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mrsticky005
04-11-2010, 12:55 PM
Ok for those who don't know what playing the devil's advocate is
it's when you take the stance of an argument you don't agree with.
This is done to help strengthen your original argument. And is fun.

So for the record...I DON'T think Zetsu is the Akatsuki mastermind.


But for the sake of the devil's advocate argument thingamahjig...


Zetsu is the Akatsuki Mastermind

Prove me wrong. ;)

Wooster
04-11-2010, 01:01 PM
First we need a clarification from zerosameri, which numbered thread this is discussing the same topic. I guess....11.

Let's start simple.
Tobi is not Obito because he told Sasuke, then Kakashi, Yamato and Naruto, and finally all at the Kage summit that he is Madara.

mrsticky005
04-11-2010, 01:15 PM
First we need a clarification from zerosameri, which numbered thread this is discussing the same topic. I guess....11.

Let's start simple.
Tobi is not Obito because he told Sasuke, then Kakashi, Yamato and Naruto, and finally all at the Kage summit that he is Madara.

Ah...true.

However Obito was lying. Calling himself Madara gives more credit.

Wooster
04-11-2010, 01:20 PM
Obvious response, moving on.

Kisame recognized Tobi as the former Mizukage. Therefore, whoever is Tobi has always been Tobi. Isn't Obito too young to have been in control of the Mist village since Yagura's reign, which probably started after Zabuza assassinated the previous Mizukage?

mrsticky005
04-11-2010, 01:23 PM
Obvious response, moving on.

Kisame recognized Tobi as the former Mizukage. Therefore, whoever is Tobi has always been Tobi. Isn't Obito too young to have been in control of the Mist village since Yagura's reign, which probably started after Zabuza assassinated the previous Mizukage?

Zabuza never assassinated the Mizukage. He failed to do so.

zerosameri
04-11-2010, 01:24 PM
First we need a clarification from zerosameri, which numbered thread this is discussing the same topic. I guess....11.

Let's start simple.
Tobi is not Obito because he told Sasuke, then Kakashi, Yamato and Naruto, and finally all at the Kage summit that he is Madara.
This is only thread 2.

And plus I just writen 21 reaosn why Madara = Madara. and then wail I was fixing my post for error's. I hite the back butten :|

Wooster
04-11-2010, 01:25 PM
Zabuza never assassinated the Mizukage. He failed to do so.
Hold on didn't the assassination succeed, but the coup failed? This is something we need to clarify before moving on. Do you admit that Tobi has always been the same person?

This is only thread 2.

And plus I just writen 21 reaosn why Madara = Madara. and then wail I was fixing my post for error's. I hite the back butten :|
Maybe but this needs to be done point by point. Revealing the truth or good certainty for each point.

mrsticky005
04-11-2010, 01:26 PM
This is only thread 2.

And plus I just writen 21 reaosn why Madara = Madara. and then wail I was fixing my post for error's. I hite the back butten :|

This will be about multiple subjects rather than just Obito.

We change subjects when I give up.

zerosameri
04-11-2010, 01:29 PM
This will be about multiple subjects rather than just Obito.

We change subjects when I give up.
You'll give up soon. There is more then enough to go against your agurment. *your one the Tobi = Obito side right?*
Hold on didn't the assassination succeed, but the coup failed? This is something we need to clarify before moving on. Do you admit that Tobi has always been the same person?


Maybe but this needs to be done point by point. Revealing the truth or good certainty for each point.
Yup I guess so

mrsticky005
04-11-2010, 01:31 PM
Hold on didn't the assassination succeed, but the coup failed? This is something we need to clarify before moving on. Do you admit that Tobi has always been the same person?


Maybe but this needs to be done point by point. Revealing the truth or good certainty for each point.



Both failed.

Chapter 30 Page 3.

Kisame only recognized Tobi when he took off his mask.
So back then he wasn't Tobi but rather he was someone else.

Wooster
04-11-2010, 01:35 PM
Both failed.

Chapter 30 Page 3.

Kisame only recognized Tobi when he took off his mask.
So back then he wasn't Tobi but rather he was someone else.
Alright, fair enough.

Alright, so what we have is that whoever was the former Mizukage or the Man behind the Mizukage is the same as Tobi.

We need a time frame.

I start with this: Madara WAS the Mizukage before Yakura. Therefore, this man is much too old to be Obito.

mrsticky005
04-11-2010, 01:41 PM
Alright, fair enough.

Alright, so what we have is that whoever was the former Mizukage or the Man behind the Mizukage is the same as Tobi.

We need a time frame.

I start with this: Madara WAS the Mizukage before Yakura. Therefore, this man is much too old to be Obito.

The problem is we don't know when Tobi was Mizukage.

We know Mei Terumi is the 5th mizukage. So Tobi can't be the 5th.

Yagura was the Fourth Mizukage. However Ao confirmed that Yagura
was being controlled by some sort of genjutsu. So Tobi might have
been the fourth mizukage.

Or maybe Tobi was Mizukage 1, 2, or 3?

Though 1 or 2 is unlikely because Zabuza probably isn't that old.

Phoenix Wright
04-11-2010, 01:52 PM
There were a lot of Tobito haters that were sure to bash my thread in the first place. I was just waiting but I need clarification on whether you guys just disagree like most people, "Aw that's crap no way is it true!" Or are you a hater?

Wooster
04-11-2010, 01:54 PM
The problem is we don't know when Tobi was Mizukage.

We know Mei Terumi is the 5th mizukage. So Tobi can't be the 5th.

Yagura was the Fourth Mizukage. However Ao confirmed that Yagura
was being controlled by some sort of genjutsu. So Tobi might have
been the fourth mizukage.

Or maybe Tobi was Mizukage 1, 2, or 3?

Though 1 or 2 is unlikely because Zabuza probably isn't that old.
Well technically I could say former Mizukage doesn't mean control, but I don't speak Japanese, so there's too much semantics involved to continue with this point.

Obito has no motivation to do actions that Madara has done. Minato said the man with the mask attack Konoha with the Nine-Tailed Fox, why would Tobi attack Konoha only couple years after his supposed death. It's unlikely he felt betrayed, he willingly offered his eye to Kakashi before his "death." (Him maybe I should have gone into that point first Oh, well)

Later "Madara" told Sasuke that he was planning to attack Konoha and the Uchiha plan. Itachi actually found him out as shown in volume 400.

Why would Obito would to destroy the Uchiha clan?

Also, Tobi at this point is looks quite similar to Madara early appearance. This doesn't say much because Obito could look like Madara as he would be in his early twenties at this point. However, we now know that nothing about Tobi's appearance at least masked says he isn't Madara.

Wooster
04-11-2010, 01:56 PM
There were a lot of Tobito haters that were sure to bash my thread in the first place. I was just waiting but I need clarification on whether you guys just disagree like most people, "Aw that's crap no way is it true!" Or are you a hater?
Does it matter? This thread will reveal the truth through the shifting and weighing of every grain.

Phoenix Wright
04-11-2010, 01:59 PM
Sure. Since I'm extremely stubborn and have been doing nothing but research since I posted the theory. I have more answers than I have actually posted, I don't think I'll be switching over my theory anytime soon.

Actually, even if my theory was disproved in any way, I'll still go with it, a lot of points could stay valid if Tobi wasn't Obito, or if Madara wasn't in the coffin, etc.

mrsticky005
04-11-2010, 02:23 PM
There were a lot of Tobito haters that were sure to bash my thread in the first place. I was just waiting but I need clarification on whether you guys just disagree like most people, "Aw that's crap no way is it true!" Or are you a hater?

I disagree that Obito is Tobi. However nobody knows for sure. That I can agree on. This thread intends to use objectiveness and logic to figure
out the truth. Of course there is still bias but not as much as if I wanted
Tobi to be Obito.


Well technically I could say former Mizukage doesn't mean control, but I don't speak Japanese, so there's too much semantics involved to continue with this point.

Obito has no motivation to do actions that Madara has done. Minato said the man with the mask attack Konoha with the Nine-Tailed Fox, why would Tobi attack Konoha only couple years after his supposed death. It's unlikely he felt betrayed, he willingly offered his eye to Kakashi before his "death." (Him maybe I should have gone into that point first Oh, well)

Later "Madara" told Sasuke that he was planning to attack Konoha and the Uchiha plan. Itachi actually found him out as shown in volume 400.

Why would Obito would to destroy the Uchiha clan?

Also, Tobi at this point is looks quite similar to Madara early appearance. This doesn't say much because Obito could look like Madara as he would be in his early twenties at this point. However, we now know that nothing about Tobi's appearance at least masked says he isn't Madara.

It's heavily implied that with Mei becoming the 5th Mizukage that
the reign of the Bloody Mist Village was over. It's unknown
when it began but it likely ended with the end of the 4th Mizukage's reign.
Either Tobi was Mizukage 1, 2 or 3 and passed the torch to Yagura.
Or Yagura was being controlled by Tobi and although Yagura was the
figure head. Tobi was pulling the strings.

It's likely Yagura was being controlled by Tobi. Why? Because Yagura WAS being controlled. People don't seem to know that Tobi was Mizukage and
we can similar situations occurring with Pain and The Rain Village and
we can see how Tobi has control over Sasuke.

In Volume 44, Kisame is surprised when Tobi takes off his mask and
reveals who he is. Kisame even says that he did not expect this person
to be Tobi. Kisame calls this person Madara and the former Mizukage.
So at the very least, Tobi was known as Madara by at least Kisame
in the Hidden Mist Village. Since Kisame did not know Tobi was Madara and the Mizukage then it can't be said that Kisame would be in on any deception involving Tobi being Obito.

If Tobi was Obito then Obito would had to been Mizukage at one point
and be able to trick people into thinking he was Madara somehow.

Or...

Madara was using Obito's body. However that's another argument.

So let's just go with Obito was calling himself Madara to gain power of Mizukage.

Didn't you say before that we don't know that Madara used 9 tails?
Anywho, the 4th says that the masked Akatsuki (Tobi) used 9 tails.
Since Kisame recognized Tobi as Madara upon removal of his mask
then the masked Akatsuki in the 4th's flashback and Tobi are
the same and therefore the person Kisame recognized as Mizukage
and as Madara fought the 4th Hokage.

So if Tobi=Obito then Obito fought the 4th Hokage.

True. Obito has no motive. Perhaps he's just evil?

AkiraNeko
04-11-2010, 02:33 PM
I'm not really a hater or a lover, but in my opinion, how could Tobi=Obito=Madara be true? I mean, we've seen Madara/Tobi use his MS (I think), so how could Obito get Madara's MS?

However, Obito could have attacked the Uchiha Clan because he was a bit of the family outcast, and felt as though he had to be elite- but there's a lot of evidence to prove this wrong.

Anyways, I might be stalking this thread to see how the debate goes.

mrsticky005
04-11-2010, 02:35 PM
I'm not really a hater or a lover, but in my opinion, how could Tobi=Obito=Madara be true? I mean, we've seen Madara/Tobi use his MS (I think), so how could Obito get Madara's MS?

However, Obito could have attacked the Uchiha Clan because he was a bit of the family outcast, and felt as though he had to be elite- but there's a lot of evidence to prove this wrong.

Anyways, I might be stalking this thread to see how the debate goes.

Stalkers are welcome :D

The problem is when I start arguing against myself :P

Defcon
04-11-2010, 03:03 PM
Obito isn't tobi. Obito isn't evil.. if he were evil, he would never give his eye to Kakashi in the first place. He sacrificed himself to increase the survival chances of the team ..

Now if he were Tobi:
Imagine if he had the teleportation technique at that time, and he got himself teleported beneath the rocks.. :D He could've survived!

Tbh I am really sure Obito is not Tobi. I just hope Kishi thinks too ^^

mrsticky005
04-11-2010, 03:07 PM
Obito isn't tobi. Obito isn't evil.. if he were evil, he would never give his eye to Kakashi in the first place. He sacrificed himself to increase the survival chances of the team ..

Now if he were Tobi:
Imagine if he had the teleportation technique at that time, and he got himself teleported beneath the rocks.. :D He could've survived!

Tbh I am really sure Obito is not Tobi. I just hope Kishi thinks too ^^


Perhaps giving his eye to Kakashi is part of his brilliant master plan?

Defcon
04-11-2010, 03:13 PM
I can't see how that would fit in his master plan? Since Kakashi is opposing him now. It only makes things more difficult since Kakashi (who has sharingan thanks to him + MS) helped Naruto defeating Akatsuki members.. or atleast tried :P

mrsticky005
04-11-2010, 03:22 PM
I can't see how that would fit in his master plan? Since Kakashi is opposing him now. It only makes things more difficult since Kakashi (who has sharingan thanks to him + MS) helped Naruto defeating Akatsuki members.. or atleast tried :P


Yeah, I'm not exactly sure how it would work either...

That's the tough part about being Devil's Advocate.

But anywho...

Obito gave Kakashi his eye...because it was more challenging?

Wooster
04-11-2010, 03:54 PM
It's heavily implied that with Mei becoming the 5th Mizukage that
the reign of the Bloody Mist Village was over. It's unknown
when it began but it likely ended with the end of the 4th Mizukage's reign.
Either Tobi was Mizukage 1, 2 or 3 and passed the torch to Yagura.
Or Yagura was being controlled by Tobi and although Yagura was the
figure head. Tobi was pulling the strings.

It's likely Yagura was being controlled by Tobi. Why? Because Yagura WAS being controlled. People don't seem to know that Tobi was Mizukage and
we can similar situations occurring with Pain and The Rain Village and
we can see how Tobi has control over Sasuke.

In Volume 44, Kisame is surprised when Tobi takes off his mask and
reveals who he is. Kisame even says that he did not expect this person
to be Tobi. Kisame calls this person Madara and the former Mizukage.
So at the very least, Tobi was known as Madara by at least Kisame
in the Hidden Mist Village. Since Kisame did not know Tobi was Madara and the Mizukage then it can't be said that Kisame would be in on any deception involving Tobi being Obito.

If Tobi was Obito then Obito would had to been Mizukage at one point
and be able to trick people into thinking he was Madara somehow.

Or...

Madara was using Obito's body. However that's another argument.

So let's just go with Obito was calling himself Madara to gain power of Mizukage.

Didn't you say before that we don't know that Madara used 9 tails?
Anywho, the 4th says that the masked Akatsuki (Tobi) used 9 tails.
Since Kisame recognized Tobi as Madara upon removal of his mask
then the masked Akatsuki in the 4th's flashback and Tobi are
the same and therefore the person Kisame recognized as Mizukage
and as Madara fought the 4th Hokage.

So if Tobi=Obito then Obito fought the 4th Hokage.

True. Obito has no motive. Perhaps he's just evil?
Here's a good timeline. Blood Mist stopped when Zabuza was young, it was a consquence of his actions. Zabuza around Kakashi's age if not a bit older. Furthermore Yakura has to be Mizukage for a few years. Meaning that there's no way Obito could be controlling the village. He might not even had "died" yet. Therefore, either Obito is not Tobi or Mei became Mizukage only in the last few years. Yakura was before, and the Blood Mist time was still another Mizukage. If Obito is Tobi, this third Mizukage was not Tobi.

Oh, Oh you using my argument against me. I believe I am the only one that believes Madara didn't attack Konoha. It is commonly except that Minato said he did. But since we want the truth, not what's commonly accepted, we must let the objection stand. We don't know.

All that is important is that Minato knew Tobi was around. And thanks to both our arguments, I can show Obito is not Tobi using proof by contradiction.

Obito is Tobi:
The Nine Tails attack 12 years before the start of Naruto. Kakashi is ~26, thus he is 14 at the time of the Nine Tails attack. Obito is about the same age as Kakashi. Tobi, if he is to be Obito, would only be 14. Minato would definitely notice this masked man as only a boy. Not to mention likely his student, who died only two years before. So therefore this Tobi could not be Obito.

Maybe Obito became Tobi later. Nope, we already disproved that. Tobi has always been the same person. We know this do to Kisame.

Therefore, Obito is not Tobi.

mrsticky005
04-11-2010, 04:23 PM
Here's a good timeline. Blood Mist stopped when Zabuza was young, it was a consquence of his actions. Zabuza around Kakashi's age if not a bit older. Furthermore Yakura has to be Mizukage for a few years. Meaning that there's no way Obito could be controlling the village. He might not even had "died" yet. Therefore, either Obito is not Tobi or Mei became Mizukage only in the last few years. Yakura was before, and the Blood Mist time was still another Mizukage. If Obito is Tobi, this third Mizukage was not Tobi.

Oh, Oh you using my argument against me. I believe I am the only one that believes Madara didn't attack Konoha. It is commonly except that Minato said he did. But since we want the truth, not what's commonly accepted, we must let the objection stand. We don't know.

All that is important is that Minato knew Tobi was around. And thanks to both our arguments, I can show Obito is not Tobi using proof by contradiction.

Obito is Tobi:
The Nine Tails attack 12 years before the start of Naruto. Kakashi is ~26, thus he is 14 at the time of the Nine Tails attack. Obito is about the same age as Kakashi. Tobi, if he is to be Obito, would only be 14. Minato would definitely notice this masked man as only a boy. Not to mention likely his student, who died only two years before. So therefore this Tobi could not be Obito.

Maybe Obito became Tobi later. Nope, we already disproved that. Tobi has always been the same person. We know this do to Kisame.

Therefore, Obito is not Tobi.

I'm working on a time line.
Zabuza murdered his classmates a year after nine tails attacked.
A year after that Hidden Mist changed their policy.

Zabuza is actually a couple years younger than Kakashi.

Zabuza would of been 26 now and 22 when he fought Kakashi

Wooster
04-11-2010, 04:33 PM
I'm working on a time line.
Zabuza murdered his classmates a year after nine tails attacked.
A year after that Hidden Mist changed their policy.

Zabuza is actually a couple years younger than Kakashi.

Zabuza would of been 26 now and 22 when he fought Kakashi
Well that doesn't change the conclusion of my argument with Minato that one's solid. So Obito is not Tobi still stands. This makes sense though. Zabuza wasn't in the class, and he looked less than 10 years old.

But if Mei took over around then, Obito was much too young to have been involved to be controlling Yakura from the beginning.

mrsticky005
04-11-2010, 04:42 PM
Well that doesn't change the conclusion of my argument with Minato that one's solid. So Obito is not Tobi still stands. This makes sense though. Zabuza wasn't in the class, and he looked less than 10 years old.

But if Mei took over around then, Obito was much too young to have been involved to be controlling Yakura from the beginning.

Ok, I'm just saying that Zabuza is younger. It wasn't really an argument.
Also you keep writing Yakura. But the name is Yagura...unless perhaps
you have a different translation?

Wooster
04-11-2010, 04:43 PM
Ok, I'm just saying that Zabuza is younger. It wasn't really an argument.
Also you keep writing Yakura. But the name is Yagura...unless perhaps
you have a different translation?
No just a different translator in my brain today.;)
But my point was do you concede this debate?

mrsticky005
04-11-2010, 04:51 PM
No just a different translator in my brain today.;)
But my point was do you concede this debate?

Am I allowed to use hysterical and annoying oversized font with bad grammar and spelling as a counter argument?

like so

TOBI IS TEH OBITO! the NamES @re dah same. DUH! XD

Or should I call it quits?

Wooster
04-11-2010, 04:53 PM
We could repeat the argument over and over again as well.

mrsticky005
04-11-2010, 04:58 PM
We could repeat the argument over and over again as well.

Hmm I think we need a new topic.


Zetsu is the true mastermind behind Akatsuki

Wooster
04-11-2010, 05:04 PM
Hmm I think we need a new topic.


Zetsu is the true mastermind behind Akatsuki
Well we came to the obvious conclusion with the last debate, but I learned a crap-load about the Mist village. Who knows what that debate could reveal.
But I think someone else can do it this time. I've laid a perfect example of how to do it anyway.

mrsticky005
04-11-2010, 05:09 PM
Well we came to the obvious conclusion with the last debate, but I learned a crap-load about the Mist village. Who knows what that debate could reveal.
But I think someone else can do it this time. I've laid a perfect example of how to do it anyway.

Yeah.

Well in the meanwhile, if you're curious about when anything in Naruto happened post the event in the timeline thread I made.
I'm making a timeline so I can logically figure out when things happened.

Phoenix Wright
04-12-2010, 09:51 PM
Guys just want to pop in and tell you something.

If you actually believed in the theory you want others to try and disprove, it'd be harder to make you give up. That's why Devil's Advocates always fail IMO. On the other hand the person ends up believing it if they're stubborn enough.

Wooster
04-12-2010, 09:54 PM
Guys just want to pop in and tell you something.

If you actually believed in the theory you want others to try and disprove, it'd be harder to make you give up. That's why Devil's Advocates always fail IMO. On the other hand the person ends up believing it if they're stubborn enough.
Actually, not true UNLESS you're remaining belief doesn't follow logic.

The classic: "It's just what I think" garbage.

"If the facts change, I change my opinion. What do you do, sir?"

original uchiha
04-12-2010, 10:01 PM
Ah...true.

However Obito was lying. Calling himself Madara gives more credit.
how would obito find out about madara but since he was basiclly clan leader not to long ago i believe its about 30/100% possible

Wooster
04-12-2010, 10:05 PM
how would obito find out about madara but since he was basiclly clan leader not to long ago i believe its about 30/100% possible
We kinda of past this point now. But Madara might be talked about in a rebellious clan like the Uchiha. So he could have picked it up along the way.

But we found out that the possibility of Obito being Tobi 0%. The only possible way is for Kishimoto to drive a semi through the plot.

zerosameri
04-12-2010, 11:21 PM
Am I allowed to use hysterical and annoying oversized font with bad grammar and spelling as a counter argument?

like so

TOBI IS TEH OBITO! the NamES @re dah same. DUH! XD

Or should I call it quits?

Liek OMG ur soooo rite thair. Tobi iz teh Obito. `:P

mrsticky005
04-13-2010, 06:06 AM
Guys just want to pop in and tell you something.

If you actually believed in the theory you want others to try and disprove, it'd be harder to make you give up. That's why Devil's Advocates always fail IMO. On the other hand the person ends up believing it if they're stubborn enough.

I gave up because I couldn't counter Wooster's argument. I lost.



how would obito find out about madara but since he was basiclly clan leader not to long ago i believe its about 30/100% possible

It wouldn't be surprising if Obito knew who Madara was.
It would be surprising if Obito MET Madara or WAS Madara.

We kinda of past this point now. But Madara might be talked about in a rebellious clan like the Uchiha. So he could have picked it up along the way.

But we found out that the possibility of Obito being Tobi 0%. The only possible way is for Kishimoto to drive a semi through the plot.

Kishimoto: Floor it.!

Vrooom!!!

Liek OMG ur soooo rite thair. Tobi iz teh Obito. `:P

Hey! I think you're emoticon is teh Obito! Laugh out loudz!

Wooster
04-13-2010, 06:22 AM
Hey! I think you're emoticon is teh Obito! Laugh out loudz!
Everyone hear that? `:P is now the Obito=Tobi emoticon.

So let it be written.

So let it be done.

Obito is Tobi I know it.`:P

mrsticky005
04-13-2010, 08:43 AM
Everyone hear that? `:P is now the Obito=Tobi emoticon.

So let it be written.

So let it be done.

Obito is Tobi I know it.`:P

brilliant

tyler
04-13-2010, 10:36 AM
wasn't this supposed to be about Zetsu....why did I just read 3 pages of stupid Tobi = Obito logic?

Wooster
04-13-2010, 10:47 AM
wasn't this supposed to be about Zetsu....why did I just read 3 pages of stupid Tobi = Obito logic?

Title change.

This is the Devil's Advocate thread. Tobi=Obito has been disproven. You can start the Zetsu debate if you like.

tyler
04-13-2010, 10:53 AM
Title change.

This is the Devil's Advocate thread. Tobi=Obito has been disproven. You can start the Zetsu debate if you like.


Nah, Kishi will prove that Zetsu is the real master mind soon enough anyway

/sarcasm

mrsticky005
04-13-2010, 11:16 AM
Nah, Kishi will prove that Zetsu is the real master mind soon enough anyway

/sarcasm


I sense sarcasm in your response.

tyler
04-13-2010, 02:17 PM
I sense sarcasm in your response.

what gave it away?

mrsticky005
04-13-2010, 03:51 PM
what gave it away?

:cool:

zerosameri
04-13-2010, 04:23 PM
Hey! I think you're emoticon is teh Obito! Laugh out loudz! Teh Obito iz `:P Liek i never knew. Koool. Obito = `:P

Bratcipheo
04-15-2010, 05:38 PM
yo....i've come to counter your "flawless" argumentation.

Note that im not the devils advocate.I am the devil.

Your main argument seems to be a timeline problem.
Here's a good timeline. Blood Mist stopped when Zabuza was young, it was a consquence of his actions. Zabuza around Kakashi's age if not a bit older. Furthermore Yakura has to be Mizukage for a few years. Meaning that there's no way Obito could be controlling the village. He might not even had "died" yet. Therefore, either Obito is not Tobi or Mei became Mizukage only in the last few years. Yakura was before, and the Blood Mist time was still another Mizukage. If Obito is Tobi, this third Mizukage was not Tobi.


That would make Madara the mizukage impossible as well.Since Zabusa didn't see Tobi, Kisame did.
So Kisame see's tobi without a mask and realises he's been mizukage aswell as Madara. Kisame is young, he could believe Obito to be madara.Or even make joke about it.

Here timeline:
17-15 yrs ago

Madara becomes Mizukage (3) (Note Below!)

Yagura becomes Mizukage (4)

Zabuza attempts to asassinate Mizukage (Tobi/Yagura?)
Asassination fails.

Fourth takes Kakishi and Obito and Rin into land of Rock.
Obito dies after transferring Sharingan to Kakishi.
Kakishi uses Chidori with Sharingan.

Fourth becomes Hokage.

Kakishi masters Chidori.

Naruto born.
Kushina Uzumaki dies.

9 tails attacks village (Note: I do not believe Natural disaster. It was Madara again)
Recognizing that the Nine-Tails was being controlled by Madara Uchiha,
Minato decided to seal it in Naruto and give Konoha the means to combat Madara if he should ever attack the village again. (wiki)
Minato dies.
---

Is it me, or does it seem like you switch zabusa with kisame when needed?
Zabusa has no clue about tobi, he shouldn't even be mentioned.

Obito is Tobi:
The Nine Tails attack 12 years before the start of Naruto. Kakashi is ~26, thus he is 14 at the time of the Nine Tails attack. Obito is about the same age as Kakashi. Tobi, if he is to be Obito, would only be 14. Minato would definitely notice this masked man as only a boy. Not to mention likely his student, who died only two years before. So therefore this Tobi could not be Obito.

Maybe Obito became Tobi later. Nope, we already disproved that. Tobi has always been the same person. We know this do to Kisame.

Therefore, Obito is not Tobi.

This core of this argument lies in this:Minato would definitely notice this masked man as only a boy. Not to mention likely his student, who died only two years before.

Really?Now would he now?What a prove.2 years is a long time in naruto universe.In 2 years, naruto couldn't even do one replica, to being one of the strongest in the ninja world.


I guess this is enough, you'll need to clarify your exact points now.It needs to get more specific.

Wooster
04-15-2010, 05:57 PM
Is it me, or does it seem like you switch zabusa with kisame when needed?
Zabusa has no clue about tobi, he shouldn't even be mentioned.



This core of this argument lies in this:

Really?Now would he now?What a prove.2 years is a long time in naruto universe.In 2 years, naruto couldn't even do one replica, to being one of the strongest in the ninja world.


I guess this is enough, you'll need to clarify your exact points now.It needs to get more specific.
It's you. We were talking about Zabuza for another reason to establish a time line.

And since you can't understand that point I guess you force me to elaborate. The time line you used works well enough, except for the fact 17 years ago Kisame was not young he is quite old after all. But that is besides the point. Kisame knows "Madara's" face, who ever "Madara" happens to be. Kisame does not recognize "Tobi" until he removes his mask. This tells us Madara didn't wear his mask around Kisame. Therefore Tobi must be the same person Kisame knows as Madara. Is this "Madara" really Madara, who knows. "Madara" can say whatever he likes.

But you just admitted that at the beginning that it was Madara. Kisame forces it to be the same person. You lose.

Now if you want to state that Madara was never in Mist village, you fail again because Tobi is too young.

You just stated that Madara attacked Konoha or did you mean Tobi?
What ever the case, Minato saw him and later recognizes Tobi. Are you telling me he can recognize a masked man 16 years later, but not in two? Or more importantly that Kishimoto would write such a pile of steaming crap like that. He can mind you, but I will rake him across the coals if he does.

Bratcipheo
04-15-2010, 06:39 PM
Kisame knows "Madara's" face, who ever "Madara" happens to be. Kisame does not recognize "Tobi" until he removes his mask. This tells us Madara didn't wear his mask around Kisame. Therefore Tobi must be the same person Kisame knows as Madara. Is this "Madara" really Madara, who knows. "Madara" can say whatever he likesI agree with this.The person under the mask is know as madara to kisame.And he hasn't used the mask around him before.Thats all we know from this.

But you just admitted that at the beginning that it was Madara. Kisame forces it to be the same person. You lose.No idea what you're talking about.The one that kisame saw, is the one he acknowledges as madara, therefore it couldn't be the real madara.
So, real madara was never mizukage.The exact time when man behind the mask was mizukage isnt even known, thats quite a problem.

your counter would be:
Now if you want to state that Madara was never in Mist village, you fail again because Tobi is too young.
No tobi is not to young, guess you mean Obito here?I'll assume that.
Obito would only be to young, when the exact point in time is clarified when hes mizukage.But we dont know, we don't even know if he was controling any, or faking, or anything.We dont know.

You just stated that Madara attacked Konoha or did you mean Tobi?
What ever the case, Minato saw him and later recognizes Tobi. Are you telling me he can recognize a masked man 16 years later, but not in two?I meant Tobi attacked.It was clearly tobi.
;);););););););).com/Naruto/440/10/
( o n e m a n g a)
He saw a mask at the attack, and then he died, or put himself into naruto.
16 years later he see the man again through naruto, with the mask.Dont see the problem here.He never saw Tobi without a mask.Dont get your point here, its flawed.

Or more importantly that Kishimoto would write such a pile of steaming crap like that. He can mind you, but I will rake him across the coals if he does. You might laugh, im pretty sure that kishi didn't intend the fourth hokage to be naruto's father from the beginning.He added it because of the theory, that it fit and the fanbase.
Naruto vs. Neji fight would have been garbage then, well, kinda is even now.Naruto proved you can be something with determination and its not down to blood.Guess what, neji was right, it was blood.Hokage blood.
You can hear Jiraija's thoughts about Naruto several times when they meet.He would have pointed something out there, instead he thought of him as the jinshuriki boy and asked his name.
Well i like that he's his father now, but im quite sure it wasn't intended from the beginning, which is okay, look at bleach, author doesn't seem to look 10 chapters ahead.Well, i dont wanna discuss naruto's father now, but im just saying.Author doesn't give a crap about your theories, he makes the manga, if tobi becomes obito, then tobi were obito all along.
Because...dont you find it suspicious?....kakashi gaiden?...It's like a huge flashback...only to show kakashi's childhood and how he gained his sharingan.It has no value anymore, its crap, the hidden reason for kakashi gaiden is to introduce obito aswell, thats what i believe.So when obito actually becomes tobi, you cant object.They're to alike, maskform, only right eye, hair, personality, eye power(kakashi and tobi have both eyepowers that are nearly identical), so when tobi becomes obito, you cant complain.


But don't get me wrong.Im not entirely sure that hes fully obito, im rather on the line:Is anything about tobi, obito at all?Such as his body, soul, or just right eye.Anything, and im happy, since the point why i believe tobi is obito, or even if only partly, is because i suspect something happening with with kakashi there.The "Omg, obito?" or "It's his eye?..." emotional shock is just to big to ignore.

EDIT:What i also find interisting.They added kakashi gaiden later in the anime, right before the appearance of tobi i believe.Or around there.

Bratcipheo
04-15-2010, 06:47 PM
Haha just noticed what Yondaime says to naruto:
.com/Naruto/440/10/
( o n e m a n g a)

"A Man with a the mask. Back then... he saw through everything i did."

Is it a hint?...Well either the real Madara was just incredible strong, or....he knew how he would fight, his jutsu's, everything.Since he was his student, Obito.

Wooster
04-15-2010, 07:05 PM
I am not going to go point by point because strangely enough it seems we mostly agree.

However, I still think you missing two points. One: Kisame recognized "Madara" that means he has seen him before. That means whoever he is must always be the same person.

Two: The trouble with Minato is that the Obito was only what? 14, he should be a boy. The resemblances should have been obvious to Obito. Why Minato in Naruto's mind*sigh* recognizes this boy as the current man is beyond me. A 30 year old looks much like a 46 year old, a few more wrinkles sure. A 14 year old does not look like a 30 year old.

As for the rest, this where I really agree. I absolutely believe that the Fourth was not Naruto father in the beginning. I also believe Kishimoto screwed up the Jiraiya meeting. Sure you can fix that by saying he was just pretending he didn't know Naruto. Itachi Twist is the most problematic. But I am not going to bring that up, I already caught dozens upon dozens of posts raining down on me for suggesting that there are plot holes there.

I will not criticize anyone for strange theories about Tobi, I think he is Madara's ghost. NO ONE besides me believes that. With Kabtuo around Tobi can easily come back. Kishimoto loves repeating himself. Sarutobi vs. Orochimaru, Jiraiya vs. Nagato, probably Kakashi vs. Sasuke.

So since we've seen Orochimaru use the First and the Second versus Sarutobi IF Obito is dead, Kabtuo might use Obito if Kakashi becomes problematic. Heck, maybe Madara has been storing Obito, he did say he likes to collect Sharingan.

But I wouldn't base my hopes on a good story. I thought Danzo was the prefect counterpoint to Naruto. I thought there was going to be a clash of their world views. Nope, Kishimoto killed him off. I don't think Kishimoto wants to do anything that complicated. He's writing to his audience.

As I've said before I don't believe Obito can be Tobi. I only needed to convince myself. It is quite irrelevant to me if others want to believe that. It really is fine with me.

mrsticky005
04-15-2010, 07:12 PM
5 years before Nine Tails attacked Zabuza graduated from the Academy.

3 years before Nine Tails attacked Haku was born. Although we are not
given specific dates Haku lived through the Bloody Mist for some time.
Haku was probably around 7 years old when he joined up with Zabuza.
Zabuza tells Haku that he has to flee the Hidden Mist. So the failed
coup probably happened not too long before Zabuza was talking to Haku.

If Haku was 7 when he met Zabuza and that the failed coup happened not
long before (since Zabuza is leaving the Hidden Mist it should be only a day or two)
then the Bloody Mist was still going on 4 years after Nine Tails attacked Konoha.

Kakashi Gaiden happened 1 year before Nine tails attacked.

However if the Bloody Mist ended before Kakashi Gaiden then Haku would have been
just two years old when he met Zabuza which is highly unlikely seeing how Haku
appears MUCH older than two years old when he meets Zabuza.

It's also unlikely that the Bloody Mist had ended when Zabuza met Haku because
the threat of being there was from the era of the Bloody Mist.

Kisame is two years older than Zabuza. Both of them were of the 7 swordsman
of the Hidden Mist during the time it was The Bloody Mist. If they were
swordsman during the time of Kakashi Gaiden, Zabuza would have been 13
years old and Kisame would have been 15. Given how Chojurro appears
around the same age as Naruto that seems quite plausible.

MinatoUchiha
04-15-2010, 07:17 PM
Kakashi Gaiden happened 1 year before Nine tails attacked.

corrected you there...

Bratcipheo
04-15-2010, 07:21 PM
Im happy that we agree on some parts, allthough on the ghost thing.

Well, I think its easy why Minato recognised the 30 year old, which he saw as a 16 old before(2 years later right?) Well....they both got the same funny spiral mask you know, kinda an easy thing to recognise if you ask me.

The other problem was Kisame.Whats his exact age?When did he meet Tobi as madara/mizukage?When was he mizukage.I don't believe thats prooved exactly anywhere in the manga yet.It's to unsure.Kishi could easyly pull of a Kisame flashback, which then would funny enough fit the young obito-evil coming and being mizukage.Easely.I don't think its a question of, *can he make tobi obito?*, but * will he make tobi obito?* And i think indeed, he will.Thats the point of the mask anyway.Because:

Why on earth should madara wear a mask?I mean, for real.Why?Why should he keep it on even now.Conceal his idendity...no wait...he tells eveyrone hes madara.....ehm...why then?There's no reason.The reason is that we will get shocked when we finnaly see his face.That i can claim as a very likely fact.We will get stunned/shocked to see tobi's face.

Why?What else than him not being Madara?Or just ugly...

Wooster
04-15-2010, 07:23 PM
5 years before Nine Tails attacked Zabuza graduated from the Academy.

3 years before Nine Tails attacked Haku was born. Although we are not
given specific dates Haku lived through the Bloody Mist for some time.
Haku was probably around 7 years old when he joined up with Zabuza.
Zabuza tells Haku that he has to flee the Hidden Mist. So the failed
coup probably happened not too long before Zabuza was talking to Haku.

If Haku was 7 when he met Zabuza and that the failed coup happened not
long before (since Zabuza is leaving the Hidden Mist it should be only a day or two)
then the Bloody Mist was still going on 4 years after Nine Tails attacked Konoha.

Kakashi Gaiden happened 1 year after Nine tails attacked.

However if the Bloody Mist ended before Kakashi Gaiden then Haku would have been
just two years old when he met Zabuza which is highly unlikely seeing how Haku
appears MUCH older than two years old when he meets Zabuza.

It's also unlikely that the Bloody Mist had ended when Zabuza met Haku because
the threat of being there was from the era of the Bloody Mist.

Kisame is two years older than Zabuza. Both of them were of the 7 swordsman
of the Hidden Mist during the time it was The Bloody Mist. If they were
swordsman during the time of Kakashi Gaiden, Zabuza would have been 13
years old and Kisame would have been 15. Given how Chojurro appears
around the same age as Naruto that seems quite plausible.
Hmm...Hmm...I think you have just knocked one of the legs out from my stool. It be possible for Kisame to only know a "Madara" after the Nine Tails attack.

However, then Minato says that two different people are the same. Man you are sorta dumb Minato.

Fine I withdraw my argument that it's impossible for Obito to be Tobi. It still would be stupid. At least stupid on Minato's part.

Rotate
04-15-2010, 07:26 PM
Ok for those who don't know what playing the devil's advocate is
it's when you take the stance of an argument you don't agree with.
This is done to help strengthen your original argument. And is fun.

So for the record...I DON'T think Zetsu is the Akatsuki mastermind.


But for the sake of the devil's advocate argument thingamahjig...


Zetsu is the Akatsuki Mastermind

Prove me wrong. ;)
Zetsu isn't much of a fighter or a ploter so he really wouldn't be a good leader. All the akatsuki uses him for is to record battles so they determine how to work things out in their favor.

Wooster
04-15-2010, 07:28 PM
Im happy that we agree on some parts, allthough on the ghost thing.

Well, I think its easy why Minato recognised the 30 year old, which he saw as a 16 old before(2 years later right?) Well....they both got the same funny spiral mask you know, kinda an easy thing to recognise if you ask me.

The other problem was Kisame.Whats his exact age?When did he meet Tobi as madara/mizukage?When was he mizukage.I don't believe thats prooved exactly anywhere in the manga yet.It's to unsure.Kishi could easyly pull of a Kisame flashback, which then would funny enough fit the young obito-evil coming and being mizukage.Easely.I don't think its a question of, *can he make tobi obito?*, but * will he make tobi obito?* And i think indeed, he will.Thats the point of the mask anyway.Because:

Why on earth should madara wear a mask?I mean, for real.Why?Why should he keep it on even now.Conceal his idendity...no wait...he tells eveyrone hes madara.....ehm...why then?There's no reason.The reason is that we will get shocked when we finnaly see his face.That i can claim as a very likely fact.We will get stunned/shocked to see tobi's face.

Why?What else than him not being Madara?Or just ugly...
Of course you don't agree on the ghost thing. No one does. Mrsticky solved the problem with Kisame. Essentially in your favor. I must withdraw that argument. If anything Madara attacked the Ninetails and Kisame met Obito. If that's the assumption you want.

I think the mask only has to do with his eye. We kind of have seen alot of Tobi's face given all the angles. He looks like an older man. The only thing we haven't see is his eye. Obviously something is going on there. I don't know why it's hidden Tobi has a lot of sharingan. Even if he is Obito why not replace that eye?

But as I said, mrsticky blew up my theory, so I cannot without a doubt say Obito is not Tobi.

Bratcipheo
04-15-2010, 07:31 PM
Hmm...Hmm...I think you have just knocked one of the legs out from my stool. It be possible for Kisame to only know a "Madara" after the Nine Tails attack.

However, then Minato says that two different people are the same. Man you are sorta dumb Minato.

Fine I withdraw my argument that it's impossible for Obito to be Tobi. It still would be stupid. At least stupid on Minato's part.

QQ .;D, you could become a believer?Well then fast, while the iron is hot, read my arguments why obito is tobi, and why obito SHOULD be tobi.

http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=333&page=6

Wooster
04-15-2010, 07:51 PM
QQ .;D, you could become a believer?Well then fast, while the iron is hot, read my arguments why obito is tobi, and why obito SHOULD be tobi.

http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=333&page=6
Eh..Kishimoto has killed all my reason for wanted things after he killed Danzo. That was such a waste. I just think Kakashi is meant to fight and die against Sasuke. Kishimoto likes his student versus sensei battles. Too much Star Wars I guess.

I will no longer rage if Obito is Tobi. I will treat it the same as Itachi Twist with snark and sarcasm. Mmmm....now in two great flavors: evil and good.

mrsticky005
04-15-2010, 07:52 PM
Of course you don't agree on the ghost thing. No one does. Mrsticky solved the problem with Kisame. Essentially in your favor. I must withdraw that argument. If anything Madara attacked the Ninetails and Kisame met Obito. If that's the assumption you want.

I think the mask only has to do with his eye. We kind of have seen alot of Tobi's face given all the angles. He looks like an older man. The only thing we haven't see is his eye. Obviously something is going on there. I don't know why it's hidden Tobi has a lot of sharingan. Even if he is Obito why not replace that eye?

But as I said, mrsticky blew up my theory, so I cannot without a doubt say Obito is not Tobi.


Hmm I don't think what I wrote makes Tobi=Obito any more likely.

Observe.

Zabuza Graduated 5 years before Nine Tails attacked.
Zabuza Graduated during the Bloody Mist.
Haku was born 3 year before Nine Tails attacked.

Kakashi Gaiden happened 1 year before Nine Tails attacked.

Zabuza tells Haku that he has to leave the Hidden Mist which
strongly suggests that the Bloody Mist era is still going on.
If this happened before Kakashi Gaiden then Haku would have
been two years old when he met Zabuza. But if you look
at Haku he is clearly older than 2.

I say Haku was likely 7 years old. Which would put Zabuza and Haku's
meeting just two years before the Uchiha Massacre.

Madara's reign as Mizukage likely ended with Uchiha Massacre.


Let's pretend that Tobi is Obito. Tobi was the Mizukage according to Kisame and he was also Madara. So Obito would have to be acting
as both Madara and as Mizukage. Madara was most likely Mizukage
during the Bloody Mist Era. Zabuza graduated 5 years before
Nine Tails attacked. Obito would of been only 9 years old
if he was acting as Mizukage then. This is absurd.

Why? Because to be a 9 year old Mizukage he would to be both
powerful and clever. And if he was that powerful and clever
why does he let a boulder fall on himself?

Wooster
04-15-2010, 08:00 PM
I didn't say likely, just not impossible. Besides if Kisame is that young, the multiple Tobi theory comes into play. Madara could have been behind the scenes until the nine tails attack. At some point Kisame sees "Madara," but if he is young, he probably wouldn't meet "Madara" until he is older. Thus, he could have only met Obito.

Again not likely but possible. And with no plot holes! Oh wait, Minato can't notice that Tobi is two different people. Hey, it's hard to see in Naruto's mind.

I mean really think about that: Minato was living in Naruto's mind! That's horse manure. That really is worse than Obito being Tobi.

Hey, look we switched sides. I guess we didn't consider doing that.

mrsticky005
04-15-2010, 08:03 PM
I didn't say likely, just not impossible. Besides if Kisame is that young, the multiple Tobi theory comes into play. Madara could have been behind the scenes until the nine tails attack. At some point Kisame sees "Madara," but if he is young, he probably wouldn't meet "Madara" until he is older. Thus, he could have only met Obito.

Again not likely but possible. And with no plot holes! Oh wait, Minato can notice that Tobi is two different people. Hey, it's hard to see in Naruto's mind.

I mean really think about that: Minato was living in Naruto's mind! That's horse manure. That really is worse than Obito being Tobi.

Hey, look we switched sides. I guess we didn't consider doing that.

We need more specifics about this. Then we will able to nail this case.

Wooster
04-15-2010, 08:08 PM
We need more specifics about this. Then we will able to nail this case.
I think it's impossible. I didn't realize that Kisame was so young. If you go with two Tobi's pretty much anything is possible. My whole case rested on the fact that Kisame knew Madara, but if he was only involved after the Nine Tails attack, certainty is screwed.

mrsticky005
04-15-2010, 08:18 PM
I think it's impossible. I didn't realize that Kisame was so young. If you go with two Tobi's pretty much anything is possible. My whole case rested on the fact that Kisame knew Madara, but if he was only involved after the Nine Tails attack, certainty is screwed.

Don't worry. I'll be able to solve this case eventually.
I'll prove someday that Tobi is Madara and cannot be Obito.

Someday!!!!

Wooster
04-15-2010, 08:21 PM
Don't worry. I'll be able to solve this case eventually.
I'll prove someday that Tobi is Madara and cannot be Obito.

Someday!!!!
Actually before do that. Prove that Danzo and Naruto will have a battle of worlds colliding that will end all battles. If you can do that, I will believe anything you say.

mrsticky005
04-15-2010, 08:23 PM
Actually before do that. Prove that Danzo and Naruto will have a battle of worlds colliding that will end all battles. If you can do that, I will believe anything you say.

Do I LOOK like a miracle worker to you?