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The Anti-Existence
07-21-2010, 04:24 AM
A topic of endless fascination it seems judging by the number of threads I've seen it done and the number of websites that go into great detail about it.

The Majin Vegeta vs. Perfect Cell topic made me think this was needed.

So I'll start with my own rough list. It's not complete and I want to see what people here think.

NOTE: Characters being in the same tier does NOT mean they are that close in power. It's just that they're closer to the characters in their tier than the characters in higher tiers.

This also is not including any movie characters.

Tier 0:
Vegito

Tier 1:
Super Buuhan (Super Buu 3/Super Buu w/Gohan + Trunks + Goten + Piccolo)

Tier 2:
Super Buutenks (Super Buu 2/ Super Buu w/SSJ3 Gotenks + Piccolo) - Was owning Gohan who is canonically the strongest unfused character in Z.
Mystic (Ultimate) Gohan
Super Buu 1.5 (Super Buu w/Piccolo + Goten + Trunks)
SSJ3 Gotenks
Buff Buu (Super Buu with the Buff Kai absorbed. Vegeta comments his power was increasing when Super Buu took this form before reverting to Kid Buu)
Base Super Buu

Tier 3:
SSJ Gotenks
Fat Buu
Evil Buu
Kid Buu
SSJ3 Goku
Mr. Buu (the good side of Buu created by absorinb the Fat Kai)

Tier 4:
Base Gotenks
Majin SSJ2 Vegeta/SSJ2 Goku
SSJ2 Teen Gohan
Super Perfect Cell
Adult SSJ2 Gohan/Dabura

Phoenix Wright
07-21-2010, 04:29 AM
Where the hell is Piccolo? :pek

No but seriously, SP Cell needs to be moved up, not to bring what happened in the other thread here however it was complete plot SSJ2 Gohan beat him, at LEAST move him at the top of tier 4 or bottom of tier 3.

Later today will I actually debate for positions, I merely skimmed the list.

Checked the list a bit more. Got some opinions.

SPC>Base Gotenks, as would Goku and MV. As I originally said, Cell deserves the top position.

Tier 4:
SPC
MV and SSJ2 Goku
Base Gotenks
And so on as listed.

It actually looks fairly accurate.

The thing is Goku<Gotenks, but not base, when he did (if he even canonically did(lol canonically)) say that Gotenks was stronger than himself it was during the time Gotenks had SSJ3 on.

kakashirox
07-21-2010, 04:30 AM
Just out of curiousity in super saiyan vegito in the same tier as normal ?

The Anti-Existence
07-21-2010, 04:37 AM
Yes. The way I understand it, he immediately goes to Super Saiyan in the manga. In the anime, base Vegito was owning Buuhan.

So I just made it Vegito in general being in the absolute highest tier.

No but seriously, SP Cell needs to be moved up, not to bring what happened in the other thread here however it was complete plot SSJ2 Gohan beat him, at LEAST move him at the top of tier 4 or bottom of tier 3.

Well I just don't see it. I agree that people do tend to exaggerate how much stronger Gohan was then Cell (it was Cell after all who busted Gohan's arm with a casual attack) but at the end of the day, when Gohan released his full power with the Kamehameha, SP Cell was wiped out.

Goku should be able to do the same.

kakashirox
07-21-2010, 04:38 AM
Yes. The way I understand it, he immediately goes to Super Saiyan in the manga. In the anime, base Vegito was owning Buuhan.

So I just made it Vegito in general being in the absolute highest tier. Ok kool

Phoenix Wright
07-21-2010, 04:39 AM
Yes. The way I understand it, he immediately goes to Super Saiyan in the manga. In the anime, base Vegito was owning Buuhan.

So I just made it Vegito in general being in the absolute highest tier.

Thanks for remembering me =/

Srs bsns tho, liek fur reelz.

Nice edit speed, reading nao.

Okay read it. No.

Gohan>>>Goku at the time. Gohan was one handed and worn out, regular Cell walked through a FF and instantly regenerated, a one handed Kamehameha in no wyay should do anything, even so, Goku being able to, I think not. Like I said on the other thread unless they have plot on their side..

This is a completely different story, SPC rapes Regular PC in every category, just stomps. He isn't even on the same level as him, PC went from getting owned, to regenerating, loling at a point blank Kamehameha and transforming,to when he ROFLed at Gohans power.

Besides what about what else I said? I didn't just mention Cell, I had points on the entire Tier 4.

Okay, I read it more. There's a couple mistakes. SS3 Goku>SSJ Gotenks, so long as Gotenks doesn't go SSJ3. Then he stomps from then on.

The Goku beating Buu thing is overrated, Buu stomps Goku.

kakashirox
07-21-2010, 04:40 AM
I always thought that kid buu was the strongest buu over all because he is faster, can learn techniques by just watching them and he also is the original buu (Im pretty sure)

The Anti-Existence
07-21-2010, 04:40 AM
Check my edited post. :)

The Anti-Existence
07-21-2010, 04:43 AM
I always thought that kid buu was the strongest buu over all because he is faster, can learn techniques by just watching them and he also is the original buu (Im pretty sure)

The Super Buu vs. Kid Buu argument is a long and boring one.

Basically, here's what we know.

Kid Buu absorbing he Kais "weakened" him insofar as it made him less pure evil. However, he is still absorbing people. Just look at what happened when Super Buu absorbed people. It made him stronger, right?

So think of it this way. Super Buu is the equivalent of Buutenks to Kid Buu. It's Kid Buu + several strong fighters.

Goku also says he and Vegeta would not be able to defeat Super Buu even if he was at his base levels. Later he says he alone could defeat Kid Buu.

kakashirox
07-21-2010, 04:45 AM
The Super Buu vs. Kid Buu argument is a long and boring one.

Basically, here's what we know.

Kid Buu absorbing he Kais "weakened" him insofar as it made him less pure evil. However, he is still absorbing people. Just look at what happened when Super Buu absorbed people. It made him stronger, right?

So think of it this way. Super Buu is the equivalent of Buutenks to Kid Buu. It's Kid Buu + several strong fighters.

Goku also says he and Vegeta would not be able to defeat Super Buu even if he was at his base levels. Later he says he alone could defeat Kid Buu. OK i guess you have a good point

The Anti-Existence
07-21-2010, 04:48 AM
:) Thank you. Believe me, I've only gathered all this info from years of debating this topic.

Phoenix Wright
07-21-2010, 05:01 AM
So, hows countering my posts A-E?

Like I said, in no way could Goku beat Buu like he says. Just because he says it, is it true? No. My friend claims he could beat me in a fight, but does it make it true? No.

I said a lot more in my first post than just a request to move SPC up, I'm waiting for a reply.

NagatoGod_of_Pain
07-21-2010, 08:42 AM
I agree with Phoenix Wright that Super Perfect Cell should at least be above SSJ2 Teen Gohan. SPC shot one ki blast that supposedly took half of Gohan's power. With Instant Transmission, SPC would beat Gohan.

Gohan needed a pep talk from Goku, a distraction from Vegeta, and plot to beat SPC.

The 1st Hokage
07-21-2010, 09:35 AM
Why is Kid Buu under Evil and Fat Buu?

Nyruss
07-21-2010, 09:48 AM
Kid Buu > SSJ3 Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks.


Super Buutenks (Super Buu 2/ Super Buu w/SSJ3 Gotenks + Piccolo) - Was owning Gohan who is canonically the strongest unfused character in Z.



I could have sworn it was the other way around?

The 1st Hokage
07-21-2010, 09:51 AM
Kid Buu > SSJ3 Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks.



I could have sworn it was the other way around?
Yeah, Mystic Gohan was owning SB w/ Piccolo and Gotenks absorbed.

Lone Wolf
07-21-2010, 09:52 AM
Why is Kid Buu under Evil and Fat Buu?

Kid Buu = Pure Kid Buu

Fat Buu = Kid Buu + Dai Kaioshin

Kid Buu + Dai Kaioshin > Kid Buu

Nyruss
07-21-2010, 09:54 AM
Wasn't Kid Buu weakened by absorbing Kaioshin???

And anyway, Kid Buu stomped all over Fat Buu in their fight.

Lone Wolf
07-21-2010, 09:56 AM
Kid Buu wasn't weakened, he became more friendly, if bloodlusted he is more powerful than his old self.

I think that is because Kid Buu came out, Dai Kaioshin stayed in Fat Buu's form because of merging for so long.

Nyruss
07-21-2010, 12:10 PM
SSJ3Goku could have killed Fat Buu. He couldn't kill Kid Buu.

The Anti-Existence
07-21-2010, 02:00 PM
Okay I'm not quoting all that.

1. Gohan was losing to Cell because of the plot. He needed a pep talk from Goku and a distraction from Vegeta because the plot demanded he hold back. Only at the very end of the K-Wave Struggle did Gohan release his full power. And guess what? It annihilated every last bit of Cell.

2. SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta are both stronger than Gohan who's full power is above Cell's.

3. All we can say about SSJ Gotenks and SSJ3Goku is that they both could not defeat Super Buu. However Gotenks at least vaped Buu down to just smoke. i can't see Goku doing that.

4. Your friend does not have a spiritual scouter, Phoenix. Goku can sense the level of his own ki and that of his opponents. He knows just how strong Kid Buu and Fat Buu are. I trust his judgment.

5. Gohan was running away from Buutenks. He and Goku both had no chance of winning until the fusion wore off and Buu's primary source of power became Piccolo.

Miles Edgeworth
07-21-2010, 02:18 PM
Okay I'm not quoting all that.

1. Gohan was losing to Cell because of the plot. He needed a pep talk from Goku and a distraction from Vegeta because the plot demanded he hold back. Only at the very end of the K-Wave Struggle did Gohan release his full power. And guess what? It annihilated every last bit of Cell.

2. SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta are both stronger than Gohan who's full power is above Cell's.

3. All we can say about SSJ Gotenks and SSJ3Goku is that they both could not defeat Super Buu. However Gotenks at least vaped Buu down to just smoke. i can't see Goku doing that.

4. Your friend does not have a spiritual scouter, Phoenix. Goku can sense the level of his own ki and that of his opponents. He knows just how strong Kid Buu and Fat Buu are. I trust his judgment.

5. Gohan was running away from Buutenks. He and Goku both had no chance of winning until the fusion wore off and Buu's primary source of power became Piccolo.

1. The very reason Gohan won against SPC was due to the plot. If Cell had truly decided to kill him in the simplest manner, he could easily have teleported behind Gohan and launched Kamehameha. Granted, with his arrogance that would not have happened but nonetheless Cell could indeed have killed Gohan if he tried, but the plot gave Gohan a sudden boost that allowed him to kill Cell, who could very well have avoided it if he was truly bloodlusted and went all out against Gohan in reality.

4. Just because Goku said that he could have defeated Kid Buu on his own doesn't mean he truly could. As far as I could tell, the only move that Goku truly had to kill Buu was the Spirit Bomb, which we all know he cannot land without assistance. Kid Buu overall demonstrated more power than Goku and the only attacks Goku has that can possibly kill Kid Buu are easily dodged or demand too much prep to be reasonable in a one on one fight.

5. I have to get back to the manga again to affirm this, although I too thought Gohan>Buutenks. I need a refresher on it.

The Anti-Existence
07-21-2010, 02:38 PM
1. The very reason Gohan won against SPC was due to the plot. If Cell had truly decided to kill him in the simplest manner, he could easily have teleported behind Gohan and launched Kamehameha. Granted, with his arrogance that would not have happened but nonetheless Cell could indeed have killed Gohan if he tried, but the plot gave Gohan a sudden boost that allowed him to kill Cell, who could very well have avoided it if he was truly bloodlusted and went all out against Gohan in reality.

Except that, in your scenario, Gohan too will be bloodlusted which means he won't be holding back. He'll destroy Cell with the same power that already destroyed him.

4. Just because Goku said that he could have defeated Kid Buu on his own doesn't mean he truly could. As far as I could tell, the only move that Goku truly had to kill Buu was the Spirit Bomb, which we all know he cannot land without assistance. Kid Buu overall demonstrated more power than Goku and the only attacks Goku has that can possibly kill Kid Buu are easily dodged or demand too much prep to be reasonable in a one on one fight.

Power >>>>> technique in Z. I'll remind you that SSJ3 Gotenks used a whole bunch of moves on Super Buu and still only was barely winning after a fight.
Gohan, by contrast, defeated Super Buu with a few punches.

If the person has the power to do it, that's all that matters.

Miles Edgeworth
07-21-2010, 02:42 PM
Except that, in your scenario, Gohan too will be bloodlusted which means he won't be holding back. He'll destroy Cell with the same power that already destroyed him.



Power >>>>> technique in Z. I'll remind you that SSJ3 Gotenks used a whole bunch of moves on Super Buu and still only was barely winning after a fight.
Gohan, by contrast, defeated Super Buu with a few punches.

If the person has the power to do it, that's all that matters.

Absolutely nothing is holding Cell back from merely teleporting away from any Kamehameha that Gohan tries to use. Unfortunately for Gohan, he lacks teleportation so things really won't go too well for him. Cell could easily have simply teleported behind Gohan to kill him, as Gohan was solely focused on keeping that Kamehameha, what would have kept Cell from doing a simple sneak attack? It's a cheap blow, but nonetheless one that will work. Also, Vegeta used a sneak attack on Cell, which made him lower his guard and thus lowered his focus on the Kamehameha. Who is to say that Gohan could overpower Cell the same way without a distraction like that?

In no way has Goku ever shown the power to take out Kid Buu, aside from the Spirit Bomb that Kid Buu would never allow Goku to prepare. Goku may be a tough contender, but in the end there just isn't a way that Goku can actually take out Buu on his own.

The Anti-Existence
07-21-2010, 02:56 PM
You forget SPC was at full power for the entire K-Wave fight while Gohan had only one arm. Sure Vegeta distracted Cel to give Gohan an opening but Gohan was crippled and not at his best even before the struggle began.

As for Cell teleporting behind him..so what? Goku has IT too. It hasn't proved too helpful against opponents of equal or greater power. One surprise barely charged Kamehameha is not going to hurt a bloodlusted at his strongest Gohan.

And I do see your point about Goku... Hm. I'll move Kid Buu up.

Tourune
07-21-2010, 03:00 PM
Are you putting More Villans?

Zenbaki Kisamana
07-21-2010, 03:02 PM
What happened to Gogeta?

The Anti-Existence
07-21-2010, 05:08 PM
Read the OP. No movie characters.

Miles Edgeworth
07-21-2010, 05:58 PM
You forget SPC was at full power for the entire K-Wave fight while Gohan had only one arm. Sure Vegeta distracted Cel to give Gohan an opening but Gohan was crippled and not at his best even before the struggle began.

As for Cell teleporting behind him..so what? Goku has IT too. It hasn't proved too helpful against opponents of equal or greater power. One surprise barely charged Kamehameha is not going to hurt a bloodlusted at his strongest Gohan.

And I do see your point about Goku... Hm. I'll move Kid Buu up.

The very person who crushed that arm was Cell, I really don't see why Cell couldn't replicate the feat.

Even if Gohan wasn't at his best, that doesn't change the fact that Vegeta was attacking Cell in the back, and it's really difficult to maintain a powerful attack through focus when someone is spamming energy blasts at you from behind. I highly doubt things would happen the same way without Vegeta around.

The reason that IT hardly works for Goku is that most of his opponents once he has learned it have regen, on the other hand Gohan lacks regen, so a surprise Kamehameha to the face via teleport would be much more useful against Gohan. Also, I'd say that a teleport Kamehameha could do quite some damage, seeing as how Cell casually crippled Gohan.

NagatoGod_of_Pain
07-21-2010, 06:05 PM
You forget SPC was at full power for the entire K-Wave fight while Gohan had only one arm. Sure Vegeta distracted Cel to give Gohan an opening but Gohan was crippled and not at his best even before the struggle began.

As for Cell teleporting behind him..so what? Goku has IT too. It hasn't proved too helpful against opponents of equal or greater power. One surprise barely charged Kamehameha is not going to hurt a bloodlusted at his strongest Gohan.

And I do see your point about Goku... Hm. I'll move Kid Buu up.

Yes, SPC was at full power and that was exactly why he was about to overwhelm Gohan until Vegeta barged in. The manga showed that SPC was winning within a page or two, while the anime decided to make it a full episode of a power struggle. About plot in this fight, you can easily argue both sides had significant plot so it's pointless. We should instead judge on feats, disregarding plot, and techniques available. Going off of that, if it was truly one-on-one, SPC would have beaten SSJ2 Gohan.

5. I have to get back to the manga again to affirm this, although I too thought Gohan>Buutenks. I need a refresher on it.

They were more or less equal during the beginning of the fight. Buutenks then used some mind games, thanks to Piccolo, to mess with Gohan. This caused Buutenks to eventually have the upper hand. But without mind games, they're most likely equal.

Miles Edgeworth
07-21-2010, 06:13 PM
How much power did Buutenks actually have though? I forget the feats already. =/

I would go read the fight between Gohan and Buutenks again, but we all know the issue with online manga sites these days.

SageoftheSixPaths
07-21-2010, 06:19 PM
Evil Buu owned Fat Buu.

Kid Buu is Evil Buu's "perfect" (basically original) form, and he's given far better feats than either Fat, Evil, or even Super Buu. Kid Buu should be above Super Buu Base, basically.

The Anti-Existence
07-21-2010, 06:30 PM
Feats mean nothing in Z. Powerscaling is all that matters. Who you beat is where you are ie. powerscaling is the most correct way to determine power levels in later DBZ.

If we go by feats than Freeza is stronger than Android 17 because Android 17 never blew up a planet.

Also Evil Buu never beat Fat Buu.

Fat Buu = Split into Evil Buu and Mr. Buu. Mr. Buu is pathetically weak compared to every other Buu. Evil Buu got Kid Buu's power + all the Kais absorbed.

SageoftheSixPaths
07-21-2010, 06:36 PM
Feats mean nothing in Z. Powerscaling is all that matters. Who you beat is where you are ie. powerscaling is the most correct way to determine power levels in later DBZ.

If we go by feats than Freeza is stronger than Android 17 because Android 17 never blew up a planet.

Also Evil Buu never beat Fat Buu.

Fat Buu = Split into Evil Buu and Mr. Buu. Mr. Buu is pathetically weak compared to every other Buu. Evil Buu got Kid Buu's power + all the Kais absorbed.
And if we go by feats Android 17 punches a hole through Freiza's face before he can even begin to charge Death Ball.

Then we clearly use different terms for each Buu . . . xD

Mr. Buu = Fat Buu w/o Evil Buu, aka Gray Buu, aka Skinny Buu.

Fat Buu = Evil Buu and Mr. Buu combined

Super Buu (Base) = Evil Buu after taking Mr. Buu's powers

Kid Buu = Original Form of Super Buu

Tell me if we're differing anywhere.

The Anti-Existence
07-21-2010, 06:56 PM
Those are the terms I usually use for all of them.

Phoenix Wright
07-22-2010, 07:30 AM
Okay I'm not quoting all that.

1. Gohan was losing to Cell because of the plot. He needed a pep talk from Goku and a distraction from Vegeta because the plot demanded he hold back. Only at the very end of the K-Wave Struggle did Gohan release his full power. And guess what? It annihilated every last bit of Cell.

2. SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta are both stronger than Gohan who's full power is above Cell's.

3. All we can say about SSJ Gotenks and SSJ3Goku is that they both could not defeat Super Buu. However Gotenks at least vaped Buu down to just smoke. i can't see Goku doing that.

4. Your friend does not have a spiritual scouter, Phoenix. Goku can sense the level of his own ki and that of his opponents. He knows just how strong Kid Buu and Fat Buu are. I trust his judgment.

5. Gohan was running away from Buutenks. He and Goku both had no chance of winning until the fusion wore off and Buu's primary source of power became Piccolo.

1. How was it plot Gohan was losing? It was plot Gohan won, in under no circumstance would the words of plot be switched around in Cell's favor. Whta exactly was this pep talk for? "Gohan hold all of your power back and let Cell own you until I appear behind a Kamehameha!"

2. And when you admit you mean Mystic Gohan I will say "Nice try."

3. Personally I think Gotenks>Goku, but only after Gotenks goes SSJ3. Once Goku does, I dunno, haven't had much to do with Gotenks and Goku's SSJ3 as opposed to others.

4. How exactly would that change a thing? I trust my friends judgement, most of the time *cough*, who cares what you trust? Goku has went into a fight he surely couldn't win before.

5. No, I'm pretty sure he was doing a good job until he was absorbed.

The Anti-Existence
07-22-2010, 11:39 AM
Think what you want. Cell had every advantage from the beginning with:
A. Releasing his full power immediately
B. Having the use of two arms.

Gohan was crippled during the fight and held back. Those are both facts whether you choose to accept them or not.

My Last Word on SSJ2 Gohan vs. Super Perfect Cell:

Gohan specifically says his power is "less than half" after Cell takes out his arm.

So there you go. Cell is maybe half as strong as SSJ2 TeeN Gohan.

MysticGoten
07-22-2010, 01:32 PM
Ho, ho, ho, ho(Freeza). This has to get through me.

SageoftheSixPaths
07-22-2010, 01:40 PM
Oh, ho ho. This has to get through me.
Resident DBZ expert says he wants to take a look? I say go right ahead. :p

MysticGoten
07-22-2010, 01:43 PM
I'll dig into it in a couple minutes.
EDIT: Weeks.

Narutorious
07-22-2010, 08:43 PM
Wasn't Kid Buu weakened by absorbing Kaioshin???
Yes, Majin Buu was weakened after absorbing Master Kaioshin, however, he wasn't Kid Buu at the time, he was the huge Buu(Kid Buu after absorbing South Kaioshin), so that only proves that Fat Buu is weaker than Huge Buu.

And anyway, Kid Buu stomped all over Fat Buu in their fight.
Kid Buu was stomping all over Good Buu, who is much weaker than the original Fat Buu.

Feats mean nothing in Z. Powerscaling is all that matters.
I'm going to positive rep you for this, you are right, feats are good for Naruto, but meaningless in DBZ.