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View Full Version : The Case For Not Hating Sakura After Chapter 484


C4 Karura
02-26-2010, 05:09 PM
***SPOILERS***

READ THROUGH THE WHOLE THING BEFORE YOU REPLY. SERIOUSLY, SO MANY TIMES, I'LL MAKE A LONG CASE IN MY OP, AND PEOPLE WON'T BOTHER TO READ IT ALL. THEN, THEY MAKE COUNTERARGUMENTS CONTAINING THINGS I 100% PERCENT DISPROVED IN MY OP. IT'S REALLY ANNOYING.


All right, Chapter 484 seems to have unleashed new waves of hatred for Sakura's character. In it, she has the chance to stab Sasuke in the back, and finally end the Sasuke storyline, which stopped being interesting (with few exceptions) about 25 chapters ago. However, she is racked with indecision, and stops less than inch from his back. This has caused about 60% of all Chapter 484-related posts to be whining about Sakura not killing him.

They all seem to revolve around the theme: "Grrr... Sakura's such a crybaby! She's whining about everything! Seriously, MAKE YOUR MIND UP ABOUT SASUKE, YOU LOSER! She needs to die, and soon..."

I think this is where they're being completely blind to vast majorities of the recent story, and only noticing the parts that support thier whining. Maybe, if they were actually paying attention, they'd notice how much has changed in the last 35 chapters.

For about 175 chapters, from after the Sasori fight to when she decided to kill Sasuke herself, she bacame a pathetic, weak character. When Part 2 started she and Naruto were on the same level. She actually had a fair chance at beating him, if it weren't for Shadow Clone Spamming. Then, after the Sasori fight, she fell out the spotlight completely. She appeared in arcs, for sure, but she stopped doing anything that mattered. Without the constant stream of powerups that the rest of the characters were getting, she quickly fell behind and became a weakling. Then, about 15 chapters ago, she made the decision to kill Sasuke herself, and all of a sudden became a valid character again. However, most people clung to the image they had had of her for the past 3 years, and failed to notice how increasingly great her character was becoming.


Here's my case for why her hesitating to kill Sasuke doesn't make her hateable:

Everything from Page 16 of Chapter 456 onwards takes place on the same day. That's right. The current day in Naruto started back in July 2009. Seven months ago. Now, I could spend a very long time explaining why it's impossible for a day to have passed. However, I'm already spending quite a bit of my time making the "Pro-Sakura" case. Inevitably, someone will say, "Prove it," and when they do, I'll go and make the very long case, but for now I'm just finishing this up.

Anyway, that means that on the morning of this "day", Sakura was in Tsunade's tent with Shizune, until around the time the meeting started. She was still totally convinced (like much of the fandom), that Sasuke could be saved. Then, Sai and Shikamaru came in and explained that Sasuke was going to be killed by the Konaha 11. All her closest friends are telling her (with very persuasive arguments) why it's the best decision to kill Sasuke. The realization that they might be right causes her to break down crying. Even though she has a very good reason to be upset and crying, the fandom instantly decides that this makes her "a crybaby".

She decides to go and talk to Naruto herself, and explain to him that killing Sasuke is a viable option. However, when she sees him, she decides that she has always relied on him him too much, and that it's time to finally do something for him.

Becuase of this, she goes up to him and gives a fake speech in order to help him get over her. She knows that once she kills Sasuke, he'll hate her for doing so. And so she tells him that she no longer wants him to keep the promise he made to her 3 years ago (to bring Sasuke back). She explains that she no longer loves Sasuke, and loves him instead. She does all this becuase she knows it'll make Naruto angry with her, so he'll feel less betrayed when he finds out she killed Sasuke. However, Naruto can tell that she's lying and still loves Sasuke. She fake-storms off, and thinks to herself, "Naruto! I'm sorry!" Then she asks Kiba to find Sasuke for her.

As soon as she finds out from Kiba where Sasuke is, she tries to put the rest of her team to sleep. She knows that even with all 4 of them they're still no match for Sasuke. Her only chance is to join his team, and then wait for the right moment to catch him off-guard and kill him. However, if her 3 teammates are with her, then she'll have to kill them before Sasuke will let her join him (if he doesn't kill them himself). So she puts them to sleep for thier own safety.

When she reaches Sasuke, her plan seems to be working, until he says she can only join if she kills Karin. She can't get herself to do it, thinking, "She... has nothing to do with this..." She contemplates for a moment trying to kill Sasuke now, so she won't have to kill Karin, but Sasuke can tell, and tries to kill her. (Kakashi manages to show up at exactly the last moment to stop him.)

She follows Kakashi's orders to heal Karin, but once that's done, and she's been told by Karin that he's evil ("He's... not the Sasuke you knew anymore."), she realizes she has to help. Despite Kakashi's (and all the fan's) conviction that she's much too weak to do anything against Sasuke, she manages to sneak up on him and has the chance to kill him. But she falters. She stops just short of his back and breaks down sobbing. This gives Sasuke the chance to turn around and almost kill her.

Everyone hates Sakura for not killing Sasuke, but let's remember this: For the past 3 years, her entire life has been devoted to saving Sasuke. Then, in an emotionally traumatic 4 or 5 hours, she has to abandon her life goal and try to kill Sasuke instead. Can you really blame her for having a moment of pained doubt before she makes a decision that will affect the rest of her life?


Anyway, I just spent about 2 hours looking up my references and typing this all out, so if you think I did a good job on this, could you give me a Rep Up? It really makes me feel like it was worth it. *gets down repped by 4 people for "asking for rep"* What?! NOOOOOOOO...........

OnyxBlossom
02-26-2010, 05:17 PM
I totally agree with you C4, and I don't blame Sakura for being a crybaby when at the times she's cried, they've been for important and emotional reasons.

I was glad when she finally got an important role again, and so what if she didn't kill Sasuke? At least she had gotten the courage to at least try. What she's been doing is for the safety and lives of her friends, but people fail to see that, still only seeing the weakling of Team 7.

(Rep up for the awesome post!)

sasukeXuchiha
02-26-2010, 05:18 PM
Hn...very amazing and right along my thoughts. You pinpoint what alot of fans *half being narusaku or someother couple Others Sakura haters* Fail to realize is that shes doing all this for everyone but herself. Shes making sure no one dies by Sasukes hands and she hopes to stop him cuz she loves him. She loves him so muc hshe cant even kill him twice. Its not cuz Im a Sasusaku fan for pointing this out this is just a theory. When shes thinking in her mind the flashback shes bout to say I love you but instead after she says I twice his thank you comes up revealing to her I think that his thank you meant he loved her back thus her stopping. I want to see one of you kill the person you love more than anything EVEN if they were a real threat to everyone else. I sure as hell couldnt do it Thats why I dont hate Sakura. Very Well Written And Rep Up Indeed for the amazing work

mrsticky005
02-26-2010, 05:54 PM
Don't you get it?

We have an irrational hatred for Sakura

"Why do you keep existing, Sakura!!!"

C4 Karura
02-26-2010, 06:14 PM
Don't you get it?

We have an irrational hatred for Sakura

"Why do you keep existing, Sakura!!!"
:D LOL! ...Wait, are you serious?

Wooster
02-26-2010, 06:27 PM
I have said this before and you have probably seen it but...

This isn't twiddlywinks of horseshoes, close isn't good enough. I agree Saskura's plan was impressive and flawless, which is why I assumed she couldn't be stupid enough to think killing Sasuke by herself was a good idea. Rather, she thought she could change his mind. I guess I was wrong.

I don't think Sasuke saw her hestitation, he was just going to kill her. I don't blame Sakura too much for this attempt, Sasuke was probably well beyond what she imagined he would be.

But the second time was just awful. She completely snuck up on Sasuke and could have killed him. I have no problem if Sakura can't bring herself to kill Sasuke. Naruto and Kakashi have the same problem, but she should know her own mind before she attempts to kill Sasuke. In this case, she is a danger to herself and others. Naruto only got a scratch on his cheek, but it could have been worse.

Then again, I don't hate Sakura. Her personality isn't my type, but Naruto really likes her, so I like her for his sake. Really I am just disappointed with her. She could be so much better.

NaruHina fan
02-26-2010, 06:29 PM
it's not that sakura can't kill sasuke when she has a chance it's kishi giving sasuke plot armour stronger then any plot armour in the history of fiction

C4 Karura
02-26-2010, 06:54 PM
I have said this before and you have probably seen it but...

This isn't twiddlywinks of horseshoes, close isn't good enough. I agree Saskura's plan was impressive and flawless, which is why I assumed she couldn't be stupid enough to think killing Sasuke by herself was a good idea. Rather, she thought she could change his mind. I guess I was wrong.

I don't think Sasuke saw her hestitation, he was just going to kill her. I don't blame Sakura too much for this attempt, Sasuke was probably well beyond what she imagined he would be.

But the second time was just awful. She completely snuck up on Sasuke and could have killed him. I have no problem if Sakura can't bring herself to kill Sasuke. Naruto and Kakashi have the same problem, but she should know her own mind before she attempts to kill Sasuke. In this case, she is a danger to herself and others. Naruto only got a scratch on his cheek, but it could have been worse.

Then again, I don't hate Sakura. Her personality isn't my type, but Naruto really likes her, so I like her for his sake. Really I am just disappointed with her. She could be so much better.
@ 4th Paragraph: I know. When I saw the panel where she stopped right before killing him, I was like, "NOOOOO!!!"

@ 3rd Paragraph: You might be right.

3littlepigs
02-26-2010, 09:05 PM
Then, about 15 chapters ago, she made the decision to kill Sasuke herself, and all of a sudden became a valid character again. However, most people clung to the image they had had of her for the past 3 years, and failed to notice how increasingly great her character was becoming.

Anyway, that means that on the morning of this "day", Sakura was in Tsunade's tent with Shizune, until around the time the meeting started. She was still totally convinced (like much of the fandom), that Sasuke could be saved. Then, Sai and Shikamaru came in and explained that Sasuke was going to be killed by the Konaha 11. All her closest friends are telling her (with very persuasive arguments) why it's the best decision to kill Sasuke. The realization that they might be right causes her to break down crying. Even though she has a very good reason to be upset and crying, the fandom instantly decides that this makes her "a crybaby".

She decides to go and talk to Naruto herself, and explain to him that killing Sasuke is a viable option. However, when she sees him, she decides that she has always relied on him him too much, and that it's time to finally do something for him.

Everyone hates Sakura for not killing Sasuke, but let's remember this: For the past 3 years, her entire life has been devoted to saving Sasuke. Then, in an emotionally traumatic 4 or 5 hours, she has to abandon her life goal and try to kill Sasuke instead. Can you really blame her for having a moment of pained doubt before she makes a decision that will affect the rest of her life?
Ok First I did read all of that (just in case you're wondering). Second here we go again....:) ( and I honestly don't think it's been just 4 or 5 hours that's pretty much impossible but I do agree with you it hasn't been that long for Sakura since she realized Naruto's feelings for her etc...)

I will say I did notice how she changed from Part I to Part II and then again after she found out about Sasuke being a wanted criminal and Sai telling her about Naruto's feelings. Still, I'm one of those calling her a cry-baby and a pretty much useless Kunoichi at the moment (I'm not talking about her as a medical ninja since she's extremely talented at it). The truth is if she can't help then she should get out of the way and let others handle Sasuke. That would be the mature way of handling things and of proving she's changing as a person.

You're saying she initially went to see Naruto with the intent of telling him that it's ok to kill Sasuke? honestly if she only intended to tell him the truth if he agreed to not try and save Sasuke anymore and she knew beforehand how he would react to her feeding him a bunch of lies about loving him and what not, then that means she never intended to tell him the truth from the moment she left the village. Even Yamato himself said that...

Can we also remember that she's not the only who was trying to "save" Sasuke? Naruto was too and yet you don't see him causing trouble for anybody or almost getting others killed because of that. Also nobody told her she had to kill Sasuke...Sai merely told her she relied to much on Naruto and how Naruto felt for her. In other words he told her how selfish she's been with Naruto and that all of them should do something about Sasuke not just Naruto. However if you look at Ino for example (who was also crying like a maniac for "poor Sasuke!" ) she didn't go or even try to go (or more like nobody would have sent her anyway) because emotionally she couldn't do anything...now I really disliked Ino for that but if Sakura wasn't emotionally prepared to change her idea of Sasuke and then do what she set out to do then she shouldn't have acted like she was.

Look at Naruto, everyone's been pressing him like crazy about Sasuke...everyone with their own opinions or suggestions but there's a reason why he hasn't come to a decision regarding Sasuke yet. Because he's not mentally and emotionally ready to come to a decision and he recognizes that.

I guess the main reason why I was so pissed off at Sakura this last two chapters is because when she said she was going to change and when she decided to kill Sasuke herself I actually admired her for it. And then what? her indecision almost got Kakashi killed! Not only that but if she already realized that she can't assimilate the "new" Sasuke why did she have to go back and put herself in danger? I mean how is she not useless? Kakashi just saved her and asked her to please get out of the way because she was obviously not capable of doing anything emotionally and mentally and yet she went right back in the fight and put herself in danger. Honestly if it weren't for her shock when Sasuke grabbed her by the throat I would have assumed she was suicidal...all of a sudden she wants to stop relying too much on Naruto and do things herself but instead she ended up getting saved twice in less than 20 min and in both situations she could have gotten Kakashi and Naruto killed because "she hesitated"...:roll:

Now watch she'll interrupt Naruto and get herself in a dangerous position again and you'll still say she's not "useless" or a "cry-baby".:| (Also most of your argument wasn't really an argument...it was just a big summary of I don't know how many chapters...it didn't really prove anything as to why she's not useless, etc...)

Wooster
02-26-2010, 09:11 PM
Ok First I did read all of that (just in case you're wondering). Second here we go again....:) ( and I honestly don't think it's been just 4 or 5 hours that's pretty much impossible but I do agree with you it hasn't been that long for Sakura since she realized Naruto's feelings for her etc...)



You just love crushing those worthless kunochi don't you?:D

3littlepigs
02-26-2010, 09:17 PM
You just love crushing those worthless kunochi don't you?:D
lol Well now that you mention it, it looks that way...at least I have nothing against Hinata. :) Honestly in most of the mangas and Anime I read/watch the heroines are useless...it sucks since I'm a woman but it's the truth. The only one I can think of right off the bat is Erza from Fairy Tail, now she's awesome and useful!!!:D

Wooster
02-26-2010, 09:24 PM
lol Well now that you mention it, it looks that way...at least I have nothing against Hinata. :) Honestly in most of the mangas and Anime I read/watch the heroines are useless...it sucks since I'm a woman but it's the truth. The only one I can think of right off the bat is Erza from Fairy Tail, now she's awesome and useful!!!:D
Well that what you get for reading manga. Now M'lady is a powerful woman character. Totally evil, vile, maniacal and ruthless, but you couldn't call her useless. She kept the Three Musketeers in fits.

3littlepigs
02-26-2010, 09:27 PM
Well that what you get for reading manga. Now M'lady is a powerful woman character. Totally evil, vile, maniacal and ruthless, but you couldn't call her useless. She kept the Three Musketeers in fits.
lol I actually do read books and not just manga you know...I was merely referring to the fact that in most manga/anime the girl characters are just a bother...

mrsticky005
02-26-2010, 09:38 PM
Something I DO like about Sakura...

Every time she just fails as a character

It's reverse inspiration for me as a comic writer and helps me to write better female
characters by not having them making the same mistakes as characters like Sakura.

*Talim of the moonlight*
02-26-2010, 09:55 PM
You know, i don't blame Sakura either, because i think i would have did the same thing if i were in her situation. You also have to understand that Sasuke was the boy she was madly in love with. Just to think she was getting ready to kill him, and she had to have also known how Naruto would have felt when he found out. Actually that wouldnt have been no time soon because he was like right there in time to save Sakura from Sasuke.

Err
02-27-2010, 08:00 AM
Sakura's high. She doesn't know what she's doing. She needs to leave Sasuke alone and team up with her team to take down Sasuke or at least restrain him.

C4 Karura
02-27-2010, 08:05 AM
Ok First I did read all of that (just in case you're wondering). Second here we go again....:) ( and I honestly don't think it's been just 4 or 5 hours that's pretty much impossible but I do agree with you it hasn't been that long for Sakura since she realized Naruto's feelings for her etc...)

I will say I did notice how she changed from Part I to Part II and then again after she found out about Sasuke being a wanted criminal and Sai telling her about Naruto's feelings. Still, I'm one of those calling her a cry-baby (HOW is she a crybaby? She's had a pretty emotionally wrecking day. I say she deserves to cry, after what she's been through.) and a pretty much useless Kunoichi at the moment (I'm not talking about her as a medical ninja since she's extremely talented at it). The truth is if she can't help then she should get out of the way and let others handle Sasuke. (Back when Naruto was weak, he did exactly what you're saying is wrong. But I bet you're not judging him. It's just becuase you don't like Sakura as a character that you're viewing her actions in a negative light.)That would be the mature way of handling things and of proving she's changing as a person.

You're saying she initially went to see Naruto with the intent of telling him that it's ok to kill Sasuke? honestly if she only intended to tell him the truth if he agreed to not try and save Sasuke anymore and she knew beforehand how he would react to her feeding him a bunch of lies about loving him and what not, then that means she never intended to tell him the truth from the moment she left the village. Even Yamato himself said that...
Hmm... Maybe she decided sooner than seeing him to give the fake speech. Good point.
Can we also remember that she's not the only who was trying to "save" Sasuke? Naruto was too and yet you don't see him causing trouble for anybody or almost getting others killed because of that. Also nobody told her she had to kill Sasuke...Sai merely told her she relied to much on Naruto and how Naruto felt for her. In other words he told her how selfish she's been with Naruto and that all of them should do something about Sasuke not just Naruto. She knew that she wouldn't be able to get Naruto to change his mind. That's why she decided on the best way to kill Sasuke without Naruto: infiltrating his team. After all, even with the Konoha 10 combined, they still wouldn't stand a chance against Sasuke. However if you look at Ino for example (who was also crying like a maniac for "poor Sasuke!" ) she didn't go or even try to go (or more like nobody would have sent her anyway) because emotionally she couldn't do anything...now I really disliked Ino for that but if Sakura wasn't emotionally prepared to change her idea of Sasuke and then do what she set out to do then she shouldn't have acted like she was.

Look at Naruto, everyone's been pressing him like crazy about Sasuke...everyone with their own opinions or suggestions but there's a reason why he hasn't come to a decision regarding Sasuke yet. Because he's not mentally and emotionally ready to come to a decision and he recognizes that.
She thought she was ready. It was only at the last moment that she had a meltdown.

I guess the main reason why I was so pissed off at Sakura this last two chapters is because when she said she was going to change and when she decided to kill Sasuke herself I actually admired her for it. And then what? her indecision almost got Kakashi killed! Not only that but if she already realized that she can't assimilate the "new" Sasuke why did she have to go back and put herself in danger? I mean how is she not useless?
Why does everyone keep on saying that she's useless and too weak fight Sasuke? Back in the beginning of the series, Kakashi said that, as a ninja, it's important not to do head-to-head fighting, but be able to sneak up on the enemy and kill them. Even though Sakura was too weak to beat him in a head-to-head fight, she could use her skills as a ninja to sneak up on him and kill him. She knew she would be able to do that, and she did. The only problem was her hesitation. So stop saying she's useless in a fight against Sasuke. This chapter has clearly proved otherwise. Kakashi just saved her and asked her to please get out of the way because she was obviously not capable of doing anything emotionally and mentally and yet she went right back in the fight and put herself in danger. Honestly if it weren't for her shock when Sasuke grabbed her by the throat I would have assumed she was suicidal...all of a sudden she wants to stop relying too much on Naruto and do things herself but instead she ended up getting saved twice in less than 20 min and in both situations she could have gotten Kakashi and Naruto killed because "she hesitated"...:roll:
Really, it was more of Plot no Jutsu that caused her to abandon 30 chapters of character development, and falter at the worst possible moment. After all, if she had killed him, then Naruto wouldn't have been able to fight him. And god forbid someone other than Naruto might be the one to kill Sasuke.
Now watch she'll interrupt Naruto and get herself in a dangerous position again and you'll still say she's not "useless" or a "cry-baby".:| (Also most of your argument wasn't really an argument...it was just a big summary of I don't know how many chapters...it didn't really prove anything as to why she's not useless, etc...)
Sorry. I'd noticed a lot of people were drastically misinterperting some things that had happened (Like Sakura's "confession" to Sasuke. Most of the Sakura-haters thought she was just being a jerk to Naruto, and didn't notice the explanation of it in Chapter 474.), so I thought I'd take the chance to explain what's really been going on all day to them.

Why do I always end up debating you, 3littlepigs?

C4 Karura
02-27-2010, 08:06 AM
Sakura's high. She doesn't know what she's doing. She needs to leave Sasuke alone and team up with her team to take down Sasuke or at least restrain him.
-_-'... Wow. Way to read the OP before posting.

VampireCat
02-27-2010, 08:15 AM
Actually, I think she knows.
Sasuke wants power, and he doesn't want to come back to Konoha.
He's walking to his 'dark path'.
And, Sakura's trying to save Sasuke from that path. That's why she's trying to kill him. She knows that we won't come back; and her teammates will not kill Sasuke.
What would you do if you were in her situation?
Emphaty, please! :]

C4 Karuro, It was awesome. Thank you for writing this. :]

Err
02-27-2010, 08:31 AM
-_-'... Wow. Way to read the OP before posting.

Did read the entire thing. I still think she's crazy. If she really wanted to kill Sasuke, she should of done it with her team. It's just your assumption that her team can't.

VampireCat
02-27-2010, 08:37 AM
Like I said before; she's not crazy. She tries to save the man she loves. :]
But, yes, I think she thinks that her team can't kill Sasuke. But I think she doesn't think that they are weak. Look at Naruto, can he kill Sasuke? He can't, because Sasuke is/was his best friend. ^^

Err
02-27-2010, 08:53 AM
Like I said before; she's not crazy. She tries to save the man she loves. :]
But, yes, I think she thinks that her team can't kill Sasuke. But I think she doesn't think that they are weak. Look at Naruto, can he kill Sasuke? He can't, because Sasuke is/was his best friend. ^^

Exactly, she's crazy because she's in love with a evil guy.

VampireCat
02-27-2010, 08:56 AM
Seriously, what would you do? O.o
Anyway, this is your opinion. :]

Err
02-27-2010, 08:58 AM
I don't know what I would do. I wouldn't be foolish enough to fall in love, that's for certain.

VampireCat
02-27-2010, 09:01 AM
Do you really think that you can take control of it? (I'm talking about falling in love)
Trying to control it would be a waste of time, in my opinion. :]

C4 Karura
02-27-2010, 09:18 AM
Did read the entire thing. I still think she's crazy. If she really wanted to kill Sasuke, she should of done it with her team. It's just your assumption that her team can't.
She knew that she couldn't get Naruto to join her, and that Kakashi might die if he fought Sasuke. She did it to protect them.

VampireCat
02-27-2010, 09:24 AM
She knew that she couldn't get Naruto to join her, and that Kakashi might die if he fought Sasuke. She did it to protect them.
I agree. ^^

Sakura+Sasuke=Awesomness
02-27-2010, 09:39 AM
***SPOILERS***

READ THROUGH THE WHOLE THING BEFORE YOU REPLY. SERIOUSLY, SO MANY TIMES, I'LL MAKE A LONG CASE IN MY OP, AND PEOPLE WON'T BOTHER TO READ IT ALL. THEN, THEY MAKE COUNTERARGUMENTS CONTAINING THINGS I 100% PERCENT DISPROVED IN MY OP. IT'S REALLY ANNOYING.


All right, Chapter 484 seems to have unleashed new waves of hatred for Sakura's character. In it, she has the chance to stab Sasuke in the back, and finally end the Sasuke storyline, which stopped being interesting (with few exceptions) about 25 chapters ago. However, she is racked with indecision, and stops less than inch from his back. This has caused about 60% of all Chapter 484-related posts to be whining about Sakura not killing him.

They all seem to revolve around the theme: "Grrr... Sakura's such a crybaby! She's whining about everything! Seriously, MAKE YOUR MIND UP ABOUT SASUKE, YOU LOSER! She needs to die, and soon..."

I think this is where they're being completely blind to vast majorities of the recent story, and only noticing the parts that support thier whining. Maybe, if they were actually paying attention, they'd notice how much has changed in the last 35 chapters.

For about 175 chapters, from after the Sasori fight to when she decided to kill Sasuke herself, she bacame a pathetic, weak character. When Part 2 started she and Naruto were on the same level. She actually had a fair chance at beating him, if it weren't for Shadow Clone Spamming. Then, after the Sasori fight, she fell out the spotlight completely. She appeared in arcs, for sure, but she stopped doing anything that mattered. Without the constant stream of powerups that the rest of the characters were getting, she quickly fell behind and became a weakling. Then, about 15 chapters ago, she made the decision to kill Sasuke herself, and all of a sudden became a valid character again. However, most people clung to the image they had had of her for the past 3 years, and failed to notice how increasingly great her character was becoming.


Here's my case for why her hesitating to kill Sasuke doesn't make her hateable:

Everything from Page 16 of Chapter 456 onwards takes place on the same day. That's right. The current day in Naruto started back in July 2009. Seven months ago. Now, I could spend a very long time explaining why it's impossible for a day to have passed. However, I'm already spending quite a bit of my time making the "Pro-Sakura" case. Inevitably, someone will say, "Prove it," and when they do, I'll go and make the very long case, but for now I'm just finishing this up.

Anyway, that means that on the morning of this "day", Sakura was in Tsunade's tent with Shizune, until around the time the meeting started. She was still totally convinced (like much of the fandom), that Sasuke could be saved. Then, Sai and Shikamaru came in and explained that Sasuke was going to be killed by the Konaha 11. All her closest friends are telling her (with very persuasive arguments) why it's the best decision to kill Sasuke. The realization that they might be right causes her to break down crying. Even though she has a very good reason to be upset and crying, the fandom instantly decides that this makes her "a crybaby".

She decides to go and talk to Naruto herself, and explain to him that killing Sasuke is a viable option. However, when she sees him, she decides that she has always relied on him him too much, and that it's time to finally do something for him.

Becuase of this, she goes up to him and gives a fake speech in order to help him get over her. She knows that once she kills Sasuke, he'll hate her for doing so. And so she tells him that she no longer wants him to keep the promise he made to her 3 years ago (to bring Sasuke back). She explains that she no longer loves Sasuke, and loves him instead. She does all this becuase she knows it'll make Naruto angry with her, so he'll feel less betrayed when he finds out she killed Sasuke. However, Naruto can tell that she's lying and still loves Sasuke. She fake-storms off, and thinks to herself, "Naruto! I'm sorry!" Then she asks Kiba to find Sasuke for her.

As soon as she finds out from Kiba where Sasuke is, she tries to put the rest of her team to sleep. She knows that even with all 4 of them they're still no match for Sasuke. Her only chance is to join his team, and then wait for the right moment to catch him off-guard and kill him. However, if her 3 teammates are with her, then she'll have to kill them before Sasuke will let her join him (if he doesn't kill them himself). So she puts them to sleep for thier own safety.

When she reaches Sasuke, her plan seems to be working, until he says she can only join if she kills Karin. She can't get herself to do it, thinking, "She... has nothing to do with this..." She contemplates for a moment trying to kill Sasuke now, so she won't have to kill Karin, but Sasuke can tell, and tries to kill her. (Kakashi manages to show up at exactly the last moment to stop him.)

She follows Kakashi's orders to heal Karin, but once that's done, and she's been told by Karin that he's evil ("He's... not the Sasuke you knew anymore."), she realizes she has to help. Despite Kakashi's (and all the fan's) conviction that she's much too weak to do anything against Sasuke, she manages to sneak up on him and has the chance to kill him. But she falters. She stops just short of his back and breaks down sobbing. This gives Sasuke the chance to turn around and almost kill her.

Everyone hates Sakura for not killing Sasuke, but let's remember this: For the past 3 years, her entire life has been devoted to saving Sasuke. Then, in an emotionally traumatic 4 or 5 hours, she has to abandon her life goal and try to kill Sasuke instead. Can you really blame her for having a moment of pained doubt before she makes a decision that will affect the rest of her life?


Anyway, I just spent about 2 hours looking up my references and typing this all out, so if you think I did a good job on this, could you give me a Rep Up? It really makes me feel like it was worth it. *gets down repped by 4 people for "asking for rep"* What?! NOOOOOOOO...........
I agree your totally right:)

3littlepigs
02-27-2010, 10:29 AM
(HOW is she a crybaby? She's had a pretty emotionally wrecking day. I say she deserves to cry, after what she's been through.)

Didn't I explain my reasons for calling her a cry-baby in the rest of my argument?:)

(Back when Naruto was weak, he did exactly what you're saying is wrong. But I bet you're not judging him. It's just becuase you don't like Sakura as a character that you're viewing her actions in a negative light.)

Actually, you're assuming I never judged Naruto for it but you're wrong. For your information I didn't really like Naruto until after the fight with Pain, and the reason was mostly that, that he let his emotions control him all the time and even if he was "trying" to be useful he just caused more trouble for everyone (well at least most of the time).
And you're also assuming I don't like Sakura as a character and that I'm just looking for whatever excuse to criticize her but that's not true. I think I have very valid points for disliking her right now and calling her a "cry-baby" and "useless" Kunoichi...

Hmm... Maybe she decided sooner than seeing him to give the fake speech. Good point.

Glad we at least agree on that....

She knew that she wouldn't be able to get Naruto to change his mind. That's why she decided on the best way to kill Sasuke without Naruto: infiltrating his team. After all, even with the Konoha 10 combined, they still wouldn't stand a chance against Sasuke.

That I can understand...Naruto's bond with Sasuke is separate from his promise to Sakura...he's after Sasuke for his own reasons. Yet I don't see your point with what you're saying? I didn't say anything about her strategy to kill Sasuke (but if you ask me it was stupid of her...Sasuke's a complete psycho but he's not an idiot.)

She thought she was ready. It was only at the last moment that she had a meltdown.

Yeah and that only gives her an excuse until Kakashi saved her. How do you make the same mistake twice in less than 15 min? You're basically agreeing with me on this..if she just had a meltdown and ended up being saved then why did she go back and try to kill him again when she already "knew" for sure she couldn't do it. I mean honestly if she wasn't able to do it 10 min ago it's obvious she wasn't going to be able to do it that second time...that's where most of my critique comes from.

Why does everyone keep on saying that she's useless and too weak fight Sasuke? Back in the beginning of the series, Kakashi said that, as a ninja, it's important not to do head-to-head fighting, but be able to sneak up on the enemy and kill them. Even though Sakura was too weak to beat him in a head-to-head fight, she could use her skills as a ninja to sneak up on him and kill him. She knew she would be able to do that, and she did. The only problem was her hesitation. So stop saying she's useless in a fight against Sasuke. This chapter has clearly proved otherwise.

Again...what are you quoting and replying to? If I ever said she wasn't strong enough to fight Sasuke or kill him I didn't write it in your thread...I just told you that I got mad at her because I admired her decision to kill him and then she ended up not doing anything except get Kakashi and Naruto in harm's way.

She's obviously talented...I'm not saying she's not, if she wasn't Tsunade wouldn't have made her her apprentice. But she's an emotional wreck when it comes to Sasuke and whatever she might do right she ends up doing it wrong and messing things up. If she knows that (or at least realizes that in a fight) then the mature way to handle things would be to leave the job to others (like Kakashi saving her and giving her an opportunity to get away from the fight).

Also, pretty much anyone at that point could have sneaked up on Sasuke...the guy was just too shocked to see he's almost completely blind by now. And yes her hesitation was her only problem and that's exactly why she was useless!! believe me she didn't need any more "problems" at the time...just hesitating caused enough trouble.

Really, it was more of Plot no Jutsu that caused her to abandon 30 chapters of character development, and falter at the worst possible moment. After all, if she had killed him, then Naruto wouldn't have been able to fight him. And god forbid someone other than Naruto might be the one to kill Sasuke.

Geez I know it's obviously for the plot that Sasuke's still alive...believe me I know that's also the reason why two of my favorite characters are gone (Itachi and Jiraya). Still actually hurting him would have sufficed for me, it would have proven her determination and her growth as a character IMO.

Sorry. I'd noticed a lot of people were drastically misinterperting some things that had happened (Like Sakura's "confession" to Sasuke. Most of the Sakura-haters thought she was just being a jerk to Naruto, and didn't notice the explanation of it in Chapter 474.), so I thought I'd take the chance to explain what's really been going on all day to them.
Oh ok...
Why do I always end up debating you, 3littlepigs?
lol I have no idea...maybe because somehow you always end up sticking up for any character that's being criticized and somehow I always have a perfectly fine reason for the critique?

Ur Mom
02-27-2010, 10:52 AM
***SPOILERS***

READ THROUGH THE WHOLE THING BEFORE YOU REPLY. SERIOUSLY, SO MANY TIMES, I'LL MAKE A LONG CASE IN MY OP, AND PEOPLE WON'T BOTHER TO READ IT ALL. THEN, THEY MAKE COUNTERARGUMENTS CONTAINING THINGS I 100% PERCENT DISPROVED IN MY OP. IT'S REALLY ANNOYING.


All right, Chapter 484 seems to have unleashed new waves of hatred for Sakura's character. In it, she has the chance to stab Sasuke in the back, and finally end the Sasuke storyline, which stopped being interesting (with few exceptions) about 25 chapters ago. However, she is racked with indecision, and stops less than inch from his back. This has caused about 60% of all Chapter 484-related posts to be whining about Sakura not killing him.

They all seem to revolve around the theme: "Grrr... Sakura's such a crybaby! She's whining about everything! Seriously, MAKE YOUR MIND UP ABOUT SASUKE, YOU LOSER! She needs to die, and soon..."

I think this is where they're being completely blind to vast majorities of the recent story, and only noticing the parts that support thier whining. Maybe, if they were actually paying attention, they'd notice how much has changed in the last 35 chapters.

For about 175 chapters, from after the Sasori fight to when she decided to kill Sasuke herself, she bacame a pathetic, weak character. When Part 2 started she and Naruto were on the same level. She actually had a fair chance at beating him, if it weren't for Shadow Clone Spamming. Then, after the Sasori fight, she fell out the spotlight completely. She appeared in arcs, for sure, but she stopped doing anything that mattered. Without the constant stream of powerups that the rest of the characters were getting, she quickly fell behind and became a weakling. Then, about 15 chapters ago, she made the decision to kill Sasuke herself, and all of a sudden became a valid character again. However, most people clung to the image they had had of her for the past 3 years, and failed to notice how increasingly great her character was becoming.


Here's my case for why her hesitating to kill Sasuke doesn't make her hateable:

Everything from Page 16 of Chapter 456 onwards takes place on the same day. That's right. The current day in Naruto started back in July 2009. Seven months ago. Now, I could spend a very long time explaining why it's impossible for a day to have passed. However, I'm already spending quite a bit of my time making the "Pro-Sakura" case. Inevitably, someone will say, "Prove it," and when they do, I'll go and make the very long case, but for now I'm just finishing this up.

Anyway, that means that on the morning of this "day", Sakura was in Tsunade's tent with Shizune, until around the time the meeting started. She was still totally convinced (like much of the fandom), that Sasuke could be saved. Then, Sai and Shikamaru came in and explained that Sasuke was going to be killed by the Konaha 11. All her closest friends are telling her (with very persuasive arguments) why it's the best decision to kill Sasuke. The realization that they might be right causes her to break down crying. Even though she has a very good reason to be upset and crying, the fandom instantly decides that this makes her "a crybaby".

She decides to go and talk to Naruto herself, and explain to him that killing Sasuke is a viable option. However, when she sees him, she decides that she has always relied on him him too much, and that it's time to finally do something for him.

Becuase of this, she goes up to him and gives a fake speech in order to help him get over her. She knows that once she kills Sasuke, he'll hate her for doing so. And so she tells him that she no longer wants him to keep the promise he made to her 3 years ago (to bring Sasuke back). She explains that she no longer loves Sasuke, and loves him instead. She does all this becuase she knows it'll make Naruto angry with her, so he'll feel less betrayed when he finds out she killed Sasuke. However, Naruto can tell that she's lying and still loves Sasuke. She fake-storms off, and thinks to herself, "Naruto! I'm sorry!" Then she asks Kiba to find Sasuke for her.

As soon as she finds out from Kiba where Sasuke is, she tries to put the rest of her team to sleep. She knows that even with all 4 of them they're still no match for Sasuke. Her only chance is to join his team, and then wait for the right moment to catch him off-guard and kill him. However, if her 3 teammates are with her, then she'll have to kill them before Sasuke will let her join him (if he doesn't kill them himself). So she puts them to sleep for thier own safety.

When she reaches Sasuke, her plan seems to be working, until he says she can only join if she kills Karin. She can't get herself to do it, thinking, "She... has nothing to do with this..." She contemplates for a moment trying to kill Sasuke now, so she won't have to kill Karin, but Sasuke can tell, and tries to kill her. (Kakashi manages to show up at exactly the last moment to stop him.)

She follows Kakashi's orders to heal Karin, but once that's done, and she's been told by Karin that he's evil ("He's... not the Sasuke you knew anymore."), she realizes she has to help. Despite Kakashi's (and all the fan's) conviction that she's much too weak to do anything against Sasuke, she manages to sneak up on him and has the chance to kill him. But she falters. She stops just short of his back and breaks down sobbing. This gives Sasuke the chance to turn around and almost kill her.

Everyone hates Sakura for not killing Sasuke, but let's remember this: For the past 3 years, her entire life has been devoted to saving Sasuke. Then, in an emotionally traumatic 4 or 5 hours, she has to abandon her life goal and try to kill Sasuke instead. Can you really blame her for having a moment of pained doubt before she makes a decision that will affect the rest of her life?


Anyway, I just spent about 2 hours looking up my references and typing this all out, so if you think I did a good job on this, could you give me a Rep Up? It really makes me feel like it was worth it. *gets down repped by 4 people for "asking for rep"* What?! NOOOOOOOO...........

Ok First I did read all of that (just in case you're wondering). Second here we go again....:) ( and I honestly don't think it's been just 4 or 5 hours that's pretty much impossible but I do agree with you it hasn't been that long for Sakura since she realized Naruto's feelings for her etc...)

I will say I did notice how she changed from Part I to Part II and then again after she found out about Sasuke being a wanted criminal and Sai telling her about Naruto's feelings. Still, I'm one of those calling her a cry-baby and a pretty much useless Kunoichi at the moment (I'm not talking about her as a medical ninja since she's extremely talented at it). The truth is if she can't help then she should get out of the way and let others handle Sasuke. That would be the mature way of handling things and of proving she's changing as a person.

You're saying she initially went to see Naruto with the intent of telling him that it's ok to kill Sasuke? honestly if she only intended to tell him the truth if he agreed to not try and save Sasuke anymore and she knew beforehand how he would react to her feeding him a bunch of lies about loving him and what not, then that means she never intended to tell him the truth from the moment she left the village. Even Yamato himself said that...

Can we also remember that she's not the only who was trying to "save" Sasuke? Naruto was too and yet you don't see him causing trouble for anybody or almost getting others killed because of that. Also nobody told her she had to kill Sasuke...Sai merely told her she relied to much on Naruto and how Naruto felt for her. In other words he told her how selfish she's been with Naruto and that all of them should do something about Sasuke not just Naruto. However if you look at Ino for example (who was also crying like a maniac for "poor Sasuke!" ) she didn't go or even try to go (or more like nobody would have sent her anyway) because emotionally she couldn't do anything...now I really disliked Ino for that but if Sakura wasn't emotionally prepared to change her idea of Sasuke and then do what she set out to do then she shouldn't have acted like she was.

Look at Naruto, everyone's been pressing him like crazy about Sasuke...everyone with their own opinions or suggestions but there's a reason why he hasn't come to a decision regarding Sasuke yet. Because he's not mentally and emotionally ready to come to a decision and he recognizes that.

I guess the main reason why I was so pissed off at Sakura this last two chapters is because when she said she was going to change and when she decided to kill Sasuke herself I actually admired her for it. And then what? her indecision almost got Kakashi killed! Not only that but if she already realized that she can't assimilate the "new" Sasuke why did she have to go back and put herself in danger? I mean how is she not useless? Kakashi just saved her and asked her to please get out of the way because she was obviously not capable of doing anything emotionally and mentally and yet she went right back in the fight and put herself in danger. Honestly if it weren't for her shock when Sasuke grabbed her by the throat I would have assumed she was suicidal...all of a sudden she wants to stop relying too much on Naruto and do things herself but instead she ended up getting saved twice in less than 20 min and in both situations she could have gotten Kakashi and Naruto killed because "she hesitated"...:roll:

Now watch she'll interrupt Naruto and get herself in a dangerous position again and you'll still say she's not "useless" or a "cry-baby".:| (Also most of your argument wasn't really an argument...it was just a big summary of I don't know how many chapters...it didn't really prove anything as to why she's not useless, etc...)


lol I have no idea...maybe because somehow you always end up sticking up for any character that's being criticized and somehow I always have a perfectly fine reason for the critique?
You two make way too long posts >.<

katsuki
02-27-2010, 11:00 AM
You two make way too long posts >.<
i agree. :(

Wooster
02-27-2010, 11:02 AM
You two make way too long posts >.<
Nah, they just need to use serifs. Times New Roman FTW. Though that orange does tend to burn my retina. Or maybe it was that laser in the eye the other day?

C4 Karura
02-27-2010, 11:39 AM
Didn't I explain my reasons for calling her a cry-baby in the rest of my argument?:)
I didn't notice anything when I read it. Explain to me how she doesn't deserve crying after what she's been through.

Actually, you're assuming I never judged Naruto for it but you're wrong. For your information I didn't really like Naruto until after the fight with Pain, and the reason was mostly that, that he let his emotions control him all the time and even if he was "trying" to be useful he just caused more trouble for everyone (well at least most of the time).
And you're also assuming I don't like Sakura as a character and that I'm just looking for whatever excuse to criticize her but that's not true. I think I have very valid points for disliking her right now and calling her a "cry-baby" and "useless" Kunoichi...
Ok, fine. My point is that she's not the only character to let thier emotions get in the way of their fighting. After this fight, if Sasuke survives, she'll probably feel depressed that she didn't take her chance to kill him, finally get real resolve, and maybe, just maybe, she'll actually start training to catch up to Sasuke, like Naruto's been doing all along.

That I can understand...Naruto's bond with Sasuke is separate from his promise to Sakura...he's after Sasuke for his own reasons. Yet I don't see your point with what you're saying? I didn't say anything about her strategy to kill Sasuke (but if you ask me it was stupid of her...Sasuke's a complete psycho but he's not an idiot.)
Sakura hadn't seen him in over 170 chapters, and the last time he wasn't the emotionally/mentally traumatized psycho he is now, he was just indifferent to them. Even though Sakura knew he'd changed, she'd counted on his "whatever it takes to reach my goal" ideal, which he mentioned at their encounter, to convince him that she would be useful. When she saw him again, she could tell that he'd drastically changed, but she had no choice but to stick to the plan she'd already worked out.

Yeah and that only gives her an excuse until Kakashi saved her. How do you make the same mistake twice in less than 15 min? You're basically agreeing with me on this..if she just had a meltdown and ended up being saved then why did she go back and try to kill him again when she already "knew" for sure she couldn't do it. I mean honestly if she wasn't able to do it 10 min ago it's obvious she wasn't going to be able to do it that second time...that's where most of my critique comes from.
That first time she was trying to decide whether to risk trying to kill him now, so she wouldn't have to kill Karin. She wasn't hesitating about whether she should kill him. She was hesitating about whether to lose a big part of her being able to kill Sasuke (catching him off-guard), so she wouldn't have to kill someone else. It wasn't until that second time, when she KNEW that doing this would kill Sasuke, and killing him wouldn't protect someone from imminent death, that she faltered.

Again...what are you quoting and replying to? If I ever said she wasn't strong enough to fight Sasuke or kill him I didn't write it in your thread...I just told you that I got mad at her because I admired her decision to kill him and then she ended up not doing anything except get Kakashi and Naruto in harm's way.
You said she was useless. She's only having to be saved by Kakashi and Naruto at the LAST POSSIBLE SECOND before she's killed becuase Kishi thinks it make them look heroic, or something. Instead, it makes him look sexist for making the FEMALE character too helpless to do anything but stand there with a shocked look on her face, while the MALE characters go off and do the REAL fighting.

She's obviously talented...I'm not saying she's not, if she wasn't Tsunade wouldn't have made her her apprentice. But she's an emotional wreck when it comes to Sasuke and whatever she might do right she ends up doing it wrong and messing things up. If she knows that (or at least realizes that in a fight) then the mature way to handle things would be to leave the job to others (like Kakashi saving her and giving her an opportunity to get away from the fight).
Again, she thought she could do this. It wasn't until she actually had a real chance to kill him that she realized she couldn't.

Also, pretty much anyone at that point could have sneaked up on Sasuke...the guy was just too shocked to see he's almost completely blind by now. And yes her hesitation was her only problem and that's exactly why she was useless!! believe me she didn't need any more "problems" at the time...just hesitating caused enough trouble.
Yes, she hesitated, but look at it this way: Would YOU be able to stab one of your close friends, even if they were attacking someone, and might kill them? I think you're trivializing how big a deal it is to stab someone becuase it's a manga.

Geez I know it's obviously for the plot that Sasuke's still alive...believe me I know that's also the reason why two of my favorite characters are gone (Itachi and Jiraya). Still actually hurting him would have sufficed for me, it would have proven her determination and her growth as a character IMO.
I know. I was so disapointed when I saw the panel where she stopped. I gaurantee you, Kishi would NEVER let a male character do that. But, of course, becuase Sakura's a GIRL, she's going to let EMOTIONS get in the way of her job. -_-... Seriously...
lol I have no idea...maybe because somehow you always end up sticking up for any character that's being criticized and somehow I always have a perfectly fine reason for the critique?
I ended up being right about the Karin debate, though. She wasn't just some Sasuke fangirl. She had a semi-reasonable reason for following him, and is now willing to leave. (I was also right about her being alive.)

C4 Karura
02-27-2010, 11:40 AM
You two make way too long posts >.<
:D Sorry...

Nah, they just need to use serifs. Times New Roman FTW. Though that orange does tend to burn my retina. Or maybe it was that laser in the eye the other day?
Wait, it's annoying? Should I change it?

VampireCat
02-27-2010, 11:42 AM
Can you change your text colour, please? (pink one)
Sorry but I can't read anything. :/

Hidden Ninja45
02-27-2010, 11:51 AM
I don't hate Sakura after this chapter. I'm happy Sasuke didn't die yet.

Nice thread here. I didn't know that such little time had passed in the past 30 chapters.

Wooster
02-27-2010, 12:05 PM
:D Sorry...


Wait, it's annoying? Should I change it?

Use whatever you like. Though anyone with color blindness probably either sees mustard or darkish brown.

In any case, don't use reds or pinks much worse. Even if they may stand out more. Those really hurt.

VampireCat
02-27-2010, 12:10 PM
Tolerate her, people. :]
(Talking about Sakura)

dillydally
02-27-2010, 12:45 PM
I have said this before and you have probably seen it but...

This isn't twiddlywinks of horseshoes, close isn't good enough. I agree Saskura's plan was impressive and flawless, which is why I assumed she couldn't be stupid enough to think killing Sasuke by herself was a good idea. Rather, she thought she could change his mind. I guess I was wrong.

I don't think Sasuke saw her hestitation, he was just going to kill her. I don't blame Sakura too much for this attempt, Sasuke was probably well beyond what she imagined he would be.

But the second time was just awful. She completely snuck up on Sasuke and could have killed him. I have no problem if Sakura can't bring herself to kill Sasuke. Naruto and Kakashi have the same problem, but she should know her own mind before she attempts to kill Sasuke. In this case, she is a danger to herself and others. Naruto only got a scratch on his cheek, but it could have been worse.

Then again, I don't hate Sakura. Her personality isn't my type, but Naruto really likes her, so I like her for his sake. Really I am just disappointed with her. She could be so much better.

But it is unrealistic for someone to really know what they are capable of doing without ever done it before. You have to understand that Sakura honestly thought that she be able to kill Sasuke without backing out, and in her mind she thought that she emotionally prepare to do it too. I don't believe she didn't actually have any hesitations about killing Sasuke until the very last moment, which is an extremely human quality. This is something that people deal with in real life. An example of this is that I don't have a fear of public speaking, nor do I have a problem doing so, but there have been occasions (not ever time tho) where I'm fine until I get to the podium and then I start to shake and find it extremely difficult to speak, which I find weird since I can do acting on stage and I am really good at debating/giving presentations in class, so generally I don't have a problem speaking in front of people. The point of that story is that you can't always know how you will react to a situation and you may think you'll react one way but in reality when your in a situation you'll act in a completely different way, Sakura is no exeption to this. You say that she should know her mind as if it is something easily done, but it really isn't. It is very rare for a person to truely know themselves, and those that do knew them self well enough to know how they will react in every situation are very special (ever heard of the saying you can not know how you will react in a situation until you live it). It is also very important to remember that Sakura isn't suppose to be this special above human standers being, she is the normal one and she is the most human character in the show, which is the reason why I like her so much but it is also the reason why people hate her so much.

Sorry for picking on you even tho you haven't been bashing Sakura like alot of people but that statement bothered me.

P.S- C4 great thread I agree with you completely, I tried to rep you but apparently I have repped you recently which I don't really remember when but oh well.

3littlepigs
02-27-2010, 12:52 PM
I didn't notice anything when I read it. Explain to me how she doesn't deserve crying after what she's been through.
I'll change my font color because people seem to be bother by it...

What do you mean you didn't notice anything when you read it? I gave you a whole bunch of reasons as to why I consider she was useless in the last two chapters. Also I never said it's forbidden for her to cry, she's only human and so she has the right to cry. I meant that she shouldn't be crying at times like that...if she's unable to control her emotions and she can't stop crying then let others handle it! that's what I've been saying all along!

Ok, fine. My point is that she's not the only character to let thier emotions get in the way of their fighting. After this fight, if Sasuke survives, she'll probably feel depressed that she didn't take her chance to kill him, finally get real resolve, and maybe, just maybe, she'll actually start training to catch up to Sasuke, like Naruto's been doing all along.

Yeah, we agree on that whether she had killed him or not she would have been an emotional wreck afterward...that's typical Sakura. The thing is if she hasn't realized by now that she'll never be able to kill him (in terms of strength and emotionally as well) then she's worse off than I thought.

Sakura hadn't seen him in over 170 chapters, and the last time he wasn't the emotionally/mentally traumatized psycho he is now, he was just indifferent to them. Even though Sakura knew he'd changed, she'd counted on his "whatever it takes to reach my goal" ideal, which he mentioned at their encounter, to convince him that she would be useful. When she saw him again, she could tell that he'd drastically changed, but she had no choice but to stick to the plan she'd already worked out.

Again I fail to see your point since I wasn't debating her "strategy" to begin with. Either way, she let her guard down...for someone who doesn't trust the two people she was surrounded by (Sasuke and Karin) Sasuke was about to get her way too easily...Sakura hadn't even noticed until Karin spoke. That's how good her plan was...

That first time she was trying to decide whether to risk trying to kill him now, so she wouldn't have to kill Karin. She wasn't hesitating about whether she should kill him. She was hesitating about whether to lose a big part of her being able to kill Sasuke (catching him off-guard), so she wouldn't have to kill someone else. It wasn't until that second time, when she KNEW that doing this would kill Sasuke, and killing him wouldn't protect someone from imminent death, that she faltered.

She hesitated all right...if she had been a 100% determined and committed to killing Sasuke anyway possible she wouldn't have hesitated right there...I don't know at least that's the way I see it. Because it took her long enough to come to a decision she let herself wide open to Sasuke's attack. You should never turn your back on your enemy yet she did...which means deep down she still didn't fully consider him an enemy.

You said she was useless. She's only having to be saved by Kakashi and Naruto at the LAST POSSIBLE SECOND before she's killed becuase Kishi thinks it make them look heroic, or something. Instead, it makes him look sexist for making the FEMALE character too helpless to do anything but stand there with a shocked look on her face, while the MALE characters go off and do the REAL fighting.

Yes, I did say she was useless. We're not debating whether her actions are plot related or not...obviously characters like Sasuke and Naruto get lucky, etc all the time simply because of their roles in the series and Sakura's no exception. As a heroine she kind of sucks and though it's Kishi's fault I can still get mad at her and dislike her for it just like I do with Sasuke.

Again, she thought she could do this. It wasn't until she actually had a real chance to kill him that she realized she couldn't.

Exactly and as soon as she realized that she shouldn't have intervened any more.

Yes, she hesitated, but look at it this way: Would YOU be able to stab one of your close friends, even if they were attacking someone, and might kill them? I think you're trivializing how big a deal it is to stab someone becuase it's a manga.

The thing is I'm not a shinobi! killing people isn't my job! it's theirs....I'm not trivializing anything. This is a ninja series we're talking about not something like Fruits Basket. If she couldn't make up her mind fast enough to stab him the first time (when she was supposed to kill Karin) then emotionally she wasn't in the right place....also if she didn't want to kill him but all of a sudden just wanted to protect Kakashi (which that's not the case she just didn't want him carrying the burden alone) then yeah she should have stabbed Sasuke to stop him and protect Kakashi. She probably doesn't know Kakashi is Hokage now but I bet you even if she knew she still wouldn't have stabbed Sasuke. Isn't it her job to protect the Hokage? to protect Konoha? that's why I think even if she "loved" him or just because he's a childhood friend she still had a responsability to either get out of the way or carry her actions all the way through.

She failed miserably at both...

I know. I was so disapointed when I saw the panel where she stopped. I gaurantee you, Kishi would NEVER let a male character do that. But, of course, becuase Sakura's a GIRL, she's going to let EMOTIONS get in the way of her job. -_-... Seriously...


You're not the only one...I'm dissapointed in general with all the Kunoichi in Naruto. The only two that save the day are Temari and Konan.

I ended up being right about the Karin debate, though. She wasn't just some Sasuke fangirl. She had a semi-reasonable reason for following him, and is now willing to leave. (I was also right about her being alive.)
Well didn't she consider Sakura an enemy even after she was healing her? You did get the "Sakura healing her part" right though :)

3littlepigs
02-27-2010, 12:55 PM
You two make way too long posts >.<
Sorry but I tried to reply to each of her points in the argument....
Nah, they just need to use serifs. Times New Roman FTW. Though that orange does tend to burn my retina. Or maybe it was that laser in the eye the other day?
lol No, I'm sure it's the orange and the purple...I actually would prefer to keep this font color but it goes unnoticed compared to the orange...;)
Can you change your text colour, please? (pink one)
Sorry but I can't read anything. :/
Again sorry about the color....I changed it. Still the orange you use isn't any better to be honest...

dillydally
02-27-2010, 01:05 PM
Yeah and that only gives her an excuse until Kakashi saved her. How do you make the same mistake twice in less than 15 min? You're basically agreeing with me on this..if she just had a meltdown and ended up being saved then why did she go back and try to kill him again when she already "knew" for sure she couldn't do it. I mean honestly if she wasn't able to do it 10 min ago it's obvious she wasn't going to be able to do it that second time...that's where most of my critique comes from.

That was different, she was hesitating because she didn't want to kill Karin but at the same time knew that if she tried to attack than that she wouldn't succed in a suprise attack since Sasuke was kinda expecting that; and since she wouldn't be able to defet him in a fair fight she would must likely fail. At that moment I don't think she was even worried about not being emotionally ready to kill Sasuke.

Wooster
02-27-2010, 01:07 PM
But it is unrealistic for someone to really know what they are capable of doing without ever done it before. You have to understand that Sakura honestly thought that she be able to kill Sasuke without backing out, and in her mind she thought that she emotionally prepare to do it too. I don't believe she didn't actually have any hesitations about killing Sasuke until the very last moment, which is an extremely human quality. This is something that people deal with in real life. An example of this is that I don't have a fear of public speaking, nor do I have a problem doing so, but there have been occasions (not ever time tho) where I'm fine until I get to the podium and then I start to shake and find it extremely difficult to speak, which I find weird since I can do acting on stage and I am really good at debating/giving presentations in class, so generally I don't have a problem speaking in front of people. The point of that story is that you can't always know how you will react to a situation and you may think you'll react one way but in reality when your in a situation you'll act in a completely different way, Sakura is no exeption to this. You say that she should know her mind as if it is something easily done, but it really isn't. It is very rare for a person to truely know themselves, and those that do knew them self well enough to know how they will react in every situation are very special (ever heard of the saying you can not know how you will react in a situation until you live it). It is also very important to remember that Sakura isn't suppose to be this special above human standers being, she is the normal one and she is the most human character in the show, which is the reason why I like her so much but it is also the reason why people hate her so much.

Sorry for picking on you even tho you haven't been bashing Sakura like alot of people but that statement bothered me.

P.S- C4 great thread I agree with you completely, I tried to rep you but apparently I have repped you recently which I don't really remember when but oh well.
There is a flaw in your theory. You say she doesn't know yet. That's not true this is the second time. She failed the first time, it's quite easy to guess that she would fail the second time.

Even more so, I don't know if I agree it's hard to predict how one will act under pressure. There's no certainity but one can guess. Then again I have a very analytical mind. I can predict how I will act without having to experience the feeling at the time.

But more importantly, was it really such a surprise to Sakura that she didn't have the guts to follow through. It's one thing to think you can do it, but she had to know she could do it. Even if there was some doubt she should have realized that it was a bad idea. If she wants to kill herself that's one thing, but the second time she put Naruto and Kakashi in danger as well.

This isn't practise, she only had one shot. Even a sliver of uncertainity should have been enough for Sakura reconsider, she is a smart cookie. In otherwords, I have high standards for Sakura, but she failed them.

She is not the only one to do this. Naruto was an idiot for chasing after Deidara during the Gaara rescue arc. However, Naruto has an instinct personality it's expected of him. However, lately Naruto has been thinking about his actions more than Sakura. When did Naruto become the smartest of the three?

But no one should hate Sakura, if you don't like her don't waste the energy. If you do like her, then there are many things she needs to improve. That can't be denied.

Wooster
02-27-2010, 01:12 PM
You're not the only one...I'm dissapointed in general with all the Kunoichi in Naruto. The only two that save the day are Temari and Konan.

Hey you forgot Granny Chiyo. The best kunoichi of them all. She beat(maybe) an Akatsuki, so no other has surpased her yet.

If anything Sakura should have been thinking about Chiyo. She had no hesitation killing Sasori. She knew he was messed up.

Raven Uchiha
02-27-2010, 01:21 PM
I like this thread, and I totally understand why she couldn't kill him because she remembers back when Sasuke is leaving and he says "Thank-you" to her.

Shikamaru Nara
02-27-2010, 01:26 PM
Well, we hate Sakura because she's promised us a few things, such as not being a burden. We all know that that went down the toilet based on this chapter. She promised to stop Sasuke in any way she possibly could. Then why didn't she kill Sasuke right then, and there, when she hasd the perfect opportunity to prove herself to us. No. She let us down yet again, and it's unforgivable considering how many chances we gave her to get back on her feet.

I just can't bring myself to give her another chance, and frankly, I don't really think she deserves one from the fans that she let down. (I'm not a fan, just an example)

dillydally
02-27-2010, 01:34 PM
There is a flaw in your theory. You say she doesn't know yet. That's not true this is the second time. She failed the first time, it's quite easy to guess that she would fail the second time.

That was different, she was hesitating because she didn't want to kill Karin but at the same time knew that if she tried to attack than that she wouldn't succed in a suprise attack since Sasuke was kinda expecting that; and since she wouldn't be able to defet him in a fair fight she would must likely fail. At that moment I don't think she was even worried about not being emotionally ready to kill Sasuke.

Even more so, I don't know if I agree it's hard to predict how one will act under pressure. There's no certainity but one can guess. Then again I have a very analytical mind. I can predict how I will act without having to experience the feeling at the time.

Yes but have you ever been in a situation as intense as Sakura's, have you ever have to kill some one you love? My theory mainly about extreme situations. Alot of my theory is based on what I know about 'the fight or flight response' which is about how organisms react in stressful situations.

But more importantly, was it really such a surprise to Sakura that she didn't have the guts to follow through. It's one thing to think you can do it, but she had to know she could do it. Even if there was some doubt she should have realized that it was a bad idea. If she wants to kill herself that's one thing, but the second time she put Naruto and Kakashi in danger as well.

I never thought Sakura would kill Sasuke, because Plot no Justu would never allow it. She didn't put Kakashi and Naruto in danger it was their decision to jump into battle if they didn't want to fight Sasuke or put themselves in danger they could of let Sakura die, it was their choice to involve themselves in Sakura's fight.

This isn't practise, she only had one shot. Even a sliver of uncertainity should have been enough for Sakura reconsider, she is a smart cookie. In otherwords, I have high standards for Sakura, but she failed them.

I'll admit I was expecting more of Sakura too, but she acted in a human way and I'm not upset with her because of it.

She is not the only one to do this. Naruto was an idiot for chasing after Deidara during the Gaara rescue arc. However, Naruto has an instinct personality it's expected of him. However, lately Naruto has been thinking about his actions more than Sakura. When did Naruto become the smartest of the three?

Good question. It so weird to think how much more rational Naruto has become compared to Sasuke and Sakura. I would of never of seen it coming pre-shippuden.

But no one should hate Sakura, if you don't like her don't waste the energy. If you do like her, then there are many things she needs to improve. That can't be denied.

Yes she does need to improve but that's what I like about her :D.

3littlepigs
02-27-2010, 01:35 PM
That was different, she was hesitating because she didn't want to kill Karin but at the same time knew that if she tried to attack than that she wouldn't succed in a suprise attack since Sasuke was kinda expecting that; and since she wouldn't be able to defet him in a fair fight she would must likely fail. At that moment I don't think she was even worried about not being emotionally ready to kill Sasuke.
She hesitated period. I get it, she didn't want to kill Karin but she put herself in that situation by 1) thinking Sasuke would buy her lie that she would follow him no matter what 2) Taking too long to attack Sasuke. Yeah, she could have missed the "surprise" part of her plan but she would have died/failed trying and being committed to her cause. Instead she hesitated about what to do too long and if Kakashi hadn't gotten there on time she would've died for being indecisive and turning her back on her enemy.
Hey you forgot Granny Chiyo. The best kunoichi of them all. She beat(maybe) an Akatsuki, so no other has surpased her yet.

If anything Sakura should have been thinking about Chiyo. She had no hesitation killing Sasori. She knew he was messed up.
Mmm...Well I guess I could include her, it's just I was thinking more of the young kunoichi compared to the younger guys.
I like this thread, and I totally understand why she couldn't kill him because she remembers back when Sasuke is leaving and he says "Thank-you" to her.
...Sakura keeps remembering that because it's the only memory she has that supports her idea of having a "bond" with Sasuke....:roll:

C4 Karura
02-27-2010, 01:44 PM
But it is unrealistic for someone to really know what they are capable of doing without ever done it before. You have to understand that Sakura honestly thought that she be able to kill Sasuke without backing out, and in her mind she thought that she emotionally prepare to do it too. I don't believe she didn't actually have any hesitations about killing Sasuke until the very last moment, which is an extremely human quality. This is something that people deal with in real life. An example of this is that I don't have a fear of public speaking, nor do I have a problem doing so, but there have been occasions (not ever time tho) where I'm fine until I get to the podium and then I start to shake and find it extremely difficult to speak, which I find weird since I can do acting on stage and I am really good at debating/giving presentations in class, so generally I don't have a problem speaking in front of people. The point of that story is that you can't always know how you will react to a situation and you may think you'll react one way but in reality when your in a situation you'll act in a completely different way, Sakura is no exeption to this. You say that she should know her mind as if it is something easily done, but it really isn't. It is very rare for a person to truely know themselves, and those that do knew them self well enough to know how they will react in every situation are very special (ever heard of the saying you can not know how you will react in a situation until you live it). It is also very important to remember that Sakura isn't suppose to be this special above human standers being, she is the normal one and she is the most human character in the show, which is the reason why I like her so much but it is also the reason why people hate her so much.

Sorry for picking on you even tho you haven't been bashing Sakura like alot of people but that statement bothered me.

P.S- C4 great thread I agree with you completely, I tried to rep you but apparently I have repped you recently which I don't really remember when but oh well.
Nice post! Rep Up!
EDIT: I have to spread it around first.

Originally Posted by C4 Karura http://naruto.viz.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2559535#post2559535)
I'll change my font color because people seem to be bother by it...

What do you mean you didn't notice anything when you read it? I gave you a whole bunch of reasons as to why I consider she was useless in the last two chapters. Also I never said it's forbidden for her to cry, she's only human and so she has the right to cry. I meant that she shouldn't be crying at times like that...if she's unable to control her emotions and she can't stop crying then let others handle it! that's what I've been saying all along!
I think having the tears streaming down her cheeks was more for drama than any sort of character judgement. I mean, seriously, wouldn't Sasuke HEAR her crying long before tears started running down her face?

Yeah, we agree on that whether she had killed him or not she would have been an emotional wreck afterward...that's typical Sakura. The thing is if she hasn't realized by now that she'll never be able to kill him (in terms of strength and emotionally as well) than she's worse off than I thought.
Listen to my case. She's shown she has the strength to kill him, and she didn't realize she wasn't emotionally ready until she was actually standing behind him.

Again I fail to see your point since I wasn't debating her "strategy" to begin with. Either way, she let her guard down...for someone who doesn't trust the two people she was surrounded by (Sasuke and Karin) Sasuke was about to get her way too easily...Sakura hadn't even noticed until Karin spoke. That's how good her plan was...
Yes, she totally let down her guard, but I think we can write this off as another case of Plot no Jutsu, used to let Kakashi make a "dramatic" entrance. Seriously, she's a CHUNIN, and she's letting him move behind her, activate Chidori, and then move to hit her with it without her noticing? Wouldn't she hear the Chidori, due to the loud, annoying chirping it causes? This is completely, utterly, Plot no Jutsu, and should be disregarded as another one of Kishi's sexist retcons.

She hesitated all right...if she had been a 100% determined and committed to killing Sasuke anyway possible she wouldn't have hesitated right there...I don't know at least that's the way I see it. Because it took her long enough to come to a decision she let herself wide open to Sasuke's attack. You should never turn your back on your enemy yet she did...which means deep down she still didn't fully consider him an enemy.
She THOUGHT she was 100% percent sure. Read DD's post. She puts it better than me.

Yes, I did say she was useless. We're not debating whether her actions are plot related or not...obviously characters like Sasuke and Naruto get lucky, etc all the time simply because of their roles in the series and Sakura's no exception. As a heroine she kind of sucks and though it's Kishi's fault I can still get mad at her and dislike her for it just like I do with Sasuke.
Hmm... Fair point.

Exactly and as soon as she realized that she shouldn't have intervened any more.
By the time she realized that, she was standing right behind him. How was she supposed to get away? The only thing to do was to try to convince herself to stab Sasuke, since this would be anybody's best chance, but he noticed her before she could do that.

The thing is I'm not a shinobi! killing people isn't my job! it's theirs....I'm not trivializing anything. This is a ninja series we're talking about not something like Fruits Basket. If she couldn't make up her mind fast enough to stab him the first time (when she was supposed to kill Karin) then emotionally she wasn't in the right place....also if she didn't want to kill him but all of a sudden just wanted to protect Kakashi (which that's not the case she just didn't want him carrying the burden alone) then yeah she should have stabbed Sasuke to stop him and protect Kakashi. She probably doesn't know Kakashi is Hokage now but I bet you even if she knew she still wouldn't have stabbed Sasuke. Isn't it her job to protect the Hokage? to protect Konoha? that's why I think even if she "loved" him or just because he's a childhood friend she still had a responsability to either get out of the way or carry her actions all the way through.

She failed miserably at both...
Wow. You just won this one. The "she's a ninja" case blew my case out of the water.

You're not the only one...I'm dissapointed in general with all the Kunoichi in Naruto. The only two that save the day are Temari and Konan.
Exactly.

Well didn't she consider Sakura an enemy even after she was healing her? You did get the "Sakura healing her part" right though :)
Sakura's pain is affecting her. Regardless of whether she wants to or not, she's clearly feeling empathy for her "enemy".
You're making several good points.

Wooster
02-27-2010, 01:52 PM
That was different, she was hesitating because she didn't want to kill Karin but at the same time knew that if she tried to attack than that she wouldn't succed in a suprise attack since Sasuke was kinda expecting that; and since she wouldn't be able to defet him in a fair fight she would must likely fail. At that moment I don't think she was even worried about not being emotionally ready to kill Sasuke.

Nonsense, she was freaked out before she even approached him, thus long before he asked her to kill Karin. Just to clarify her hesitation here makes complete sense.

Yes but have you ever been in a situation as intense as Sakura's, have you ever have to kill some one you love? My theory mainly about extreme situations. Alot of my theory is based on what I know about 'the fight or flight response' which is about how organisms react in stressful situations.
Obivously not. But Sakura has been trained to kill and has been in many battles. What I mean to say she is a warrior. The only difference here was that it was someone she'd loved. She really couldn't figure this out? Makes sense, but what doesn't make sense that she didn't know she couldn't figure it out. Naruto's reaction makes sense hers doesn't. She should have been running her battle plan through her head. She should have pictured killing Sasuke, if that picture disturbed her, she should have abandoned her plan and let someone else kill Sasuke. Like all the rest of us normal people would do in the same situation.

I never thought Sakura would kill Sasuke, because Plot no Justu would never allow it. She didn't put Kakashi and Naruto in danger it was their decision to jump into battle if they didn't want to fight Sasuke or put themselves in danger they could of let Sakura die, it was their choice to involve themselves in Sakura's fight.
Boulderdash, Kakashi was right in the middle of the battle. SHE interrupted. You can't believe that Saskura didn't know that at least Kakashi would without a doubt try to rescue her. She put him in danger.


I'll admit I was expecting more of Sakura too, but she acted in a human way and I'm not upset with her because of it.

Yes she did. It shouldn't have been hard for Sakura to know this before she carried out her plan.

C4 Karura
02-27-2010, 01:53 PM
Sorry but I tried to reply to each of her points in the argument....
I'm a guy...

Hey you forgot Granny Chiyo. The best kunoichi of them all. She beat(maybe) an Akatsuki, so no other has surpased her yet.

If anything Sakura should have been thinking about Chiyo. She had no hesitation killing Sasori. She knew he was messed up.
Nice point bringing up Granny Chiyo. Yes, she managed to kill Sasori, but she's a better kunoichi than Sakura is. She's (hopefully) who Sakura will model herself after as she tries to recover from her failure in this fight.
Yes she does need to improve but that's what I like about her :D.
Yet another excellent post from DD.
Well, we hate Sakura because she's promised us a few things, such as not being a burden. We all know that that went down the toilet based on this chapter. She promised to stop Sasuke in any way she possibly could. Then why didn't she kill Sasuke right then, and there, when she hasd the perfect opportunity to prove herself to us. No. She let us down yet again, and it's unforgivable considering how many chances we gave her to get back on her feet.

I just can't bring myself to give her another chance, and frankly, I don't really think she deserves one from the fans that she let down. (I'm not a fan, just an example)
You do make a very nice case with this post, even if I don't agree with it completely.
...Sakura keeps remembering that because it's the only memory she has that supports her idea of having a "bond" with Sasuke....:roll:
You mean Kishi keeps on making her remember it, becuase it's the only way to make it believable that she would act so flaky.

dillydally
02-27-2010, 01:54 PM
She hesitated period. I get it, she didn't want to kill Karin but she put herself in that situation by 1) thinking Sasuke would buy her lie that she would follow him no matter what 2) Taking too long to attack Sasuke. Yeah, she could have missed the "surprise" part of her plan but she would have died/failed trying and being committed to her cause. Instead she hesitated about what to do too long and if Kakashi hadn't gotten there on time she would've died for being indecisive and turning her back on her enemy.

Yes she hesitated but that not the point. She hesitated the two times she tried to kill Sasuke for two completely different reasons, one has nothing to do with the other. You can't say that she shouldn't of attacked because 'since she hesitatated the last time it means she will hesitate the next, she should of known that' since those were two different situations and the factors that cause her to hesitate the first time were removed so she knew that she wasn't going to hesitatate for those reason, the only flaw in her plan was that she didn't know that she was going to get all emotional right before the killing blow; if you look at her face when she was sneaking up on him it doesn't even hint at hesitation which show that she didn't have any until it was too late to pull out.

C4 Karura
02-27-2010, 01:56 PM
Obivously not. But Sakura has been trained to kill and has been in many battles. What I mean to say she is a warrior. The only difference here was that it was someone she'd loved. She really couldn't figure this out? Makes sense, but what doesn't make sense that she didn't know she couldn't figure it out. Naruto's reaction makes sense hers doesn't. She should have been running her battle plan through her head. She should have pictured killing Sasuke, if that picture disturbed her, she should have abandoned her plan and let someone else kill Sasuke. Like all the rest of us normal people would do in the same situation.


Once again, the "she's a ninja" case is the best one I've heard from the other side. Rep Up for a good post! I actually agree with you on this one.
EDIT: Dang. Why have I already given recent rep to all the good case makers on this thread?

C4 Karura
02-27-2010, 01:59 PM
Yes she hesitated but that not the point. She hesitated the two times she tried to kill Sasuke for two completely different reasons, one has nothing to do with the other. You can't say that she shouldn't of attacked because 'since she hesitatated the last time it means she will hesitate the next, she should of known that' since those were two different situations and the factors that cause her to hesitate the first time were removed so she knew that she wasn't going to hesitatate for those reason, the only flaw in her plan was that she didn't know that she was going to get all emotional right before the killing blow; if you look at her face when she was sneaking up on him it doesn't even hint at hesitation which show that she didn't have any until it was too late to pull out.
You just put what I've been trying to say perfectly. Nice job.

Wooster
02-27-2010, 01:59 PM
I'm a guy...

I'm sorry, but I pictured Haku when you said that.:D


Once again, the "she's a ninja" case is the best one I've heard from the other side. Rep Up for a good post! I actually agree with you on this one.
EDIT: Dang. Why have I already given recent rep to all the good case makers on this thread?

That's because were too cool for rep.

3littlepigs
02-27-2010, 02:04 PM
I think having the tears streaming down her cheeks was more for drama than any sort of character judgement. I mean, seriously, wouldn't Sasuke HEAR her crying long before tears started running down her face?
Huh? Sasuke was kind of obsessing with killing Kakashi at the time...and then he got distracted for a moment because of his blindness (the moment that allowed her to get behind him) Sooner or later with or without tears he would have noticed someone behind him...is that what you were referring to?

Listen to my case. She's shown she has the strength to kill him, and she didn't realize she wasn't emotionally ready until she was actually standing behind him.
Ok then listen to my case, she doesn't have the strength to kill him...she's smart when she wants to be that's different. And if she actually wasn't in denial with everything that concerns Sasuke she should have noticed she wasn't ready when she hesitated to attack him the first time. I know you say she only hesitated to kill Karin but that's not the case...she just wasn't determined enough to try and kill Sasuke even without the surprise factor.

Yes, she totally let down her guard, but I think we can write this off as another case of Plot no Jutsu, used to let Kakashi make a "dramatic" entrance. Seriously, she's a CHUNIN, and she's letting him move behind her, activate Chidori, and then move to hit her with it without her noticing? Wouldn't she hear the Chidori, due to the loud, annoying chirping it causes? This is completely, utterly, Plot no Jutsu, and should be disregarded as another one of Kishi's sexist retcons.
Ok then blami Kishi not the readers!! you're saying it's not a valid reason to consider her weak, useless and a crybaby but even if it's for plot use the fact is she let her guard down and it makes her look bad...people are going to complain and dislike it that it's inevitable.

She THOUGHT she was 100% percent sure. Read DD's post. She puts it better than me.
Ok then if she realized that the 1st time then why the heck didn't she listen to Kakashi and stay the heck out of the fight? the whole "I thought I was ready....Oh but I'm not.." excuse can only be used so much! I can understand her thinking she was ready at the village, when she left the village, on her way to meet Naruto, after talking and lying to Naruto, after putting everyone to sleep...and even then when she saw him again after so long but as soon as she turned her back on Sasuke and hesitated to attack him without the element of surprise it's impossible not to realize she wasn't ready! She keeps pretending and lying to herself and so puts everyone else at risk how is that not irresponsible for a Kunoichi? oh and how doesn't it make her look useless?

Oh and who's DD?

By the time she realized that, she was standing right behind him. How was she supposed to get away? The only thing to do was to try to convince herself to stab Sasuke, since this would be anybody's best chance, but he noticed her before she could do that.
By the time she knew she hadn't really assimilated the new Sasuke, Kakashi saved her!! She has no excuse for going back into the fight unless like I said before she was trying to protect Kakashi but then supposing that had been the case she was completely irresponsible not to carry her decision all the way through.

Wow. You just won this one. The "she's a ninja" case blew my case out of the water.
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not...:shock:

Sakura's pain is affecting her. Regardless of whether she wants to or not, she's clearly feeling empathy for her "enemy".
You're making several good points.
Yes, I can see that. Clearly Sakura's feelings were hurting Karin too...I meant that a small part of her didn't want to feel empathy for Sakura because Sakura is Sasuke's enemy and Karin still has feelings for that psycho.

3littlepigs
02-27-2010, 02:16 PM
Yes she hesitated but that not the point. She hesitated the two times she tried to kill Sasuke for two completely different reasons, one has nothing to do with the other. You can't say that she shouldn't of attacked because 'since she hesitatated the last time it means she will hesitate the next, she should of known that' since those were two different situations and the factors that cause her to hesitate the first time were removed so she knew that she wasn't going to hesitatate for those reason, the only flaw in her plan was that she didn't know that she was going to get all emotional right before the killing blow; if you look at her face when she was sneaking up on him it doesn't even hint at hesitation which show that she didn't have any until it was too late to pull out.
You're not understanding what I'm saying or maybe I'm not explaining myself correctly.

Yes, I understand she hesitated to kill Karin...even if this is a ninja series and she shouldn't have hesitated I can still see why she would and I'm not criticizing her for it.

My point is if she had been completely determined to kill Sasuke she would have tried even if it meant her plan would fail and that she would die in the process. She took longer to act because she hesitated to attack Sasuke without the element of surprise...what I'm trying to say is if she didn't want to kill Karin and she was already right next to Sasuke then she only had one option: try to kill him even if it failed!

What did she not realize that she only had two options the moment she jumped to where Sasuke was and got next to him? She either killed Karin and hoped that Sasuke would buy her lie or she let Karin live, prove to Sasuke she was lying and get killed by him. As soon as she decided not to kill Karin she knew what she had to do...there was no way she could have just said "Oh Sasuke I do want to follow you but I don't feel like killing her so..let me get away from you for the time being and plan something else to get close to you again, have an element of surprise and kill you"

Her hesitation was to kill Sasuke from the beginning...the second she decided not to kill Karin it was a decision of whether to kill Sasuke or not and since she wasn't ready she almost got killed.



That's because were too cool for rep.
LOL :p well at least it seems you agree with me...with our expectations of the characters in a ninja series.

3littlepigs
02-27-2010, 02:20 PM
I'm a guy...

Oops..sorry about the misunderstanding. :p

Wooster
02-27-2010, 02:25 PM
LOL :p well at least it seems you agree with me...with our expectations of the characters in a ninja series.
Yes, I have high standards. If you can't cut it, then get out of the kitchen.

But, if you want to disagree, I could bring back my old Danzo thread.;)
But I think I rather let him rest in peace. I couldn't stand those "Danzo was misunderstood" posts. Even worse "Danzo was hot" posts. Urge to kill rising.

3littlepigs
02-27-2010, 02:30 PM
Yes, I have high standards. If you can't cut it, then get out of the kitchen.

But, if you want to disagree, I could bring back my old Danzo thread.;)
But I think I rather let him rest in peace. I couldn't stand those "Danzo was misunderstood" posts. Even worse "Danzo was hot" posts. Urge to kill rising.
lol No, that's ok we agreed to disagree :D and yeah me too. I think the whole "Would you be able to do it?" excuse is lame since this is a ninja series...the characters should act like ninjas then. That would be like feeling sorry for a Samurai because he has to killl...it's their job.:roll:

C4 Karura
02-27-2010, 02:34 PM
Huh? Sasuke was kind of obsessing with killing Kakashi at the time...and then he got distracted for a moment because of his blindness (the moment that allowed her to get behind him) Sooner or later with or without tears he would have noticed someone behind him...is that what you were referring to?
I mean that having her break down and start crying was for the sake of making the scene more dramatic. It would NOT take Sasuke that long to notice her crying, even if he's focusing on his eyes.

Ok then listen to my case, she doesn't have the strength to kill him...she's smart when she wants to be that's different. And if she actually wasn't in denial with everything that concerns Sasuke she should have noticed she wasn't ready when she hesitated to attack him the first time. I know you say she only hesitated to kill Karin but that's not the case...she just wasn't determined enough to try and kill Sasuke even without the surprise factor.

Ok then blami Kishi not the readers!! you're saying it's not a valid reason to consider her weak, useless and a crybaby but even if it's for plot use the fact is she let her guard down and it makes her look bad...people are going to complain and dislike it that it's inevitable.
Ok, fine. Sakura made some bad decisions in this chapter, even if they are total retcons of everything she's done for the past year of release. Hopefully, Kishi will stop hating all his female characters soon.
Ok then if she realized that the 1st time then why the heck didn't she listen to Kakashi and stay the heck out of the fight? the whole "I thought I was ready....Oh but I'm not.." excuse can only be used so much! I can understand her thinking she was ready at the village, when she left the village, on her way to meet Naruto, after talking and lying to Naruto, after putting everyone to sleep...and even then when she saw him again after so long but as soon as she turned her back on Sasuke and hesitated to attack him without the element of surprise it's impossible not to realize she wasn't ready! She keeps pretending and lying to herself and so puts everyone else at risk how is that not irresponsible for a Kunoichi? oh and how doesn't it make her look useless?

By the time she knew she hadn't really assimilated the new Sasuke, Kakashi saved her!! She has no excuse for going back into the fight unless like I said before she was trying to protect Kakashi but then supposing that had been the case she was completely irresponsible not to carry her decision all the way through.
She's a 16-year-old girl. She can't be expected to always make perfect decisions.

Oh and who's DD?
Dillydally.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not...:shock:
I wasn't. However, since then, I've thought of the "she's only sixteen" argument, which (somewhat) trumps it.

Yes, I can see that. Clearly Sakura's feelings were hurting Karin too...I meant that a small part of her didn't want to feel empathy for Sakura because Sakura is Sasuke's enemy and Karin still has feelings for that psycho.
Well, I think she's more dissapointed becuase she's losing the dream she had for so long (to have a relationship with Sasuke). She's knows by this point that it's never going to happen, and she needs to move on.

Lady Tsunade
02-27-2010, 02:51 PM
100% Agreed! People only ever concentrate on Sakuras flaws, they never look past them to see the positives which lie behind them.

+Rep! ;)

3littlepigs
02-27-2010, 02:56 PM
I mean that having her break down and start crying was for the sake of making the scene more dramatic. It would NOT take Sasuke that long to notice her crying, even if he's focusing on his eyes.
I think I'm done arguing that...yeah it happened that way only because Kishi wanted it to but it did even if it's not realistic (like most Sasuke fights)

Ok, fine. Sakura made some bad decisions in this chapter, even if they are total retcons of everything she's done for the past year of release. Hopefully, Kishi will stop hating all his female characters soon.
True, I'm hoping the guy gets a clue soon as to how to make a good heroine in a story....so far he's failed at it.


She's a 16-year-old girl. She can't be expected to always make perfect decisions.
Yes, she's a 16-yr old girl but she's also a kunoichi. She decided that was the life she wanted and so she has responsibilities that seem cruel but are only normal in the shinobi world.

I wasn't. However, since then, I've thought of the "she's only sixteen" argument, which (somewhat) trumps it.
Her being 16 doesn't excuse her irresponsible behavior...after all she's not a normal teenager having a normal teenager life. She's a ninja....:roll:


Well, I think she's more dissapointed becuase she's losing the dream she had for so long (to have a relationship with Sasuke). She's knows by this point that it's never going to happen, and she needs to move on.
You mean Sakura or Karin? I would think both...

dillydally
02-27-2010, 03:03 PM
Nonsense, she was freaked out before she even approached him, thus long before he asked her to kill Karin. Just to clarify her hesitation here makes complete sense.


Obivously not. But Sakura has been trained to kill and has been in many battles. What I mean to say she is a warrior. The only difference here was that it was someone she'd loved. She really couldn't figure this out? Makes sense, but what doesn't make sense that she didn't know she couldn't figure it out. Naruto's reaction makes sense hers doesn't. She should have been running her battle plan through her head. She should have pictured killing Sasuke, if that picture disturbed her, she should have abandoned her plan and let someone else kill Sasuke. Like all the rest of us normal people would do in the same situation.


Boulderdash, Kakashi was right in the middle of the battle. SHE interrupted. You can't believe that Saskura didn't know that at least Kakashi would without a doubt try to rescue her. She put him in danger.


Yes she did. It shouldn't have been hard for Sakura to know this before she carried out her plan.

You make a good cases, in fact you driven me to look up Sakura quotes so that I can explain her mind set:

"Please don't say anything more........I will talk to naruto"

"I'm the one who has caused him the most pain, I've done nothing but make mistakes, I don't want to make another one."

"I said I don't care about sasuke any more and I was crazy to ever love him"- I think she was trying to convince herself this more than naruto

"Naruto I'm sorry"

"Sai I'm only going to say this once, get out of my way..!"

"He is like a different person is this really Sasuke"

"This is definately, not the old Sasuke-kun. He's changed."

"If I kill sasuke-kun now.. everything will be over.."

"I can't let you bear this burden, Kakashi sensi"

"I can't tell Naruto about this, I have to do it my self."

"I have to be prepared! I will kill Sasuke-kun!!!"

"I really thought I could do it"

I have to admit that after re-reading all these chapters I realized something else about Sakura. I think from the very begining she realized that she might of have a hard time killing Sasuke and because of that she has been steeling herself this whole arc so that she would be prepare to kill him when the time came. I also believe that it is because Sakura is a warrior that she knew that she needed to kill Sauke and was willing to do it in the first place. This whole arc Sakura has spent mentally readying her self to kill Sasuke and I am 100% certain that she thought she was capable of killing him without hesitation, because she knew he needed to die and it was her duty to kill him. You may say that because she of her not been emotionally ready to kill Sasuke she shouldn't of done it, but she is a ninja, it is her job to put her emotions aside and do what is nessicary. Her downfall was the she overestimated her ablitiy to keep her emotions at bay, which I don't think she thought would happen, the last quote she said "I really thought I could do it" confirms this to me.


aaahhh and there was something else that I really what to says to warp this up but I forgot it, also I really tired right now so i didn't edit please forgive any grammer and spelling mistakes. I will edit later

C4 Karura
02-27-2010, 03:10 PM
I think I'm done arguing that...yeah it happened that way only because Kishi wanted it to but it did even if it's not realistic (like most Sasuke fights)
Lol. Yeah. Like in the Diedera fight, when he's randomly given the ability to survive 500-foot drops.

True, I'm hoping the guy gets a clue soon as to how to make a good heroine in a story....so far he's failed at it.
Sakura was okay at the start of Part 2. It's after that that he started hating her again.

Yes, she's a 16-yr old girl but she's also a kunoichi. She decided that was the life she wanted and so she has responsibilities that seem cruel but are only normal in the shinobi world.


Her being 16 doesn't excuse her irresponsible behavior...after all she's not a normal teenager having a normal teenager life. She's a ninja....:roll:
Fine. "She's a ninja" trumps "16-year-old".

You mean Sakura or Karin? I would think both...
I mean Karin. Sakura failing to kill Sasuke at that moment is probably going to haunt her, and the people who die as he continues to kill will (hopefully) drive her to actually become strong, and kill him for real next time. (Not that Kishi will let anyone other than Naruto kill Sasuke, but at least she won't be as flaky anymore.) So, I think this the final result of our debate: Sakura made some pretty bad and irresponsible decisions in this chapter, but they were all for the sake of plot, and completely retcon for the story. Hopefully Kishi will stop making her act out-of-character soon.

dillydally
02-27-2010, 03:14 PM
So, I think this the final result of our debate: Sakura made some pretty bad and irresponsible decisions in this chapter, but they were all for the sake of plot, and completely retcon for the story. Hopefully Kishi will stop making her act out-of-character soon.

No C4 don't give up! :cry:

C4 Karura
02-27-2010, 03:15 PM
You make a good cases, in fact you driven me to look up Sakura quotes so that I can explain her mind set:

"Please don't say anything more........I will talk to naruto"

"I'm the one who has caused him the most pain, I've done nothing but make mistakes, I don't want to make another one."

"I said I don't care about sasuke any more and I was crazy to ever love him"- I think she was trying to convince herself this more than naruto

"Naruto I'm sorry"

"Sai I'm only going to say this once, get out of my way..!"

"He is like a different person is this really Sasuke"

"This is definately, not the old Sasuke-kin. He's changed."

"If I kill sasuke-kun now.. everything will be over.."

"I can't let you bear this burden, Kakashi sensi"

"I can't tell Naruto about this, I have to do it my self."

"I have to be prepared! I will kill Sasuke-kun!!!"

"I really thought I could do it"

I have to admit that after re-reading all these chapters I realized something else about Sakura. I think from the very begining she realized that she might of had a hard time killing Sasuke and because of the she has been steeling herself this whole arc so that she would be prepare to kill him when the time came. I also believe that it is because Sakura is a warrior that she knew that she needed to kill Sauke and was willing to do it in the first place. This whole arc Sakura has spent mentally readying her self to kill Sasuke and I am 100% certain that she thought she was capable of killing him without hesitation, because she knew he needed to die and it was her duty to kill him. You may say that because she of not been emotionally ready to kill Sasuke she should of done it, but she is a ninja it is her job to put her emotions aside and do what is nessicary. Her downfall was the she overestimated her ablitiy to keep her emotions at bay, which I don't think she thought would happen, the last quote she said "I really thought I could do it" confirms this to me.

aaahhh and there was something else that I really what to says to warp this up but I forgot it, also I really tired right now so i didn't edit please forgive any grammer and spelling mistakes. I will edit later
Wow. I had written off her stopping as retcon for plot's sake, but this post let me see another level to the arc I had never seen before. I think I've changed my mind. Respond to this, 3littlepigs.

Wooster
02-27-2010, 03:44 PM
You make a good cases, in fact you driven me to look up Sakura quotes so that I can explain her mind set:

"Please don't say anything more........I will talk to naruto"

"I'm the one who has caused him the most pain, I've done nothing but make mistakes, I don't want to make another one."

"I said I don't care about sasuke any more and I was crazy to ever love him"- I think she was trying to convince herself this more than naruto

"Naruto I'm sorry"

"Sai I'm only going to say this once, get out of my way..!"

"He is like a different person is this really Sasuke"

"This is definately, not the old Sasuke-kun. He's changed."

"If I kill sasuke-kun now.. everything will be over.."

"I can't let you bear this burden, Kakashi sensi"

"I can't tell Naruto about this, I have to do it my self."

"I have to be prepared! I will kill Sasuke-kun!!!"

"I really thought I could do it"

Yassup, that's alot of quotes.

Looks to me like Sakura was trying to convince herself she was ready. Ah, Great. If you're trying to do that, it most likely means you're not ready. Again I give her some slack for the first failure. One: Sasuke was way out there. Two: at the time she wasn't putting anyone in danger but herself. Second time I give her no slack. She had plenty of evidence she couldn't do it. She ignored all that. Poor form for a shinobi, particularly a supposedly smart one.

I have to admit that after re-reading all these chapters I realized something else about Sakura. I think from the very begining she realized that she might of have a hard time killing Sasuke and because of that she has been steeling herself this whole arc so that she would be prepare to kill him when the time came. I also believe that it is because Sakura is a warrior that she knew that she needed to kill Sauke and was willing to do it in the first place. This whole arc Sakura has spent mentally readying her self to kill Sasuke and I am 100% certain that she thought she was capable of killing him without hesitation, because she knew he needed to die and it was her duty to kill him. You may say that because she of her not been emotionally ready to kill Sasuke she shouldn't of done it, but she is a ninja, it is her job to put her emotions aside and do what is nessicary. Her downfall was the she overestimated her ablitiy to keep her emotions at bay, which I don't think she thought would happen, the last quote she said "I really thought I could do it" confirms this to me.


aaahhh and there was something else that I really what to says to warp this up but I forgot it, also I really tired right now so i didn't edit please forgive any grammer and spelling mistakes. I will edit later

Overestimating one's abilities is a flaw. One that at this point Sakura shouldn't have anymore. If at some point Sakura said to herself that she couldn't kill Sasuke, I'd have no more problem with her than Naruto. That is very little.

In a situation like this you never want to think "I really thought I could do it" because that means you're dead. Fortunately, for Sakura she has Naruto. That's why Naruto is respected and Sakura is not.

dillydally
02-27-2010, 03:57 PM
Yassup, that's alot of quotes.

Looks to me like Sakura was trying to convince herself she was ready. Ah, Great. If you're trying to do that, it most likely means you're not ready. Again I give her some slack for the first failure. One: Sasuke was way out there. Two: at the time she wasn't putting anyone in danger but herself. Second time I give her no slack. She had plenty of evidence she couldn't do it. She ignored all that. Poor form for a shinobi, particularly a supposedly smart one.

Overestimating one's abilities is a flaw. One that at this point Sakura shouldn't have anymore. If at some point Sakura said to herself that she couldn't kill Sasuke, I'd have no more problem with her than Naruto. That is very little.

In a situation like this you never want to think "I really thought I could do it" because that means you're dead. Fortunately, for Sakura she has Naruto. That's why Naruto is respected and Sakura is not.

But isn't Naruto the same way, he overestimated his abilities when he fought Sasuke the fight time and he lost.

Here's some more food for thought isn't the main theme of this manga is to try as hard as you can even if all the odd are agaist you!!!! Hating Sakura for failing to kill Sasuke is like hating Hinata for failing to defeat Neji or Pain; the points is that she tried and she didn't give up until it was clear that she would be able to do it, which in my book is better than her sitting around in the villege doing nothing but crying.

Wooster
02-27-2010, 04:09 PM
But isn't Naruto the same way, he overestimated his abilities when he fought Sasuke the fight time and he lost.

Here's some more food for thought isn't the main theme of this manga is to try as hard as you can even if all the odd are agaist you!!!! Hating Sakura for failing to kill Sasuke is like hating Hinata for failing to defeat Neji or Pain; the points is that she tried and she didn't give up until it was clear that she would be able to do it, which in my book is better than her sitting around in the villege doing nothing but crying.
Naruto was twelve then. Not to mention it was a mission. In otherwords, in the end it was Tsunade's fault. Or do you mean later? In that case, they were surprised by Sasuke's new attitude.

In Hinata's case she didn't die by fighting Neji she certainly didn't put anyone else in danger. It was only a mock battle however lethal it could be. During the Pain fight Hinata attempted to protect Nartuo didn't work out so well, but she didn't hurt Naruto. Sakura interfered with Kakashi's battle. It really screwed up what he was trying to do.

dillydally
02-27-2010, 04:18 PM
Naruto was twelve then. Not to mention it was a mission. In otherwords, in the end it was Tsunade's fault. Or do you mean later? In that case, they were surprised by Sasuke's new attitude.

In Hinata's case she didn't die by fighting Neji she certainly didn't put anyone else in danger. It was only a mock battle however lethal it could be. During the Pain fight Hinata attempted to protect Nartuo didn't work out so well, but she didn't hurt Naruto. Sakura interfered with Kakashi's battle. It really screwed up what he was trying to do.

Do you really think that Naruto wouldn't of gone after Sasuke mission or not? Naruto can still be reckless at times, remember his encounters with Madara and his fight with Deidara.

Yes Hinata really didn't put any one in danger when her getting almost kill cause Naruto to transform into 6 tails and almost fully unleash the 9 tails....yeah....that wouldn't of indangered any one in the village.... -_-

Wooster
02-27-2010, 04:33 PM
Do you really think that Naruto wouldn't of gone after Sasuke mission or not? Naruto can still be reckless at times, remember his encounters with Madara and his fight with Deidara.

Yes Hinata really didn't put any one in danger when her getting almost kill cause Naruto to transform into 6 tails and almost fully unleash the 9 tails....yeah....that wouldn't of indangered any one in the village.... -_-
Sarcasm eh? Still Tsunade thought was a good idea. Then again apparently Tsunade thinks like a 12 year old boy. In any case, Naruto was reckless, comparing Sakura to old Naruto isn't doing her any favors. But most importantly, Naruto never did anything with hesitation. Such as protecting Tsunade against Kabuto. He could have died, but it wouldn't have been because he hesitated.

Likewise, with Hinata, whose actions were self described as selfish. Yes, yes they were, but again no hesitation. It would be hard for Hinata to know Naruto regularly blows up into a tailed foxes when he is mad. Not to mention if she didn't do this, Naruto would have been captured by Pain.

If Sasuke killed Sakura here isn't it likely the same thing could have happened to Naruto. She probably could guess that Naruto was following Kakashi.

That's the problem, you can only can compare Sakura to other's somewhat poor decisions, and still they look better.

dillydally
02-27-2010, 05:03 PM
Sarcasm eh? Still Tsunade thought was a good idea. Then again apparently Tsunade thinks like a 12 year old boy. In any case, Naruto was reckless, comparing Sakura to old Naruto isn't doing her any favors. But most importantly, Naruto never did anything with hesitation. Such as protecting Tsunade against Kabuto. He could have died, but it wouldn't have been because he hesitated.

Likewise, with Hinata, whose actions were self described as selfish. Yes, yes they were, but again no hesitation. It would be hard for Hinata to know Naruto regularly blows up into a tailed foxes when he is mad. Not to mention if she didn't do this, Naruto would have been captured by Pain.

If Sasuke killed Sakura here isn't it likely the same thing could have happened to Naruto. She probably could guess that Naruto was following Kakashi.

That's the problem, you can only can compare Sakura to other's somewhat poor decisions, and still they look better.

I was comparing her decision to Naruto's and Hinata's because even though their actions are simular Sakura, yet she is the one who get's the bad rep. Also is both those situation both Hinata and Naruto hesitated at first (Naruto at first didn't go all out with sasuke, and Hinata didn't jump into at fight because the other hyuuga said she would be useless.

My point is that it would be inhuman for anyone to not have any hesitation, especially when trying to kill someone you love. Not to be nasty but I would like to see the people who complain how see acted be put in her shoes

Also I think the point of her not being able to kill Sasuke is suppose to repperesent a comparison between him and her self.
Sasuke= person who has no problem killing someone who cares about him=evil
Sakura= person who can't kill someone who tried to kill her=good.

darkdemonofthemist
02-27-2010, 05:07 PM
I think it's funny how you talk about Sakura like she's a real person as though there's no one thinking for her.

The only reason she was able to sneak up on Sasuke in the first place is because he was temporarily unable to see correctly, which is why he was only able to notice her after she stopped. She probably wouldn't have been able to kill him in time anyways. And if he was able to see just fine, she wouldn't have had a chance pretty much ever because of his Sharingan. (has anybody noticed that he hasn't had his Sharingan off for a really long time?) He would've noticed her coming and she'd be in the same predicament one way or the other.

To me it would be pretty obvious that Sasuke wouldn't let her join his group anyway. Since she's from the village he wants to destroy, he would figure that she wouldn't be able to handle it very well.

And about the whole crybaby thing, Sakura cries more than anyone in the entire series. "Hey lets go to sleep!" "Naruto... *cries*" exaggeration I know, but a lot of other characters have been through way more than just a broken heart. Naruto, Sasuke and Gaara for instance. She could tone it down just a little bit.

I completely understand why she didn't kill Sasuke. Not because of her doubt, but because there's just too many loose ties in the series to have an extremely main character die at the hands of someone who's strength is only a fraction of. I don't think anyone's dying anytime soon. I think that Madara's going to show up because he cheats and will take Sasuke away and team 7 will have failed once more. I'm starting to think that failing at saving Sasuke is starting to be a reoccurring theme for this manga. Her bravery might be all used up after this and the Forest of Death incident.

IMO Kishi will always make Sakura the one who ultimately stands back and watches, never able to make up her mind or be a real contributer in extremely important and plot changing situations. Especially when it comes to Sasuke. It's never her battle, it's always someone else's. Naruto and Kakashi will try to fight Sasuke by themselves (until Madara shows up), and Sakura will be told to get out of the way, she won't listen, and someone will have to save her. There seems to be a cycle.

I figured someone would have to save her. She couldn't have gotten away from Sasuke on her own.

Naruto thought "I'll know the answer when I see him" and by the look on his face the answer isn't very positive. Also by the look on his face and how he saved sakura just in time, I think he was in a tree watching for a little bit before he finally came out.

SasuSaku is pretty much a crack couple at this point.

Just saying.

3littlepigs
02-27-2010, 05:23 PM
So, I think this the final result of our debate: Sakura made some pretty bad and irresponsible decisions in this chapter, but they were all for the sake of plot, and completely retcon for the story. Hopefully Kishi will stop making her act out-of-character soon.
I completely agree with that.

I have to admit that after re-reading all these chapters I realized something else about Sakura. I think from the very begining she realized that she might of have a hard time killing Sasuke and because of that she has been steeling herself this whole arc so that she would be prepare to kill him when the time came. I also believe that it is because Sakura is a warrior that she knew that she needed to kill Sauke and was willing to do it in the first place.

Realizing that Sasuke needs to be killed and deciding to do it herself is exactly how a warrior should act which is why I was proud of her and admired her. Letting your emotions control you, causing trouble for your sensei (and Hokage), your best friend (Naruto) and making it easy for your enemy to kill you (twice in less than 15 min) is NOT how a warrior should act.

This whole arc Sakura has spent mentally readying her self to kill Sasuke and I am 100% certain that she thought she was capable of killing him without hesitation, because she knew he needed to die and it was her duty to kill him. You may say that because she of her not been emotionally ready to kill Sasuke she shouldn't of done it, but she is a ninja, it is her job to put her emotions aside and do what is nessicary. Her downfall was the she overestimated her ablitiy to keep her emotions at bay, which I don't think she thought would happen, the last quote she said "I really thought I could do it" confirms this to me.

I never said she shouldn't have tried the first time. I see how she was constantly trying to convince herself that she would be able to do it and I can see that she bought that lie herself but that only goes so far.

Like I've told you before, once she hesitated that first time and got saved by Kakashi there's no more room for "I know I can do it!...Oh wait I really can't but I thought I could!" Once that happened it was obvious she couldn't do it so her job is to 1) follow orders: Kakashi telling her to get away 2) Heal Karin: she's a medical ninja and Kakashi did ask her to do it and 3) Stay out of the way so Kakashi can do his job UNLESS Kakashi's about to die and she wants to save him.

You yourself are agreeing with me, if she's a ninja and she's supposed to put her emotions aside and do her job then she's not very good at her job right? So how was it not irresponsible and immature of her to let Sasuke grab her a second time?


Wow. I had written off her stopping as retcon for plot's sake, but this post let me see another level to the arc I had never seen before. I think I've changed my mind. Respond to this, 3littlepigs.

With what I've been saying all along? you too just agreed with me on basically everything. She thought she was ready, tried to convince herself but when the time came she was unable to do it. She's a Kunoichi yet she let her emotions control her, after putting herself in danger and being saved by Kakashi she should have acted like a grown up and a true warrior and not lie to herself anymore. She should have admitted that she's not the person for the job...either that or actually be committed enough and see it through until the end.

All those quotes are again a big summary of the whole arc but still do nothing to prove why she shouldn't be considered useless in battle or emotionally weak.

C4 Karura
02-27-2010, 05:27 PM
Wow, this has over 600 views!

(To all the other people debating: Keep it up! It's interesting. I'm all out of things to debate about, though.)

darkdemonofthemist
02-27-2010, 05:29 PM
Wow, this has over 600 views!

(To all the other people debating: Keep it up! It's interesting. I'm all out of things to debate about, though.)

And to think no one would be debating if it wasn't for you.

SakuraKaulitz221
02-27-2010, 05:29 PM
Totally agree with this! C4, you've really earned rep!

I don't understand why her crying makes her a "Crybaby".. I mean, if any other character cried more than she did, they probably wouldn't be labled as a crybaby. With all the trauma she's been going through, she really deserves a chance to break down and cry! She's kept her emotions bottled up for too freakin long!!

3littlepigs
02-27-2010, 05:32 PM
I was comparing her decision to Naruto's and Hinata's because even though their actions are simular Sakura, yet she is the one who get's the bad rep. Also is both those situation both Hinata and Naruto hesitated at first (Naruto at first didn't go all out with sasuke, and Hinata didn't jump into at fight because the other hyuuga said she would be useless.

My point is that it would be inhuman for anyone to not have any hesitation, especially when trying to kill someone you love. Not to be nasty but I would like to see the people who complain how see acted be put in her shoes

Also I think the point of her not being able to kill Sasuke is suppose to repperesent a comparison between him and her self.
Sasuke= person who has no problem killing someone who cares about him=evil
Sakura= person who can't kill someone who tried to kill her=good.
I don't think most of us are complaining about her hesitating period. Or at least the bigger problem is her putting others in harm's way and not once but twice all because of the same indecision and in record time.

Again...we're not ninjas!! What some of us expect out of a heroine in a ninja series is pretty normal. The whole "how would YOU have acted..?" thing doesn't even apply because their lives and jobs in the series are not like ours in real life.

How about
Sasuke= doesn't act like a human being anymore, he's lost it and gone completely psycho so no good comparing a normal shinobi with him.

Sakura= very selfish person who rarely considers anyone's feeling except her own. Oh and it's not that she couldn't kill someone who tried to kill her, it' s that she couldn't kill him.

Naruto= the good person out of those three, considers other people's feelings, is pretty selfless and lets enemies like Nagato live to make sure someone else's dream become a reality-now that's a good person. ;)

3littlepigs
02-27-2010, 05:35 PM
Totally agree with this! C4, you've really earned rep!

I don't understand why her crying makes her a "Crybaby".. I mean, if any other character cried more than she did, they probably wouldn't be labled as a crybaby. With all the trauma she's been going through, she really deserves a chance to break down and cry! She's kept her emotions bottled up for too freakin long!!
And that was the best time to break down and cry? in front of the enemy? oh and again the main issue is that because of her being emotionally weak both Kakashi and Naruto were in danger. She can cry but if she's going to do it in the battle field then maybe she should consider a change in career?

darkdemonofthemist
02-27-2010, 05:40 PM
I don't understand why her crying makes her a "Crybaby".. I mean, if any other character cried more than she did, they probably wouldn't be labled as a crybaby. With all the trauma she's been going through, she really deserves a chance to break down and cry! She's kept her emotions bottled up for too freakin long!!

What real trauma has she been going through? It's not like her whole clan was slaughtered or she has a jinchuuriki sealed inside her, all she has is a broken heart. She doesn't have to kill Sasuke by herself, killing him with the help of other people wouldn't make her useless, as long as she helped.

Her kind of crying needs to be delt with writing in her diary and eating two gallons of ice cream.

C4 Karura
02-27-2010, 05:44 PM
Sakura= very selfish person who rarely considers anyone's feeling except her own. Oh and it's not that she couldn't kill someone who tried to kill her, it' s that she couldn't kill him.
I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to jump back into this. How has Sakura been selfish, or not thought about others feelings? Also, she hasn't been risking other peoples' lives. She put her team to sleep to make sure they wouldn't be harmed by her.

Both of the times she had to be rescued, she wasn't being reckless with others' lives.

The first time, she didn't want to hurt Karin, and she didn't know that Kakashi was anywhere near her. The only life she was risking was her own, and she was doing so to protect Naruto from having to fight him.

The second time, she wasn't putting Kakashi in danger. She moved in to kill him, becuase she saw her chance to kill Sasuke. She, once again, had no way of knowing that Naruto was close by, and would risk his life to protect her. Once again, the only life she was risking was her own, and she was doing it to protect Kakashi from the chance he might die. Yeah, she faltered, but she wasn't thinking about that when she moved down. She saw a chance to protect everyone else from Sasuke, and she took it.

Wooster
02-27-2010, 05:49 PM
I was comparing her decision to Naruto's and Hinata's because even though their actions are simular Sakura, yet she is the one who get's the bad rep. Also is both those situation both Hinata and Naruto hesitated at first (Naruto at first didn't go all out with sasuke, and Hinata didn't jump into at fight because the other hyuuga said she would be useless.

My point is that it would be inhuman for anyone to not have any hesitation, especially when trying to kill someone you love. Not to be nasty but I would like to see the people who complain how see acted be put in her shoes

Also I think the point of her not being able to kill Sasuke is suppose to repperesent a comparison between him and her self.
Sasuke= person who has no problem killing someone who cares about him=evil
Sakura= person who can't kill someone who tried to kill her=good.

I don't think most of us are complaining about her hesitating period. Or at least the bigger problem is her putting others in harm's way and not once but twice all because of the same indecision and in record time.

Again...we're not ninjas!! What some of us expect out of a heroine in a ninja series is pretty normal. The whole "how would YOU have acted..?" thing doesn't even apply because their lives and jobs in the series are not like ours in real life.

How about
Sasuke= doesn't act like a human being anymore, he's lost it and gone completely psycho so no good comparing a normal shinobi with him.

Sakura= very selfish person who rarely considers anyone's feeling except her own. Oh and it's not that she couldn't kill someone who tried to kill her, it' s that she couldn't kill him.

Naruto= the good person out of those three, considers other people's feelings, is pretty selfless and lets enemies like Nagato live to make sure someone else's dream become a reality-now that's a good person. ;)
Yes, you're back. I was getting exhausted.

I don't think I need to add much here. Except most of us rely on others to make life and death decisions whether police, military or fire fighters. I think we all recognize these individuals are amazing people. If any of these people ignored orders from a commanding officer their butt would be canned. This might be a good thing to do to Sakura. I don't think she is ready to be on the front lines.

And yes Naruto is awesome. Sakura not so much. Sasuke is a total crap head. The end.

3littlepigs
02-27-2010, 05:55 PM
I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to jump back into this. How has Sakura been selfish, or not thought about others feelings? Also, she hasn't been risking other peoples' lives. She put her team to sleep to make sure they wouldn't be harmed by her. Both of the times she had to be rescued, she wasn't being reckless with others' lives. The first time, she didn't want to hurt Karin, and she didn't know that Kakashi was anywhere near her. The only life she was risking was her own, and she was doing so to protect Naruto from having to fight him. The second time, she wasn't putting Kakashi in danger. She moved in to kill him, becuase she saw her chance to kill Sasuke. She, once again, had no way of knowing that Naruto was close by, and would risk his life to protect her. Once again, the only life she was risking was her own, and she was doing it to protect Kakashi from the chance he might die. Yeah, she faltered, but she wasn't thinking about that when she moved down. She saw a chance to protect everyone else from Sasuke, and she took it.
Let's see...
1) Putting a huge burden on Naruto because she failed to keep "Dear Sasuke" in Konoha.
2) Not realizing Naruto's feelings even though they're pretty obvious and she should understand him considering he's her best friend.
3) Suffocating Sasuke with her own obsession when he made it (very) clear that he wasn't interested. Not only that but creating this whole idea of her having a bond with him when he also made it clear they're worlds apart.
4) Coming to a decision with others, committing to that decision and then betraying that agreement. I would say her trying to do everything on her own all of a sudden because Sai told her the truth in the face is proof that she was still acting selfishly. There's a reason why most ninja missions are carried out in teams...using them (Kiba?) and then putting them to sleep was selfish in its own way because they trusted her and as shinobi they were ready to carry out their mission. No one forced them to go and not only that but those three, especially Sai would have been the conviction she lacked in killing Sasuke.

Not really, if Kakashi saved her once and asked her to please get out of the way then isn't it obvious he would try to save her again? So yeah she might not have know Kakashi was about to get there the 1st time but she knew the 2nd time he was fighting Sasuke and that he would want to protect her even if he died in the process. So she might not have know Naruto would get there but Kakashi was already there.

Wooster
02-27-2010, 05:58 PM
What real trauma has she been going through? It's not like her whole clan was slaughtered or she has a jinchuuriki sealed inside her, all she has is a broken heart. She doesn't have to kill Sasuke by herself, killing him with the help of other people wouldn't make her useless, as long as she helped.

Her kind of crying needs to be delt with writing in her diary and eating two gallons of ice cream.
That's Sakura's biggest problem, she refused to rely on others even when Kakashi was right there. She intentionally disobeyed his orders.

As for the crying, I will take your word for it.

3littlepigs
02-27-2010, 05:58 PM
Yes, you're back. I was getting exhausted.

I don't think I need to add much here. Except most of us rely on others to make life and death decisions whether police, military or fire fighters. I think we all recognize these individuals are amazing people. If any of these people ignored orders from a commanding officer their butt would be canned. This might be a good thing to do to Sakura. I don't think she is ready to be on the front lines.

And yes Naruto is awesome. Sakura not so much. Sasuke is a total crap head. The end.
LOL :p What is it just the two of us against them? and yeah I couldn't have said it better. These last chapters prove if that war is ever going to happen she shouldn't be sent to the front lines and especially not against Sasuke. She should be kept in the hospital like when Pain attacked Konoha...she was useful there. :roll:

3littlepigs
02-27-2010, 05:59 PM
What real trauma has she been going through? It's not like her whole clan was slaughtered or she has a jinchuuriki sealed inside her, all she has is a broken heart. She doesn't have to kill Sasuke by herself, killing him with the help of other people wouldn't make her useless, as long as she helped.

Her kind of crying needs to be delt with writing in her diary and eating two gallons of ice cream.
LOL I just want to say that sums it up really well...it's like you're her doctor and diagnosed her problem accurately. ;)

Parak111
02-27-2010, 06:14 PM
Actually, I've never resented her. All she wants is to help. Yes, she cries a lot, true, but she's a girl after all. Everyone can see that she has deep feelings for Sasuke, and all she wants is to be with him. The only thing that irked me was her "Inner Sakura". I never did come to like that, but thankfully, it's gone now.

Wooster
02-27-2010, 06:15 PM
LOL :p What is it just the two of us against them? and yeah I couldn't have said it better. These last chapters prove if that war is ever going to happen she shouldn't be sent to the front lines and especially not against Sasuke. She should be kept in the hospital like when Pain attacked Konoha...she was useful there. :roll:
Well some other back-up has arrived. Mostly I don't care, but somehow I got sucked back into this.

I just feel for Kakashi. He has to deal with Naruto and has to rush to save Sakura's life. Finally, he feels confident she is doing what he told her. Then, when he is at his weakest after the Kamui, Sakura pops up and almost gets kill. It was quite clear how frustrated he was.

3littlepigs
02-27-2010, 06:19 PM
Well some other back-up has arrived. Mostly I don't care, but somehow I got sucked back into this.

I just feel for Kakashi. He has to deal with Naruto and has to rush to save Sakura's life. Finally, he feels confident she is doing what he told her. Then, when he is at his weakest after the Kamui, Sakura pops up and almost gets kill. It was quite clear how frustrated he was.
lol they have a way of doing that...
Yeah, there are times he looks more like a babysitter...thankfully Naruto got there just in time or else he would have been killed.

Wooster
02-27-2010, 06:26 PM
lol they have a way of doing that...
Yeah, there are times he looks more like a babysitter...thankfully Naruto got there just in time or else he would have been killed.
Yes, Naruto saved Kakashi a lot of trouble. Still I can't help but wonder if Kakashi is going to have a little "discussion" with Yamato about how he couldn't keep an eye on Naruto.

Kakashi must be regretting that he let Team 7 pass way back when. Somehow I just imagine him tying them all to a stump, and giving them all a lecture on team work. Of course, this time Sakura and Sasuke don't get any lunch.

3littlepigs
02-27-2010, 06:39 PM
Yes, Naruto saved Kakashi a lot of trouble. Still I can't help but wonder if Kakashi is going to have a little "discussion" with Yamato about how he couldn't keep an eye on Naruto.

Kakashi must be regretting that he let Team 7 pass way back when. Somehow I just imagine him tying them all to a stump, and giving them all a lecture on team work. Of course, this time Sakura and Sasuke don't get any lunch.
Poor Yamato! More than Kakashi having a "discussion" with him I think Yamato himself is going to feel guilty and bothered by whatever comes out of Naruto getting there.

He's probably regretting leaving ANBU to become a sensei.

slyfoxx
02-27-2010, 07:00 PM
I dont hate sakara for not killing the sauce .but she can be more help to the team.i mean dosent her parents, family, and freinds live in the villege. She doesnt have to kill him, a well place punch could have incapacited him. They could have caught him and took him to konoha. But no she started cry in the middle of a battle, left her self open and almost got killed. Its time for her to stay at the hospital shes not fit to be in the battle field. Hang up the ninja headband before u get yourself killed crying in the crossfire.

C4 Karura
02-28-2010, 07:11 AM
Let's see...
1) Putting a huge burden on Naruto because she failed to keep "Dear Sasuke" in Konoha.
Go look at Chapter 474, Page 9, Panels 1-3.
2) Not realizing Naruto's feelings even though they're pretty obvious and she should understand him considering he's her best friend.
Yeah, she's known Naruto likes her all along. It'd be pretty hard for not to.
3) Suffocating Sasuke with her own obsession when he made it (very) clear that he wasn't interested. Not only that but creating this whole idea of her having a bond with him when he also made it clear they're worlds apart.
They went through several expierences where they were almost killed together. Regardless of how "tough guy" someone tries to act, that's going to cause an emotional bond and understanding between the two. Look at the scene where he leaves Konoha. He actually takes the time to listen to her final words to him, and lets her know that he appreciates all she's done for him. Sure, all of that bond has been totally destroyed by this point, but he doesn't about Naruto either, and Naruto's still (until the end of this chapter) thinking he can save the bond, too.
4) Coming to a decision with others, committing to that decision and then betraying that agreement. I would say her trying to do everything on her own all of a sudden because Sai told her the truth in the face is proof that she was still acting selfishly. There's a reason why most ninja missions are carried out in teams...using them (Kiba?) and then putting them to sleep was selfish in its own way because they trusted her and as shinobi they were ready to carry out their mission. No one forced them to go and not only that but those three, especially Sai would have been the conviction she lacked in killing Sasuke.
Can you honestly tell me that Sai, Kiba, Lee, and Sakura had any chance of beating Sasuke in a fight? She may have betrayed thier confidence in her, but in the end, she did what was best for the mission suceeding. (Yeah, they would have the conviction to kill her, but would they have the chance? Sakura got extremely lucky when he let down his guard for a moment.)
Not really, if Kakashi saved her once and asked her to please get out of the way then isn't it obvious he would try to save her again? So yeah she might not have know Kakashi was about to get there the 1st time but she knew the 2nd time he was fighting Sasuke and that he would want to protect her even if he died in the process. So she might not have know Naruto would get there but Kakashi was already there.
Yes, and here's where I pull out the same old case: She saw the brief opportunity to kill Sasuke. She knew that she had the skills to pull it off, and she knew that, being in front of him, Kakashi couldn't do it. It was an automatic fighter's instinct of her to see a weakness and exploit it.

VampireCat
02-28-2010, 07:22 AM
I dont hate sakara for not killing the sauce .but she can be more help to the team.i mean dosent her parents, family, and freinds live in the villege. She doesnt have to kill him, a well place punch could have incapacited him. They could have caught him and took him to konoha. But no she started cry in the middle of a battle, left her self open and almost got killed. Its time for her to stay at the hospital shes not fit to be in the battle field. Hang up the ninja headband before u get yourself killed crying in the crossfire.
She thinks that she have to kill him to save him; because getting him back is only make him much more angrier than before. He has a goal, and I think that Sakura knows that he won't give up -Sasuke said that on ep 51-52, too- and destroy Konoha.
Isn't killing him the best way? :]]

C4 Karura
02-28-2010, 12:38 PM
Yes, she cries a lot, true, but she's a girl after all. Did you just imply that women cry more than men?I dont hate sakara for not killing the sauce .but she can be more help to the team.i mean dosent her parents, family, and freinds live in the villege. She doesnt have to kill him, a well place punch could have incapacited him. They could have caught him and took him to konoha. But no she started cry in the middle of a battle, left her self open and almost got killed. Its time for her to stay at the hospital shes not fit to be in the battle field. Hang up the ninja headband before u get yourself killed crying in the crossfire.
Ok, seriously. What's with all the sexist people on this thread?! For the sake of having a comparison, even if it seems impossible, let's say that Shikamaru decides to desert Konoha and join Akatsuki. Choji is sent on a mission to kill him, as he is now a threat to the village. However, he just can't bring himself to kill Shikamaru when he has the opportunity, and breaks down crying. Yes, he's clearly not capable of handling a task involving his former teammate, but does that have any effect on his ability to do regular missions and fights? No. And yet, somehow, becuase Sakura's a girl, she's too emotional to do any fighting?! Seriously, that post was almost as sexist as what Kishi did in this chapter.

3littlepigs
02-28-2010, 12:46 PM
Go look at Chapter 474, Page 9, Panels 1-3.
I did...what was I supposed to look at? I know once Sai told her she decided to do everything alone, it doesn't change the fact that for 3 yrs she put a huge burden on Naruto's shoulders.

Yeah, she's known Naruto likes her all along. It'd be pretty hard for not to.
Like and Love are different...it's not like say Hinata and Naruto where 1) Hinata is extremely shy and 2) She and Naruto almost never see each other. Sakura and Naruto have been teammates for a long time and they're best friends too so maybe if she hadn't been so focused on herself and her own "problems" (if you can even call them that) she would have noticed how he really felt for her.

They went through several expierences where they were almost killed together. Regardless of how "tough guy" someone tries to act, that's going to cause an emotional bond and understanding between the two. Look at the scene where he leaves Konoha. He actually takes the time to listen to her final words to him, and lets her know that he appreciates all she's done for him. Sure, all of that bond has been totally destroyed by this point, but he doesn't about Naruto either, and Naruto's still (until the end of this chapter) thinking he can save the bond, too.

Ok we have different opinions on that, I'm not saying Sasuke didn't consider her a "friend" or a teammate but that's completely different from a "real" bond. Sakura could never understand Sasuke, he knew that and he told her but because again she was so busy with her own feelings and ideas she ignored that and created the whole idea that she was really close to him. Kakashi was there too on several occasions when they were in trouble so now Sasuke had a "bond" with him because of that? Naruto is different because even Sasuke admitted that they were so similar and they could even understand each other without words.

and Yes, I've see that scene a LOT of times actually more than I want to. At that time all Sasuke wanted to do was leave the village, he didn't want any trouble so he just said that to make her feel better before leaving her unconscious. Same with Naruto, once they met at the Valley Sasuke didn't even want to fight or hurt Naruto it was Naruto who insisted and then Sasuke had the brilliant idea of killing Naruto to get MS.

Can you honestly tell me that Sai, Kiba, Lee, and Sakura had any chance of beating Sasuke in a fight? She may have betrayed thier confidence in her, but in the end, she did what was best for the mission suceeding. (Yeah, they would have the conviction to kill her, but would they have the chance? Sakura got extremely lucky when he let down his guard for a moment.)

Can YOU honestly tell me Sakura had any chance of killing him alone? Please, Sasuke is Kage level...way beyond a chunin or even a regular Jonin. Really she did what was best for the mission? so how come her "mission" ended up being a failure? Either way with or without Kiba, Lee and Sai I don't think they would have won but they would have gotten closer that's for sure especially since Sasuke's weak at the moment 4 against 1 is always better. Not only that but when she hesitated maybe one of the other 3 wouldn't have.

Also, she was only lucky that Kakashi saved her...Sasuke didn't let his guard down at all...he knew right from the start she was lying and he was going to kill her. The second time it might have been a little bit of luck but it was also Kakashi making Sasuke use Susano'o one more time thus getting his vision like that and surprising him. I doubt Sasuke would have activated Susano'o just for Sakura but if he had she would have died immediately.

Yes, and here's where I pull out the same old case: She saw the brief opportunity to kill Sasuke. She knew that she had the skills to pull it off, and she knew that, being in front of him, Kakashi couldn't do it. It was an automatic fighter's instinct of her to see a weakness and exploit it.
She didn't even know Sasuke was going to lose it for a moment because of his vision...she jumped in before that. Also, having the skills to pull it off would include determination to see it through IMO. And Wow her automatic fighter's instinct is so good Sasuke almost killed her twice in record time. :roll:

Wooster
02-28-2010, 01:12 PM
Did you just imply that women cry more than men?
Just girls which are a subset of women. It would be an extrapolation to say this implies all women.;)
Ok, seriously. What's with all the sexist people on this thread?! For the sake of having a comparison, even if it seems impossible, let's say that Shikamaru decides to desert Konoha and join Akatsuki. Choji is sent on a mission to kill him, as he is now a threat to the village. However, he just can't bring himself to kill Shikamaru when he has the opportunity, and breaks down crying. Yes, he's clearly not capable of handling a task involving his former teammate, but does that have any effect on his ability to do regular missions and fights? No. And yet, somehow, becuase Sakura's a girl, she's too emotional to do any fighting?! Seriously, that post was almost as sexist as what Kishi did in this chapter.
Would Choji endanger others and hesitate at the last minute? Probably not, he would leave to others.

Sakura on the other hand has shown she cannot control her emotions AND those emotions cause her to make bad decisions. Not to mention she directly disobeyed an order from Kakashi.

What did Kakashi think about this before Sakura even froze up: " Sakura, what are you doing!? Stay out of this!" If Kakashi thinks you screwed up, you really screwed up.

dillydally
02-28-2010, 02:07 PM
Just girls which are a subset of women. It would be an extrapolation to say this implies all women.;)

Would Choji endanger others and hesitate at the last minute? Probably not, he would leave to others.
Ok first of all this whole she endangered others is a b.s excuse. The first time Kakashi popped out and the first time Naruto popped out she had no control of nor did she even know they were there. When she attacked Sasuke she didn't put Kakashi in danger in I think he would of been in more danger if she didn't distracted Sasuke, since he was weaken from kaumi(sp?) and if Sasuke had attacked Kakashi while he was recovering he would be at a big disadvantage. You may say "Oh but Kakashi could of gotten hurt protecting Sakura" no he wouldn't, Kakashi wouldn't of gotten to Sakura in time to even take the hit for her, in fact it is more likely that he wouldn't get their till Sakura was killed and then he might of got a small window of opportunity to launch a attack before Sasuke got the chance to turn his attention back to Kakashi. So no she didn't endanger anyone, I'm getting really with that pathic excuse to hate on Sakura; this is just like earlier in the arc when it was announce that Sakura was going to go after Sasuke, every one was complaining how she putting sai, lee, and kiba in danger but as we saw she put them asleep she they wouldn't get hurt, yet the same than started complaining because "how dare she betray them"

And yes I have no doubt that Chouji would do the same thing in a heartbeat.

Sakura on the other hand has shown she cannot control her emotions AND those emotions cause her to make bad decisions. Not to mention she directly disobeyed an order from Kakashi.
NO ONE ON THIS SHOW CAN CONTROL THEIR EMOTIONS, JUST LOOK AT NARUTO AND SASUKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sakura is way better at controlling her emotions than either of them and yet she is the only one is who is looked down at because of it!! Big deal she disobeyed and order Naruto just disobeyed Yamoto's and Kakashi's orders when he went after them, yet another example of Sakura doing the same thing as another character yet being the only one to be hated on.

What did Kakashi think about this before Sakura even froze up: " Sakura, what are you doing!? Stay out of this!" If Kakashi thinks you screwed up, you really screwed up.

He said that because he seriously under estimates Sakura he didn't think that she would even be able to sneak up on him and that's why he said that.

Before the 5 kage arc I didn't like Sakura but I warmed up to her during this arc because she has shown us that she has a backbone and is willing to put aside her feelings to do what is right. However after she tried to kill Sasuke she became one of the few people I admired (and I don't usually admire anime character) and ontop of that she became my favorite character for doing what a lot of people hate her for. On the flip side I would of had no respect for her if she just stood by and watched like she did pre-shippuden and I'm she a lot of the same people who hate her for jumping in would also hate her for standing by.
Sakura will be dislike for pity reasons, so I'm going to asked to think for a moment and decide if you angry at Sakura because you think what she did was really wrong and because you already have stigma against her, mainly because she is nothing like Hinata who in the eyes of a lot of men is "the prefect women".


Did you just imply that women cry more than men?
Ok, seriously. What's with all the sexist people on this thread?! For the sake of having a comparison, even if it seems impossible, let's say that Shikamaru decides to desert Konoha and join Akatsuki. Choji is sent on a mission to kill him, as he is now a threat to the village. However, he just can't bring himself to kill Shikamaru when he has the opportunity, and breaks down crying. Yes, he's clearly not capable of handling a task involving his former teammate, but does that have any effect on his ability to do regular missions and fights? No. And yet, somehow, becuase Sakura's a girl, she's too emotional to do any fighting?! Seriously, that post was almost as sexist as what Kishi did in this chapter.

Thank you!!!! excellent post C4, it mean a lot to hear a boy talking about how sexism is wrong.
And Wooster young boys cry as much as young girl, it is only when men get older that they really cry less than normal and that because the society we live in tell men that it wrong and weak for them to cry so their are afraid to cry and look down on people who do, which is really unhealth and has nothing to do with gender. I have a friend who father treat just like her brother when growing up and now she cries less them her brothers (and when I say she cries, I mean I've been bff with her since I was 6 and I have yet to she her cry once)

C4 Karura
02-28-2010, 03:01 PM
I did...what was I supposed to look at? I know once Sai told her she decided to do everything alone, it doesn't change the fact that for 3 yrs she put a huge burden on Naruto's shoulders.
Yeah, but she was the flaky, hateable female character when she did that. The point is, she's changed, and she regrets what she did back then.


Like and Love are different...it's not like say Hinata and Naruto where 1) Hinata is extremely shy and 2) She and Naruto almost never see each other. Sakura and Naruto have been teammates for a long time and they're best friends too so maybe if she hadn't been so focused on herself and her own "problems" (if you can even call them that) she would have noticed how he really felt for her.
Yeah, she's known that he "loves" her since the beginning. He asked her far a date in Chapter 3 (and many times after that), and she's been developing feelings back for him since he went after Sasuke for her.


Ok we have different opinions on that, I'm not saying Sasuke didn't consider her a "friend" or a teammate but that's completely different from a "real" bond. Sakura could never understand Sasuke, he knew that and he told her but because again she was so busy with her own feelings and ideas she ignored that and created the whole idea that she was really close to him. Kakashi was there too on several occasions when they were in trouble so now Sasuke had a "bond" with him because of that? Naruto is different because even Sasuke admitted that they were so similar and they could even understand each other without words.

and Yes, I've see that scene a LOT of times actually more than I want to. At that time all Sasuke wanted to do was leave the village, he didn't want any trouble so he just said that to make her feel better before leaving her unconscious. Same with Naruto, once they met at the Valley Sasuke didn't even want to fight or hurt Naruto it was Naruto who insisted and then Sasuke had the brilliant idea of killing Naruto to get MS.
Ok, I'm officially taking the stand that her stopping just becuase of that one memory is an out-of-character retcon. Don't hate her for Kishi's Sexist Plot no Jutsu.


Can YOU honestly tell me Sakura had any chance of killing him alone? Please, Sasuke is Kage level...way beyond a chunin or even a regular Jonin. Really she did what was best for the mission? so how come her "mission" ended up being a failure? Either way with or without Kiba, Lee and Sai I don't think they would have won but they would have gotten closer that's for sure especially since Sasuke's weak at the moment 4 against 1 is always better. Not only that but when she hesitated maybe one of the other 3 wouldn't have.

Also, she was only lucky that Kakashi saved her...Sasuke didn't let his guard down at all...he knew right from the start she was lying and he was going to kill her. The second time it might have been a little bit of luck but it was also Kakashi making Sasuke use Susano'o one more time thus getting his vision like that and surprising him. I doubt Sasuke would have activated Susano'o just for Sakura but if he had she would have died immediately.
There was no way that they would be able to beat him in a fight. On the other hand, there was at least a chance that she would be able to trick her way onto his team. Then, she could wait until he was asleep or something.

She didn't even know Sasuke was going to lose it for a moment because of his vision...she jumped in before that. Also, having the skills to pull it off would include determination to see it through IMO. And Wow her automatic fighter's instinct is so good Sasuke almost killed her twice in record time. :roll:
What are you talking about? She's shown looking over the side of the bridge. She sees that his Susan'no is quickly falling apart, and he's grasping his eyes in pain. He's pretty clearly focusing on Kakashi, and, given that she's a Chunin who trained under the Hokage for years, I'm gonna say she could tell that he was wide open to an attack from behind. Plus, she saw an opportunity to finish this fight. She didn't know how long it would last. She doesn't have the time to contemplate whether she's going to have a random breakdown at the last possible moment. She has to move in now. (Also, to your last sentence: *cough* plot retcon of her shown abilities *cough*)

C4 Karura
02-28-2010, 03:11 PM
Just girls which are a subset of women. It would be an extrapolation to say this implies all women.;)

Would Choji endanger others and hesitate at the last minute? Probably not, he would leave to others.
I didn't say it was a perfect example. I was just saying that Choji probably wouldn't be able to kill Shikamaru, even if it was the right thing to do.

Sakura on the other hand has shown she cannot control her emotions AND those emotions cause her to make bad decisions. Not to mention she directly disobeyed an order from Kakashi.
That's only becuase this is an assasination with someone directly involved with her. It says nothing about her ability to do normal missions and fights, so stop saying that she's unfit to be a ninja, and should stay in the hospital. (Or maybe that was someone else who said that, but either way it was really annoying.)

What did Kakashi think about this before Sakura even froze up: " Sakura, what are you doing!? Stay out of this!" If Kakashi thinks you screwed up, you really screwed up.
That's becuase he, like most fans, seriously underestimated her skills at sneaking up on someone.

By the way, excellent post, Dillydally!

Kari-Chan
02-28-2010, 03:18 PM
I still don't understand why someone is considered weak for hesitating to kill a childhood friend.
It's not easy to kill someone, and even though I know their ninjas, and ninjas tend to do that, it's harder to kill someone to whom you were close when you were younger.

I feel like someone has said something like that over the course of the series.

C4 Karura
02-28-2010, 03:32 PM
Well put, Kari-chan!

dillydally
02-28-2010, 03:32 PM
I totally disagree that Sakura stopped killing him just because of that one memory, she isn't that shallow. If she did just stop because of one memory Kishi would of only shown one flash back. She stop her self from killing Sasuke because she loved him. By love I do not mean the kind were she expects for any thing to be reciprocated, I mean the kind of love where you care about some one that you don't care if you're are not with that person or if you get anything out of that relationship as long as they are happy so are you. That is the type of feelings Sakura has for Sasuke; she stop her self from killing him because she love him with all her heart not because she had the delusion that they had some sort of 'bond'. It is even stated in the manga when Sai said that Sakura is going to kill Sasuke because she loves him so much that she knew she needn't to kill to save him from a life of evil. For someone not able to someone that they feel this strongly about is not weak it is human, only a monster would be able to put aside such strong feelings.
Which is another reason why Sakura wasn't being over emotional, for her to put aside such strong emotion and actual attempt to kill Sasuke just shows how much emotional control she has not the opposite.
Edit: Kari just said what I've been trying to explain to everyone rep up

Wooster
02-28-2010, 03:42 PM
Thank you!!!! excellent post C4, it mean a lot to hear a boy talking about how sexism is wrong.
And Wooster young boys cry as much as young girl, it is only when men get older that they really cry less than normal and that because the society we live in tell men that it wrong and weak for them to cry so their are afraid to cry and look down on people who do, which is really unhealth and has nothing to do with gender. I have a friend who father treat just like her brother when growing up and now she cries less them her brothers (and when I say she cries, I mean I've been bff with her since I was 6 and I have yet to she her cry once)

I never said the statement was true. I think a scientfic study needs to be in order to prove this one way or the other.

However
Yes, she cries a lot, true, but she's a girl after all.



this statement implies girls cry more does it not? I believe it does. I was just pointing out it says nothing about women. Whether crying is good or not I find irrelevant. Though that depends mostly on how much it is culturally acceptable to express emotions. Or just on the individuals personality. I don't think everyone has to act the same. I certainly act diferent than most people.

Ok first of all this whole she endangered others is a b.s excuse. The first time Kakashi popped out and the first time Naruto popped out she had no control of nor did she even know they were there. When she attacked Sasuke she didn't put Kakashi in danger in I think he would of been in more danger if she didn't distracted Sasuke, since he was weaken from kaumi(sp?) and if Sasuke had attacked Kakashi while he was recovering he would be at a big disadvantage. You may say "Oh but Kakashi could of gotten hurt protecting Sakura" no he wouldn't, Kakashi wouldn't of gotten to Sakura in time to even take the hit for her, in fact it is more likely that he wouldn't get their till Sakura was killed and then he might of got a small window of opportunity to launch a attack before Sasuke got the chance to turn his attention back to Kakashi. So no she didn't endanger anyone, I'm getting really with that pathic excuse to hate on Sakura; this is just like earlier in the arc when it was announce that Sakura was going to go after Sasuke, every one was complaining how she putting sai, lee, and kiba in danger but as we saw she put them asleep she they wouldn't get hurt, yet the same than started complaining because "how dare she betray them"

And yes I have no doubt that Chouji would do the same thing in a heartbeat.



I don't know why you wanted to reply to my response, but I kind of feel obligated to respond to anyone who puts time into making a well reasoned reply to anything I write. So here it goes:

First of all I not going to defend all others who have made unreasonable accusations against Sakura. I will only defend what I think, thus I cut her some slack for the first time she is saved. She was only putting herself in danger. If she wants to commit suicide that's up to her.

However, there is no possible way she helped Kakashi. That's clear from Kakashi's reaction when he first saw her. Kakashi was weakened slightly, but clearly not as much as Sasuke. Kakashi already had a good distance between himself and Sasuke, so he was safe for the time being. He also had his mangekyo sharingan still active, thus I assume he could still use the kamui. Sasuke wasn't attacking anyone he was weakened more by the aborted Susano'o. Kakashi was stubbling toward Sasuke when he was attacking Sakura, which means he very well could have been in trouble when he reached her.

To suggest Sakura didn't put others in danger is to ignore the facts to construct a false premise. If you want to defend Sakura defend what happened, she tried to attack and failed leaving herself wide open to attack and forcing Kakashi to rush toward Sasuke when that clearly wasn't in his battle plan. Naruto was attacked even if it was only a scratch.

I have no problem with Sakura and her former team mates that was a clever plan.

In regard to the Choji, he would probably cry a lot. See no sexism here.:D



NO ONE ON THIS SHOW CAN CONTROL THEIR EMOTIONS, JUST LOOK AT NARUTO AND SASUKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sakura is way better at controlling her emotions than either of them and yet she is the only one is who is looked down at because of it!! Big deal she disobeyed and order Naruto just disobeyed Yamoto's and Kakashi's orders when he went after them, yet another example of Sakura doing the same thing as another character yet being the only one to be hated on.



Comparing Sakura's action to poor decisions of others does not absolve her from her poor decision. What makes hers worse is the hesitation, which I contend should have been patently obvious to her that it would happen. Yes, maybe Sakura controls her emotion better than Sasuke, but Sasuke is an insane lunatic. That's setting the bar really low.

The first difference between Sakura and Naruto is that Naruto disobeyed orders and as a result saved Sakura life. Not to mention he has not deluded himself that he can kill Sasuke. He knows that he can't decide(at least as of yet). I have no problem with Sakura deciding she only must kill Sasuke for the others. Nor would I have a problem with her deciding that she loves Sasuke too much to kill him. I do have a problem with her changing her mind at the worst possible time. When she was attacking Sasuke she was thinking about him, when she should have been thinking about following through with her attack.

Second difference was that Sakura diobeyed an order on the battle field. Kakashi knew Sakura has a hinderance at the time that's why he sent her away.
He said that because he seriously under estimates Sakura he didn't think that she would even be able to sneak up on him and that's why he said that.

Before the 5 kage arc I didn't like Sakura but I warmed up to her during this arc because she has shown us that she has a backbone and is willing to put aside her feelings to do what is right. However after she tried to kill Sasuke she became one of the few people I admired (and I don't usually admire anime character) and ontop of that she became my favorite character for doing what a lot of people hate her for. On the flip side I would of had no respect for her if she just stood by and watched like she did pre-shippuden and I'm she a lot of the same people who hate her for jumping in would also hate her for standing by.
Sakura will be dislike for pity reasons, so I'm going to asked to think for a moment and decide if you angry at Sakura because you think what she did was really wrong and because you already have stigma against her, mainly because she is nothing like Hinata who in the eyes of a lot of men is "the prefect women".




l think the results show Kakashi was right. She got behind Sasuke because he is nearly blind and shocked by this fact. That's not to say if she did follow through she wouldn't have killed him. If that happened I would have praised her.

I don't know if this is response to me, but I think you know very well I don't hate Sakura and mildly like her. If Sakura attacked Sasuke and failed because he was too good, I wouldn't really have too much problem with her. I really think her plan to find Sasuke was brilliant. That the end result of her plan was to kill Sasuke disappointing. I thought it was quite obvious that she couldn't kill Sasuke, so I was really suprised that she wanted to kill him. In turns out I was right that she couldn't kill him. Again, I have no problem with that, I just think she should have know that.

Hinata's a goof I'll give you that, and she is certainly not anything what I would call a perfect woman. Though her one moment to shine came out a lot better than what Sakura just did. That's not to say Sakura hasn't proven her worth at other times and may again later.

Wooster
02-28-2010, 03:58 PM
I didn't say it was a perfect example. I was just saying that Choji probably wouldn't be able to kill Shikamaru, even if it was the right thing to do.


And I would have no problem if he couldn't kill Shikamaru. Just like I have no problem with Naruto. Just like I would have problem with Sakura if that was her decision, but it wasn't was it?

That's only becuase this is an assasination with someone directly involved with her. It says nothing about her ability to do normal missions and fights, so stop saying that she's unfit to be a ninja, and should stay in the hospital. (Or maybe that was someone else who said that, but either way it was really annoying.

True, but one bad decision in the battle field can have serious consequences. Just because it's special case doesn't mean she couldn't be removed from combat duty. In otherwords, the reason doesn't matter the results do.

I don't think I said she's unfit to be a ninja, but I may have said she should have been canned like a real military would. Of course, Nartuo would have been discharged a hundred times by now.


That's becuase he, like most fans, seriously underestimated her skills at sneaking up on someone.

By the way, excellent post, Dillydally!

Wait did you just compare Kakashi to Naruto fans? Dem's fighting words!`!:)

Kakashi is right. Do not doubt Kakashi. Besides what happened in the end?

Yes her post was good. But why is it only me that she does this to?`~( See look I'm crying (not really).

C4 Karura
02-28-2010, 04:25 PM
Comparing Sakura's action to poor decisions of others does not absolve her from her poor decision. What makes hers worse is the hesitation, which I contend should have been patently obvious to her that it would happen.
Here's the new case I thought of: Not only is her stopping out-of-character, it's also incredibly unrealistic. When she runs down what must be at least 100 feet of bridge side, hurries along the underside of a bridge, and then drops 15 feet to the water below her, she's going to be so pumped with adrenaline, she's wouldn't able to focus on anything other than her goal, to stab Sasuke. She's not going to suddenly reminisce about old memories in the middle of that. Everyone blames Sakura for not thinking about whether she could do it beforehand, but you can't really blame her, given how ridiculous the idea is that she would suddenly rethink things in the heat of battle. If she had thought, before she jumped off the bridge, "Wait, what if I suddenly start thinking about old memories the second before I stab him, endangering me and Kakashi?", she would have immeaditely disregarded it as impossible. It's just not something that happens. You can't blame her for not thinking it would.

Yes, maybe Sakura controls her emotion better than Sasuke, but Sasuke is an insane lunatic. That's setting the bar really low.
This line made me laugh. :D Actually, a lot of your lines made me laugh, but I didn't want to quote all of then.

The first difference between Sakura and Naruto is that Naruto disobeyed orders and as a result saved Sakura life. Not to mention he has not deluded himself that he can kill Sasuke. He knows that he can't decide(at least as of yet). I have no problem with Sakura deciding she only must kill Sasuke for the others. Nor would I have a problem with her deciding that she loves Sasuke too much to kill him. I do have a problem with her changing her mind at the worst possible time. When she was attacking Sasuke she was thinking about him, when she should have been thinking about following through with her attack.

Second difference was that Sakura diobeyed an order on the battle field. Kakashi knew Sakura has a hinderance at the time that's why he sent her away.
When Naruto disobeyed Kakashi, it's becuase he knew better than him. When Sakura disobeyed Kakashi, it's becuase she knew better than him. He sent her away becuase Karin, thier source of Akatsuki information, was nearly dead, and needed immeadite care. He also knew Sakura was useless in a head-to-head fight with Sasuke. However, after she had healed Karin, she saw a genuine chance to assasinate Sasuke and help Kakashi, and she took it. The circumstances were different than what he was worried about. If she had killed Sasuke, which is what would have realistically happened (due to the ardeneline), he would have been mad she disobeyed orders, but he also would have been proud of her.



l think the results show Kakashi was right. She got behind Sasuke because he is nearly blind and shocked by this fact. That's not to say if she did follow through she wouldn't have killed him. If that happened I would have praised her.
Once again, what would have realistically happened, and Sakura knew that when she headed down.
Hey, Wooster!

C4 Karura
02-28-2010, 04:28 PM
And I would have no problem if he couldn't kill Shikamaru. Just like I have no problem with Naruto. Just like I would have problem with Sakura if that was her decision, but it wasn't was it?



True, but one bad decision in the battle field can have serious consequences. Just because it's special case doesn't mean she couldn't be removed from combat duty. In otherwords, the reason doesn't matter the results do.

I don't think I said she's unfit to be a ninja, but I may have said she should have been canned like a real military would. Of course, Nartuo would have been discharged a hundred times by now.



Wait did you just compare Kakashi to Naruto fans? Dem's fighting words!`!:)

Kakashi is right. Do not doubt Kakashi. Besides what happened in the end?

Yes her post was good. But why is it only me that she does this to?`~( See look I'm crying (not really).
The new smilies are fun, aren't they! `:D

Sasuke
02-28-2010, 04:48 PM
I'm not saying Sakura deserved it, but Sakura should have been killed twice, but because of Plot No Jutsu, Kakashi, and Naruto made it in time. But you do bring up good points about Sakura's mental traumaand why she couldn't bring herself to kill Sasuke.

Wooster
02-28-2010, 04:58 PM
Hey, Wooster!

Hey,Hey,Hey! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WT-fxBNKs8#t=09s)

Here's the new case I thought of: Not only is her stopping out-of-character, it's also incredibly unrealistic. When she runs down what must be at least 100 feet of bridge side, hurries along the underside of a bridge, and then drops 15 feet to the water below her, she's going to be so pumped with adrenaline, she's wouldn't able to focus on anything other than her goal, to stab Sasuke. She's not going to suddenly reminisce about old memories in the middle of that. Everyone blames Sakura for not thinking about whether she could do it beforehand, but you can't really blame her, given how ridiculous the idea is that she would suddenly rethink things in the heat of battle. If she had thought, before she jumped off the bridge, "Wait, what if I suddenly start thinking about old memories the second before I stab him, endangering me and Kakashi?", she would have immeaditely disregarded it as impossible. It's just not something that happens. You can't blame her for not thinking it would.

Well lot's things aren't realistic in Naruto. But your mention of adrenaline is interesting. If she really put enough force into stabbing Sasuke. There's no way she could stop an inch away from him. Either she stabbed him or she didn't. Stopping mid-stoke is really impossible.

When Naruto disobeyed Kakashi, it's becuase he knew better than him. When Sakura disobeyed Kakashi, it's becuase she knew better than him. He sent her away becuase Karin, thier source of Akatsuki information, was nearly dead, and needed immeadite care. He also knew Sakura was useless in a head-to-head fight with Sasuke. However, after she had healed Karin, she saw a genuine chance to assasinate Sasuke and help Kakashi, and she took it. The circumstances were different than what he was worried about. If she had killed Sasuke, which is what would have realistically happened (due to the ardeneline), he would have been mad she disobeyed orders, but he also would have been proud of her.


Maybe, but Kakashi's reaction was of shocked terror when he saw her appear. That was well before she froze. He assumed she would fail, and he was right. I don't know if he would be proud of her, remember Kakashi was still trying to save Sasuke. He might not really have wanted him to die. Sakura's action certainly meant one was about to die there.

You're right about Naruto, but you have to admit there would be no problem if both Sakura and Naruto listened to him in the first place. In otherwords, Kakashi is always right.`!:)

The new smilies are fun, aren't they! `:D

Yes, Yes they are.

Anbu_Black_Op
02-28-2010, 05:06 PM
i was mad at Sakura when she didnt kill Sasuke (since i really hate him) xD (yes i did read your speech thing c4

C4 Karura
02-28-2010, 05:12 PM
Well lot's things aren't realistic in Naruto. But your mention of adrenaline is interesting. If she really put enough force into stabbing Sasuke. There's no way she could stop an inch away from him. Either she stabbed him or she didn't. Stopping mid-stoke is really impossible.
Ooh, the "mid-stab" is another good point.


Maybe, but Kakashi's reaction was of shocked terror when he saw her appear. That was well before she froze. He assumed she would fail, and he was right. I don't know if he would be proud of her, remember Kakashi was still trying to save Sasuke. He might not really have wanted him to die. Sakura's action certainly meant one was about to die there.

You're right about Naruto, but you have to admit there would be no problem if both Sakura and Naruto listened to him in the first place. In other words, Kakashi is always right.`!:)

Well, there is the possiblity that he could've died in his fight with Sasuke. Sakura knows what she's doing when she disregards his orders. She knows she can do it, and she knows that this is her only chance to do so. Now, if only KISHI WEREN'T SO SEXIST, SAKURA WOULD BE A HERO, AND SASUKE WOULD BE DEAD!!! Grrrr... `#(

Wooster
02-28-2010, 05:17 PM
Well, there is the possiblity that he could've died in his fight with Sasuke. Sakura knows what she's doing when she disregards his orders. She knows she can do it, and she knows that this is her only chance to do so. Now, if only KISHI WEREN'T SO SEXIST, SAKURA WOULD BE A HERO, AND SASUKE WOULD BE DEAD!!! Grrrr... `#(
I'll never believe Kishimoto is sexist. Didn't he create Sakura the character you like so much? Not to mention Temari, the Mizukage, Tsunade, and the one that really blows a hole in that accusation, Chiyo.

C4 Karura
02-28-2010, 05:21 PM
I'll never believe Kishimoto is sexist. Didn't he create Sakura the character you like so much? Not to mention Temari, the Mizukage, Tsunade, and the one that really blows a hole in that accusation, Chiyo.
Fine, Kishi isn't sexist. He's just an unbelievable Naruto and Sasuke fanboy, who refuses to let let them lose to anyone but each other.

Wherner
02-28-2010, 05:35 PM
Well, there is the possiblity that he could've died in his fight with Sasuke. Sakura knows what she's doing when she disregards his orders. She knows she can do it, and she knows that this is her only chance to do so. Now, if only KISHI WEREN'T SO SEXIST, SAKURA WOULD BE A HERO, AND SASUKE WOULD BE DEAD!!! Grrrr... `#(
Don't forget the part before Shippuuden when Naruto, Kiba, Neji, Choji and Shikamaru chased after Sasuke. They didn't allow Sakura to come with them. I've lost respect for him for adding those kind of stuff to the plot.

He should of at least let Sakura stab the kunai knife in his back, or punch Sasuke in the face flying him 50 meters across land screaming "BAKA!". It would bring the manga a comedy scene. /Shakes head

3littlepigs
02-28-2010, 05:40 PM
Yeah, but she was the flaky, hateable female character when she did that. The point is, she's changed, and she regrets what she did back then.
She still hasn't changed...she's trying to change but so far nothing. Also, regretting is one thing but if she continues acting recklessly and selfishly after realizing past mistakes and regretting them then what's the point?

Yeah, she's known that he "loves" her since the beginning. He asked her far a date in Chapter 3 (and many times after that), and she's been developing feelings back for him since he went after Sasuke for her.
Asking someone on a date does not mean you love them...or at least I would hope you don't honestly believe that. She appreciates him more but that's also because she saw how hard he tried to bring Sasuke back and because when she needed someone to give her hope that Sasuke could be saved Naruto was there. It's almost like Kakashi in a way, he didn't really pay attention to Naruto until Sasuke was gone...Sakura too.

Ok, I'm officially taking the stand that her stopping just becuase of that one memory is an out-of-character retcon. Don't hate her for Kishi's Sexist Plot no Jutsu.
Ok then fine keep that stand...like I said I'm judging her either way...that's how the character was done (sadly) so that's what I'm judging.

There was no way that they would be able to beat him in a fight. On the other hand, there was at least a chance that she would be able to trick her way onto his team. Then, she could wait until he was asleep or something.
Yeah I know that, that's why I said the result would have been the same with all of them or just Sakura but that's not because they're not useful it's because Sasuke's Kage level and they're all chunin. There was no chance that she could have infiltrated his team...I think we all knew that and it was confirmed since Sasuke only waited for her to turn her back to him to try and kill her.

What are you talking about? She's shown looking over the side of the bridge. She sees that his Susan'no is quickly falling apart, and he's grasping his eyes in pain. He's pretty clearly focusing on Kakashi, and, given that she's a Chunin who trained under the Hokage for years, I'm gonna say she could tell that he was wide open to an attack from behind. Plus, she saw an opportunity to finish this fight. She didn't know how long it would last. She doesn't have the time to contemplate whether she's going to have a random breakdown at the last possible moment. She has to move in now. (Also, to your last sentence: *cough* plot retcon of her shown abilities *cough*)
Sakura doesn't even know what a Susano'o is! and she was busy healing Karin when Sasuke used it on Kakashi. My point exactly! what kind of a shinobi (one who trained under a Hokage if I might add) doesn't think before she acts and disobeys orders from a superior purely for personal reasons? Oh and she never knows how she'll react to anything! she wasn't the right one to try and kill Sasuke but she's too proud to admit that to herself. She should learn a thing or two from Naruto about being honest with yourself...maybe then she could exploit her hidden potential as a Kunoichi?

Wherner
02-28-2010, 05:53 PM
Sakura doesn't even know what a Susano'o is! and she was busy healing Karin when Sasuke used it on Kakashi. My point exactly! what kind of a shinobi (one who trained under a Hokage if I might add) doesn't think before she acts and disobeys orders from a superior purely for personal reasons? Oh and she never knows how she'll react to anything! she wasn't the right one to try and kill Sasuke but she's too proud to admit that to herself. She should learn a thing or two from Naruto about being honest with yourself...maybe then she could exploit her hidden potential as a Kunoichi?
Blame the author, not the character. This is exactly why he is being a sexist. He is doing all these things to Sakura. By doing this, he is hiding the fact of what Sasuke is doing because he's putting the spotlight on Sakura. `#(

3littlepigs
02-28-2010, 06:03 PM
Blame the author, not the character. This is exactly why he is being a sexist. He is doing all these things to Sakura. By doing this, he is hiding the fact of what Sasuke is doing because he's putting the spotlight on Sakura. `#(
Hiding the fact of what Sasuke's doing? I have no idea what you mean...isn't he a complete psycho by now who doesn't mind killing even innocent people just to get "revenge" on the world for how terrible his life turned out?

I don't think Kishi's a sexist but he did say from the very beginning he had no idea how to create a good heroine for his story. He wasn't even sure what kind of rival he had to create for Naruto. All he knew was that he got inspired by Goku from Dragon Ball and based Naruto on that. Also if he was sexist then neither the 5th Hokage or current Mizukage would be women.

Yemen Satoshi
02-28-2010, 06:05 PM
Man, this is actually a pretty good argument.

Yemen Satoshi
02-28-2010, 06:08 PM
I'll never believe Kishimoto is sexist. Didn't he create Sakura the character you like so much? Not to mention Temari, the Mizukage, Tsunade, and the one that really blows a hole in that accusation, Chiyo.


Or, you know, Hinata the thumb twiddler. She's been there for a while, and EVEN had her confess to Naruto which, you'd know if you read other manga (not calling anybody ignorant), is a huge thing if somebody confesses their love to someone.

Wooster
02-28-2010, 06:15 PM
Or, you know, Hinata the thumb twiddler. She's been there for a while, and EVEN had her confess to Naruto which, you'd know if you read other manga (not calling anybody ignorant), is a huge thing if somebody confesses their love to someone.
You mean Kishimoto has created girls and women with a range of characteristics and personalities. That sounds like real women, thus proving my point.

But you're right I'm ignorant with respect to manga. I don't read much else.
Woah I just had a Kurenai moment.

Wherner
02-28-2010, 06:19 PM
Hiding the fact of what Sasuke's doing? I have no idea what you mean...isn't he a complete psycho by now who doesn't mind killing even innocent people just to get "revenge" on the world for how terrible his life turned out?

I don't think Kishi's a sexist but he did say from the very beginning he had no idea how to create a good heroine for his story. He wasn't even sure what kind of rival he had to create for Naruto. All he knew was that he got inspired by Goku from Dragon Ball and based Naruto on that. Also if he was sexist then neither the 5th Hokage or current Mizukage would be women.

More people are complaining about Sakura rather than complaining about Sasuke. It's on anime boards and manga sites all around. Hardly anyone is talking about Sasuke. For example: "Sasuke is a villan, its how he's supposed to be."

Can he really make up for what he did to Sakura and what he made Sasuke do to Karin?

3littlepigs
02-28-2010, 06:23 PM
More people are complaining about Sakura rather than complaining about Sasuke. It's on anime boards and manga sites all around. Hardly anyone is talking about Sasuke. For example: "Sasuke is a villan, its how he's supposed to be."

Can he really make up for what he did to Sakura and what he made Sasuke do to Karin?
Because those of us who complain about Sasuke on a regular basis need a break every once in a while! besides Sakura messed things up even worse than Sasuke normally does.

I'm sure Sasuke lovers would never criticize him anyway and are using Sakura's stupidity as a chance to get all negative attention away from Sasuke but believe me that's not how it is with me. I can actually complain and dislike both of them at the same time :D...only Sakura's actions had more effect than Sasuke's during this past two chapters IMO.

Who? Kishi? Well he doesn't need to make up for anything...he's the author he can do whatever he wants with the story. Even if it pisses some people off...and what did he do to Sakura anyway?

Wherner
02-28-2010, 06:26 PM
Or, you know, Hinata the thumb twiddler. She's been there for a while, and EVEN had her confess to Naruto which, you'd know if you read other manga (not calling anybody ignorant), is a huge thing if somebody confesses their love to someone.
The result: She gets seriously injured from Pain. It made all of her confessing look embarrasing and lame.

3littlepigs
02-28-2010, 06:36 PM
The result: She gets seriously injured from Pain. It made all of her confessing look embarrasing and lame.
Really? I didn't think so...I thought her confession was so full of love and honesty. She truly loves Naruto and it's a very selfless love IMO. I was only disappointed that Kishi didn't take the time to show Naruto at least thanking her for trying to save him or at least address her feelings for him.

C4 Karura
02-28-2010, 06:39 PM
Sakura doesn't even know what a Susano'o is! and she was busy healing Karin when Sasuke used it on Kakashi. My point exactly! what kind of a shinobi (one who trained under a Hokage if I might add) doesn't think before she acts and disobeys orders from a superior purely for personal reasons? Oh and she never knows how she'll react to anything! she wasn't the right one to try and kill Sasuke but she's too proud to admit that to herself. She should learn a thing or two from Naruto about being honest with yourself...maybe then she could exploit her hidden potential as a Kunoichi?
Ok, we seem to still be making the same cases for the same things, but here's what I said to Wooster, that makes all the other cases irrelevent:

Here's the new case I thought of: Not only is her stopping out-of-character, it's also incredibly unrealistic. When she runs down what must be at least 100 feet of bridge side, hurries along the underside of a bridge, and then drops 15 feet to the water below her, she's going to be so pumped with adrenaline, she's wouldn't able to focus on anything other than her goal, to stab Sasuke. She's not going to suddenly reminisce about old memories in the middle of that. Everyone blames Sakura for not thinking about whether she could do it beforehand, but you can't really blame her, given how ridiculous the idea is that she would suddenly rethink things in the heat of battle. If she had thought, before she jumped off the bridge, "Wait, what if I suddenly start thinking about old memories the second before I stab him, endangering me and Kakashi?", she would have immeaditely disregarded it as impossible. It's just not something that happens. You can't blame her for not thinking it would.


When Naruto disobeyed Kakashi, it's becuase he knew better than him. When Sakura disobeyed Kakashi, it's becuase she knew better than him. He sent her away becuase Karin, thier source of Akatsuki information, was nearly dead, and needed immeadite care. He also knew Sakura was useless in a head-to-head fight with Sasuke. However, after she had healed Karin, she saw a genuine chance to assasinate Sasuke and help Kakashi, and she took it. The circumstances were different than what he was worried about. If she had killed Sasuke, which is what would have realistically happened (due to the ardeneline), he would have been mad she disobeyed orders, but he also would have been proud of her.


Please read the entire debate between me and Wooster, as we already covered most of the things you're probably thinking of.

Wherner
02-28-2010, 06:40 PM
Really? I didn't think so...I thought her confession was so full of love and honesty. She truly loves Naruto and it's a very selfless love IMO. I was only disappointed that Kishi didn't take the time to show Naruto at least thanking her for trying to save him or at least address her feelings for him.
He made the whole thing look pointless. Even though she said all of that, she just gets knocked out. He could of at least given her a chance to damage him at least a little. She got pushed back just like how a strong current can easily push around a little child.

Because those of us who complain about Sasuke on a regular basis need a break every once in a while! besides Sakura messed things up even worse than Sasuke normally does.

I'm sure Sasuke lovers would never criticize him anyway and are using Sakura's stupidity as a chance to get all negative attention away from Sasuke but believe me that's not how it is with me. I can actually complain and dislike both of them at the same time :D...only Sakura's actions had more effect than Sasuke's during this past two chapters IMO.

Who? Kishi? Well he doesn't need to make up for anything...he's the author he can do whatever he wants with the story. Even if it pisses some people off...and what did he do to Sakura anyway?
So your saying that Sakura not being able to kill sasuke/lying to Naruto/putting people to sleep so she can try to kill Sasuke herself is worse than Sasuke trying to kill Karin/attempting to kill Sakura and all the other stuff Sasuke has done in the much previous chapters?

Your right, he can do whatever he wants. But whatever he does it can affect his viewers. To Sakura, he made people dislike her because of what she did in the previous chapters. It's the author that makes the character do things, not the character.

3littlepigs
02-28-2010, 06:54 PM
Ok, we seem to still be making the same cases for the same things, but here's what I said to Wooster, that makes all the other cases irrelevent:

Here's the new case I thought of: Not only is her stopping out-of-character, it's also incredibly unrealistic. When she runs down what must be at least 100 feet of bridge side, hurries along the underside of a bridge, and then drops 15 feet to the water below her, she's going to be so pumped with adrenaline, she's wouldn't able to focus on anything other than her goal, to stab Sasuke. She's not going to suddenly reminisce about old memories in the middle of that. Everyone blames Sakura for not thinking about whether she could do it beforehand, but you can't really blame her, given how ridiculous the idea is that she would suddenly rethink things in the heat of battle. If she had thought, before she jumped off the bridge, "Wait, what if I suddenly start thinking about old memories the second before I stab him, endangering me and Kakashi?", she would have immeaditely disregarded it as impossible. It's just not something that happens. You can't blame her for not thinking it would.
This is a manga...and even by Kishi's own standards and his own info unrealistic things happen all the time. I'm used to it by now as it happens with most Sasuke fights.

When Naruto disobeyed Kakashi, it's becuase he knew better than him. When Sakura disobeyed Kakashi, it's becuase she knew better than him. He sent her away becuase Karin, thier source of Akatsuki information, was nearly dead, and needed immeadite care. He also knew Sakura was useless in a head-to-head fight with Sasuke. However, after she had healed Karin, she saw a genuine chance to assasinate Sasuke and help Kakashi, and she took it. The circumstances were different than what he was worried about. If she had killed Sasuke, which is what would have realistically happened (due to the ardeneline), he would have been mad she disobeyed orders, but he also would have been proud of her.

Oh no...there are times when Naruto didn't know better and he messed up. Same goes for Sakura and this time was one of them...it's almost exactly like the first time they met up with Sasuke in Part II and she was careless and Yamato got hurt trying to protect her. If she had killed him then all of this argument would be pointless and we wouldn't even be debating this.
Please read the entire debate between me and Wooster, as we already covered most of the things you're probably thinking of.
Actually I'm too lazy to read all of that..`:)
He made the whole thing look pointless. Even though she said all of that, she just gets knocked out. He could of at least given her a chance to damage him at least a little. She got pushed back just like how a strong current can easily push around a little child.

So your saying that Sakura not being able to kill sasuke/lying to Naruto/putting people to sleep so she can try to kill Sasuke herself is worse than Sasuke trying to kill Karin/attempting to kill Sakura and all the other stuff Sasuke has done in the much previous chapters?

Your right, he can do whatever he wants. But whatever he does it can affect his viewers. To Sakura, he made people dislike her because of what she did in the previous chapters. It's the author that makes the character do things, not the character.

She did go up against Pain, leader of Akatsuki (well the official leader anyway) and user of the Rinnengan. You do realize that right? it's not like she was trying to protect Naruto from a normal shinobi. I was just surprised that she had the guts to attack and didn't hesitate even if she knew it probably wouldn't work. Not only that but she did save Naruto...seeing her get hurt was the reason Naruto went up to 8 tails.

I'm shocked you're defending Sakura even when a weak Sasuke almost killed her so easily but you criticize Hinata for going up against an Akatsuki. At least Shikamaru and Hinata were loyal enough to Naruto (Shikamaru wanted to intervene and Hinata actually did)...maybe you should use the "strong current" metaphor for Sakura.

No, I'm not. As someone who really dislikes Sasuke and continously criticizes his actions I wouldn't do that. I'm saying people like me are not so easily "shocked" or "surprised" by Sasuke's craziness and stupidity anymore. But we don't see Sakura failing this miserably or putting important and loved characters in danger (Kakashi and Naruto) that often.

It's obvious as readers we can criticize him but that includes criticizing his characters as well just like plot etc. In this case Kishi doesn't seem to like Sakura very much...too bad so we shouldn't judge any characters in the series because they don't make the decisions on their own? that's ridiculous...

Wherner
02-28-2010, 07:09 PM
Actually I'm too lazy to read all of that..`:)

She did go up against Pain, leader of Akatsuki (well the official leader anyway) and user of the Rinnengan. You do realize that right? it's not like she was trying to protect Naruto from a normal shinobi. I was just surprised that she had the guts to attack and didn't hesitate even if she knew it probably wouldn't work. Not only that but she did save Naruto...seeing her get hurt was the reason Naruto went up to 8 tails.

I'm shocked you're defending Sakura even when a weak Sasuke almost killed her so easily but you criticize Hinata for going up against an Akatsuki. At least Shikamaru and Hinata were loyal enough to Naruto (Shikamaru wanted to intervene and Hinata actually did)...maybe you should use the "strong current" metaphor for Sakura.

No, I'm not. As someone who really dislikes Sasuke and continously criticizes his actions I wouldn't do that. I'm saying people like me are not so easily "shocked" or "surprised" by Sasuke's craziness and stupidity anymore. But we don't see Sakura failing this miserably or putting important and loved characters in danger (Kakashi and Naruto) that often.

It's obvious as readers we can criticize him but that includes criticizing his characters as well just like plot etc. In this case Kishi doesn't seem to like Sakura very much...too bad so we shouldn't judge any characters in the series because they don't make the decisions on their own? that's ridiculous...

No, it's not ridiculous. Kishi himself is making the characters act. You said earlier that Kishi can do whatever he want. That's what he's doing right now. Kishi should stop being lazy and make Sakura do at least something. It's getting irritating at how lazy he's been getting. He only makes about 10-20 pages per chapter nowadays even with all of his assistants.

I'm not criticizing Hinata. I'm stating that Kishi made a weak choice to not at least have Hinata punch or even touch Pain before getting injured, and it seemed pointless because she couldn't even hit Pain.

Naruto could have easily turned into his demon form without Hinata. I don't see why he didn't do so earlier.

3littlepigs
02-28-2010, 07:26 PM
No, it's not ridiculous. Kishi himself is making the characters act. You said earlier that Kishi can do whatever he want. That's what he's doing right now. Kishi should stop being lazy and make Sakura do at least something. It's getting irritating at how lazy he's been getting. He only makes about 10-20 pages per chapter nowadays even with all of his assistants.

I'm not criticizing Hinata. I'm stating that Kishi made a weak choice to not at least have Hinata punch or even touch Pain before getting injured, and it seemed pointless because she couldn't even hit Pain.

Naruto could have easily turned into his demon form without Hinata. I don't see why he didn't do so earlier.
Exactly, he's the author so for whatever reason he's not making Sakura act more like a true warrior. Readers can still criticize her, some love her some hate her it's the same for all the characters not just Sakura. Most people who were complaining about Sakura this week did so when discussing the latest chapter.

10-20 pages is normal for a weekly manga...didn't you know that? Even if he has assistants and more money now he's only hired to draw that-less than 20 pages every week. I actually prefer that and not over 50 pages but only once a month like Fullmetal Alchemist.

No, Naruto wasn't going to use the fox's chakra because unlike other enemies, Pain actually attacked him mentally and emotionally. Internally Naruto was completely messed up at that point, Pain would have taken him prisoner if it weren't because Hinata got hurt and acted as a trigger for Naruto's anger.

Wherner
02-28-2010, 08:08 PM
Exactly, he's the author so for whatever reason he's not making Sakura act more like a true warrior. Readers can still criticize her, some love her some hate her it's the same for all the characters not just Sakura. Most people who were complaining about Sakura this week did so when discussing the latest chapter.

10-20 pages is normal for a weekly manga...didn't you know that? Even if he has assistants and more money now he's only hired to draw that-less than 20 pages every week. I actually prefer that and not over 50 pages but only once a month like Fullmetal Alchemist.

No, Naruto wasn't going to use the fox's chakra because unlike other enemies, Pain actually attacked him mentally and emotionally. Internally Naruto was completely messed up at that point, Pain would have taken him prisoner if it weren't because Hinata got hurt and acted as a trigger for Naruto's anger.

But not as much for Sasuke. Sasuke did much worse than Sakura, as I bring this up again.

Theres about four weeks in a month. So theres been around 18 pages in a Naruto chapter recently. 4x20 = 80 pages Kishi makes roughly around in a month. The author of FMA makes only around 50 pages of FMA roughly around in a month. Only 30 pages off, but: Fullmetal Alchemist is already finished in it's anime and FMA isn't as popular as Naruto. She has created various of other mangas while working on FMA.

He was already angry with Pain with almost completely destroying his village. Why didn't he go with his demon form then? During a fight with Neji, Naruto was badly injured and out of chakra and emotionally put down because of Neji saying "Your a failure" and all that other phrases Neji kept repeating. Naruto managed to turn into his demon fox during that time. Naruto actually got Hinata hurt, because he didn't even try to go into his demon form and could of brought it upon himself to become a prisoner. Hinata had to go in there and say all that stuff about loving him, only to have a embarrasing and unnessacary scene to get herself blown away and badly hurt.

dillydally
02-28-2010, 08:20 PM
I think we all can agree that Sakura didn't kill Sasuke, because Kishi wouldn't allow anyone other than Naruto to kill him

3littlepigs
02-28-2010, 08:32 PM
But not as much for Sasuke. Sasuke did much worse than Sakura, as I bring this up again.

Theres about four weeks in a month. So theres been around 18 pages in a Naruto chapter recently. 4x20 = 80 pages Kishi makes roughly around in a month. The author of FMA makes only around 50 pages of FMA roughly around in a month. Only 30 pages off, but: Fullmetal Alchemist is already finished in it's anime and FMA isn't as popular as Naruto. She has created various of other mangas while working on FMA.

He was already angry with Pain with almost completely destroying his village. Why didn't he go with his demon form then? During a fight with Neji, Naruto was badly injured and out of chakra and emotionally put down because of Neji saying "Your a failure" and all that other phrases Neji kept repeating. Naruto managed to turn into his demon fox during that time. Naruto actually got Hinata hurt, because he didn't even try to go into his demon form and could of brought it upon himself to become a prisoner. Hinata had to go in there and say all that stuff about loving him, only to have a embarrasing and unnessacary scene to get herself blown away and badly hurt.


I agree with you, that's what I've been saying...but I guess most of us are getting used to Sasuke doing those sorts of things and messing things up but Sakura doesn't get the chance that often so yeah obviously right now everyone is commenting on her actions.

Fullmetal Alchemist isn't done...neither the manga nor the Anime it's actually just getting good. Also, I merely used it as an example to say I prefer less pages more often than more pages but to have to wait longer especially when there's a good cliffhanger!

You're right Fullmetal isn't Naruto but it's extremely popular. If it wasn't they wouldn't have made an anime series, a movie and years after it was done start on another Anime.

See the thing is, during the fight with Neji, Naruto only needed more chakra to prove his point. All he needed was to defeat Neji anyway possible and prove to him once and for all that not everything is set in stone.

Pain on the other hand didn't use the same approach as Neji or Gaara. He didn't say "you're unable to beat me so that proves you're wrong!" If it had been just that I'm sure Naruto wouldn't have hesitated to go in to tails mode. Instead Pain admitted Naruto was right just like he was and he even encouraged Naruto to tell him a better way to achieve peace if he thought he could do better...for the first time Naruto didn't actually have an answer. It wasn't a matter of strength...if he hadn't been so desperate to end his confusion and pain over Pain's words he wouldn't have tried to remove the seal completely. He was going to release it because when he asked for help in stopping that pain the Kyuubi was the only one to offer him an escape.

Going into tails mode right away just to beat Pain with mere strength would have proven nothing...it wouldn't have made Naruto feel any better or satisfied like he was with Neji. It would have been an immature way of dealing with it....he actually ended up going up to 8 tails but out of desperation not to prove he was right.

Wherner
02-28-2010, 08:53 PM
I think we all can agree that Sakura didn't kill Sasuke, because Kishi wouldn't allow anyone other than Naruto to kill him
I don't think Naruto would be able to kill Sasuke. He would probably be just like Sakura.

XxTakumi.UchihaxX
02-28-2010, 09:37 PM
[...[/quote]
i dnt agree at all.......its her chose in life if she wanna kill then she would but that will piss off alot of naruto fans hating if she did do it so let be nature if she does she does..

XxTakumi.UchihaxX
02-28-2010, 10:08 PM
No i dnt agree

dillydally
02-28-2010, 10:20 PM
I don't think Naruto would be able to kill Sasuke. He would probably be just like Sakura.

I don't mean that Naruto will kill him, but if Sasuke is going to be killed by anyone it will be naruto

C4 Karura
03-01-2010, 04:12 PM
This is a manga...and even by Kishi's own standards and his own info unrealistic things happen all the time. I'm used to it by now as it happens with most Sasuke fights.
Yes, it's a manga, and so stuff like her stopping happens. However, she can't have been expected to tell ahead of time that she's going to do something so ridiculous. All her years of training tell her that stuff like that doesn't happen.

Oh no...there are times when Naruto didn't know better and he messed up. Same goes for Sakura and this time was one of them...it's almost exactly like the first time they met up with Sasuke in Part II and she was careless and Yamato got hurt trying to protect her. If she had killed him then all of this argument would be pointless and we wouldn't even be debating this.
The point is, she did know better. Yes, the laws of reality magically screwed up to ruin her plan, but she didn't know that kind of thing can happen evey time Sasuke's in danger. As an expierenced ninja, she knows all about fighting. She knows that she has a chance to kill Sasuke. She knows that she must do it immeaditely. And she knows how adreniline works, so thinking she might be able to stop and rethink things isn't even a blip on her radar. Given any sort of real logic, her decision to go down made sense. She knew what she was doing when she decided to disregard her Sensei's orders.
My point of this is, you can hate Sakura for stopping, even if it is a logical, emotional, and plotwise impossibility, since it did happen anyway. But you can't say that she's selfish, or doesn't think things through.

Wooster
03-01-2010, 04:18 PM
I think we all can agree that Sakura didn't kill Sasuke, because Kishi wouldn't allow anyone other than Naruto to kill him
But there are many ways Sakura could not have killed Sasuke. He could have used chidori like the Raikage to deflect the blow for example.

Instead, Sakura froze and ended up looking pretty pathetic.

Vatanui AKA Pride
03-01-2010, 05:13 PM
***SPOILERS***

READ THROUGH THE WHOLE THING BEFORE YOU REPLY. SERIOUSLY, SO MANY TIMES, I'LL MAKE A LONG CASE IN MY OP, AND PEOPLE WON'T BOTHER TO READ IT ALL. THEN, THEY MAKE COUNTERARGUMENTS CONTAINING THINGS I 100% PERCENT DISPROVED IN MY OP. IT'S REALLY ANNOYING.


All right, Chapter 484 seems to have unleashed new waves of hatred for Sakura's character. In it, she has the chance to stab Sasuke in the back, and finally end the Sasuke storyline, which stopped being interesting (with few exceptions) about 25 chapters ago. However, she is racked with indecision, and stops less than inch from his back. This has caused about 60% of all Chapter 484-related posts to be whining about Sakura not killing him.
True.
They all seem to revolve around the theme: "Grrr... Sakura's such a crybaby! She's whining about everything! Seriously, MAKE YOUR MIND UP ABOUT SASUKE, YOU LOSER! She needs to die, and soon..."
Partially.
I think this is where they're being completely blind to vast majorities of the recent story, and only noticing the parts that support thier whining. Maybe, if they were actually paying attention, they'd notice how much has changed in the last 35 chapters.
Lol.
For about 175 chapters, from after the Sasori fight to when she decided to kill Sasuke herself, she bacame a pathetic, weak character. When Part 2 started she and Naruto were on the same level. She actually had a fair chance at beating him, if it weren't for Shadow Clone Spamming. Then, after the Sasori fight, she fell out the spotlight completely. She appeared in arcs, for sure, but she stopped doing anything that mattered. Without the constant stream of powerups that the rest of the characters were getting, she quickly fell behind and became a weakling. Then, about 15 chapters ago, she made the decision to kill Sasuke herself, and all of a sudden became a valid character again. However, most people clung to the image they had had of her for the past 3 years, and failed to notice how increasingly great her character was becoming.
The rest, lol? Ino didn't even get a power-up. Neither did Choji, Kiba, or any of the Sannin. Only people who gotten power-ups were the other Konoha 11, who only got one. Sasuke got about ten, Naruto behind him, with Kakashi only getting two or three. Also, consider the other characters, Sakura's not the only one to have fallen out of the spotlights. Increasingly great? Lol, she barely made any development.

Here's my case for why her hesitating to kill Sasuke doesn't make her hateable:

Everything from Page 16 of Chapter 456 onwards takes place on the same day. That's right. The current day in Naruto started back in July 2009. Seven months ago. Now, I could spend a very long time explaining why it's impossible for a day to have passed. However, I'm already spending quite a bit of my time making the "Pro-Sakura" case. Inevitably, someone will say, "Prove it," and when they do, I'll go and make the very long case, but for now I'm just finishing this up.
Alright, what does that have to do with anything?
Anyway, that means that on the morning of this "day", Sakura was in Tsunade's tent with Shizune, until around the time the meeting started. She was still totally convinced (like much of the fandom), that Sasuke could be saved. Then, Sai and Shikamaru came in and explained that Sasuke was going to be killed by the Konaha 11. All her closest friends are telling her (with very persuasive arguments) why it's the best decision to kill Sasuke. The realization that they might be right causes her to break down crying. Even though she has a very good reason to be upset and crying, the fandom instantly decides that this makes her "a crybaby".
Ino cried; yet she decided to grow up and go with the decision as well, instead of Sakura.
She decides to go and talk to Naruto herself, and explain to him that killing Sasuke is a viable option. However, when she sees him, she decides that she has always relied on him him too much, and that it's time to finally do something for him.
Plot moment. And in the end he hyperventilated partially due to her.
Becuase of this, she goes up to him and gives a fake speech in order to help him get over her. She knows that once she kills Sasuke, he'll hate her for doing so. And so she tells him that she no longer wants him to keep the promise he made to her 3 years ago (to bring Sasuke back). She explains that she no longer loves Sasuke, and loves him instead. She does all this becuase she knows it'll make Naruto angry with her, so he'll feel less betrayed when he finds out she killed Sasuke. However, Naruto can tell that she's lying and still loves Sasuke. She fake-storms off, and thinks to herself, "Naruto! I'm sorry!" Then she asks Kiba to find Sasuke for her.
Another crappy plot moment.
As soon as she finds out from Kiba where Sasuke is, she tries to put the rest of her team to sleep. She knows that even with all 4 of them they're still no match for Sasuke. Her only chance is to join his team, and then wait for the right moment to catch him off-guard and kill him. However, if her 3 teammates are with her, then she'll have to kill them before Sasuke will let her join him (if he doesn't kill them himself). So she puts them to sleep for thier own safety.
I agree with this. Only this as of now.
When she reaches Sasuke, her plan seems to be working, until he says she can only join if she kills Karin. She can't get herself to do it, thinking, "She... has nothing to do with this..." She contemplates for a moment trying to kill Sasuke now, so she won't have to kill Karin, but Sasuke can tell, and tries to kill her. (Kakashi manages to show up at exactly the last moment to stop him.)
Plot No Jutsu Moment.
She follows Kakashi's orders to heal Karin, but once that's done, and she's been told by Karin that he's evil ("He's... not the Sasuke you knew anymore."), she realizes she has to help. Despite Kakashi's (and all the fan's) conviction that she's much too weak to do anything against Sasuke, she manages to sneak up on him and has the chance to kill him. But she falters. She stops just short of his back and breaks down sobbing. This gives Sasuke the chance to turn around and almost kill her.
And why did she have to go? Plot Moment again. Why not start sobbing before she made the decision?
Everyone hates Sakura for not killing Sasuke, but let's remember this: For the past 3 years, her entire life has been devoted to saving Sasuke. Then, in an emotionally traumatic 4 or 5 hours, she has to abandon her life goal and try to kill Sasuke instead. Can you really blame her for having a moment of pained doubt before she makes a decision that will affect the rest of her life?
Proves how much she's addicted to him like cocaine, as well as Naruto, Sasuke's ex-boyfriend. Four or five hours, lol. Yes, but she could have done so before recklessly charging into danger and then stopping just at the last moment.

Anyway, I just spent about 2 hours looking up my references and typing this all out, so if you think I did a good job on this, could you give me a Rep Up? It really makes me feel like it was worth it. *gets down repped by 4 people for "asking for rep"* What?! NOOOOOOOO...........

In red.

Vatanui AKA Pride
03-01-2010, 05:15 PM
I agree with you, that's what I've been saying...but I guess most of us are getting used to Sasuke doing those sorts of things and messing things up but Sakura doesn't get the chance that often so yeah obviously right now everyone is commenting on her actions.

Fullmetal Alchemist isn't done...neither the manga nor the Anime it's actually just getting good. Also, I merely used it as an example to say I prefer less pages more often than more pages but to have to wait longer especially when there's a good cliffhanger!

You're right Fullmetal isn't Naruto but it's extremely popular. If it wasn't they wouldn't have made an anime series, a movie and years after it was done start on another Anime.

See the thing is, during the fight with Neji, Naruto only needed more chakra to prove his point. All he needed was to defeat Neji anyway possible and prove to him once and for all that not everything is set in stone.

Pain on the other hand didn't use the same approach as Neji or Gaara. He didn't say "you're unable to beat me so that proves you're wrong!" If it had been just that I'm sure Naruto wouldn't have hesitated to go in to tails mode. Instead Pain admitted Naruto was right just like he was and he even encouraged Naruto to tell him a better way to achieve peace if he thought he could do better...for the first time Naruto didn't actually have an answer. It wasn't a matter of strength...if he hadn't been so desperate to end his confusion and pain over Pain's words he wouldn't have tried to remove the seal completely. He was going to release it because when he asked for help in stopping that pain the Kyuubi was the only one to offer him an escape.

Going into tails mode right away just to beat Pain with mere strength would have proven nothing...it wouldn't have made Naruto feel any better or satisfied like he was with Neji. It would have been an immature way of dealing with it....he actually ended up going up to 8 tails but out of desperation not to prove he was right.


Fullmetal Alchemist is definitely better than Naruto/Sasuke Shippuden: better developed characters, actual romances, some strategy involved, etc.

C4 Karura
03-01-2010, 05:16 PM
In red.
Actually, debating with 3littlepigs and Wooster has caused my opinion on this subject to drastically change. Read through the last few pages to see what we're talking about now.

Wooster
03-01-2010, 05:22 PM
Actually, debating with 3littlepigs and Wooster has caused my opinion on this subject to drastically change. Read through the last few pages to see what we're talking about now.
Yes, our influence is parasitic. Who knows what you will believe next?:p

SasukeUchiha13
03-01-2010, 06:35 PM
if sasuke died there wouldn't be a point for Naruto,He's a importnat character

Wherner
03-01-2010, 06:42 PM
if sasuke died there wouldn't be a point for Naruto,He's a importnat character
Kishi could add more villans to the story, but like you said, there wouldn't be much of a point. Naruto has grown up as a ninja mainly because of Sasuke.

Hinata~
03-01-2010, 06:45 PM
Why would you hate sakura anyways?Shes the drama queen in the series

Vatanui AKA Pride
03-01-2010, 08:21 PM
Actually, debating with 3littlepigs and Wooster has caused my opinion on this subject to drastically change. Read through the last few pages to see what we're talking about now.
Oh, never mind then. Mostly because I'm too lazy to read seven pages of long posts. :lol:

3littlepigs
03-01-2010, 09:51 PM
Fullmetal Alchemist is definitely better than Naruto/Sasuke Shippuden: better developed characters, actual romances, some strategy involved, etc.
I wouldn't say Kishi's completely bad at it but you're right in a lot of ways Fullmetal is better developed. I love that series! Naruto is just easily liked by little kids who can't even appreciate most Anime/Manga so it helps its popularity.
Yes, our influence is parasitic. Who knows what you will believe next?:p
lol :p

♥Mira Blossom♥
03-02-2010, 02:49 PM
This is really good and really well written! I agree with every point you've made.
Mostly, its probably the Sasuke haters that whine about it because they want him gone.

C4 Karura
03-02-2010, 08:18 PM
Oh, never mind then. Mostly because I'm too lazy to read seven pages of long posts. :lol:
Sorry. `:)