Sephiroth & Tanduhman Vs. Yori & Sageofthesixpaths (Debate Contest Match 8)

[Jinchiruuki]

SM Jiraiya, SM Naruto vs Kabuto (Orochimaru absorbed)
Conditions/Location: In a Deep Forest with a small body of water nearby and with minimal sight. Kabuto has all the abilities/feats of Orochimaru that we have seen but can only Edo Tensei 1 person that has more feats than hype (and no Hokages) and he does this before the fight starts. 350 meters away. No Dark Swamp for Jiraiya and no boss summons for either side. Naruto cannot use FRS.

NOTE: Whichever team debates Kabuto's side..you choose the Edo Tensei'd character and cannot change from that ex: You choose Sasori....that is the only character along with Kabuto you can debate this match. This is sort of an experiment of mine to formulate better battles for the future so my apologies if this seems idiotic to some of you.

Good luck to both teams!

[Jinchiruuki]

Ahh my apologies for not clarifying this better...man I suck at this xD

I meant to put that Kabuto starts with an Edo Tensei'd character.

EDIT: Check OP one more time Tanduh..and yet again my apologies.

[tanduhman]

Ahh my apologies for not clarifying this better...man I suck at this xD

I meant to put that Kabuto starts with an Edo Tensei'd character.

EDIT: Check OP one more time Tanduh..and yet again my apologies.
ohhhhh... well can I delete what i said and start over? cuz thats kinda screwey..

[Jinchiruuki]

ohhhhh... well can I delete what i said and start over? cuz thats kinda screwey..

Of course you can since I messed it up...for the second time ><

[SageoftheSixPaths]

So I HAVE to debate the Kabuto side? Lame. Oh well.

Anyways, Kabuto summons Nagato. With that said, due to Kabuto having all of Orochimaru's speed and tanking abilities, he can easily spam Sea of Snakes to force Naruto and Jiraiya back for a few seconds. Once that's done, Nagato has all the time he needs to simply call up his Paths.

Once the Paths are summoned, it's all over. Jiraiya had trouble with just Preta and Animal Path. Since Animal is basically useless due to the boss summon restrictions, he'll just run around trying to shank people with his chakra blade.

Considering the fight just went from 2 on 2 to 2 on 8, the battle is immensely in favor of Kabuto's team. Kabuto himself is a gigantic threat due to his giant Jutsu arsenal, speed, strength, and insane durability. We've all seen that Jiraiya pretty much got owned by Asura Path alone. That stuff about him being able to beat Pain with knowledge is utter crap, and besides, neither Naruto or Jiraiya have knowledge of Nagato or Kabuto's abilities in this fight.

Preta absorbs any type of Rasengan based attacks easily. In Sage Mode Naruto can only summon I believe 5 clones, 3 of which are used to gather Senju Chakra. That means there is almost nothing he can do if he doesn't have FRS. Human Path can distract him for a bit while Asura or Deva spams missiles/ lasers/ Shinra Tensei. Jiraiya himself only has Dark Swamp, Toad Flame Bomb, and Ma/ Pa summons. Everything else is basically owned by Preta.

Kabuto himself can likely handle Jiraiya on his own, as Orochimaru has been shown to beat Jiraiya in the past. He also has Hydra. Deva Path alone had Sage Mode Naruto on the ropes, so all 6 of them at once attacking him spells out him getting stomped.

I rest my case.

[tanduhman]

So I HAVE to debate the Kabuto side? Lame. Oh well.

Anyways, Kabuto summons Nagato. With that said, due to Kabuto having all of Orochimaru's speed and tanking abilities, he can easily spam Sea of Snakes to force Naruto and Jiraiya back for a few seconds. Once that's done, Nagato has all the time he needs to simply call up his Paths.

Once the Paths are summoned, it's all over. Jiraiya had trouble with just Preta and Animal Path. Since Animal is basically useless due to the boss summon restrictions, he'll just run around trying to shank people with his chakra blade.

Considering the fight just went from 2 on 2 to 2 on 8, the battle is immensely in favor of Kabuto's team. Kabuto himself is a gigantic threat due to his giant Jutsu arsenal, speed, strength, and insane durability. We've all seen that Jiraiya pretty much got owned by Asura Path alone. That stuff about him being able to beat Pain with knowledge is utter crap, and besides, neither Naruto or Jiraiya have knowledge of Nagato or Kabuto's abilities in this fight.

Preta absorbs any type of Rasengan based attacks easily. In Sage Mode Naruto can only summon I believe 5 clones, 3 of which are used to gather Senju Chakra. That means there is almost nothing he can do if he doesn't have FRS. Human Path can distract him for a bit while Asura or Deva spams missiles/ lasers/ Shinra Tensei. Jiraiya himself only has Dark Swamp, Toad Flame Bomb, and Ma/ Pa summons. Everything else is basically owned by Preta.

Kabuto himself can likely handle Jiraiya on his own, as Orochimaru has been shown to beat Jiraiya in the past. He also has Hydra. Deva Path alone had Sage Mode Naruto on the ropes, so all 6 of them at once attacking him spells out him getting stomped.

I rest my case.


well ive posted two responses now and neither of them work since the changes have been made.. let me just clear this up before i start debating again.. if nagato is your choice of edo tensei than he cannot summon his six paths.. read the bio since their are no summons allowed for either teams.

[SageoftheSixPaths]

well ive posted two responses now and neither of them work since the changes have been made.. let me just clear this up before i start debating again.. if nagato is your choice of edo tensei than he cannot summon his six paths.. read the bio since their are no summons allowed for either teams.
It says "no boss summons", meaning Gamabunta/Manda/Katsuya/any of Animal's summons. The Paths aren't boss summons.

Anyway, Chibaku Tensei or even Chou Shinra Tensei alone are enough to completely decimate Jiraiya and Naruto in one shot. The only way Naruto could survive CT or CST is by going Kyuubi, and doing so automatically DQs him from the fight due to it not actually being HIM that's fighting.

Nagato can do this alone so long as Kabuto gives him enough prep time. Which he does with ease.

[tanduhman]

It says "no boss summons", meaning Gamabunta/Manda/Katsuya/any of Animal's summons. The Paths aren't boss summons.

Anyway, Chibaku Tensei or even Chou Shinra Tensei alone are enough to completely decimate Jiraiya and Naruto in one shot. The only way Naruto could survive CT or CST is by going Kyuubi, and doing so automatically DQs him from the fight due to it not actually being HIM that's fighting.

Nagato can do this alone so long as Kabuto gives him enough prep time. Which he does with ease.
to me thats still like a boss summon.. and all paths of pain along with kabuto/ orochimaru vs naruto and jiraiya with no boss summons, nor rs , and no swamp and according to you no kyubbi transformations couldnt be any more unbalanced.. seriusly?

it might as well be kakashi, gai, and god vs tenten

[SageoftheSixPaths]

to me thats still like a boss summon.. and all paths of pain along with kabuto/ orochimaru vs naruto and jiraiya with no boss summons, nor rs , and no swamp and according to you no kyubbi transformations couldnt be any more unbalanced.. seriusly?

it might as well be kakashi, gai, and god vs tenten
How is it a boss summon? Boss summons are only animal based summons that are massive in scale and power. Animal Path's animal summons are boss summons. Animal Path himself is not.

Besides, like I said, even with just Nagato on his side, Kabuto wins this with ease. He's easily the same speed as Jiraiya/ Naruto, and he's got more endurance/durability than either one of them. Holding them off for a few seconds while Nagato performs either CT or CST is an incredibly simple task for him.

EDIT: Also, you're the one who picked Team Sage Mode, so complaining about the matchup isn't really the best idea. xD

[Sephiroth]

ok question sixxy.....How in teh heck does he get the bodys??? He needs Bodys for all teh paths of Pain and hes been dead so that means no bodys for Nagato

[SageoftheSixPaths]

ok question sixxy.....How in teh heck does he get the bodys??? He needs Bodys for all teh paths of Pain and hes been dead so that means no bodys for Nagato
And like I said, that doesn't matter. Nagato alone can beat both Jiraiya and Naruto. Also, Kabuto has a scroll with multiple corpses within it that he carries around for research, if you want your bodies.

[tanduhman]

And like I said, that doesn't matter. Nagato alone can beat both Jiraiya and Naruto. Also, Kabuto has a scroll with multiple corpses within it that he carries around for research, if you want your bodies.
the point is that I will debate sm naruto +sm jiraiya vs nagato and kabuto... but debating that with all of the paths is rediculous.. you saying that it doesnt matter simply doesnt matter to me im trying to focus on the point of the paths first.

[SageoftheSixPaths]

the point is that I will debate sm naruto +sm jiraiya vs nagato and kabuto... but debating that with all of the paths is rediculous.. you saying that it doesnt matter simply doesnt matter to me im trying to focus on the point of the paths first.
Obviously if it were Kabuto, Nagato, and all 6 Paths then Team SM has less than no chance. As for the Paths being involved in this fight, there is nothing against it in the OP. It simply states that there are no boss summons, and Kabuto gets one Edo Tensei summon of his choice right from the get go. I chose Nagato, who summons the Paths.

The Paths are clearly NOT boss summons, unless you can find some sort of similarity between Naraka and Gamabunta that puts them in the same category.

With that said, there is nothing that says the Paths can't be summoned, and Kabuto can easily hold off Team SM for that duration of time. Nagato has all of the Jutsu that the 6 Paths have, and as a result can summon them freely. Once they are summoned, Team Sage Mode is done. They have neither the time nor manpower to fight 7 enemies at once (Nagato would need to stay back to control the Paths), all of whom are S-Ranked Ninja or HIGHER.

[tanduhman]

yes I know all of this.. for now Im going to pm jin about the summons or not..

but if you think about reverse summonings.. when ma summoned naruto, basically as a boss summon or summon in general back to kanoha.. thats like summoning.

because a summon is summoning another being from a different area.

[SageoftheSixPaths]

yes I know all of this.. for now Im going to pm jin about the summons or not..

but if you think about reverse summonings.. when ma summoned naruto, basically as a boss summon or summon in general back to kanoha.. thats like summoning.

because a summon is summoning another being from a different area.
Summoning is vastly different from reverse summoning and boss summons.

Summoning Jutsu are Time/Space Jutsu. Ma warped Naruto through space to the toad training grounds using Reverse Summoning. All she did to send Naruto back to Konoha was to release the summon on him, thereby sending him back to his prior location in Konoha. She was only able to do this due to Naruto's contract with the Toads, as they were able to use a Summoning Jutsu on Naruto in the same way Naruto could with them.

However, Ma and Pa are the only two toads who have shown the ability to use a Reverse Summon. Actually, they're the only ones, PERIOD.

With this in mind, a Reverse Summoning is actually the exact opposite of Summoning, as it switches the roles of those who are a part of the contract.

That means that Reverse Summoning is in no way another version of Boss Summoning, save that they're both Time/Space Jutsu. Boss Summoning in and of itself is separate from normal summons in that it requires a much more binding contract, massive chakra use, and the ability to work with/ control the summon.

Boss Summons =/= Summons =/= Reverse Summons

[tanduhman]

Summoning is vastly different from reverse summoning and boss summons.

Summoning Jutsu are Time/Space Jutsu. Ma warped Naruto through space to the toad training grounds using Reverse Summoning. All she did to send Naruto back to Konoha was to release the summon on him, thereby sending him back to his prior location in Konoha. She was only able to do this due to Naruto's contract with the Toads, as they were able to use a Summoning Jutsu on Naruto in the same way Naruto could with them.

However, Ma and Pa are the only two toads who have shown the ability to use a Reverse Summon. Actually, they're the only ones, PERIOD.

With this in mind, a Reverse Summoning is actually the exact opposite of Summoning, as it switches the roles of those who are a part of the contract.

That means that Reverse Summoning is in no way another version of Boss Summoning, save that they're both Time/Space Jutsu. Boss Summoning in and of itself is separate from normal summons in that it requires a much more binding contract, massive chakra use, and the ability to work with/ control the summon.

Boss Summons =/= Summons =/= Reverse Summons
yah but it has some qualities of the other.. and really anyone would basically consider the 6 paths of pain like bosses. not animals no, but in a sense of power.

Your argument that pain has the bodies is that kabuto kept the bodies? Doesnt mean that the bodies are in the shape for fighting. If they are dead than there could be destroyed limbs etc.

If this match is a two on two than thats what I will debate it as. Otherwise its lopsided like a donkey.

Your argument is mainly that nagato can win with CT. I will admit there is nothing to counter the jutsu at hand, but its more of the point that CT takes alot of prep time, and luckily everyone knows that Jiraiya, and Naruto STARTING IN SM are extremely fast.. up in the high tier in speed. The distance of 350 meters is merely only around 3 1/2 football fields which would take my team seconds to cross, and blitz your team.

Yes nagato has shown close speed feats but he wont be able to prep his jutsu in close combat, while he is occupied up the ying yang with two sm characters with the strength to toss massive toad statues like ping pong balls.

We both know that kabuto is too slow to keep up with the feats that he has shown and the only actual threatoning jutsu he has is sea of snakes which can be countered in multiple ways. Naruto in sage mode using great ball rasengan has the radius to take out pains summons and fling them into the air.. with that amount of strength it should easily be able to cycle through countless snakes, and finish them off. not to mention jiraiyas own fire varients that he can also throw into play.

Kabuto will go down fast, you are right that orochimaru kept jiraiya busy on his own, but was jiraiya in sage mode when they fought? the awnswer is no.. showing how jiraiya hence in sage mode could own oro with his overall better speedfeats, and hence showing how kabuto is subfodder, and featless in this match. he really doesnt have much to counter greatball rasengan.

without prep time for CT.. nagato loses to sm naruto and sm jiraiya in close quarters combat.

[SageoftheSixPaths]

yah but it has some qualities of the other.. and really anyone would basically consider the 6 paths of pain like bosses. not animals no, but in a sense of power.

Your argument that pain has the bodies is that kabuto kept the bodies? Doesnt mean that the bodies are in the shape for fighting. If they are dead than there could be destroyed limbs etc.

If this match is a two on two than thats what I will debate it as. Otherwise its lopsided like a donkey.

Your argument is mainly that nagato can win with CT. I will admit there is nothing to counter the jutsu at hand, but its more of the point that CT takes alot of prep time, and luckily everyone knows that Jiraiya, and Naruto STARTING IN SM are extremely fast.. up in the high tier in speed. The distance of 350 meters is merely only around 3 1/2 football fields which would take my team seconds to cross, and blitz your team.

Yes nagato has shown close speed feats but he wont be able to prep his jutsu in close combat, while he is occupied up the ying yang with two sm characters with the strength to toss massive toad statues like ping pong balls.

We both know that kabuto is too slow to keep up with the feats that he has shown and the only actual threatoning jutsu he has is sea of snakes which can be countered in multiple ways. Naruto in sage mode using great ball rasengan has the radius to take out pains summons and fling them into the air.. with that amount of strength it should easily be able to cycle through countless snakes, and finish them off. not to mention jiraiyas own fire varients that he can also throw into play.

Kabuto will go down fast, you are right that orochimaru kept jiraiya busy on his own, but was jiraiya in sage mode when they fought? the awnswer is no.. showing how jiraiya hence in sage mode could own oro with his overall better speedfeats, and hence showing how kabuto is subfodder, and featless in this match. he really doesnt have much to counter greatball rasengan.

without prep time for CT.. nagato loses to sm naruto and sm jiraiya in close quarters combat.


It has qualities, yes, but water has some of the same qualities as air. That doesn't make them the same thing. As for the Paths being Boss Summons, it's your opinion vs the definition of Boss Summons being gargantuan animal summons. Considering the universally accepted concept of Boss Summons>Your word, I'm going to go with that.

Kabuto has a scroll with multiple cadavers available for summoning within it. The bodies are preserved and perfectly fine. Also, Edo Tensei automatically regenerates anything that it resurrects.

For the sake of the debate, 2 on 2 it is. I don't want to debate a one sided battle, though I do kind of have to bring up the point that YOU were the one who chose Team SM without considering the possibility of the 6 Paths of Pain. That's kind of your fault to begin with. I'll handicap myself to get a decent debate in, though.

CT takes almost no prep time. The only time Deva Path needed to perform CT was the cool down time after he had used CST. Both Jutsu are performed almost immediately upon activation, though they drain a large amount of chakra and have a recharge count. Kabuto gets Orochimaru's feats and moves, making him supersonic with ease. Jiraiya and Naruto have both been calculated as supersonic as well. There will be no blitzing in the slightest.

You ignored the earlier argument I made about Kabuto easily being able to fend them off for the short amount of time it takes to use CT or CST. Sea of Snakes or Hydra both constitute an incredibly simple defense against Sage Mode, as well as Kabuto's simple close combat capabilities.

Again, Orochimaru was easily supersonic. This extends to Kabuto, making him just as fast as Team SM. Also, Hydra has MASSIVE tanking capabilities that could easily take any Rasengan variant short of FRS, which is banned. Combine that with the medical Ninjutsu Kabuto knows that make it almost impossible to beat him at close range or to KO him, and it just makes him the biggest tank in the series with ease (save Kyuubi and the such).

We don't know if Jiraiya was in SM when he fought Orochimaru. The fight was offscreen and all we saw was Orochimaru without a scratch on him gloating over a beaten Jiraiya. He had SM at that time, but whether or not he used it is COMPLETELY unknown. Therefore, that's an invalid argument. In the Sannin fight (with Tsunade) Jiraiya was injured and didn't do anything aside from summon Gamabunta, so that doesn't even really count as him fighting Orochimaru. Again, an invalid fight to draw conclusions from. All we know about Orochimaru is that he beat Jiraiya without a scratch on him, and that says something.

As for better speed feats, what's better than his fight with Sasuke while he was in his weakest state, or the fight against Hiruzen, or completely owning Tsunade with no arms, or his fight against KN4? Orochimaru has more feats and better feats than Jiraiya when it comes to speed. Even Naruto hasn't shown the same combat speed that Orochimaru has, save for Frog Kata techniques. Even then, it's a close call, and they're still at best only even.

Greatball Rasengan is easily tanked by base Kabuto. He took a direct hit from a normal Rasengan and was fine with a few seconds of healing. Tsunade's punches are arguably building buster in strength, which is on par with Greatball Rasengan. That said, Orochimaru took dozens to hundreds of rapidfire Tsunade punches and didn't bat an eye. He just got up and smirked. When you combine THAT kind of tanking ability with him getting CUT IN HALF by KN4 you've got an uber tank. Combine that with Oral Rebirth, super uber tank. Combine that with Hydra and healing, well, you get the picture.

Without prep time for CT, Nagato uses Shinra Tensei to blow Team SM a few miles away while he takes all the time he needs. A normal Shinra Tensei sent 3 Boss Summons flyng for miles. Against two opponents who are about a hundred times smaller, they'd sail clear to the next village. If that's not a ring out win, then it at the very least offers more time than Nagato could ever ask for to use CT.

Also, Nagato has Gedo Mizo, which attacks at easily supersonic speed and has multiple tendrils. If that doesn't keep Team SM on their toes, nothing will.

[tanduhman]

It has qualities, yes, but water has some of the same qualities as air. That doesn't make them the same thing. As for the Paths being Boss Summons, it's your opinion vs the definition of Boss Summons being gargantuan animal summons. Considering the universally accepted concept of Boss Summons>Your word, I'm going to go with that.

Kabuto has a scroll with multiple cadavers available for summoning within it. The bodies are preserved and perfectly fine. Also, Edo Tensei automatically regenerates anything that it resurrects.

For the sake of the debate, 2 on 2 it is. I don't want to debate a one sided battle, though I do kind of have to bring up the point that YOU were the one who chose Team SM without considering the possibility of the 6 Paths of Pain. That's kind of your fault to begin with. I'll handicap myself to get a decent debate in, though.

CT takes almost no prep time. The only time Deva Path needed to perform CT was the cool down time after he had used CST. Both Jutsu are performed almost immediately upon activation, though they drain a large amount of chakra and have a recharge count. Kabuto gets Orochimaru's feats and moves, making him supersonic with ease. Jiraiya and Naruto have both been calculated as supersonic as well. There will be no blitzing in the slightest.

You ignored the earlier argument I made about Kabuto easily being able to fend them off for the short amount of time it takes to use CT or CST. Sea of Snakes or Hydra both constitute an incredibly simple defense against Sage Mode, as well as Kabuto's simple close combat capabilities.

Again, Orochimaru was easily supersonic. This extends to Kabuto, making him just as fast as Team SM. Also, Hydra has MASSIVE tanking capabilities that could easily take any Rasengan variant short of FRS, which is banned. Combine that with the medical Ninjutsu Kabuto knows that make it almost impossible to beat him at close range or to KO him, and it just makes him the biggest tank in the series with ease (save Kyuubi and the such).

We don't know if Jiraiya was in SM when he fought Orochimaru. The fight was offscreen and all we saw was Orochimaru without a scratch on him gloating over a beaten Jiraiya. He had SM at that time, but whether or not he used it is COMPLETELY unknown. Therefore, that's an invalid argument. In the Sannin fight (with Tsunade) Jiraiya was injured and didn't do anything aside from summon Gamabunta, so that doesn't even really count as him fighting Orochimaru. Again, an invalid fight to draw conclusions from. All we know about Orochimaru is that he beat Jiraiya without a scratch on him, and that says something.

As for better speed feats, what's better than his fight with Sasuke while he was in his weakest state, or the fight against Hiruzen, or completely owning Tsunade with no arms, or his fight against KN4? Orochimaru has more feats and better feats than Jiraiya when it comes to speed. Even Naruto hasn't shown the same combat speed that Orochimaru has, save for Frog Kata techniques. Even then, it's a close call, and they're still at best only even.

Greatball Rasengan is easily tanked by base Kabuto. He took a direct hit from a normal Rasengan and was fine with a few seconds of healing. Tsunade's punches are arguably building buster in strength, which is on par with Greatball Rasengan. That said, Orochimaru took dozens to hundreds of rapidfire Tsunade punches and didn't bat an eye. He just got up and smirked. When you combine THAT kind of tanking ability with him getting CUT IN HALF by KN4 you've got an uber tank. Combine that with Oral Rebirth, super uber tank. Combine that with Hydra and healing, well, you get the picture.

Without prep time for CT, Nagato uses Shinra Tensei to blow Team SM a few miles away while he takes all the time he needs. A normal Shinra Tensei sent 3 Boss Summons flyng for miles. Against two opponents who are about a hundred times smaller, they'd sail clear to the next village. If that's not a ring out win, then it at the very least offers more time than Nagato could ever ask for to use CT.

Also, Nagato has Gedo Mizo, which attacks at easily supersonic speed and has multiple tendrils. If that doesn't keep Team SM on their toes, nothing will.

What? so basically your saying that kabuto, because he knows most of orochimarus jutsu.. now out of nowhere is able to keep up with the speed of an SM Naruto? dont make me laugh. Just because he has some of orochimarus abilities doesnt mean that he suddenly has orochimarus body structure to the point where his body is flexible, and can stretch. Thats one thing he does not have, and has not shown so no, he cannot tank nearly as much as orochimaru can tank. He still has his good ol weak kabuto like body.

And your saying that kabutos original form had good tanking abilities? Yah since a tiny rasengan created by a kid naruto basically obliterated him to the point where he could barely move. What makes you think his body could possibly withstand that of a great ball rasengan in sage mode? my point is that kabuto would most likely die upon impact. This is still kabuto were talking about not orochimaru, all hes got is his jutsu not entire body transformations.

And of course kabuto hasnt shown any speed feats coming close to that of an SM naruto.. saying that he does is highly exxagerated.

Although I will admit that your sea of snakes argument as a defense is well thought even though it can still be countered with a great ball rasengan by naruto while jiraiya simply runs around to the flank while kabuto is immobilized by his own jutsu and finishes him off with a rasengan varient of his own... A large CT does to take prep time! a minor one may not but a large ball busting CT thats able to destroy a village took him some time. Just because he may seem supersonic doesnt mean that hes anywhere close to the higher supersonic speed that is of SM, and we still have yet to see actual feats of kabuto having better speed.

Naruto is able to make a few shadow clones while in sm which gives my team the advantage. For if your team has no idea which the real naruto is than how are they able to defend from multiple characters in the speed of SM? you really think kabuto is going to be able to keep up with that? I doubt it.

Again how is nagato going to use shinra tensei in close combat? will he really use it with naruto right in his face? and jiraiya right behind him as well? not to mention shadow clones to his left, and right? thats only putting himself at risk. Unless kabuto uses sea of snakes IN A DENSE FOREST right off the bat than jiraiya and SM naruto have an obvius blitz. kabuto cant use that jutsu if jiraiya is right in his face either.

[SageoftheSixPaths]

What? so basically your saying that kabuto, because he knows most of orochimarus jutsu.. now out of nowhere is able to keep up with the speed of an SM Naruto? dont make me laugh. Just because he has some of orochimarus abilities doesnt mean that he suddenly has orochimarus body structure to the point where his body is flexible, and can stretch. Thats one thing he does not have, and has not shown so no, he cannot tank nearly as much as orochimaru can tank. He still has his good ol weak kabuto like body.

And your saying that kabutos original form had good tanking abilities? Yah since a tiny rasengan created by a kid naruto basically obliterated him to the point where he could barely move. What makes you think his body could possibly withstand that of a great ball rasengan in sage mode? my point is that kabuto would most likely die upon impact. This is still kabuto were talking about not orochimaru, all hes got is his jutsu not entire body transformations.

And of course kabuto hasnt shown any speed feats coming close to that of an SM naruto.. saying that he does is highly exxagerated.

Although I will admit that your sea of snakes argument as a defense is well thought even though it can still be countered with a great ball rasengan by naruto while jiraiya simply runs around to the flank while kabuto is immobilized by his own jutsu and finishes him off with a rasengan varient of his own... A large CT does to take prep time! a minor one may not but a large ball busting CT thats able to destroy a village took him some time. Just because he may seem supersonic doesnt mean that hes anywhere close to the higher supersonic speed that is of SM, and we still have yet to see actual feats of kabuto having better speed.

Naruto is able to make a few shadow clones while in sm which gives my team the advantage. For if your team has no idea which the real naruto is than how are they able to defend from multiple characters in the speed of SM? you really think kabuto is going to be able to keep up with that? I doubt it.

Again how is nagato going to use shinra tensei in close combat? will he really use it with naruto right in his face? and jiraiya right behind him as well? not to mention shadow clones to his left, and right? thats only putting himself at risk. Unless kabuto uses sea of snakes IN A DENSE FOREST right off the bat than jiraiya and SM naruto have an obvius blitz. kabuto cant use that jutsu if jiraiya is right in his face either.
Alright, then I'll just make you read the OP again.

"Kabuto has all the abilities/feats of Orochimaru that we have seen..."

Directly from the OP. Kabuto has Orochimaru's abilities, including his Taijutsu, durability, and speed feats. Also, Orochimaru's body manipulation is a JUTSU, which Kabuto NOW HAS. So yes, he can twist and stretch his body.

A tiny Rasengan? Are you talking about the same Rasengan that blew a hole the size of a Mini Van through several feet of steel on a water tower? Oh, yeah, that's not powerful AT ALL. Kabuto took a DIRECT HIT from it, was down for a few seconds, healed, and got right back up. A Rasengan from Naruto had even Kakashi admitting that one hit would be all it took for him to be KOd. As for taking a SM Rasengan, I've already said that Orochimaru's tanking feats from his Tsunade fight and KN4 fight coupled with Kabuto's already impressive tanking/healing abilities makes him possibly the biggest tank in the entire Naruto series. A Great Ball Rasengan isn't anything to sweat about for him. And, once again, HE HAS HIS BODY ABSORBED, ALL HIS JUTSU, ALL HIS ABILITIES, AND ALL HIS FEATS. So he's basically Orochimaru, but better.

Again, Orochimaru has those feats, which I've already stated, so now Kabuto does too.

Sea of Snakes takes up an MASSIVE amount of space. Jiraiya isn't getting around it at all, unless he can suddenly fly. Also, you're ignoring my argument involving the Eight Branches Technique, which gives Kabuto the ability to both cover a massive amount of space, but attack and defend like a champ. As for CT, show me proof that it needed prep time. Deva himself said that CST had a cooldown time, and he was just waiting for it to end. The second it ended, he CTd Naruto's ass. Also, Deva easily kept pace with SM Naruto in their fight. I've already established multiple times that Kabuto, with Orochimaru speed feats, is at the same level of speed as Deva and Team SM.

Naruto can make 5 SM clones. 3 are used to prolong SM, and two can be used for combat. The clones themselves, however, are nothing special. It's a piece of cake to take down a clone. Even Preta managed to beat one. Unless Naruto wants to give up almost all his SM time limit for the sake of having numbers, 2 clones won't do ANYTHING in this fight.

Shinra Tensei in close combat? Really? Dude, Deva sent Choji and his dad FLYING from only a foot away with ease. Nagato>Deva. Deva is only 1/6 of Nagato's abilities, if even that. Not only can Nagato absorb any Jutsu Team SM tries to use on him, but he can also use all of the Path's other powers at will. As for being surrounded, how are all of those clones and both SM characters going to get past Kabuto, let alone sneak up on Nagato to the point where he can't do anything? You've ignored several of my replies as to how Nagato can defend himself, such as Gedo Mezo and the Paths' Jutsu. A simple Shinra Tensei at the ground beneath him sends Nagato flying (literally, he can fly that way) out of harm's way in less time than it takes Jiraiya to wind back for a punch. Nagato can hold his own in close combat, though he won't have to due to Kabuto being able to defend for as long as CT takes to use.

[tanduhman]

Alright, then I'll just make you read the OP again.

"Kabuto has all the abilities/feats of Orochimaru that we have seen..."

Directly from the OP. Kabuto has Orochimaru's abilities, including his Taijutsu, durability, and speed feats. Also, Orochimaru's body manipulation is a JUTSU, which Kabuto NOW HAS. So yes, he can twist and stretch his body.

A tiny Rasengan? Are you talking about the same Rasengan that blew a hole the size of a Mini Van through several feet of steel on a water tower? Oh, yeah, that's not powerful AT ALL. Kabuto took a DIRECT HIT from it, was down for a few seconds, healed, and got right back up. A Rasengan from Naruto had even Kakashi admitting that one hit would be all it took for him to be KOd. As for taking a SM Rasengan, I've already said that Orochimaru's tanking feats from his Tsunade fight and KN4 fight coupled with Kabuto's already impressive tanking/healing abilities makes him possibly the biggest tank in the entire Naruto series. A Great Ball Rasengan isn't anything to sweat about for him. And, once again, HE HAS HIS BODY ABSORBED, ALL HIS JUTSU, ALL HIS ABILITIES, AND ALL HIS FEATS. So he's basically Orochimaru, but better.

Again, Orochimaru has those feats, which I've already stated, so now Kabuto does too.

Sea of Snakes takes up an MASSIVE amount of space. Jiraiya isn't getting around it at all, unless he can suddenly fly. Also, you're ignoring my argument involving the Eight Branches Technique, which gives Kabuto the ability to both cover a massive amount of space, but attack and defend like a champ. As for CT, show me proof that it needed prep time. Deva himself said that CST had a cooldown time, and he was just waiting for it to end. The second it ended, he CTd Naruto's ass. Also, Deva easily kept pace with SM Naruto in their fight. I've already established multiple times that Kabuto, with Orochimaru speed feats, is at the same level of speed as Deva and Team SM.

Naruto can make 5 SM clones. 3 are used to prolong SM, and two can be used for combat. The clones themselves, however, are nothing special. It's a piece of cake to take down a clone. Even Preta managed to beat one. Unless Naruto wants to give up almost all his SM time limit for the sake of having numbers, 2 clones won't do ANYTHING in this fight.

Shinra Tensei in close combat? Really? Dude, Deva sent Choji and his dad FLYING from only a foot away with ease. Nagato>Deva. Deva is only 1/6 of Nagato's abilities, if even that. Not only can Nagato absorb any Jutsu Team SM tries to use on him, but he can also use all of the Path's other powers at will. As for being surrounded, how are all of those clones and both SM characters going to get past Kabuto, let alone sneak up on Nagato to the point where he can't do anything? You've ignored several of my replies as to how Nagato can defend himself, such as Gedo Mezo and the Paths' Jutsu. A simple Shinra Tensei at the ground beneath him sends Nagato flying (literally, he can fly that way) out of harm's way in less time than it takes Jiraiya to wind back for a punch. Nagato can hold his own in close combat, though he won't have to due to Kabuto being able to defend for as long as CT takes to use.

Kabuto has all the abilities/feats of Orochimaru that we have seen
copied and pasted from the bio... he has all of his abilities/feats. ok that makes sense but having orochimarus body is not an ability, nor is it a feat. Kabuto DOES NOT have orochimarus limbs, bones, skin, etc. Orochimaru spent many experiments on himself doing so and kabuto is simply not the same in every way. he can take his jutsu, he can take his sudden speed feats, but he did not take orochimarus legs, nor arms, nor chest, nor eyes, nor ears, nor wang. Atleast I hope not? thatd be weird.

Speed is a feat.. I can get that. But how is orochimaru supersonic again? where is the proof for this statement? i say this because the highest speed ive seen him show was against kn4 where he didnt show proof of breaking the sound barrier nor being unseeable by the human eye? I love how chracters are classified in a speed without these statements proven since to break the sound barrier there would have to be a sinic boom of some sort.. which lee in his fifth gate actually did show and that is why LEE is classified as supersonic. other proofs would be long distances being cleared in seconds which SM naruto has shown the feats of in konoha hence crossing konoha in seconds and raping the asura path without it even reacting in time for defence of itself. feats that orochimaru has failed to show and hence I cannot believe his speed feats. unbeleivableshmuleybuley.

I still think kabuto is too slow.. orochimarus shown speed feats are lame and sea of snakes can yes be countered fast with what ive stated twice now. and are you saying that jiraiya cant run around a large distance in a short amount of time? even though hes classified as supersonic? i beg to differ on that point since he could probably run around in minimal time needed. and its not like kabuto will be expecting it since were in a forest yuh kno..


yes he sent choji and his dad flying in close range... how fast was choji again? 3 m/s? 10 m/s? as to where SM naruto and SM jiraiya are above and beyond 343 m/s? right...

Ill admit yes nagato is very powerfull, he has all of his powers.. and there all great. but I have yet to see him absorb attacks from in front of him, and behind him as well. is this a new jutsu or something?

And your saying that an sm clone isnt much? because asura was able to kill one? oh i guess i didnt know that asura was a pushover all of a sudden since he was able to walk around konoha and rape hundreds of villagers with his bare hands.. yuh know.. but yah sm clones are nothing right? since because of three summoned AVERAGE naruto clones naruto was able to take down kakuzu on his own. yah clones are worthless right? XD Clones surve a purposs of distracting the enemy which is exactly what they will do.. disttract nagato in close range combat while jiraiya and naruto give everything theyve got in close range to killing him.

Nagato being able to fly is yes a problem.. ill admit it.. didnt seem that fast though if u ask me. and gedo mazo.. the jutsu where he summons the statue? is that not a summoning jutsu?

[SageoftheSixPaths]

Kabuto has all the abilities/feats of Orochimaru that we have seen
copied and pasted from the bio... he has all of his abilities/feats. ok that makes sense but having orochimarus body is not an ability, nor is it a feat. Kabuto DOES NOT have orochimarus limbs, bones, skin, etc. Orochimaru spent many experiments on himself doing so and kabuto is simply not the same in every way. he can take his jutsu, he can take his sudden speed feats, but he did not take orochimarus legs, nor arms, nor chest, nor eyes, nor ears, nor wang. Atleast I hope not? thatd be weird.

Speed is a feat.. I can get that. But how is orochimaru supersonic again? where is the proof for this statement? i say this because the highest speed ive seen him show was against kn4 where he didnt show proof of breaking the sound barrier nor being unseeable by the human eye? I love how chracters are classified in a speed without these statements proven since to break the sound barrier there would have to be a sinic boom of some sort.. which lee in his fifth gate actually did show and that is why LEE is classified as supersonic. other proofs would be long distances being cleared in seconds which SM naruto has shown the feats of in konoha hence crossing konoha in seconds and raping the asura path without it even reacting in time for defence of itself. feats that orochimaru has failed to show and hence I cannot believe his speed feats. unbeleivableshmuleybuley.

I still think kabuto is too slow.. orochimarus shown speed feats are lame and sea of snakes can yes be countered fast with what ive stated twice now. and are you saying that jiraiya cant run around a large distance in a short amount of time? even though hes classified as supersonic? i beg to differ on that point since he could probably run around in minimal time needed. and its not like kabuto will be expecting it since were in a forest yuh kno..


yes he sent choji and his dad flying in close range... how fast was choji again? 3 m/s? 10 m/s? as to where SM naruto and SM jiraiya are above and beyond 343 m/s? right...

Ill admit yes nagato is very powerfull, he has all of his powers.. and there all great. but I have yet to see him absorb attacks from in front of him, and behind him as well. is this a new jutsu or something?

And your saying that an sm clone isnt much? because asura was able to kill one? oh i guess i didnt know that asura was a pushover all of a sudden since he was able to walk around konoha and rape hundreds of villagers with his bare hands.. yuh know.. but yah sm clones are nothing right? since because of three summoned AVERAGE naruto clones naruto was able to take down kakuzu on his own. yah clones are worthless right? XD Clones surve a purposs of distracting the enemy which is exactly what they will do.. disttract nagato in close range combat while jiraiya and naruto give everything theyve got in close range to killing him.

Nagato being able to fly is yes a problem.. ill admit it.. didnt seem that fast though if u ask me. and gedo mazo.. the jutsu where he summons the statue? is that not a summoning jutsu?
Dude, I already told you that Orochimaru's body manipulation (twisting, stretching, flexibility, etc.) is a JUTSU. So yes, Kabuto DOES have it. Also, Kabuto has Orochimaru ABSORBED INTO HIS BODY. They combined, meaning that Kabuto is literally Orochimaru and then some. So yes, he DOES have those abilities.

Orochimaru has been proven to be supersonic. His fight against Tsunade, who's been calculated as high tier sonic speed, his fight against Sasuke, who is supersonic with ease, his fight against Hiruzen, who displayed mid tier supersonic speed feats via his Reaper Death Seals, etc. I've already provided the examples you asked for. In his fight against KN4, he was shown to extend his neck alone what appeared to be nearly a mile in a single moment, stab KN4 with Kusanagi, and send KN4 flying for another several hundred meters, all within less than a second or two. Do that math. That gives him supersonic speed with his neck stretching ALONE.

The fact that it's a forest just means it's WORSE for Jiraiya and Naruto. Sea of Snakes can go around bends in trees or thick patches of brush. I can ambush them from literally all sides, and they won't be able to see it coming due to the foliage until it's too late. Yes, they can fend off Sea of Snakes at close range, but considering the long distance starting range and location, Kabuto has plenty of time to use and expand Sea of Snakes to take up the entire area surrounding his and Nagato's position in moments. Team SM won't be able to get close without getting caught in a web of deadly serpents. Fighting their way through that isn't hard for them to do, but it takes time, especially considering the sheer number of snakes. Combine that with something like using Earth Style: Hiding Like a Mole Technique coupled with Chakra Scalpel and Kabuto can slow the two of them down almost indefinitely while Nagato takes his time to prep an attack.

Choji and his dad are admittedly fairly slow. However, in their Human Boulder forms they're faster than the eye can see fairly easily. That said, Deva reacting to that when Choji and his dad were only inches away, stopping them flat in their tracks when they had enough momentum and size to level a building, and then sending them flying while KILLING one of them with the simple force of the Shinra Tensei, well, that's at the very LEAST a sonic reaction time, and easily enough force to send two individuals the size of a normal person flying for a few hundred meters with the force of a battleship being smashed into their face. As for the speed calcs on Team SM, I agree that Naruto has that sort of speed, but Jiraiya's best feat in terms of SM speed is against a supersonic Human Path. That's not enough to give him the same level of speed as Naruto. He's still supersonic, but midish to low low high tier at the very best.

Preta's ability to absorb Jutsu stems from Nagato's own ability to do the same. From behind him, no, but he can form a Jutsu absorbing barrier the size of a Massive Rasengan in a split second. Just have Kabuto cover his back and he's perfectly capable of defending himself.

Took down Kakuzu on his own? Nope. First of all, Kakuzu was already down one heart. Second of all, he beat him through trickery and FRS, which is basically a OHKO on anyone. But that's banned, so your argument is invalid. And you know as well as I do that the entirety of Konoha with the exception of the main characters are fodder. Also, I said PRETA, not Asura. Which is even worse for stating clones are useful, since Preta is the second weakest Path after Naraka. Distractions will do nothing against Kabuto and Nagato. They both have omnidirectional/ dodging abilities that are both fast and have large AoE. I've already stated that Kabuto has Sea of Snakes, massive tanking, Hiding Like a Mole, Eight Branches, etc. I've also stated that Nagato has Gedo Mezo, Shinra Tensei, Jutsu Absorbing Barrier, etc. You have yet to counter any of those moves as either a defense or attack. All you've done is try to disprove Kabuto's speed or Nagato's attacks' agility, despite the fact that I've already proven to you several times over that they can do the things I've said with relative ease.

Flying is not only a problem, but something neither Naruto nor Jiraiya can counter. And not being fast? Deva covered a massive amount of ground with just one Shinra Tensei propulsion. Doing another one while in mid air would let him stay there almost indefinitely. Go look at Chapter 429. Deva flies about a mile into the air in a second with no problem, and he was using a fairly low power version of ST. Once again, there's enough speed and power in that attack to do everything I've said it can.

Gedo Mezo IS a summoning Jutsu, but why does that matter? It's not a living creature. It's just like Sasuke's Lightning Blade Creation. It summons a tool for use. We've been over the fact that if it isn't a Boss Summon, it can be used. Therefore, Gedo Mezo is not only a viable option, but one that Team SM has almost no method of countering. While we're on that same topic, Kabuto can summon multiple Rashamon Gates to surround him and Nagato while they hold off Team SM until CT is ready for use. They can be avoided, but anything short of FRS or a KN4 blast isn't going to break them, neither of which Team SM has in their arsenal for this fight. That means they have to go over, under, or around them. Rashamon Gates are large and block Team SM's view more so than it already is in the forest. You think they'll get to Nagato and Kabuto and be able to beat them with all that going on? Not a chance.

EDIT: I've got good timing. xD

T-minus like, 30 seconds until the 48 hour time limit is reached. I got my last word in. xD

[The 1st Hokage]

I'm sorry to intervene, but orochimaru's technique that he used to bend and twist and such is called Soft Physique Modification and it was one of his jutsu's.

[SageoftheSixPaths]

Nah, it's cool. And I said that it was a Jutsu. Just forgot to post the name. Thanks, though.

Anyways, debate's over. Judging shall commence once somebody logs on to do it. xD

[Jinchiruuki]

This debate match is over.. I will have my judges take a peek asap.

[Space Cowboy Sasori]

Oh man, this is soooo long.

[Lady Tsunade]

*sigh* My thoughts exactly Sasori. :/ All well, more work for us Lol

[SageoftheSixPaths]

I already apologized a few days ago in the other thread. xD

[Lady Tsunade]

Lawl .Well anyway. Ive made my decision. Im quite sure Sasori and Jin will agree with me on it too.

[Jinchiruuki]

I declare Sage and Yori the victors..Sage pretty much owned this thread xD