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View Full Version : When Bears Attack or Kishi Please Stop


Wooster
02-13-2010, 08:09 AM
Yes I stole the theme of the title from Rocky and Bullwinkle. What are you going to do about it?:)

A small spoiler about Chapter 482 ahead, so leave if you don't want to know.

So Karin was attacked by bear during the Chunin Exams and Sasuke saved her, huh? I don't really care about this little flashback in and of itself, but Kishimoto you need to stop the retcon. I am going to use this little example to explain how problematic all this visiting of the past can be.

First of all, I don't recall seeing Karin before in the Chunin exams, at some point we pretty much saw all the members.


Secondly, when did Sasuke have time to save Karin, it must have been after the attack by the Sound ninja and before Kabuto found them. However, didn't team 7 rest in that time, weren't they worried that there was no one else left? Maybe Sasuke did his daring act of rescue between leaving to get water and returning to save Sakura and Naruto from Kabuto. The day's never done for our little emo super hero.


Finally, did Sasuke just use the Lion's Barrage on the bear? I thought he invented that during the preliminary exams. I thought that was supposed to illustrate how the genius Sasuke could invent new moves on the fly. Your secret is out Sasuke, we now know you practice new moves on bears before you bring them out in battle. I feel sorry for the bear hit by Kirin.

Kishimoto could have easily had the first meeting between Karin and Sasuke been when they were with Orochiumaru. Sasuke was there for three years. He could at least had it occur during some unnamed C-rank mission, but instead he was too clever by half, and bungled the story.

Now in this little journey to the past, the space-time continuum is relatively intact, but that isn't the case in other instants. Danzo's character was pretty well developed and his motivations were quite clear. Nope, he actually just had a friendly rivalry with the Third. Uh, okay.


The retcon that has reverberated the most through the universe is Itachi being good. Itachi almost killed Kakashi and Sasuke with Tsukuyomi. Nope, he knew that the missing Tsunade would return and heal them. Itachi thinks Sasuke is worthless, so he tells him to live in fear. Nope, he also tells him to develop the Mangekyo sharingan and use his hate to defeat him. Oh, but don't hate so much to become an insane murderer. Whoops, he forget to tell Sasuke that one. Sasuke first used sharingan to save Naruto during the battle with Haku. Nope, he actually used it long ago against Itachi.

The second worst retcon because it's so convoluted is the continually changing story of how the Nine-Tailed Fox was sealed in Naruto. It was all quite straightforward. There were some inconsistencies when the Third used it, but fortunately there was no retcon then. Except for this fun fact: Aren't all four previous Hokages sufferings unending battles in the belly of the reaper? Sucks to be them, at least the Third only has to fight Orochimaru's arms. But there was the Jiraiya explanation. Oh what a mess that was. Then Minato appears in Naruto's mind.


Now I will say I enjoyed Naruto meeting his father as much as anyone, but couldn't it have been done in a mysterious way like Kakashi and his dead dad. How do you trap a piece of yourself that is aware of current events? It would have made more sense if Minato was only aware of the past.

I could go on and on, about the problems of Itachi being good and only half of the Nine Tails sealed in Naruto, but I think I've made my point. It's dangerous to travel to the past for the author as much as the characters. I think the future is all right now, Kishimoto should be satisfied. Kishimoto better be careful with this time travel or he will cross his history streams, then there might be a full protonic reversal. (How do like that mixed movie metaphor?)

Now here's something we hope you really like:
Edit: Apparently people don't like Ghostbuster, so how about a more relevant '80s movie link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdhpxD923pQ&feature=related#t=17s) or (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdhpxD923pQ&feature=related#t=1m26s) two (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZDxXivCybk&feature=related):
Ghostbusters! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCHFVTQKqdQ)

Leafy
02-13-2010, 08:35 AM
Ghostbusters?, but yes kishi should have thought more about the flashback Karin had.

Wooster
02-13-2010, 08:40 AM
Ghostbusters?, but yes kishi should have thought more about the flashback Karin had.
It's in reference to the full protonic reversal. That and the randomness of Rocky and Bullwinkle.

Kishimoto needs to only use flashbacks he has planned from the beginning. For example, Madara and the First Hokage fight is a great telling of the past. Kishimoto has subtly hinted at this since the battle at the Final Valley. Clearly he knew about how he was planning this long before the reader did. An author can surprise the reader with the past, but he shouldn't surprise himself. That's why sucks to be a writer, you already know what has, is and will happen. At least you should.

Wooster
02-13-2010, 10:58 AM
There everyone happy. Bear reference added.

Parak111
02-13-2010, 11:50 AM
The point where Sasuke saved Karin, must be where he went to get food or something after the Sound Ninja's attack. It must have happened before he saw Kabuto stopping Naruto from opening the scroll.


As for the Lion's Barrage, he may have invented it way back then. And it's not necessary for Karin to have been shown. Kishimoto's just filling holes in time.

Lawliet.S
02-13-2010, 12:04 PM
Even if the flashback was different Karin's flashback wasn't needed, it would have been better if she had died without one. Knowing that Karin knew Sasuke before he recruited her made no sense.

Hidden Ninja45
02-13-2010, 12:43 PM
I thought Sasuke technically had the lion's barrage after he fought Rock Lee. I thought he got that move from Lee by using the Sharigan. Meh. That episode was too long ago. I don't remember it entirely.


I normally like flashbacks that can be thought of completely differently because of something that happened to the present. The thing with Karin being in the Forest of Death was a little sloppy, but I think it was interesting.

Wooster
02-13-2010, 01:15 PM
The point where Sasuke saved Karin, must be where he went to get food or something after the Sound Ninja's attack. It must have happened before he saw Kabuto stopping Naruto from opening the scroll.


As for the Lion's Barrage, he may have invented it way back then. And it's not necessary for Karin to have been shown. Kishimoto's just filling holes in time.
Yep, I imagine that's the only time it could have happened. Also, that and why else would Sasuke not mention he found other ninja. It wouldn't have been important once Kabuto was there.

I thought Sasuke technically had the lion's barrage after he fought Rock Lee. I thought he got that move from Lee by using the Sharigan. Meh. That episode was too long ago. I don't remember it entirely.


I normally like flashbacks that can be thought of completely differently because of something that happened to the present. The thing with Karin being in the Forest of Death was a little sloppy, but I think it was interesting.
Sasuke copied Lee's technique, but the ending was supposed to be new.

Karin having a flashback is not a problem, but it should not have occured during the chunin exam. If Kishimoto wanted it to be before Sasuke joined Orochimaru, he could have easily made it some unknown mission outside the village.

NarutoUzumaki12
02-13-2010, 01:34 PM
I hated Karin's flashback

mrsticky005
02-13-2010, 02:19 PM
I think "Rocky" appears in Volume 6. Rock Lee saves that crazy squirrel thinking that
someone put a letter bomb on the poor guy. But what really happened was that Rocky
was developing a brand new jet pack and was testing it out. Too bad Rock Lee destroyed the prototype...

Wooster
02-13-2010, 02:24 PM
I think "Rocky" appears in Volume 6. Rock Lee saves that crazy squirrel thinking that
someone put a letter bomb on the poor guy. But what really happened was that Rocky
was developing a brand new jet pack and was testing it out. Too bad Rock Lee destroyed the prototype...
Alright hotshot, which episode did Bullwinkle appear in?

mrsticky005
02-13-2010, 02:32 PM
Alright hotshot, which episode did Bullwinkle appear in?


Bullwinkle never appeared but in the Hidan/Kakuzu arc they had
his cousin "LeeRoy"

rm3991
02-13-2010, 02:36 PM
. . . . I don't know exactly what you guys are talking about now, but I think maybe Kishi will explain all of the 'errors' later. It's not like him to make mistakes, ya know.

Wooster
02-13-2010, 02:36 PM
Bullwinkle never appeared but in the Hidan/Kakuzu arc they had
his cousin "LeeRoy"
Aha, I got it. Madara is really Snidely Whiplash. That's why he wears the mask.

Wooster
02-13-2010, 02:40 PM
. . . . I don't know exactly what you guys are talking about now, but I think maybe Kishi will explain all of the 'errors' later. It's not like him to make mistakes, ya know.
I hope not. The more Kishimoto explains the worse he gets. Let me use an analogy. In a classics Simpsons episode Homer travels back in time. He kills an insect and screws up the future. So he keeps going back to try to fix the future and always fails. He gets so frustrated he goes back to the past and kills everything he sees. That is Kishimoto. He needs to be happy with the future he created and not worry about the fact that there are no doughnuts, especially with those delicious "raindrops".

rm3991
02-13-2010, 02:52 PM
HahA! great analogy :) but maybe Kishi already had a plan before he showed us all that flashback, so really, he's not going back in time over 'n over again to fix it because, in reality, there never was a problem. at least I hope so. it's not like professionals to make mistakes that glaringly obvious. the flashbacks give us some insight of the characters (but I agree that I am at a loss for the sasuke-karin flashback. I'm pretty sure it was said that their meating in the forest gettin orichmaru escapees was one of their first meatings) the only thing I can think of is that it wasn't sasuke in the chunin exam that saved her? but that's impossible cuz there was no other Uchiha alive to be there . . .

mrsticky005
02-13-2010, 02:53 PM
Aha, I got it. Madara is really Snidely Whiplash. That's why he wears the mask.

You figured it out.

I hope not. The more Kishimoto explains the worse he gets. Let me use an analogy. In a classics Simpsons episode Homer travels back in time. He kills an insect and screws up the future. So he keeps going back to try to fix the future and always fails. He gets so frustrated he goes back to the past and kills everything he sees. That is Kishimoto. He needs to be happy with the future he created and not worry about the fact that there are no doughnuts, especially with those delicious "raindrops".

Great episode.

Wooster
02-13-2010, 02:57 PM
You figured it out.



Great episode.
From henceforth this will be Wooster's Rule: Whoever argues that Madara is really... has already lost the argument.

It was. It's based on the "The Sound of Thunder" by Ray Bradbury.

C4 Karura
02-13-2010, 03:04 PM
I will agree with most of the retcon situations, but the Karin one makes sense in the story line.

There's an unseen gap of two or three days between when Sasuke and Naruto wake up during the Sound Ninja incident and when we see the scene where Naruto contemplates opening the scroll. The Karin incident could've happened sometime early in that period, so Sasuke can be wondering a few days after that if people are still left in the forest.

About him using "Lion's Barrage" against the bear: There's nothing in his battle against Yoroi suggesting it's the first time he's used the move. It's just the first time readers see him use it.

Wooster
02-13-2010, 03:12 PM
I will agree with most of the retcon situations, but the Karin one makes sense in the story line.

There's an unseen gap of two or three days between when Sasuke and Naruto wake up during the Sound Ninja incident and when we see the scene where Naruto contemplates opening the scroll. The Karin incident could've happened sometime early in that period, so Sasuke can be wondering a few days after that if people are still left in the forest.

About him using "Lion's Barrage" against the bear: There's nothing in his battle against Yoroi suggesting it's the first time he's used the move. It's just the first time readers see him use it.
Could you point out where Karin was during the chunin exam? I must have missed her when Kishimoto showed all the participants. Also, I think it's quite clear they only rested after the Sound ninja incident. The Lion's Barrage was supposed to be original, it's not if he has used it before.

rm3991
02-13-2010, 03:17 PM
I thought sasuke said something about "and now for my new original technique" or something. he really did imply it was something he just created . . . but your theory makes sense . .

C4 Karura
02-13-2010, 03:18 PM
Could you point out where Karin was during the chunin exam? I must have missed her when Kishimoto showed all the participants. Also, I think it's quite clear they only rested after the Sound ninja incident. The Lion's Barrage was supposed to be original, it's not if he has used it before.
Look closely at the First Exam. They never show all of the particapants in one panel. The same thing goes for the Second Exam. And it's pretty clear she never made it to the Third.

Also, can you point me to where in the manga it says that that's the first time Sasuke used the move?

Wooster
02-13-2010, 03:23 PM
Look closely at the First Exam. They never show all of the particapants in one panel. The same thing goes for the Second Exam. And it's pretty clear she never made it to the Third.

Also, can you point me to where in the manga it says that that's the first time Sasuke used the move?
It's called implied. Not to mention Naruto came up with his move only from wacthing Sasuke. It was suggested that Naruto's move was less impressive because he had to see Sasuke do it first. If Sasuke was practising this move, he's the one that didn't do much.

The point was Sasuke needed Lee's move to lead into the Lion's Barrage, which was his original. You will agree that Sasuke never until this point copied Lee's move right?

C4 Karura
02-13-2010, 03:34 PM
It's called implied. Not to mention Naruto came up with his move only from wacthing Sasuke. It was suggested that Naruto's move was less impressive because he had to see Sasuke do it first. If Sasuke was practising this move, he's the one that didn't do much.
It doesn't matter if it makes the Yoroi fight less dramatic if he used it before then. All we know is that it's the first time the rest of Team 7 sees it.

The point was Sasuke needed Lee's move to lead into the Lion's Barrage, which was his original. You will agree that Sasuke never until this point copied Lee's move right?
Since when does he need to use Shadow of the Dancing Leaf to use Lion's Barrage? It's essientiely kicking your opponent into the ground. Your move.

Wooster
02-13-2010, 03:48 PM
Your move.
I agree there is nothing to say Sasuke didn't use Lion's Barrage before, but as you just said this has made a dramtic fight less so. Kishimoto has unintentionally undermined his own story. Likewise Sasuke never says he never used his Sharingan to copy a technique before. However, if Kishimoto alters the past again to have him copy someones technique before the preliminaries, you would agree that he removed even more drama.

I liken it to the revalation that Sasuke somehow used the sharingan during the Uchiha massacre, it ruined part of the speciality that Sasuke used the sharingan to stop Haku.

Evertime Sasuke's used it before the enemy had to be in the air, and Sasuke using the Dancing Leaf Shadow. Again it's been reduce to a series of kicks, again less important.

The point is not that it couldn't happen, but it strains believability. The world created is not just actual words, but the imagination of the reader. If you start forcing things to work just perfectly, you remove the "mask" if you will. You see how the story works not the story itself. I think you will agree that Kishimoto didn't think of having Karin in the chunin exams until very recently. That is bad form, and it really shows. All elements of character should be thought out before hand. Of course it's difficult with serial writing, but the best thing to do is not to screw with the known past.

C4 Karura
02-13-2010, 04:02 PM
I agree there is nothing to say Sasuke didn't use Lion's Barrage before, but as you just said this has made a dramtic fight less so. Kishimoto has unintentionally undermined his own story. Likewise Sasuke never says he never used his Sharingan to copy a technique before. However, if Kishimoto alters the past again to have him copy someones technique before the preliminaries, you would agree that he removed even more drama.

I liken it to the revalation that Sasuke somehow used the sharingan during the Uchiha massacre, it ruined part of the speciality that Sasuke used the sharingan to stop Haku.

Evertime Sasuke's used it before the enemy had to be in the air, and Sasuke using the Dancing Leaf Shadow. Again it's been reduce to a series of kicks, again less important.

The point is not that it couldn't happen, but it strains believability. The world created is not just actual words, but the imagination of the reader. If you start forcing things to work just perfectly, you remove the "mask" if you will. You see how the story works not the story itself. I think you will agree that Kishimoto didn't think of having Karin in the chunin exams until very recently. That is bad form, and it really shows. All elements of character should be thought out before hand. Of course it's difficult with serial writing, but the best thing to do is not to screw with the known past.
You made a really interesting case with this post. I strongly agree that it takes away the significence of some events. However, I think he has been mildly planning a few of the things you mentioned.

Back around Karin's introduction, Suigetsu tells her, "I know the truth, you know... In the past, with Sasuke, you..." *Karin angrily slaps him* I think this flashback is what he's been planning since her introduction.

You're right, he hadn't created Karin's character back in Part 1, but the same can be said for a lot of Part 2 things. Where was the Akatsuki during the Chunin Exams? Where was Pain? Did Madara Uchiha even exist back then? At that point, they were not part of the Naruto world, even though we know now that they're highly related to the characters and events of that arc.

KARINISSOSEXY
02-13-2010, 04:32 PM
[QUOTE=Wooster;2443394]Yes I stole the theme of the title from Rocky and Bullwinkle. What are you going to do about it?:)

A small spoiler about Chapter 482 ahead, so leave if you don't want to know.

So Karin was attacked by bear during the Chunin Exams and Sasuke saved her, huh? I don't really care about this little flashback in and of itself, but Kishimoto you need to stop the retcon. I am going to use this little example to explain how problematic all this visiting of the past can be.

First of all, I don't recall seeing Karin before in the Chunin exams, at some point we pretty much saw all the members.


Secondly, when did Sasuke have time to save Karin, it must have been after the attack by the Sound ninja and before Kabuto found them. However, didn't team 7 rest in that time, weren't they worried that there was no one else left? Maybe Sasuke did his daring act of rescue between leaving to get water and returning to save Sakura and Naruto from Kabuto. The day's never done for our little emo super hero.


Finally, did Sasuke just use the Lion's Barrage on the bear? I thought he invented that during the preliminary exams. I thought that was supposed to illustrate how the genius Sasuke could invent new moves on the fly. Your secret is out Sasuke, we now know you practice new moves on bears before you bring them out in battle. I feel sorry for the bear hit by Kirin.

Kishimoto could have easily had the first meeting between Karin and Sasuke been when they were with Orochiumaru. Sasuke was there for three years. He could at least had it occur during some unnamed C-rank mission, but instead he was too clever by half, and bungled the story.

Now in this little journey to the past, the space-time continuum is relatively intact, but that isn't the case in other instants. Danzo's character was pretty well developed and his motivations were quite clear. Nope, he actually just had a friendly rivalry with the Third. Uh, okay.


The retcon that has reverberated the most through the universe is Itachi being good. Itachi almost killed Kakashi and Sasuke with Tsukuyomi. Nope, he knew that the missing Tsunade would return and heal them. Itachi thinks Sasuke is worthless, so he tells him to live in fear. Nope, he also tells him to develop the Mangekyo sharingan and use his hate to defeat him. Oh, but don't hate so much to become an insane murderer. Whoops, he forget to tell Sasuke that one. Sasuke first used sharingan to save Naruto during the battle with Haku. Nope, he actually used it long ago against Itachi.

[SIZE=2]The second worst retcon because it

Wooster
02-13-2010, 04:35 PM
You made a really interesting case with this post. I strongly agree that it takes away the significence of some events. However, I think he has been mildly planning a few of the things you mentioned.

Back around Karin's introduction, Suigetsu tells her, "I know the truth, you know... In the past, with Sasuke, you..." *Karin angrily slaps him* I think this flashback is what he's been planning since her introduction.

You're right, he hadn't created Karin's character back in Part 1, but the same can be said for a lot of Part 2 things. Where was the Akatsuki during the Chunin Exams? Where was Pain? Did Madara Uchiha even exist back then? At that point, they were not part of the Naruto world, even though we know now that they're highly related to the characters and events of that arc.
Yes you are right Suigetsu has hinted that Sasuke and Karin were involved in some way ,but there are many ways they could have met. If Kishimoto wanted it to be before Orochimaru, there are plenty of time gaps he could have used.

Obviously, many characters have not exist until Part II, however, that does not mean they haven't existed in Kishimoto's mind. The easiest example is Madara, we even saw a statue of Madara at the end of Part I. And Sasuke was already looking at the tablet in the secret Uchiha meeting place.

Telling about the past we don't know about works because it adds to our understanding of the world. An example is Danzo in an earlier age. Putting aside all the stupid character stuff, this is good because we see ninja wearing armor like a past age. This is new information and is interesting and is build upon what we know about the First and Second Hokage looked like.

Adding events to something we do know about, chunin exams, makes us alter our understanding and is jarring. For example, I looked through all the pictures of the early chunin examine. Essentially given all the angles during the written part we should have seen all the ninja. There were no dark haired girls except for Hinata. But then outside of the forest of death there are dark haired girls all over the place. I think there are more unique ninja than the total number in the exam. I would have never noticed this but that Kishimoto has now told us Karin is in the chunin exams. Essentially, it screws with the mystique and reveals flaws.


I think Kishimoto is a great storyteller, but he get's himself into trouble sometimes. I just used Karin as a recent example. It's only a minor change and really doesn't damage the story that much if at all. Now about Itachi being good...

Wooster
02-13-2010, 04:37 PM
Yes I stole the theme of the title from Rocky and

You got bitten by the quote bug. You should fix your post if you didn't know this happened.

KARINISSOSEXY
02-13-2010, 04:38 PM
Dude, calm down, Kishi is smarter than you think. It was when he left for water. I read all of that chapter in vol. 7, and then when sasuke gets up to leave, naruto and sakura talk for 5 pages about the contents of the scroll. Naruto goes to open it and pop go's Kabuto! Sasuke comes from behind a rock, disgruntled, and sees Kabuto. Hmm, he had no water. What do you suppose he went back there to do...? hmmm.....Get your mind out of the gutter, he went to go kick the ;);););) out of a bear. He thought plenty about this moment. I read the online chapter as I read volume seven cause I had a similar question. You think it was a coincidence?

You got bitten by the quote bug. You should fix your post if you didn't know this happened.
Yeah, dude it pissed me off, I spent 15 minutes on my post.

Wooster
02-13-2010, 04:43 PM
Yeah, dude it pissed me off, I spent 15 minutes on my post.
Yeah that sucks. That's why I always copy my long posts before I hit submit.


Dude, calm down, Kishi is smarter than you think. It was when he left for water. I read all of that chapter in vol. 7, and then when sasuke gets up to leave, naruto and sakura talk for 5 pages about the contents of the scroll. Naruto goes to open it and pop go's Kabuto! Sasuke comes from behind a rock, disgruntled, and sees Kabuto. Hmm, he had no water. What do you suppose he went back there to do...? hmmm.....Get your mind out of the gutter, he went to go kick the ;);););) out of a bear. He thought plenty about this moment. I read the online chapter as I read volume seven cause I had a similar question. You think it was a coincidence?

You're right if it happened, this is pretty much it. It's not that it's impossible. It's just improbable and too convient.

C4 Karura
02-13-2010, 08:59 PM
Yes you are right Suigetsu has hinted that Sasuke and Karin were involved in some way ,but there are many ways they could have met. If Kishimoto wanted it to be before Orochimaru, there are plenty of time gaps he could have used.

Obviously, many characters have not exist until Part II, however, that does not mean they haven't existed in Kishimoto's mind. The easiest example is Madara, we even saw a statue of Madara at the end of Part I. And Sasuke was already looking at the tablet in the secret Uchiha meeting place.

Telling about the past we don't know about works because it adds to our understanding of the world. An example is Danzo in an earlier age. Putting aside all the stupid character stuff, this is good because we see ninja wearing armor like a past age. This is new information and is interesting and is build upon what we know about the First and Second Hokage looked like.

Adding events to something we do know about, chunin exams, makes us alter our understanding and is jarring. For example, I looked through all the pictures of the early chunin examine. Essentially given all the angles during the written part we should have seen all the ninja. There were no dark haired girls except for Hinata. But then outside of the forest of death there are dark haired girls all over the place. I think there are more unique ninja than the total number in the exam. I would have never noticed this but that Kishimoto has now told us Karin is in the chunin exams. Essentially, it screws with the mystique and reveals flaws.


I think Kishimoto is a great storyteller, but he get's himself into trouble sometimes. I just used Karin as a recent example. It's only a minor change and really doesn't damage the story that much if at all. Now about Itachi being good...
Once again, you make a very interesting observation about the series. I'm going to Rep you up for all the work you're putting into these posts.

I'm really not sure what there is left to talk about with the Karin situation, but I think Kishi, even back in Itachi's original arc, was planning on some level to make him good.

When Kurenai and Asuma stop them on the road out of the village, he says, "...Asuma, Kurenai... Please do not interfere... I don't want to kill you." If he really was the Big-Bad-Guy-of-Doom who killed his family just to see if he could, why would he think twice about killing two old friends who were getting in his way?

Also, it's pretty clear that he could've taken Naruto back in Part 1, but he pretended that he was too weak too face Jiriaya and left. Just look, Sasuke can use Tsukiyomi and Amatsurasu many times in a day now. Itachi used them each once, and claimed that that made him too weak to fight, even it's clear he has more power than Sasuke.

EDIT: Sorry, I have to spread rep around before I can give it to you.

KARINISSOSEXY
02-14-2010, 07:27 AM
Yes you are right Suigetsu has hinted that Sasuke and Karin were involved in some way ,but there are many ways they could have met. If Kishimoto wanted it to be before Orochimaru, there are plenty of time gaps he could have used.

Obviously, many characters have not exist until Part II, however, that does not mean they haven't existed in Kishimoto's mind. The easiest example is Madara, we even saw a statue of Madara at the end of Part I. And Sasuke was already looking at the tablet in the secret Uchiha meeting place.

Telling about the past we don't know about works because it adds to our understanding of the world. An example is Danzo in an earlier age. Putting aside all the stupid character stuff, this is good because we see ninja wearing armor like a past age. This is new information and is interesting and is build upon what we know about the First and Second Hokage looked like.

Adding events to something we do know about, chunin exams, makes us alter our understanding and is jarring. For example, I looked through all the pictures of the early chunin examine. Essentially given all the angles during the written part we should have seen all the ninja. There were no dark haired girls except for Hinata. But then outside of the forest of death there are dark haired girls all over the place. I think there are more unique ninja than the total number in the exam. I would have never noticed this but that Kishimoto has now told us Karin is in the chunin exams. Essentially, it screws with the mystique and reveals flaws.


I think Kishimoto is a great storyteller, but he get's himself into trouble sometimes. I just used Karin as a recent example. It's only a minor change and really doesn't damage the story that much if at all. Now about Itachi being good...

Yeah, What C4 said...And you expect the forest to be so filled with only those in the written exams? No, there mustve been some other exam somewhere else, because there were plenty of people who werent writing who were in the forest. Where was grass disguised Orochimaru? I didnt see him/her. where were the oboro ninja? not there. Where was that ninja that died of Gaara's beastly-ness? He wasn't there.

Gamblor
02-14-2010, 09:44 AM
The retcon that has reverberated the most through the universe is Itachi being good. Itachi almost killed Kakashi and Sasuke with Tsukuyomi. Nope, he knew that the missing Tsunade would return and heal them. Itachi thinks Sasuke is worthless, so he tells him to live in fear. Nope, he also tells him to develop the Mangekyo sharingan and use his hate to defeat him. Oh, but don't hate so much to become an insane murderer. Whoops, he forget to tell Sasuke that one. Sasuke first used sharingan to save Naruto during the battle with Haku. Nope, he actually used it long ago against Itachi.I think Itachi was always planned to be good because in chapter 7 page 16 Sasuke references Itachi crying after the massacre.

Wooster
02-14-2010, 10:01 AM
Once again, you make a very interesting observation about the series. I'm going to Rep you up for all the work you're putting into these posts.

I'm really not sure what there is left to talk about with the Karin situation, but I think Kishi, even back in Itachi's original arc, was planning on some level to make him good.

When Kurenai and Asuma stop them on the road out of the village, he says, "...Asuma, Kurenai... Please do not interfere... I don't want to kill you." If he really was the Big-Bad-Guy-of-Doom who killed his family just to see if he could, why would he think twice about killing two old friends who were getting in his way?

Also, it's pretty clear that he could've taken Naruto back in Part 1, but he pretended that he was too weak too face Jiriaya and left. Just look, Sasuke can use Tsukiyomi and Amatsurasu many times in a day now. Itachi used them each once, and claimed that that made him too weak to fight, even it's clear he has more power than Sasuke.

EDIT: Sorry, I have to spread rep around before I can give it to you.
I take Itachi's comment then as just cool confidence. He has no desire to kill them, but he knows he easily can. Later he tells Kisame to kill them, when he finds out Kakashi knows about the Akatsuki. I don't think he was bluffing here. Itachi also used Tsukoyomu on Kakashi and Sasuke, and it's quite the vile technique.

I think Itachi was originally supposed to be Madara and Danzo rolled in to one. He's not violent, but he has almost no emotions and has grand plans for power. Not to mention in Sasuke's first flashback, Sasuke says that Itachi never spends time with him. Originally, we were presented with an Itachi that does not care about his family or pretend to.

The biggest problem is Itachi telling Sasuke to hate him. Sure the explanation is that he wanted Sasuke to be looked upon as a hero for killing a mass murderer. But later he tells Naruto he thinks Sasuke may turn to evil. Well why did you tell him to hate you more? Obviously, Sasuke's desire for revenge that turned him crazy stemed partly from what Itachi told him.

I think comparing strength levels are hard to do. First, we have to assume Kishimoto is being consistent, which he probably isn't. Second, we know Jiraiya almost defeated Pain. Pain says so himself that he would have lost if he didn't have his secret, i.e. Nagato controlled Pain from remote. I think Pain is and was stronger than Itachi. Besides Kisame and Itachi were supposed to get Naruto without causing a big commotion. Itachi wanted to take Kakashi when he found out that Kakashi knew about the Akatsuki. They were trying to operate from the shadows.

Now that's not to say Kishimoto pulled the good Itachi from his butt in Volume 43. I think he finally decided during the Naruto v. Sasuke fight at the Final Valley. First we see Madara, in the form of statue. I assume at this point Kishimoto is already planning to have Madara be the actual leader of the Akatsuki.

Second we see another flashback with Itachi being nice to his younger brother, but more importantly we see the scene where Itachi is accused of killing Shisui. Itachi actualy displays emotion here and is for some reason upset with the Uchiha clan. Of course, it is anger, but the previous Itachi was always cool and dispassionate. If he wanted power why would he care if the Uchiha clan emphasized the clan first. I didn't really know what to make of this. Finding out later that Itachi was good and conflicted about what he needed to do makes immense sense here.

So the problem with this altering of history is that there are inconsistences, not just mars on the story. There is no way to fix it, and I wouldn't want Kishimoto to try. There is essentially a good and bad Itachi. Both exist at once, some sort of weird Doublethink. Also, good Itachi led to Madara and Danzo, and combined both Nine-Tailed Fox and the Uchiha massacre, thus entwining Naruto's and Sasuke's fate. That's cool, Kishimoto just was a step too slow in thinking it up.


Yeah, What C4 said...And you expect the forest to be so filled with only those in the written exams? No, there mustve been some other exam somewhere else, because there were plenty of people who werent writing who were in the forest. Where was grass disguised Orochimaru? I didnt see him/her. where were the oboro ninja? not there. Where was that ninja that died of Gaara's beastly-ness? He wasn't there.

Well according to Ibiki and Anko only the written test takers when to the Forest of death. Given their discussion about numbers.

Seems to me they must have been playing musical chairs during the written exam, that's why we never saw them. Kishimoto needs to do another Karin flashback, where Ibiki tells a subset of ninja to move every five minutes to make it harder to cheat off of one person.

Fan of Minato
02-14-2010, 10:04 AM
First things first, Naruto is not a "killing" manga. It's the choices of various people. Naruto's choices and Sasuke's choices. Itachi told Sasuke everything he could and wanted Sasuke to choose for himself.

And the Lions barrage was made before he used it against a human for the first time.

And Minato was a professional at Fuuinjutsu. Just so you know.
So was Itachi.

Itachi being good has no problems, it is actually a twist. xDD

Also, its not exactly the "half of nine-tails". Its like us and our shadow. Our shadow is not "half of us" neither are we "half of" our shadow.

(also people didn't need to be healed by Tsunade to be healed from Tsukyomi.They live but it just takes longer to heal completely.)

Wooster
02-14-2010, 10:04 AM
I think Itachi was always planned to be good because in chapter 7 page 16 Sasuke references Itachi crying after the massacre.
I think Sasuke's was refering to his own crying, which he did in bucketfuls.

Wooster
02-14-2010, 10:20 AM
First things first, Naruto is not a "killing" manga. It's the choices of various people. Naruto's choices and Sasuke's choices. Itachi told Sasuke everything he could and wanted Sasuke to choose for himself.

And the Lions barrage was made before he used it against a human for the first time.

And Minato was a professional at Fuuinjutsu. Just so you know.
So was Itachi.

Itachi being good has no problems, it is actually a twist. xDD

Also, its not exactly the "half of nine-tails". Its like us and our shadow. Our shadow is not "half of us" neither are we "half of" our shadow.

(also people didn't need to be healed by Tsunade to be healed from Tsukyomi.They live but it just takes longer to heal completely.)
Ah, I pulled out the Itachi lovers. Thank you C4 Karura.:)

Twist are fine, but they are supposed to be twists for the reader not the author. In the ideal world, the writer should know the entire plot before the story is started. Obviously, that's difficult for serial writing.

I don't think we have any evidence that you can recover from Tsukoyomi. Kisame was actually surprised that Kakashi lived. I assume normal people die from it, weaker sharingan user fall into a permanent coma.

Itachi gave Sasuke the choice to become insane? Well that's great. If he wanted Sasuke to chose, he should have just told him nothing not keep egging him on to kill him, especially when they met later. Why did Itachi use Tsukuyomi on Sasuke? Itachi had already beaten Sasuke into submission.

A shadow is much less than you, in fact its not you at all its only light around you. In the nine tails case a mass amount of power wasn't sealed in Naruto. Beside's it's not that it can't be explained. It's that the explanation was cockeyed and convoluted. Most importantly, it's not how it was explained in the beginning, the Nine-Tailed Fox was sealed into Naruto, which resulted in Minato's death.

But perhaps that's a more serious response than you wanted. Now I am going back to my Itachi Twist. Mmmm, love the two swirly flavors.

KARINISSOSEXY
02-14-2010, 10:50 AM
I take Itachi's comment then as just cool confidence. He has no desire to kill them, but he knows he easily can. Later he tells Kisame to kill them, when he finds out Kakashi knows about the Akatsuki. I don't think he was bluffing here. Itachi also used Tsukoyomu on Kakashi and Sasuke, and it's quite the vile technique.

I think Itachi was originally supposed to be Madara and Danzo rolled in to one. He's not violent, but he has almost no emotions and has grand plans for power. Not to mention in Sasuke's first flashback, Sasuke says that Itachi never spends time with him. Originally, we were presented with an Itachi that does not care about his family or pretend to.

The biggest problem is Itachi telling Sasuke to hate him. Sure the explanation is that he wanted Sasuke to be looked upon as a hero for killing a mass murderer. But later he tells Naruto he thinks Sasuke may turn to evil. Well why did you tell him to hate you more? Obviously, Sasuke's desire for revenge that turned him crazy stemed partly from what Itachi told him.

I think comparing strength levels are hard to do. First, we have to assume Kishimoto is being consistent, which he probably isn't. Second, we know Jiraiya almost defeated Pain. Pain says so himself that he would have lost if he didn't have his secret, i.e. Nagato controlled Pain from remote. I think Pain is and was stronger than Itachi. Besides Kisame and Itachi were supposed to get Naruto without causing a big commotion. Itachi wanted to take Kakashi when he found out that Kakashi knew about the Akatsuki. They were trying to operate from the shadows.

Now that's not to say Kishimoto pulled the good Itachi from his butt in Volume 43. I think he finally decided during the Naruto v. Sasuke fight at the Final Valley. First we see Madara, in the form of statue. I assume at this point Kishimoto is already planning to have Madara be the actual leader of the Akatsuki.

Second we see another flashback with Itachi being nice to his younger brother, but more importantly we see the scene where Itachi is accused of killing Shisui. Itachi actualy displays emotion here and is for some reason upset with the Uchiha clan. Of course, it is anger, but the previous Itachi was always cool and dispassionate. If he wanted power why would he care if the Uchiha clan emphasized the clan first. I didn't really know what to make of this. Finding out later that Itachi was good and conflicted about what he needed to do makes immense sense here.

So the problem with this altering of history is that there are inconsistences, not just mars on the story. There is no way to fix it, and I wouldn't want Kishimoto to try. There is essentially a good and bad Itachi. Both exist at once, some sort of weird Doublethink. Also, good Itachi led to Madara and Danzo, and combined both Nine-Tailed Fox and the Uchiha massacre, thus entwining Naruto's and Sasuke's fate. That's cool, Kishimoto just was a step too slow in thinking it up.

Well according to Ibiki and Anko only the written test takers when to the Forest of death. Given their discussion about numbers.

Seems to me they must have been playing musical chairs during the written exam, that's why we never saw them. Kishimoto needs to do another Karin flashback, where Ibiki tells a subset of ninja to move every five minutes to make it harder to cheat off of one person.


Dude, Kishimoto has planned so many other things that hundreds of chapters later it was revealed. You read wayy to much into this. Chapter 7, Page 15. "That time.....Crying...." "Crying....My...." "...Only I can kill him!" And then in volume 43 he tells "tobi": "It turns out I wasnt imagining things. He was crying."

I know, soemone want's to say "Well, he was talkin' 'bout how him hisself was cryin'!" No he wasn't. "Again, That time...Crying... Crying, My..."
Who was crying? His what? His eyes?! Hahaha. He snapped out of it and said "Only I can kill him."

You notice how Kisame is always like, "Itachi, come on....Why do we always have to run when it gets fun?" Because when combat with multiple people becomes initiated, he makes sure Kisame won't kill anyone. And when they encountered Naruto they made a scene and ran off. Picture it being Hidan and Kakuzu. They would've snatched his ass up so fast that Jiraiya's head would spin. He's a little genin. Tell me again why he was there UNHARMED. Itachi had made his visit long enough only to tell sasuke to get stronger.

Understand that hes putting on an ACT. He's acting Malicious, but do his actions really match up to it? He knew Kakashi could take the tsukuyomi. He's a Leaf Jonin. He couldve killed him, but he didn't. I dont recall Itachi taking the life of a single person, as of his time in Akatsuki.

I know this was in shippuden, but also remember when they presumed Deidara took sasuke's life, Itachi was saddened.

Itachi wouldve played a bigger role in Akatsuki all together. He would've have been the reason they had 9 tails. Madara knew, but He had a bigger plan. (someone gave me a theory of theirs but I cant recall it at the moment. They thought itachi was a wierd nuisance.

Wooster
02-14-2010, 11:04 AM
Dude, Kishimoto has planned so many other things that hundreds of chapters later it was revealed. You read wayy to much into this. Chapter 7, Page 15. "That time.....Crying...." "Crying....My...." "...Only I can kill him!" And then in volume 43 he tells "tobi": "It turns out I wasnt imagining things. He was crying."

I know, soemone want's to say "Well, he was talkin' 'bout how him hisself was cryin'!" No he wasn't. "Again, That time...Crying... Crying, My..."
Who was crying? His what? His eyes?! Hahaha. He snapped out of it and said "Only I can kill him."

You notice how Kisame is always like, "Itachi, come on....Why do we always have to run when it gets fun?" Because when combat with multiple people becomes initiated, he makes sure Kisame won't kill anyone. And when they encountered Naruto they made a scene and ran off. Picture it being Hidan and Kakuzu. They would've snatched his ass up so fast that Jiraiya's head would spin. He's a little genin. Tell me again why he was there UNHARMED. Itachi had made his visit long enough only to tell sasuke to get stronger.

Understand that hes putting on an ACT. He's acting Malicious, but do his actions really match up to it? He knew Kakashi could take the tsukuyomi. He's a Leaf Jonin. He couldve killed him, but he didn't. I dont recall Itachi taking the life of a single person, as of his time in Akatsuki.

I know this was in shippuden, but also remember when they presumed Deidara took sasuke's life, Itachi was saddened.

Itachi wouldve played a bigger role in Akatsuki all together. He would've have been the reason they had 9 tails. Madara knew, but He had a bigger plan. (someone gave me a theory of theirs but I cant recall it at the moment. They thought itachi was a wierd nuisance.
Sorry, no dice. Sasuke was refering to himself. He wasn't listening to Sakura's question. He was crying because of his brother. Kishimoto just tacked on the Itachi crying at the end.

We already saw that memory twice before. Sasuke fainted, now all of sudden Sasuke got back up and had sharingan. I call B.S. on this. Sasuke first used the sharingan against Haku. Not to mention the memory of Itachi crying just returned to Sasuke only after he heard Madara's story, he said so himself, thus Sasuke couldn't have been thinking about a memory he had lost.

Like I said before old evil Itachi was cautious and emotionless, not malicious. He was like Danzo. Good, angry, righteous Itachi was born during the Final Valley fight.

Itachi Twist it's like two ninja in one.

KARINISSOSEXY
02-14-2010, 11:34 AM
Sorry, no dice. Sasuke was refering to himself. He wasn't listening to Sakura's question. He was crying because of his brother. Kishimoto just tacked on the Itachi crying at the end.

We already saw that memory twice before. Sasuke fainted, now all of sudden Sasuke got back up and had sharingan. I call B.S. on this. Sasuke first used the sharingan against Haku. Not to mention the memory of Itachi crying just returned to Sasuke only after he heard Madara's story, he said so himself, thus Sasuke couldn't have been thinking about a memory he had lost.

Like I said before old evil Itachi was cautious and emotionless, not malicious. He was like Danzo. Good, angry, righteous Itachi was born during the Final Valley fight.

Itachi Twist it's like two ninja in one.
Sorry, but yes. From what i hear u dont already know you can hqve suppressed memories. Like raype victims. They remember later in life. In this case he remembered six years later. We do see this flashback more than once, but we never see him hit the ground. We see him start to fall and its over. Now for the anime, they had NO idea he wasn gonna hit the ground so the animated to where it seemed as such, but, in the manga its displayed perfecty. It NEVER SAID HE FIRST USED HIS SHARINGAN FIGHTING HAKU!! They sais it was developing however. They never said that he had first come up with lions barage on the fly!! I believe somewhere it mentioned that he was usig his sharingans copy powers on lee to GET the move, then he developed the move! And you described itahi as malicious. You said he could heartlessly kill. And anyway, im not an itachi lover, im defending the story and pointing out the wrong points you made.

Wooster
02-14-2010, 12:04 PM
Sorry, but yes. From what i hear u dont already know you can hqve suppressed memories. Like raype victims. They remember later in life. In this case he remembered six years later. We do see this flashback more than once, but we never see him hit the ground. We see him start to fall and its over. Now for the anime, they had NO idea he wasn gonna hit the ground so the animated to where it seemed as such, but, in the manga its displayed perfecty. It NEVER SAID HE FIRST USED HIS SHARINGAN FIGHTING HAKU!! They sais it was developing however. They never said that he had first come up with lions barage on the fly!! I believe somewhere it mentioned that he was usig his sharingans copy powers on lee to GET the move, then he developed the move! And you described itahi as malicious. You said he could heartlessly kill. And anyway, im not an itachi lover, im defending the story and pointing out the wrong points you made.
Obviously, people have repressed memories, but here's the thing, they are repressed. If Sasuke had a repressed memory, he can't recall it when he is 12. Sasuke only remembers later after the Madara story.

You can give any meanig to That time... Crying...My. But they need to be placed in context of what the audience knew at the time. We knew Sasuke wanted to kill someone. Now we know there was crying involved and something about my. Obviously, when Sasuke was "dying" during the fight with Haku we found out it was his brother. That's all the meaning in those sentence fragments. Likewise when the reader sees someone fall and then black that implies unconsciouness. Kishimoto can go back and change it, but that doesn't mean that he should.

Again there's a difference between stated and implied. Clearly it was implied that Sasuke first used the sharingan against Haku to protect Naruto. To alter the story later,retcon, Kishimoto has undermined his own story. You can add all sorts of provisos to make it technically plausible, but that doesn't make a good, logical story flow.

Finally, heartless and malicious are different. Malicious means intent to do evil and enjoying it. Evil Itachi was nearly emotionless. His actions may be hard, but they were to achieve his goals, gain power, etc.

I'm just using Itachi lovers as short hand for those that won't believe the change over to Itachi being good wasn't a completely smooth ride.
You want Kishimoto to be a manga god, he is just a man and as such has made a few mistakes. It's understandable for a story that's told over a decade now. Even classic books have inconstencies in them and people have pointed them out. That's all I'm doing here, that doesn't mean I don't think Kishimoto is a great stroyteller.

Besides Itachi Twist is two great flavors.

KARINISSOSEXY
02-14-2010, 01:05 PM
Obviously, people have repressed memories, but here's the thing, they are repressed. If Sasuke had a repressed memory, he can't recall it when he is 12. Sasuke only remembers later after the Madara story.

You can give any meanig to That time... Crying...My. But they need to be placed in context of what the audience knew at the time. We knew Sasuke wanted to kill someone. Now we know there was crying involved and something about my. Obviously, when Sasuke was "dying" during the fight with Haku we found out it was his brother. That's all the meaning in those sentence fragments. Likewise when the reader sees someone fall and then black that implies unconsciouness. Kishimoto can go back and change it, but that doesn't mean that he should.

Again there's a difference between stated and implied. Clearly it was implied that Sasuke first used the sharingan against Haku to protect Naruto. To alter the story later,retcon, Kishimoto has undermined his own story. You can add all sorts of provisos to make it technically plausible, but that doesn't make a good, logical story flow.

Finally, heartless and malicious are different. Malicious means intent to do evil and enjoying it. Evil Itachi was nearly emotionless. His actions may be hard, but they were to achieve his goals, gain power, etc.

I'm just using Itachi lovers as short hand for those that won't believe the change over to Itachi being good wasn't a completely smooth ride.
You want Kishimoto to be a manga god, he is just a man and as such has made a few mistakes. It's understandable for a story that's told over a decade now. Even classic books have inconstencies in them and people have pointed them out. That's all I'm doing here, that doesn't mean I don't think Kishimoto is a great stroyteller.

Besides Itachi Twist is two great flavors.
Yes, and heres the thing about memories that are repressed. like you said, they're REPRESSED. NOT FORGOTTEN. You recall them eventually. Usually its midlife, but if someone reminds you, OF COURSE you'll remember. and he wasnt twelve. He was 16 when Madara reveals it to them. And I never said Masashi was a manga god, I just said theres no flaw where you percieve.
And it doesn't matter to Itachi, whats stated or implied. He may imply something thats stated hundreds of chapters later. He's done so many times. He implied one thing, and then it all came together 4 real time years later. That's the thing about Kishimoto. I think it's cool, but you know that because hee's done it so much, people are so amazed that they think therews something wrong with it. And it wasnt so long after he said "crying...my" that we were told it was his brother. Really, that statement would have more appeal if they just revealed it was his brother before he died or something of the like.

C4 Karura
02-14-2010, 01:29 PM
I'm really enjoying following this thread. There are so many interesting cases for both sides of the argument.

Wooster
02-14-2010, 01:41 PM
Yes, and heres the thing about memories that are repressed. like you said, they're REPRESSED. NOT FORGOTTEN. You recall them eventually. Usually its midlife, but if someone reminds you, OF COURSE you'll remember. and he wasnt twelve. He was 16 when Madara reveals it to them. And I never said Masashi was a manga god, I just said theres no flaw where you percieve.
And it doesn't matter to Itachi, whats stated or implied. He may imply something thats stated hundreds of chapters later. He's done so many times. He implied one thing, and then it all came together 4 real time years later. That's the thing about Kishimoto. I think it's cool, but you know that because hee's done it so much, people are so amazed that they think therews something wrong with it. And it wasnt so long after he said "crying...my" that we were told it was his brother. Really, that statement would have more appeal if they just revealed it was his brother before he died or something of the like.
I think we completely agree on the repressed memory. Sasuke recalled it later when he talked to Madara. But this means he wasn't thinking about it when hewas 12. It silly to imply Kishimoto set up those few sentence fragments to mean Itachi was crying. Clearly he didn't.

Implying matters in the sense if it was Kishimoto's intent. If he wants to fool the reader that's fine. However, he had better know what he actually wants to do later. For example, someone appears to be killed, in the next chapter it's only a clone. Most of the case I have mention that clearly did not happen. Kishimoto changed the intent after the fact, that's poor form. It's as bad retcon as Star Wars.

Wooster
02-14-2010, 01:47 PM
I'm really enjoying following this thread. There are so many interesting cases for both sides of the argument.
What I'm I just here for your amusement?;) You're the one that started this whole Itachi debate, before no one even noticed I had it in the OP.

mrsticky005
02-14-2010, 09:22 PM
I think the reason Itachi was telling Sasuke stuff like "You don't have enough hatred"
and getting Sasuke to want revenge is because Itachi is making himself as the first
step in defeating Madara Uchiha. Itachi knows that Madara is a liar and would not
keep his promise of not harming Konoha and the Ninja World. Itachi couldn't just
say to Sasuke "Madara is the bad guy." because Sasuke wouldn't believe him.
Sasuke only believed Itachi that Madara was alive in 42 because of Sasuke's
past with Itachi. Itachi did what he did in Part 1 to act as a warning about Madara.
Also he had to put on an act because Kisame would have revealed his intentions
to Pain who would reveal them to Madara. Then Itachi's plan would fail.
Madara had Kisame act as Itachi's watchdog (Kisame did not know this)
Itachi knew this and as a result kept what he knew to himself.
He had to speak in sorta riddles and stuff to get the message across without
having Kisame figure it out.

Wooster
02-15-2010, 07:12 AM
I think the reason Itachi was telling Sasuke stuff like "You don't have enough hatred"
and getting Sasuke to want revenge is because Itachi is making himself as the first
step in defeating Madara Uchiha. Itachi knows that Madara is a liar and would not
keep his promise of not harming Konoha and the Ninja World. Itachi couldn't just
say to Sasuke "Madara is the bad guy." because Sasuke wouldn't believe him.
Sasuke only believed Itachi that Madara was alive in 42 because of Sasuke's
past with Itachi. Itachi did what he did in Part 1 to act as a warning about Madara.
Also he had to put on an act because Kisame would have revealed his intentions
to Pain who would reveal them to Madara. Then Itachi's plan would fail.
Madara had Kisame act as Itachi's watchdog (Kisame did not know this)
Itachi knew this and as a result kept what he knew to himself.
He had to speak in sorta riddles and stuff to get the message across without
having Kisame figure it out.
The problem with telling Sasuke he doesn't have enough hatred, is that it pushed Sasuke over the edge. Did Itachi really want Sasuke to abandon his village and join Orochimaru? Probably, not. Secondly, why would did Itachi only think that Sasuke could defeat Madara, maybe it would have been better if Itachi took all he knew and told Kakashi or something.

The biggest problem is that Itachi used Tsukoyomi on Sasuke, that could have very well killed Sasuke or at least leave Sasuke in a permanent coma.

Itachi in the beginning seemed to enjoy fighting, but cautious not to stir up too much attention. You're right this could be an act.
The problem with only assuming Itachi is only acting for Kisame is that he used Tsukoyomi twice, ordered Kisame to kill Asuma and Kurenai, and was indifferent to Kisame chopping of Naruto's arms and/or legs. I don't think Itachi knew Guy and Jaraiya were going to stop these things from happening. Now maybe these were just sacrifices Itachi was willing to make to counter a greater evil. Not to mention, Itachi's act must not have been very good because Madara had already figured out exactly what Itachi was up to. I assume Itachi knew this, whether Madara knew what Itachi knew.....what Madara knew...Itachi knew etc. I am not going to bother with.

I think there are plenty hints that Itachi was good later on. Most importantly Itachi never uses Tsukoyomi to torture anyone again. I assume Kishimoto realized that if Itachi was supposed to be good he beter stop making him so sadistic. The change in Itachi is actually pretty obvious fom when we first see him to all his other appearances. Itachi is much more subdued in later appearances. The only remaining problem is Itachi helping to seal the tailed beast. If he knew what Madara was planning, you would think he try to sabotage this. At least enough for Kakashi and other's to reach them before they sealed the Shakaku. I assume Kishimoto didn't know what to do about this, so he just left it as is. Because clearly by Part II, he had decided Itachi would end up being good.

Oh, well there is no way of knowing when Kishimoto first thought up the idea of changing which side Itachi was really on. But it left us with Itachi Twist, with two equally great tasting, swirly flavors.

Itachi Twist: "Please sir, I want some more."
Madara: "More? You want More?!?"

tyler
02-15-2010, 09:03 AM
I think Kishimoto is just playing on our assumptions. Best example would be going up to a girl at a junior high dance and saying "would you like to dance with me." Of course given the context and the language the girl would assume that she was being asked to dance. It wouldn't seem far fetched at all. But what the guy really said to the girl was do you "want" to dance, not "will you dance with me." Of course after the girl says yes to the guy, the guy would say "Oh thats good to know, I'll try to find someone desperate enough to dance with you." Of course, this is pretty cruel and not what you expect at all, but yet, it's actually been the plan the entire time.

The Karin flashback was kind of pointless in my opinion, but yet it was believeable.

Itachi being good? Completely believeable. He had to be the bad guy. He had to play the part. He couldn't sabatoge sealing the tailed beasts because he would be found out. He could control a Tsukuyomi to keep from killing someone. He wanted Sasuke to kill him. He didn't want anyone to think he was good. So to hold back would undermine his own plans.

Wooster
02-15-2010, 04:42 PM
I think Kishimoto is just playing on our assumptions. Best example would be going up to a girl at a junior high dance and saying "would you like to dance with me." Of course given the context and the language the girl would assume that she was being asked to dance. It wouldn't seem far fetched at all. But what the guy really said to the girl was do you "want" to dance, not "will you dance with me." Of course after the girl says yes to the guy, the guy would say "Oh thats good to know, I'll try to find someone desperate enough to dance with you." Of course, this is pretty cruel and not what you expect at all, but yet, it's actually been the plan the entire time.

The Karin flashback was kind of pointless in my opinion, but yet it was believeable.

Itachi being good? Completely believeable. He had to be the bad guy. He had to play the part. He couldn't sabatoge sealing the tailed beasts because he would be found out. He could control a Tsukuyomi to keep from killing someone. He wanted Sasuke to kill him. He didn't want anyone to think he was good. So to hold back would undermine his own plans.
You know I like you little analogy. Hope you don't mind if a use it here. Like you said a misconception can be delibrate, but only some of the time. For example, lets change your analogy, boy asks girl if she wants to dance expecting her to say no. She unexpectanly says yes, so he gives the same response "I'll find someone for you" because he is too embrassed to actually dance with her. In both your analogy and mind the same things are said, but the intent is clearly different. However, someone observing could probably tell the difference.

This is how I related to Itachi being good, Kishimoto changed Itachi after he introduced Itachi. I think I would liken in to a stench, something doesn't smell quite right when the story is changed after the fact. Now when it's planned to fool the audience, that smell isn't there. For example, the Itachi vs. Sasuke fight Itachi presents himself as a powerhunger vile man. But we learn that he was lying, it makes perfect sence. There are no contraditions and not even a hint of the retcon stench. Obviously Kishimoto had this planned from the beginning of the fight.

However, that's not the case from the beginning. Itachi using Tsukuyomi on Sasuke is inconsistent with Itachi doing everything for Sasuke's sake. If Itachi doesn't know if Sasuke can be healed, how can use this attack on him? Why is Itachi working for and helping the Akatsuki, when he does almost nothing to hinder them? Now we can come up with explanations to excuse all of these problems, but that always happens when you change an element of the story after the fact. It's like a villian being dead for ten years, but then he somehow comes back. An explanation is created for how this could happen, but everyone knows that this explanation is just a bandage to fix the story.

Actually, the longer the explanation is the worst the retcon is. See Jiraiya's longwinded and cockeyed explanation of how the Nined-Tailed Fox was sealed. This smells like a bucket of maggot-infested week old fish. Itachi being good is no near as bad as that was since there was so much build up over time, but it was not quite perfect. Kishimoto almost had it, but was a little bit behind.

I am actually glad Itachi was turned good becasue it essentially created Madara and Danzo, two of the most interesting characters in Naruto. Not to mention the story flow itself was near prefect. After the Orochimaru invasion, there's no way Kishimoto could have gone back to something mundane like the chunin exams. Introducing Itachi right away was brilliant. Unfortunately, I don't think he had quite thought up Madara yet and his role as leader of the Akatsuki. It's impressive enough that we already saw Madara, as a statue, in Part I.

kekki genki
02-15-2010, 06:37 PM
ninja art plot no jutsu........team 7 never split up so its impossible that he saved karin

Wooster
02-15-2010, 07:58 PM
ninja art plot no jutsu........team 7 never split up so its impossible that he saved karin
Pretty much. Unless when Sasuke said they rested for two days he meant they battled giant bears for two days. It's really about the same thing.

PlatonicZombie
02-15-2010, 08:06 PM
You know I like you little analogy. Hope you don't mind if a use it here. Like you said a misconception can be delibrate, but only some of the time. For example, lets change your analogy, boy asks girl if she wants to dance expecting her to say no. She unexpectanly says yes, so he gives the same response "I'll find someone for you" because he is too embrassed to actually dance with her. In both your analogy and mind the same things are said, but the intent is clearly different. However, someone observing could probably tell the difference.

This is how I related to Itachi being good, Kishimoto changed Itachi after he introduced Itachi. I think I would liken in to a stench, something doesn't smell quite right when the story is changed after the fact. Now when it's planned to fool the audience, that smell isn't there. For example, the Itachi vs. Sasuke fight Itachi presents himself as a powerhunger vile man. But we learn that he was lying, it makes perfect sence. There are no contraditions and not even a hint of the retcon stench. Obviously Kishimoto had this planned from the beginning of the fight.

However, that's not the case from the beginning. Itachi using Tsukuyomi on Sasuke is inconsistent with Itachi doing everything for Sasuke's sake. If Itachi doesn't know if Sasuke can be healed, how can use this attack on him? Why is Itachi working for and helping the Akatsuki, when he does almost nothing to hinder them? Now we can come up with explanations to excuse all of these problems, but that always happens when you change an element of the story after the fact. It's like a villian being dead for ten years, but then he somehow comes back. An explanation is created for how this could happen, but everyone knows that this explanation is just a bandage to fix the story.

Actually, the longer the explanation is the worst the retcon is. See Jiraiya's longwinded and cockeyed explanation of how the Nined-Tailed Fox was sealed. This smells like a bucket of maggot-infested week old fish. Itachi being good is no near as bad as that was since there was so much build up over time, but it was not quite perfect. Kishimoto almost had it, but was a little bit behind.

I am actually glad Itachi was turned good becasue it essentially created Madara and Danzo, two of the most interesting characters in Naruto. Not to mention the story flow itself was near prefect. After the Orochimaru invasion, there's no way Kishimoto could have gone back to something mundane like the chunin exams. Introducing Itachi right away was brilliant. Unfortunately, I don't think he had quite thought up Madara yet and his role as leader of the Akatsuki. It's impressive enough that we already saw Madara, as a statue, in Part I.


Writing a story implies having a plot to build around; having a hero fall and rise, and a protagonist to push the hero on in the story, the protagonist is the reason the hero continues on in the story. That being said, how it unfolds, the writer himself does not exactly know, though he does know the eventual outcome. Having a start, middle, and end planned, and linking the three in a somewhat believable way for the audience, is a different thing altogether. What I'm implying here... haha.... is that the characters that were created in the story take on the story and drive it. The author is responsible, in a sense, for telling the story, but it is also true that the characters take on a life of their own. Meaning that the characters, though they're fake, must act according to their "personality". If they do not act according to their personality, the readers become frusterated and no longer follow the story. What Kishi is doing is giving you a defining view, making you feel comfortable with the story; then challenging these views; making the reader rethink their initial assumptions. Similar things happen in real life after all when you meet someone and they come off as arrogant, ignorant, a ;););););), etc.. But later on, after being around this person, though not willingly, you realize that your initial impression of the person was wrong. This is, after all, why we put such importance on the first impression, because people don't typically allow for a second or third impression. From what I've read, your problems with Itachi are contridictions, not of an accidental kind through Kishi's story telling, but of your character analysis being intruded upon by Kishi revealing more about a character, so questions like, "If Itachi doesn't know if Sasuke can be healed, how can use this attack on him? Why is Itachi working for and helping the Akatsuki, when he does almost nothing to hinder them?" Are asked because you believed your initial character analysis, and have come across contradictions that undermine the original analysis. My question is why would you want a static character? I suspect that you don't, because life has taught you that you can never truely actually know someone. Now if you questioning the presentation of Itachi as a character, this becomes an asethtic argument, which is opinion based, and thus has no right answer. Which, really this whole thing is, an asethtic question (an opinionated question) on the question Has Kishi written a good story so far? And like opinions it'll come in a variety of answers.

C4 Karura
02-15-2010, 08:17 PM
0.0. Wow. Nice post, Plat! Rep Up!

Kyoko-chan
02-15-2010, 08:40 PM
Plat!!!! OMG you're like the friend I haven't met yet till now! You are officially my reader analysis buddy! ;3 YAY!!!!!

If I wasn't a noob and knew how to rep up someone, I would give you 20!

And Wooster, I always enjoy your comments! I would give you 19 1/2! But again, for the Itachi thing, well, I don't think Kishi was using RNJ (Random-no-Justu) here...Plat is right on the money. And besides, if Itachi was indeed a "bad guy", then Sasuke would have no further purpose staying away from Konoha. Now, all the stuff Madara said about Itachi could be lies (as Sasuke said like a bagillion times...), but this is highly unlikely as what he said seems to be confirmed by Sasuke's own flashbacks. See, what I'm trying to say is, give me one reason why Sasuke would go with Madara. Certainly not because Sasuke was right about Itachi being evil. Or Madara sicking the Kyuubi on the village. So in esscence, this was just a very good case of Plot-no-Jutsu. And besides, the "evil" buildup Sasuke seems to have accumulated in the metaphorical PNJ Sasuke "arc" makes for a better and more intense Naruto v. Sasuke fight. I made a post elaborating on this in the Character talk "Naruto Chitty Chatty talk club" thread. You all should read and join!

Wooster
02-15-2010, 08:52 PM
Writing a story implies having a plot to build around; having a hero fall and rise, and a protagonist to push the hero on in the story, the protagonist is the reason the hero continues on in the story. That being said, how it unfolds, the writer himself does not exactly know, though he does know the eventual outcome. Having a start, middle, and end planned, and linking the three in a somewhat believable way for the audience, is a different thing altogether. What I'm implying here... haha.... is that the characters that were created in the story take on the story and drive it. The author is responsible, in a sense, for telling the story, but it is also true that the characters take on a life of their own. Meaning that the characters, though they're fake, must act according to their "personality". If they do not act according to their personality, the readers become frusterated and no longer follow the story. What Kishi is doing is giving you a defining view, making you feel comfortable with the story; then challenging these views; making the reader rethink their initial assumptions. Similar things happen in real life after all when you meet someone and they come off as arrogant, ignorant, a ;););););), etc.. But later on, after being around this person, though not willingly, you realize that your initial impression of the person was wrong. This is, after all, why we put such importance on the first impression, because people don't typically allow for a second or third impression. From what I've read, your problems with Itachi are contridictions, not of an accidental kind through Kishi's story telling, but of your character analysis being intruded upon by Kishi revealing more about a character, so questions like, "If Itachi doesn't know if Sasuke can be healed, how can use this attack on him? Why is Itachi working for and helping the Akatsuki, when he does almost nothing to hinder them?" Are asked because you believed your initial character analysis, and have come across contradictions that undermine the original analysis. My question is why would you want a static character? I suspect that you don't, because life has taught you that you can never truely actually know someone. Now if you questioning the presentation of Itachi as a character, this becomes an asethtic argument, which is opinion based, and thus has no right answer. Which, really this whole thing is, an asethtic question (an opinionated question) on the question Has Kishi written a good story so far? And like opinions it'll come in a variety of answers.
An interesting point that characters take on more than the author intended, but obviously they can't do that themsleves. So where does this "life" come from? Obviously, the reader. So if the writer doesn't follow the rules for characters or the world itself, the reader will not like it because it will destroy the character or the world. A writer can invented anything he/she likes, but it must follow the rules the author sets or the story will become discoherent.

But I would say I am getting at point more mundane than is the stroy told well or not. It's simpler, when did Kishimoto decide to make Itachi good? I contend not immediately, rather probably at the Final Valley. I also maintain that a reader can tell when an author inserts something after the fact, instead of intentionally misleading the audience for a reveal later. Since we will never know the answer to this, yes, it will be an opinionated question. However, if I can point out an obvious contradiction in plot or even logical flow of the story, not just in character mind you, that becomes a fact not just opinion. A simple example is that if you are told a character is dead in one chapter. Then three chapters later, the character is walking around with no explaination for his sudden revival. This contradiction is a fact.

It terms of Itachi using Tsukuyomi on Sasuke, we don't really need to know his character to come to some logical conclusions. If Itachi is evil, then causing permanent damage to Sasuke present no logical problems. If he is a villian, Itachi would not care. If instead Itachi really wants Sasuke to defeat him later, he cannot permanently damage Sasuke. So if he hurts Sasuke, he needs to know that Sasuke can be healed later. Since there is no way Itachi to know Sasuke can be healed, either this is a plot flaw or Itachi is just an idiot. I don't think we have evidence that Itachi is an idiot, so I conclude it's a plot hole, small though it may be.

Also, even if there are no plot holes, I think it's a bad idea to change the past in the story. The Karin flashback is a good example. I don't think anyone would argue that Kishimoto even knew who Karin was when he wrote the chunin exam arc. Therefore to insert Karin into this arc must have been after the fact. I contend that when a writer does this it's obvious to the reader and damages the story. In general, there will also be contradictions such as Sasuke never had time during the chunin exams to save Karin. Obviously, in the Karin case the damage is very slight because it's such a minor alteration.

I would say the contradictions I have point out just are. Whether they ruin the story or not is an opinion. I also contend using retroactive continuity is a poor wrting style, again an opinion. Whether anyone wants to agree with me is up to them.

Kyoko-chan
02-15-2010, 09:06 PM
Ahh yes. The Karin-in-chuunin-exams thing...probably was just either a plot rift or RNJ. That is where I think Kishi sorta...brain farted.

Wooster
02-15-2010, 09:07 PM
Plat!!!! OMG you're like the friend I haven't met yet till now! You are officially my reader analysis buddy! ;3 YAY!!!!!

If I wasn't a noob and knew how to rep up someone, I would give you 20!

And Wooster, I always enjoy your comments! I would give you 19 1/2! But again, for the Itachi thing, well, I don't think Kishi was using RNJ (Random-no-Justu) here...Plat is right on the money. And besides, if Itachi was indeed a "bad guy", then Sasuke would have no further purpose staying away from Konoha. Now, all the stuff Madara said about Itachi could be lies (as Sasuke said like a bagillion times...), but this is highly unlikely as what he said seems to be confirmed by Sasuke's own flashbacks. See, what I'm trying to say is, give me one reason why Sasuke would go with Madara. Certainly not because Sasuke was right about Itachi being evil. Or Madara sicking the Kyuubi on the village. So in esscence, this was just a very good case of Plot-no-Jutsu. And besides, the "evil" buildup Sasuke seems to have accumulated in the metaphorical PNJ Sasuke "arc" makes for a better and more intense Naruto v. Sasuke fight. I made a post elaborating on this in the Character talk "Naruto Chitty Chatty talk club" thread. You all should read and join!
It's so hard being a contrarian. Everyone is always disagreeing with me.;)

I guess I should clarify that I don't want Itachi to return to being "evil" or that it's bad that Itachi turn out to be "good." Madara and Danzo, the tying together of the Nined-Tailed Fox attack and the Uchiha massacre, and Sasuke path to darkness are all great consquences, I mean storywise, of the change. There's also no way to go back, and I wouldn't want Kishimoto to try. Trust me, that would be much, much worse.

We are essentially just stuck with the Itachi Twist contradiction. But if I could ask anything of Kishimoto, it is to stop the retcon. At least limit the past to events we have yet to see. Stop monkeying around with events we already know about, it will only cause trouble.

Kyoko-chan
02-15-2010, 09:18 PM
Ohh noo did I make you feel bad? I'm sorry!!!!!! (bows down) please accept my apology! (...I'm just like this).

And yeah! The retcon...I guess it's worked for other manga in the sense that it provides dramatic background. It sorta confuzzles me actually when its like, "I have had you reading down this path for about a year but now I want you to believe eveything I myself have told you to know is proven wrong by this new info from RNJ!"...I can get confuzzled easily...I remeber reading this one manga...which I reread 3 times ecause of the intense retcon...I agree. I DO NOT want Kishi going down that path...

Wooster
02-15-2010, 09:25 PM
Ohh noo did I make you feel bad? I'm sorry!!!!!! (bows down) please accept my apology! (...I'm just like this).

And yeah! The retcon...I guess it's worked for other manga in the sense that it provides dramatic background. It sorta confuzzles me actually when its like, "I have had you reading down this path for about a year but now I want you to believe eveything I myself have told you to know is proven wrong by this new info from RNJ!"...I can get confuzzled easily...I remeber reading this one manga...which I reread 3 times ecause of the intense retcon...I agree. I DO NOT want Kishi going down that path...
Nah, you didn't make me feel bad. I am just worn out from the half-a-dozen or so posters with well thought out disagreements.

I don't know if it matters that a writer confuses the audience, if that's his/her intent. Though I think that would be annoying if done continuously. I just think the audience gets to be surprised, not the author. Kishimoto usually does a great job of sticking to the present or of the unknown past. Recently, he started into the retcon, I want him to stop.

Fan of Minato
02-16-2010, 08:02 PM
Ah, I pulled out the Itachi lovers. Thank you C4 Karura.:)

Twist are fine, but they are supposed to be twists for the reader not the author. In the ideal world, the writer should know the entire plot before the story is started. Obviously, that's difficult for serial writing.

I don't think we have any evidence that you can recover from Tsukoyomi. Kisame was actually surprised that Kakashi lived. I assume normal people die from it, weaker sharingan user fall into a permanent coma.

Itachi gave Sasuke the choice to become insane? Well that's great. If he wanted Sasuke to chose, he should have just told him nothing not keep egging him on to kill him, especially when they met later. Why did Itachi use Tsukuyomi on Sasuke? Itachi had already beaten Sasuke into submission.

A shadow is much less than you, in fact its not you at all its only light around you. In the nine tails case a mass amount of power wasn't sealed in Naruto. Beside's it's not that it can't be explained. It's that the explanation was cockeyed and convoluted. Most importantly, it's not how it was explained in the beginning, the Nine-Tailed Fox was sealed into Naruto, which resulted in Minato's death.

But perhaps that's a more serious response than you wanted. Now I am going back to my Itachi Twist. Mmmm, love the two swirly flavors.

~points to name~ That should solve the "itachi lover" -_-.


If I remember right, Sasuke even broke free of it without the aid of a MS or Tsunade.
Kakashi was the best sharingan user before Itachi was shown. I doubt that we can classify Kakashi as a "weak sharingan user".

Itachi could have said it out loud but what difference would it make? Sasuke has to choose for himself. And also, Itachi could have killed Sasuke. Itachi just didn't want to make it seem too "acting like" so he had to at least fight Sasuke.

The plot changes as it moves on. No huge manga is planned out to the end at the first chapter.

Hozuki Suigetsu
02-16-2010, 08:16 PM
when is the last time Kakashi actually copied someone's jutsu?

yondaime
02-16-2010, 08:22 PM
I can't really remember, but on another note. What do you guys think happened to the seal that Danzo put on ROOT members like Sai? Go away? Stay?

Hozuki Suigetsu
02-16-2010, 08:29 PM
I can't really remember, but on another note. What do you guys think happened to the seal that Danzo put on ROOT members like Sai? Go away? Stay?

It'll probably go away. Sai will tell Kakashi and Yamato everything. Then, a new, little plot will start to stir.

Nah, I dunno, I guess it doesn't matter much since Danzo is dead....

Wooster
02-16-2010, 08:30 PM
~points to name~ That should solve the "itachi lover" -_-.


If I remember right, Sasuke even broke free of it without the aid of a MS or Tsunade.
Kakashi was the best sharingan user before Itachi was shown. I doubt that we can classify Kakashi as a "weak sharingan user".

Itachi could have said it out loud but what difference would it make? Sasuke has to choose for himself. And also, Itachi could have killed Sasuke. Itachi just didn't want to make it seem too "acting like" so he had to at least fight Sasuke.

The plot changes as it moves on. No huge manga is planned out to the end at the first chapter.
Heh, you are the second one that didn't like the fact that I said Itachi lovers. I only meant that no one noticed my broadside against Itachi turned good until it was mentioned in later posts.

Sasuke didn't have Orochimaru in him the first time, nor was Itachi using Tsukoyumi to torture Sasuke later. It was used essentailly as a super genjutsu. I don't think there is any evidence that before Sasuke would have ever woken up without Tsunade. If Itachi wanted to show he was tough beating Sasuke to a pulp would have been fine. Even Kisame was surprised Itachi used Tsukoyumi against Sasuke.

Kakashi is a weak sharingan user, he even admits it himself. That doesn't mean Kakashi is weak, he is just weak compared to the Uchiha clan.

If Itachi only wanted Sasuke to choose, why did he keep telling him to hate him? Itachi was forcing Sasuke's choice. Again this makes much more sense if Itachi was evil, which he most likely was in the early chapters.

You're right the entire manga wasn't planned out. Most likely Itachi turning good wasn't planned out either. Kishimoto probably decided that later. He did a pretty good job of papering over the bad Itachi, but a few flaws remain. I don't think that can be denied. I guess in most cases people try to justify what happens later by forming reason that it works. I am just the opposite, I think about all the reasons it doesn't work. I am not saying one is better than the other, I guess in the first case it may give the reader a greater piece of mind.

KiRoOo
02-25-2010, 10:46 AM
;););););)

Wooster
10-31-2010, 09:43 PM
This is still right. KARIN WAS NOT AT THE CHUNIN EXAMS!!!!!

TheBlackChidori
10-31-2010, 09:44 PM
I watched the whole classroom scene in the anime too... No Karin.

lukerules_96
10-31-2010, 09:49 PM
Well impretty sure that when he was at that point in the series he wasnt completely sure about what was going to happen at this poit in the series and there were so many people in the Chunin Exams so it would be pretty easy to just add one and he could easily place this in the story so it is not like he messed up or anything

Densetsu_no_D
11-01-2010, 07:59 AM
Now the thing about adding Karin there is also adding her team there as well. Didn't Anko say there was an even number of teams at the Forest of Death. Because there was only enough scrolls going around for half of them to make it. Now adding Karin and her team throws that number off...and also what village was she representing? Not Otogakure?

Wooster
11-01-2010, 08:42 AM
I watched the whole classroom scene in the anime too... No Karin.
As I said before, maybe they were playing musical chairs. :lol:
Now the thing about adding Karin there is also adding her team there as well. Didn't Anko say there was an even number of teams at the Forest of Death. Because there was only enough scrolls going around for half of them to make it. Now adding Karin and her team throws that number off...and also what village was she representing? Not Otogakure?
Well one would assume that Karin team was one of then teams. Of course, you never see her team present there either.

But here is the real mind bender, there are teams present at the Forest of Death that were not in the class room. And people the that passed the first exam not at the Forest of Death, such as the old glasses man, who's name escapes me at the moment.

This is why retcon is bad, I never noticed these flaws until Kishi made me look back and exam the manga panel by panel looking for Karin.

Densetsu_no_D
11-01-2010, 09:15 AM
I just looked him up, his name is, Manabu Akado. Ones to assume him and his team didn't sign the waiver at the Forest of Death. Come to think of it your right. I don't remember that 3 man squad Kiba and his group first encountered with the leeches in the classroom at all. Maybe we're being a lil too picky. Then again if you're going to do something, do it the right way all the way....

Wooster
11-01-2010, 09:18 AM
I just looked him up, his name is, Manabu Akado. Ones to assume him and his team didn't sign the waiver at the Forest of Death. Come to think of it your right. I don't remember that 3 man squad Kiba and his group first encountered with the leeches in the classroom at all. Maybe we're being a lil too picky. Then again if you're going to do something, do it the right way all the way....
Thank you, sir! Um or ma'am, don't really know. >.>

I think not, is it that hard to have all the people that made it to the second part at least appear at the very end in the classroom? The only way to square the circle is to say there were two class rooms, but then you are screwed by the number of teams left. Musical chairs helps too, there is never a shot of every single person. Still, it is a big mess. :/

Densetsu_no_D
11-01-2010, 10:22 AM
Thank you, sir! Um or ma'am, don't really know. >.>

I think not, is it that hard to have all the people that made it to the second part at least appear at the very end in the classroom? The only way to square the circle is to say there were two class rooms, but then you are screwed by the number of teams left. Musical chairs helps too, there is never a shot of every single person. Still, it is a big mess. :/

Let's assume Kishi just threw random characters in and didn't think people would go into that much detail. I hate to say it but it seems to be the case. Regardless Karin having that flashback is a little much but....it's Kishi's world...

I'm a sir, hahaha...

Wooster
11-01-2010, 10:42 AM
Let's assume Kishi just threw random characters in and didn't think people would go into that much detail. I hate to say it but it seems to be the case. Regardless Karin having that flashback is a little much but....it's Kishi's world...

I'm a sir, hahaha...
Yes, which wouldn't a problem if Kishi didn't force people to examine those chapters with a fine tooth comb.

It was way too much, but as I said long ago, it does really affect the story. It just a blemish that is quite noticeable. There are ones that are much worse.

Didn't want to assume. ;)

zerosameri
11-01-2010, 02:56 PM
I just wasted 5 minutes of my life on this, to only realize that you could care less for Kishi's PNJ flash backs :lol:

Wooster
11-01-2010, 02:59 PM
I just wasted 5 minutes of my life on this, to only realize that you could careless for Kishi's PNJ flash backs :lol:
Nonsensical post is nonsensical.

Jakropha
11-01-2010, 06:17 PM
Btw...

Sasuke needs to stop hurting on bears, Yogi doesnt like bear hurters...

Or Booboo, or Smokey.
And technically, Pedobear will be the worst thing he's faced in his life.

GG Sasuke, Pedobear win!