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View Full Version : Gato Theory...Seriously.


mrsticky005
07-18-2010, 02:38 AM
Ok, remember in Chapter 500 when Kushina tells Naruto about being from the Land of Whirlpools. If you look at the map it just so happens to be where the present day Land of Waves is now located. Remember who was once the big cheese of the Land of Waves...that's right: the one, the only, the Gato.

In Chapter 450 we saw Old Man Tazuna and his Grandson Inari once more.
It seemed like one of those "catch up" moments. See how old characters
are doing. But it may be more than just that. The story is coming full circle.

Could it possibly be...that Gato was working with Madara?

Yes. I know Gato had his own agenda of becoming a shipping tycoon.
But who's to say that he wasn't in league with Madara (or at the very
least the Mizukage side of Madara). For those who say that he couldn't
have been working with Madara since he had Zabuza and Haku working
for him but let's not forget that Gato betrayed Zabuza as he had planned
all along. Madara and Gato could have allied together for the same goal.

Preventing the Great Naruto Bridge from being built.

Ok, so we know why Gato didn't want the bridge build (and hence why
he wanted Tazuna dead) because he wanted a complete monopoly
over the shipping industry. But what about Madara?

It seems that whenever there is a genocide...Madara isn't far behind.
The Uchiha Clan was wiped out by not only Itachi but also Madara.
Madara was once Mizukage and very likely the Fourth Mizukage De Facto
so he probably started the whole Bloody Mist Village and also the elimination of Haku and Kimmimaro's Clan. Then we find out that
the Uzumaki Clan was virtually wiped out because their sealing jutsu
was quite feared. But wiped out by who? I'm guessing the Hidden Mist
while Madara was the Fourth Mizukage De Facto.

Madara didn't want a bridge built either because he didn't want the
truth to be known. Both the Land of Rain, and the Land of Water
were once completely isolated from the rest of the ninja world.
Both these places were major hideouts of the Akatsuki.
Madara wanted the Land of Waves isolated so the truth wouldn't get out.

So what about Zabuza?

Zabuza was once of the Seven Swordsman of the Hidden Mist.
I actually think he was always a good guy all along. I think
Zabuza found out about Kisame being in the Akatsuki which
was led by the Fourth Mizukage. Zabuza made a grave error
in thinking that Yagura, the Three Tails was the true Fourth
Mizukage when in actuality his enemy was the Fourth Mizukage De Facto:

Madara Uchiha.

Instead of trying to capture Zabuza himself and risk revealing his true identity to the ninja world, Madara secretly joined hands with Gato
(probably as the Mizukage) and it was arranged that Zabuza and
Haku would work for Gato and prevent the bridge from being built.
Once the job was done, they would then be eliminated.

Gato and Madara were in league together to destroy the bridge.

Gato wanted total control over the shipping industry

Madara wanted the truth kept hidden.

gama-sennin
07-18-2010, 05:11 AM
Makes sense. I mean now we know for sure that kishi hasn't done a single thing randomly. Even the crack on third's face has an explanation now. So Zabuza rebelling right when 4th mizukage was ruling hidden mist has to be important to the story.

MinatoUchiha
07-18-2010, 05:44 AM
actually....sounds good, could be true

Lady Tsunade
07-18-2010, 05:51 AM
Great theory
+Rep :]

However, Im not sure if Kishi would bring Gato back into the story. For the simple reason that he died so long ago.

mrsticky005
07-18-2010, 05:56 AM
Great theory
+Rep :]

However, Im not sure if Kishi would bring Gato back into the story. For the simple reason that he died so long ago.

Gato is dead. It's just that Volumes 1-4 are going to mean a lot more now.

Wooster
07-18-2010, 06:11 AM
Gato, maybe. Kishimoto did bring Zabuza sword back into play much later.

I would still be hesitant to say the land of Whirlpools is the same as the lland of Waves.

Could there have been a pact between Madara and Gato easily.

However, I think what we will see and is in your theory is a deeper explanation about the failed coup d'tat. That is something that needs explanation and could be pretty interesting since it is almost a certainty that Madara was in control at the time. However, I think Zabuza still pretty evil, and I don't think he attempted the assassination for any reason beyond personal.

mrsticky005
07-18-2010, 06:30 AM
Gato, maybe. Kishimoto did bring Zabuza sword back into play much later.

I would still be hesitant to say the land of Whirlpools is the same as the lland of Waves.

Could there have been a pact between Madara and Gato easily.

However, I think what we will see and is in your theory is a deeper explanation about the failed coup d'tat. That is something that needs explanation and could be pretty interesting since it is almost a certainty that Madara was in control at the time. However, I think Zabuza still pretty evil, and I don't think he attempted the assassination for any reason beyond personal.

I'm not saying Zabuza is a goody two shoes...

I think Zabuza had his own set of moral rules.

Whereas someone like Madara has no rules whatsoever.

Wooster
07-18-2010, 06:34 AM
I'm not saying Zabuza is a goody two shoes...

I think Zabuza had his own set of moral rules.

Whereas someone like Madara has no rules whatsoever.
Hmm, I thinks that's backwards. Zabuza has no moral rules. Madara has his view on life that he follows. Although, Madara's hatred and bearing of grudges knows no bounds.

Rikudo Sennin
07-18-2010, 06:39 AM
Although Long, but it was worth reading.

+Rep

mrsticky005
07-18-2010, 06:40 AM
Hmm, I thinks that's backwards. Zabuza has no moral rules. Madara has his view on life that he follows. Although, Madara's hatred and bearing of grudges knows no bounds.


Disagree.

Zabuza has morals...otherwise it wouldn't be possible for him to feel guilty about Haku's death which in the end he did. He even cried about it.

You're not going to see that happen with Madara. Ever.

Madara is evil. Period.

Ayden
07-18-2010, 06:40 AM
This would be great to see Zabuza again and to find out he's still a badass and learn his motives so awesome I like mr!!!

mrsticky005
07-18-2010, 06:51 AM
This would be great to see Zabuza again and to find out he's still a badass and learn his motives so awesome I like mr!!!

Expect to find out more in the expected Naruto vs Kisame fight

(Naruto will be the one to defeat Kisame.)


I sense an epic flashback fight:

Kisame the Traitorous Akatsuki Seventh Swordsman of the Hidden Mist

vs Zabuza the Six Other Swordsman of the Hidden Mist.

WolfSpiritLover
07-18-2010, 06:59 AM
Hmm... You really thought this through...
However... It does make sense... It could be true!
I mean...creating one big plot is typical something for Madara!

mrsticky005
07-18-2010, 09:48 AM
Hmm... You really thought this through...
However... It does make sense... It could be true!
I mean...creating one big plot is typical something for Madara!

Now how can we tie Mizuki into all of this?

Madara: I manipulated Mizuki...and created ALL THE FILLERS!

toad
07-18-2010, 09:54 AM
sounds logical, but after the whole zabuza arc was done, wouldnt madara have done something about the bridge though?

mrsticky005
07-18-2010, 10:15 AM
sounds logical, but after the whole zabuza arc was done, wouldnt madara have done something about the bridge though?


Madara was trying to keep it on the down low so he probably thought that keeping the bridge was less risky than going out of his way to destroy it.
With Gato around, everyone would think it was for money.

WindScar22
07-18-2010, 10:49 AM
This is a good idea. I would rep you, but for some reason it says the last person I repped was you so I have to spread it around. I'll get back to it once I rep someone else. I never thought about this, though. Shows how much free time a true Naruto fan has. XD

mrsticky005
07-18-2010, 10:50 AM
This is a good idea. I would rep you, but for some reason it says the last person I repped was you so I have to spread it around. I'll get back to it once I rep someone else. I never thought about this, though. Shows how much free time a true Naruto fan has. XD

Thanks.

WindScar22
07-18-2010, 10:57 AM
You're welcome. I'm always in a good mood. XD No, seriously.

mrsticky005
07-18-2010, 11:04 AM
You're welcome. I'm always in a good mood. XD No, seriously.

It's no biggie for the rep. Really just reading and posting is pretty cool.

Getting rep is more like a bonus.

Hidden Ninja45
07-18-2010, 12:07 PM
Wow, that is an interesting theory. It does make sense. But I don't think Gato will be brought up again. I barely even remember he existed.

Wooster
07-18-2010, 02:12 PM
Disagree.

Zabuza has morals...otherwise it wouldn't be possible for him to feel guilty about Haku's death which in the end he did. He even cried about it.

You're not going to see that happen with Madara. Ever.

Madara is evil. Period.
No.

Zabuza has no morals. He massacred the entire classes after all.

The point was Haku changed Zabuza. Madara doesn't just kill people; he has his reason. He actually wants peace in his strange, twisted way.

mrsticky005
07-18-2010, 08:59 PM
No.

Zabuza has no morals. He massacred the entire classes after all.

The point was Haku changed Zabuza. Madara doesn't just kill people; he has his reason. He actually wants peace in his strange, twisted way.


Madara does not want peace. He wants to destroy everyone or enslave everyone but himself. Just because Madara says he wants peace doesn't
mean he actually does.

Don't you go be making Madara into Danzo!

Zabuza is like Sai Shaft.
Trained to have no emotions but can't get rid of them.

Wooster
07-19-2010, 07:48 AM
Madara does not want peace. He wants to destroy everyone or enslave everyone but himself. Just because Madara says he wants peace doesn't
mean he actually does.

Don't you go be making Madara into Danzo!

Zabuza is like Sai Shaft.
Trained to have no emotions but can't get rid of them.
No, he is not like Danzo. Madara wants peace that he rules. Danzo just want peace in the ninja way, of course. What's interesting is that the Third pretty much described what Danzo wants during the chunin exams. Strangely enough the Third has been ret-conned into a wimp or something. Regardless, Tsunade takes the nicity-nice and believe in your heart to the extreme. No wonder Danzo hates her.

Back to the topic at hand. Of course, Madara wants power too that has been obvious from the beginning. In this way he and Zabuza are alike.

Zabuza is like a sadistic, younger Madara back in the Konoha formation days. Zabuza has emotions, joy of killing. This is why he not exactly like Foundation members.

mrsticky005
07-19-2010, 08:09 AM
No, he is not like Danzo. Madara wants peace that he rules. Danzo just want peace in the ninja way, of course. What's interesting is that the Third pretty much described what Danzo wants during the chunin exams. Strangely enough the Third has been ret-conned into a wimp or something. Regardless, Tsunade takes the nicity-nice and believe in your heart to the extreme. No wonder Danzo hates her.

Back to the topic at hand. Of course, Madara wants power too that has been obvious from the beginning. In this way he and Zabuza are alike.

Zabuza is like a sadistic, younger Madara back in the Konoha formation days. Zabuza has emotions, joy of killing. This is why he not exactly like Foundation members.


Madara doesn't want peace.

When Naruto said "You're nothing like Nagato. He actually wanted peace."

Madara laughed and said "Heh. You're right."

Madara couldn't care less about peace. He wants power. Always has/will.
Why does he want power? Because of his inflamed ego. He's a sore loser.

Danzo wants power and control to lead to peace. Danzo is the ugly truth incarnate. Danzo is what is necessary to keep men like Madara in check.

Now for Zabuza. Sure he's cruel but who wasn't in the Bloody Mist? And who is most likely responsible for that whole dealio? Who else but Madara?
(Sure, it could be all Yagura's doing...but I seriously doubt the three tails
is going to one up Madara in the evil department) Zabuza tried to assasinate the Mizukage and failed. Why did he fail? Most likely because
he attacked Yagura and not the true Mizukage...Madara. But why did he
try to assassinate the Mizukage in the first place? The Bloody Mist was
riddled with civil wars and was probably worse than the Hidden Rain.
Zabuza was gonna kill the Mizukage and put an end to it. But he failed.
Zabuza was then on the run but he still had his ambition. Zabuza
worked for a lowlife like Gato because he needed money. Zabuza needed
money to finance Mizukage Assassination Part 2. Zabuza isn't evil
but misguided and misunderstood. That's why Naruto could change him.
Naruto will never be able to change someone like Madara.

Anbu_Black_Op
07-19-2010, 08:15 AM
oh very good theory nicely put together,i think it could be a big possiblility

mrsticky005
07-19-2010, 08:39 AM
I wonder when the Bloody Mist ended?

Wooster
07-19-2010, 09:01 AM
Madara doesn't want peace.

When Naruto said "You're nothing like Nagato. He actually wanted peace."

Madara laughed and said "Heh. You're right."

Madara couldn't care less about peace. He wants power. Always has/will.
Why does he want power? Because of his inflamed ego. He's a sore loser.

Danzo wants power and control to lead to peace. Danzo is the ugly truth incarnate. Danzo is what is necessary to keep men like Madara in check.

Now for Zabuza. Sure he's cruel but who wasn't in the Bloody Mist? And who is most likely responsible for that whole dealio? Who else but Madara?
(Sure, it could be all Yagura's doing...but I seriously doubt the three tails
is going to one up Madara in the evil department) Zabuza tried to assasinate the Mizukage and failed. Why did he fail? Most likely because
he attacked Yagura and not the true Mizukage...Madara. But why did he
try to assassinate the Mizukage in the first place? The Bloody Mist was
riddled with civil wars and was probably worse than the Hidden Rain.
Zabuza was gonna kill the Mizukage and put an end to it. But he failed.
Zabuza was then on the run but he still had his ambition. Zabuza
worked for a lowlife like Gato because he needed money. Zabuza needed
money to finance Mizukage Assassination Part 2. Zabuza isn't evil
but misguided and misunderstood. That's why Naruto could change him.
Naruto will never be able to change someone like Madara.
But that's your flaw. Madara is not Orochimaru. Orochimaru just wants chaos, he did not want to rule.

Madara does want to rule, thus he wants peace when he rules. It is the exact opposite of Danzo. Danzo wants there to be peace, in the power through force manner of course, thus he needs to rule. It is logical for Danzo and ego for Madara.

Zabuza was especially cruel. Remember the end the Bloody Mist training because of Zabuza. He went beyond all others.

If Zabuza only tried to take control of the Mist village because it was poorly run, why did he still want to take over later with Mai running it? She seems to have stabilized the Mist village quite well.

Zabuza is most definitely evil. His motivations are only for himself and not only will he do anything to achieve his goals, he enjoys the killing as well.

Now Zabuza is not Madara, he is small time. He is like the hit-man that enjoys his work, and wants to buy villa in South American when he retires.

What am I saying? I have the perfect analogy that at least we will understand even of no one else does. Zabuza is Roberto and Madara is Johan. Done.

Jakropha
07-19-2010, 11:43 AM
Epic?

That would be kinda cool if Madara was the kind of freemasons for America as he is for the Naruto storyline, Now if only we were to find out E has another fist in his beard... then we'll have seen it all...

mrsticky005
07-19-2010, 08:04 PM
But that's your flaw. Madara is not Orochimaru. Orochimaru just wants chaos, he did not want to rule.

Madara does want to rule, thus he wants peace when he rules. It is the exact opposite of Danzo. Danzo wants there to be peace, in the power through force manner of course, thus he needs to rule. It is logical for Danzo and ego for Madara.

Zabuza was especially cruel. Remember the end the Bloody Mist training because of Zabuza. He went beyond all others.

If Zabuza only tried to take control of the Mist village because it was poorly run, why did he still want to take over later with Mai running it? She seems to have stabilized the Mist village quite well.

Zabuza is most definitely evil. His motivations are only for himself and not only will he do anything to achieve his goals, he enjoys the killing as well.

Now Zabuza is not Madara, he is small time. He is like the hit-man that enjoys his work, and wants to buy villa in South American when he retires.

What am I saying? I have the perfect analogy that at least we will understand even of no one else does. Zabuza is Roberto and Madara is Johan. Done.


Johan is more evil than Roberto. Hence Madara more evil than Zabuza.

Done.

9tail
07-19-2010, 08:48 PM
hmm...ok gato is that boss lookin dude in the zabuza saga right?...in this case, it makes sense...awsome...i wish i paid a little more attention to the beggnining of the series...but question is, why would this be important so late in the series?...just to make fans relize that the zabuza saga wasnt a complete waste of time?...to further fans facination with madara?...

Kiko-kun
07-20-2010, 03:04 AM
but of corse.

Uchiha-Kun
07-20-2010, 03:12 AM
but of corse.
i know right?

mrsticky005
07-20-2010, 06:18 AM
hmm...ok gato is that boss lookin dude in the zabuza saga right?...in this case, it makes sense...awsome...i wish i paid a little more attention to the beggnining of the series...but question is, why would this be important so late in the series?...just to make fans relize that the zabuza saga wasnt a complete waste of time?...to further fans facination with madara?...


Yes to both.

Whether or not Kishimoto had this whole plot in mind when he wrote the Zabuza Sage, I think now he (or at least his editors) would want the story
to tie together so people would be encouraged to buy ALL the volumes.

Madara is a major antagonist if not the antagonist of the story.
It's important to have an antagonist who rivals or succeeds the protagonist. Otherwise there is no conflict and no story.

Wooster
07-20-2010, 06:22 AM
Johan is more evil than Roberto. Hence Madara more evil than Zabuza.

Done.
Wrong. Johan is more intelligent than Roberto, not more evil.

mrsticky005
07-20-2010, 07:38 AM
Wrong. Johan is more intelligent than Roberto, not more evil.


Johan is more evil than Roberto. I know the whole series. You don't. Nyah. :p

Anywho, Johan is to Roberto as Hitler was to Nazi Soldiers.

The Nazi Soldiers may have done all the horrible deeds...

But who gave the orders? Hitler (through a chain of command)

Johan gives orders. Roberto completes them.

Johan also DOES kill people with his own hands (and a gun.)
Though this is shown sparingly for the sake of suspense.

Roberto just likes killing.

Johan cares more about people experiencing
as Danzo..I mean blind old man said "Ultimate Fear".
Then when he's had his fun he kills them.


Compare the Library Scene

Roberto was cool with the "Shoot Schuwald" plan. Plain and simple.
But Johan found that too dull and went with the...

BURN THE LIBRARY WITH EVERYONE INSIDE IT plan

Sure, Dr Tenma did end up saving a lot of people but it's not like Johan actually gave a care if everybody fried to a crisp or not. He just wanted to give everyone...the ultimate fear . People dying was a bonus.

Johan drives people to commit suicide (or makes it look like they did.)


Johan is more evil than Roberto.

Madara is more evil than Zabuza.

Waldo IS Carmen Sandiago..on Tijuana Tuesdays!

lord of puppets
07-20-2010, 12:52 PM
nice theory it makes sense

White Dragon
07-20-2010, 12:56 PM
Hmm..this makes some sense. Sadly, Gato's been dead for a while, but it would clear some things up.

*200 posts! :O :O *

Wooster
07-20-2010, 01:15 PM
Johan is more evil than Roberto. I know the whole series. You don't. Nyah. :p

Anywho, Johan is to Roberto as Hitler was to Nazi Soldiers.

The Nazi Soldiers may have done all the horrible deeds...

But who gave the orders? Hitler (through a chain of command)

Johan gives orders. Roberto completes them.

Johan also DOES kill people with his own hands (and a gun.)
Though this is shown sparingly for the sake of suspense.

Roberto just likes killing.

Johan cares more about people experiencing
as Danzo..I mean blind old man said "Ultimate Fear".
Then when he's had his fun he kills them.


Compare the Library Scene

Roberto was cool with the "Shoot Schuwald" plan. Plain and simple.
But Johan found that too dull and went with the...

BURN THE LIBRARY WITH EVERYONE INSIDE IT plan

Sure, Dr Tenma did end up saving a lot of people but it's not like Johan actually gave a care if everybody fried to a crisp or not. He just wanted to give everyone...the ultimate fear . People dying was a bonus.

Johan drives people to commit suicide (or makes it look like they did.)


Johan is more evil than Roberto.

Madara is more evil than Zabuza.

Waldo IS Carmen Sandiago..on Tijuana Tuesdays!
You realize by my ever harsher conditions, you have now agreed with my point that Zabuza is evil.:lol:

Besides Roberto thought Johan was brilliant in his fire strategy. He liked it just as much. Roberto just wasn't smart enough to figure it out himself.

Remember they look just like ants comment followed by laughter?

Rezeon
07-20-2010, 02:19 PM
Huh, I guess if I would have put a Zabuza tie-in into the thread I made earlier this month it would have gotten a bit more attention... http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63591

Personally I think with what we know about Tobi, his relationship with the Hidden Mist Village, and the final fate of the Land of Whirlpools it seems like they could all tie together quite nicely. Tobi had a motive to whipe out the Land of Whirpools and the Hidden Mist Village provided him a rather straight forward way to handle it.

As for how Zabuza could play into it...

I've never spent much time looking at the databook statistics on all the characters, so I don't know most of the ages of the older cast, but I always assumed Zabuza was pretty close to Kakashi's age. Which means he would have been rookie age during the last ninja war when the destruction of the land of whirlpools happened. Considering the reputation Zabuza had as a kid he would have been the right type of canidate for a mission to crush another nation. Of course I'm just guessing on this part as I'm not certain of his age...

We don't really have much information about Tobi's time as secret Mizukage or when specifically it happened though. The overall problem is that we just don't know how long each Mizukage was in power. Mai (5th and current Mizukage) seems relatively young so it is hard to say how long she has been running things, the artwork we've seen of 4th Mizukage made him look very young compared to the other 8 hosts, and we know squat about the other 3 Mizukage before that.

Considering the artwork and the fact that the 3-tails was loose in the world it would seem he had a short reign with a violent death. The fact that Tobi didn't simply take the 3-tails at that point would either imply the Akatsuki wasn't formed yet or he wasn't controlling that particular Mizukage. It also seems that he wasn't taken out by his own village though, otherwise they would have had a new host ready.



Gato on the other hand I have a lot more trouble trying to tie into this. When we saw him he seemed like just a small time local crime boss, trying to push a classic protection racket on the locals. Zabuza was simply his hired muscle. I just never got the feel that anything larger than that was ever going on with Gato.

I also doubt Tobi would have needed to keep anything secret about the destruction of the Land of Whirlpools, as that event was already a good 20 years old by the time of that mission.

ObitoUchiha
07-20-2010, 02:36 PM
well, they probably wont bring back gato, but, we could have his kid, KISAME!!!! (duh duh DUHHHHHH!!!!!!! `:) ) make a formal alliance and get gatos men from the land of waves to attack, and he could become mizukage again lol. and then, he would take over the leaf and also be hokage, and having two villages with full power, he could easily take over any other village! MWAHAHAAHAHAHHAAAA

it would also explain why when madara introduced himself to kisame, they seemed to know each other quite well xD
Kisame: its too bad dad's attack on zabuza went badly, but thanks for taking me under your wing madara `:)
Madara: your welcome little boy `:) lets destroy a village now!
Kisame YAY!!! `:D

(fail lol)

Wooster
07-20-2010, 02:43 PM
Huh, I guess if I would have put a Zabuza tie-in into the thread I made earlier this month it would have gotten a bit more attention... http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63591

Personally I think with what we know about Tobi, his relationship with the Hidden Mist Village, and the final fate of the Land of Whirlpools it seems like they could all tie together quite nicely. Tobi had a motive to whipe out the Land of Whirpools and the Hidden Mist Village provided him a rather straight forward way to handle it.

As for how Zabuza could play into it...

I've never spent much time looking at the databook statistics on all the characters, so I don't know most of the ages of the older cast, but I always assumed Zabuza was pretty close to Kakashi's age. Which means he would have been rookie age during the last ninja war when the destruction of the land of whirlpools happened. Considering the reputation Zabuza had as a kid he would have been the right type of canidate for a mission to crush another nation. Of course I'm just guessing on this part as I'm not certain of his age...

We don't really have much information about Tobi's time as secret Mizukage or when specifically it happened though. The overall problem is that we just don't know how long each Mizukage was in power. Mai (5th and current Mizukage) seems relatively young so it is hard to say how long she has been running things, the artwork we've seen of 4th Mizukage made him look very young compared to the other 8 hosts, and we know squat about the other 3 Mizukage before that.

Considering the artwork and the fact that the 3-tails was loose in the world it would seem he had a short reign with a violent death. The fact that Tobi didn't simply take the 3-tails at that point would either imply the Akatsuki wasn't formed yet or he wasn't controlling that particular Mizukage. It also seems that he wasn't taken out by his own village though, otherwise they would have had a new host ready.



Gato on the other hand I have a lot more trouble trying to tie into this. When we saw him he seemed like just a small time local crime boss, trying to push a classic protection racket on the locals. Zabuza was simply his hired muscle. I just never got the feel that anything larger than that was ever going on with Gato.

I also doubt Tobi would have needed to keep anything secret about the destruction of the Land of Whirlpools, as that event was already a good 20 years old by the time of that mission. No Zabuza was a bit younger than Kakakshi.

He probably wouldn't have been involved in the last ninja war.

Shikamaru Nara
07-20-2010, 02:52 PM
I'm not saying Zabuza is a goody two shoes...

I think Zabuza had his own set of moral rules.

Whereas someone like Madara has no rules whatsoever.

Zabuza didn't have rules.

Wooster
07-20-2010, 03:18 PM
Zabuza didn't have rules.
Thank you.
Your move, Stick Man.:p

mrsticky005
07-20-2010, 05:19 PM
Zabuza didn't have rules.


Note the key words I put of "I think"

from what we seen Zabuza was shown to have no rules.

But remember how he was supposed to be emotionalness too?

After Naruto's speech he started crying.

Yes, Zabuza treated Haku like a tool but in the end he did care about him.

Think Madara cares about Sasuke at all? Think again.

mrsticky005
07-20-2010, 05:21 PM
Let me it this way:

Whether you believe Zabuza is good or bad now...

He will end up being shown to be good but misunderstood all along.

His actions will seem a lot more justify after future revelations.

Rezeon
07-21-2010, 09:32 AM
No Zabuza was a bit younger than Kakakshi.

He probably wouldn't have been involved in the last ninja war.

Yeah, I got to thinking about that after I posted, and remembered that the destruction of the Eddy Village was closer to when Kushina was a kid, so Zabuza definitely wouldn't have been a ninja at the time.

I forgot that the war lasted a few decades. If I remember correctly the 3 Sannin were already fighting battles in the war before Jiraiya even started training Minato, then the war only ended quite awhile later after Minato had finished teaching his own team.

With a conflict of that scale and length it really makes you wonder what was going on during that time.

XxblackxX
07-21-2010, 09:36 AM
Makes sense, I mean, He might not have realized that Madara was evil and stayed loyal to him as he was Mizukage.

gama-sennin
07-21-2010, 10:17 AM
The thing with Zabuza is, whatever he was for all his life, he changed just before he died. The successful use of TnJ by naruto proves that there was something good in Zabuza's mind. But it wont be the same with Tobi/madara that guy is like the typical brainy evil who doesn't give a crap about stuff like other people and their lives.

Zabuza never really believed the generally accepted philosophy about ninjas and still he tried to embrace it, tried to turn himself into an emotionless killing machine. This is why he killed so many kids in the exams. But when Haku died he felt the emotions he had tried to get rid of and end up paying with his life to avenge Haku on Gatoh.

mrsticky005
07-21-2010, 01:35 PM
The thing with Zabuza is, whatever he was for all his life, he changed just before he died. The successful use of TnJ by naruto proves that there was something good in Zabuza's mind. But it wont be the same with Tobi/madara that guy is like the typical brainy evil who doesn't give a crap about stuff like other people and their lives.

Zabuza never really believed the generally accepted philosophy about ninjas and still he tried to embrace it, tried to turn himself into an emotionless killing machine. This is why he killed so many kids in the exams. But when Haku died he felt the emotions he had tried to get rid of and end up paying with his life to avenge Haku on Gatoh.


What gama-sennin said. Which is `:Pbit`:P approved by the way.

Wooster
07-21-2010, 02:05 PM
The thing with Zabuza is, whatever he was for all his life, he changed just before he died. The successful use of TnJ by naruto proves that there was something good in Zabuza's mind. But it wont be the same with Tobi/madara that guy is like the typical brainy evil who doesn't give a crap about stuff like other people and their lives.

Zabuza never really believed the generally accepted philosophy about ninjas and still he tried to embrace it, tried to turn himself into an emotionless killing machine. This is why he killed so many kids in the exams. But when Haku died he felt the emotions he had tried to get rid of and end up paying with his life to avenge Haku on Gatoh.
There was nothing in Zabuza until end. He loved killing. He was suppose to be dispassionate about it; he wasn't.

Dieter disapproved.

mrsticky005
07-21-2010, 02:17 PM
There was nothing in Zabuza until end. He loved killing. He was suppose to be dispassionate about it; he wasn't.

Dieter disapproved.

Ah, whatever. Wooster wins. HE SHOULD GET MORE REP!!!

Everyone add more rep to Wooster and he'll return the favor...maybe.

Broken promises for the win! Increase Rep-taxation without rep-resentation

*Federal Wooster Reserve strikes again :twisted:*

Wooster
07-21-2010, 02:24 PM
Ah, whatever. Wooster wins. HE SHOULD GET MORE REP!!!

Everyone add more rep to Wooster and he'll return the favor...maybe.

Broken promises for the win! Increase Rep-taxation without rep-resentation

*Federal Wooster Reserve strikes again :twisted:*

Damn you! My rep power has already gone up twice today.

mrsticky005
07-21-2010, 02:35 PM
Damn you! My rep power has already gone up twice today.


But don't you think people should REP you for your great insights?

I mean the winner of the debate WOOSTER should win some MORE REP!

WOOSTER just can't get ENOUGH of your REP!! Hahhahahhahahhahaa :lol::lol:

Federal Wooster Reserve strikes again! (http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61743)

Wooster
07-21-2010, 02:48 PM
But don't you think people should REP you for your great insights?

I mean the winner of the debate WOOSTER should win some MORE REP!

WOOSTER just can't get ENOUGH of your REP!! Hahhahahhahahhahaa :lol::lol:

Federal Wooster Reserve strikes again! (http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61743)
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Kreegah!!!
03-21-2011, 08:50 AM
Expect to find out more in the expected Naruto vs Kisame fight

(Naruto will be the one to defeat Kisame.)


I sense an epic flashback fight:

Kisame the Traitorous Akatsuki Seventh Swordsman of the Hidden Mist

vs Zabuza the Six Other Swordsman of the Hidden Mist.

Guy, but it was best that way, wasn't it?

Now how can we tie Mizuki into all of this?

Madara: I manipulated Mizuki...and created ALL THE FILLERS!

Mizuki was under the assumed employ of Orochimaru, who was at one time under the employ of Pain, who was shepherded by Madara; meaning that Mizuki was under Madara after all!

No.

Zabuza has no morals. He massacred the entire classes after all.

The point was Haku changed Zabuza. Madara doesn't just kill people; he has his reason. He actually wants peace in his strange, twisted way.

Madara does not want peace. He wants to destroy everyone or enslave everyone but himself. Just because Madara says he wants peace doesn't
mean he actually does.

Don't you go be making Madara into Danzo!

Zabuza is like Sai Shaft.
Trained to have no emotions but can't get rid of them.

No, he is not like Danzo. Madara wants peace that he rules. Danzo just want peace in the ninja way, of course. What's interesting is that the Third pretty much described what Danzo wants during the chunin exams. Strangely enough the Third has been ret-conned into a wimp or something. Regardless, Tsunade takes the nicity-nice and believe in your heart to the extreme. No wonder Danzo hates her.

Back to the topic at hand. Of course, Madara wants power too that has been obvious from the beginning. In this way he and Zabuza are alike.

Zabuza is like a sadistic, younger Madara back in the Konoha formation days. Zabuza has emotions, joy of killing. This is why he not exactly like Foundation members.

Just want to momentarily interrupt your repartee to say that had Hiruzen been as wimpy as was merely implied; then Danzo wouldn't have just formed an opposing coalition, he would have wrought death in Hiruzen's camp to prevent his rise to power. Face it, just because Danzo thought things could have been done better, he must've also thought the third wasn't entirely incompetent, unlike Tsunade whom he left to die.

Continue.

Madara doesn't want peace.

When Naruto said "You're nothing like Nagato. He actually wanted peace."

Madara laughed and said "Heh. You're right."

Madara couldn't care less about peace. He wants power. Always has/will.
Why does he want power? Because of his inflamed ego. He's a sore loser.

Danzo wants power and control to lead to peace. Danzo is the ugly truth incarnate. Danzo is what is necessary to keep men like Madara in check.

Now for Zabuza. Sure he's cruel but who wasn't in the Bloody Mist? And who is most likely responsible for that whole dealio? Who else but Madara?
(Sure, it could be all Yagura's doing...but I seriously doubt the three tails
is going to one up Madara in the evil department) Zabuza tried to assasinate the Mizukage and failed. Why did he fail? Most likely because
he attacked Yagura and not the true Mizukage...Madara. But why did he
try to assassinate the Mizukage in the first place? The Bloody Mist was
riddled with civil wars and was probably worse than the Hidden Rain.
Zabuza was gonna kill the Mizukage and put an end to it. But he failed.
Zabuza was then on the run but he still had his ambition. Zabuza
worked for a lowlife like Gato because he needed money. Zabuza needed
money to finance Mizukage Assassination Part 2. Zabuza isn't evil
but misguided and misunderstood. That's why Naruto could change him.
Naruto will never be able to change someone like Madara.

I wonder when the Bloody Mist ended?

I dig the thread non-sequitur. It ended soon after Zabuza zealously over-exerted himself or after his overthrow attempt.

But that's your flaw. Madara is not Orochimaru. Orochimaru just wants chaos, he did not want to rule.

Madara does want to rule, thus he wants peace when he rules. It is the exact opposite of Danzo. Danzo wants there to be peace, in the power through force manner of course, thus he needs to rule. It is logical for Danzo and ego for Madara.

Zabuza was especially cruel. Remember the end the Bloody Mist training because of Zabuza. He went beyond all others.

If Zabuza only tried to take control of the Mist village because it was poorly run, why did he still want to take over later with Mai running it? She seems to have stabilized the Mist village quite well.

Zabuza is most definitely evil. His motivations are only for himself and not only will he do anything to achieve his goals, he enjoys the killing as well.

Now Zabuza is not Madara, he is small time. He is like the hit-man that enjoys his work, and wants to buy villa in South American when he retires.

What am I saying? I have the perfect analogy that at least we will understand even of no one else does. Zabuza is Roberto and Madara is Johan. Done.

Or is it?

hmm...ok gato is that boss lookin dude in the zabuza saga right?...in this case, it makes sense...awsome...i wish i paid a little more attention to the beggnining of the series...but question is, why would this be important so late in the series?...just to make fans relize that the zabuza saga wasnt a complete waste of time?...to further fans facination with madara?...

Yes, but so much more as we will see soon enough.

Yes to both.

Whether or not Kishimoto had this whole plot in mind when he wrote the Zabuza Sage, I think now he (or at least his editors) would want the story
to tie together so people would be encouraged to buy ALL the volumes.

Madara is a major antagonist if not the antagonist of the story.
It's important to have an antagonist who rivals or succeeds the protagonist. Otherwise there is no conflict and no story.

Not just all that. After all, that bit has merit even as just a temporary sidestep. It's where they grew in power! However, the tie was there from the beginning. It won't be actual retcon because it was meant to be.

Hmm..this makes some sense. Sadly, Gato's been dead for a while, but it would clear some things up.

*200 posts! :O :O *

Seems someone shaved a few off there, pal.:(

Here's the thing, and I'm deadly serious. He's the guy in THAT coffin, capable of revealing what even Izuna could not, provided he was actually against this tack anyway. Gato is essentially useless as a combat ET, but as an informant or governing personage... `:shock:

Huh, I guess if I would have put a Zabuza tie-in into the thread I made earlier this month it would have gotten a bit more attention... http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=63591

Personally I think with what we know about Tobi, his relationship with the Hidden Mist Village, and the final fate of the Land of Whirlpools it seems like they could all tie together quite nicely. Tobi had a motive to whipe out the Land of Whirpools and the Hidden Mist Village provided him a rather straight forward way to handle it.

As for how Zabuza could play into it...

I've never spent much time looking at the databook statistics on all the characters, so I don't know most of the ages of the older cast, but I always assumed Zabuza was pretty close to Kakashi's age. Which means he would have been rookie age during the last ninja war when the destruction of the land of whirlpools happened. Considering the reputation Zabuza had as a kid he would have been the right type of canidate for a mission to crush another nation. Of course I'm just guessing on this part as I'm not certain of his age...

We don't really have much information about Tobi's time as secret Mizukage or when specifically it happened though. The overall problem is that we just don't know how long each Mizukage was in power. Mai (5th and current Mizukage) seems relatively young so it is hard to say how long she has been running things, the artwork we've seen of 4th Mizukage made him look very young compared to the other 8 hosts, and we know squat about the other 3 Mizukage before that.

Considering the artwork and the fact that the 3-tails was loose in the world it would seem he had a short reign with a violent death. The fact that Tobi didn't simply take the 3-tails at that point would either imply the Akatsuki wasn't formed yet or he wasn't controlling that particular Mizukage. It also seems that he wasn't taken out by his own village though, otherwise they would have had a new host ready.



Gato on the other hand I have a lot more trouble trying to tie into this. When we saw him he seemed like just a small time local crime boss, trying to push a classic protection racket on the locals. Zabuza was simply his hired muscle. I just never got the feel that anything larger than that was ever going on with Gato.

I also doubt Tobi would have needed to keep anything secret about the destruction of the Land of Whirlpools, as that event was already a good 20 years old by the time of that mission.

Perhaps there were still some living personnel in various lands who knew of potential weaknesses to Madara, so he had to keep things quiet for awhile.

well, they probably wont bring back gato, but, we could have his kid, KISAME!!!! (duh duh DUHHHHHH!!!!!!! `:) ) make a formal alliance and get gatos men from the land of waves to attack, and he could become mizukage again lol. and then, he would take over the leaf and also be hokage, and having two villages with full power, he could easily take over any other village! MWAHAHAAHAHAHHAAAA

it would also explain why when madara introduced himself to kisame, they seemed to know each other quite well xD
Kisame: its too bad dad's attack on zabuza went badly, but thanks for taking me under your wing madara `:)
Madara: your welcome little boy `:) lets destroy a village now!
Kisame YAY!!! `:D

(fail lol)

Mostly fail, yes, but Gato's in the coffin!!!!:geek:`<3

The thing with Zabuza is, whatever he was for all his life, he changed just before he died. The successful use of TnJ by naruto proves that there was something good in Zabuza's mind. But it wont be the same with Tobi/madara that guy is like the typical brainy evil who doesn't give a crap about stuff like other people and their lives.

Zabuza never really believed the generally accepted philosophy about ninjas and still he tried to embrace it, tried to turn himself into an emotionless killing machine. This is why he killed so many kids in the exams. But when Haku died he felt the emotions he had tried to get rid of and end up paying with his life to avenge Haku on Gatoh.

And this is why Woo loses the argument. Zabuza grew to like killing out of necessity; clearly he was tormented by the very philosophy of the end-test and his parents' teachings that we must work to our best abilities. So Zabuza had to give a 110%, and he achieved success early on.

All that death took its toll however, and Zabuza was left nearly inhuman by the time he'd compromised his parents' beliefs by chasing his ambition to the heights of Mizukage (almost) via killing left and right. It took the presences of dear Haku and Naruto to push him back, where he realized that killing should be used sparingly, and not for the intent of achieving power; but for the preservation of the, well, no one's innocent, but you get the idea. He atoned by killing off the vile Gato.

But Gato, too is about to get his second chance. Question is, will he follow the whims of Madara and/or Kabuto???:shock:

Wooster
03-21-2011, 09:42 AM
I happy to find that all links to the now defunct Federal Wooster Reserve lead to an error page now. :D

Kreegah!!!
03-21-2011, 10:32 AM
xD Trying to hide the ol' money trail, eh?

mrsticky005
03-21-2011, 01:49 PM
I happy to find that all links to the now defunct Federal Wooster Reserve lead to an error page now. :D


The Federal Wooster Reserve has gone underground.
They are the puppeteers of the forum.

-Naruto-
03-21-2011, 02:29 PM
Made sense and a good theory, just what I need

+ rep

- Naruto

takuya
03-21-2011, 05:27 PM
The theory makes sense except for the Zabuza being a good guy all along. If Zabuza was a good guy, he would've never worked for Gato in the first place. He could've been undercover so that he can get closer to Madara and Gato in an attempt to eliminate them both. But if that were true, he wouldn't have tried to hard to prevent the bridge from getting built. Not doing it would cause him to lose his cover, but he would know preventing the bridge from being built could possibly cause disasters in the future. That's why I believe Zabuza was just a guy for hire with some morals.

Kreegah!!!
03-22-2011, 12:33 PM
Not good, but having dormant redeeming qualities.

Vivi
03-22-2011, 12:40 PM
Very nice.

Inb4 6th Coffin = Gato.

Kreegah!!!
04-07-2011, 10:42 AM
Oh, he's totally the Mystery Coffin.

ObitoUchiha
04-11-2011, 07:47 PM
well, they probably wont bring back gato, but, we could have his kid, KISAME!!!! (duh duh DUHHHHHH!!!!!!! `:) ) make a formal alliance and get gatos men from the land of waves to attack, and he could become mizukage again lol. and then, he would take over the leaf and also be hokage, and having two villages with full power, he could easily take over any other village! MWAHAHAAHAHAHHAAAA

it would also explain why when madara introduced himself to kisame, they seemed to know each other quite well xD
Kisame: its too bad dad's attack on zabuza went badly, but thanks for taking me under your wing madara `:)
Madara: your welcome little boy `:) lets destroy a village now!
Kisame YAY!!! `:D

(fail lol)
O_e WOW I saw my old post and im glad nobody commented on it.... I feel stupid for posting this but oh well

Anyway, I actually read the posts this time and after reading more of the storyline actually understand what I'm saying now.
I agree with this theory and I like how you pointed out the crack on the third's face, i almost forgot about that xD

Well, all im going to say about the arguement between wooster and mrsticky is just that Madara is completely evil, and does want 'peace' which is basically, no one willl kill each other, but anytime Madara wants to beat people up and/or kill them, he can do that himself.... basically make everyone his toys.

Zabuza was evil, but more in the way gaara was. I forgot who said it but someone said how zabuza killed people for fun, only worked for himself, did his work personally, and basically didn't care about when people died, like madara and former gaara. Naruto did change them both, but for Zabuza he was a little late...

back on topic, I think Zabuza was more of a third party as himself and haku, he didn't work for thevillage for anything but money, threatened to kill his boss many times, and eventually did... but he also fought against Team 7 and Tazuna for more-or-less personal reasons.

I believe he did try to kill the 'evil' Mizukage to bring about peace, but he failed, and im guessing Madara was probably laughing at Zabuza because he almost killed the wrong person... because Madara is more twisted than Zabuza like that... I don't see Zabuza laughing about killing people...

And lastly, I could very easily believe that Madara was working with Gato after reading this and I am wondering why he would try to stop the bridge by killing the builders, but when its made, he doesnt even try to destroy it. It would make a big scene if the bridge was destroyed, but what about all the workers that are getting killed?

EDIT: OH YEAH, almost forgot that I also think that the mystery coffin would be Gato, and that he is also a ninja but we never knew because we never saw a flashback about him :roll: Oh, and he was also once an akatsuki. Ok, end of joke