Shikamaru + Kakashi Vs. Orochimaru

[Shinra_Tensei_18]

Location: Where Kakashi tried to seal Saskue's Curse Mark

Restrictions: No Mangeckyou sharingan for Kakashi, No Summoning for Orochimaru.

Distance: 15 meters

Acceptions: Orochimaru is Unsealed



GO!

[Nyruss]

Orochimaru no contest. At all. Ever.

He's stronger, smarter, faster, more durable and has more and better jutsus than noth of them put together.

[Shinra_Tensei_18]

Orochimaru no contest. At all. Ever.

He's stronger, smarter, faster, more durable and has more and better jutsus than noth of them put together. I doubt Orochimaru has an I.Q. over 200.

[Akatsuki X]

I doubt Orochimaru has an I.Q. over 200.

I agree, Orochimaru isn't smarter then Shikamaru.

But he still takes this,
the only way Kakashi and Shika could win is with Kumai,
and you restricted that. >_>

[Nyruss]

I doubt Shikamaru has an IQ over two hundred.

Orochimaru's intelligence feats take a big smelly dump on Shikamaru's, which are limited to claiming he has every aspect of a fight planned out just before he gets the crap beat out of him.

Orochimaru has mastered any number of jutsus, created dozens of his own, started his own village, succesfully manipulated the Sand into attack the Leaf, is an expert geneticist, the list goes on.

So yes, Orochimaru is smarter than Suckamaru.

[Vivi]

I doubt Orochimaru has an I.Q. over 200.

A irrelevant Fact.

Even with Shika's Intelligence he loses to the Majority of the Characters with Feats.

You know, a Omniscient Person loses if they lack in Durability or Power.

IQ alone is meaningless in Battle when your Opponent is too much to take.

[Shinra_Tensei_18]

You guys are all forgetting Kakashi. I think It would be pretty close. Shikamaru could plan out a strategy while Kakashi fights Orochimaru. I think Kakashi is very close in power to Orochimaru. (and so does the Author because in the third Data Book he gave Kakashi a 34.5 out of 40 and Orochimaru a 35 out of 40.) Once Shikamaru got his plan ready (which would only take a minute or so) I think It would be over with Team Shadow Sharingan winning.

[Tourune]

Oro took on 4 tailed Naruto so i dont think these would hurt him

[Nyruss]

You guys are all forgetting Kakashi. No we're not. Kakashi is garbage except for Kamui, which he can't use.

think It would be pretty close.Only in the sense that Orochimaru wins literally without trying.


Shikamaru could plan out a strategy while Kakashi fights Orochimaru. And then Orochimaru, being VASTLY smarter than Shikamaru, effortlessly picks Shikamaru's pathetic little strategy apart while killing Kakashi without trying.

I think Kakashi is very close in power to Orochimaru And you're wrong.

(and so does the Author because in the third Data Book he gave Kakashi a 34.5 out of 40 and Orochimaru a 35 out of 40.)Databook is garbage and should not be taken as proof of respective power levels, especially considering that Tsunade is listed as 35 out of 40 when she's FAR weaker than even Orochimaru's weakest form.

Once Shikamaru got his plan ready (which would only take a minute or so) I think It would be over with Orochimaru casually stomping their skulls in.


Agreed.

[Akainu]

Kakashi and Suckimaru gets decapitated.

[e710]

Orochimaru does that snake sword thing and decapitates all of them or snake sea thing. Also Oro is much smarter than Shika, Oro planned out how to get a sharingan before shika even became a ninja and Oro planed an attack on the leaf village that only Pain could top while shika barely manged to figure out Hidan"s ritual and the only smart thing he was good at was the boardgame.

[colorles]

Kakashi could possibly take Oro alone, as he is at least as fast or faster and has better reaction feats, and better clones and feints such as raiton clone. although oro has snake attacks and such, Kakashi has superior reaction speed and footspeed (although Oro is fast as well), and his tactical prowess is essentially unmatched. still Oro could win, but Kakashi actually very likely has the upperhand now with current feats

[Shinra_Tensei_18]

No we're not. Kakashi is garbage except for Kamui, which he can't use.

Only in the sense that Orochimaru wins literally without trying.


And then Orochimaru, being VASTLY smarter than Shikamaru, effortlessly picks Shikamaru's pathetic little strategy apart while killing Kakashi without trying.

And you're wrong.

Databook is garbage and should not be taken as proof of respective power levels, especially considering that Tsunade is listed as 35 out of 40 when she's FAR weaker than even Orochimaru's weakest form.



Agreed. If your not going to listen to the AUTHOR then i have little more to say to you.

[e710]

Kakashi could possibly take Oro alone, as he is at least as fast or faster and has better reaction feats, and better clones and feints such as raiton clone. although oro has snake attacks and such, Kakashi has superior reaction speed and footspeed (although Oro is fast as well), and his tactical prowess is essentially unmatched. still Oro could win, but Kakashi actually very likely has the upperhand now with current feats


Name me one attack of kakashi's that can greatly damage Oro.

[Nyruss]

If your not going to listen to the AUTHOR then i have little more to say to you.
Good, I don't like you anyway.

[colorles]

Name me one attack of kakashi's that can greatly damage Oro.


raiton clone, Raikiri wolf, Raikiri, anyd clone feints followed by Raikiri, the doton wall/raikiri combo against Deva Pain, the doton underground attack against pain (with the smoke bomb), pretty much anything he did against pain (oro does not have shinra tensei or interconnecting eyesight), water techs for defense (suiton sujinhicki without a water source), Kakashi,s superios speed and reaction abilities with raiton attacks, possibly in taijutsu with kunai/kusurigama, and as i said before, clone feints/doton fakes/raiton variations, and suitons for protection (Kakashi has plenty of chakara for all that with recent feats)

[e710]

raiton clone, Raikiri wolf, Raikiri, anyd clone feints followed by Raikiri, the doton wall/raikiri combo against Deva Pain, the doton underground attack against pain (with the smoke bomb), pretty much anything he did against pain (oro does not have shinra tensei or interconnecting eyesight), water techs for defense (suiton sujinhicki without a water source), Kakashi,s superios speed and reaction abilities with raiton attacks, possibly in taijutsu with kunai/kusurigama, and as i said before, clone feints/doton fakes/raiton variations, and suitons for protection (Kakashi has plenty of chakara for all that with recent feats)

Even if Oro get damage badly he has Oral Rebirth and Kakashi doesn't have enough Chakra do do those attacks multiple times.

[NagatoGod_of_Pain]

Kakashi without Kamui will not stand a chance against Orochimaru. Orochimaru can easily cough up a new body or just connect detached body parts with snakes. He takes out his Kusanagi sword to pierce Kakashi or Shikamaru. If Shikamaru captures Orochimaru in his shadow technique, Orochimaru will just command Kusanagi to kill Shikamaru. Orochimaru can use his wind release jutsu to negate any of Kakashi's lightning based jutsu. Orochimaru then uses any snake techniques to kill him too.

[colorles]

Even if Oro get damage badly he has Oral Rebirth and Kakashi doesn't have enough Chakra do do those attacks multiple times.

yes he does; look to Kakashi vs Hidan and Kakuzu and Kakashi vs Deva and Asura

[Miles Edgeworth]

Kakashi without Kamui has no chance against Orochimaru. None of Kakashi's attacks could even faze Asura Path until Asura decided to tank a full on Lightning Blade, which he only did to protect Deva. Asura still survived it anyway.

Orochimaru should be able to tank the same attacks Asura could. Orochimaru could easily keep up with Kakashi and could Kusanagi him easily.

Shikamaru is fodder in this fight. Without prep he is nothing compared to a Kage level ninja. Even with prep he's not too powerful.

[e710]

yes he does; look to Kakashi vs Hidan and Kakuzu and Kakashi vs Deva and Asura

Oro is one of the best tankers in Naruto and plus Oro will be attacking too. Also Oro took Kn4 attacks.

[colorles]

if Oro gets hit with raiton clone, he is gonna be paralyzed, and he only has a few oral rebirths

and he can not tank a raikiri to the heart

also sword of Kusanagi attacks slashing Kakashi with his kunai defense and clone feints and legendary reaction speed? Kakashi is too fast and too skilled for Oro to simply slice and dice him

[e710]

if Oro gets hit with raiton clone, he is gonna be paralyzed, and he only has a few oral rebirths

and he can not tank a raikiri to the heart

also sword of Kusanagi attacks slashing Kakashi with his kunai defense and clone feints and legendary reaction speed? Kakashi is too fast and too skilled for Oro to simply slice and dice him

Yeah but if Kakashi tries a head on attack with raikiri he will get the snake mouth sword through his skull.

[Miles Edgeworth]

Without Kamui, Kakashi could barely put up a fight with Asura. Orochimaru>Asura and even if Kakashi has a speed advantage he is not blitzing.

[colorles]

Yeah but if Kakashi tries a head on attack with raikiri he will get the snake mouth sword through his skull.

he would use feints and ninjutsu/taijutusu combintations to attack Oro;, followed by raikiri; he is not foolish enough to directly attack

[e710]

he would use feints and ninjutsu/taijutusu combintations to attack Oro;, followed by raikiri; he is not foolish enough to directly attack

Or is he?`:|

[Akatsuki X]

he would use feints and ninjutsu/taijutusu combintations to attack Oro;, followed by raikiri; he is not foolish enough to directly attack

Neither is Orochimaru...

None of his combo's matter,
he has nothing to take Oro out with.

[HiddenRoar]

To colorles: Chapter 70 Page 3

Sure Kakashi's grown from Part 1, but he's still dealing with a Sannin.

[Nyruss]

I don't know what manga you're reading, but it looks to me like Kakashi is calling himself an idiot for even thinking about trying to challenge Orochimaru, who he knows is superior to him in every way.

[colorles]

I don't know what manga you're reading, but it looks to me like Kakashi is calling himself an idiot for even thinking about trying to challenge Orochimaru, who he knows is superior to him in every way.

thats part one, during which Kakashi has been used ever since the Itachi fight to hype other characters, and that has continued into shippuden

and i never said Kakashi would definitively win, only that he has the speed and variety to have a legitiment shot at it. yeah oro is strongs, but
kakashi has alot of variety; he could outmanuever Oro, but just might has a hard time truly finnishing Oro with his regenerative abilities, but Kakashi has some attacks i already listed before that could possiby do it

[J-Sun Tasogare]

If your not going to listen to the AUTHOR then i have little more to say to you.
Kishi is an idiot when it comes with power level. He probably on uses hype and rank for the databooks.

[J-Sun Tasogare]

thats part one, during which Kakashi has been used ever since the Itachi fight to hype other characters, and that has continued into shippuden

and i never said Kakashi would definitively win, only that he has the speed and variety to have a legitiment shot at it. yeah oro is strongs, but
kakashi has alot of variety; he could outmanuever Oro, but just might has a hard time truly finnishing Oro with his regenerative abilities, but Kakashi has some attacks i already listed before that could possiby do it
Eight Branches Technique GG

[Akainu]

Kishi is an idiot when it comes with power level. He probably on uses hype and rank for the databooks.

Kishi is one of the worst Mangakas ever, what do you expect? He is a retarded dumbass in general.

Eight Branches Technique GG

What the hell is that? I'm sorry but I never read the fail Viz translations before, so say it in Japanese please.

[Akatsuki Tsunade]

Finally ORO getting the credit he deserves!

HOWEVER

I agree in the stat that give ORO and Tsunade the same rank!! Each has the own set of skill in which they have mastered!! So STOP Tsunade hateing (looks at dudemister)

AND kakashi is not an idiot.. He cannot take on oro but I wouldnt say he is an idiot at all!

[Vivi]

Kishi is one of the worst Mangakas ever, what do you expect? He is a retarded dumbass in general.



What the hell is that? I'm sorry but I never read the fail Viz translations before, so say it in Japanese please.

Matter of Opinion.

Viz Translation is Art of the Eight Headed Serpent.
Anyhow he means Yamata no Jutsu or as some People call it Hydra.

Not gonna work here though unless someone can prove Oro is able to use it without Sasuke.

[Akainu]

Finally ORO getting the credit he deserves!

HOWEVER

I agree in the stat that give ORO and Tsunade the same rank!! Each has the own set of skill in which they have mastered!! So STOP Tsunade hateing (looks at dudemister)

AND kakashi is not an idiot.. He cannot take on oro but I wouldnt say he is an idiot at all!

Just because the Databook says their equal doesn't mean they are.

Oro showed that he is far stronger than Tsunade in every aspect, so screw the Databook, we want manga feats not databook hype.

Databook says Raikage and Konohamaru are equal, would you believe it?

[Akainu]

Matter of Opinion.

Viz Translation is Art of the Eight Headed Serpent.
Anyhow he means Yamata no Jutsu or as some People call it Hydra.

Not gonna work here though unless someone can prove Oro is able to use it without Sasuke.

I don't know who started the Hydra crap but its retarded.

Zetsu know that its the Yamata no Jutsu meaning he must have seen it before.

[Akatsuki Tsunade]

Just because the Databook says their equal doesn't mean they are.

Oro showed that he is far stronger than Tsunade in every aspect, so screw the Databook, we want manga feats not databook hype.

Databook says Raikage and Konohamaru are equal, would you believe it?

just because they have the same number it doesn not make them equal when it comes to fighting in battle...

AND i dont read the Manga so i go by Anime Facts.. and sure databooks every now then.. I know they are not always 100% but at times they can be a useful

[colorles]

so Orochimaru cannot use 'hydra' or whatever its called without Sasuke?

aside from the massive hydra, Oro really has nothing on Kakashi, even without Kamui. Kakashi has the overall speed advantage in multiple ways, has great variety, and does have moves and combo's to ijure oro and can counter all oros attacks with sharigan predictabiltiy and his own taijutsu/ninjutus skills and speed. he also has an ever increasing chakra reserve

[J-Sun Tasogare]

so Orochimaru cannot use 'hydra' or whatever its called without Sasuke?

aside from the massive hydra, Oro really has nothing on Kakashi, even without Kamui. Kakashi has the overall speed advantage in multiple ways, has great variety, and does have moves and combo's to ijure oro and can counter all oros attacks with sharigan predictabiltiy and his own taijutsu/ninjutus skills and speed. he also has an ever increasing chakra reserve
Oro is faster than Kakashi or at least equal xD.
Lake of Snakes GG or Manda GG

[colorles]

Oro is faster than Kakashi or at least equal xD.
Lake of Snakes GG or Manda GG

if anything Kakashi is faster in footspeed, and DEFINATLY faster in reaction speed

clones, doton to hide, suitons wthout water source to block, raikiri wolf; Kakashi can defend himself and counterattack oro

[J-Sun Tasogare]

if anything Kakashi is faster in footspeed, and DEFINATLY faster in reaction speed

clones, doton to hide, suitons wthout water source to block, raikiri wolf; Kakashi can defend himself and counterattack oro
He can only make one Raikiri clone and that uses half his chakra. Other clones won't do crap. Suiton is fire right? I don'y see his measly flame doing anything to Manda who took a Toad Flame Bomb. A raikiri wolf? Wth is that going to do to Manda let alone a A Lake of Snakes?

[Akainu]

Cursed "Failchiha" you never answered my reply.

[Vivi]

so Orochimaru cannot use 'hydra' or whatever its called without Sasuke?


Saying Oro can without him is just a Claim that can't be proven.


Zetsu know that its the Yamata no Jutsu meaning he must have seen it before.

And where is the prove for that?
392 Page 8-9 Itachi said he know's the "feeling" incase you got mixed up.

[colorles]

He can only make one Raikiri clone and that uses half his chakra. Other clones won't do crap. Suiton is fire right? I don'y see his measly flame doing anything to Manda who took a Toad Flame Bomb. A raikiri wolf? Wth is that going to do to Manda let alone a A Lake of Snakes?

raiton clone is not an average clone; since it uses half of Kakashi's chakra, it fights and moves and attacks, and can use jutus's, like the real Kakashi except at 50% chakra; it only was defeated due to link rinnegan visio and a bansho tennin combo. the raiton clone can fight Oro, and if it is even defeated, would then parylize him, and the real Kakashi comes out and attacks. at best Oro can manage oral rebirth. Kakashi has other raitons as well, as well as doton/raiton combos and suitons (water) for defense without a water sorce, and is at least as fast or faster than oro with at least equal or greater melee skills, and definatly bsuprior reaction speed

any snake summons can be countered with doton or raiton, or blocked with suitons or simply avoided with clone feints and speed

manda will be difficult, but Kakashi's 8 ninja dogs can hod it off for a bit (it is 8 dogs), and maybe a raikiri wolf

there is also water dragon

[Vivi]

manda will be difficult, but Kakashi's 8 ninja dogs can hod it off for a bit (it is 8 dogs),


Manda was able to take on Bunta and Katsuyu what are the Dog's gonna do to him?
Not even mentioning the size difference.
And Quality>Quantity.

[colorles]

Manda was able to take on Bunta and Katsuyu what are the Dog's gonna do to him?
Not even mentioning the size difference.
And Quality>Quantity.

ok maybe not, but what of the eight dogs with the aid of occasional Kakashi feints, raikiri wolf, potentially a water dragon combined with raiton chakra (that would be too good to be true for Kishi to come up with)

also, Sharingan genjutsu could potentially control manda (granted Kakashi's sharingan genjutsu is not as great as Itachi's or likely even Sasuke's, he is still potent with it)

it also should be noted that Orochimaru is a master of genjutsu, although nothing Kakashi and his sharingan cant handle

[Vivi]

ok maybe not, but what of the six dogs with the aid of occasional Kakashi feints, raikiri wolf, potentially a water dragon combined with raiton chakra (that would be too good to be true for Kishi to come up with)

also, Sharingan genjutsu could potentially control manda (granted Kakashi's sharingan genjutsu is not as great as Itachi's or likely even Sasuke's, he is still potent with it)

it also should be noted that Orochimaru is a master of genjutsu, although nothing Kakashi and his sharingan cant handle

I love to know what makes you think the Nin-Dog's can even remotely harm Manda.Not that it matters since he's not allowed to summon.

Lightning Hound was repelled by Pain.Who know's the damage it deals when it hits.

Water Dragon requires a kinda large Water Source and from what I remember there isn't one in the Location given by the OP.

[colorles]

I love to know what makes you think the Nin-Dog's can even remotely harm Manda.Not that it matters since he's not allowed to summon.

Lightning Hound was repelled by Pain.Who know's the damage it deals when it hits.

Water Dragon requires a kinda large Water Source and from what I remember there isn't one in the Location given by the OP.

cause theres 8 of them and they work well together; they could at least stall manda, maybe not trully defeat

raikiri wolf is at least as powerful as raikiri, if not more powerful due to its greater size and speed and such

water dragon is not somthing Kakashi spams, unlike water wall, but with his seal spead and his ability to do water jutsu without a water source with recent feats, it could be a factor against manda and oro, especialy if he combo's it with raiton

[Vivi]

cause theres 8 of them and they work well together; they could at least stall manda, maybe not trully defeat

raikiri wolf is at least as powerful as raikiri, if not more powerful due to its greater size and speed and such

water dragon is not somthing Kakashi spams, unlike water wall, but with his seal spead and his ability to do water jutsu without a water source with recent feats, it could be a factor against manda and oro, especialy if he combo's it with raiton

Being greater in number's mean's nothing when your opponent is too Powerful.
Also how will they stall him?Their best attack feat is stopping Zabuza.
Imma leave it at that cause Manda isnt allowed anyway,

It's greater yes.Speed I dunno.
But it doesn't matter cause it won't change the Fact it's effects are still unknown.

Oro won't go down with such a little combo especially when he could just use Hiru Bansho and distract with a Shadow Clone.

[J-Sun Tasogare]

Kishi is one of the worst Mangakas ever, what do you expect? He is a retarded dumbass in general.



What the hell is that? I'm sorry but I never read the fail Viz translations before, so say it in Japanese please.
Okay good for you.

okay good for you.

[colorles]

Being greater in number's mean's nothing when your opponent is too Powerful.
Also how will they stall him?Their best attack feat is stopping Zabuza.
Imma leave it at that cause Manda isnt allowed anyway,

It's greater yes.Speed I dunno.
But it doesn't matter cause it won't change the Fact it's effects are still unknown.

Oro won't go down with such a little combo especially when he could just use Hiru Bansho and distract with a Shadow Clone.

maybe

its definately fast, and likely more powerful than normal raikiri, although it could just parylize. who knows (well Kishi)

i never said oro will go down easy, but on page 1 i listed manybpotential moves and combo's that could severyl trouble Orochimaru


'raiton clone, Raikiri wolf, Raikiri, anyd clone feints followed by Raikiri, the doton wall/raikiri combo against Deva Pain, the doton underground attack against pain (with the smoke bomb), pretty much anything he did against pain (oro does not have shinra tensei or interconnecting eyesight), water techs for defense (suiton sujinhicki without a water source), Kakashi,s superios speed and reaction abilities with raiton attacks, possibly in taijutsu with kunai/kusurigama, and as i said before, clone feints/doton fakes/raiton variations, and suitons for protection (Kakashi has plenty of chakara for all that with recent feats)' etc

[Konoha'sGreenThunder]

ok maybe not, but what of the eight dogs with the aid of occasional Kakashi feints, raikiri wolf, potentially a water dragon combined with raiton chakra (that would be too good to be true for Kishi to come up with)

also, Sharingan genjutsu could potentially control manda (granted Kakashi's sharingan genjutsu is not as great as Itachi's or likely even Sasuke's, he is still potent with it)

it also should be noted that Orochimaru is a master of genjutsu, although nothing Kakashi and his sharingan cant handle

I'm fairly certain the only genjutsu Kakashi has ever used is Hell Viewing Technique. It wasn't used with his sharigan, and it's just a D-rank jutsu that Shippuden Sakura and Naruto saw through/broke. He has yet to show any genjutsu usage with his sharingan.

[colorles]

I'm fairly certain the only genjutsu Kakashi has ever used is Hell Viewing Technique. It wasn't used with his sharigan, and it's just a D-rank jutsu that Shippuden Sakura and Naruto saw through/broke. He has yet to show any genjutsu usage with his sharingan.

in chapter 450 somthing, Kakashi uses sharingan genjutsu on two anbu, leaving them unconcious

[Nyruss]

He also used an unnamed mind control Genjutsu on Zabuza.

[Akainu]

He also used "Shittygan omg look at me I want attention because I have fancy pink eyes" Genjutsu which he used on Team 7 and Zabuza and basically everyone else.

[Slack 40]

You guys are all forgetting Kakashi. I think It would be pretty close. Shikamaru could plan out a strategy while Kakashi fights Orochimaru. I think Kakashi is very close in power to Orochimaru. (and so does the Author because in the third Data Book he gave Kakashi a 34.5 out of 40 and Orochimaru a 35 out of 40.) Once Shikamaru got his plan ready (which would only take a minute or so) I think It would be over with Team Shadow Sharingan winning.
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/7227/lolwhuttranslated384267dn3.jpg

Orochimaru uses one move. Sea of Snakes which makes hundreds of snakes with their own kusanagi swords. once he uses the jutsu and pukes out thousands of snakes they will burry Kakashi and Shikamaru they can't dodge all the snakes and if they try to orochimaru will then get them with an extended kusanagi sword. GG

[colorles]

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/7227/lolwhuttranslated384267dn3.jpg

Orochimaru uses one move. Sea of Snakes which makes hundreds of snakes with their own kusanagi swords. once he uses the jutsu and pukes out thousands of snakes they will burry Kakashi and Shikamaru they can't dodge all the snakes and if they try to orochimaru will then get them with an extended kusanagi sword. GG

dont underestimate the shadow sharingan. i have already explained howKakashi can counter oros jutsu's; with his own

read the thread before posting you talking pear

[Miles Edgeworth]

just because they have the same number it doesn not make them equal when it comes to fighting in battle...

AND i dont read the Manga so i go by Anime Facts.. and sure databooks every now then.. I know they are not always 100% but at times they can be a useful

Naruto anime is non-canon so it's a bad idea to use it in a debate.

The same databook that says Haku is light speed? REALLY inaccurate as far as I can tell.

[colorles]

Naruto anime is non-canon so it's a bad idea to use it in a debate.

The same databook that says Haku is light speed? REALLY inaccurate as far as I can tell.

let me address this: Haku is not litterally lightspeed outside of the jutsu, but inside of the crystal ice mirrors jutsu, Haku's body is not litterally attacking, but his reflection; reflections are light, hence the attacking reflections of Haku are lightspeed. so within the crystal ice mirrors jutsu, Haku's attacking reflections are lightspeed, but Haku's actually body outside of the jutsu is far slower

[Miles Edgeworth]

let me address this: Haku is not litterally lightspeed outside of the jutsu, but inside of the crystal ice mirrors jutsu, Haku's body is not litterally attacking, but his reflection; reflections are light, hence the attacking reflections of Haku are lightspeed. so within the crystal ice mirrors jutsu, Haku's attacking reflections are lightspeed, but Haku's actually body outside of the jutsu is far slower

His body is not attacking despite the fact he exits through the mirrors? Just because you have reflections all over doesn't mean the reflections are attacking, otherwise there wouldn't be Haku traveling through mirrors as he attacks.

Prove that it is lightspeed or the point is moot, having reflections doesn't make you lightspeed, especially when the reflections are really only there for effect and confusion.

Also, if Haku was lightspeed, then why do characters who are much faster require at least 3 days to travel from Konoha to Suna? I remember NL saying some crap like the villages are planets away but that is clearly just a desperate attempt to overrate Narutoverse speed.

[NagatoGod_of_Pain]

let me address this: Haku is not litterally lightspeed outside of the jutsu, but inside of the crystal ice mirrors jutsu, Haku's body is not litterally attacking, but his reflection; reflections are light, hence the attacking reflections of Haku are lightspeed. so within the crystal ice mirrors jutsu, Haku's attacking reflections are lightspeed, but Haku's actually body outside of the jutsu is far slowerSo are you trying to say that Haku's speed is recorded as lightspeed in the databooks because of his jutsu? Then why isn't someone like Gaara, who's strength is listed at 2.5, treated like that as well? His sand, which is his jutsu or somewhat of a pseudo-kekkei genkai, is much stronger than a 2.5. It should probably be about 4-5 if all characters were treated by their jutsu. This is why databooks are so broken.

'raiton clone, Raikiri wolf, Raikiri, anyd clone feints followed by Raikiri, the doton wall/raikiri combo against Deva Pain, the doton underground attack against pain (with the smoke bomb), pretty much anything he did against pain (oro does not have shinra tensei or interconnecting eyesight), water techs for defense (suiton sujinhicki without a water source), Kakashi,s superios speed and reaction abilities with raiton attacks, possibly in taijutsu with kunai/kusurigama, and as i said before, clone feints/doton fakes/raiton variations, and suitons for protection (Kakashi has plenty of chakara for all that with recent feats)' etcOrochimaru simply spams his wind release to overcome any of Kakashi's lightning release. This negates all of his raiton. Kakashi is now left with suiton and a few doton. Orochimaru can surely tank and cough up a new body against any suiton if needed. Orochimaru then coughs up his seemingly infinite snakes from his mouth, along with Kusanagi. Kakashi cannot escape these snakes and is caught. Kusanagi then ends this.

Also, don't forget Orochimaru's true form, not counting hydra. I'm talking about the one to use the switch bodies jutsu. IIRC his true body constantly releases a poison to incapacitate his opponent. Orochimaru can then take it a step further and get himself a new body.

[colorles]

Kakashi's raitons are far more elite than any fuutons Oro has shown or can do, and Kakashi's legendary raitons still overpower Oro's lesser fuutons. even if fuuton has type advantage, Kakashi's raitons are powerful enough to still be effective, and this is not even debatable

Haku's body is not lightspeed, only his reflections inside of crystal ice mirrors, which are indeed attacking; howeveer, Hauk's body is creating the reflections, which are attacking. hence, the attacking reflections reflected from and attacking Haku are lightspeed, while Haku is not

[SageoftheSixPaths]

Lolwut? Hydra stomps. There's nothing Kakashi or Shika can do against it at all. It tanks whatever they try and more. Considering MS is Kakashi's ONLY chance of even HOPING to compete with Orochimaru, adding that restriction just makes it one sided.

[Miles Edgeworth]

Kakashi's raitons are far more elite than any fuutons Oro has shown or can do, and Kakashi's legendary raitons still overpower Oro's lesser fuutons. even if fuuton has type advantage, Kakashi's raitons are powerful enough to still be effective, and this is not even debatable

Haku's body is not lightspeed, only his reflections inside of crystal ice mirrors, which are indeed attacking; howeveer, Hauk's body is creating the reflections, which are attacking. hence, the attacking reflections reflected from and attacking Haku are lightspeed, while Haku is not


The reflections are not attacking from what I remember, they merely appear to be because Haku was moving quickly. It was clearly shown that Haku was jumping from mirror to mirror at high speeds, which made it appear that his reflections were attacking. That does not make it lightspeed.

And again, if someone like Sasuke, who was not that fast at the time, could react easily to it (he JUST got Sharingan and was adjusting quickly, so if someone says he was having trouble reacting then I would have to disagree), then I don't see how a group of faster, more experienced ninja took days to get to Suna. Weighted Lee was blitzing the same Sasuke who reacted to Haku in the mirrors and he hasn't demonstrated anything near light speed, or he and Guy would have gotten to Suna in much less than a day.

[colorles]

Lolwut? Hydra stomps. There's nothing Kakashi or Shika can do against it at all. It tanks whatever they try and more. Considering MS is Kakashi's ONLY chance of even HOPING to compete with Orochimaru, adding that restriction just makes it one sided.

lets talk shikamaru for a moment; his shadow tendrils could potentially slice and dice hydra just as they did to pains centipede (please tell ne if that was anime only or not)

Kakashi's raitons are deadly to anything, and according to some here, Oro can not even use Hydra without Sasuke

lets talk base Orochimaru vs base sharingan Kakashi; simply put, Kakashi has more advantages than oro has, any of oros snake jutsu can be countered with doton or suiton or clones etc, and Oro's fuutons are not powerful or plenty enough to triumph over a far stronger user of raitons

speed goes to Kakashi overall in combination of footspeed and reaction speed, and in tiajutusu/weopons combat, kusanagi sword can be defended against by Kakashi with a mere Kunai (kunai ve Hidans sythe anyone), and he also has a kusurigama. Kakashi also has legendary reaction speed to react to anything Oro can dish out, including sword of Kusanagi. granted Kakashi would have a hard time finishing oro with oral rebirth, but with his clone feints and combo's, ingenious battle strategies, and improving chakra and all recent speed feats and jutsu's, Kakashi actually has an advantage here

[colorles]

The reflections are not attacking from what I remember, they merely appear to be because Haku was moving quickly. It was clearly shown that Haku was jumping from mirror to mirror at high speeds, which made it appear that his reflections were attacking. That does not make it lightspeed.

And again, if someone like Sasuke, who was not that fast at the time, could react easily to it (he JUST got Sharingan and was adjusting quickly, so if someone says he was having trouble reacting then I would have to disagree), then I don't see how a group of faster, more experienced ninja took days to get to Suna. Weighted Lee was blitzing the same Sasuke who reacted to Haku in the mirrors and he hasn't demonstrated anything near light speed, or he and Guy would have gotten to Suna in much less than a day.

well i'm just trying to give a rational theory on how the databook could say Haku is lightspeed; its just a theory, although the mere reflections being lightspeed but not Haku him self sounds pheasible. talk with Harlequin of moviecodec for more details`;)

[SageoftheSixPaths]

lets talk shikamaru for a moment; his shadow tendrils could potentially slice and dice hydra just as they did to pains centipede (please tell ne if that was anime only or not)

Kakashi's raitons are deadly to anything, and according to some here, Oro can not even use Hydra without Sasuke

lets talk base Orochimaru vs base sharingan Kakashi; simply put, Kakashi has more advantages than oro has, any of oros snake jutsu can be countered with doton or suiton or clones etc, and Oro's fuutons are not powerful or plenty enough to triumph over a far stronger user of raitons

speed goes to Kakashi overall in combination of footspeed and reaction speed, and in tiajutusu/weopons combat, kusanagi sword can be defended against by Kakashi with a mere Kunai (kunai ve Hidans sythe anyone), and he also has a kusurigama. Kakashi also has legendary reaction speed to react to anything Oro can dish out, including sword of Kusanagi. granted Kakashi would have a hard time finishing oro with oral rebirth, but with his clone feints and combo's, ingenious battle strategies, and improving chakra and all recent speed feats and jutsu's, Kakashi actually has an advantage here
Centipede is anime only. Non canon.

Raitons aren't deadly at all. The only deadly one he has is Raikiri, and that couldn't even kill Asura after two direct hits.

Fuutons>Raitons due to elemental affinities. Also, Orochimaru has WAY more chakra, stamina, durability, strength, and experience. There is absolutely NO way Kakashi is going to overpower him. Orochimaru got cut in half by KN4 and was fine. Kakashi used Kamui twice and died. Orochimaru wins that test. Sea of Snakes alone overcomes everything Kakashi has shown, not to mention Oro's White Snake form that could paralyze Kakashi in an instant.

Kusanagi cuts through a kunai like it's butter. Oro has vastly superior taijutsu and strength feats against Tsunade. What speed feats does he have that could possibly make him faster than Orochimaru, who is very easily supersonic? He's equal fairly easily, but faster? Definitely not.

[Vivi]

Raitons aren't deadly at all. The only deadly one he has is Raikiri, and that couldn't even kill Asura after two direct hits.



Actually you might have to take into account that Asura was far from a pushover.

Saying Kakashi couldn't even kill it with Raikiri only show's how Tough that Path was.

[colorles]

Centipede is anime only. Non canon.

Raitons aren't deadly at all. The only deadly one he has is Raikiri, and that couldn't even kill Asura after two direct hits.

Fuutons>Raitons due to elemental affinities. Also, Orochimaru has WAY more chakra, stamina, durability, strength, and experience. There is absolutely NO way Kakashi is going to overpower him. Orochimaru got cut in half by KN4 and was fine. Kakashi used Kamui twice and died. Orochimaru wins that test. Sea of Snakes alone overcomes everything Kakashi has shown, not to mention Oro's White Snake form that could paralyze Kakashi in an instant.

Kusanagi cuts through a kunai like it's butter. Oro has vastly superior taijutsu and strength feats against Tsunade. What speed feats does he have that could possibly make him faster than Orochimaru, who is very easily supersonic? He's equal fairly easily, but faster? Definitely not.

whatever

there all deadly with combo's, and Asura survived because he is mechanical, does not have a flowing heart, and it durable in a non living sense

just because wind has the advantage, Kakashi is a superior raiton user to Oro's fuutons by a vast margin; his raiton's are still effective

Kakashi is not gona overpower, but out guile and outmaneuver. a raiton clone could paralyze oro, raikiri/doton wall combo could take out a heart, he would force him to use many oral rebirths. sea of sankes can be countered by going undergroung, raiton hound, suiton wall (without water source), and oro could get owned by Kakashi's ingenious clone placment. white snake's poisones vapors can be seen with sharingan, and if Sasuke could survive it, so could Kakashi with his sharingan. and dont underestimate clones

metal cannot cut through other metal; bottom line. kusanagi does not cut through kunai. also i dont know what kishi is waiting for to make Kakashi funnel raiton into a kunai, but its terrible writing so peoplke like you can underestimate him. Kakashi with sharigna can react and counter any sword move oro can do with his owbn kunai and spees

in footspeed they are probably about equal or so, but in reaction spead Kakashi is defi itively faster

also i am not being one sided; i'm merly saying that with both in base forms without trump jutus, they are basically evenly matched. i am not downgraded oro's jutsu; it could go either way, and it would be a battle of guil and deception

[Miles Edgeworth]

well i'm just trying to give a rational theory on how the databook could say Haku is lightspeed; its just a theory, although the mere reflections being lightspeed but not Haku him self sounds pheasible. talk with Harlequin of moviecodec for more details`;)

The problem with that is the mere idea of him being light speed is a massive inconsistency with the rest of the series, plus the whole reflection thing doesn't really work if the reflections don't do more than add effect.

The databook also said that Kisame's Suitons are FTL though from what I heard, that for sure has no sort of rational explanation whatsoever aside from wank and other inconsistent databook claims.

I don't think I want to go to moviecodec to ask about something that I believe is clearly wrong, especially since moviecodec fails in general. I tried going there at one point but the stuff there is horrible and I don't see very much intelligence there, I see a lot of people just flaming and cursing each other out in a whole bunch of threads. There might be some intelligent people there, but I wouldn't want to gamble on the possible wank that might ensue D=

[colorles]

The problem with that is the mere idea of him being light speed is a massive inconsistency with the rest of the series, plus the whole reflection thing doesn't really work if the reflections don't do more than add effect.

The databook also said that Kisame's Suitons are FTL though from what I heard, that for sure has no sort of rational explanation whatsoever aside from wank and other inconsistent databook claims.

I don't think I want to go to moviecodec to ask about something that I believe is clearly wrong, especially since moviecodec fails in general. I tried going there at one point but the stuff there is horrible and I don't see very much intelligence there, I see a lot of people just flaming and cursing each other out in a whole bunch of threads. There might be some intelligent people there, but I wouldn't want to gamble on the possible wank that might ensue D=

it is inconsitent, but the point i was trying to make is that Haku himself is not actually lightspeed, but only the REFLECTIONS INSIDE THE JUTSU (pardon the bold caps). that is the only 'logical' explanation i suppose to give credit to the databooks

either that or just discredit them altogether

itachi's suiton bullet and Kisame's were said to be lightspeed, which Kakashi reacted too (he's got great reaction speed, but a water bullet being faster that light is close to immpsoible according to physics). thats a little farfetched

meh whatever

[SageoftheSixPaths]

Actually you might have to take into account that Asura was far from a pushover.

Saying Kakashi couldn't even kill it with Raikiri only show's how Tough that Path was.
True. However, considering it's Kakashi's most powerful technique after Kamui (which is banned for this fight) and after TWO shots it couldn't even slow Asura down, well, that says something. However, you're right that Asura is a massive tank.
whatever

there all deadly with combo's, and Asura survived because he is mechanical, does not have a flowing heart, and it durable in a non living sense

just because wind has the advantage, Kakashi is a superior raiton user to Oro's fuutons by a vast margin; his raiton's are still effective

Kakashi is not gona overpower, but out guile and outmaneuver. a raiton clone could paralyze oro, raikiri/doton wall combo could take out a heart, he would force him to use many oral rebirths. sea of sankes can be countered by going undergroung, raiton hound, suiton wall (without water source), and oro could get owned by Kakashi's ingenious clone placment. white snake's poisones vapors can be seen with sharingan, and if Sasuke could survive it, so could Kakashi with his sharingan. and dont underestimate clones

metal cannot cut through other metal; bottom line. kusanagi does not cut through kunai. also i dont know what kishi is waiting for to make Kakashi funnel raiton into a kunai, but its terrible writing so peoplke like you can underestimate him. Kakashi with sharigna can react and counter any sword move oro can do with his owbn kunai and spees

in footspeed they are probably about equal or so, but in reaction spead Kakashi is defi itively faster

also i am not being one sided; i'm merly saying that with both in base forms without trump jutus, they are basically evenly matched. i am not downgraded oro's jutsu; it could go either way, and it would be a battle of guil and deception
Great Breakthrough tore a massive hole through a forest. Kakashi has never shown anything of that magnitude, and when you factor in elemental advantages, well, he gets owned.

How is a Raiton Clone going to even HIT Orochimaru? Even if it DOES hit, he took dozens to hundreds of blows from Tsunade and didn't even bruise. No way a single Raiton Clone is going to paralyze him, let alone do any damage. Suiton Wall will do nothing to stop hundreds to thousands of giant snakes from eating Kakashi alive. Orochimaru can cover a massive area with that technique, the majority of which Kakashi cannot cover. As for clone placement, that'll just was his chakra. Orochimaru has a chakra pool on par with Jiraiya and KN4. Kakashi is nowhere near that level. He'd get outlasted with ease. Just because Sasuke could break free from the vapors doesn't mean Kakashi could. Sasuke's been proven to have a vastly superior Sharingan when compared to other Sharingan users. But clones suck. xD

Really? Dude, Kusanagi isn't just metal. It could cut through DIAMOND. It injured Enma Diamond Monkey Staff. No way a kunai will stop it. Also, in real life, tempered steel would easily cut through copper. Metal can most definitely cut through metal.

Proof on Kakashi's better reaction speed? Orochimaru has KN4 reactions, as well as Jiraiya/ Tsunade/ Sasuke reactions. I don't believe Kakashi has anything of that magnitude.

I disagree. I still believe that Orochimaru has far more powerful techniques, more stamina, and overall is just a better fighter. In terms of deception, Kakashi is a combative genius. However, Orochimaru is a genius, period. I don't see either one outsmarting the other in this situation.

[colorles]

your not really overateing oro, but you are underating kakashi big time

i'm done here as i got some other stuff on my hands

i'l conceid for now though and allow some room for some other opinions

peace

[Miles Edgeworth]

it is inconsitent, but the point i was trying to make is that Haku himself is not actually lightspeed, but only the REFLECTIONS INSIDE THE JUTSU (pardon the bold caps). that is the only 'logical' explanation i suppose to give credit to the databooks

either that or just discredit them altogether

itachi's suiton bullet and Kisame's were said to be lightspeed, which Kakashi reacted too (he's got great reaction speed, but a water bullet being faster that light is close to immpsoible according to physics). thats a little farfetched

meh whatever



But the reflections themselves are just that, reflections. They have no purpose in the jutsu besides being there for effect. The reflections don't attack, Haku himself merely jumps through the mirrors so it APPEARS there are multiple reflections attacking, while there aren't.

The databooks are unreliable in nearly every way and I hardly use them unless for some reason I was desperate to find something regarding a character, and even then that's something I do with caution.

[SageoftheSixPaths]

I personally don't think I'm underestimating him at all. It's just that he kind of pales next to Orochimaru is all.

Nice debating with you. xD

Pe@ce.

[DissentfromWithin]

A lot of you guys are forgetting that Orochimaru cannot use his summoning. Therefore he cannot use all these snake related jutsu. Plus, only Kakashi's Mangekyou Sharingan was barred, not his regular Sharingan. That gives him amazing reaction speed.

[Invisible Fog]

Orochimaru could tank Kyuubi Naruto's attacks with ease. Oral Rebirth, and Kakashi's dead. Seriously, Kakashi can't do anything. Orochimarus reaction speed is fast, and if he gets hurt, again Oral rebirth.

Shikamaru's "IQ" won't help him against a Sannin, AT ALL. Just look at everything Orochimaru has done.

[Kuromaki]

A lot of you guys are forgetting that Orochimaru cannot use his summoning. Therefore he cannot use all these snake related jutsu. Plus, only Kakashi's Mangekyou Sharingan was barred, not his regular Sharingan. That gives him amazing reaction speed.
Orochimaru not being able to summon hardly makes a difference. He was keeping up with 4 tailed Naruto. Taijutsu with Kusanagi could win this for him, with maybe an Oral Rebirth thrown in if he gets fatally injured.

Also, it only bans summoning, there's nothing stopping him from using his snake form where he slithers around and gains speed.

[Phoenix Wright]

I don't really care about the gravedig since this thread is full of so much win, DM raped.

Even with Kamui. Orochimaru effortlessly avoids any and all Kamui and jutsu—including cliche Shadow techniques— and cuts both of their heads off.

[tyrell4life194]

Orochimaru not being able to summon hardly makes a difference. He was keeping up with 4 tailed Naruto. Taijutsu with Kusanagi could win this for him, with maybe an Oral Rebirth thrown in if he gets fatally injured.
Kuro, Orochimaru wasn't keeping up with KN4, because KN4 was just standing there. He was doing no leg movement of any kind.
Also, it only bans summoning, there's nothing stopping him from using his snake form where he slithers around and gains speed.
In red.

[Kuromaki]

In red.
I remember him dodging 4tK attacks.

[tyrell4life194]

Manga Chapter and Page Number. Therefore, I can analyze the situation at hand.

[Kuromaki]

Manga Chapter and Page Number. Therefore, I can analyze the situation at hand.
294 page 5, 6.

Anyway Orochimaru should be able to sufficiently keep up with Kakashi, and the range of Kusanagi alone makes up for any speed problems he might have. Shikamaru obviously won't be having any speed advantages over Oro.

Edit: It seems like Orochimaru really wasn't showing any amazing speed feats there... But what I said still stands.

[tyrell4life194]

Thanks for the proof.

Now anyways, while Orochimaru was able to keep up with KN4's Chakra Arms, there is no guarantee that KN4 has the same movement speed when it uses its legs for transportation.

[colorles]

ah but can Orochimaru survive Kamui?

[tyrell4life194]

It depends on whether Orochimaru has the reflexes necessary to dodge the Kamui.

[colorles]

It depends on whether Orochimaru has the reflexes necessary to dodge the Kamui.

oh wait this thread has MS restricted, i had alot to say in this back in June. even without MS Kakashi as of recent is not outmatched in there base forms, would be a matchup of counters and the like; that being said if Orochimaru can indeed go hydra without coming out of Sasuke, he should win, but thats inconclusive. both fighters have there chances though, although Oro's regeneration is the 'x factor' here

i was just trying to stress Kakashi as not being the pushover he is somtimes mistaken to be due to being repeatedly used as Kishi's 'hype stick'; sure Kakashi has his chances, but Oro has regeneration and his sword and the like. Kakashi can more than 'hold his own', but more than likely to finish Oro permenently, he would somwhat liikely need Kamui, which WOULD kill Oro by the way; he cant regenerate with his head, brain, and spinal chord in another dimention now can he?

[Miles Edgeworth]

I'd be inclined to believe Oro takes this.

Kakashi is fast but not fast enough to blitz Oro. Without Kamui, Kakashi's got nearly no chance of actually killing Oro.

Kusanagi could probably get the job done considering its long range and the fact that it harmed KN4, who has better durability than Kakashi and definitely Shikamaru.

[tyrell4life194]

Shikamaru is a fodder in this fight.

Due to Kamui and MS being restricted, Kakashi literally has no Ninjutsu that can kill, let alone harm Orochimaru, due to his Oral Rebirth. Just like Miles stated, the Sword of Kusanagi takes this.