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C4 Karura
03-06-2010, 10:06 AM
Okay, I'm making this becuase I have several observations about the new chapter which I wouldn't be able to conveniently group any other way. Hopefully you'll enjoy this.

(I'm copying the text of the chapter from one of the spoiler threads, since it would take way too long to type it out myself.)


485: Close...and far away...

Cover: Naruto and Sasuke are facing each other

Uzumaki Naruto. Uchiha Sasuke. The drop-out and the elite. Valiance and hatred. A struggle with zero distance between them.
An okay cover. The text on the side kind of reminds you of what the relationship between thier characters was at the beginning of the series, and how much it's changed. Still, it's nothing special.

They finally exchange looks...
Naruto glares at Sasuke

Sasuke glares at Naruto
Taking the opportunity, Kakashi punches Sasuke
Sasuke's sent flying and perfectly lands on his feet
Wow. Since when can Kakashi punch a teenager (who must wiegh at least 175 pounds) 50 feet into the air? Random powerups ftw!

Kakashi: "You have better timing than me...Naruto. I didn't think that even you would be coming..but forget about that, you were a life-saver."

Sakura: "T-Thank you...Naruto"
Naruto: "Sasuke...Sakura's a member of Team 7, just as you are"
Sasuke's eyes are a pale shade: "Former-Team 7...I was"

Kakashi: "You understand how it is now, Naruto. Sasuke's no longer who he was in the past"
Pretty much all things we could tell would happen after last week's cliffhanger. Nothing interesting here.

Naruto: "Sasuke..."
Sasuke: "...What?!"

Naruto: "I heard the truth of Itachi from that guy Tobi! I don't really know whether it's lies or truth...but whatever it is, all that you're doing right now..."

Sakura: "!" (The truth of Itachi...?!)
Naruto: "I get it"
Kakashi: "!"
Sakura: "!?"
Sasuke: "...!"
Sakura finally learns that there's a reason Sasuke's changed so much, even if she doesn't know the details. Plus, we see that Naruto still understands and feels empathy for Sasuke.

Sasuke: "Naruto...I told you this before...how could someone like you, without parents, without a brother, how in the hell could you get me?"
Sasuke scowls at Naruto
Sasuke: "Others should be silent!"
Repeat of some Final Valley dialogue.

Sakura: ! "As if those are the thoughts Naruto regarded you with, Sasuke-kun! Whatever ill that was spoken of you, Naruto had always thought of you as a companion! Not only then but even now..."

Sasuke: "It was just right now....Just right now that I finally took vengeance on Itachi's behalf. I killed just one of Konoha's superiors, right at this spot...a guy called Danzou"
Kakashi: (...What?...That Danzou has been...?!)
Sakura: !
Sasuke: "It's a feeling I've never had. The feeling of the tainted Uchiha being purified-

The feeling of breaking the Uchiha away from the rotted-off world of shinobi-
In a sense, it's what you all of Konoha have always desired, what you've continued to deny the Uchiha since the start-

Just as you all desire, I'll erase the Uchiha from your memories-
By killing all of you, all of Konoha! Severing all those bonds will be that which brings the true revival of the Uchiha!"
Sasuke's explanation is ringing out
YES! Finally, we get an explanation of Sasuke's goal to destroy Konoha. Ever since his speech in Chapter 416, where he explained he's going to kill everyone in Konoha becuase some Konoha officials were the reason his brother was forced to kill the clan, he's been viewed as an irrational nutcase. His brother gave up everything to protect Konoha, and now he's going to honor his brother's memory by destroying it? It's seemed like a really bad case of irrational reasoning, until this. Now, finally him wanting to kill everyone in Konoha makes sense. The once-great Uchiha name has been tarnished beyond repair, and so he's going to kill all of Konoha, allowing all those things that ruined the Uchiha to fade into forgotten history. Does "restoring the Uchiha name" justify the mass-murder of thousands, if not millions, of innocent citizens? No. But now, for the first time, we can actually see how he thinks he's honoring his brother by killing Konoha. Kishi should've had him give this speech 30, if not 70, chapters ago.

Sakura: "Sasuke-kun..."

Kakashi: (...All that hatred piling up over history has formed Sasuke into who he is right now... it may not be clear to Naruto and Sakura that Sasuke's a victim of that era, but they feel it right through their very skin. That's the reason why...)

Naruto does Kage bunshin
Kakashi: "This is my duty, Naruto...Sakura. Disappear from this place"
Sakura: "But...Kakashi-sensei!"
Kakashi: "If you're here, you'll see something you don't want to....Go now!"
Sakura: "I...!"

Kakashi starts walking: "Sasuke won't die from the embedded poison you learned from Shizune that you put into your kunai...Orochimaru implanted him with the antibiotic resistance. Besides, [you] should already know how feel"

Sasuke prepares Chidori and starts walking
Karin: (Sasuke...I may have healed you...but this is it...no...I'm through...through with Sasuke...)
I think my site put it better: "Sasuke... I may have healed you a little, but this is too much... Actually... Forget it, I'm done with you..." This was the second-greatest moment in the chapter. For someone who spent two weeks debating that Karin wasn't a blind Sasuke fangirl, and she's wouldn't actually stay with him after he stabbed her, those two panels came as a moment of victory.

Naruto: "Kakashi-sensei, so you mean to...kill Sasuke?"

Kakashi: "...Go!"
The Kage Bunshin Naruto pins Kakashi's arms behind his back
Seriously... When Sakura disregarded Kakashi's orders, everyone was all, "How dare she do that?!" But I have yet to see a single person complain that Naruto ignored Kakashi's orders..

The real Naruto starts walking while making Rasengan
Sasuke also starts making Chidori on his left hand and starts walking: "There's an opening now! I won't be going easy on you!"

Kakashi: "Wait, Naruto!"
Sakura: "Naruto!"

They clash right in front of one another

Naruto: (Sasuke, maybe...maybe me and you were opposites...)
I know my site put it better than the "We're opposites..." line. ("It's funny, Sasuke... You and I could've easily... Been standing in each other's shoes right now..."). The "opposites" translation convinced a lot of people that them switching attacks was a literal event. It wasn't. It's a symbolic moment, that stands to show Naruto and Sasuke could've easily taken the other person's path. After all, just look at Chapter 49. If Orochimaru had decided to put the curse mark in Naruto instead, the whole series would've changed.

Let's imagine it: Kakashi, seeing that Naruto has the curse mark, decides that he has to personally oversee Naruto's training, to make sure he doesn't think about joining Orochimaru. This leaves Sasuke without a sensei, and he meets Jiriaya by chance. (After all, it was only chance that Naruto and Jiriaya met at the Hot Springs.) Meanwhile, Kakashi decides that it's a good idea to teach Naruto the Chidori. Even if it's not his Chakra type, he still might be able to learn it, and it's a powerful jutsu that he'll need for the Third Stage of the Chunin Exams. The curse mark prevents Naruto from fighting Gaara when he goes wild in the forest, so Sasuke must defeat him with something he learned from Jiriaya. Jiriaya takes Sasuke along with him to find Tsunade, so he never meets Itachi, and doesn't get obbsesed with vengeance. Kakashi and others protect Naruto from the Itachi team. Jiriaya teaches Rasengan to Sasuke while they're finding Tsunade. When they return, Naruto is frusterated that Sasuke is still, no matter how hard he tries, stronger than him. They fight, which Kakashi interrupts, but Naruto sees that Chidori isn't nearly as strong as the Rasengan. Fed up with his inability to beat Sasuke, and frusterated with his own weakness, he finally goes over to gain power from Orochimaru. Yes, he's giving up his dream of Hokage, but he's now convinced that he'll never gain enough power from Konoha to do so, and besides, this is the village that hated and traumatized him for the first 12 years of his life. What have they ever done for him?

Imagine this path continuing all the way to the current manga, and it's not so hard to imagine that they could've been standing where the other person is right now, Naruto determined to destroy Konoha for hating him for no reason all his life, and Sasuke desperate to stop him. I think this is one of the greatest symbolic moments in the series, definitly in the top 5.

Naruto: "Rasengan!"

Sasuke: "Chidori!'

決着はつかず。。。
The conclusion isn't settled...
------------------------------------------
The fading to white as they look at each other is a definite callback to Chapter 233.

Naruto and Sasuke look at each other

Naruto places a hand on his belly "I know how you feel...in the past everyone in the village hated me...
And the reason for that is the Kyuubi inside of me. ...in the past I hated everyone in the village as well
and I sometimes thought about revenge too...
If I held on to that...probably I would have thought terrible things like you...
I thought about who was a friend to me... I thought I didn't need bonds. And I met you and Iruka-sensei"
Sasuke: "..."
Naruto: "I knew you were always alone
Being just like you brought peace to me...and soon after I talked to you...and I was so happy!
But after that I stopped. You could do anything...and I was jealous of you. I decided you were my rival!
You became my goal.
No matter what, I held onto that bond. Team 7 started going on missions together.
I wanted to become strong like you. But I was always behind you, chasing your back"
Sasuke: "..."


Naruto, with a big smile on his face
Naruto: "I was so happy to meet you"
This whole speech was pretty much copied word-for-word from the Final Valley fight. What Kishi was thinking by reusing it, I have no idea.

Sasuke: "Naruto it's too late...you talked to me...but now it's too late to change me!!
I will completely wipe out you, the villagers and everyone else!!
At this point, your choice...killing me becoming the hero of the village!!
Or being killed by me, becoming a loser!!
Why is Sasuke talking to Naruto is if as long as Naruto decides to kill Sasuke, it's going to happen? Isn't Sasuke way too prideful for that?

Naruto looks at him squarely in the face, he decided
Naruto: "I won't be a loser against you! And I won't kill you and become an hero either! (my decision) is neither of them!!"
This is what I was worried would happen. I've been hoping for a long time that Kishi doesn't take the easy way out and have Sasuke be changed by Naruto, but it looks like that's what going to happen...

Chidori VS Rasengan
Anyway, this was an okay chapter. The good parts were really good, and the bad parts were only moderately bad.

I hope you enjoyed this. If you think I made some good, interesting observations, feel free to give me some rep. After all, that's what rep is for, isn't it? `;)

C4 Karura
03-06-2010, 11:01 AM
Ok, seriously? No replies?

mrsticky005
03-06-2010, 11:03 AM
Tumbleweed.
Crickets chirp.
Awkward Silence.

Wooster
03-06-2010, 11:05 AM
Do you really want me to reply? I don't know if I have the energy for this.

I didn't think the chapter was all that and a bag of chips. I'll read through your arguements and respond if the mood takes me.

Twisterty
03-06-2010, 11:13 AM
Honestly, i wanted them to fight and a make it like a more intese Final Valley like fight, but it looks like that he might try to change sasuke just like he died Pien/Nagato. To badd >_>

Defcon
03-06-2010, 11:51 AM
Tell me, why would Orochimaru ever give (big) powers to Naruto? Orochimaru trained Sasuke so he could eventually take over his body. But yeah Naruto could've been in Sasuke's place but by taking a different path. Still .. With Akatsuki hunting Naruto I doubt he would get far without proper training. He was protected by one of the three great ninjas remember ..

C4 Karura
03-06-2010, 11:59 AM
@Defcon: Orochimaru is also one of the Sannin. Oro would've been confident that he could keep Naruto under control, just as was with Sasuke.

Nine-TailedSage_Naruto
03-06-2010, 12:37 PM
i posted this a while back in another thread
it was a really nice symbolism of how naruto and sasuke could be in each others shoes had things gone just a little differently....the expression on sasuke face was a nice touch too...

as a few ppl before me mentioned....i dont think oro's curse mark would be the turning point for naruto...
Because unlike sasuke...naruto always had all the power he needed...he WAS the ultimate weapon...he dint some stupid curse mark...piss him off enough and he could probably destroyed the whole village on his own..

i think that for naruto the turning point(not good-bad this is a bad-good turning point ) was iruka telling mizuki that he dint think naruto was a beast and that he though naruto was one of kind etc
now remember how pissed off naruto had got when mizuki had said that he would pour all his anger into the scroll and destroy the village because thats how beasts were and iruka had said yes(which made naruto think that even iruka thought that he was a beast and even the one person he admired hated him...which now that i think about it...was what had happened to gaara). At that instance if naruto had just ran away got angry and not waited for iruka to finish talking...then he would probably have been siting in a corner somewhere and thinking about how much he hated the village and eventually might even have had released the fox in his anger....but that dint happen...after naruto heard what iruka had to say he realized that were was someone who cared about him...and thats when he gave must have given up his thoughts of revenge...

Defcon
03-06-2010, 01:05 PM
@Defcon: Orochimaru is also one of the Sannin. Oro would've been confident that he could keep Naruto under control, just as was with Sasuke.


Oro doesn't have any interest in Naruto, his objective is to collect all jutsu, therefor he needs the sharingan and a body that can control the eye to its full potential.

You could say he has some interest in the kyuubi, but then again, he was planning to deliver Naruto to Danzo anyway. Remember the eyes he collected for Danzo and the DNA he recuperated from the first hokage; just so Danzo could control the kyuubi. If he wanted a tailed beast, he could've gone after Gaara in the first place - he was working together with the Sand when he attacked Konoha.


And yes I know Orochimaru is one of the Sannin, I was referring to the fact that there is no one else who could've trained Naruto better than Jiraiya himself at the time.

@Nine-TailedSage_Naruto, that could've been a realistic alternative for Naruto.

C4 Karura
03-06-2010, 01:12 PM
Nice posts, everyone. Anyway, I guess you guys are right about Oro not wanting Naruto and Naruto's turning point coming much earlier in the series. I was just trying to make an example of how one event could've changed everything. Still, if just a few events in Part 1 had happened differently, they really could've been in the other person's shoes at that moment.

Defcon
03-06-2010, 01:24 PM
Jup, that could've been the case. Nice post btw.. but I can't give you "rep" for it because I don't have it or don't know how to give it heh. :P

C4 Karura
03-06-2010, 01:29 PM
You don't have to give me rep, but do you see the scale beneath the avatar to the left on each post? Click on that, select whether to Up or Down Rep them, and then leave a comment explaining why you did it. (It's best if you leave your name as well.) Don't abuse the system, though, or you can get in trouble.

Narutorious
03-06-2010, 01:31 PM
Wow. Since when can Kakashi punch a teenager (who must wiegh at least 175 pounds) 50 feet into the air? Random powerups ftw!


Just to comment on this, you are overestimated how big these people actually are, I'm sure Sasuke is only about 53 kg in part 2, which when convert is only about 125 lbs.

C4 Karura
03-06-2010, 01:34 PM
Ok, but that's still an incredible feat.

philippe
03-06-2010, 01:34 PM
Jiraya training Naruto wasn`t an accident at all. The first time they met, Jiraya knew exatly that he wants to train Naruto

Chapter 143, page 4,5...9...

C4 Karura
03-06-2010, 01:40 PM
I looked at your references, and I don't get how they're related to your post at all. Jiriaya meeting Naruto was an accident, and he definitely didn't want to train Naruto when they first met.

philippe
03-06-2010, 01:46 PM
OMG, you can`t be serious.

Ch 143, page 5...Jiraya to Kakashi: Let me take care of Naruto.

CH143, page 9..again Jiraya to Kakashi: Before the real chuunin exam starts, please leave Naruto to me. (This proves, that it is the time when Kakashi was with Sasuke before the chuunin exams)

I don`t get, what you don`t understand,

Jiraya wanted to train Naruto all the time. He knew about the Kyubi, and off course that he is Minatos son so he wanted to train him and them meeting was far from an accident.

C4 Karura
03-06-2010, 01:51 PM
Look at Chapters 90-91. (Oh, and I guess I missed those lines where he was talking about Naruto. Still, this is after he's met Naruto and decided to train him.)

philippe
03-06-2010, 02:04 PM
I know those chapters. And? That doesn`t say anything about them accidentaly meeting. If you are pointing to the fact, that Jiraya wasn`t all like...Ooooh Naruto can I please train you...so it does make sense, since we know how Naruto was back then. If Jiraya was like that, Naruto would become to confident and anoying. But Jiraya knew all the time what he has to do.

If that meeting was an accident, how would he know right away that he is Minatos son and has the Kyuubi inside him? He wouldn`t. He went there with a certain goal. He was observing Narutos training before they got to do some talking.

C4 Karura
03-06-2010, 02:06 PM
-_-... Read the chapters. He has no idea who Naruto is. It's entirely chance that they meet. It's only upon seeing the seal on Naruto's stomach that he realizes who he is.

Wooster
03-06-2010, 02:12 PM
-_-... Read the chapters. He has no idea who Naruto is. It's entirely chance that they meet. It's only upon seeing the seal on Naruto's stomach that he realizes who he is.
This isn't true, well the retcon later makes it untrue. During the flashback that Kakashi had, Jiraiya makes it clear he wants to train Naruto, which is before the end of the chunin exam.

It's never stated, but Jiraiya only made it look like it was a chance meeting. Jiraiya also said he wasn't following Orochimaru, obviously that wasn't true. It was nearly his life goal. He must have only talked about Orochimaru to Kakashi and Hiruzen though.

philippe
03-06-2010, 02:15 PM
What I already posted, what Jiraya said to Kakashi in 143 proves that I`m right, you just don`t want to admit it. If he had found out who Naruto is only when they met, wouldn`t he be at least surprised? He would, but he wasn`t.

In 143 he is talking to Kakashi and talking about the Nine-tails sealed in Naruto, so how could he possibly only find out when they met??? He already knew before he met Naruto in person.

C4 Karura
03-06-2010, 02:31 PM
If Kakashi and Jiriaya had planned before the Hot Springs that Jiriaya would train him, then why would Kakashi tell Naruto Ebisu was teaching him? That flashback happened sometime after Jiriaya met Naruto, but before the Third Stage of the Chunin Exams.

Wooster
03-06-2010, 02:32 PM
Here's my official response to your comments. I will be general because I don't think it's worth it to go point by point.

I'm glad you think that most of this was a copy of the Final valley. It was virtually a flashback except it wasn't, kind of strange. I don't know if this was laziness on Kishimoto's part or that he thought he needed to summarise it because it happened so long ago in real time.

Karin moment, eh I don't really. I just glad Sasuke will no longer get her free health upgrades. Also Sasuke trying to kill her didn't really change her mind, she did want to see him before she died. It almost seems how Sasuke treated Sakura and Sakura's reaction changed Karin. Look at that Sakura's becoming Naruto. Heh.

I think the trading places symbolism is hackneyed at best. It was okay, but the Gaara and Naruto symbolism is much better. Especially, the part at the end with Gamabunta's sword between them. That half and half was striking and subtle at the same time.

Secondly, I don't think it's true. Naruto is nothing like Sasuke that's why he is different. When Naruto faces adversity he tries harder, Sasuke just gets whatever he wants, that is he is spoiled. Even if Kakashi trained Naruto and Jiraiya trained Sasuke, I imagine the exact same events would have occured. Only this time Sasuke would be upset that the chidori was nearly as strong as the rasengan. Naruto acted like a prankser, and Sasuke sulked. The have completely different outlooks on life even if the were handed similar unfortunate childhoods.

I agree that Sasuke may becoming back around. I disagree that it is bad. To this point Sasuke has been a pathetic villian. Right after he killed Danzo, he was at his best; however, that moment didn't last long. If Sasuke can be a likable villian(I mean great to hate) then he might as well stop being a villian.

I think a contrite Sasuke could be interesting as well, especially since he would no longer have the sharingan and be nearly blind, but you can see my The Blind Ninja thread for my thoughts on that idea.

Overall, you have summarized the chapter pretty much how it occured. But my estimation is that this is a transition chpater, and thus not really good if not outright bad.

Wooster
03-06-2010, 02:35 PM
If Kakashi and Jiriaya had planned before the Hot Springs that Jiriaya would train him, then why would Kakashi tell Naruto Ebisu was teaching him? That flashback happened sometime after Jiriaya met Naruto, but before the Third Stage of the Chunin Exams.
But Kakashi was outside the village training Sasuke during that time. If that isn't true why was everyone wondering where Sasuke was?

It just makes sense that Jiraiya knew who Naruto was but didn't want to let on. Ebisu was just used so Jiraiya could watch Naruto without Naruto being aware. Clearly Ebisu didn't know he was being used.

philippe
03-06-2010, 02:37 PM
That flashback didn`t happen after Jiraya met naruto and before the third stage of the Chuunin exmas. Why?

In the flashback Jiraya told Kakashi, to take care of Sasuke.

When Jiraya and Naruto met, Kakashi was already training Sasuke.

As for Ebisu. It`s like Jiraya acting like he doesn`t know naruto when they met. He simply wanted it that way, je didn`t want Naruto to know, that Jiraya wants to train him. Him thinking, that he is training him because he persuated him to, made naruto feel better. Thats it.

C4 Karura
03-06-2010, 02:43 PM
Here's my official response to your comments. I will be general because I don't think it's worth it to go point by point.

I'm glad you think that most of this was a copy of the Final valley. It was virtually a flashback except it wasn't, kind of strange. I don't know if this was laziness on Kishimoto's part or that he thought he needed to summarise it because it happened so long ago in real time.

Karin moment, eh I don't really. I just glad Sasuke will no longer get her free health upgrades. Also Sasuke trying to kill her didn't really change her mind, she did want to see him before she died. It almost seems how Sasuke treated Sakura and Sakura's reaction changed Karin. Look at that Sakura's becoming Naruto. Heh.
Maybe.
I think the trading places symbolism is hackneyed at best. It was okay, but the Gaara and Naruto symbolism is much better. Especially, the part at the end with Gamabunta's sword between them. That half and half was striking and subtle at the same time.
It certaintly wasn't as great as the Gaara one, but it still stands for so much more than them switching attacks. You may think it's a gimmick, but how else is Kishi going to get people to realized that they switched places? Even with it, a few people still didn't get it.
Secondly, I don't think it's true. Naruto is nothing like Sasuke that's why he is different. When Naruto faces adversity he tries harder, Sasuke just gets whatever he wants, that is he is spoiled. Even if Kakashi trained Naruto and Jiraiya trained Sasuke, I imagine the exact same events would have occured. Only this time Sasuke would be upset that the chidori was nearly as strong as the rasengan. Naruto acted like a prankser, and Sasuke sulked. The have completely different outlooks on life even if the were handed similar unfortunate childhoods.
I discussed this with other people, and we decided this: Even if Oro had given Naruto the curse mark, he still wouldn't have used it. His turning point came much earlier in series, back in Chapter 1, when he finds out that he's the Nine-Tails jinchuriki, and that's why everyone hates him. If Iruka hadn't stood up for him, he might've decided to make everyone in the Leaf Village pay, like Mizuki wanted.
I agree that Sasuke may becoming back around. I disagree that it is bad. To this point Sasuke has been a pathetic villian. Right after he killed Danzo, he was at his best; however, that moment didn't last long. If Sasuke can be a likable villian(I mean great to hate) then he might as well stop being a villian.

I think a contrite Sasuke could be interesting as well, especially since he would no longer have the sharingan and be nearly blind, but you can see my The Blind Ninja thread for my thoughts on that idea.
"The Blind Ninja" thread was definitely an interesting theory, and one of the few ways I'll be able to accept Kishi making him good again.
Overall, you have summarized the chapter pretty much how it occured. But my estimation is that this is a transition chpater, and thus not really good if not outright bad.
Sorry. I just wanted to point out a few things with this thread, like how much Sasuke's speech in this chapter means, even though nobody seemed to notice it.

C4 Karura
03-06-2010, 02:56 PM
But Kakashi was outside the village training Sasuke during that time. If that isn't true why was everyone wondering where Sasuke was?

It just makes sense that Jiraiya knew who Naruto was but didn't want to let on. Ebisu was just used so Jiraiya could watch Naruto without Naruto being aware. Clearly Ebisu didn't know he was being used.
Ok, but why would he need to use Ebisu? Why couldn't he just send Naruto directly to Jiriaya? Also, they could have talked before Kakashi left the village. 15 days pass between when Naruto starts being trained by Jiriaya, and when we first see that Kakashi's left the village.
That flashback didn`t happen after Jiraya met naruto and before the third stage of the Chuunin exmas. Why?

In the flashback Jiraya told Kakashi, to take care of Sasuke.

When Jiraya and Naruto met, Kakashi was already training Sasuke.

As for Ebisu. It`s like Jiraya acting like he doesn`t know naruto when they met. He simply wanted it that way, je didn`t want Naruto to know, that Jiraya wants to train him. Him thinking, that he is training him because he persuated him to, made naruto feel better. Thats it.
Jiriaya tells Kakashi, "For now, focus on Sasuke... It's up to you to teach him how to use his Sharingan... Especially since Itachi's part of the organization."

Kakashi's already been training Sasuke. Jiriaya's telling him that he doesn't need to worry about Naruto, but to focus his efforts on training Sasuke.

Wooster
03-06-2010, 02:57 PM
It certaintly wasn't as great as the Gaara one, but it still stands for so much more than them switching attacks. You may think it's a gimmick, but how else is Kishi going to get people to realized that they switched places? Even with it, a few people still didn't get it.
Well some people are stupid or maybe just don't read carefully. Besides just becasue it's the only way doesn't mean I need to praise Kishimoto for it. That's like praising Kishimoto for drawing a kunai during an attack. It's necessary, but not anything special.

As I said I don't see the point of them switching places. It makes sense that out of anyone Naruto can understand Sasuke, but not so much that he believes he could have been Sasuke.


I discussed this with other people, and we decided this: Even if Oro had given Naruto the curse mark, he still wouldn't have used it. His turning point came much earlier in series, back in Chapter 1, when he finds out that he's the Nine-Tails jinchuriki, and that's why everyone hates him. If Iruka hadn't stood up for him, he might've decided to make everyone in the Leaf Village pay, like Mizuki wanted.

Iruka did change Naruto, but it was from a prankster to a serious, never-give-up ninja. The worst that would of happen would be that Naruto would run away. Then I suppose he could have been attacked by the village and turned into the nine-tailed fox, but that's not quite the same as wanting revenge on the village.

Sasuke was brooding jerk even though everyone liked him, for somewhat understandable reasons, his whole clan was killed.

But the biggest difference between Naruto and Sasuke is how they handle adversity. I imagine that is because everything came easy to Sasuke, but was a struggle for Naruto. In short, they are inherently two different people, so even with the same circumstances, they react differently.

Wooster
03-06-2010, 03:02 PM
Ok, but why would he need to use Ebisu? Why couldn't he just send Naruto directly to Jiriaya? Also, they could have talked before Kakashi left the village. 15 days pass between when Naruto starts being trained by Jiriaya, and when we first see that Kakashi's left the village.

Jiriaya tells Kakashi, "For now, focus on Sasuke... It's up to you to teach him how to use his Sharingan... Especially since Itachi's part of the organization."

Kakashi's already been training Sasuke. Jiriaya's telling him that he doesn't need to worry about Naruto, but to focus his efforts on training Sasuke.
It's never going to make complete sense because as I said it was retconed in. Jiraiya also told Ebisu he wasn't following Orochimaru, we know that wasn't true. Clearly the original intent was Jiraiya met Naruto by chance. Obviously later Kishimoto wanted Jiraiya to be the tracker of Orochimaru and the Akatsuki. To do that Jiraiya needs to know everything about Akatsuki and thus the tailed beasts. Obviously, Jiraiya has to know Naruto because he has all the seals for the nine tails. Not to mention Naruto was named after his character in the book.

The best we can do is assume Jiraiya was just acting like Naruto and he met by chance. It works all right becasue the retcon happened very close to the actual events.

C4 Karura
03-06-2010, 03:16 PM
It's never going to make complete sense because as I said it was retconed in. Jiraiya also told Ebisu he wasn't following Orochimaru, we know that wasn't true. Clearly the original intent was Jiraiya met Naruto by chance. Obviously later Kishimoto wanted Jiraiya to be the tracker of Orochimaru and the Akatsuki. To do that Jiraiya needs to know everything about Akatsuki and thus the tailed beasts. Obviously, Jiraiya has to know Naruto because he has all the seals for the nine tails. Not to mention Naruto was named after his character in the book.

The best we can do is assume Jiraiya was just acting like Naruto and he met by chance. It works all right becasue the retcon happened very close to the actual events.
I'm going to agree with this opinion in the debate. Thanks for explaining it so well, Wooster.

Wooster
03-06-2010, 03:26 PM
I'm going to agree with this opinion in the debate. Thanks for explaining it so well, Wooster.
Just be careful. For some reason people get upset if you question the plot at all. They think Kishimoto has had the whole plot in his head from the very beginning, which is just not true. But you saw my When bears attack thread.

C4 Karura
03-06-2010, 03:57 PM
Just be careful. For some reason people get upset if you question the plot at all. They think Kishimoto has had the whole plot in his head from the very beginning, which is just not true. But you saw my When bears attack thread.
Yep! `:P Darn, you keep on making posts that I want to give you rep for, and then get a message saying I have to spread it around first. (Not on this post, but on several previous ones in the thread.)

sardns
03-06-2010, 04:09 PM
I actually thought it was kind of significant that Sakura yelled at Sasuke. I mean, when has she done that before?

C4 Karura
03-06-2010, 04:14 PM
I actually thought it was kind of significant that Sakura yelled at Sasuke. I mean, when has she done that before?
When Sasuke left the village. But her being angry at him is kind of new.

Wooster
03-06-2010, 09:54 PM
Yep! `:P Darn, you keep on making posts that I want to give you rep for, and then get a message saying I have to spread it around first. (Not on this post, but on several previous ones in the thread.)
Don't worry about it. I have yet to up rep anyone twice because I can't. I suppose I should be upping my reps. I gotta build those pecs.

dillydally
03-06-2010, 11:05 PM
I agree with C4 mostly. I thought it was a good chapter (I jump for joy when Karin gave up on sasuke). Although I was dissapoint how blunt the symbolism was, it could of been so much better if it were subtle, but I like the message it gave so I'll forgive that.

The only part of your agrument that I disagree with is the part were you said that Sasuke seems less crazy after this chapter; mainly because even tho he now explain his reasoning, his plan still sound really messed up. Ontop of that Sasuke is also acting way more pychodic than before too, so I still think he is a completee nut job.

C4 Karura
03-07-2010, 01:53 PM
I agree with C4 mostly. I thought it was a good chapter (I jump for joy when Karin gave up on sasuke). Although I was dissapoint how blunt the symbolism was, it could of been so much better if it were subtle, but I like the message it gave so I'll forgive that.

The only part of your agrument that I disagree with is the part were you said that Sasuke seems less crazy after this chapter; mainly because even tho he now explain his reasoning, his plan still sound really messed up. Ontop of that Sasuke is also acting way more pychodic than before too, so I still think he is a completee nut job.
No, Sasuke is definitely crazy. I was just saying that now we actually understand how he thinks he's doing the right thing.

SasukeFallen
03-07-2010, 01:57 PM
I for one am someone that found the symbolism in this chapter as striking. Though, I do agree when people say that the timing of the reunion seem rushed and misplaced(up until a few chapters back when we saw Naruto head out after Kakashi and Sakura, it still apeared Kishi would have had them make it too late and the reunion would have been held off until a more epic, Madara-involved moment).

Also, as for the repitition of the FV speech(s), it seems almost everyone dosen't get why Kishi didn't come up with something new, thinking he was lazy or they just don't get it. IMO, this was supossed to be symbolic in itself, what was being said wasn't important, but the fact that it was, was important. I helps to show that things are differnt, yet exactly the same.

It's kind of like the whole FV fight is comming full circle and it's a throwback to what happened last time. IMO, it's surving to show that this fight will be that type of decisive battle, do or die(literaly this time). Sasuke's fate will hang on the outcome of this fight. Though, the very fact that the diolouge changed at the end suggest that the outcome will not be the same.(Though this is just a prediction and I could very well be wrong). So that means, IMO, what ever happens, Sasuke won't be just walking away, following the path he had decided before the battle. So that leaves about 2 options I can think up off the top of my head.

1)Sasuke's death.
2)Sasuke set on a path that would lead him to switching sides(Or atleast not the plan to eliminate Konoha.)

My analysis of it and how the rest of the series has played out, I would say Kishi is most likely setting up for #2. I love/hate it. I love it because it would fit most with the Naruto story and wouldn't seem like something Kishi just pulled out of his :p;);). That and it would give everything thats happened in shippuden a purpose, I mean if you were gonna have Sasuke die in the end and have everything Naruto beleves in tossed out the windown and ran over by a truck, why make shippuden? Though I hate it because it so very predictable, over used even, and it's not like it would be like finally stitching up an old wound, i'd be like the wound never existed. As you can see, I'm very back and forth, lol.

I personally liked this chapter, The fact that it was all symbolism was a refresher from the usual fight and/or exposition chapters we've had going on for a long time now.

Nine-TailedSage_Naruto
03-07-2010, 02:53 PM
Ok, but that's still an incredible feat.

You forget this is naruto...People can walk on water and walls,make the moon, and jumo 20 feet in the air....`@x)

*Talim of the moonlight*
03-07-2010, 04:21 PM
Honestly, i wanted them to fight and a make it like a more intese Final Valley like fight, but it looks like that he might try to change sasuke just like he died Pien/Nagato. To badd >_>
Neh, it's tooo early for them to fight it out like they did in the final valley. It has to be at the perfect place and at the perfect timing.`:)

narutonhinataschild
03-07-2010, 05:47 PM
Sorry. I just wanted to point out a few things with this thread, like how much Sasuke's speech in this chapter means, even though nobody seemed to notice it.


its not the first time sasuke referenced Itache and his clan as a reason for his revenge. :oops:

C4 Karura
03-08-2010, 09:59 PM
Yeah, but all of his previous rants made him seem incredibly illogical, going against his brother's wishes, and attacking all of Konoha for something a few elders did. This is the first time we get a rant that makes us understand how he thinks he's doing the right thing for his brother.