Penetrative Force vs Crushing Force

[321zigzag1]

So apparently in the Base Killerbee vs Kimimaro thread.

Toad Master says that Killerbee's raiton sword cannot penetrate the bones because.

294 tons can crush steel flat and it was unable to crush kimimaro.
Means Lightning sword or not it wouldnt effect his bones.

All the lightning does is make his sword sharper. There is no force added by his lightning style, the force would come from killer bee swinging the sword, and there is no way Killer bee can swing a sword with 294 tons of force.

@Bolded
Does this make sense? Since when Penetration is the same as crushing?

Tanduhman has his own answer.

cutting force beats that of crushing force in this situation.. if you put a pice of steel under all of that sand it would not be flattened? because all of that sand isnt focussing on one spot, it is focusing on multiple spots over the area that it is given.

as said by zigzag cutting force is better, due to its ability to focus on one direct spot. the lightning gives it an even better cutting force, and plus if kimmi was touched by KB's sword than he would be electrocuted. something that his bones cannot protect him from.

KB wins with greater speed feats.

This is how I thought it would go.

Also apparently Kimimaro's bones are apparently invincible to most things to cutting, penetrating, and crushing now?


Because!

200 maters is = to 654 to 656 feet.

A cubic feet of Dry Sand weigh is = to 100lb
A cubic yard is 3 x 3 x 3 = 27, so there is 27 cubic feet in a cubic yard.
27x100= 2700lb
There is 218 Cubic Yards in 200 maters
2700x218 = 588,600lbs

And 588,600lbs in tons would be 294 Tons.

Meaning kimimaro can tank a hit from base strength Hulk!



What does the rest think? Is Penetrative force that much different from crushing force or they are that closely correlated?

Also not to mention Sasuke who can cut steel easily was cancelling Killerbee's raiton. Not to mention his raiton pencil went through a trunk.

This is not a flame thread. I want some other opinions of those who would know more than I on this subject particular.

[crystalblade13]

toad masters rediculous. one has nothing to do with the other. there is no way kimmimaros bones could tank a raiton sword, nothing in naruto has, other than opposing raiton. the debates pretty silly and bee would easily rofleblitze kimmimaro.

[321zigzag1]

toad masters rediculous. one has nothing to do with the other. there is no way kimmimaros bones could tank a raiton sword, nothing in naruto has, other than opposing raiton. the debates pretty silly and bee would easily rofleblitze kimmimaro.

Thats not the main problem.

The problem I have is that Toad Master says you must have 294 tons of cutting force.

This makes no sense. Since Raiton is all about Penetration/piercing

[crystalblade13]

exactly, which just means toad master doesnt know what he's talking about. 294 tons or whatever effects nothing if your sword reduces whatever it cuts resistance to that of silk.

[321zigzag1]

exactly, which just means toad master doesnt know what he's talking about. 294 tons or whatever effects nothing if your sword reduces whatever it cuts resistance to that of silk.

Quite.

Crushing isn't the same as penetration. I frankly thought they were different.

[crystalblade13]

your confusing me. im siding with you. crushing force and slicing force arent related.

[321zigzag1]

your confusing me. im siding with you. crushing force and slicing force arent related.

I know you are. I am just expressing my puzzlement why Toad Master insists it must be 294 tons of cutting.

Killerbee's penetrative raiton works differently and penetrating one area isn't crushing whole thing.

[zebrakiller]

u should change the word "penetrative"...its misleading...

the fact that kimi took that much force is impressive, but doesnt mean he cant be stabbed and/or cut. his bones probly allow him to limit the blunt force trauma on his organs he would suffer from such a huge blow, thus letting him tank it and survive. but last i checked his skin, muscles, flesh wasnt impenetrable so as long as KB stabs him and doesnt hit bone, hes done.

[321zigzag1]

u should change the word "penetrative"...its misleading...

the fact that kimi took that much force is impressive, but doesnt mean he cant be stabbed and/or cut. his bones probly allow him to limit the blunt force trauma on his organs he would suffer from such a huge blow, thus letting him tank it and survive. but last i checked his skin, muscles, flesh wasnt impenetrable so as long as KB stabs him and doesnt hit bone, hes done.

To what?

Raiton is all about piercing.

Because his bones are harder than steel of course. However Kimimaro can encompass his body with bone I believe.

However can his bones resist the piercing force from Killerbee's raiton?

I doubt it. Considering what his pencil has done.

[zebrakiller]

To what?

Raiton is all about piercing.

Because his bones are harder than steel of course. However Kimimaro can encompass his body with bone I believe.

However can his bones resist the piercing force from Killerbee's raiton?

I doubt it. Considering what his pencil has done.
i dont think u understood what i meant...it was a joke. think "penetrative"...

[321zigzag1]

i dont think u understood what i meant...it was a joke. think "penetrative"...

http://naruto.viz.com/forum/misc.php?do=cfrules

Rule Number 3. http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/pictureem0.gifhttp://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/gun.png


To be fair I could be wrong I could be unaware of something here.

But anyway...........

[zebrakiller]

http://neoncstar.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/facepalm2ic7copyrl2-jpg.jpeg

[paulatreides0]

http://naruto.viz.com/forum/misc.php?do=cfrules

Rule Number 3. http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/pictureem0.gifhttp://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/gun.png


To be fair I could be wrong I could be unaware of something here.

But anyway...........

I see innuendo nowhere on that list, good sir :quite

[321zigzag1]

http://neoncstar.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/facepalm2ic7copyrl2-jpg.jpeg

Did you enjoy how I purposefully ruined it Zebrakiller? I guess you did. I did know what you meant though but seriously cmon now. You are not contributing anything. http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/2z7exox.png

I see innuendo nowhere on that list, good sir :quite

http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/2z7exox.png

[The 1st Hokage]

Thats not the main problem.

The problem I have is that Toad Master says you must have 294 tons of cutting force.

This makes no sense. Since Raiton is all about Penetration/piercing
It's stupid.i can crush at 200 pounds of pressure,but i can swing a sword about 4 times as strong.Cutting and crushing are 2 very different forces so Toad master is wrong either way.

[321zigzag1]

It's stupid.i can crush at 200 pounds of pressure,but i can swing a sword about 4 times as strong.Cutting and crushing are 2 very different forces so Toad master is wrong either way.

That is true cutting and crushing are different. Although cutting and penetrating aren't necessarily the same either.

Raiton is mainly about piercing.

Fuuton is mainly about cutting.

But your point is made. `@x)

[tanduhman]

well thanks for making my statement apparent.. i believe he didnt try to counter it because he pretty much couldnt XD he has no real proof that alll of the sand was focusing on kimmis body when it was quite obvius that the perimeter of the sand he was sunk in was far larger than that of his body. most of the sand would be focusing on other sand around the area, and not actually him. and of course yes only a small fraction of that could actually focus on a pinpoint of his body like a sword can.

cutting power focuses. why do you think that you cant cut a slice of bread with sand? because that is what a knife is for. so yes, they are greatly different.

[321zigzag1]

Exactly. Also Pauladude also did better job than I clarifying it in the pm with me so.

[paulatreides0]

-Sigh- Do I really have to do it again?? :cry

[The 1st Hokage]

-Sigh- Do I really have to do it again?? :cry
we have smileys you know.

[I'm]

Force is force. Penetrating and crushing is just two different ways they use the force. Penetrating is effective because the character can focus a poor amount of energy onto the object, and it will cut or penetrate because it's being applied over a tiny surface area. Crushing force, in this case, is being applied over the entire body.

[321zigzag1]

Here is a face I have not seen for a long time.

Also thank you for being reasonable.

[Toad Master]

I know you are. I am just expressing my puzzlement why Toad Master insists it must be 294 tons of cutting.

Killerbee's penetrative raiton works differently and penetrating one area isn't crushing whole thing.

I never said it had to be 294 tons of cutting force.

But, for something to withstand 294 tons of crushing force, i'm just saying the cutting force would at less have to be at less half that.

killer Bee isnt strong enough to deliver that much force.

his sword could barely cut thru steel, kimimaro's Bone's are way harder then steel.

Kimimaro's has over Class 300 durability, I havent seen anybody in Naruto to have that much crushing power.

[Toad Master]

Force is force. Penetrating and crushing is just two different ways they use the force. Penetrating is effective because the character can focus a poor amount of energy onto the object, and it will cut or penetrate because it's being applied over a tiny surface area. Crushing force, in this case, is being applied over the entire body.

Thank you!

Even though it's being appiled to one spot it would have to have half the force of crushing force.

[Bacon]

I don't have calculations and formulas to back this up, but from what I understand; penetration is based on how concentrated the energy or heat is directed at the point of impact. This is becuase the shaped charges developed in world war 2 were basically normal explosives at first, but the added modification of the shaped come concentrated the energy from the blast into a single point.

As for crushing force, I would say that is less concentrated, and is depends on wieght, and gravity.

[Toad Master]

I don't have calculations and formulas to back this up, but from what I understand; penetration is based on how concentrated the energy or heat is directed at the point of impact. This is becuase the shaped charges developed in world war 2 were basically normal explosives at first, but the added modification of the shaped come concentrated the energy from the blast into a single point.

As for crushing force, I would say that is less concentrated, and is depends on wieght, and gravity.

I will take the lose, but I still cant see how killer bee's sword would hurt Kimimaro and if it could cut it, it would take longer then it did with the sword he cut, But since Kimimaro would defend with extra bones from his body and use that time to attack with more bone's or use his best jutsu and make a forest of bones shoot up out of the ground.

I'm just saying there is a reason why he died of a illness and not combat.
His bones allowed him to Tank 294 tons of crushing force without any effect on him, showing he could have tank a lot more.

Kimimaro has great defense power, The hulk's base strength is only 100 tons, that makes hm able to tank a punch from him at base strength and a mad Hulk, takes awhile to get over 300 tons and Kimimaro has at less class 300 durability, and is unknown how much more durability.

I'm just saying that!

[ChINaMaN1472]

Physics lesson:

What matters here is pressure, not force. For the sake of simplicity, pressure is the application of force. Simply having X amount of force means nothing.

Pressure is force / area.

You can have higher pressure, with a smaller amount of force. Things that pierce or penetrate require much less pressure to be effective. It's much easier to stab with someone with a knife than it is a baseball bat.

And the calculation has a flaw, as he was in a standing position, you'd have to calculate the amount of sand that was pressured on his body directly. From a top down view of a standing human, you only have your head, shoulders, and arms. He'd have to be buried lying on his back to even come close to covering having 9 sqft of surface area for his body to be covered, as the standard person is about 6' tall, and around 1.5' wide.

And he was clearly in a standing, hunching position - chapter 217, page 6.

I wouldn't be surprised if the actual surface area was closer to like 3-4 sqft rather than 9 sqft. I mean, instead of using 3 feet x 3 feet, if we use 1 foot x 1 foott, that force drops from 300 tons down to 32 tons.

[321zigzag1]

I never said it had to be 294 tons of cutting force.

Begging your pardon but I quoted you and you sounded awfully lot like that.
Yeah color me red if it wasn't.



But, for something to withstand 294 tons of crushing force, i'm just saying the cutting force would at less have to be at less half that.

killer Bee isnt strong enough to deliver that much force.

his sword could barely cut thru steel, kimimaro's Bone's are way harder then steel.

Kimimaro's has over Class 300 durability, I havent seen anybody in Naruto to have that much crushing power.

Again please read Killerbee vs Kisame we are talking about piercing effects of Raiton. Sure he has his own strength but its also the Raiton I told you that. Why are you skipping over it.
Also Sasuke casually cuts steel Killerbee's raiton piercing cancelled that. Its not hard to compare dude.

Again ignoring the fact he wasn't even applying pressure other than Raiton alone was doing the work on Zabuza's sword.

Chibaku Tensei

Physics lesson:

What matters here is pressure, not force. For the sake of simplicity, pressure is the application of force. Simply having X amount of force means nothing.

Pressure is force / area.

You can have higher pressure, with a smaller amount of force. Things that pierce or penetrate require much less pressure to be effective. It's much easier to stab with someone with a knife than it is a baseball bat.

And the calculation has a flaw, as he was in a standing position, you'd have to calculate the amount of sand that was pressured on his body directly. From a top down view of a standing human, you only have your head, shoulders, and arms. He'd have to be buried lying on his back to even come close to covering having 9 sqft of surface area for his body to be covered, as the standard person is about 6' tall, and around 1.5' wide.

And he was clearly in a standing, hunching position - chapter 217, page 6.

I wouldn't be surprised if the actual surface area was closer to like 3-4 sqft rather than 9 sqft. I mean, instead of using 3 feet x 3 feet, if we use 1 foot x 1 foott, that force drops from 300 tons down to 32 tons.

There you go. I might have said things here and there but this better summarizes what I was saying.

Also this clarifies even more.

As for the calculation well glad someone else looked it over.


@Bolded

Hmmm

[paulatreides0]

we have smileys you know.

NF smilies are better :hmpf

[colorles]

NF smilies are better :hmpf

your smilie got de smiled:cry:

yeah though NF does have a vast array of smiles and moving flashes and such. the possibiliteis are endless

[Toad Master]

Physics lesson:

What matters here is pressure, not force. For the sake of simplicity, pressure is the application of force. Simply having X amount of force means nothing.

Pressure is force / area.

You can have higher pressure, with a smaller amount of force. Things that pierce or penetrate require much less pressure to be effective. It's much easier to stab with someone with a knife than it is a baseball bat.

And the calculation has a flaw, as he was in a standing position, you'd have to calculate the amount of sand that was pressured on his body directly. From a top down view of a standing human, you only have your head, shoulders, and arms. He'd have to be buried lying on his back to even come close to covering having 9 sqft of surface area for his body to be covered, as the standard person is about 6' tall, and around 1.5' wide.

And he was clearly in a standing, hunching position - chapter 217, page 6.

I wouldn't be surprised if the actual surface area was closer to like 3-4 sqft rather than 9 sqft. I mean, instead of using 3 feet x 3 feet, if we use 1 foot x 1 foott, that force drops from 300 tons down to 32 tons.

The human body is about 2ft across, and since kimimaro had to incaress the size of his bones making them bigger plus the increase in size from CS2 wouls of made him about 3ft across.

So really it does come back around to 3ft, so my math is right.

[zebrakiller]

The human body is about 2ft across, and since kimimaro had to incaress the size of his bones making them bigger plus the increase in size from CS2 wouls of made him about 3ft across.

So really it does come back around to 3ft, so my math is right.
the obese human body might be 2 ft across... thats ridiculous.

[Toad Master]

the obese human body might be 2 ft across... thats ridiculous.

i'm not obese, hell i'm not fat at all if anything I need to gain weight and my chest is 1ft, 8in across.

and My friend is Obese and his chest is like triple the size of mine.

So your wrong dude, its not ridiculous.

[superman]

I am going with penetrative force.

[Toad Master]

There is nothing called Penetrative Force. Killer Bee used his lightning style chakra to increase the sharpness of his blade, same with sasuke. It doesnt add force to it.

Basicly your saying something that barely cut steel can cut something harder and stronger then steel.

Increasing his blade in order to cut something that withstood 294 tons is impossible with Killer Bee's level of strength.

If you take a box made of Steel and place 294 tons on top of it, then it would be crushed and Kimimaro wasn't that says a lot about his durability.

[ChINaMaN1472]

The human body is about 2ft across, and since kimimaro had to incaress the size of his bones making them bigger plus the increase in size from CS2 wouls of made him about 3ft across.

So really it does come back around to 3ft, so my math is right.

Ugh. The amount of force doesn't matter, as it's the amount of PRESSURE that matters. It doesn't matter how much force you have, it's how it's applied. The math I did was simply to show that you're just trying to generate big numbers and give a false idea of how much Kimimaro can handle.

294 tons spread across a cross sectional area of 1296 sq inches (36 inches x 36 inches, which is 3 feet x 3 feet) gives you a pressure of:

294 tons / 1296 sq in
0.2268 tons / sq in
454 pounds / sq in
That's equivalent to 3.127 MPa.

Steel? It has a tensile strength of at least 100+ MPa, where tensile strength is basically compressive strength for steel, which is when it is permanently deformed.

It's the way it's applied. Once again, it's much easier to stab someone with a knife than it is with a baseball bat.

[Toad Master]

Ugh. The amount of force doesn't matter, as it's the amount of PRESSURE that matters. It doesn't matter how much force you have, it's how it's applied. The math I did was simply to show that you're just trying to generate big numbers and give a false idea of how much Kimimaro can handle.

294 tons spread across a cross sectional area of 1296 sq inches (36 inches x 36 inches, which is 3 feet x 3 feet) gives you a pressure of:

294 tons / 1296 sq in
0.2268 tons / sq in
454 pounds / sq in
That's equivalent to 3.127 MPa.

Steel? It has a tensile strength of at least 100+ MPa, where tensile strength is basically compressive strength for steel, which is when it is permanently deformed.

It's the way it's applied. Once again, it's much easier to stab someone with a knife than it is with a baseball bat.



If a normal human is buried under 200 maters of earth, his body would be crushed flat, but yet Kimimaru wasn't.

[ChINaMaN1472]

If a normal human is buried under 200 maters of earth, his body would be crushed flat, but yet Kimimaru wasn't.

Concession accepted.

[321zigzag1]

There is nothing called Penetrative Force. Killer Bee used his lightning style chakra to increase the sharpness of his blade, same with sasuke. It doesnt add force to it.

Basically most of us misused the term.

Basicly your saying something that barely cut steel can cut something harder and stronger then steel.

I told you more than 4 times. Sasuke's Chidori in Part 1 cut a steel water tank.

His chidori cancelled Killerbee's raiton. Its called simple comparison. His pencil went through a tree.

What more do you want?

Increasing his blade in order to cut something that withstood 294 tons is impossible with Killer Bee's level of strength.


Why do you keep comparing both of them?

Like Chinaman and the others told you its far easier to stab/pierce a small area then compressing the whole thing.

This isn't rocket science.

[tanduhman]

If a normal human is buried under 200 maters of earth, his body would be crushed flat, but yet Kimimaru wasn't.
either way chinaman proved you wrong.. and you didnt counter how kimmimaru would be electrified if he were to be ttouched by the blade. electocution isnt something to be messed with, so yes its a deadly numbing touch.

not only that but his skin could still be cut with ease, and the fact that everyone has stated... its easier to cut with a knife than cut with a block of wood, and you cannot decifer his cutting force with the lightning enhancement.. im sorry but there isnt equations for something fictional like that XD

[Toad Master]

either way chinaman proved you wrong.. and you didnt counter how kimmimaru would be electrified if he were to be ttouched by the blade. electocution isnt something to be messed with, so yes its a deadly numbing touch.

not only that but his skin could still be cut with ease, and the fact that everyone has stated... its easier to cut with a knife than cut with a block of wood, and you cannot decifer his cutting force with the lightning enhancement.. im sorry but there isnt equations for something fictional like that XD

Your wrong, he didn't prove anything.

[paulatreides0]

Yes, he did. He proved quite a lot.

Also, hey Chinaman, you crazy bastard who's name I'm too lazy to correctly spell. Haven't seen you in a while. How's it going?

[tanduhman]

Yes, he did. He proved quite a lot.

Also, hey Chinaman, you crazy bastard who's name I'm too lazy to correctly spell. Haven't seen you in a while. How's it going?
agreed.. from here on i am taking myself out of this argument over this kimmi crap.. bcuz i am annoyed of the wankery.

[ChINaMaN1472]

Your wrong, he didn't prove anything.

I proved that Kimimaro was only under 500 pounds per square inch, an easy feat that steel can replicate. You have yet to refute that claim.

I also proved that you have no understanding of physics.

What matters isn't the total amount of force applied, it's HOW that force is applied. Once again, it's the same reason why it's much easier to stab someone with a knife than it is a baseball bat if the same amount of force is applied.

Yes, he did. He proved quite a lot.

Also, hey Chinaman, you crazy bastard who's name I'm too lazy to correctly spell. Haven't seen you in a while. How's it going?

Just living the dream.

[Iphone Eyes]

There is no way kimmimaros bones could tank a ration sword, nothing in naruto has, other than opposing ration. the debates pretty silly and bee would easily rofleblitze kimmimaro.

[Toad Master]

I proved that Kimimaro was only under 500 pounds per square inch, an easy feat that steel can replicate. You have yet to refute that claim.

I also proved that you have no understanding of physics.

What matters isn't the total amount of force applied, it's HOW that force is applied. Once again, it's the same reason why it's much easier to stab someone with a knife than it is a baseball bat if the same amount of force is applied.



Just living the dream.

You haven't prove that dude, When a body sinks in quick sand in turn's to the point in which the body is side ways. that can be porove by looking at Kimimaru as he sinks you can see his body turning on it's side, and that would put him at 5ftx2ft, near the same weigh, if not more. Plus you have to consider the pressure on all side's of his body. Sand and Earth is just like Water, the deeper you get the more pressure your body comes under from all side's Kimimaru was logicaly under a lot of pressure aswell as weight.

[ChINaMaN1472]

You do realize if I INCREASE his surface area, the PSI actually goes DOWN right, making the feat even crappier.

Secondly, no, that's how it works. If you're buried under sand, the sand from the side does not exert pressure on you.