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View Full Version : Sasuke vs. Kisame


Tourune
07-23-2010, 11:20 AM
Location: Were Kakuzu Died

Restrictions: None

Distance: 40 Meters

Acceptions: Equal Speed.

Akatsuki X
07-23-2010, 11:23 AM
I forget,
does Samehada provide gen defense?

Even if it does, I don't see how Kisame avoids Ammy with equal speed.

ByakuganAlex
07-23-2010, 11:25 AM
kisame wins. samehada absorbs anything sasuke throws at him. add in super strength and water globe jutsu and you have your winner.

Nyruss
07-23-2010, 11:28 AM
Can Sasuke breathe underwater? No? Then he dies.

Akatsuki X
07-23-2010, 11:29 AM
Kisame sucks people's chakra,
not jutsu.

He's not Preta.

But hell, if Kisame can evade Tsyuki and somehow dodge Ammy with equal speed, and then use water dome, then sure he wins.

Tourune
07-23-2010, 11:29 AM
I forget,
does Samehada provide gen defense?

Even if it does, I don't see how Kisame avoids Ammy with equal speed.
Not Sure

By Fusing With Samahada He Recovers Himself

Akatsuki X
07-23-2010, 11:32 AM
So I suppose this depends on whether Samehada gives Kisame gen defense or not.

ByakuganAlex
07-23-2010, 11:42 AM
Kisame sucks people's chakra,
not jutsu.

He's not Preta.

But hell, if Kisame can evade Tsyuki and somehow dodge Ammy with equal speed, and then use water dome, then sure he wins.
chapter 470 pg 14 he absorbed 8 lightning blade
don't look into sasuke's eyes. he has been with itachi for years.

Anbu_Black_Op
07-23-2010, 11:59 AM
Kisame wins,i mean he worked with itachi and knows most of the eye jutsu they can do

Bulldog
07-23-2010, 05:19 PM
Susano pops up Sasuke shoots arrows and Amaterasus him Kisame dodge only for so long until getting finally worn out. Though its a close fight.

NagatoGod_of_Pain
07-23-2010, 05:19 PM
Kisame uses water dome and laughs as Sasuke struggles to breathe. Kisame can also fuse with Samehada and easily dodge whatever attack Sasuke might try to do in water dome.

Miles Edgeworth
07-23-2010, 05:23 PM
Kisame uses Water Dome, Sasuke is kinda screwed. It's kinda hard to use genjutsu on a guy who can absolutely blitz you underwater, and Sasuke has no means of actually hurting Kisame. If he tried to use lightning jutsu, he'd kill himself first.

Genjutsu is his only bet, and genjutsu won't save him from Water Dome.

Slack 40
07-23-2010, 05:34 PM
Kisame is one of my favorite characters but I don't see how he can beat sasuke.

I don't see any proof that Kisame's sword can absorb ninjutsu such as a fire ball jutsu or some sort of jutsu use from a distance. I think that Kisame can absorb your chakra which will result in the jutsu being used stopped (for instance KB's attack on pg 14 in chapter 470)

Ammy would probably end it for Kisame especially with equal speed.

If Ammy fails then Sasuke is done for. Water dome will end the fight fast.

Miles Edgeworth
07-23-2010, 05:53 PM
Kisame is one of my favorite characters but I don't see how he can beat sasuke.

I don't see any proof that Kisame's sword can absorb ninjutsu such as a fire ball jutsu or some sort of jutsu use from a distance. I think that Kisame can absorb your chakra which will result in the jutsu being used stopped (for instance KB's attack on pg 14 in chapter 470)

Ammy would probably end it for Kisame especially with equal speed.

If Ammy fails then Sasuke is done for. Water dome will end the fight fast.

Honestly I don't see what's stopping Kisame from absorbing those jutsu, he was able to absorb six tails worth of chakra, a meager fireball jutsu is nothing.

If Kisame were to use Water Dome, then Amaterasu wouldn't help, I mean all the hyperbole Ammy has claims that it can burn through water, but it's not likely that it can burn through an entire orb of water, Amaterasu has never demonstrated that much.

Slack 40
07-23-2010, 06:24 PM
Honestly I don't see what's stopping Kisame from absorbing those jutsu, he was able to absorb six tails worth of chakra, a meager fireball jutsu is nothing.

If Kisame were to use Water Dome, then Amaterasu wouldn't help, I mean all the hyperbole Ammy has claims that it can burn through water, but it's not likely that it can burn through an entire orb of water, Amaterasu has never demonstrated that much.
Its not the chakra amount that im talking about I'm talking about can he absorb chakra once it has become a jutsu that isn't conected to the orginal users body? The 6 tails worth of cloak was part of KB's body but if a fire jutsu were to go near him I don't think he can just stick out the sword and the fire go away because its chakra is absorbed.

Also i agree 100% that ammy is useless underwater. Ammy comes out of sasukes eyes and keeps moving until it hits something. Since the water is touching Sasuke's eyes then the Ammy will hit the water right in front of Sasuke causing sasuke to burn his face till he dies.

Akatsuki X
07-23-2010, 09:52 PM
Honestly I don't see what's stopping Kisame from absorbing those jutsu, he was able to absorb six tails worth of chakra, a meager fireball jutsu is nothing.

If Kisame were to use Water Dome, then Amaterasu wouldn't help, I mean all the hyperbole Ammy has claims that it can burn through water, but it's not likely that it can burn through an entire orb of water, Amaterasu has never demonstrated that much.

But do we know if Kisame can break out of Tsuky?

Nyruss
07-23-2010, 09:58 PM
No but we do know that he knows about Tsukuyomi and that he's not a retard and that he will therefore no get caught in it.

Akatsuki X
07-23-2010, 10:04 PM
Fair enough.

coil
07-24-2010, 05:37 AM
I say Sasuke would win simply because the battle field is where Kakuzu died. Correct me if i am wrong but i don't think there was water where Kakuzu died at? Sasuke can use karin, which isn't chakra it is lightning from the sky and kill Kisame that way.

Sagє Modє Naruto !
07-24-2010, 06:24 AM
Tough.
I'd say Kisame:
Water Dome would have Sasuke struggling for air and there isn't proof of him using any type of lightning style justu underwater(If he could Sasuke would win by using a chidori inside the dome) but if he can't Kisame would fuse with Samehada and swim circles around Sasuke and since he can breathe under water all Kisame has to do is set up the dome and wait

coil
07-24-2010, 06:37 AM
Tough.
I'd say Kisame:
Water Dome would have Sasuke struggling for air and there isn't proof of him using any type of lightning style justu underwater(If he could Sasuke would win by using a chidori inside the dome) but if he can't Kisame would fuse with Samehada and swim circles around Sasuke and since he can breathe under water all Kisame has to do is set up the dome and wait
I don't think there was water in the area? Either way he can't use water dome unless he can actually get Sasuke in the water.

ByakuganAlex
07-24-2010, 06:48 AM
kisame can produce huge amount of water. kisame never gets tired in battle due to samehada. samehada absorbed the lightning from kb sword. so he can absorb ninjutsu. he can suck 6 tails at a time.

J-Sun Tasogare
07-24-2010, 07:01 AM
He absorbed Chakra not Lightning.

Sagє Modє Naruto !
07-24-2010, 08:27 AM
true imean w/o the water kisame's justu is limited so if there isnt water sasuke has a chance/

Nyruss
07-24-2010, 08:48 AM
Kisame can make his own water.

ByakuganAlex
07-24-2010, 09:26 AM
He absorbed Chakra not Lightning.

he absorbed the lightning chakra!!!! from killerbee's sword. reread if you must.

J-Sun Tasogare
07-24-2010, 09:29 AM
Chakra is chakra it was lightning natured but it's still made of chakra. If a Kirin hits him he's screwed.

Miles Edgeworth
07-24-2010, 10:33 AM
Chakra is chakra it was lightning natured but it's still made of chakra. If a Kirin hits him he's screwed.


No doubt if Kirin hit Kisame he'd probably die, but what are the chances of Kirin actually hitting though?

Sasuke has to have a lot of prep time, and if Kisame uses Water Dome at the start, there's absolutely no way Sasuke's using some fire jutsu to heat up the atmosphere.

IIRC, Sasuke used Amaterasu as well as his own fire jutsu to prepare the weather for Kirin, I highly doubt Kisame is gonna just give Sasuke this prep.

Akatsuki X
07-24-2010, 10:47 AM
I don't think there was water in the area? Either way he can't use water dome unless he can actually get Sasuke in the water.

Cause it's not like Kisame can make his own water or anything.

Oh wait,

he can?

Looks like your wrong.

4th hokage97
07-24-2010, 09:03 PM
Sasuke because of the area and because he sasuke has susanoo and i dont think the place where hidan died there is water

Miles Edgeworth
07-24-2010, 09:05 PM
Sasuke because of the area and because he sasuke has susanoo and i dont think the place where hidan died there is water

Susanoo gets absorbed by Samehada, or Kisame can use Water Dome so Sasuke drowns.

Kisame can make his own water, he doesn't need a water source like Zabuza.

SimpleGenin
07-25-2010, 06:22 AM
i think sasuke can definantly win this because of his lightning attribute along with MS. i cant see how Kisame can break out of the tsu. although kisame's water attribute is beyond amazing from what i saw.

Teddie
07-25-2010, 07:41 AM
Nope, SG.
Wrong x 10.
Water Dome = Win.
He wont get caught in Tsu, period, because of knowledge. He doesnt need his eyes open to drown the Sauce.

SimpleGenin
07-25-2010, 07:50 AM
well maybe but didnt kisame himself admitted to be below itachi. alot of people will support that sasuke has surpassed itachi. so logically wouldnt it be safe to say that sasuke can beat kisame. also i would imagine electiricity having the same affect on kisame as suigetsu. from what i remembered suigetsu was paralyzed from it. cant sasuke just run a strong current in the water dome and hurt kisame?

Teddie
07-25-2010, 07:56 AM
well maybe but didnt kisame himself admitted to be below itachi. alot of people will support that sasuke has surpassed itachi. so logically wouldnt it be safe to say that sasuke can beat kisame. also i would imagine electiricity having the same affect on kisame as suigetsu. from what i remembered suigetsu was paralyzed from it. cant sasuke just run a strong current in the water dome and hurt kisame?

A) Feats say otherwise, he admitted to this prior to having shown water dome + Samehada Transformation. In fact, it would be incredibly dangerous to say Sauce-K would win, because you would then be accused of senseless wank.

B)No. Sauce-K runs a strong current inthe water dome, he dies. Period. Exclamation point.

SimpleGenin
07-25-2010, 08:08 AM
im new to this so i wonder on some things
one of them is kisame admitting his weaker than itachi. i would think that when he said this, kisame already developed the waterdome technique and he already was able to fuze with samahada, but despite that, he still admitted he was weaker.
and mybe sasuke would die from electricity but he did shock is body numb to save him from diedara's k4, so for me its safe to say that electicuting everything in the waterdome isnt all that impossible.. the best thing kisame can do is probibly tie if he used the water dome

Teddie
07-25-2010, 08:15 AM
im new to this so i wonder on some things
one of them is kisame admitting his weaker than itachi. i would think that when he said this, kisame already developed the waterdome technique and he already was able to fuze with samahada, but despite that, he still admitted he was weaker.
and mybe sasuke would die from electricity but he did shock is body numb to save him from diedara's k4, so for me its safe to say that electicuting everything in the waterdome isnt all that impossible.. the best thing kisame can do is probibly tie if he used the water dome

Nope.
Feats > Powerscaling or whatever.
Waterdome = Win.
Sauce-K either suffocates underwater, or Kisame goes Samehada transformation, and before Sauce-K can slow-mo make handsigns underwater, Kisame speedblitz crunchbites, or noms all of Sauce-K's chakra.
In no way shape or form does Kisame lose.

SimpleGenin
07-25-2010, 08:29 AM
Nope.
Feats > Powerscaling or whatever.
Waterdome = Win.
Sauce-K either suffocates underwater, or Kisame goes Samehada transformation, and before Sauce-K can slow-mo make handsigns underwater, Kisame speedblitz crunchbites, or noms all of Sauce-K's chakra.
In no way shape or form does Kisame lose.
point taken. i still think sasuke has a chance with his lightning based jutsu though because even though he isnt as fast as kisame infuzed with samahada sasuke is still one of the fastest character in narutoverse and saying that kisame can kill him before he can make any hand sign is also just a guess. besides we dont know how susano would react to the water or to kisame's obsorbing ability. at the least sasuke can protect himself inside a susano that surrounded by amaterasu to 1) formulate a plan 0r second, electricute the water to the max killing everything in it

Teddie
07-25-2010, 08:44 AM
point taken. i still think sasuke has a chance with his lightning based jutsu though because even though he isnt as fast as kisame infuzed with samahada sasuke is still one of the fastest character in narutoverse and saying that kisame can kill him before he can make any hand sign is also just a guess. besides we dont know how susano would react to the water or to kisame's obsorbing ability. at the least sasuke can protect himself inside a susano that surrounded by amaterasu to 1) formulate a plan 0r second, electricute the water to the max killing everything in it

Lightning chakra underwater would actually probably be absorbed by Samehada. So, Kisame underwater in Samehada fusion is virtually invincible. He absorbed an entire 7 tails worth of Bijuu chakra.

SimpleGenin
07-25-2010, 08:52 AM
also can samahada absorb susano? from what i understand, using susano is not just another jutsu but also conjuring up an entity, how does samahada react to a amaturasu covered susano.. and can samahada absorb the said to be never ending flame of amaturasu?

Teddie
07-25-2010, 09:19 AM
also can samahada absorb susano? from what i understand, using susano is not just another jutsu but also conjuring up an entity, how does samahada react to a amaturasu covered susano.. and can samahada absorb the said to be never ending flame of amaturasu?

Yes. Amaterasu is categorized as a Ninjutsu, which, by the way, Sauce-K by the laws of science cant use underwater. We also cant assume that Susanoo blocks the water from pouring in. And Susanoo is a chakra shield with a genjutsu appearance. Regardless, its made of chakra, and Samehada nom noms chakra.

Also, Sauce-K has to go through more than one Susanoo activation to reach the level where it cases his full body. It'll take too long to complete, and if he does Susanoo, then Sauce-K will create a prison with Water Inside of it.

SimpleGenin
07-25-2010, 09:38 AM
Yes. Amaterasu is categorized as a Ninjutsu, which, by the way, Sauce-K by the laws of science cant use underwater. We also cant assume that Susanoo blocks the water from pouring in. And Susanoo is a chakra shield with a genjutsu appearance. Regardless, its made of chakra, and Samehada nom noms chakra.

Also, Sauce-K has to go through more than one Susanoo activation to reach the level where it cases his full body. It'll take too long to complete, and if he does Susanoo, then Sauce-K will create a prison with Water Inside of it.
well from the anime, the fire raged even under water so i dont see why he cant do the same underwater
saying that susanoo will take too long is a guess at best. it should be safe to say the full power of susanoo can be activated by choice, escpecially if sasuke does get itachis eyes.

Miles Edgeworth
07-25-2010, 09:41 AM
well from the anime, the fire raged even under water so i dont see why he cant do the same underwater
saying that susanoo will take too long is a guess at best. it should be safe to say the full power of susanoo can be activated by choice, escpecially if sasuke does get itachis eyes.

The anime is non canon.

Kisame can easily just use Water Dome, it doesn't matter if Susanoo is up, Sasuke will drown. Susanoo is not airtight, if it was then Sasuke would have died already.

Current Sasuke can likely take this but he still lacks any feats.

SimpleGenin
07-25-2010, 09:48 AM
The anime is non canon.

Kisame can easily just use Water Dome, it doesn't matter if Susanoo is up, Sasuke will drown. Susanoo is not airtight, if it was then Sasuke would have died already.

Current Sasuke can likely take this but he still lacks any feats.
sorry to make this more complicated but something doesnt seem right to me.. because if his susanoo wasnt air sealed, wouldnt sasuke would have been melted by mizukage's acid as it did to the susanoo 1 feet or so away from him?

Miles Edgeworth
07-25-2010, 09:49 AM
sorry to make this more complicated but something doesnt seem right to me.. because if his susanoo wasnt air sealed, wouldnt sasuke would have been melted by mizukage's acid as it did to the susanoo 1 feet or so away from him?

Susanoo doesn't have to be air tight to block that, if it was Sasuke would casually have suffocated and died while getting curbstomped by the Raikage.

Also, Mizukage's jutsu have much less range than Kisame's huge water dome.

SimpleGenin
07-25-2010, 10:00 AM
Susanoo doesn't have to be air tight to block that, if it was Sasuke would casually have suffocated and died while getting curbstomped by the Raikage.

Also, Mizukage's jutsu have much less range than Kisame's huge water dome.
i argue it can be air tight.. because from what i recall the mizukage and sasuke were trapped in a room, and than the mizukage changed the acidity of the air in that air tight room. but than a whole was made in that room and the mizukage worried that the acidity might harmed the other.. which leads me to believe that whole room was filled with her acidity jutsu

Miles Edgeworth
07-25-2010, 10:15 AM
i argue it can be air tight.. because from what i recall the mizukage and sasuke were trapped in a room, and than the mizukage changed the acidity of the air in that air tight room. but than a whole was made in that room and the mizukage worried that the acidity might harmed the other.. which leads me to believe that whole room was filled with her acidity jutsu

How does that prove it is airtight? Honestly the only reason Sasuke survived was because of PNJ, Zetsu came out of nowhere to give Sasuke some extra chakra and Sasuke probably would have died without that intervention.

She worried it would harm the others because it's a corrosive cloud of mist, it would harm the others. The whole room wasn't filled with it, but quite a lot was where they were.

SimpleGenin
07-25-2010, 10:23 AM
well not to argue but seeing how susanoo melted and not sasuke in that air tight room is enough for me to believe it can be air tight.

Kuromaki
07-25-2010, 10:25 AM
well not to argue but seeing how susanoo melted and not sasuke in that air tight room is enough for me to believe it can be air tight.
Sasuke was slowly getting melted by the acid mist but Susano'o probably blocked some of it. Either way he was screwed until Zetsu saved him.

If it was air tight he'd have trouble breathing.

SimpleGenin
07-25-2010, 10:38 AM
yeah i agree he would have died if it wasnt for zetsu. i just looked back at manga 466 and it looks like the acid only affected sasuke when susanoo was almost completely melted. and i dont know how accurate it is to tell by the looks but it does look like susanoo encloses the caster inside of it as see in naruto 466 page 07.. i could be wrong though.. and breathing, i agree it can pose a problem but i think the air inside susanoo is enough to keep sasuke alive for few minutes atleast

Teddie
07-25-2010, 10:52 AM
Okay. A few minutes. Then his air runs out underwater, while Kisame swims circles.

SimpleGenin
07-25-2010, 11:01 AM
well i see ur point.. unless sasuke can find someway of igniting amatarasu and changing the climate like he did in itachi vs sasuke fight and than using kirin in that massive dome i dont see him winning in this situation..

Teddie
07-25-2010, 11:04 AM
So in otherwords, he cannot win.
Because Kisame wont let him massively change the climate.

SimpleGenin
07-25-2010, 11:15 AM
So in otherwords, he cannot win.
Because Kisame wont let him massively change the climate.
true. i was just thinking if its true that sasuke can be protected in an air tight susanoo for a given amount of time, can he just use amatarsu in the sky? as i recall amatarasu can be an igniting technique. a technique that simply ignite vs a technique that travels. cant he use that to ignite blackflames in the sky to change the climate.. but iono this was never been done

Kuromaki
07-25-2010, 11:29 AM
true. i was just thinking if its true that sasuke can be protected in an air tight susanoo for a given amount of time, can he just use amatarsu in the sky? as i recall amatarasu can be an igniting technique. a technique that simply ignite vs a technique that travels. cant he use that to ignite blackflames in the sky to change the climate.. but iono this was never been done
Not with Water Dome. Besides, Ammy travels, this is proven when Hachibi was able to block it with a tentacle and Raikage dodged it.

When in Water Dome, Sasuke won't get the chance to use Kirin. Kisame can swim around and suck the chakra out of him or Susano'o.

SimpleGenin
07-25-2010, 12:21 PM
Not with Water Dome. Besides, Ammy travels, this is proven when Hachibi was able to block it with a tentacle and Raikage dodged it.

When in Water Dome, Sasuke won't get the chance to use Kirin. Kisame can swim around and suck the chakra out of him or Susano'o.

yeah omg thats kinda weird.. i never noticed how when sasuke fought raikage it had to travel or else raikage wouldnt have to dodge it but if you watch episode 143, it just appears if you take a look at 17:35. Hachibi didnt block it but got fully hit with it

Kuromaki
07-25-2010, 12:26 PM
yeah omg thats kinda weird.. i never noticed how when sasuke fought raikage it had to travel or else raikage wouldnt have to dodge it but if you watch episode 143, it just appears if you take a look at 17:35. Hachibi didnt block it but got fully hit with it
I reread the chapter and Hachibi did get hit with it, my bad :p. Just so you know, it's better to use a manga source here cause it's more canon than the anime.

The fact that the Raikage managed to react to it means that it doesn't ignite instantly, it has to travel to the target. Also, read Chapter 390 page 4, Sasuke is shown running away from a traveling Ammy.

SimpleGenin
07-25-2010, 12:28 PM
I reread the chapter and Hachibi did get hit with it, my bad :p. Just so you know, it's better to use a manga source here cause it's more canon than the anime.

The fact that the Raikage managed to react to it means that it doesn't ignite instantly, it has to travel to the target. Also, read Chapter 390 page 4, Sasuke is shown running away from a traveling Ammy.

i guess that is true.. i like using the manga as a source too :)

SimpleGenin
07-26-2010, 04:24 AM
i just looked it up, amaterasu IS an ignition technique. Aslong as the caster keeps his eyes focused in his target it doesnt miss.. With this i really think sasuke can actually stand a chance

Kuromaki
07-26-2010, 09:22 AM
i just looked it up, amaterasu IS an ignition technique. Aslong as the caster keeps his eyes focused in his target it doesnt miss.. With this i really think sasuke can actually stand a chance
If it does ignite instantly, why were CS2 Sasuke and Raikage able to dodge it? And who's to say that Kisamehada can't just absorb it, since the flames are made of chakra?

SimpleGenin
07-26-2010, 02:13 PM
If it does ignite instantly, why were CS2 Sasuke and Raikage able to dodge it? And who's to say that Kisamehada can't just absorb it, since the flames are made of chakra?
i dont know honestly.. this information is from the data book and i think its wrong to say other wise.. but if you think about it IS possible to dodge it if you foretell what your enemies going to do.. and with Itachi, we all know he didnt want sasuke dead, and that his vision was blurred.. if you look back in the anime, when both were fighting using fireball jutsu and itachi was lossing, he activated amaterasu but STOPPED it before it could hit sasuke

FlyingThunderGod
07-26-2010, 03:11 PM
you guys always talking about Genjutsu... it can be countered. And water dome means its over for Sasuke

Kuromaki
07-26-2010, 04:07 PM
i dont know honestly.. this information is from the data book and i think its wrong to say other wise.. but if you think about it IS possible to dodge it if you foretell what your enemies going to do.. and with Itachi, we all know he didnt want sasuke dead, and that his vision was blurred.. if you look back in the anime, when both were fighting using fireball jutsu and itachi was lossing, he activated amaterasu but STOPPED it before it could hit sasuke
When it comes to stats and abilities, the DB is full of inconsistencies, like Haku being light speed and Amaterasu being as hot as the sun. So I wouldn't use it if I were you.

Itachi was still tracking Sasuke with his eyes and eventually it got him, but regardless, absorbing Ammy is Kisame's best chance to avoid it.

Akatsuki X
07-26-2010, 05:23 PM
I saw we petition to eradicate the Databooks from existence.

DSPR7
07-26-2010, 05:28 PM
I saw we petition to eradicate the Databooks from existence.

A men, brother.

How is this debate still going on, anyway?

Akatsuki X
07-26-2010, 05:51 PM
I have no idea.
Someone lock this.

SimpleGenin
07-26-2010, 05:54 PM
I saw we petition to eradicate the Databooks from existence.
yeah i know that, but im just saying doing so is wrong. if we ignore the data book COMPLETELY, anything is up for grabs.. what i mean by that is it leaves everyone here only to argue based on feats

to me its kinda like saying shino could beat hanzo just because we havent seen any feats from hanzo. you also have to take in mind that he took on the sannin on their prime ( im assuming )

with sasuke vs kisame, im just saying sasuke has a high chance of winning do to his lightning ninjutsu along with his MS. it even says in this thread that they are evenly fast. in my opinion it takes one shot of amaterasu to kill kisame..

Akatsuki X
07-26-2010, 06:03 PM
yeah i know that, but im just saying doing so is wrong. if we ignore the data book COMPLETELY, anything is up for grabs.. what i mean by that is it leaves everyone here only to argue based on feats

to me its kinda like saying shino could beat hanzo just because we havent seen any feats from hanzo. you also have to take in mind that he took on the sannin on their prime ( im assuming )

with sasuke vs kisame, im just saying sasuke has a high chance of winning do to his lightning ninjutsu along with his MS. it even says in this thread that they are evenly fast. in my opinion it takes one shot of amaterasu to kill kisame..

Cause heaven forbid that we only argue based on feats.

The databooks provide us with no meaningful knowledge anyway.

Hanzo shows no feats, therefore Hanzo should not be used in debates,
it's as simple as that.

SimpleGenin
07-26-2010, 06:44 PM
Cause heaven forbid that we only argue based on feats.

The databooks provide us with no meaningful knowledge anyway.

Hanzo shows no feats, therefore Hanzo should not be used in debates,
it's as simple as that.
i knwo where your coming from but something is just bothering me.. see thats what bothers me about this.
Hanzo should not be used in a debate? thats taking away the fact that he was one of the strongest ninja in narutoverse.. that itself says alot.. ignoring the data book takes away soo much from vs possibilities
like Hanzo vs 1st Hokage 3rd Kazekage vs 4th Hokage and other possible fight. someone's reputation should mean SOMETHING, not a whole lot mybe but SOMETHING. i myself dont wanna restrict myself to those limitation.. for me i argue on what makes sense along with feats along with some knowledge on the data book..

with this im gonna say again that sasuke has a high chance of winning because of MS and lightning base attacks.

Akatsuki X
07-26-2010, 07:01 PM
Then Rikodou would also have to be allowed in debates.
And he only has one feat which is more of hype then a feat.

So going by feats is the only logical way.

SimpleGenin
07-26-2010, 07:08 PM
Then Rikodou would also have to be allowed in debates.
And he only has one feat which is more of hype then a feat.

So going by feats is the only logical way.

yes yes i understand all that.. but im just saying, knowing that he sealed the juubi, that should mean something.. im not asking that theres should not be restriction on hype but im just asking for balance between the two.. if hype of a character is restricted in the debate, all were doing is really just arguing away based on our imagination on what if and taking it further away from the reality of narutoverse.. fact is hanzo was one of the strongest ninja of his time, fact is he exist in th naruto world and i really dont wanna leave out characters like him

tanduhman
07-26-2010, 08:39 PM
fact is instead of going off of featless facts id rather just debate real feats honestly.. the BG is for debates that make sense.. not hyped bull

Kuromaki
07-26-2010, 08:39 PM
It's hard to debate when we barely have an idea of what the character can do. Also, with hype we can make stuff up. Feats prove they can actually do it.
with this im gonna say again that sasuke has a high chance of winning because of MS and lightning base attacks.
If Kisame can't escape genjutsu through Samehada chakra flow or absorb Ammy with Samehada, then he probably loses.

However, lightning based attacks won't really work since Samehada was able to stop and absorb Raiton swords from Killer Bee, and if Sasuke used a Raiton in the water he'd get fried along with Kisame.

tanduhman
07-26-2010, 08:52 PM
Ill agree with kuromaki about the gengutsu part.. if kisame cant escape it with samehada than he could probably escape by releasing his own chakra.. but the time needed to do that is enough time for sasuke to ammy him.

Although about the ammy part.. kisame could simply dodge ammy like sasuke did in his fight with itachi.. plz kuromaki dont forget that kisame can easily go underground in order to dodge it. Or spit out a wave of water in front of him to block the ammy.

if their bloodlusted than theres nothing stopping kisame from using water dome right off the bat.. thr real question IMO is if sasuke can get kisame in a gengutsu before water dome is up.

Miles Edgeworth
07-26-2010, 08:56 PM
Naruto is one of those series where they really need to show feats.

DBZ is one of those things where not everybody shows planet busting but it's HEAVILY implied that anybody who is a competent fighter past the Frieza Saga can planet bust.

SimpleGenin
07-26-2010, 08:59 PM
It's hard to debate when we barely have an idea of what the character can do. Also, with hype we can make stuff up. Feats prove they can actually do it.

If Kisame can't escape genjutsu through Samehada chakra flow or absorb Ammy with Samehada, then he probably loses.

However, lightning based attacks won't really work since Samehada was able to stop and absorb Raiton swords from Killer Bee, and if Sasuke used a Raiton in the water he'd get fried along with Kisame.

there are ways around lies like that, but ignoring the other great ninjas that came before is not the way. remember that great ninjas are remembered because of the feats theyve done , thats how they become great in the first place like Hanzo. weither we see what theyre capable of in the manga or not, the fact is they became known because of there feats.

i really doubt kisame could survive a full on kirin on land let alone in a water dome. imagine sasuke in the water dome inside susanoo covered with flames while sasuke heats up the atmosphere with amaterasu. from what i could tell sasuke is better suited in surviving a blast of lightning.

from what i read from the data book, samehada IS a living creature aswell as a weapon but it doesnt really say anything much about how the creature is.. we know it loves to eat chakra but we dont know how intelligent it may be.. is it intelligent enough to break a genjutsu? that was never shown nor is it in the data book..

im just saying again that sasuke has a good chance of winning this fight.

tanduhman
07-26-2010, 09:03 PM
@simple genin- can sasuke heal himself? no.... can kisame? that awnswer is a big YES

samehada has shown the ability to convert the chakra it has in order to heal kisame. it has shown the ability to move on its own, and talk in its own weird language. it has shown to fuse with kisame as well. sounds inteligent to me. intelligent enough to give kisame chakra

Kuromaki
07-26-2010, 09:09 PM
Although about the ammy part.. kisame could simply dodge ammy like sasuke did in his fight with itachi.. plz kuromaki dont forget that kisame can easily go underground in order to dodge it. Or spit out a wave of water in front of him to block the ammy.

if their bloodlusted than theres nothing stopping kisame from using water dome right off the bat.. thr real question IMO is if sasuke can get kisame in a gengutsu before water dome is up.
I forgot about the underground thing. Yeah, he can use that too. Otherwise, I agree.
there are ways around lies like that, but ignoring the other great ninjas that came before is not the way. remember that great ninjas are remembered because of the feats theyve done , thats how they become great in the first place like Hanzo. weither we see what theyre capable of in the manga or not, the fact is they became known because of there feats.

i really doubt kisame could survive a full on kirin on land let alone in a water dome. imagine sasuke in the water dome inside susanoo covered with flames while sasuke heats up the atmosphere with amaterasu. from what i could tell sasuke is better suited in surviving a blast of lightning.

from what i read from the data book, samehada IS a living creature aswell as a weapon but it doesnt really say anything much about how the creature is.. we know it loves to eat chakra but we dont know how intelligent it may be.. is it intelligent enough to break a genjutsu? that was never shown nor is it in the data book..

im just saying again that sasuke has a good chance of winning this fight.
Feats? What feats? You can't debate when there are no battle feats backing up the claims of what they can supposedly do.

Kisame won't give Sasuke the prep time to use Kirin, and good luck heating up the atmosphere while in a giant dome of water near a fishman with a chakra eating sword. Sasuke can't survive Kirin either if he's anywhere near Kisame. His Susano'o has never shown tanking abilities on Kirin's level.

Didn't we already go over the databook issue? Also read what Tanduhman said regarding Samehada.

SimpleGenin
07-26-2010, 09:12 PM
@simple genin- can sasuke heal himself? no.... can kisame? that awnswer is a big YES

samehada has shown the ability to convert the chakra it has in order to heal kisame. it has shown the ability to move on its own, and talk in its own weird language. it has shown to fuse with kisame as well. sounds inteligent to me. intelligent enough to give kisame chakra
kirin is a technique that kills on impact from what we've seen it does, and kisame being hit with amaterasu would mean a never ending flames weither kisame heals or not. samehada heals but it cant ressurect dead saying it moves on its own, talk in a weird manner, so its intelligent is innacurate. saying that it actually picked bee over kisame is saying more about samehada but saying its intellgent enough to break genjutsu is only speculation

SimpleGenin
07-26-2010, 09:21 PM
I forgot about the underground thing. Yeah, he can use that too. Otherwise, I agree.

Feats? What feats? You can't debate when there are no battle feats backing up the claims of what they can supposedly do.

Kisame won't give Sasuke the prep time to use Kirin, and good luck heating up the atmosphere while in a giant dome of water near a fishman with a chakra eating sword. Sasuke can't survive Kirin either if he's anywhere near Kisame. His Susano'o has never shown tanking abilities on Kirin's level.

Didn't we already go over the databook issue? Also read what Tanduhman said regarding Samehada.

and as ive said before ignoring the databook COMPLETELY is wrong. if we stray away from the data actually given to us by the writer him self, all were doing is arguing about make pretend characters that resembles naruto characters.. i just don wanna leave anything out is all and just balance data book + feats.

susano'o is percieved as a force field + entity, it protects the caster from harm, Itachi's Susanoo prevented him from being harmed and i have no doubt it can protect sasuke aswell

Kuromaki
07-26-2010, 09:23 PM
and as ive said before ignoring the databook COMPLETELY is wrong. if we stray away from the data actually given to us by the writer him self, all were doing is arguing about make pretend characters that resembles naruto characters.. i just don wanna leave anything out is all and just balance data book + feats.

susano'o is percieved as a force field + entity, it protects the caster from harm, Itachi's Susanoo prevented him from being harmed and i have no doubt it can protect sasuke aswell
wut? It's already been proven that the DB is an unreliable source for character feats, because of its many inconsistencies with the manga. Read this post (http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3659558&postcount=47) by Vivi.

One of Danzo's Futons was able to rip through Sasuke's Susano'o. Why Kirin can't do the same thing and much more, I don't know.

tanduhman
07-26-2010, 09:29 PM
kirin is a technique that kills on impact from what we've seen it does, and kisame being hit with amaterasu would mean a never ending flames weither kisame heals or not. samehada heals but it cant ressurect dead saying it moves on its own, talk in a weird manner, so its intelligent is innacurate. saying that it actually picked bee over kisame is saying more about samehada but saying its intellgent enough to break genjutsu is only speculation

speculation or not it has shown the ability to instantly heal fatal wounds.. it has basically shown the ability to heal better than sakura, and it has shown the ability to transfer chakra into a being as it did with KB on its own. how do you break someone out of a gengutsu? you funnel them your own chakra. samehada funneled its own chakra into KB which IMO proves that statement.

Again kisame can dodge ammy with simple water jutsu or easily go underground and dodge it. ammy shoots out it doesnt just appear which shows how if they are in a water dome than it wont even have the chance of hitting kisame. and saying that sasuke can change the environmentt while in a water dome is blashphemy since again.. ammy travels.. water is in front of sasukes eyes therefor the black flames will only burn sasukes eyes.

SimpleGenin
07-26-2010, 09:31 PM
wut? It's already been proven that the DB is an unreliable source for character feats, because of its many inconsistencies with the manga. Read this post (http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3659558&postcount=47) by Vivi.

One of Danzo's Futons was able to rip through Sasuke's Susano'o. Why Kirin can't do the same thing and much more, I don't know.

it really doesnt take much to prove that true which is why i said balance between feats and data book (hype) is what is needed in a battle in the very beginning. Same thing could be said about Orochimaru and Tsunade, they are percieved to be simalar levels but we havent really seen her on a full on fight in the Shippuden series. so saying that she is as good as orochimaro is wrong.

Kuromaki
07-26-2010, 09:35 PM
so saying that she is as good as orochimaro is wrong.
Yes, it's very wrong. Because Tsunade has vastly inferior feats to Orochimaru's. Honestly I don't get what you're trying to say with the whole hype balancing thing, and besides, hype isn't used here often.

You also didn't counter the rest of my previous two posts. So it means that Sasuke won't get the chance to use Kirin, which can kill him too, yes?

SimpleGenin
07-26-2010, 09:42 PM
speculation or not it has shown the ability to instantly heal fatal wounds.. it has basically shown the ability to heal better than sakura, and it has shown the ability to transfer chakra into a being as it did with KB on its own. how do you break someone out of a gengutsu? you funnel them your own chakra. samehada funneled its own chakra into KB which IMO proves that statement.

Again kisame can dodge ammy with simple water jutsu or easily go underground and dodge it. ammy shoots out it doesnt just appear which shows how if they are in a water dome than it wont even have the chance of hitting kisame. and saying that sasuke can change the environmentt while in a water dome is blashphemy since again.. ammy travels.. water is in front of sasukes eyes therefor the black flames will only burn sasukes eyes.

and again we covered the healing thing.. yes it heals but it cannot revive the dead. imagine kisame being caught in the beginning of the battle in tsu while his still full power, is samehada capable of telling weither kisame needs help or not. and from what i saw from the manga, amaterasu is an igniting justsu, weather theres water their or not is really irrelevent because of the time hachibee was burning under water. yes sasuke managed to dodge amatersu so did the raikage, but does it mean it always travels in specific direction? from what i saw its 50%. there were moments where amaterasu just appeared.. example being with the fight with hachibee.. im pretty shure if regular fire can change the climate im shure amatersu can do it aswell.. if sasuke can do that while insde the susano covered in flames, he can unleash kirin. especially if he thinks ending it in a draw is the only way possible.. if susanoo will hold no one really knows.. i have my bet on him..

SimpleGenin
07-26-2010, 09:49 PM
Yes, it's very wrong. Because Tsunade has vastly inferior feats to Orochimaru's. Honestly I don't get what you're trying to say with the whole hype balancing thing, and besides, hype isn't used here often.

You also didn't counter the rest of my previous two posts. So it means that Sasuke won't get the chance to use Kirin, which can kill him too, yes?
im trying to say look at EVERYTHING u can vs just basing every fight with feats.. because just basing things with feats is flawed in many ways..
for example ino vs hanzo, we havent seen much feats from hanzo automatically making ino the winner.. another person can also say hanzo has no defense against the mind transer jutsu so ino wins, is this accurate? highly unlikely

Kuromaki
07-26-2010, 09:56 PM
im trying to say look at EVERYTHING u can vs just basing every fight with feats.. because just basing things with feats is flawed in many ways..
for example ino vs hanzo, we havent seen much feats from hanzo automatically making ino the winner.. another person can also say hanzo has no defense against the mind transer jutsu so ino wins, is this accurate? highly unlikely
This is why nearly featless characters shouldn't be used in debates.

On the contrary, Hanzo is capable of defeating Ino even with the few feats he has shown. He was able to burn Nagato's legs, and shunshin away from Gedo Mazo's soul sucking dragons. He won't just stand there and be a target for Shintenshin, even with no knowledge.

Edit: Also adding on to what Edgeworth said... xD

Miles Edgeworth
07-26-2010, 09:56 PM
im trying to say look at EVERYTHING u can vs just basing every fight with feats.. because just basing things with feats is flawed in many ways..
for example ino vs hanzo, we havent seen much feats from hanzo automatically making ino the winner.. another person can also say hanzo has no defense against the mind transer jutsu so ino wins, is this accurate? highly unlikely

The thing about that situation is that powerscaling and common sense prove Hanzo to be superior to Ino in every way. Soloing the Sannin is better than anything from Ino, so while he is technically "featless" we know he is at least a Kage level ninja, but to an unknown extent.

There's a difference between reasonable powerscaling and desperate wank attempts.

SimpleGenin
07-26-2010, 10:11 PM
The thing about that situation is that powerscaling and common sense prove Hanzo to be superior to Ino in every way. Soloing the Sannin is better than anything from Ino, so while he is technically "featless" we know he is at least a Kage level ninja, but to an unknown extent.

There's a difference between reasonable powerscaling and desperate wank attempts.
your the first to actually get partly what im saying and im happy about that. thank u. thats what i mean in a sense.. its a start.. title are also an important factor feats or no feats.. from what i see people here are divided, those who believes in feats only and those who believes feat aswell as other factor.. its complicated really and it can go in any direction in soooooooo many ways that i can think of..
an example is kisame admitted to be below itachi, sasuke beats itachi, and than impproved much more to the extent where danzo and others thinks his stronger than itachi. so logically sasuke beats kisame ( im not saying this is the right way to decide things but its something to consider on the decision in a versus match) this is kina what i mean by looking at everything and deciding from their. in this thread , it stated that they are equal speed which i highly doubt (water kisame faster land sasuke faster), keeping that in mind its not all that impossible to use tricks from MS before anything else, besides it only takes one look to trap a person with tsu and it takes a stare to get a ninja with amatersu.. another way to think about things is what if kisame starts with a water dome while sasuke starts with ammy, kisame would already be burning. theirs many ways this battle can go

J-Sun Tasogare
07-26-2010, 10:15 PM
LOL at Blood Lusted Sasuke using Genjutsu. No where EVER in the manga did Sasuke use Tsuki in an angered state, he will start off with a Susanoo, most likely and Kisame will start off with Water Dome.

Sasuke can't breath underwater but he will try to shoot Susanoo Arrows at Kisame, but they will be slowed down by the water as well as Kisame being in Kisameheada, he will easily be able to absorb/dodge it.

After this he will use Ammy his second go to move, he fires it at Kisame BUT WAIT wasn't Sasuke underwater?!?!?! Yes so what is going to stop Ammy from hitting Kisame? The water infront of Sasuke's face, that will spread and catch Sasuke on fire. If that doesn't work he still runs out of breath before he thinks about using Tsuki.

SimpleGenin
07-26-2010, 10:23 PM
LOL at Blood Lusted Sasuke using Genjutsu. No where EVER in the manga did Sasuke use Tsuki in an angered state, he will start off with a Susanoo, most likely and Kisame will start off with Water Dome.

Sasuke can't breath underwater but he will try to shoot Susanoo Arrows at Kisame, but they will be slowed down by the water as well as Kisame being in Kisameheada, he will easily be able to absorb/dodge it.

After this he will use Ammy his second go to move, he fires it at Kisame BUT WAIT wasn't Sasuke underwater?!?!?! Yes so what is going to stop Ammy from hitting Kisame? The water infront of Sasuke's face, that will spread and catch Sasuke on fire. If that doesn't work he still runs out of breath before he thinks about using Tsuki.
thats just another way of looking at it.. amatersu can be ignited in water by the way and is full version susanoo airtight?

FlyingThunderGod
07-26-2010, 10:25 PM
good no talk about Susano, because Susano is not completely unstopable

J-Sun Tasogare
07-26-2010, 10:45 PM
thats just another way of looking at it.. amatersu can be ignited in water by the way and is full version susanoo airtight?
No it can't seeing as there is water infront of his eyes and it ignites whatever is in his vision, which water would be.

He still has to breathe and full Susanoo is featless you would be giving him a disadvantage using it.

SimpleGenin
07-27-2010, 12:28 AM
No it can't seeing as there is water infront of his eyes and it ignites whatever is in his vision, which water would be.

He still has to breathe and full Susanoo is featless you would be giving him a disadvantage using it.
haha your funny.. this scenerio would happen in a comedy thing,