less.

Its all Plot. If the story had what you seem to want. It would suck xD Or imo it would.

-

It's true, with out this happening we wouldn't be here talking about such things. Would we? XDDD

zerosameri
07-30-2010, 10:08 PM
Good summary. Rep up to you!
It's all so said Tsunade is a failure Hokage is even sense of the word. She clearly the weakest, and not to head smart either. Plus she onlu had a semi-kinda-big moment, sure she saved a few people, but she was in a coma after that for a long wail.

-Minato he fought Madara and was dieing he did 3 HUGE jutsu's
-The 3rd fought Orochimari and the 1st, 2nd Hokage on of the strongest Hokage's
-The 1st Fought Madara head on and lived, he also fought him again but Madara had the kyuubi this time and was said to have died then.
-The 2nd was have said to of had died in a Great Ninja war, he was said to have the best Water jutsu's around

And now we have Tsunade someone that's weak is known for nothing and went into a coma after words :lol:

3littlepigs
07-30-2010, 10:13 PM
Anywho even if all that is true it still doesn't excuse the fact that there
was plenty of warning before this whole fiasco went down and yet
nothing was done about it to prevent such a disaster.

I just want to point out that Sasuke is not the center of the universe and honestly Tsunade became Hokage at a time when Konoha was weak so there were priorities. You can also blame the 3rd and the two elders for failing to prevent Oro's attack in the first place, not only that but except making Kakashi put on the seal on Sasuke it's not like Sarutobi did much to prevent Oro taking Sasuke away.

The 3rd Hokage took notice of Kabuto and knew something
was up and had extra security at the Chuunin Exams.
Sorry but just asking who he was doesn't mean he figured out who Kabuto was working for and the extra security wasn't even that much to be honest....even Kakashi was disappointed at how little was done to prevent that incident even with previous warning.

narulvr
07-30-2010, 10:17 PM
Death to Tsunade! just kiddin but what ad's insult to injury is the sound four wearn't even that strong, and bcuz she didn't do anythin years ago danzo is dead (even though he was a traitor) and saskes just runnin around killin people, he's like a japanese dc sniper

naruto_jock
07-30-2010, 10:19 PM
I just want to point out that Sasuke is not the center of the universe and honestly Tsunade became Hokage at a time when Konoha was weak so there were priorities. You can also blame the 3rd and the two elders for failing to prevent Oro's attack in the first place, not only that but except making Kakashi put on the seal on Sasuke it's not like Sarutobi did much to prevent Oro taking Sasuke away.

Sorry but just asking who he was doesn't mean he figured out who Kabuto was working for and the extra security wasn't even that much to be honest....even Kakashi was disappointed at how little was done to prevent that incident even with previous warning.


I understand that and we have to unfortunately face the fact that Sasuke at the begining was the center of the "Naruto Universe" since this was the guy that Naruto wanted to beat.
Also, there's no way of trying to figure out who a spy works for like Kabuto since he practically gathered info on many villages' ninjas and knowing how his old village was destroyed. So there wasn't really a whole lot old man third could've done.

Wooster
07-30-2010, 10:26 PM
I think the barrier just didn't exist then. That's it.

zerosameri
07-30-2010, 10:29 PM
I think the barrier just didn't exist then. That's it.The sadist part of all, it was there even before Tsuande :lol:

naruto_jock
07-30-2010, 10:30 PM
I think the barrier just didn't exist then. That's it.

How do you make it sound so easy Woo-man?

3littlepigs
07-30-2010, 10:33 PM
I understand that and we have to unfortunately face the fact that Sasuke at the begining was the center of the "Naruto Universe" since this was the guy that Naruto wanted to beat.
Also, there's no way of trying to figure out who a spy works for like Kabuto since he practically gathered info on many villages' ninjas and knowing how his old village was destroyed. So there wasn't really a whole lot old man third could've done.
Ok then why is Tsunade any different? let's leave aside the fact that even if we don't like it it was all for the sake of the plot but since you seem to think Sarutobi couldn't have done much more (even with him having ages of experience as Hokage when compared to Tsunade and him knowing Oro just as well because of their relationship) Should she just have gone after Sasuke herself? She sent who she thought was right for the job and who she had available and that was it.
I think the barrier just didn't exist then. That's it.
No, the barrier existed because Itachi and Kisame both went in when the barrier was put only because of Itachi having been an ANBU and all they could get in easily. If the barrier existed at that time we can assume it still existed a while later when the Sound 4 came to Konoha. By the way all this was explained by Pain just before he attacked Konoha...

mrsticky005
07-30-2010, 10:35 PM
Hold up. So you would like the plot to have been crap?

In some ways it already kinda is.

Sasuke escaping the Village is plot.

It's not a problem that he escapes. It's that he escapes so easily.

And pretty causes most of the events in part 2. No Sasuke leaving Village = No Plot.

As explained it's how easily he escaped not that the escaped.


And if you really think about it. A small Genin roaming the streets at night? Hardly going to catch the guards eye.

Of course this same Genin just happens to be the ONLY Uchiha
left in Konoha and was specifically targeted by Orochimaru.

And from I can gather from what you're saying is that you would've preferred some random group of people who have never been introduced in the show properly go out and find Sasuke.

It would have made a lot more sense. Naruto would have gone anyways.

Even though Tsunade had no idea it was the Sound 4 who would be guarding Sasuke.

They were with Orochimaru when he attacked the village.
Anyone with half a brain would have put them on a watch-list.

Since he only grouped up with them in the forest after he left the Village. And she would therefore have no need to send high power ninja.

The mission failed. That's enough reason she needed higher power ninja.

I should also remind you that Shikamaru chose his team. Not Tsunade.

Tsunade said he could only pick available Genin.

And when he failed his mission. She didn't say 'YOU FAIL SHIKAMARU, GTFO ' xDD She actually comforted him and said that he tried his best etc.

I'll give you half credit for this one because she does say we fail...
Still she limited his resources to only a few available Genin.


If you'd re-read that chapter. And regardless of how strong she knew Orochimaru was, Orochimaru was nowhere near the Village.

That's true he wasn't.

Otherwise ANBU would catch him and attack.

Apparently not as they don't seem to do much of anything.

And obviously, with him being sick and all. That wasn't going to go very well. So it really wouldn't have mattered how strong she thought Orochimaru was.

Even being sick he was able to fight well. Orochimaru is a threat.

Since Sasuke was nowhere near him. Unless she feared a Genin?

She should know that Orochimaru is the leader of the Sound Village
and would use his best resources to bring Sasuke to his village.


Also, Rock Lee didn't escape while Tsunade was watching over him. She was treating him. But she wasn't there when he escaped. She was presumably in the hospital somewhere, or in her Tower.

He was still under her care and supervision. Like I said...he was injured.


And the reason Tsunade does nothing to retrieve Sasuke? Plot. She sends 20 high powered Jonin to kill him. He gets raped. Plot over.The storyline becomes crap. The whole thing about having faith in the younger generation, she trusted Naruto to bring Sasuke back.

As true as that is she still fails as Hokage.


Lol You really hate Tsunade don't you?

Yes

Obviously she wouldn't have let Sasuke roam around free if Naruto wasn't there.

Actually she would. Naruto is the one who kept on with retrieving
Sasuke. He trained and trained and trained so he could be strong enough.

Tsunade does nothing during that time.


Shes not retarded. She is Hokage after all.

That's like saying James Buchanan
was not a failure because he was president after all.

Again, she sends Team 7 to get Sasuke because of plot.

Excuses. Excuses.

If she sent some random Jonin. The storyline would suck.

Actually it would be pretty awesome.

Some randomers try to kill Sasuke. Orochimaru and Kabuto.

It would make more sense than just Naruto and Friends going/

And having no knowledge on him either.

No knowledge? Orochimaru was from Konoha. Tsunade knew him.

Be reminded that Naruto and Sakura are stronger than most of the currently fodder Jonin.

Due to crappy writing they are.

And they were both trained by Kage Rank Shinobi.

In Sakura's case it's because Tsunade made the Kage rank a joke.

They're not weak.

Yes they were.

Neithers Yamaato.

It's hard to say for him as Kishimoto refuses to give him a good fight.

As well as that they had knowledge on all of Sasukes abilities. There isn't a better team actually.

Like I said they aren't a bad team...but back up.

Danzo was selfish and wanted the title of Hokage for himself. He wanted to spy on Tsunade at all costs. And was not loyal to the Village at all . Hence why he didn't help the Village against the invasion of Pein. Danzo was nothing but a disrespectful , and unloyal man. Unworthy of what he always wanted - to be Hokage.

You can question his morality all you want but he's leagues more
competent than Tsunade could ever hope to be. Danzo is really
more the one who fails because of plot.


You say Tsunade slacks off for comical relief. Which is true. You never saw Hiruzen working 24/7 either did you? He was often walking around the Village. Admiring the views. Or looking through his crystal ball and spying on people. Whats the difference. They're both techniically 'slacking off' they're both strong loyal Kages none the less.

the third Hokage used his crystal ball to keep watch.
It wasn't entirely just for his own amusement.
Tsunade's sleeping on the job does absolutely no good.



Its all Plot. If the story had what you seem to want. It would suck xD Or imo it would.

Well you probably would hate it as I would have killed off Tsunade by now.

-


in black

mrsticky005
07-30-2010, 10:43 PM
I just want to point out that Sasuke is not the center of the universe


Sasuke was the last Uchiha left in Konoha. He had the Sharingan.

Sasuke in enemy hands is very bad news.

3littlepigs
07-30-2010, 10:58 PM
Sasuke was the last Uchiha left in Konoha. He had the Sharingan.

Sasuke in enemy hands is very bad news.
And you don't think Tsunade knew that? She even said so herself but she also said there were priorities and for once she was right. What was done was done...Sasuke was already past the border, they lost track of him, and Konoha was weak. She did what she thought was right...didn't Sarutobi also failed to kill Oro? You just really dislike Tsunade...it's like me with Sasuke. I can't see anything positive at this point...

mrsticky005
07-30-2010, 11:08 PM
And you don't think Tsunade knew that? She even said so herself but she also said there were priorities and for once she was right. What was done was done...Sasuke was already past the border, they lost track of him, and Konoha was weak. She did what she thought was right...didn't Sarutobi also failed to kill Oro? You just really dislike Tsunade...it's like me with Sasuke. I can't see anything positive at this point...

Yes she did know that and that's why
it's inexcusable Sasuke got away so easily.

Sarutobi failed to kill Orochimaru out of mercy...not incompetence.


I do dislike Tsunade because she makes the Hokages a complete joke.

Also this isn't a "why couldn't she do more to save Sasuke" thread.
If Tsunade had to resort to sending people to kill Sasuke that
would be fine with me. But she did not do any of this.

Tsunade should have gave an order to have Sasuke be taken
back to the village dead or alive. But instead she settles for
alive or just fail to bring him back at all and do nothing much about it.


Heck Tsunade should have gone after Sasuke herself.

The counselors could have taken care of the village while she was gone.

But nope.
Tsunade has to stay and sleep at her desk and not get paperwork done.

3littlepigs
07-30-2010, 11:26 PM
Yes she did know that and that's why
it's inexcusable Sasuke got away so easily.

Sarutobi failed to kill Orochimaru out of mercy...not incompetence.


I do dislike Tsunade because she makes the Hokages a complete joke.

Also this isn't a "why couldn't she do more to save Sasuke" thread.
If Tsunade had to resort to sending people to kill Sasuke that
would be fine with me. But she did not do any of this.

Tsunade should have gave an order to have Sasuke be taken
back to the village dead or alive. But instead she settles for
alive or just fail to bring him back at all and do nothing much about it.


Heck Tsunade should have gone after Sasuke herself.

The counselors could have taken care of the village while she was gone.

But nope.
Tsunade has to stay and sleep at her desk and not get paperwork done.
She makes the Hokages a complete joke only because people are always comparing her to the previous Hokages and the thing is they're all different, different people different skills and different ways to "protect" Konoha.

She did know and that's why she took action the moment she found out and it's not like she put Naruto or Choji as leaders of the platoon...Shikamaru was chosen and I'm sorry but he's great at what he does even if he's lazy. He chose the team and Tsunade only suggested he bring Naruto for the obvious plot reason but also because she trusted Naruto after what he did for her and because no one would want to bring Sasuke back more than someone close to him and Kakashi wasn't around and obviously Sakura was completely useless.

Sarutobi not killing Oro wasn't mercy...it was incompetence. He couldn't fulfill his job as Hokage and get rid of Oro before it was too late....when you compare that with Itachi killing his own clan to protect his village and only managing to not kill on person close to him I don't even want to talk about Tsunade's incompetence.

She didn't just "settle" she couldn't do anything else! What it's not like she had a frigging Cristal ball like Sarutobi to spy on Sasuke or like she put a chip on him to locate him. He was gone...no trace of him. The person closest to the scene and who even had a chance of tracking him was Kakashi with Pakkun but he chose to bring Naruto back to the village.

So the Hokage should just go out just like that in the middle of a crisis and risk going into enemy's territory? oh that would have been great if Tsunade got killed not long after Sarutobi...Hokages don't just go out for whatever reason that's why they have all the rest of the shinobi under their command which is what she did. She gave an order, a mission and the platoon failed. What did you want her to do? not settle and kill Shikamaru and the rest?

And you're right this wasn't a "why couldn't she do more to save Sasuke" thread but people made it into one and so I gave my opinion on what was going on.;)

mrsticky005
07-30-2010, 11:55 PM
She makes the Hokages a complete joke only because people are always comparing her to the previous Hokages and the thing is they're all different, different people different skills and different ways to "protect" Konoha.

She did know and that's why she took action the moment she found out and it's not like she put Naruto or Choji as leaders of the platoon...Shikamaru was chosen and I'm sorry but he's great at what he does even if he's lazy. He chose the team and Tsunade only suggested he bring Naruto for the obvious plot reason but also because she trusted Naruto after what he did for her and because no one would want to bring Sasuke back more than someone close to him and Kakashi wasn't around and obviously Sakura was completely useless.

Sarutobi not killing Oro wasn't mercy...it was incompetence. He couldn't fulfill his job as Hokage and get rid of Oro before it was too late....when you compare that with Itachi killing his own clan to protect his village and only managing to not kill on person close to him I don't even want to talk about Tsunade's incompetence.

She didn't just "settle" she couldn't do anything else! What it's not like she had a frigging Cristal ball like Sarutobi to spy on Sasuke or like she put a chip on him to locate him. He was gone...no trace of him. The person closest to the scene and who even had a chance of tracking him was Kakashi with Pakkun but he chose to bring Naruto back to the village.

So the Hokage should just go out just like that in the middle of a crisis and risk going into enemy's territory? oh that would have been great if Tsunade got killed not long after Sarutobi...Hokages don't just go out for whatever reason that's why they have all the rest of the shinobi under their command which is what she did. She gave an order, a mission and the platoon failed. What did you want her to do? not settle and kill Shikamaru and the rest?

And you're right this wasn't a "why couldn't she do more to save Sasuke" thread but people made it into one and so I gave my opinion on what was going on.;)

She makes it a joke because it's obvious she's only Hokage
so Kishimoto can have an excuse for his plot---her incompetence.

Shikamaru is brilliant. Tsunade gave him nothing to work with
and he did a pretty darn good job even if he did fail.

No it was mercy. He couldn't bring himself to kill his student.
Also there's no real indication that Itachi killed his clan.
It could have very easily been all Madara's doing.
Tsunade is incompetent.

Yep she can't do anything else because she's a terrible Hokage.
She should step down and give a better ninja the job.
If you remember Kakashi went out on his own and Tsunade
tried to stop him.

Yes the Hokage should do that when it's only Uchiha has
gone missing and likely with the Sound Ninja. However
since you don't care for Sasuke (which is fair. He is a jerk.)
Imagine it as if Naruto was the one who left the village.
Don't you think it would be bad news if Naruto the host
of the Nine Tails fell into enemy hands? Shouldn't
the Hokage do everything in his/her power to prevent that?
Tsunade would have let Naruto waltz right out of the village.


Basically I'm with the Raikage when he talked about how
letting Sasuke roam around free was just a bunch of fail.


Oh and for the excuse of Tsunade not having enough man
power because the village needed to be repaired...

When Danzo was Candidate Hokage the village was in a WORSE
situation yet when he got the letter from Raikage requesting
Sasuke's disposal it didn't take Danzo very long to know that
Sasuke needed to be eliminated and taken care of. Heck Danzo
knew Sasuke was a problem and tried to kill him long before.
Danzo even fought Sasuke himself and tried to stop him.
While Danzo did fail, he at least put forth the effort and
also he had the disadvantage of having to keep a low profile.

Also Danzo suffers terribly from plot.

PlatonicZombie
07-31-2010, 12:14 AM
Meh. I didn't really read every single thing in this read (though I did scan through it). I'm going to side with the Tsunade supporters. I've seen some posts that aren't exactly answered. Mainly that she has faith in Naruto. Just because he failed to begin with, she did say she believed Naruto would become Hokage, so it would make sense if she entrusted in him to deal with Sasuke; furthermore, to say Tsunade is the most incompitent Hokage isn't true. The Third Hokage I think is much more failed than Tsunade; he was responsible for Oro when he was younger, and we all know how that turned out; the Fourth stopped the nine tails attack, not the Third; he failed to stop Oro's experiments, and he failed to defeat Oro; and wasn't the Uchiha massacre under his watch as well?
Kishi isn't as sexist, he's ageist!!!!!! The Third, Tsunade.... Doesn't he know that he too will turn old!? `:shock:

mrsticky005
07-31-2010, 01:40 AM
Meh. I didn't really read every single thing in this read (though I did scan through it). I'm going to side with the Tsunade supporters. I've seen some posts that aren't exactly answered. Mainly that she has faith in Naruto. Just because he failed to begin with, she did say she believed Naruto would become Hokage, so it would make sense if she entrusted in him to deal with Sasuke; furthermore, to say Tsunade is the most incompitent Hokage isn't true. The Third Hokage I think is much more failed than Tsunade; he was responsible for Oro when he was younger, and we all know how that turned out; the Fourth stopped the nine tails attack, not the Third; he failed to stop Oro's experiments, and he failed to defeat Oro; and wasn't the Uchiha massacre under his watch as well?
Kishi isn't as sexist, he's ageist!!!!!! The Third, Tsunade.... Doesn't he know that he too will turn old!? `:shock:

She has faith in Naruto. Big whoop. So does everyone else and they are the sheer level of incompetence that she is. The difference is that
with the 3rd he was more between a rock and a hard place than
being incompetent. The Uchiha massacre happened because
otherwise there would be a coup d'etat and he tried to stop it.
The third did fail to kill Orochimaru but at least he try to right his wrong.
Tsunade could have stopped Sasuke but didn't think it was important enough of an issue which she was clearly wrong about.

nine tailed sasuke
07-31-2010, 01:41 AM
tsunade is only good for really hot fan art ;)

mrsticky005
07-31-2010, 01:49 AM
tsunade is only good for really hot fan art ;)

Honestly I wish they showed her old and how she really is.

Bulldog
07-31-2010, 01:56 AM
I agree tsunade isint that great of a hokage I mean look what happend with pain it took to long to realize hey someones attacking the village.

If she wanted to keep sasuke from going rouge then they wouldnt have just let him roam around like that.

SimpleGenin
07-31-2010, 02:12 AM
honestly alot of what happen happened because of plot.. thats all it is to it.. if sasuke was retrieved somehow, it would be a whole different story from what we know today.. and about Tsunade, she's good in her own rights. You cant compare her to the rest of the kage because they are all good in their own way.. Tell me how can the previous kage protect the villegers the way Tsunade did when Pain attacked? She gave all her energy to prevent most of the villegers from dying. Do you really think Nagato would have been able to bring everyone back to life knowing that he died from reviving SOME of the villegers? dont even bring Danzo in to this because even if he was more quick to decide on sasuke's fate, he did hide while others fought pain.. he reacted quickly because he has his own loyal followers.. followers that hid from Pain. and 3rd Hokage actually has a bigger fault with this sasuke thing.. as i recall, Itachi asked the 3rd to protect Sasuke, which he was unable to do from the very beginning.. he wasnt their when sasuke was facing Oro for the first time.. way to keep a promise to Itachi right? they all have their faults.

mrsticky005
07-31-2010, 02:15 AM
I agree tsunade isint that great of a hokage I mean look what happend with pain it took to long to realize hey someones attacking the village.

If she wanted to keep sasuke from going rouge then they wouldnt have just let him roam around like that.

Not only that but she try to be smart with Pain and annoyed him so he destroyed the village AND found Naruto's location anyways.
Good job Tsunade.

She should have had Yamato track Sasuke back then.

SimpleGenin
07-31-2010, 02:17 AM
I agree tsunade isint that great of a hokage I mean look what happend with pain it took to long to realize hey someones attacking the village.

If she wanted to keep sasuke from going rouge then they wouldnt have just let him roam around like that.
and how do you think its any different with the first invasion.. the 3rd was actually lucky that Orochimaru was the one attacking the village instead of all 6 path of Pain.. Do you think the village would have survived if it was pain the attacked in the first invasion? highly unlikely.. the villagers would have all died from pain's attack..

SimpleGenin
07-31-2010, 02:19 AM
Not only that but she try to be smart with Pain and annoyed him so he destroyed the village AND found Naruto's location anyways.
Good job Tsunade.

She should have had Yamato track Sasuke back then.
ok what if Yamato did Track sasuke.. and than the two comes face to face.. then what..?

mrsticky005
07-31-2010, 02:41 AM
honestly alot of what happen happened because of plot.. thats all it is to it.. if sasuke was retrieved somehow, it would be a whole different story from what we know today.. and about Tsunade, she's good in her own rights. You cant compare her to the rest of the kage because they are all good in their own way.. Tell me how can the previous kage protect the villegers the way Tsunade did when Pain attacked? She gave all her energy to prevent most of the villegers from dying. Do you really think Nagato would have been able to bring everyone back to life knowing that he died from reviving SOME of the villegers? dont even bring Danzo in to this because even if he was more quick to decide on sasuke's fate, he did hide while others fought pain.. he reacted quickly because he has his own loyal followers.. followers that hid from Pain. and 3rd Hokage actually has a bigger fault with this sasuke thing.. as i recall, Itachi asked the 3rd to protect Sasuke, which he was unable to do from the very beginning.. he wasnt their when sasuke was facing Oro for the first time.. way to keep a promise to Itachi right? they all have their faults.


Tsunade tries to heal the village with Katsuyu. She's so great. Right?
Not really. It doesn't really matter that she used Katsuyu or not.
Pain would have just used another Almighty Push and finish the job.
Luckily Naruto came to save the day. And really she arguably caused
Pain to be mad enough to want to destroy the village...rather than
his original goal of finding Nine Tails location...which he did anyways.
If it wasn't for Naruto defeating Pain then Pain would just keep
destroying the village until everyone was dead. If it wasn't for
Nagato's sacrifice many villagers would stay dead or injured.

Yep, Danzo did hide during the Pain Invasion but I never said
he was good. There's a difference between being good and
being competent. Tsunade is more or less good.
Danzo is not. Tsunade is incompetent. Danzo is competent.
Tsunade wanted to recall Naruto. Seemed like a good idea
because Naruto came anyways and beat Pain.
However nobody knew how strong Naruto had become
and BEFORE he trained in Sage Mode he was clearly
no match for Pain. Danzo made the smart move
by killing the messenger frog and not leading Naruto
to the guy trying to capture him. Tsunade took a
gamble and she got lucky as she often seems to do.

Tsunade is an goody two shoe incompetent who gets lucky.

Danzo is cruel and competent who falls victim to plot device
(Sasuke had to get a power up in battle to beat him)

mrsticky005
07-31-2010, 02:43 AM
ok what if Yamato did Track sasuke.. and than the two comes face to face.. then what..?


The point of tracking him is to know his location.
Yamato could have relayed the information to Konoha.
Even if Sasuke made it to Orochimaru they would know
where his hideout was.

Bulldog
07-31-2010, 03:03 AM
Not only that but she try to be smart with Pain and annoyed him so he destroyed the village AND found Naruto's location anyways.
Good job Tsunade.

She should have had Yamato track Sasuke back then.


See this is what I am talking thats another point she got all macho and pain got pissed. When someone stronger then you is threating to blow up the village try to be rational.

and to the poster below I wasnt big on the third eithier hes more of pacifist. I liked danzo.

mrsticky005
07-31-2010, 03:13 AM
See this is what I am talking thats another point she got all macho and pain got pissed. When someone stronger then you is threating to blow up the village try to be rational.

and to the poster below I wasnt big on the third eithier hes more of pacifist. I liked danzo.


What annoys me is that in Part 1 I didn't see the 3rd as a weakling
but now it seems like Kishimoto is doing just that to make Tsunade
not seem as bad or make Danzo or Madara's plans work better.

Bulldog
07-31-2010, 03:15 AM
What annoys me is that in Part 1 I didn't see the 3rd as a weakling
but now it seems like Kishimoto is doing just that to make Tsunade
not seem as bad or make Danzo or Madara's plans work better.


Ive been seeing that also and with other characters btw I reped you up.

mrsticky005
07-31-2010, 03:18 AM
Ive been seeing that also and with other characters btw I reped you up.


which characters?

Bulldog
07-31-2010, 03:29 AM
which characters?


masashi seems to have changed like statistics on chars and all sorts of history as the series goes on I dont feel like getting into right now cause it would be off topic.

SimpleGenin
07-31-2010, 03:35 AM
Tsunade tries to heal the village with Katsuyu. She's so great. Right?
Not really. It doesn't really matter that she used Katsuyu or not.
Pain would have just used another Almighty Push and finish the job.
Luckily Naruto came to save the day. And really she arguably caused
Pain to be mad enough to want to destroy the village...rather than
his original goal of finding Nine Tails location...which he did anyways.
If it wasn't for Naruto defeating Pain then Pain would just keep
destroying the village until everyone was dead. If it wasn't for
Nagato's sacrifice many villagers would stay dead or injured.

Yep, Danzo did hide during the Pain Invasion but I never said
he was good. There's a difference between being good and
being competent. Tsunade is more or less good.
Danzo is not. Tsunade is incompetent. Danzo is competent.
Tsunade wanted to recall Naruto. Seemed like a good idea
because Naruto came anyways and beat Pain.
However nobody knew how strong Naruto had become
and BEFORE he trained in Sage Mode he was clearly
no match for Pain. Danzo made the smart move
by killing the messenger frog and not leading Naruto
to the guy trying to capture him. Tsunade took a
gamble and she got lucky as she often seems to do.

Tsunade is an goody two shoe incompetent who gets lucky.

Danzo is cruel and competent who falls victim to plot device
(Sasuke had to get a power up in battle to beat him)
dude how do you that Pain wasnt planning to blow up the village from the beginning.. from what i saw the only thing that was stopping Pain from destroying the village was Naruto. When he found out naruto wasnt on the village, he decided to manually make everyone in the village feel "pain" or whatever. and what your forgetting is that if danzo didnt kill the messeging frog, the village wouldnt have been destroyed, because if naruto was in the villaghe, Pain wouldnt have destroyed the village because doing so risk killing Naruto. it really depends what you mean by competent.. what you see competent might be incompetent for other ppl.. like saying Danzo made a smart move by killing the messeging frog? how is that competent.. he did that to become hokage and KILLED hundreds in the process.. did Tsunade gamble on naruto? yes she did but what she wrong by doing so?

and no matter what anyone says, if it wasnt for tsunade, everyone would have died in the attack unless you think hinata and everyone would have survived Pain's massive attack.. my point is tsunade belongs with the kages.. dont compare their abilities and their accomplishment to the village because the same thing can be said to some of the kages..
for example 1st and 2nd for monopilizing the village 3rd for not protecting sasuke

Bulldog
07-31-2010, 03:41 AM
dude how do you that Pain wasnt planning to blow up the village from the beginning.. from what i saw the only thing that was stopping Pain from destroying the village was Naruto. When he found out naruto wasnt on the village, he decided to manually make everyone in the village feel "pain" or whatever. and what your forgetting is that if danzo didnt kill the messeging frog, the village wouldnt have been destroyed, because if naruto was in the villaghe, Pain wouldnt have destroyed the village because doing so risk killing Naruto. it really depends what you mean by competent.. what you see competent might be incompetent for other ppl.. like saying Danzo made a smart move by killing the messeging frog? how is that competent.. he did that to become hokage and KILLED hundreds in the process.. did Tsunade gamble on naruto? yes she did but what she wrong by doing so?

and no matter what anyone says, if it wasnt for tsunade, everyone would have died in the attack unless you think hinata and everyone would have survived Pain's massive attack.. my point is tsunade belongs with the kages.. dont compare their abilities and their accomplishment to the village because the same thing can be said to some of the kages..
for example 1st and 2nd for monopilizing the village 3rd for not protecting sasuke


This is a great post your right but I still agree with danzos methods.

you get a rep from me.

SimpleGenin
07-31-2010, 03:50 AM
This is a great post your right but I still agree with danzos methods.

you get a rep from me.

which method? you agree that sending Naruto back was a bad idea?

Bulldog
07-31-2010, 03:59 AM
which method? you agree that sending Naruto back was a bad idea?

No just danzos was willing to fight with violence, he went about things wrong way Its hard for me to explain.

SimpleGenin
07-31-2010, 04:16 AM
No just danzos was willing to fight with violence, he went about things wrong way Its hard for me to explain.
uumm i kinda get what your getting at.. danzo was kinda all about whats "ashure thing" versus gambling.. his assertive on his decision and uses logic above all else.. kinda like our example with killiing the messenger frog.. Danzo thought that by having naruto in the village, the village would be basically handing over the kyuubi to the akatsuki.
however their is no way i could ever see Danzo as a good guy mis- understood.. what he did was sneaky.. he was a cause of alot of problem in the naruto world.. as i recall danzo was a major role to Nagato's pain.. when Jiraiya left konan, yahiko, nagato, those three tried to make the world a better place, but since danzo feared yahiko's group and their growing power, he worked with the enemy, Hanzo, to eliminate Yahiko's existance.. don you understand that with yahiko alive working with Nagato, the whole naruto world would have been a better place.. and with the attack on the village, he basically hid waiting to be hokage while Tsunade was left protecting the village.. and in the kage meeting, Danzo controlled the mind of the samurai to gain control of the 4 kages.. is that the kind of person you want hokage to be..?

Bulldog
07-31-2010, 04:19 AM
uumm i kinda get what your getting at.. danzo was kinda all about whats "ashure thing" versus gambling.. his assertive on his decision and uses logic above all else.. kinda like our example with killiing the messenger frog.. Danzo thought that by having naruto in the village, the village would be basically handing over the kyuubi to the akatsuki.
however their is no way i could ever see Danzo as a good guy mis- understood.. what he did was sneaky.. he was a cause of alot of problem in the naruto world.. as i recall danzo was a major role to Nagato's pain.. when Jiraiya left konan, yahiko, nagato, those three tried to make the world a better place, but since danzo feared yahiko's group and their growing power, he worked with the enemy, Hanzo, to eliminate Yahiko's existance.. don you understand that with yahiko alive working with Nagato, the whole naruto world would have been a better place.. and with the attack on the village, he basically hid waiting to be hokage while Tsunade was left protecting the village.. and in the kage meeting, Danzo controlled the mind of the samurai to gain control of the 4 kages.. is that the kind of person you want hokage to be..?


Its like the CIA man its hard for me to comment on this he does things I like and things I dont like. but as far as him or tsunade I pick danzo.

SimpleGenin
07-31-2010, 04:23 AM
Its like the CIA man its hard for me to comment on this he does things I like and things I dont like. but as far as him or tsunade I pick danzo.

Slay evil immediately.

Respect and Honor those who earned it.

Fight with Honor.


i really don think danzo is a type of person to believe these sayings.

Bulldog
07-31-2010, 04:25 AM
Slay evil immediately.

Respect and Honor those who earned it.

Fight with Honor.


i really don think danzo is a type of person to believe these sayings.

Dont take my philosophy and bring it into is!

mrsticky005
07-31-2010, 06:06 AM
dude how do you that Pain wasnt planning to blow up the village from the beginning..

Because Pain would have just destroyed the village first thing.
Pain was after the Nine Tails host (Naruto). That was his mission.
Once completed he would go back to Akatsuki and then as he
would think destroy the Land of Fire (which would include Konoha).



from what i saw the only thing that was stopping Pain from destroying the village was Naruto.

Actually nothing stopped Pain from destroying the village as he did.

When he found out naruto wasnt on the village, he decided to manually make everyone in the village feel "pain" or whatever.

It was a lesson to Tsunade to her "We great nations suffered too".
Pain was showing her what suffering is really about. But yes
it was to the villagers as well. In any case Tsunade did very
little to stop Pain. Instead of wasting time talking she should have
just fought. Naruto wasted no time talking and just fought.

and what your forgetting is that if danzo didnt kill the messeging frog, the village wouldnt have been destroyed, because if naruto was in the villaghe, Pain wouldnt have destroyed the village because doing so risk killing Naruto.

What your forgetting is that nobody knew how strong Naruto became.
If Naruto returned and was too weak he would have then been taken
by Pain and then Akatsuki might use the tailed beasts to wipe out
the entire Land of Fire as Pain was saying they would. Also Pain
may have destroyed the village even if he did get Naruto.




it really depends what you mean by competent.. what you see competent might be incompetent for other ppl.. like saying Danzo made a smart move by killing the messeging frog? how is that competent.. he did that to become hokage and KILLED hundreds in the process..

It would seem as if Tsunade was the smarter one here because Naruto
defeated Pain. But Tsunade was lucky not smart. Danzo was smart.
Like I said NOBODY knew how strong Naruto became with Sage Mode.
Danzo isn't the type to just "believe it". As far as Danzo was concerned
Naruto wasn't strong enough to fight Pain. This is smart because
last time Naruto was in Konoha he wasn't strong enough. That's
all Danzo has to work with. Tsunade wanted to recall Naruto
because she had "faith and trust" in Naruto. That's gambling.
Danzo didn't kill anyone. Pain did.


did Tsunade gamble on naruto? yes she did but what she wrong by doing so?

It's not a matter of right or wrong. It's a matter of risks.
Tsunade took a huge risk relying on the guy who Pain
was trying to capture to defeat Pain. If she was wrong
and Naruto wasn't strong enough then Pain would have
captured Naruto and destroy The Land of Fire.

and no matter what anyone says, if it wasnt for tsunade, everyone would have died in the attack unless you think hinata and everyone would have survived Pain's massive attack..

Hinata was healed by Sakura mostly. Nagato is the one who revived
everyone. Naruto is the one who defeated Pain. Yes, Tsunade
did her Katsuyu healing to the village but it doesn't make a difference
unless Pain is defeated. Tsunade put all her eggs in one basket
(Naruto) and that one basket just happened to be Pain's target.


my point is tsunade belongs with the kages..
dont compare their abilities and their accomplishment to the village because the same thing can be said to some of the kages..
for example 1st and 2nd for monopilizing the village 3rd for not protecting sasuke

Tsunade is still pathetic regardless of how other Kages are.



in black

SimpleGenin
07-31-2010, 06:39 AM
It was a lesson to Tsunade to her "We great nations suffered too".
Pain was showing her what suffering is really about. But yes
it was to the villagers as well. In any case Tsunade did very
little to stop Pain. Instead of wasting time talking she should have
just fought. Naruto wasted no time talking and just fought.
Tsunade did the right thing and her statements was true. Nagato thought he had the right to judge those weaker than he is. Are you saying she should have just kept her mouth shut? than whats stopping a person like nagato from thinking they could do whatever they want.? She stood up to what she believe and that was the right thing to do. If she would have fought Pain at that moment she would have most likely been killed and when that happens, who's gonna protect the village from a Massive almighty push from pain. The only reason why most the villeger survived was because of tsunade and katsuyu.


What your forgetting is that nobody knew how strong Naruto became.
If Naruto returned and was too weak he would have then been taken
by Pain and then Akatsuki might use the tailed beasts to wipe out
the entire Land of Fire as Pain was saying they would. Also Pain
may have destroyed the village even if he did get Naruto.

Fact is Naruto was strong enough.

It would seem as if Tsunade was the smarter one here because Naruto
defeated Pain. But Tsunade was lucky not smart. Danzo was smart.
Like I said NOBODY knew how strong Naruto became with Sage Mode.
Danzo isn't the type to just "believe it". As far as Danzo was concerned
Naruto wasn't strong enough to fight Pain. This is smart because
last time Naruto was in Konoha he wasn't strong enough. That's
all Danzo has to work with. Tsunade wanted to recall Naruto
because she had "faith and trust" in Naruto. That's gambling.
Danzo didn't kill anyone. Pain did.
If it wasnt for Danzo working with Hanzo, Yahiko wouldnt have died and Nagato wouldnt have turned in to a bad character.Its because of danzo's action that Pain was made.. I don see Danzo as a character with positive attributes let alone a good guy.

It's not a matter of right or wrong. It's a matter of risks.
Tsunade took a huge risk relying on the guy who Pain
was trying to capture to defeat Pain. If she was wrong
and Naruto wasn't strong enough then Pain would have
captured Naruto and destroy The Land of Fire.

If naruto didnt come at all, no one would be left in the village except Danzo's followers. Tsunade believed in Naruto and Naruto came through. Arguing this is like arguing weither god exist.


Hinata was healed by Sakura mostly. Nagato is the one who revived
everyone. Naruto is the one who defeated Pain. Yes, Tsunade
did her Katsuyu healing to the village but it doesn't make a difference
unless Pain is defeated. Tsunade put all her eggs in one basket
(Naruto) and that one basket just happened to be Pain's target.

and sakura was saved by katsuyu. with the large scale Almighty Push, NO ONE would have survived, so dont tell me who healed who.


Tsunade is still pathetic regardless of how other Kages are.

thats an opinion

mrsticky005
07-31-2010, 06:54 AM
It was a lesson to Tsunade to her "We great nations suffered too".
Pain was showing her what suffering is really about. But yes
it was to the villagers as well. In any case Tsunade did very
little to stop Pain. Instead of wasting time talking she should have
just fought. Naruto wasted no time talking and just fought.
Tsunade did the right thing and her statements was true. Nagato thought he had the right to judge those weaker than he is. Are you saying she should have just kept her mouth shut? than whats stopping a person like nagato from thinking they could do whatever they want.? She stood up to what she believe and that was the right thing to do. If she would have fought Pain at that moment she would have most likely been killed and when that happens, who's gonna protect the village from a Massive almighty push from pain. The only reason why most the villeger survived was because of tsunade and katsuyu.

She have said nothing and just fought Pain.


What your forgetting is that nobody knew how strong Naruto became.
If Naruto returned and was too weak he would have then been taken
by Pain and then Akatsuki might use the tailed beasts to wipe out
the entire Land of Fire as Pain was saying they would. Also Pain
may have destroyed the village even if he did get Naruto.

Fact is Naruto was strong enough.

But what if he wasn't?

It would seem as if Tsunade was the smarter one here because Naruto
defeated Pain. But Tsunade was lucky not smart. Danzo was smart.
Like I said NOBODY knew how strong Naruto became with Sage Mode.
Danzo isn't the type to just "believe it". As far as Danzo was concerned
Naruto wasn't strong enough to fight Pain. This is smart because
last time Naruto was in Konoha he wasn't strong enough. That's
all Danzo has to work with. Tsunade wanted to recall Naruto
because she had "faith and trust" in Naruto. That's gambling.
Danzo didn't kill anyone. Pain did.
If it wasnt for Danzo working with Hanzo, Yahiko wouldnt have died and Nagato wouldnt have turned in to a bad character.Its because of danzo's action that Pain was made.. I don see Danzo as a character with positive attributes let alone a good guy.

Nagato already resented Konoha before this when his parents died.
Had Danzo been succesful then there would be no Pain. But plot
works against Danzo. Nagato had to survive to teach Naruto pain.

It's not a matter of right or wrong. It's a matter of risks.
Tsunade took a huge risk relying on the guy who Pain
was trying to capture to defeat Pain. If she was wrong
and Naruto wasn't strong enough then Pain would have
captured Naruto and destroy The Land of Fire.

If naruto didnt come at all, no one would be left in the village except Danzo's followers. Tsunade believed in Naruto and Naruto came through. Arguing this is like arguing weither god exist.

Only because of Tsunade's incompetence. She wasted too much
time trying to heal everyone than fight Pain. Her healing doesn't
make a difference as Pain would have just obliterated everyone again.
Naruto coming through was luck. This has nothing to do with such a topic.



Hinata was healed by Sakura mostly. Nagato is the one who revived
everyone. Naruto is the one who defeated Pain. Yes, Tsunade
did her Katsuyu healing to the village but it doesn't make a difference
unless Pain is defeated. Tsunade put all her eggs in one basket
(Naruto) and that one basket just happened to be Pain's target.

and sakura was saved by katsuyu. with the large scale Almighty Push, NO ONE would have survived, so dont tell me who healed who.

Whether Tsunade saved Sakura or not doesn't make a difference.
If Naruto didn't come back then Pain would do another Almighty Push
and obliterate everyone for good. Tsunade is the Hokage and
should fight. Healing is the medic-nin's job. Tsunade is a good medic-nin
as she has a ton of raw healing power but she's not a fighter.
Naruto did not waste time, he fought Pain as soon as he returned
to the village. Naruto defeated Pain and Nagato made the choice
to redeem himself by healing and reviving everyone.


Tsunade is still pathetic regardless of how other Kages are.

thats an opinion

True it is.




In orange.

PlatonicZombie
07-31-2010, 08:24 AM
She has faith in Naruto. Big whoop. So does everyone else and they are the sheer level of incompetence that she is. The difference is that
with the 3rd he was more between a rock and a hard place than
being incompetent. The Uchiha massacre happened because
otherwise there would be a coup d'etat and he tried to stop it.
The third did fail to kill Orochimaru but at least he try to right his wrong.
Tsunade could have stopped Sasuke but didn't think it was important enough of an issue which she was clearly wrong about.


Eh... I'm still not convinced. Tsunade was still concerned with making sure the Leaf Village was still in order. I just see Sasuke as the current Orochimaru. Sure you can try to claim that the Third at least tried to right his wrong, after Orochimaru infilitrated the village and destroyed it. If anything, Tsunade has just as much to worry about (The Akatsuki) as teh The Third did with the coup. I dunno, I just don't see her mistakes being worse than the Third's, just the same.

Wooster
07-31-2010, 09:15 AM
The sadist part of all, it was there even before Tsuande :lol:It was never mentioned until long after.

How do you make it sound so easy Woo-man?
Because it is easy.
Ok then why is Tsunade any different? let's leave aside the fact that even if we don't like it it was all for the sake of the plot but since you seem to think Sarutobi couldn't have done much more (even with him having ages of experience as Hokage when compared to Tsunade and him knowing Oro just as well because of their relationship) Should she just have gone after Sasuke herself? She sent who she thought was right for the job and who she had available and that was it.

No, the barrier existed because Itachi and Kisame both went in when the barrier was put only because of Itachi having been an ANBU and all they could get in easily. If the barrier existed at that time we can assume it still existed a while later when the Sound 4 came to Konoha. By the way all this was explained by Pain just before he attacked Konoha...No actually it never exist. It's all retcon.

Think of Crush the Leaf. The enemy ninja were right at the gates, but they weren't detected at all. Sure Orochimaru may have had the key, but the rest of them shouldn't. Even if they did, shouldn't the key have been changed before Itachi arrived? What a worthless barrier, it can't even detect an entire freaking army!!`:shock:

She has faith in Naruto. Big whoop. So does everyone else and they are the sheer level of incompetence that she is. The difference is that
with the 3rd he was more between a rock and a hard place than
being incompetent. The Uchiha massacre happened because
otherwise there would be a coup d'etat and he tried to stop it.
The third did fail to kill Orochimaru but at least he try to right his wrong.
Tsunade could have stopped Sasuke but didn't think it was important enough of an issue which she was clearly wrong about.Yes, that's the biggest problem with Tsunade, her blind faith in him. The Third Hokage had faith in Naruto, but kept him on a short leash. The Third was actually quite the hard ass as well. See his explanation of friendship during the chunin exams.

The Third's failure during Orochimaru raid makes more sense. It was a split-second heat-of-the-moment decision. I think we all could believe most people would hesitate for a moment before killing their own student. Besides the Third tried to fix his mistake the second time. Tsunade keeps making the same mistakes over and over again.

Uchiha_Itachi
07-31-2010, 11:40 AM
It was never mentioned until long after.


Because it is easy.
No actually it never exist. It's all retcon.

Think of Crush the Leaf. The enemy ninja were right at the gates, but they weren't detected at all. Sure Orochimaru may have had the key, but the rest of them shouldn't. Even if they did, shouldn't the key have been changed before Itachi arrived? What a worthless barrier, it can't even detect an entire freaking army!!`:shock:

Yes, that's the biggest problem with Tsunade, her blind faith in him. The Third Hokage had faith in Naruto, but kept him on a short leash. The Third was actually quite the hard ass as well. See his explanation of friendship during the chunin exams.

The Third's failure during Orochimaru raid makes more sense. It was a split-second heat-of-the-moment decision. I think we all could believe most people would hesitate for a moment before killing their own student. Besides the Third tried to fix his mistake the second time. Tsunade keeps making the same mistakes over and over again.

Yeah, thats true. Tsuande does make a lot of mistakes, and the third was a very good hokage. Shes puts too much faith into naruto, who is very reliable, but can't always get the job done. Orochimaru is just an insane person who is hard to decipt; which makes it obvious that the third failed to 100% stop him.

mrsticky005
07-31-2010, 11:50 AM
It was never mentioned until long after.


Because it is easy.
No actually it never exist. It's all retcon.

Think of Crush the Leaf. The enemy ninja were right at the gates, but they weren't detected at all. Sure Orochimaru may have had the key, but the rest of them shouldn't. Even if they did, shouldn't the key have been changed before Itachi arrived? What a worthless barrier, it can't even detect an entire freaking army!!`:shock:

Yes, that's the biggest problem with Tsunade, her blind faith in him. The Third Hokage had faith in Naruto, but kept him on a short leash. The Third was actually quite the hard ass as well. See his explanation of friendship during the chunin exams.

The Third's failure during Orochimaru raid makes more sense. It was a split-second heat-of-the-moment decision. I think we all could believe most people would hesitate for a moment before killing their own student. Besides the Third tried to fix his mistake the second time. Tsunade keeps making the same mistakes over and over again.


Hmm that IS a worthless barrier and why didn't they change the code?

It's kinda a shame we didn't see much of Danzo vs Hiruzen.
It would be fun to see how their personalities collide.

Bulldog
07-31-2010, 11:54 AM
Hmm that IS a worthless barrier and why didn't they change the code?

It's kinda a shame we didn't see much of Danzo vs Hiruzen.
It would be fun to see how their personalities collide.


Yea if someone knew the codes why didint they change them?

mrsticky005
07-31-2010, 12:03 PM
Yea if someone knew the codes why didint they change them?


I think Wooster might be right in that the barrier just didn't exist before
and were then retconned into the story to make Pain's invasion cooler.


Either that or it's the worst barrier ever and
just about everybody knows the code. `:|

Bulldog
07-31-2010, 12:06 PM
I think Wooster might be right in that the barrier just didn't exist before
and were then retconned into the story to make Pain's invasion cooler.


Either that or it's the worst barrier ever and
just about everybody knows the code. `:|

even that sora filler they got through.

mrsticky005
07-31-2010, 12:09 PM
even that sora filler they got through.


Heh. The barrier doesn't detect filler characters. :lol:

Bulldog
07-31-2010, 12:12 PM
Heh. The barrier doesn't detect filler characters. :lol:

lol I was thinking about yesterday everyone whos went through the barrier.

puppetmaster zack
07-31-2010, 05:40 PM
....good thoughts and yall are saying orochiamru knowed it no cuz only the black-ops know it

mrsticky005
07-31-2010, 05:52 PM
....good thoughts and yall are saying orochiamru knowed it no cuz only the black-ops know it

It's hard to say. Wooster's explanation that there originally was no barrier and it was retconned into the story makes the most sense.

puppetmaster zack
07-31-2010, 05:52 PM
yes true .............to mamashi kishimote and his assistance e-mails

3littlepigs
07-31-2010, 06:22 PM
It was never mentioned until long after.


Because it is easy.
No actually it never exist. It's all retcon.

Think of Crush the Leaf. The enemy ninja were right at the gates, but they weren't detected at all. Sure Orochimaru may have had the key, but the rest of them shouldn't. Even if they did, shouldn't the key have been changed before Itachi arrived? What a worthless barrier, it can't even detect an entire freaking army!!`:shock:

Yes, that's the biggest problem with Tsunade, her blind faith in him. The Third Hokage had faith in Naruto, but kept him on a short leash. The Third was actually quite the hard ass as well. See his explanation of friendship during the chunin exams.

The Third's failure during Orochimaru raid makes more sense. It was a split-second heat-of-the-moment decision. I think we all could believe most people would hesitate for a moment before killing their own student. Besides the Third tried to fix his mistake the second time. Tsunade keeps making the same mistakes over and over again.
Sorry I'm trying but right now as tired as I am I can't recollect anything by the name of Crush the Leaf....and it's not literally a key. Itachi knew the way arund it and that's why he got in easily...maybe the barrier was off when they came in because it was after Oro's attack...I don't know anymore. However I fail to see how that's Tsunade's fault too....

The kind of faith they had in Naruto is also different. Sarutobi mainly had faith in Naruto because of where he came from but Naruto did help Tsunade get back in track so to me there is a big difference. Not to mention Sarutobi never had to deal with Naruto fueled by his "bond" with Sasuke or whatever or Naruto at the Kage level.

Nah you're Hokage (and if we follow most of the reasoning here) you should be able to make those decisions in that split second. I mean even Jiraya tried his best to get rid of Nagato once he knew who he was and it's not like he had days to prepare mentally for that.
She makes it a joke because it's obvious she's only Hokage
so Kishimoto can have an excuse for his plot---her incompetence.

Everything that happens is pretty much an excuse for the plot even Sasuke.

Shikamaru is brilliant. Tsunade gave him nothing to work with
and he did a pretty darn good job even if he did fail.

Glad we agree on that.

No it was mercy. He couldn't bring himself to kill his student.
Also there's no real indication that Itachi killed his clan.
It could have very easily been all Madara's doing.
Tsunade is incompetent.

Yep she can't do anything else because she's a terrible Hokage.
She should step down and give a better ninja the job.
If you remember Kakashi went out on his own and Tsunade
tried to stop him.

It was both at the same time....yes it was his dear student but he was also a danger to the village and he failed. There is no one better for the job at the moment except Kakashi and like we've seen he doesn't want the job. He would have Tsunade's lazy attitude as well....

Yes the Hokage should do that when it's only Uchiha has
gone missing and likely with the Sound Ninja. However
since you don't care for Sasuke (which is fair. He is a jerk.)
Imagine it as if Naruto was the one who left the village.
Don't you think it would be bad news if Naruto the host
of the Nine Tails fell into enemy hands? Shouldn't
the Hokage do everything in his/her power to prevent that?
Tsunade would have let Naruto waltz right out of the village.

Likely with the Sound Ninja? were they like celebrities or something that Tsunade should have known them? Did Sakura say anything about Sasuke leaving with company? no she didn't. Tsunade only found out after Shizune's team came back. She was busy with other things it's not like she was at a casino or anything like that. Sasuke shouldn't have been THAT powerful to begin with since he was supposed to be a genin, an Uchiha yes but still a genin. The curse power didn't actually take effect until he fought Naruto.

An Uchiha with no Mangekyo Sharingan cannot even be compared to a Jinchuriki's value. Even if someone stole the sharingan that person would still be human so not immortal unlike a loose bijuu which could destroy an entire village just like that.

Yeah she's weak minded when it comes to Naruto but he's not a kid anymore and because she has too much faith in him is the reason why Naruto fought Pain in the first place. Danzou would have just not trusted Naruto, let the whole village burn down, wait until Pain was gone to come out of his hiding place.

And you're right I don't care for Sasuke...I'm actually VERY happy we haven't seen him in a while.

Basically I'm with the Raikage when he talked about how
letting Sasuke roam around free was just a bunch of fail.

Yeah yeah he only complained because Sasuke was able to just walk in and kidnap the Raikage's brother. Raikage is not that much better either if you ask me....yeah he overpowers Tsunade but has the same temper. He only came back to his senses after he found out Madara didn't get Bee. Not to mention the fact that he can't control his brother either.....:roll:

Oh and for the excuse of Tsunade not having enough man
power because the village needed to be repaired...

When Danzo was Candidate Hokage the village was in a WORSE
situation yet when he got the letter from Raikage requesting
Sasuke's disposal it didn't take Danzo very long to know that
Sasuke needed to be eliminated and taken care of. Heck Danzo
knew Sasuke was a problem and tried to kill him long before.
Danzo even fought Sasuke himself and tried to stop him.
While Danzo did fail, he at least put forth the effort and
also he had the disadvantage of having to keep a low profile.

We don't know for sure that Tsunade wouldn't have agreed to kill Sasuke just like Danzou did. The letter was meant for her...before that Sasuke was still just Konoha's problem so yeah she went along with Sakura and Naruto and tried to spare him but she's not stupid to start a war with another village just because of Sasuke.

Danzou didn't think long because he was after Sasuke from way back....which is why Itachi threatened him before leaving because he knew what Danzou was thinking. Yeah, at some point it made sense to get rid of Sasuke for the village's sake but it was also very convenient for him wasn't it?

Saying the village was in much better shape when Tsunade took over isn't really an excuse since Danzou never left the village to begin with and Tsunade hadn't been in there for I don't know how long.

Are you really telling me at that point when Danzou fought Sasuke he was really just doing it for Konoha's sake? You actually think that? He run away like the coward he was and it wasn't until he was trapped that he faced Sasuke. Let's also not forget that Sasuke already had too much information concerning Danzou, which if Danzou had survived it wouldn't have been convenient at all....He just wanted all the Uchihas to disappear but he wanted their powers so I don't think we should be comparing righteous Danzou with Tsunade.

Also Danzo suffers terribly from plot.
Doesn't that excuse apply to Tsunade as well?

Bulldog
07-31-2010, 07:28 PM
It's hard to say. Wooster's explanation that there originally was no barrier and it was retconned into the story makes the most sense.

I never heard of a barrier since then also.

Wooster
07-31-2010, 08:24 PM
Yeah, thats true. Tsuande does make a lot of mistakes, and the third was a very good hokage. Shes puts too much faith into naruto, who is very reliable, but can't always get the job done. Orochimaru is just an insane person who is hard to decipt; which makes it obvious that the third failed to 100% stop him.
She does. He was. Well faith is fine, but Naruto needs to be tempered.
Hmm that IS a worthless barrier and why didn't they change the code?

It's kinda a shame we didn't see much of Danzo vs Hiruzen.
It would be fun to see how their personalities collide.
It IS worthless. Either the barrier is crap or Orochimaru gave the key to the entire SOund and Sand village.

After the attack, Konoha might have wanted to change the key, wouldn't you if 1000 people have the key to your house?
There was no barrier; there couldn't have been. Kisihimoto just want Pain to throw itself into the village.

I don't know. Only if was the true rivalry, not the what do you think of me crap in the flashback.
I think Wooster might be right in that the barrier just didn't exist before
and were then retconned into the story to make Pain's invasion cooler.


Either that or it's the worst barrier ever and
just about everybody knows the code. `:|
Damn straight.
Barrier: Sai Shaft disapproved.

Blasted military cut backs!
Sorry I'm trying but right now as tired as I am I can't recollect anything by the name of Crush the Leaf....and it's not literally a key. Itachi knew the way arund it and that's why he got in easily...maybe the barrier was off when they came in because it was after Oro's attack...I don't know anymore. However I fail to see how that's Tsunade's fault too....

The kind of faith they had in Naruto is also different. Sarutobi mainly had faith in Naruto because of where he came from but Naruto did help Tsunade get back in track so to me there is a big difference. Not to mention Sarutobi never had to deal with Naruto fueled by his "bond" with Sasuke or whatever or Naruto at the Kage level.

Nah you're Hokage (and if we follow most of the reasoning here) you should be able to make those decisions in that split second. I mean even Jiraya tried his best to get rid of Nagato once he knew who he was and it's not like he had days to prepare mentally for that.

Doesn't that excuse apply to Tsunade as well?
It explained Itachi in a stupid way. We all now the only real guard was Mr. Sleepy. Tsunade's fault? I don't think I said that.

Tsunade is reckless whatever she believes in. Naruto needs a controlling influence whether it is Kakashi, The Third or Jiraiya. Tsunade is bad for him and Konoha.

Yes, but the Third hesitated for a split second, so we can say he screwed up if you want to. Tsunade on the other hand had hours, days, years to make the right decisions. She continually screwed up.

mrsticky005
07-31-2010, 08:48 PM
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 http://www.naruto.viz.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3700054#post3700054)
She makes it a joke because it's obvious she's only Hokage
so Kishimoto can have an excuse for his plot---her incompetence.

Everything that happens is pretty much an excuse for the plot even Sasuke.

True, but Tsunade still makes the Hokage's look like a joke.



Shikamaru is brilliant. Tsunade gave him nothing to work with
and he did a pretty darn good job even if he did fail.

Glad we agree on that.

Same

No it was mercy. He couldn't bring himself to kill his student.
Also there's no real indication that Itachi killed his clan.
It could have very easily been all Madara's doing.
Tsunade is incompetent.

Yep she can't do anything else because she's a terrible Hokage.
She should step down and give a better ninja the job.
If you remember Kakashi went out on his own and Tsunade
tried to stop him.

It was both at the same time....yes it was his dear student but he was also a danger to the village and he failed. There is no one better for the job at the moment except Kakashi and like we've seen he doesn't want the job. He would have Tsunade's lazy attitude as well....

True the 3rd did fail to kill Orochimaru.

Kakashi may not want the job but if he was Hokage he would act responsible. Kakashi would do his best which I can't say
Tsunade seems to do or she's just that pathetic.


Yes the Hokage should do that when it's only Uchiha has
gone missing and likely with the Sound Ninja. However
since you don't care for Sasuke (which is fair. He is a jerk.)
Imagine it as if Naruto was the one who left the village.
Don't you think it would be bad news if Naruto the host
of the Nine Tails fell into enemy hands? Shouldn't
the Hokage do everything in his/her power to prevent that?
Tsunade would have let Naruto waltz right out of the village.

Likely with the Sound Ninja? were they like celebrities or something that Tsunade should have known them? Did Sakura say anything about Sasuke leaving with company? no she didn't. Tsunade only found out after Shizune's team came back. She was busy with other things it's not like she was at a casino or anything like that. Sasuke shouldn't have been THAT powerful to begin with since he was supposed to be a genin, an Uchiha yes but still a genin. The curse power didn't actually take effect until he fought Naruto.

When the Third fought Orochimaru they were using the barrier to
keep others from the fight. So they should have been on a watch-list.
It was pretty obvious what Sasuke was going to do. He was headed
to go to Orochimaru. Right, busy with other things. I would accept
such an excuse more if we actually saw Tsunade doing these other
things rather than gambling and drinking and sleeping on the job.


An Uchiha with no Mangekyo Sharingan cannot even be compared to a Jinchuriki's value. Even if someone stole the sharingan that person would still be human so not immortal unlike a loose bijuu which could destroy an entire village just like that.

It doesn't matter. A sharingan is a sharingan.
The mere fact it can copy jutsu is dangerous enough.



Yeah she's weak minded when it comes to Naruto but he's not a kid anymore and because she has too much faith in him is the reason why Naruto fought Pain in the first place. Danzou would have just not trusted Naruto, let the whole village burn down, wait until Pain was gone to come out of his hiding place.

If Danzo was Hokage he would have had fought Pain with no questions
asked. He would not waste time trying to heal everyone before the
battle is over. Tsunade can't stand to sacrifice anyone whereas
Danzo knows it is a necessity.

And you're right I don't care for Sasuke...I'm actually VERY happy we haven't seen him in a while.

Heh. `:)

Basically I'm with the Raikage when he talked about how
letting Sasuke roam around free was just a bunch of fail.

Yeah yeah he only complained because Sasuke was able to just walk in and kidnap the Raikage's brother. Raikage is not that much better either if you ask me....yeah he overpowers Tsunade but has the same temper. He only came back to his senses after he found out Madara didn't get Bee. Not to mention the fact that he can't control his brother either.....:roll:

Raikage has his problems but considering the Cloud Village is the strongest he's obviously doing something right.

Oh and for the excuse of Tsunade not having enough man
power because the village needed to be repaired...

When Danzo was Candidate Hokage the village was in a WORSE
situation yet when he got the letter from Raikage requesting
Sasuke's disposal it didn't take Danzo very long to know that
Sasuke needed to be eliminated and taken care of. Heck Danzo
knew Sasuke was a problem and tried to kill him long before.
Danzo even fought Sasuke himself and tried to stop him.
While Danzo did fail, he at least put forth the effort and
also he had the disadvantage of having to keep a low profile.

We don't know for sure that Tsunade wouldn't have agreed to kill Sasuke just like Danzou did. The letter was meant for her...before that Sasuke was still just Konoha's problem so yeah she went along with Sakura and Naruto and tried to spare him but she's not stupid to start a war with another village just because of Sasuke.

Tsunade probably would be forced to accept Sasuke's death warrant.
The problem is that she let it get this far. She treated dealing with
Sasuke as a "better luck next time" ordeal rather than an emergency.


Danzou didn't think long because he was after Sasuke from way back....which is why Itachi threatened him before leaving because he knew what Danzou was thinking. Yeah, at some point it made sense to get rid of Sasuke for the village's sake but it was also very convenient for him wasn't it?

Yep it was convenient for Danzo. But his convenience is often
for the good of the village. What's bad for Danzo is bad for the village.



Saying the village was in much better shape when Tsunade took over isn't really an excuse since Danzou never left the village to begin with and Tsunade hadn't been in there for I don't know how long.

Tsunade's running off isn't much of an excuse either. She's a kunoichi
who has responsibilities to the village but she ignored them. She's
almost as bad as Sasuke is.

Are you really telling me at that point when Danzou fought Sasuke he was really just doing it for Konoha's sake? You actually think that? He run away like the coward he was and it wasn't until he was trapped that he faced Sasuke. Let's also not forget that Sasuke already had too much information concerning Danzou, which if Danzou had survived it wouldn't have been convenient at all....He just wanted all the Uchihas to disappear but he wanted their powers so I don't think we should be comparing righteous Danzou with Tsunade.

Danzo is not righteous. Danzo is not good. Danzo is competent.
Konoha under Danzo would be a cruel place to live but it would be strong.
It doesn't really matter what Danzo's intentions were as what needed
to be done was to get rid of Sasuke and Madara. He failed but he took
the initiative.

Also Danzo suffers terribly from plot.
Doesn't that excuse apply to Tsunade as well?

Yes but not nearly as much as it does for Danzo.
Since Danzo is portrayed as a bad guy he can't really win.

3littlepigs
07-31-2010, 10:33 PM
Tsunade is reckless whatever she believes in. Naruto needs a controlling influence whether it is Kakashi, The Third or Jiraiya. Tsunade is bad for him and Konoha.

While I agree he needs some controlling he wouldn't really be the Naruto I like if he was under control all the time. Besides it's not like they're on the same team or anything...he gets a little bit of control from Kakashi or Yamato and then Sakura's punches.

Yes, but the Third hesitated for a split second, so we can say he screwed up if you want to. Tsunade on the other hand had hours, days, years to make the right decisions. She continually screwed up.

Yes, because he was human he made a mistake. Same as Tsunade.
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 http://www.naruto.viz.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3700054#post3700054)
True, but Tsunade still makes the Hokage's look like a joke.

If it makes you feel better to think of it that way that's ok I do the same with Sasuke and I just think how pathetic he is. ;)

True the 3rd did fail to kill Orochimaru.

Kakashi may not want the job but if he was Hokage he would act responsible. Kakashi would do his best which I can't say
Tsunade seems to do or she's just that pathetic.

Kakashi would be a good Hokage I'm not saying he wouldn't. I was extremely disappointed that he didn't become Hokage but just like Tsunade it's not his goal to become one.

When the Third fought Orochimaru they were using the barrier to
keep others from the fight. So they should have been on a watch-list.
It was pretty obvious what Sasuke was going to do. He was headed
to go to Orochimaru. Right, busy with other things. I would accept
such an excuse more if we actually saw Tsunade doing these other
things rather than gambling and drinking and sleeping on the job.

Yeah they kept the ANBU from helping Sarutobi but it's not like they said "we're the Sound Ninja" or whatever or at least I don't remember...How was it obvious that he would go? I mean Kakashi didn't really think it was possible that it was actually going to happen and Sasuke was kind of giving up on it until the moment they started beating him up.

We have been able to see Tsunade as Hokage more so than other Hokage even Sarutobi so you can't say they were always serious about their job because you don't know. That time though she actually was busy with other things like using whatever ninjas were available to try and meet all the requests, getting used to her job as Hokage, getting used to all the shinobi she had under her command, then Lee's surgery and recovery etc...she wasn't drinking or gambling.

It doesn't matter. A sharingan is a sharingan.
The mere fact it can copy jutsu is dangerous enough.

Yeah but having it doesn't make you immortal (at least not with the regular sharingan that Sasuke had) so at the end you can't really compare it to a bijuu.

If Danzo was Hokage he would have had fought Pain with no questions
asked. He would not waste time trying to heal everyone before the
battle is over. Tsunade can't stand to sacrifice anyone whereas
Danzo knows it is a necessity.

Ah yeah...right. He would have gone out and bravely face Pain. Sure if you want to believe that then be my guest. No, he would have wasted time hiding and letting most people die just so he could save himself because of course the world couldn't survive without him. Tsunade has sacrificed others when it's necessary and most of the time she doesn't break down because of it. Pain killed Kakashi, he killed Shizune, he killed Jiraya too and she knew that and yet valued their sacrifices and knew they weren't wasted. I can't see how wanting to protect as many people as possible can be bad...I mean her strength is medical ninjutsu so what's wrong with using it? it's like asking Jiraya to fight without his toads, Oro with his snakes or Sasuke with his friggin overused, overpowered sharingan.

Raikage has his problems but considering the Cloud Village is the strongest he's obviously doing something right.

It's not that he's doing something right because so far he hasn't done anything at all. It's just that out of all the options he was the better choice as leader of the alliance. And maybe I missed that part because I didn't know they were the strongest....

Tsunade probably would be forced to accept Sasuke's death warrant.
The problem is that she let it get this far. She treated dealing with
Sasuke as a "better luck next time" ordeal rather than an emergency.

Yeah she made a mistake but so did Hashirama when he allowed Madara to just walk out of the village with so much hate, so did Sarutobi when he failed to kill Oro the first time.

Yep it was convenient for Danzo. But his convenience is often
for the good of the village. What's bad for Danzo is bad for the village.

I think it was just luck and definitely not. So getting all those sharingan and using them like that after the massacre was good for the village how? it's not like he even got rid of Sasuke or Madara.

Tsunade's running off isn't much of an excuse either. She's a kunoichi
who has responsibilities to the village but she ignored them. She's
almost as bad as Sasuke is.

When did it say she run off? Was she a fugitive at some point? She left the village but so did Jiraya and he was extremely loyal to Konoha. She didn't ignore her responsibilities but after serving Konoha as well as she did she had every right to leave IMO. She didn't escape from Konoha, she left and then came back. Lots of people do that and it doesn't mean they're traitors or irresponsible. There was no war going on...Sasuke's problem wasn't that he left the village but why he left.

Danzo is not righteous. Danzo is not good. Danzo is competent.
Konoha under Danzo would be a cruel place to live but it would be strong.
It doesn't really matter what Danzo's intentions were as what needed
to be done was to get rid of Sasuke and Madara. He failed but he took
the initiative.

Yeah so you rather everything Hashirama, Tobirama, Sarutobi and Minato worked for got thrown away like garbage as long there's strength? Danzou didn't take any initiative....he was forced to fight for his "so important" life.:roll:

mrsticky005
07-31-2010, 11:53 PM
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 http://www.naruto.viz.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3705284#post3705284)
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 http://www.naruto.viz.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3700054#post3700054)
True, but Tsunade still makes the Hokage's look like a joke.

If it makes you feel better to think of it that way that's ok I do the same with Sasuke and I just think how pathetic he is. ;)

It would help a lot more if Kishimoto just killed off her.

True the 3rd did fail to kill Orochimaru.

Kakashi may not want the job but if he was Hokage he would act responsible. Kakashi would do his best which I can't say
Tsunade seems to do or she's just that pathetic.

Kakashi would be a good Hokage I'm not saying he wouldn't. I was extremely disappointed that he didn't become Hokage but just like Tsunade it's not his goal to become one.

Kakashi didn't become Hokage not because he refused but
because Tsunade had to unfortunately wake up from her coma.


When the Third fought Orochimaru they were using the barrier to
keep others from the fight. So they should have been on a watch-list.
It was pretty obvious what Sasuke was going to do. He was headed
to go to Orochimaru. Right, busy with other things. I would accept
such an excuse more if we actually saw Tsunade doing these other
things rather than gambling and drinking and sleeping on the job.

Yeah they kept the ANBU from helping Sarutobi but it's not like they said "we're the Sound Ninja" or whatever or at least I don't remember...How was it obvious that he would go? I mean Kakashi didn't really think it was possible that it was actually going to happen and Sasuke was kind of giving up on it until the moment they started beating him up.

It's not like the Sound Four are generic looking ninja. They stand out.
You have to be blind to miss them. Also the Sound Ninja wear headbands
that say they are from the Sound Village.

It was obvious Sasuke wanted Itachi dead and was desperate.
Orochimaru didn't make his plans to bring Sasuke to himself
that much of a secret either. There were plenty of warning
signs but everyone just shrugged them off as nothing to worry about.


We have been able to see Tsunade as Hokage more so than other Hokage even Sarutobi so you can't say they were always serious about their job because you don't know. That time though she actually was busy with other things like using whatever ninjas were available to try and meet all the requests, getting used to her job as Hokage, getting used to all the shinobi she had under her command, then Lee's surgery and recovery etc...she wasn't drinking or gambling.

Until I actually see what it was Tsunade was doing that was more
important than keeping the Sharingan out of Orochimaru's hands
I will still consider her an ultimate failure of an excuse of a Hokage.

It doesn't matter. A sharingan is a sharingan.
The mere fact it can copy jutsu is dangerous enough.

Yeah but having it doesn't make you immortal (at least not with the regular sharingan that Sasuke had) so at the end you can't really compare it to a bijuu.

Like I said the sharingan is the sharingan. Cloud and Leaf had the whole
fiasco with Hinata's Byukugan when it wasn't fully developed. Allowing
dojutsu eyes to get into enemy hands is not a good idea. The Uchiha
were known to once been one of the strongest clans in Konoha.
With the potential the sharingan has (as seen in Itachi and Kakashi)
the last thing Konoha should want is for their enemies to get ahold
of it's power. But they did just that thanks to Tsunade's pitfulness.


If Danzo was Hokage he would have had fought Pain with no questions
asked. He would not waste time trying to heal everyone before the
battle is over. Tsunade can't stand to sacrifice anyone whereas
Danzo knows it is a necessity.

Ah yeah...right. He would have gone out and bravely face Pain. Sure if you want to believe that then be my guest. No, he would have wasted time hiding and letting most people die just so he could save himself because of course the world couldn't survive without him. Tsunade has sacrificed others when it's necessary and most of the time she doesn't break down because of it. Pain killed Kakashi, he killed Shizune, he killed Jiraya too and she knew that and yet valued their sacrifices and knew they weren't wasted. I can't see how wanting to protect as many people as possible can be bad...I mean her strength is medical ninjutsu so what's wrong with using it? it's like asking Jiraya to fight without his toads, Oro with his snakes or Sasuke with his friggin overused, overpowered sharingan.

There once was a time when I thought like you do about Danzo.
I wrote a thread called "Vote Danzo For Hokage" which was a
tongue-in-cheek campaign for him that said Danzo was the
best candidate while having an underlying message that he really wasn't.

I first liked Danzo's character as a villain when he was Candidate Hokage.
He was ruthless, despicable, cowardly, and selfish. All the markings of a
great villain. He rivaled even Madara as a villain. But with his fight against
Sasuke, I could see see that there was a method to Danzo's madness.
Danzo will never be a good guy. But he is necessary. Danzo is the
embodiment of the ugly truth of the ninja world. People want to think
that everything is going to be sunshine and daisies and if things go
bad we can turn to Naruto and just "believe it". By Danzo knows how
the world really works. He is not so naive. Danzo is cruel because
the world is cruel. He is crafty because the world is crafty.
Danzo knows that sacrifices must be made in order for their to be peace.
Again as I said Danzo will never be a good guy but he doesn't need to be.

Raikage has his problems but considering the Cloud Village is the strongest he's obviously doing something right.

It's not that he's doing something right because so far he hasn't done anything at all. It's just that out of all the options he was the better choice as leader of the alliance. And maybe I missed that part because I didn't know they were the strongest....

It is said in the databooks that they are strongest village.
It's pretty clear why it is, their team work is superb.


Tsunade probably would be forced to accept Sasuke's death warrant.
The problem is that she let it get this far. She treated dealing with
Sasuke as a "better luck next time" ordeal rather than an emergency.

Yeah she made a mistake but so did Hashirama when he allowed Madara to just walk out of the village with so much hate, so did Sarutobi when he failed to kill Oro the first time.

What could Hashirama have done?


Yep it was convenient for Danzo. But his convenience is often
for the good of the village. What's bad for Danzo is bad for the village.

I think it was just luck and definitely not. So getting all those sharingan and using them like that after the massacre was good for the village how? it's not like he even got rid of Sasuke or Madara.

Once again, Danzo is known only for his failures.

Tsunade's running off isn't much of an excuse either. She's a kunoichi
who has responsibilities to the village but she ignored them. She's
almost as bad as Sasuke is.

When did it say she run off? Was she a fugitive at some point? She left the village but so did Jiraya and he was extremely loyal to Konoha. She didn't ignore her responsibilities but after serving Konoha as well as she did she had every right to leave IMO. She didn't escape from Konoha, she left and then came back. Lots of people do that and it doesn't mean they're traitors or irresponsible. There was no war going on...Sasuke's problem wasn't that he left the village but why he left.

Some time during the Find Tsunade Arc. Because of Nawaki and Dan's
death, Tsunade basically gave up being a kuniochi and spent her time
drinking and gambling. Now she's Hokage and does the same.

Danzo is not righteous. Danzo is not good. Danzo is competent.
Konoha under Danzo would be a cruel place to live but it would be strong.
It doesn't really matter what Danzo's intentions were as what needed
to be done was to get rid of Sasuke and Madara. He failed but he took
the initiative.


Yeah so you rather everything Hashirama, Tobirama, Sarutobi and Minato worked for got thrown away like garbage as long there's strength? Danzou didn't take any initiative....he was forced to fight for his "so important" life.:roll:

Better than it getting thrown as long there's weakness.

Danzo sent Sai Shaft to kill Sasuke in Volume 34 and if you
notice it was because Sai Shaft was put on that mission that
Yamato was able to track him and Team 7 found Sasuke.
They failed to capture Sasuke but without the mission
Danzo put Sai Shaft on they would stand even less chance.

Then Danzo fought Sasuke one on one after the Kage Summit.
Danzo could have run off while Madara fought Foo and Torune
but Danzo didn't. He planned to fight and defeat them and
add more sharingan to his arsenal. Danzo's plan was to
gather a bunch of strength which he would use to protect
the village. Sadly, because Sasuke is too important to the plot
Danzo had to die.

SimpleGenin
08-01-2010, 02:54 AM
their's alot to argue about this topic and it really is based on individual opinion. but if you asked me.. if i was a ninja in the naruto world, i would rather live under Tsunade or Kakashi as hokage but never under Danzo. Danzo is the kind of person that even sealed his own followers from speaking free will.. There is no excuse to his ill character.

mrsticky005
08-01-2010, 04:07 AM
their's alot to argue about this topic and it really is based on individual opinion. but if you asked me.. if i was a ninja in the naruto world, i would rather live under Tsunade or Kakashi as hokage but never under Danzo. Danzo is the kind of person that even sealed his own followers from speaking free will.. There is no excuse to his ill character.


I have to agree here. Danzo's regime would be oppressive.
I don't think he would be cruel just to be cruel like Madara would
but he would be incredibly strict and severe. Tsunade is the
opposite, she is very lax hence why Sasuke wasn't dealt
with sooner. Tsunade's ideal Konoha would settle matters
through diplomacy and compromise. Danzo's ideal Konoha
would settle matters through conquest and battle.
Tsunade's Konoha is liked by other villages but laughed
at behind it's back. Danzo's Konoha is hated but feared
by other villages. Tsunade's Konoha's worst enemy is
outside forces. Danzo's Konoha's worst enemy is inside rebellion.

Wooster
08-01-2010, 07:23 AM
Yes, because he was human he made a mistake. Same as Tsunade.

Maybe, but he fixed his mistake when he had the chance. At least Konoha
ANBU had strict orders to hunt down Orochimaru. Tsunade screwed up and then let Sasuke do whatever he pleased.
While I agree he needs some controlling he wouldn't really be the Naruto I like if he was under control all the time. Besides it's not like they're on the same team or anything...he gets a little bit of control from Kakashi or Yamato and then Sakura's punches.

She gives him mission. She is the leader, if she gives him permission it's not like anyone else would over rule her. Being a good leader means understanding your member's weakness and strengths. She might understand Naruto's strength, but she never considers his weakness. Not to mention all the other decisions she makes like goading Pain into destroying the village.:roll:

Yeah so you rather everything Hashirama, Tobirama, Sarutobi and Minato worked for got thrown away like garbage as long there's strength? Danzou didn't take any initiative....he was forced to fight for his "so important" life.:roll:
This wasn't directed at me, but Danzo wouldn't undermine EVERYTHING his predecessors built. Remember the Third was pretty harsh before he was retconned. Not to mention, it seems that Tobirama was quiet the hard ass. Besides what does it matter if the entire world is taken over by Madara? At least Danzo had a plan unlike Tsunade, who almost seems willfully blind at times.


There once was a time when I thought like you do about Danzo.
I wrote a thread called "Vote Danzo For Hokage" which was a
tongue-in-cheek campaign for him that said Danzo was the
best candidate while having an underlying message that he really wasn't.

I first liked Danzo's character as a villain when he was Candidate Hokage.
He was ruthless, despicable, cowardly, and selfish. All the markings of a
great villain. He rivaled even Madara as a villain. But with his fight against
Sasuke, I could see see that there was a method to Danzo's madness.
Danzo will never be a good guy. But he is necessary. Danzo is the
embodiment of the ugly truth of the ninja world. People want to think
that everything is going to be sunshine and daisies and if things go
bad we can turn to Naruto and just "believe it". By Danzo knows how
the world really works. He is not so naive. Danzo is cruel because
the world is cruel. He is crafty because the world is crafty.
Danzo knows that sacrifices must be made in order for their to be peace.
Again as I said Danzo will never be a good guy but he doesn't need to be.This is a perfect summary of Danzo. But really, mrsticky you didn't see the importance of Danzo right away, for shame.

I am glad you have come around to my point of view. ;)

Danzo is the flip side of the same coin as Naruto. Both believe in their convictions without a doubt in their mind. Neither is evil, although Danzo can't really be called good. Danzo's path is the old way, Naruto's path is the new way. Danzo' path gets results at the cost of friendship, happiness, loves etc. Naruto's path is an attempt to get the same results without the sacrifices.

What should of happened is a clash between these two world views, and it's an immense shame it didn't happen. The results would no doubt have put Naruto in a slightly bad light; Danzo isn't evil after all. This would have been the event to really cause Naruto to question and refine how he wants to change the world instead of the stupid Pain encounter. Naruto's vision is nice, but in the end force is needed to stop evil. It would have been great to see Naruto confront and struggle with this, but it was no to be..\

mrsticky005
08-01-2010, 07:25 AM
This wasn't directed at me, but Danzo wouldn't undermine EVERYTHING his predecessors built. Remember the Third was pretty harsh before he was retconned. Not to mention, it seems that Tobirama was quiet the hard ass. Besides what does it matter if the entire world is taken over by Madara? At least Danzo had a plan unlike Tsunade, who almost seems willfully blind at times.

You know I think Danzo and Hiruzen (before the retcon)
are more alike than Danzo would ever care to admit.

Bulldog
08-01-2010, 07:26 AM
I have to agree here. Danzo's regime would be oppressive.
I don't think he would be cruel just to be cruel like Madara would
but he would be incredibly strict and severe. Tsunade is the
opposite, she is very lax hence why Sasuke wasn't dealt
with sooner. Tsunade's ideal Konoha would settle matters
through diplomacy and compromise. Danzo's ideal Konoha
would settle matters through conquest and battle.
Tsunade's Konoha is liked by other villages but laughed
at behind it's back. Danzo's Konoha is hated but feared
by other villages. Tsunade's Konoha's worst enemy is
outside forces. Danzo's Konoha's worst enemy is inside rebellion.


this and except I am too lazy to even begin to write this rep up.

Wooster
08-01-2010, 08:14 AM
You know I think Danzo and Hiruzen (before the retcon)
are more alike than Danzo would ever care to admit.
Well Danzo did kind of admit in the awful flashback >.>

But yeah, they are almost exactly alike. Well, Sarutobi still had emotions, see the Iruka encounter, but in the end they viewed the Ninja world the same.

mrsticky005
08-01-2010, 08:38 AM
This wasn't directed at me, but Danzo wouldn't undermine EVERYTHING his predecessors built. Remember the Third was pretty harsh before he was retconned. Not to mention, it seems that Tobirama was quiet the hard ass. Besides what does it matter if the entire world is taken over by Madara? At least Danzo had a plan unlike Tsunade, who almost seems willfully blind at times.
This is a perfect summary of Danzo. But really, mrsticky you didn't see the importance of Danzo right away, for shame.

I am glad you have come around to my point of view. ;)

Danzo is the flip side of the same coin as Naruto. Both believe in their convictions without a doubt in their mind. Neither is evil, although Danzo can't really be called good. Danzo's path is the old way, Naruto's path is the new way. Danzo' path gets results at the cost of friendship, happiness, loves etc. Naruto's path is an attempt to get the same results without the sacrifices.

What should of happened is a clash between these two world views, and it's an immense shame it didn't happen. The results would no doubt have put Naruto in a slightly bad light; Danzo isn't evil after all. This would have been the event to really cause Naruto to question and refine how he wants to change the world instead of the stupid Pain encounter. Naruto's vision is nice, but in the end force is needed to stop evil. It would have been great to see Naruto confront and struggle with this, but it was no to be..\


I was reading Volumes 32-34 online. Reading a chapter or so per week
tends to make me more forgettable and not notice the sub plots as much.
Which is why I like the volumes better because I read a good chunk at
once and the puzzle fits together better. When I first read Volumes
32-34 I found it dull because I was too focused on the main plot
of finding Sasuke. However rereading Volumes 32-34 in the books
(which I own) I found the Danzo sub-plot to be much more interesting
than the main plot. I had read the Danzo Candidate Hokage chapters
before I read the volumes 32-34 so it was like "Whoa...this guy means
business." It's quite a shame I didn't see it coming. Danzo however
is very rare character type in Naruto. I was surprised when he
was revealed to not be a villain because that's the vibe I got at first.
The Danzo/Naruto rivalry would have been sheer brilliance as they
could learn so much from one another.

Wooster
08-01-2010, 09:26 AM
I was reading Volumes 32-34 online. Reading a chapter or so per week
tends to make me more forgettable and not notice the sub plots as much.
Which is why I like the volumes better because I read a good chunk at
once and the puzzle fits together better. When I first read Volumes
32-34 I found it dull because I was too focused on the main plot
of finding Sasuke. However rereading Volumes 32-34 in the books
(which I own) I found the Danzo sub-plot to be much more interesting
than the main plot. I had read the Danzo Candidate Hokage chapters
before I read the volumes 32-34 so it was like "Whoa...this guy means
business." It's quite a shame I didn't see it coming. Danzo however
is very rare character type in Naruto. I was surprised when he
was revealed to not be a villain because that's the vibe I got at first.
The Danzo/Naruto rivalry would have been sheer brilliance as they
could learn so much from one another.
Yeah, I guess that explains it. I got into it late, so I think I first saw that through the anime. That was an awesome way to be introduced to Danzo.
I miss those days, really I like the anime better, but no going back now.

But yes, it was fascination. It was great because at that time Kabuto's character was completely neutered at the time. It was hard seeing my favorite character become garden variety trash. I had to find a new antihero to root for.

That would have been great. Think of it: a Naruto/Danzo civil war that ends when they both agree to join forces to take down Madara. Danzo, of course, dies in the battle, and is only remembered by Naruto as the hero he truly is. Everyone else remembers him as the scum that nearly took over the world. However, that is irrelevant to Danzo because he made a sacrifice to save the world just like all ninja should.

3littlepigs
08-01-2010, 09:35 AM
Originally Posted by mrsticky005 http://www.naruto.viz.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3705284#post3705284)
It would help a lot more if Kishimoto just killed off her.

Yeah well we have that in common don't we? I would love for Sasuke to disappear but I don't see it happening anytime soon and it seems you missed your chance with Tsunade as well since Kishi brought her back from that coma.

Kakashi didn't become Hokage not because he refused but
because Tsunade had to unfortunately wake up from her coma.

Yeah that's why I said I was disappointed he didn't become one. I never said he "rejected" the position only that he never became one.

It's not like the Sound Four are generic looking ninja. They stand out.
You have to be blind to miss them. Also the Sound Ninja wear headbands
that say they are from the Sound Village.

Only the ANBU (which most got killed anyway) even saw them and like you said they only knew they were from the sound village not that they were a super "strong"team which Oro would send after Sasuke.

It was obvious Sasuke wanted Itachi dead and was desperate.
Orochimaru didn't make his plans to bring Sasuke to himself
that much of a secret either. There were plenty of warning
signs but everyone just shrugged them off as nothing to worry about.

Yeah he wanted Itachi dead but maybe he wanted to do it the right way and kill him with his own strength? He could have chosen a different path that would have still ended with him "killing" Itachi. And like you just said "everyone" shrugged it off not just Tsunade. Sarutobi is included in that whole thing I'm sorry and yet you still don't think less of him.

Until I actually see what it was Tsunade was doing that was more
important than keeping the Sharingan out of Orochimaru's hands
I will still consider her an ultimate failure of an excuse of a Hokage.

Well since that's never gonna happen let's leave it at that and anyways even if you did see it you wouldn't change your mind.

Like I said the sharingan is the sharingan. Cloud and Leaf had the whole
fiasco with Hinata's Byukugan when it wasn't fully developed. Allowing
dojutsu eyes to get into enemy hands is not a good idea. The Uchiha
were known to once been one of the strongest clans in Konoha.
With the potential the sharingan has (as seen in Itachi and Kakashi)
the last thing Konoha should want is for their enemies to get ahold
of it's power. But they did just that thanks to Tsunade's pitfulness.

Oro wasn't really working for another country/village as powerful as the Cloud village anyway and it would still take him a while to get the sharingan from Sasuke. Even if it still had been Sarutobi I doubt they were going to be able to bring him back...besides the obvious reasons for the plot even Naruto had to become a mini Kyuubi to even get to Sasuke.

I first liked Danzo's character as a villain when he was Candidate Hokage.
He was ruthless, despicable, cowardly, and selfish. All the markings of a
great villain. He rivaled even Madara as a villain. But with his fight against
Sasuke, I could see see that there was a method to Danzo's madness.
Danzo will never be a good guy. But he is necessary. Danzo is the
embodiment of the ugly truth of the ninja world. People want to think
that everything is going to be sunshine and daisies and if things go
bad we can turn to Naruto and just "believe it". By Danzo knows how
the world really works. He is not so naive. Danzo is cruel because
the world is cruel. He is crafty because the world is crafty.
Danzo knows that sacrifices must be made in order for their to be peace.
Again as I said Danzo will never be a good guy but he doesn't need to be.

Yeah I never said he wasn't necessary, it's the same with Sasuke they're both needed. Still I can't "like" him not because he's supposed to be one of the bad guys or whatever but because of the kind of person he was. You hate how Tsunade taints the name of Hokage because she doesn't take her job seriously or whatever, because she gambles and drinks...well I hated how Danzou did the same in other ways. I know he was "efficient" but his methods I couldn't stand...a Hokage should be strong yes but where you get you're strength from also matters IMO. The way you do things and how you treat people should matter too but obviously you just prefer that the village be strong. I mean trying to control how the summit went was how a Hokage should have acted? He didn't just want to take care of Konoha...he thought he was needed or else the whole world would fall apart...

The world is cruel but you can choose to be different....then if follow your reasoning let's have Nagato as Hokage he wouldn't have been much different from Danzou. It's not that people want to believe everything is sunshine and happiness it's that they need to believe that.

It is said in the databooks that they are strongest village.
It's pretty clear why it is, their team work is superb.

Well there you go I don't read the databooks.

What could Hashirama have done?

Well following your reasoning wasn't he responsible for preventing Madara's come back in the first place? You act as though Tsunade should have used magic and fixed everything around her as soon as she became Hokage but it was ok for Hashirama to let Madara go? Madara who was always his rival, who was never ok with peace between them, who is an egotistical person? pretty obvious he was gonna come back to get revenge.

Once again, Danzo is known only for his failures.

Well Tsunade's mostly known for her temper, her "humorous" habit of drinking and gambling. Blame that on Kishi.

Some time during the Find Tsunade Arc. Because of Nawaki and Dan's
death, Tsunade basically gave up being a kuniochi and spent her time
drinking and gambling. Now she's Hokage and does the same.

Yeah so she gave up on her job....she was emotionally unstable so I think she did the right thing. Besides if she was a fugitive Jiraya wouldn't have suggested she be Hokage and the two elders wouldn't have agreed. She obviously left in good terms.

Better than it getting thrown as long there's weakness.

Danzo sent Sai Shaft to kill Sasuke in Volume 34 and if you
notice it was because Sai Shaft was put on that mission that
Yamato was able to track him and Team 7 found Sasuke.
They failed to capture Sasuke but without the mission
Danzo put Sai Shaft on they would stand even less chance.

Then Danzo fought Sasuke one on one after the Kage Summit.
Danzo could have run off while Madara fought Foo and Torune
but Danzo didn't. He planned to fight and defeat them and
add more sharingan to his arsenal. Danzo's plan was to
gather a bunch of strength which he would use to protect
the village. Sadly, because Sasuke is too important to the plot
Danzo had to die.

See we think differently...I don't think he could have run away from Madara not when Madara is serious anyway. He had no option but to fight and he knew that that's why instead of turning his back and leaving himself wide open he got ready to fight not because he wanted to face either Madara or Sasuke. What he probably wanted was control of the Kyuubi....:roll:
This wasn't directed at me, but Danzo wouldn't undermine EVERYTHING his predecessors built. Remember the Third was pretty harsh before he was retconned. Not to mention, it seems that Tobirama was quiet the hard ass. Besides what does it matter if the entire world is taken over by Madara? At least Danzo had a plan unlike Tsunade, who almost seems willfully blind at times.

Danzou met with Madara before yet did he do anything all those years to try and get rid of him? now you're probable gonna say he took all those sharingans to fight Madara yeah right he was just greedy and I still think he wanted the Kyuubi. Anyway Tsunade didn't even know about Madara until she woke up! You guys are asking miracles even when she was unconscious.....that's ridiculous. Now she's working with the alliance no? she gave in and sent Naruto with Bee so she's obviously doing something about it.

Bulldog
08-01-2010, 09:44 AM
See we think differently...I don't think he could have run away from Madara not when Madara is serious anyway. He had no option but to fight and he knew that that's why instead of turning his back and leaving himself wide open he got ready to fight not because he wanted to face either Madara or Sasuke. What he probably wanted was control of the Kyuubi....:roll:

Danzou met with Madara before yet did he do anything all those years to try and get rid of him? now you're probable gonna say he took all those sharingans to fight Madara yeah right he was just greedy and I still think he wanted the Kyuubi. Anyway Tsunade didn't even know about Madara until she woke up! You guys are asking miracles even when she was unconscious.....that's ridiculous. Now she's working with the alliance no? she gave in and sent Naruto with Bee so she's obviously doing something about it.


The point of debating is to get someone on your side... your starting to make me see the light rep up.

Wooster
08-01-2010, 09:52 AM
Danzou met with Madara before yet did he do anything all those years to try and get rid of him? now you're probable gonna say he took all those sharingans to fight Madara yeah right he was just greedy and I still think he wanted the Kyuubi. Anyway Tsunade didn't even know about Madara until she woke up! You guys are asking miracles even when she was unconscious.....that's ridiculous. Now she's working with the alliance no? she gave in and sent Naruto with Bee so she's obviously doing something about it.
He met him, we don't know that he knew at the time he was Madara. All we do know is that from that point forward he was planning to stop Madara. You just mentioned things Danzo did to stop Madara, get Sharingan and mutate his own body with the First's DNA.

Danzo did not do those things for greed. Danzo probably does not know how to be greedy. He did those things to control the Nine Tailed Fox and defeat Madara. Remember Madara did extract the fox from Kushina; Madara could do the same to Naruto. Danzo was trying to prevent this. He does not want power for himself, he believes he needs power to stop Madara.

Tsunade may not have know about Madara, she is pretty stupid after all, but she did know about the Akatsuki, Orochimaru, and Sasuke. And yet, she did nothing but react to them. She never led.

Remember before Danzo there was no alliance, and there wasn't going to be one. You cannot argue that Danzo was wrong here he, was right. How was the alliance going to form? The only reason that it did was because Madara popped in with Sasuke. There is no way Danzo could have predicted this, so he did what needed to be done. Unfortunately, Ao had a stolen Byakugan.

Finally, Tsunade did indeed join the Ninja Alliance, but look at what she did there. She carries her over abundant faith in Naruto right into the meeting and argues for a point that the rest of the council unanimously rejects, even Gaara. She looks like an utter fool. She may be 50, but she acts like a 12 year old. She is not a team player and has no patience. She is a atrocious leader, that is that.

gama-sennin
08-01-2010, 09:56 AM
That would have been great. Think of it: a Naruto/Danzo civil war that ends when they both agree to join forces to take down Madara. Danzo, of course, dies in the battle, and is only remembered by Naruto as the hero he truly is. Everyone else remembers him as the scum that nearly took over the world. However, that is irrelevant to Danzo because he made a sacrifice to save the world just like all ninja should.

That is more like Snape than like Danzo.


The thing is both Danzo and Naruto should not exist in real world, but sadly they do.

Danzo because he excessively secretive, a liar and an emotionless control freak along with other things I have forgotten to mention. When Konoha needed him, he decided to wait in dungeon. If his kind rules the world then it will be a disaster like failure of communism.

Naruto because his ideals suck and there is no other word to describe them. There will never be peace just because you are willing to forgive your enemy. If you dont believe me, ask that to Gandhi and he will say the same thing. Naruto with his excessive peaceful preaching will only create cowards, cowards who will never be able to hold their own against someone more powerful than themselves. At the mere mention of war they will make compromises. This gives rise to bigger evil than the old one. The finest example is "Neville chamberlain" and his policy towards "Hitler".

The power should be in hands of someone like Kakashi or Minato. These kind of people are the best to lead a mob.

Wooster
08-01-2010, 10:01 AM
That is more like Snape than like Danzo.


The this is both Danzo and Naruto should not exist in real world, but sadly they do.

Danzo because he excessively secretive, a liar and an emotionless control freak along with other things I have forgotten to mention. When Konoha needed him, he decided to wait in dungeon. If his kind rules the world then it will be a disaster like failure of communism.

Naruto because his ideals suck and there is no other word to describe them. There will never be peace just because you are willing to forgive your enemy. If you dont believe me, ask that to Gandhi and he will say the same thing. Naruto with his excessive peaceful preaching will only create cowards, cowards who will never be able to hold their own against someone more powerful than themselves. At the mere mention of war they will make compromises. This gives rise to bigger evil than the old one. The finest example is "Neville chamberlain" and his policy towards "Hitler".

The power should be in hands of someone like Kakashi or Minato. These kind of people are the best to lead a mob.
At least his stupidity didn't cause Pain to level Konoha. That's all on Tsunade.

I would say Danzo is more like totalitarian China. Harsh and ruthless, but it gets the job done. It seems like it is still alive and kicking.

Naruto would create cowards?! What?! Is Naruto a coward? No, he may be a bit naive, but he is never a coward. There is no possible way he would create a world of cowards.

Lead a mob? What the bell? I think the ninja of Konoha are bit wiser than a mob.

gama-sennin
08-01-2010, 10:16 AM
At least his stupidity didn't cause Pain to level Konoha. That's all on Tsunade.

But if only he had kept the differences aside and helped Tsunade, things would have different. No doubt there was plot but in real world people don't come back from death just because of PnJ.

I would say Danzo is more like totalitarian China. Harsh and ruthless, but it gets the job done. It seems like it is still alive and kicking.

China is good but the question is how long the honeymoon will last. No doubt they have greatest stockpile of US $ and are a military power too boot. But the thing is unless they slow down and spread the development(lopsided) they are going to have problems in future.

Naruto would create cowards?! What?! Is Naruto a coward? No, he may be a bit naive, but he is never a coward. There is no possible way he would create a world of cowards.

Naruto is not a coward. No trendsetter is ever a coward. Its their followers after say 100 years, who screw up the preachings and mess up everything. Naruto's ideals of forgiving the enemy will be good initially but the more those ideals will be practiced the more it will become a habit to just let it go and this is what leads to indifference and cowardice.

Lead a mob? What the bell? I think the ninja of Konoha are bit wiser than a mob.

I mean mob as a group of people without leaders or stuff. See, without these boundaries and customs of so-called society most of the civilized people behave like a mob when they get together. Its the leadership that determines the objective of the group whether they are to act as a stone pelting, property torching mob or a group with its individuals in control of themselves.

Yellow.

Pains Pain
08-01-2010, 02:45 PM
She is quite good at handling paperwork and explaining useful methods on how to keep he village safe, such as Pains Invasion, she handled that pretty ok with her medical slug to help her and the people, however...she lacks combat skills, she didnt do well when Pain eradicated the village, if jiraya was hokage he wouldve taken care of him and saved everyone the work of rebuilding the village and more importantly, their lives, but unfortunatly Tsunade and her group of "Elites" wasnt enough

TheBlackChidori
08-01-2010, 04:06 PM
Two words. Jonin Shortage.

mrsticky005
08-01-2010, 06:11 PM
Two words. Jonin Shortage.


Yeah, probably.


Now is this due to a low population...


or are there too many chunin who haven't
been trained well enough to become Jonin?

3littlepigs
08-01-2010, 09:44 PM
He met him, we don't know that he knew at the time he was Madara. All we do know is that from that point forward he was planning to stop Madara. You just mentioned things Danzo did to stop Madara, get Sharingan and mutate his own body with the First's DNA.

Danzo did not do those things for greed. Danzo probably does not know how to be greedy. He did those things to control the Nine Tailed Fox and defeat Madara. Remember Madara did extract the fox from Kushina; Madara could do the same to Naruto. Danzo was trying to prevent this. He does not want power for himself, he believes he needs power to stop Madara.

Tsunade may not have know about Madara, she is pretty stupid after all, but she did know about the Akatsuki, Orochimaru, and Sasuke. And yet, she did nothing but react to them. She never led.

Remember before Danzo there was no alliance, and there wasn't going to be one. You cannot argue that Danzo was wrong here he, was right. How was the alliance going to form? The only reason that it did was because Madara popped in with Sasuke. There is no way Danzo could have predicted this, so he did what needed to be done. Unfortunately, Ao had a stolen Byakugan.

Finally, Tsunade did indeed join the Ninja Alliance, but look at what she did there. She carries her over abundant faith in Naruto right into the meeting and argues for a point that the rest of the council unanimously rejects, even Gaara. She looks like an utter fool. She may be 50, but she acts like a 12 year old. She is not a team player and has no patience. She is a atrocious leader, that is that.
Yeah if it had been Tsunade then it would have given you more reason to say she's a joke as Hokage and that she never does her job right but because it was Danzou then all of a sudden it's more probable he didn't know it was Madara. He most likely worked with him and he had no idea where this powerful strange masked man came from or who he was?

The things I mentioned can have different meanings depending on your point of view. In my case I see it as proof that he wanted the Uchiha out of the way and that just like Oro and thousand others he wanted the power of the sharingan only in his case he went a little too far...not that it helped him survive anyways. Where did it say that he did all that just to get rid of Madara? Just as you just said we don't know.

He was greedy. He just wasn't aware that the way he acted was greedy. I completely understand in his mind he always thought he did it for Konoha's sake but it doesn't mean that's the truth. So if he really did think having the Kyuubi under control was the only way to defeat Madara why not try and help Naruto control the bijuu since he's already its host? I'm not saying Danzou could have made Naruto control it but just like Jiraya wanted Naruto to succeed in controlling it Danzou could have tried to support him. Yet he wanted it for himself, it had to be under his control otherwise they wouldn't stand a chance of defeating Madara. How is that not selfish or arrogant?

Madara took it from Kushina because 1) she was giving birth and 2) Minato chose Naruto's safety. Naruto could have been captured yes just like Gaara but how is Danzou any different? His sharingans weren't going to last forever and sooner or later his control over the Kyuubi would fade away meaning he had to become a Jinchuriki himself. Then wouldn't he have been in the same position as Naruto?

So pretty much everyone is stupid in the Narutoverse? I mean except for a few people like Jiraya no one knew about the Akatsuki. And how is not knowing about Madara being stupid? Not many people would even consider he could be alive....she had never seen him or fought him so why would she know? She send several teams after the Akatsuki once they were in the Fire country so you can't say she did nothing. She let Team 7 go meet Sasori's "spy" didn't she? they weren't expecting that.

Fortunately he had a stolen Byakugan. The point of the meeting was to come to an agreement even if it wasn't exactly an "alliance". Yet as fragile as the system already is and as fragile as the village's relations are he didn't try to do anything honorably or believe that he could be good enough to get something done by winning their trust. He simply did what he did best...trick people and stab them behind their back.

She may act like a 12 yr old because of her temper I won't argue that. Still, if you're gonna compare her to Gaara who is like a 50 yr old in the body of 16 yr old...I mean even the Tsuchikage looked immature compared to him. She wasn't at the other meeting so of course it's not like she had the chance to even predict how the meeting would go. Did the Kages behave like that during their first meeting? especially Raikage? didn't all the Jonin draw their weapons in the middle of the meeting? This time everyone was calmer so of course Tsunade's going to be more noticeable. Also Raikake can't even control Bee so he's pretty much the same and he only looks like a responsible, reasonable, calm leader because Madara hasn't killed Bee yet. Tsunade has faith in Naruto...maybe too much faith but I'm sure Raikage is the same with Bee.

She's no team player but then again doesn't that apply to every Kage? You yourself said the alliance wouldn't have happened unless Madara interrupted the meeting. Why? because they were all too proud to try and see each others point of view. Even Gaara for that matter cares so much about Naruto's sake he doesn't even consider his feelings anymore and he should know by experience Naruto will be at that war. Tsunade probably already knows that so she might not be so stupid after all.
The point of debating is to get someone on your side... your starting to make me see the light rep up.
lol :D

3littlepigs
08-01-2010, 09:45 PM
Yeah, probably.


Now is this due to a low population...


or are there too many chunin who haven't
been trained well enough to become Jonin?
Even then look at the ANBU...they get killed so easily each and every time it makes you wonder what the difference between them and a genin really is :shock:

mrsticky005
08-01-2010, 09:50 PM
Even then look at the ANBU...they get killed so easily each and every time it makes you wonder what the difference between them and a genin really is :shock:

Once again terrible writing on Kishimoto's part.

3littlepigs
08-01-2010, 09:54 PM
Once again terrible writing on Kishimoto's part.
That and laziness ;)

Dark-Sasuke
08-01-2010, 10:18 PM
yeah, but sasuke being a missing-nin makes the story go round!

mrsticky005
08-01-2010, 10:18 PM
That and laziness ;)

Laziness would be the cause. Terrible writing is the effect.

SimpleGenin
08-01-2010, 10:44 PM
Laziness would be the cause. Terrible writing is the effect.
haha if thats what you guys really think I wonder what's stopping you guys from liking other anime/manga. no ones stopping you :)

Kishimoto is a GREAT writer. He made the Narutoworld in away that relates to the real world. An example is Pain's character and his belief of what peace is. Reading and watching Naruto made me this person that wants peace in the world and a person that can someday help people in poorer country such as Africa. Thats why I applied for the Navy. So that I can someday be one of the best in the medical field. Kishimoto's a great writer and NO Naruto fan have the right to judge him or his writings.

3littlepigs
08-01-2010, 11:08 PM
haha if thats what you guys really think I wonder what's stopping you guys from liking other anime/manga. no ones stopping you :)

Kishimoto is a GREAT writer. He made the Narutoworld in away that relates to the real world. An example is Pain's character and his belief of what peace is. Reading and watching Naruto made me this person that wants peace in the world and a person that can someday help people in poorer country such as Africa. Thats why I applied for the Navy. So that I can someday be one of the best in the medical field. Kishimoto's a great writer and NO Naruto fan have the right to judge him or his writings.
There's nothing stopping me from "linking" other manga or anime because I already do. Just because there are some things that don't make sense in his story doesn't mean I don't like it or that I think any less of him as a mangaka so please spare me the lecture. Also it's because I'm such a great fan that I can criticize it without overdoing it AND still enjoy the series. And by the way I'm always one of the few asking what haters of the series are doing here so you shouldn't judge me on small comment I made.

SimpleGenin
08-01-2010, 11:17 PM
There's nothing stopping me from "linking" other manga or anime because I already do. Just because there are some things that don't make sense in his story doesn't mean I don't like it or that I think any less of him as a mangaka so please spare me the lecture. Also it's because I'm such a great fan that I can criticize it without overdoing it AND still enjoy the series. And by the way I'm always one of the few asking what haters of the series are doing here so you shouldn't judge me on small comment I made.
no matter what you say, you lack respect for Kishimoto's writing, the evidence are all over this thread. In alot of points I somewhat agreed with you but there was a point where you went too far.
A low blow to Kishimoto's writing.

gama-sennin
08-01-2010, 11:21 PM
no matter what you say, you lack respect for Kishimoto's writing, the evidence are all over this thread. In alot of points I somewhat agreed with you but there was a point where you went too far.
A low blow to Kishimoto's writing.

Dont worry kishi cant read. Otherwise he would have known how much his story and character development sucks sometimes. The story is good again but few characters like Tsunade, sakura, lee, neji still suck from development POV. Sakura and Tsunade mostly. They are supposed to be leading female characters and arent even in top ten anymore.

3littlepigs
08-01-2010, 11:37 PM
no matter what you say, you lack respect for Kishimoto's writing, the evidence are all over this thread. In alot of points I somewhat agreed with you but there was a point where you went too far.
A low blow to Kishimoto's writing.
lol I lack respect for his writing? couldn't you have written that bigger and brighter so I could miss it? yeah ok if that makes you happy then fine I do. I didn't know it was a sin to criticize something you like and you invest so much time in. I'm sure Kishi doesn't live in fantasy world thinking everyone out there thinks he's perfect and I'm sure he knows even die hard fans aren't going to agree with everything or miss a few plot holes and undeveloped characters here and there.

Could you please point out exactly when I went too far? or you're just saying that because you can't say anything else? excuse me for having an opinion and not idolizing him to the point of being obsessive like you.

mrsticky005
08-02-2010, 05:15 AM
haha if thats what you guys really think I wonder what's stopping you guys from liking other anime/manga. no ones stopping you :)

Kishimoto is a GREAT writer. He made the Narutoworld in away that relates to the real world. An example is Pain's character and his belief of what peace is. Reading and watching Naruto made me this person that wants peace in the world and a person that can someday help people in poorer country such as Africa. Thats why I applied for the Navy. So that I can someday be one of the best in the medical field. Kishimoto's a great writer and NO Naruto fan have the right to judge him or his writings.


I never said I didn't enjoy Naruto.

I'm just the type of person who likes to over analyze things. :)

Kishimoto is probably a much better writer then we are often led to believe.

Writing Shonen (Boy's comic) can be limiting in what you can do.

Bulldog
08-02-2010, 06:00 AM
I never said I didn't enjoy Naruto.

I'm just the type of person who likes to over analyze things. :)

Kishimoto is probably a much better writer then we are often led to believe.

Writing Shonen (Boy's comic) can be limiting in what you can do.


first off that man deserves a medal. 2 when it comes to shonen comics writers sometimes must follow a formulaic pattern from time to time cause alot of teens out there dont exactly want or want to to try to think.

mrsticky005
08-02-2010, 06:04 AM
first off that man deserves a medal. 2 when it comes to shonen comics writers sometimes must follow a formulaic pattern from time to time cause alot of teens out there dont exactly want or want to to try to think.

Who deserves a medal? Kishimoto? I think the fact that Naruto sells as well as it does is better than any medal.

Yep, I probably think way too much...I should quit. It's a bad habit. :lol:

Bulldog
08-02-2010, 08:06 AM
Who deserves a medal? Kishimoto? I think the fact that Naruto sells as well as it does is better than any medal.

Yep, I probably think way too much...I should quit. It's a bad habit. :lol:


the guy you were quoting. simple genin

Wooster
08-02-2010, 08:57 PM
Yeah if it had been Tsunade then it would have given you more reason to say she's a joke as Hokage and that she never does her job right but because it was Danzou then all of a sudden it's more probable he didn't know it was Madara. He most likely worked with him and he had no idea where this powerful strange masked man came from or who he was?
He just MAY not have known. No one else did. Even if he did know, how could he stop Madara? No one else has.


The things I mentioned can have different meanings depending on your point of view. In my case I see it as proof that he wanted the Uchiha out of the way and that just like Oro and thousand others he wanted the power of the sharingan only in his case he went a little too far...not that it helped him survive anyways. Where did it say that he did all that just to get rid of Madara? Just as you just said we don't know.
He wanted to get rid of subversives. The Uchiha clan was going to rebel. Even Itachi agree to kill them. It was the right decision. Danzo said so himself. That's why he had to keep on living and why he tried to control the council.


He was greedy. He just wasn't aware that the way he acted was greedy. I completely understand in his mind he always thought he did it for Konoha's sake but it doesn't mean that's the truth. So if he really did think having the Kyuubi under control was the only way to defeat Madara why not try and help Naruto control the bijuu since he's already its host? I'm not saying Danzou could have made Naruto control it but just like Jiraya wanted Naruto to succeed in controlling it Danzou could have tried to support him. Yet he wanted it for himself, it had to be under his control otherwise they wouldn't stand a chance of defeating Madara. How is that not selfish or arrogant?
How would that help? Madara can control the Nine Tails. Danzo came up with a means to counteract Madara's control. Arrogant perhaps, with good reason, but not selfish. Danzo completely destroyed his own body in the process. Not to mention, we have plenty of evidence Danzo cares nothing about rewards or approval of others. He operates in the shadows after all for the sake of Konoha.


Madara took it from Kushina because 1) she was giving birth and 2) Minato chose Naruto's safety. Naruto could have been captured yes just like Gaara but how is Danzou any different? His sharingans weren't going to last forever and sooner or later his control over the Kyuubi would fade away meaning he had to become a Jinchuriki himself. Then wouldn't he have been in the same position as Naruto?
No I don't think that's what would have happened. It would be more like Madara. Danzo would control the Nine Tails, perhaps through Naruto.

So pretty much everyone is stupid in the Narutoverse? I mean except for a few people like Jiraya no one knew about the Akatsuki. And how is not knowing about Madara being stupid? Not many people would even consider he could be alive....she had never seen him or fought him so why would she know? She send several teams after the Akatsuki once they were in the Fire country so you can't say she did nothing. She let Team 7 go meet Sasori's "spy" didn't she? they weren't expecting that.

Ah ,yeah that's why Danzo is such a breath of fresh air. He actually know things. Danzo knew about Madara, Minato thought he did, Itachi did, Kabuto does. Look at that the smart people.

She let team find the spy after Sakura dumped it in her lap. That's all they were going to do. If it wasn't for Sai and Yamato's leadership, the team probably wouldn't have even followed Orochimaru back to his hide out. Danzo already had planned out to do that and kill Sasuke.

Fortunately he had a stolen Byakugan. The point of the meeting was to come to an agreement even if it wasn't exactly an "alliance". Yet as fragile as the system already is and as fragile as the village's relations are he didn't try to do anything honorably or believe that he could be good enough to get something done by winning their trust. He simply did what he did best...trick people and stab them behind their back.

There wasn't going to be any agreement. It was quite obvious. No on could win the trust of the others. Only the extraordinary circumstances of Madara caused the alliance. How did Danzo stab anyone in the back?

She may act like a 12 yr old because of her temper I won't argue that. Still, if you're gonna compare her to Gaara who is like a 50 yr old in the body of 16 yr old...I mean even the Tsuchikage looked immature compared to him. She wasn't at the other meeting so of course it's not like she had the chance to even predict how the meeting would go. Did the Kages behave like that during their first meeting? especially Raikage? didn't all the Jonin draw their weapons in the middle of the meeting? This time everyone was calmer so of course Tsunade's going to be more noticeable. Also Raikake can't even control Bee so he's pretty much the same and he only looks like a responsible, reasonable, calm leader because Madara hasn't killed Bee yet. Tsunade has faith in Naruto...maybe too much faith but I'm sure Raikage is the same with Bee.

She made the Raikage look reasonable. Nuff said. The Raikage can't control KB, but at least he doesn't encourage him. Also, he knew enough to hide KB and not put him on the front lines.

She's no team player but then again doesn't that apply to every Kage? You yourself said the alliance wouldn't have happened unless Madara interrupted the meeting. Why? because they were all too proud to try and see each others point of view. Even Gaara for that matter cares so much about Naruto's sake he doesn't even consider his feelings anymore and he should know by experience Naruto will be at that war. Tsunade probably already knows that so she might not be so stupid after all.

lol :D
At least when they agreed to be a team the other Kage work together. Would Danzo have flown off the handle when a reasonable idea was presented? I think not. Feelings? This war. If everyone dies, Naruto's feelings are meaningless.

mrsticky005
08-02-2010, 09:09 PM
At least when they agreed to be a team the other Kage work together. Would Danzo have flown off the handle when a reasonable idea was presented? I think not. Feelings? This war. If everyone dies, Naruto's feelings are meaningless.


You know come to think of it...

Princess Tsunade should be thanking Danzo
because in a sense he died in her stead.

Tsunade, had she not go comatose would have gone to the meeting
and would have likely been killed by Sasuke or at least just injured.
Tsunade lucked out by being comatose and Danzo went instead and
he didn't even get to be a recognized Hokage. Just sacrificed like one.

Also thanks to Danzo and Sai Shaft, Naruto found Sasuke in Volume 34
and had Naruto been stronger he could have stopped Sasuke...
but we all know how well that went.

X__Sasuke__X
08-02-2010, 09:11 PM
Wow this finally was brought up!!! I hate Tsunade, and this just made me hate her more!!!
I already thought she was a terrible Hokage. :P
She does absolutely NOTHING! For God's sake, Naruto's a Genin and he does more work than her!! He's really the only person that would chase Sasuke, even though Tsuande said she would send people out!
Man, I hate her. `|(

mrsticky005
08-02-2010, 09:16 PM
Wow this finally was brought up!!! I hate Tsunade, and this just made me hate her more!!!
I already thought she was a terrible Hokage. :P
She does absolutely NOTHING! For God's sake, Naruto's a Genin and he does more work than her!! He's really the only person that would chase Sasuke, even though Tsuande said she would send people out!
Man, I hate her. `|(

Not that I don't agree with you but Naruto is a special case for a genin...

Naruto is a genius (despite what Part 1 seemed to say.) and he's 16.

However Konohamaru, a 12 year old genin, rasenganed a Pain Path
which is more than I can say for what Tsunade did.

Wooster
08-02-2010, 09:18 PM
You know come to think of it...

Princess Tsunade should be thanking Danzo
because in a sense he died in her stead.

Tsunade, had she not go comatose would have gone to the meeting
and would have likely been killed by Sasuke or at least just injured.
Tsunade lucked out by being comatose and Danzo went instead and
he didn't even get to be a recognized Hokage. Just sacrificed like one.

Also thanks to Danzo and Sai Shaft, Naruto found Sasuke in Volume 34
and had Naruto been stronger he could have stopped Sasuke...
but we all know how well that went.
Damn straight she should be thankful. He also presented the Ninja Alliance idea. Heck, if he didn't at least focus the other Kages' minds on that idea, it might not have happened. Remember he only controlled Mifune's mind. Danzo's words and Mifune's words controlled by Danzo essentially convinced the other Kage to form an alliance.

Tsunade probably would have died; she is the weakest.

Tsunade should be extra thankful to Danzo, Since the advisors always seem to listen to him, at the time Danzo must have been in favor of Tsunade. He didn't present himself as Hokage at the time. Although, He probably thought she would be the dreary, world-weary Tsunade who didn't believe in anything but strength. Not the "stupid let's just believe in Naruto" idiot she became.

RockyL
08-02-2010, 09:29 PM
At first I liked Tsunade. She seemed pretty cool, almost invincible with that forehead diamond chakra thingy and the power to punch the living snot out of anyone. But in the end all that doesn't matter as she has crap decision making skills. I didn't want her to die or anything but when she went into that coma I was like "Awesome new Hokage time...oh crap don't let it be Danzo...Danzo is dead now. Kakashi!" And then she wakes up and I was literally like "ZOMG! Quick Shizune, cut her throat with your scalpel...no one will ever know." But now she is back and ruling as crapily as ever.
>.>

mrsticky005
08-02-2010, 09:42 PM
At first I liked Tsunade. She seemed pretty cool, almost invincible with that forehead diamond chakra thingy and the power to punch the living snot out of anyone. But in the end all that doesn't matter as she has crap decision making skills. I didn't want her to die or anything but when she went into that coma I was like "Awesome new Hokage time...oh crap don't let it be Danzo...Danzo is dead now. Kakashi!" And then she wakes up and I was literally like "ZOMG! Quick Shizune, cut her throat with your scalpel...no one will ever know." But now she is back and ruling as crapily as ever.
>.>


Yay! A convert! Now to convert you to Danzoism! `:P

TheBlackChidori
08-02-2010, 09:43 PM
Yeah, probably.


Now is this due to a low population...


or are there too many chunin who haven't
been trained well enough to become Jonin?

Way too many Chunin. To me, one of Tsunade's faults. Seems she promoted everyone and their brother to Chunin, but barely picked anyone for Jonin. Is it her fault? Not exactly. Seems like every 5 minutes though, she's summoning Guy, Yamato, or Kakashi to her office, and nobody else.

Perhaps even utilizing the Jonin she has more often, like Neji or any other Jonin. Its gotta take some serious skills to make Jonin, if people like Shikamaru haven't even made it yet.

But is this due to her faults as a leader, or the constant state of disarray her Konoha always seems to be in? She only had 2 years of peace to really work with, and in that time, she had to spend the whole time worrying about Sasuke and Akatsuki.

Do I think Tsunade is the best choice for Hokage? No. But I do think she's done the best with what she's had to work with. She took over after a devastating attack, and nearly died after the most recent one. Perhaps this coma will help lift her indecisiveness?

She seems to have built a leadership position based on Faith in her ninja, and furthering the Will Of Fire. She trusts even Genin to carry out A rank missions or higher. Foolish? Probably.

Maybe its time for Jonin Exams?

mrsticky005
08-02-2010, 09:46 PM
Way too many Chunin. To me, one of Tsunade's faults. Seems she promoted everyone and their brother to Chunin, but barely picked anyone for Jonin. Is it her fault? Not exactly. Seems like every 5 minutes though, she's summoning Guy, Yamato, or Kakashi to her office, and nobody else.

Perhaps even utilizing the Jonin she has more often, like Neji or any other Jonin. Its gotta take some serious skills to make Jonin, if people like Shikamaru haven't even made it yet.

But is this due to her faults as a leader, or the constant state of disarray her Konoha always seems to be in? She only had 2 years of peace to really work with, and in that time, she had to spend the whole time worrying about Sasuke and Akatsuki.

Do I think Tsunade is the best choice for Hokage? No. But I do think she's done the best with what she's had to work with. She took over after a devastating attack, and nearly died after the most recent one. Perhaps this coma will help lift her indecisiveness?

She seems to have built a leadership position based on Faith in her ninja, and furthering the Will Of Fire. She trusts even Genin to carry out A rank missions or higher. Foolish? Probably.

Maybe its time for Jonin Exams?


Kishimoto is also to blame for creating the system and not sticking to it.

TheBlackChidori
08-02-2010, 09:57 PM
Its true. Can you really think of another Chunin more deserving of the Jonin title then Shikamaru? Asuma died, Kurenai was pregnant... that's two of her best Jonin out of commission, and she didn't replace a single one.

Hopefully Kishimoto does start bringing the ninja ranks back into the equation, because there was a time when "Jonin" was a feared title, and I for one always hoped we would see some type of "Rite of Passage" for some of the Rookies to overcome for it.

Dead Akatsuki and destroyed villages later...

naruto_jock
08-02-2010, 10:02 PM
Its true. Can you really think of another Chunin more deserving of the Jonin title then Shikamaru? Asuma died, Kurenai was pregnant... that's two of her best Jonin out of commission, and she didn't replace a single one.

Hopefully Kishimoto does start bringing the ninja ranks back into the equation, because there was a time when "Jonin" was a feared title, and I for one always hoped we would see some type of "Rite of Passage" for some of the Rookies to overcome for it.

Dead Akatsuki and destroyed villages later...


I was expecting the same thing when I first started reading the manga, but once I got to Shippuden and how Naruto was still a Genin, I knew something was going to happen to totally change or screw up the system of who's-who's with ranks. Because Naruto is the strongest ninja in the village now. And yet he's a Genin. I think Kishimoto-sama might be trying to tell us that it doesn't matter what title you have, what really matters is how you fight for something you love. I know this is way off, but I just wanted to talk about that one issue really quickly. XD

mrsticky005
08-02-2010, 10:09 PM
I was expecting the same thing when I first started reading the manga, but once I got to Shippuden and how Naruto was still a Genin, I knew something was going to happen to totally change or screw up the system of who's-who's with ranks. Because Naruto is the strongest ninja in the village now. And yet he's a Genin. I think Kishimoto-sama might be trying to tell us that it doesn't matter what title you have, what really matters is how you fight for something you love. I know this is way off, but I just wanted to talk about that one issue really quickly. XD

Naruto being a genin is fine as he's a special case.

Same with Sasuke as he's a missing nin

However everybody else staying the same is annoying.

3littlepigs
08-03-2010, 12:05 AM
He just MAY not have known. No one else did. Even if he did know, how could he stop Madara? No one else has.

True he might not have know we have no idea at this point but I meant that if it had been Tsunade then it would give you even more reason to say she's useless and doesn't do anything and that she was expected to know.

He wanted to get rid of subversives. The Uchiha clan was going to rebel. Even Itachi agree to kill them. It was the right decision. Danzo said so himself. That's why he had to keep on living and why he tried to control the council.

I understand the Uchiha were better off dead if it meant the destruction of Konoha that I don't argue. What I'm saying is that he didn't waste any time getting his hands on those sharingans to make himself more powerful so IMO he also wanted them out of the way to get their power for himself. Why did he have to keep on living if they were already dead? Anyway what good was controlling the council if he couldn't even touch Sasuke?


How would that help? Madara can control the Nine Tails. Danzo came up with a means to counteract Madara's control. Arrogant perhaps, with good reason, but not selfish. Danzo completely destroyed his own body in the process. Not to mention, we have plenty of evidence Danzo cares nothing about rewards or approval of others. He operates in the shadows after all for the sake of Konoha.

How would Naruto being able to control the Kyuubi help? Obviously just like how Killer Bee controlling his bijuu helps. Madara can't control the Kyuubi when its inside a host so that's not an excuse. What exactly was his countermeasure? Getting the Kyuubi for himself? That's why I asked you how that would have been any different? If he kept the Kyuubi loose Madara could take control any moment and if he wanted to keep it sealed but out of Naruto then most likely he planned to become a Jinchurkiki just like Madara with the Juubi. I don't really think he cared about destroying his own body as long as it gave him power...And he only operated from the shadows precisely because he had no option. Why do you think he wanted to be Hokage? I'm sure it wasn't because he loved to be hidden all the time.

No I don't think that's what would have happened. It would be more like Madara. Danzo would control the Nine Tails, perhaps through Naruto.

How can he control the Kyuubi through Naruto? and Madara's different...it's like saying Hashirama and his special ability. Not even Yamato can compare and he has some of his DNA.

Ah ,yeah that's why Danzo is such a breath of fresh air. He actually know things. Danzo knew about Madara, Minato thought he did, Itachi did, Kabuto does. Look at that the smart people.

Of course Danzou knew about Madara...why wouldn't he know if they worked together (and you just said it's probable he didn't know about him). Itachi is a special case so I don't find it weird that he knew about Madara, and about the Akatsuki well he was part of it. Minato did know but couldn't confirm it and he did fight him so it's not like he got the idea or suspicion out of the blue which is basically what you're saying should have happened with Tsunade. Kabuto doesn't even count since it was through Oro that he got most of the inside info..not to mention they knew about Akatsuki because Oro was part of it at some point.

She let team find the spy after Sakura dumped it in her lap. That's all they were going to do. If it wasn't for Sai and Yamato's leadership, the team probably wouldn't have even followed Orochimaru back to his hide out. Danzo already had planned out to do that and kill Sasuke.

Danzou only planned it after he got the info from Sakura as well or where else did he get the info from? Yeah he planned to get rid of Sasuke well enough but he got the advantage from Sakura too so that's not any different than Tsunade in that aspect.

There wasn't going to be any agreement. It was quite obvious. No on could win the trust of the others. Only the extraordinary circumstances of Madara caused the alliance. How did Danzo stab anyone in the back?

They would have probably come to some agreement even if it was just to prevent a war. I wasn't mentioning a specific case in the meeting but I was just describing him. Well he did try and control how the meeting went for his own benefit so that's not very honorable.


She made the Raikage look reasonable. Nuff said. The Raikage can't control KB, but at least he doesn't encourage him. Also, he knew enough to hide KB and not put him on the front lines.

Yeah and he looked just as bad if not worse during the first meeting that was my point and even then he ended up being the leader of the alliance. Yeah but Tsunade wasn't alone in thinking that the bijuus should be used against Madara. It was just because at that point it kind of had already been decided but since she didn't know about it before of course her temper's going to show.

At least when they agreed to be a team the other Kage work together. Would Danzo have flown off the handle when a reasonable idea was presented? I think not. Feelings? This war. If everyone dies, Naruto's feelings are meaningless.
Yeah he would have if that "reasonable" idea didn't give him control. Obviously not everyone is going to die and Naruto's feelings are important that's what sets him apart in the world he lives in. People are going to die anyway with or without the two Jinchurikis there but maybe having them there could end up saving more people. Besides because of how emotional Naruto is he's been able to overcome obstacles that technically he shouldn't have been able to and Gaara knows this. What I meant to say that he should know by experience how having Naruto there can end up doing more good than bad but he just doesn't want to take the risk.

C4 Karura
08-03-2010, 10:38 AM
I'm with you on this. Tsunade is rapidly becoming a hateable character (especially as she becomes more flaky).

Wooster
08-04-2010, 06:09 AM
He just MAY not have known. No one else did. Even if he did know, how could he stop Madara? No one else has.

True he might not have know we have no idea at this point but I meant that if it had been Tsunade then it would give you even more reason to say she's useless and doesn't do anything and that she was expected to know.

I doubt I meant right away. Obviously at some point Danzo knew it was Madara. He knew Madara on sight.

He wanted to get rid of subversives. The Uchiha clan was going to rebel. Even Itachi agree to kill them. It was the right decision. Danzo said so himself. That's why he had to keep on living and why he tried to control the council.

I understand the Uchiha were better off dead if it meant the destruction of Konoha that I don't argue. What I'm saying is that he didn't waste any time getting his hands on those sharingans to make himself more powerful so IMO he also wanted them out of the way to get their power for himself. Why did he have to keep on living if they were already dead? Anyway what good was controlling the council if he couldn't even touch Sasuke?

We don't know where he got the sharingan. It has never been stated that Danzo's sharingan were from the massacre. Danzo said from here and there, not exactly what you say if you got then form one place. Madara has alot of sharingan. He very well might have taken must of them. Danzo had to stop Madara, sorry moving on to another point there that's all.


How would that help? Madara can control the Nine Tails. Danzo came up with a means to counteract Madara's control. Arrogant perhaps, with good reason, but not selfish. Danzo completely destroyed his own body in the process. Not to mention, we have plenty of evidence Danzo cares nothing about rewards or approval of others. He operates in the shadows after all for the sake of Konoha.

How would Naruto being able to control the Kyuubi help? Obviously just like how Killer Bee controlling his bijuu helps. Madara can't control the Kyuubi when its inside a host so that's not an excuse. What exactly was his countermeasure? Getting the Kyuubi for himself? That's why I asked you how that would have been any different? If he kept the Kyuubi loose Madara could take control any moment and if he wanted to keep it sealed but out of Naruto then most likely he planned to become a Jinchurkiki just like Madara with the Juubi. I don't really think he cared about destroying his own body as long as it gave him power...And he only operated from the shadows precisely because he had no option. Why do you think he wanted to be Hokage? I'm sure it wasn't because he loved to be hidden all the time.

Madara can release the Nine Tails that's waht matter. However, Danzo cold possibly control the Nine Tails while inside Naruto, Danzo does have the First's DNA. In any case, it was done to block any of Madara's moves. Obvioulsy, Madara can release the Nine Tails from a host; he did so with Kushina.

Yes, Danzo didn't care about destroy his own body because he is selfless. You just have the reason wrong. It was to save Konoha and ninja world. He wanted to be Hokage, but did he try to become Hokage when the Third died? He tries but failed, so he used the best option availble to him to help Konoha. And he does love to be hidden all the time. He said so himself when attack on the way to the Kage summit.

No I don't think that's what would have happened. It would be more like Madara. Danzo would control the Nine Tails, perhaps through Naruto.

How can he control the Kyuubi through Naruto? and Madara's different...it's like saying Hashirama and his special ability. Not even Yamato can compare and he has some of his DNA.

How do we know? Dazno obviously had a plan. He needed Kabuto for some reason.
Ah ,yeah that's why Danzo is such a breath of fresh air. He actually know things. Danzo knew about Madara, Minato thought he did, Itachi did, Kabuto does. Look at that the smart people.

Of course Danzou knew about Madara...why wouldn't he know if they worked together (and you just said it's probable he didn't know about him). Itachi is a special case so I don't find it weird that he knew about Madara, and about the Akatsuki well he was part of it. Minato did know but couldn't confirm it and he did fight him so it's not like he got the idea or suspicion out of the blue which is basically what you're saying should have happened with Tsunade. Kabuto doesn't even count since it was through Oro that he got most of the inside info..not to mention they knew about Akatsuki because Oro was part of it at some point.

The met doesn't mean they worked together if anything it means Danzo just was bidding his time and planning to defeat Madara. Minato didn't know for certain, but he suspected as much. There is no evidence Orochimaru knew about Madara. Kabuto solved this himself.
She let team find the spy after Sakura dumped it in her lap. That's all they were going to do. If it wasn't for Sai and Yamato's leadership, the team probably wouldn't have even followed Orochimaru back to his hide out. Danzo already had planned out to do that and kill Sasuke.

Danzou only planned it after he got the info from Sakura as well or where else did he get the info from? Yeah he planned to get rid of Sasuke well enough but he got the advantage from Sakura too so that's not any different than Tsunade in that aspect.

Yes, but he developed a plan and very good one. Tsunade just said "Duh okay let's do what Sasori told us." Tsunade did mothing further with the info, Danzo did.
There wasn't going to be any agreement. It was quite obvious. No on could win the trust of the others. Only the extraordinary circumstances of Madara caused the alliance. How did Danzo stab anyone in the back?

They would have probably come to some agreement even if it was just to prevent a war. I wasn't mentioning a specific case in the meeting but I was just describing him. Well he did try and control how the meeting went for his own benefit so that's not very honorable.

Sure, Danzo is not honorable. He is pragmatic.

She made the Raikage look reasonable. Nuff said. The Raikage can't control KB, but at least he doesn't encourage him. Also, he knew enough to hide KB and not put him on the front lines.

Yeah and he looked just as bad if not worse during the first meeting that was my point and even then he ended up being the leader of the alliance. Yeah but Tsunade wasn't alone in thinking that the bijuus should be used against Madara. It was just because at that point it kind of had already been decided but since she didn't know about it before of course her temper's going to show.

Yes, but he is a hot head. He makes up for that with strength: himself and his village. Plus, he is not a sentimental as Tsunade. Look at what he said to Naruto. Yes, it was discussed reasonably and rejected. Tsunade wasn't reasonable when she brought it up.

At least when they agreed to be a team the other Kage work together. Would Danzo have flown off the handle when a reasonable idea was presented? I think not. Feelings? This war. If everyone dies, Naruto's feelings are meaningless.

Yeah he would have if that "reasonable" idea didn't give him control. Obviously not everyone is going to die and Naruto's feelings are important that's what sets him apart in the world he lives in. People are going to die anyway with or without the two Jinchurikis there but maybe having them there could end up saving more people. Besides because of how emotional Naruto is he's been able to overcome obstacles that technically he shouldn't have been able to and Gaara knows this. What I meant to say that he should know by experience how having Naruto there can end up doing more good than bad but he just doesn't want to take the risk.

He may have tried to subvert it, but he wouldn't have whine like a child. Possibly even argue it. Tsunade just blubbered and yelled.

If the Jinchuriki are captured then everyone loses. Naruto has also bungled missions because of his emotion. He wouldn't fit in well with an army. Everyone realizes this but Tsunade.