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View Full Version : Jiraiya & Itachi vs. Orochimaru & Sasuke


Steven
02-10-2010, 11:25 PM
All 4 at 100%

No prep time

Blood lusted

Location: Open Field

They start 100 feet away

darkjam
02-10-2010, 11:28 PM
Jiraiya and Itchi definitely...

kokojojo
02-10-2010, 11:38 PM
is this a serious thread?

trofet
02-11-2010, 05:19 AM
Itachi solos.

Steven
02-11-2010, 11:17 PM
Itachi solos.

Jiraiya could Solo it aswell because Jiraiya is stronger then Itachi.

[Shikamaru]
02-12-2010, 12:54 AM
Jiraiya could Solo it aswell because Jiraiya is stronger then Itachi.
That's funny.

Current Sasuke could kill Itachi with pure speed feats.

Orochimaru's shown more impressive speed feats then Jiraiya in base, and any frog summons can be countered with snake summons.

I also do not see Jiraiya dodging the Snake blade, in base at least.

On top of that, Orochimaru is basically considered unkillible, only Itachi's Genjutsu would be able to do it, and Sasuke would surely kill Itachi before he had time to activate MS on Orochimaru.

Basically Speed -> Jiraiya base < Orochimaru

Basically Speed -> Itachi < Sasuke

If you believe Orochimaru will allow Jiraiya to enter Sage Mode you are mistaken. Jiraiya hasn't even shown the speed feats to dodge snake blade in base, let alone keep up Orochimaru who dodged attacks from KN4. Jiraiya's boss summons won't give him enough time in this battle, considering Orochimaru would counter with his own summons, and Sasuke would kill Itachi pretty quickly, and then move on to double team Jiraiya with Orochimaru.

Honestly, Sasuke can solo them both with ease.

Steven
02-12-2010, 04:20 AM
;2434947']That's funny.

Current Sasuke could kill Itachi with pure speed feats.

Orochimaru's shown more impressive speed feats then Jiraiya in base, and any frog summons can be countered with snake summons.

I also do not see Jiraiya dodging the Snake blade, in base at least.

On top of that, Orochimaru is basically considered unkillible, only Itachi's Genjutsu would be able to do it, and Sasuke would surely kill Itachi before he had time to activate MS on Orochimaru.

Basically Speed -> Jiraiya base < Orochimaru

Basically Speed -> Itachi < Sasuke

If you believe Orochimaru will allow Jiraiya to enter Sage Mode you are mistaken. Jiraiya hasn't even shown the speed feats to dodge snake blade in base, let alone keep up Orochimaru who dodged attacks from KN4. Jiraiya's boss summons won't give him enough time in this battle, considering Orochimaru would counter with his own summons, and Sasuke would kill Itachi pretty quickly, and then move on to double team Jiraiya with Orochimaru.

Honestly, Sasuke can solo them both with ease.

Dude your the biggest Sasuke fanboy i've seen so far.

Speed:
Jiraiya=Sasuke
Jiraiya=Orochimaru
Itachi>Jiraiya
Itachi>Sasuke
Itachi>Orochimaru

Jiraiya 4.5 speed
Sasuke 4.5 speed
Orochimaru 4.5 speed
Itachi 5 speed

Jiraiya showed faster running speed then Sasuke when he was running through the tunnels in his fight with Pain.

Jiraiya could kill the Snake summonings with Dark Swamp, then summon the 2 Giant Toads and Boss Toad.

Itachi could of killed Sasuke in there fight on the show, but it was apart of the plot. Itachi could of killed him after he ran out of chakra and Itachi still had Sasano'o activated.

Itachi's Sasano'o > Sasuke's Sasano'o
Itachi's Tsukuyomi > Sasuke's Tsukuyomi
Sasuke's Amaterasu > Itachi's Amaterasu

Orochimaru isnt unkillable, if he gets hit with Amaterasu and is forced to uses up all his chakra his body will give out of him and he will die.

the 8 headed Snake Orochime turns into will be the biggest mistake ever, because then he's to slow and Jiraiya kills him with Dark Swamp.

Jiraiya, Itachi, Giant Toad, Giant Toad, Boss Toad vs. Orochimaru & Sasuke

5>3
once Jiraiya kills Orochimaru it'll be 5>1

Jiraiya solo's Sasuke in one on one
Jiraiya solo's Orochimaru in one on one

trofet
02-12-2010, 05:19 AM
Itachi gave his ms, susanoo and amaterasu to Sasuke.. Without that sasuke is ;);););) ..

Steven
02-12-2010, 05:27 AM
Itachi gave his ms, susanoo and amaterasu to Sasuke.. Without that sasuke is ;);););) ..

even if he had MS he's ;);););) Itachi could best Sasuke with no problem.

trofet
02-12-2010, 05:32 AM
Sasuke is a brat,, The last battle will be between Sasuke and Naruto and Naruto will stomp his ass.

sasodeifan
02-12-2010, 07:44 AM
Jiraiya & Itachi

Kuromaki
02-12-2010, 07:57 AM
;2434947']Honestly, Sasuke can solo them both with ease.
LOL wut

Sasuke isn't soloing, and if he could, it wouldn't be with ease

Sasuke can't kill a healthy itachi with just his speed. If he had a speed advantage it wouldn't be so great that he'd blitz itachi.

Manda is better than the boss toads but he can't take them all on. Jiraiya can sink the other snakes with Dark Swamp.

Orochimaru still has to remove the blade from his mouth and that should be enough to signal Jiraiya.

Itachi could bring Oro down quickly with genjutsu or Ammy making it Sasuke vs. Healthy Itachi and Jiraiya.

Ino<3
02-12-2010, 08:24 AM
Jiraiya and Itchi definitely...

yep they would win!

[Shikamaru]
02-12-2010, 10:18 PM
LOL wut

Sasuke isn't soloing, and if he could, it wouldn't be with ease

Sasuke can't kill a healthy itachi with just his speed. If he had a speed advantage it wouldn't be so great that he'd blitz itachi.

Manda is better than the boss toads but he can't take them all on. Jiraiya can sink the other snakes with Dark Swamp.

Orochimaru still has to remove the blade from his mouth and that should be enough to signal Jiraiya.

Itachi could bring Oro down quickly with genjutsu or Ammy making it Sasuke vs. Healthy Itachi and Jiraiya.
By using this logic, Sasuke could kill Jiraiya with Amy or MS genjutsu.

Itachi in fact, has not shown any impressive speed feats that would even be considered in the same league as Sasuke. That's just a major, major overrating.

Itachi has not battled anyone to be in the league of Sasuke's movement and reaction speed, to think he would even be able to keep up with him is pure nonsense backed up by nothing.

Yes, my strategy remains. Sasuke can in fact speed blitz Itachi, and kill him at start.

Ok, so your logic is Itachi kills Orochimaru with MS, so Sasuke kills Jiraiya with MS or Amy. Hell, Orochimaru has shown better speed feats then Itachi, so I don't really see that happening, but O.K.

Then he moves on to kill Itachi. GG? Yes, no?

For the record, Jiraiya is not equal to Sasuke's speed, he has not shown any speed feats to even be considered in the league of Sasuke's speed.

Take the data books you randomly picked up off the internet and exclude them. I debate on what feats are shown in the manga and anime, Jiraiya is no where near Sasuke's base speed.

In any case, Jiraiya and Itachi cannot kill Sasuke. Sasuke has shown the ability to manipulate summons at will, and Jiraiya has no counter for MS or Amy. Alongside the fact Sasuke has faster base speed then Itachi, they will not win.

Kuromaki
02-12-2010, 10:37 PM
;2441878']By using this logic, Sasuke could kill Jiraiya with Amy or MS genjutsu. Sasuke doesn't start off with those unless bloodlusted.

Itachi in fact, has not shown any impressive speed feats that would even be considered in the same league as Sasuke. That's just a major, major overrating. No, a major overrating is saying Sasuke can kill him and then Jiraiya with ease. I have my doubts on Itachi beating current Sauce but I simply cannot see Sasuke stomping him.

Itachi has not battled anyone to be in the league of Sasuke's movement and reaction speed, to think he would even be able to keep up with him is pure nonsense backed up by nothing. He could've owned him in their other fight. While Sasuke has improved since then, many of his moves can still be countered by Itachi.

Yes, my strategy remains. Sasuke can in fact speed blitz Itachi, and kill him at start. ok

Ok, so your logic is Itachi kills Orochimaru with MS, so Sasuke kills Jiraiya with MS or Amy. Hell, Orochimaru has shown better speed feats then Itachi, so I don't really see that happening, but O.K. Itachi owned Orochimaru quickly with his genjutsu before, he can do it again. What's Orochimaru's defense against Itachi level genjutsu again?

Then he moves on to kill Itachi. GG? Yes, no? No.

For the record, Jiraiya is not equal to Sasuke's speed, he has not shown any speed feats to even be considered in the league of Sasuke's speed. In SM he has, and with Itachi and boss summons there backing him I believe he can make it.

Take the data books you randomly picked up off the internet and exclude them. I debate on what feats are shown in the manga and anime, Jiraiya is no where near Sasuke's base speed. Don't try to put words into my mouth.

In any case, Jiraiya and Itachi cannot kill Sasuke. When Orochimaru is down they can gang up on him. Sasuke has shown the ability to manipulate summons at will, but what about multiple summons? and Jiraiya has no counter for MS or Amy. Sasuke doesn't start off with Ammy, in character, unless he's really bloodlusted. Not to mention Genjutsu can be dispelled by toads or Itachi Alongside the fact Sasuke has faster base speed then Itachi, they will not win.
In blue.

Edit: typo..

[Shikamaru]
02-12-2010, 10:47 PM
#1: You still have not shown evidence that Itachi is even considered near Sasuke's movement. Your basing this on power scaling instead of facts.

#2: I doubt Orochimaru will stand there and allow Itachi to move into eye range. Not to mention Sasuke could attack Itachi at start.

#3: Itachi, in fact, has no counters for Sasuke. Sasuke can do whatever Itachi can do, and then some. Just because Itachi has stronger Genjutsu doesn't mean he wins the battle. Sasuke can blitz at start with Chidori. Not to mention I doubt MS works on MS. Leaving Itachi basically useless against Sasuke, considering you haven't shown any evidence of him being able to keep up with Sasuke. Just your "I don't see Sasuke killing Itachi" gut theory.

#4: Jiraiya has not shown speed feats in base to be on the level of Orochimaru, considering he kept up and dodged KN4 with ease. In base, Jiraiya has shown the feats to dodge large summons that move no where the speed of KN4.

#5: There is absolutely no chance for Jiraiya to enter SM here. He cannot dodge Orochimaru's attacks all day, especially considering he's powerless gathering the Sage Chakra. And is not as fast as Orochimaru in base.

If Sasuke engages Jiraiya at start, he kills Jiraiya relatively quickly.

If Sasuke engages Itachi at start, he kills Itachi relatively quickly.

Orochimaru can hold his own against both, considering he's shown better speed feats then them both, and has Manda to back him up.

Sasuke has shown better speed feats then Orochimaru, so do the math.

Kuromaki
02-12-2010, 10:57 PM
;2442037']#1: You still have not shown evidence that Itachi is even considered near Sasuke's movement. Your basing this on power scaling instead of facts. Itachi was considered faster than Sasuke back then, but now not so much. I'm not saying he's downright faster than current Sauce but I don't see how he gets blitzed as easily as you claim.

#2: I doubt Orochimaru will stand there and allow Itachi to move into eye range. Not to mention Sasuke could attack Itachi at start. Jiraiya sends his summons after him or immobilizes him with Dark Swamp.

Even if Orochimaru tries to get away, Itachi can catch him in genjutsu quite easily considering his speed. Not to mention he can also cast finger genjutsu.

#3: Itachi, in fact, has no counters for Sasuke. Sasuke can do whatever Itachi can do, and then some. Just because Itachi has stronger Genjutsu doesn't mean he wins the battle. Sasuke can blitz at start with Chidori. Not to mention I doubt MS works on MS. Leaving Itachi basically useless against Sasuke, considering you haven't shown any evidence of him being able to keep up with Sasuke. Just your "I don't see Sasuke killing Itachi" gut theory. See above.

#4: Jiraiya has not shown speed feats in base to be on the level of Orochimaru, considering he kept up and dodged KN4 with ease. In base, Jiraiya has shown the feats to dodge large summons that move no where the speed of KN4. Jiraiya is incredibly skilled, so what if he's not faster than Orochimaru it's not like it would be a blitz. Jiraiya held his own against Pain without information, why not Orochimaru?

#5: There is absolutely no chance for Jiraiya to enter SM here. He cannot dodge Orochimaru's attacks all day, especially considering he's powerless gathering the Sage Chakra. And is not as fast as Orochimaru in base. He can just stay on one of the toads to summon Ma & Pa and gather Sage Chakra.

Or Itachi can take Orochimaru and help him with Sasuke.

If Sasuke engages Jiraiya at start, he kills Jiraiya relatively quickly. Maybe.

If Sasuke engages Itachi at start, he kills Itachi relatively quickly. Um no.

Orochimaru can hold his own against both, considering he's shown better speed feats then them both, and has Manda to back him up. Still don't see how Orochimaru is faster than Itachi.

Jiraiya has several boss toad summons to back him up, what now.

Sasuke has shown better speed feats then Orochimaru, so do the math.
In blue, again.

Seriously I don't know where you're getting this idea that Orochimaru and Sasuke are suddenly gods of speed who use their more powerful, chakra consuming attacks first and can blitz everyone.

Nyruss
02-12-2010, 11:05 PM
What the hell is this bull plop about Sasuke being able to beat Itachi?

*looks at the poster* Ah, it's [Shikamaru]. No wonder.

Well, Orochimaru, after helping Itachi and Jiraiya slowly and painfully torture Sasuke to death, would put up a good fight, but he'd go down at the end.

[Shikamaru]
02-12-2010, 11:08 PM
Was considered faster? By who? Lmao. Itachi has never, ever shown any impressive speed feats. Sasuke pre-skip has shown more impressive speed feats then Itachi.

Considered? Maybe by you, but the facts don't show it. You base your predictions off of random power scaling, when the truth in actuality, Sasuke has shown much faster speed throughout the series.

Incredibly skilled? Jiraiya is no where near the durability of Orochimaru. Orochimaru can bend and move his body by pure will. He also has a blade that would kill Jiraiya in the blink of an eye. Orochimaru is faster, and much stronger then Jiraiya in base. Not to mention Orochimaru is basically immortal, seeing how he tanked direct chakra punches from Tsunade, and a blast from KN6. There is no way, Lmao, that Jiraiya is beating Orochimaru in base.

Ma and Pa? Really LOL? Once Jiraiya begins Sage Chakra, he can no longer summon anything to protect him. It wouldn't take Orochimaru long to kill Ma and Pa, and move on to destroy the rest with Manda and his own boss summons. Not to mention Orochimaru could probably blitz Jiraiya at start, giving him no time to even make a seal if you want to get technical.

[Shikamaru]
02-12-2010, 11:10 PM
What the hell is this bull plop about Sasuke being able to beat Itachi?

*looks at the poster* Ah, it's [Shikamaru]. No wonder.

Well, Orochimaru, after helping Itachi and Jiraiya slowly and painfully torture Sasuke to death, would put up a good fight, but he'd go down at the end.
What? Lmao!

Jiraiya > Sasuke? What planet are we on? Mars?

Your strategy is Orochimaru dies at start and Sasuke is tortured and killed? Nice.

They both have shown speed feats to exceed Jiraiya in base and Itachi. You make no sense. Their only chance would be Jiraiya entering Sage Mode, which will not happen, especially considering Sasuke could kill Jiraiya at start with Amy.

Any boss summons can also be manipulated by Sasuke's sharingan, not that Jiraiya would have time considering Orochimaru has shown superior movement feats.

Kuromaki
02-12-2010, 11:10 PM
;2442164']Was considered faster? By who? Lmao. Itachi has never, ever shown any impressive speed feats. Sasuke pre-skip has shown more impressive speed feats then Itachi.

Considered? Maybe by you, but the facts don't show it. You base your predictions off of random power scaling, when the truth in actuality, Sasuke has shown much faster speed throughout the series.

Incredibly skilled? Jiraiya is no where near the durability of Orochimaru. Orochimaru can bend and move his body by pure will. He also has a blade that would kill Jiraiya in the blink of an eye. Orochimaru is faster, and much stronger then Jiraiya in base. Not to mention Orochimaru is basically immortal, seeing how he tanked direct chakra punches from Tsunade, and a blast from KN6. There is no way, Lmao, that Jiraiya is beating Orochimaru in base.

Ma and Pa? Really LOL? Once Jiraiya begins Sage Chakra, he can no longer summon anything to protect him. It wouldn't take Orochimaru long to kill Ma and Pa, and move on to destroy the rest with Manda and his own boss summons. Not to mention Orochimaru could probably blitz Jiraiya at start, giving him no time to even make a seal.
Have you ever seen speed calcs? That have been generally agreed upon? Go look on the Battleground Wiki or something, cause I'm not really the type to determine speed calcs and whatnot.

Sasuke pre skip, are you serious? Why should I continue this debate when you think pre skip Sasuke is faster than itachi yet he got owned effortlessly at the hotel?

Nyruss
02-12-2010, 11:14 PM
;2442174']
Your strategy is Orochimaru dies at start and Sasuke is tortured and killed? Nice.

Don't be absurd. My strategy is that Orochimaru helps Jiraiya and Itachi torture and kill Sasuke at the start and then for him to put up a good fight but ultimately lose to the combined might of Jiraiya and Itachi.

[Shikamaru]
02-12-2010, 11:16 PM
Battleground wiki? Are you serious?

Use your common sense.

You are once again power scaling, when we both know Sasuke has shown better speed feats.

At the hotel? That was an extreme plot influence.

We're talking about the Sasuke who can dodge attacks on the scale of Killer Bee now.

Itachi is no where in the league of that, nor has shown any speed feats to even react to an attack by Killer Bee.

I want you to say Itachi has shown better feats then Sasuke, until then, it's obvious Sasuke could defeat Itachi relatively easy. Agreed?

Nyruss
02-12-2010, 11:18 PM
;2442206']I [Shikamaru] need to use my common sense and not just mindlessly troll.

Clearly.

Kuromaki
02-12-2010, 11:19 PM
;2442206']Battleground wiki? Are you serious?

Use your common sense. Why don't you?

You are once again power scaling, when we both know Sasuke has shown better speed feats.

At the hotel? That was an extreme plot influence.

We're talking about the Sasuke who can dodge attacks on the scale of Killer Bee now.

Itachi is no where in the league of that, nor has shown any speed feats to even react to an attack by Killer Bee.
What do you mean, extreme plot influence? What's so plot about it?

And I did say somewhere Sasuke wouldn't start off with Ammy first to counter your previous argument.

But pre skip Sasuke being faster than Itachi... how?

[Shikamaru]
02-12-2010, 11:24 PM
What do you mean, extreme plot influence? What's so plot about it?

And I did say somewhere Sasuke wouldn't start off with Ammy first to counter your previous argument.

But pre skip Sasuke being faster than Itachi... how?
I never said he was faster in preskip. I said he has shown better speed features then him, but that's beside the matter.

Itachi has not shown speed feats to react or dodge a simple speed blitz by Sasuke.

The battle is bloodlusted.

But your strategy was Itachi kills Orochimaru with MS. When in actuality, he hasn't shown the speed feats to get into eye range to use MS. And even so, if he can kill Orochimaru, then Sasuke will simply kill Jiraiya with his MS Genjutsu. Yes, No?

Going by your logic, Itachi is wiped out of chakra after killing Orochimaru with MS, which drained him completely in Konoha after using it on Kakashi.

So basically, Itachi is rendered useless after that.

Sasuke kills Jiraiya with Amy. Then continues on to kill Itachi with Amy as well. Or a speed blitz. GG. Agreed?

321zigzag1
02-12-2010, 11:25 PM
Didn't [Shikamaru] use to argue Itachi > Sasuke?

Zeek Uchiha
02-12-2010, 11:26 PM
Jiraiya and Itachi becuz Itachi killed Orochimaru easy and Saskue can't really beat Itachi he only got lucky cuz Itachi was sick and wasn't trying to kill him Jiraiya's sage mode is instant win plus Itachi Susano'o it's over

[Shikamaru]
02-12-2010, 11:28 PM
Didn't [Shikamaru] use to argue Itachi > Sasuke?
I don't recall that.

I might have said he had superior Genjutsu, but after going over the facts, Sasuke is indeed faster, and his MS would basically negate Itachi's.

321zigzag1
02-12-2010, 11:29 PM
Regardless who wins.

Anyway whats with the sudden Sasuke speedblitzes Itachi? Manga doesn't support it.

[Shikamaru]
02-12-2010, 11:29 PM
Jiraiya and Itachi becuz Itachi killed Orochimaru easy and Saskue can't really beat Itachi he only got lucky cuz Itachi was sick and wasn't trying to kill him Jiraiya's sage mode is instant win plus Itachi Susano'o it's over
Susano'o has not shown the speed feats to hit or catch Sasuke. Not to mention Itachi cannot use it for long, so basically Sasuke could dodge it until Itachi's life sorce is drained, and he dies.

Kuromaki
02-12-2010, 11:29 PM
;2442250']I never said he was faster in preskip. I said he has shown better speed features then him, but that's beside the matter. Better speed feats = better speed...

Itachi has not shown speed feats to react or dodge a simple speed blitz by Sasuke. Proof?

The battle is bloodlusted. Oh snap my bad xD Well it depends on the level of bloodlust, even bloodlusted Sasuke didn't start off with Ammy against Raikage.

But your strategy was Itachi kills Orochimaru with MS. When in actuality, he hasn't shown the speed feats to get into eye range to use MS. And even so, if he can kill Orochimaru, then Sasuke will simply kill Jiraiya with his MS Genjutsu. Yes, No? Proof again.

Genjutsu itself doesn't kill btw.

Going by your logic, Itachi is wiped out of chakra after killing Orochimaru with MS, which drained him completely in Konoha after using it on Kakashi. Itachi has more chakra than that, iirc a sick Itachi used MS like 4 times before becoming tired. It's not like it's gonna take multiple uses of MS to defeat Orochimaru. Itachi can probably take him with a high level regular Sharingan genjutsu also.

So basically, Itachi is rendered useless after that.

Sasuke kills Jiraiya with Amy. Then continues on to kill Itachi with Amy as well. Or a speed blitz. GG. Agreed? Nah.
In blue, again.

[Shikamaru]
02-12-2010, 11:30 PM
Regardless who wins.

Anyway whats with the sudden Sasuke speedblitzes Itachi? Manga doesn't support it.
Why doesn't it?

You're saying Sasuke is not faster then Itachi, whom has shown no impressive speed features during any of his appearances in the manga?

321zigzag1
02-12-2010, 11:32 PM
;2442284']Why doesn't it?

You're saying Sasuke is not faster then Itachi, whom has shown no impressive speed features during any of his appearances in the manga?

Yet bloodlusted Sasuke couldn't blitz a sick, nearly blind Itachi who was holding back to some degree, and was trying to lose.

And also faster than eye movement is partially relative to the opponent's view point. Its not that hard to grasp.

Nyruss
02-12-2010, 11:33 PM
Itachi was half dead, holding back and nearly blind when he fought Sasuke and beat the living crap out of him. If you really think that Sasuke is faster than him you're either a retard or a troll.

[Shikamaru]
02-12-2010, 11:36 PM
Kuromaki, I gave you the proof.

Orochimaru dodged attacks by KN4, tanked shots from Tsunade, and tanked a KN4 blast.

Itachi's only speed feat was blitzing a pre-skip Sasuke in a hotel room.

You're saying Sasuke couldn't kill Jiraiya with Amy at start? Just as fast as Itachi would use MS at start? Because Amy wouldn't work on Orochimaru, considering he can rebirth.

Itachi has shown weak chakra. He was toying with Sasuke, he did not, in any case, use MS Genjutsu on Sasuke, if he did, Sasuke would have died and Itachi would be completely drained, just as he was when he used it on Kakashi.

Madara told Sasuke Itachi didn't use his full power MS Genjutsu on Sasuke, because he didn't want to kill him.

Nah? With the speed feats Sasuke has shown, he could kill Jiraiya with Amy at start, and move on to kill full powered Itachi with Orochimaru, or drained Itachi by himself. Depending on the fact of wherher or not he wanted to use MS on Orochimaru to start.

Either way, Sasuke would win in the end.

[Shikamaru]
02-12-2010, 11:38 PM
Itachi was half dead, holding back and nearly blind when he fought Sasuke and beat the living crap out of him. If you really think that Sasuke is faster than him you're either a retard or a troll.
Sasuke was under Genjutsu, that was a pure Genjutsu/Ninjutsu battle.

Itachi didn't blitz Sasuke in that battle, he showed no speed feats in that battle.

Beat the living crap out of him? He pinned him against a wall, and was quickly countered with CS2. Really? Wow. Calm down.

The only thing Itachi held back on was Genjutsu in that battle. He didn't even attempt to blitz Sasuke in any part of the battle.

You make absolutely no sense. Itachi did not show any speed feats in that battle. He MS'd from start until finish.

321zigzag1
02-12-2010, 11:39 PM
;2442332']Sasuke was under Genjutsu, that was a pure Genjutsu/Ninjutsu battle.

Itachi didn't blitz Sasuke in that battle, he showed no speed feats in that battle.

Beat the living crap out of him? He pinned him against a wall, and was quickly countered with CS2. Really? Wow.

The only thing Itachi held back on was Genjutsu in that battle. He didn't even attempt to blitz Sasuke in any part of the battle.

Shuriken exchange was not a genjutsu.

Also we aren't talking about Itachi blitzing Sasuke, we are talking Sasuke blitzing Itachi which has never occured in the manga.

Nyruss
02-12-2010, 11:42 PM
Sasuke was under Genjutsu, that was a pure Genjutsu/Ninjutsu battle.

If he were faster, as you claim, he should have easily been able to kill Itachi before that happened, and no, he wasn't under genjutsu the entire time.

Itachi didn't blitz Sasuke in that battle, he showed no speed feats in that battle.


That's because he was holding back, trying to let Sasuke win.

He didn't even attempt to blitz Sasuke in any part of the battle.

That's because he was holding back, trying to let Sasuke win.

[Shikamaru]
02-12-2010, 11:43 PM
Shuriken exchange was not a genjutsu.

Also we aren't talking about Itachi blitzing Sasuke, we are talking Sasuke blitzing Itachi which has never occured in the manga.
Itachi didn't blitz Sasuke either, so what's your point?

Sasuke has shown reaction speed to dodge Killer Bee. Itachi has not shown this ability.

Meaning, of course, we assume Sasuke is faster.

Kuromaki
02-12-2010, 11:44 PM
;2442314']Orochimaru dodged attacks by KN4, tanked shots from Tsunade, and tanked a KN4 blast. 4TK who is regarded as mostly transonic. How is tanking a speed feat again, and Tsunade isn't that fast.

Itachi's only speed feat was blitzing a pre-skip Sasuke in a hotel room. A half dead, blind Itachi was easily keeping up with CS2 Sasuke.

You're saying Sasuke couldn't kill Jiraiya with Amy at start? Just as fast as Itachi would use MS at start? Because Amy wouldn't work on Orochimaru, considering he can rebirth. Itachi doesn't start off with Ammy. He likes to use genjutsu which should be able to bring down Orochimaru.

Itachi has shown weak chakra. He was toying with Sasuke, he did not, in any case, use MS Genjutsu on Sasuke, if he did, Sasuke would have died and Itachi would be completely drained, just as he was when he used it on Kakashi. He used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke.

Madara told Sasuke Itachi didn't use his full power MS Genjutsu on Sasuke, because he didn't want to kill him. Uh I thought Madara just said he was holding back.

Nah? With the speed feats Sasuke has shown, he could kill Jiraiya with Amy at start, and move on to kill full powered Itachi with Orochimaru, or drained Itachi by himself. Depending on the fact of wherher or not he wanted to use MS on Orochimaru to start.

Either way, Sasuke would win in the end.
Replies in blue

Nyruss
02-12-2010, 11:44 PM
Itachi didn't blitz Sasuke either,

That's because he was holding back, trying to let Sasuke win.

[Shikamaru]
02-12-2010, 11:47 PM
If he were faster, as you claim, he should have easily been able to kill Itachi before that happened, and no, he wasn't under genjutsu the entire time.



That's because he was holding back, trying to let Sasuke win.



That's because he was holding back, trying to let Sasuke win.
I don't care if he was holding back.

If he didn't show the speed Sasuke has shown, then he doesn't acquire that ability.

Stop Powerscaling.

If he were faster? The only opening Sasuke had to blitz was on the roof, and that's when Itachi used Amy. Just because he wanted him to win doesn't mean he's faster or more skilled in Taijutsu, Itachi was admitted into Akatsuki because of his MS, not because of his skilled Taijutsu or impressive movement, which he has never shown to have.

[Shikamaru]
02-12-2010, 11:48 PM
That's because he was holding back, trying to let Sasuke win.
You're making assumptions, no?

Nobody stated Itachi was faster, nor did Itachi show any features to consider him on Sasuke's level.

That's my arguement, just because Madara said he wanted him to win doesn't mean Itachi automatically has faster movement then Sasuke.

321zigzag1
02-12-2010, 11:48 PM
;2442361']Itachi didn't blitz Sasuke either, so what's your point?

Sasuke has shown reaction speed to dodge Killer Bee. Itachi has not shown this ability.

Meaning, of course, we assume Sasuke is faster.

Evasion of point.
Itachi had no reason to blitz plus why are you evading?
We aren't talking about Itachi blitzing.
You claimed Sasuke can blitz Itachi which we are discussing.

Also again you have failed to explain why Sasuke during the non genjutsu part of the fight couldn't blitz a half dead Itachi at all.


Where is Nikushimi when you need him.

Nyruss
02-12-2010, 11:53 PM
You're making assumptions, no?

No. It's an established fact that Itachi was half dead, nearly blind and holding back, trying to let Sasuke win.

Nobody stated Itachi was faster, nor did Itachi show any features to consider him on Sasuke's level.


Except for being able to keep up with Sasuke despite being half dead, nearly blind and holding back, trying to let Sasuke win.

That's my arguement

It's a poor one.

just because Madara said he wanted him to win doesn't mean Itachi automatically has faster movement then Sasuke.

This is true. The other stuff means Itachi has faster movement than Sasuke.

[Shikamaru]
02-12-2010, 11:53 PM
You say KN4 is at most transonic, when in fact Itachi has not shown anything to be considered transonic.

A half-dead Itachi kept up with CS2 Sasuke? No, he used Amy and firestyle ninjutsu the entire battle. No Taijutsu or blitzing was done, it was a pure Genjutsu and Ninjutsu battle. Keeping up with someone means going all out blitzing, which Itachi did not do. Meaning he did not 'keep up' with CS2 Sasuke.

Madara said he held back. Meaning if he used full power MS he would have killed Sasuke, like he nearly did to Kakashi. He used MS Genjutsu once in that battle, and it was a relatively weak MS, considering Sasuke was barely effected by it.

You don't randomly increase your chakra cap 5 fold in 2 years, he used MS full power on Kakashi, and was drained completely.

Shinobi killer
02-12-2010, 11:53 PM
Guys and girls, the answer is obvious!!!
Itachi>Jiraya
Itachi>Orochimaru
Itachi>Sasuke from that
Orochimaru=Jiraya>Sasuke...

[Shikamaru]
02-12-2010, 11:54 PM
Dude, are you kidding me?

I said it three times, He didn't 'keep up' with CS2 Sasuke.

All he did was spam MS Genjutsu and Amy.

Sasuke used Ninjutsu the entire time, the only time he attempted to blitz was when he was under Genjutsu, which won't happen in this battle, considering Sasuke now has MS to negate Itachi's.

Keeping up literally means using your capped speed, clashing at full power with the intent to kill. Itachi stood back the entire fight and spammed Amy. He didn't 'keep up' with anyone.

321zigzag1
02-12-2010, 11:56 PM
;2442416']You say KN4 is at most transonic, when in fact Itachi has not shown anything to be considered transonic.

A half-dead Itachi kept up with CS2 Sasuke? No, he used Amy and firestyle ninjutsu the entire battle. No Taijutsu or blitzing was done, it was a pure Genjutsu and Ninjutsu battle. Keeping up with someone means going all out blitzing, which Itachi did not do. Meaning he did not 'keep up' with CS2 Sasuke.

Madara said he held back. Meaning if he used full power MS he would have killed Sasuke, like he nearly did to Kakashi. He used MS Genjutsu once in that battle, and it was a relatively weak MS, considering Sasuke was barely effected by it.

You don't randomly increase your chakra cap 5 fold in 2 years, he used MS full power on Kakashi, and was drained completely.

So the fact Itachi well reacted to CS1 Sasuke and CS2 Sasuke and regular Sasuke throughout the battle barring genjutsu means nothing?
CS1 Sasuke attacked Itachi with chidori and Itach well evaded there. Shuriken exchange? Itachi matches Sasuke's movements?

Also I noticed you didn't answer my earlier post.

Concession accepted.

Nyruss
02-12-2010, 11:58 PM
Keeping up literally means using your capped speed, clashing at full power with the intent to kill

THen we need a new term that means "Wasn't using capped speed, nor full power, with the intent to let Sasuke win, but still managed to annihilate Sasuke with ease"

[Shikamaru]
02-12-2010, 11:59 PM
Evasion of point.
Itachi had no reason to blitz plus why are you evading?
We aren't talking about Itachi blitzing.
You claimed Sasuke can blitz Itachi which we are discussing.

Also again you have failed to explain why Sasuke during the non genjutsu part of the fight couldn't blitz a half dead Itachi at all.


Where is Nikushimi when you need him.
Couldn't blitz?

He didn't attempt to, meaning you can't assume he wouldn't be able to.

Once again, you're degrading his base movement by saying 'he couldn't keep up with a half-dead blind Itachi'.

Which in actuality, Itachi didn't attempt to blitz, or dodge any blitzes by Sasuke. He stood back the entire battle and spammed MS, showing no impressive speed feats at all.

Kuromaki
02-13-2010, 12:00 AM
;2442416']You say KN4 is at most transonic, when in fact Itachi has not shown anything to be considered transonic. Proof?

A half-dead Itachi kept up with CS2 Sasuke? No, he used Amy and firestyle ninjutsu the entire battle. No Taijutsu or blitzing was done, it was a pure Genjutsu and Ninjutsu battle. Keeping up with someone means going all out blitzing, which Itachi did not do. Meaning he did not 'keep up' with CS2 Sasuke. He was doing fairly well against him anyways, despite holding back, and being half dead.

Not to mention the Shuriken spam in which he was able to keep up with his movements.

Madara said he held back. Meaning if he used full power MS he would have killed Sasuke, like he nearly did to Kakashi. He used MS Genjutsu once in that battle, and it was a relatively weak MS, considering Sasuke was barely effected by it.

You don't randomly increase your chakra cap 5 fold in 2 years, he used MS full power on Kakashi, and was drained completely. Itachi can't improve in 2 years?

He didn't look very drained to me.
Replies in blue

Anyways I gotta go so.

[Shikamaru]
02-13-2010, 12:00 AM
THen we need a new term that means "Wasn't using capped speed, nor full power, with the intent to let Sasuke win, but still managed to annihilate Sasuke with ease"
Answer this question.

Has Itachi shown the speed to dodge Killer Bee?

Sasuke has, has Itachi? No.

Nyruss
02-13-2010, 12:02 AM
He didn't attempt to, meaning you can't assume he wouldn't be able to.



So why are you?


Once again, you're degrading his base movement by saying 'he couldn't keep up with a half-dead blind Itachi'.


No we're not. You can claim Sasuke is light speed for all we care. That would only mean that Itahci is faster than light.

Has Itachi shown the speed to dodge Killer Bee?

No but he's shown the speed to easily dodge Sasuke while half-dead, nearly blind and holding back, and if he can dodge Sasuke, he can dodge Killer Bee

[Shikamaru]
02-13-2010, 12:03 AM
The only speed feat Itachi showed in the entire battle was Shuriken spamming, which with Sharingan should be relatively easy to deflect.

Itachi didn't show the ability to dodge a speed blitz by Sasuke, simply because he stood back the entire battle spamming MS.

To assume Itachi can keep up with CS2 Sasuke is nonsense, there was no clashing or movement comparisons at all.

Sure, Itachi was holding back. That doesn't mean he automatically is faster then Sasuke because he didn't use his full power MS.

321zigzag1
02-13-2010, 12:03 AM
;2442450']Couldn't blitz?

He didn't attempt to, meaning you can't assume he wouldn't be able to.

Once again, you're degrading his base movement by saying 'he couldn't keep up with a half-dead blind Itachi'.

Which in actuality, Itachi didn't attempt to blitz, or dodge any blitzes by Sasuke. He stood back the entire battle and spammed MS, showing no impressive speed feats at all.

Wow just wow. Sasuke was bloodlusted. Why wouldn't he if had the chance?

Before Tsukiyomi Sasuke and Itachi did a shuriken exchange and Itachi well reacted there.

After Tsukiyomi Sasuke used chidori on Itachi who jumped to avoid a fireball. Yet Itachi evaded that one too.

I find it little ironic that you who boasts the importance of manga feats keep ignoring that Itachi wasn't trying to at all because he had no reason too. Anyway regardless....

So the fact Itachi kept up wtih Shuriken exchange and dodged chidori means nothing. Ok

And no dude, no one is powerscaling Itachi's speed here.

Nyruss
02-13-2010, 12:04 AM
This is turning into another Orochimaru vs Kimimaro. I petition a lock before Shikamaru's rampant trolling destroys what little intelligence we have left.

[Shikamaru]
02-13-2010, 12:04 AM
So why are you?



No we're not. You can claim Sasuke is light speed for all we care. That would only mean that Itahci is faster than light.



No but he's shown the speed to easily dodge Sasuke while half-dead, nearly blind and holding back, and if he can dodge Sasuke, he can dodge Killer Bee
Ok, for the last time.

Let me make this clear.

Tell me a point in the battle where Itachi actually dodged a blitz from Sasuke, or 'kept up with him'.

All you're doing is spamming the same thing over and over again. You make absolutely no sense, Itachi has never shown any speed feats to be able to keep up with Sasuke, in that battle, or anywhere in the series.

I'll put twenty on the fact you can't name a point in the battle where he actually dodged a full out speed blitz by Sasuke in CS2.

I'll also put twenty on the fact you spam 'he kept up with CS2 sasuke while half dead' again. Which in actuality, he stood back the entire time spamming Amy and fire ninjutsu.

Nyruss
02-13-2010, 12:05 AM
Tell me a point in the battle where Itachi actually dodged a blitz from Sasuke, or 'kept up with him'.

The entire fight. Literally any point in it.


All you're doing is spamming the same thing over and over again


If at first you don't succeed.


Itachi has never shown any speed feats to be able to keep up with Sasuke, in that battle, or anywhere in the series


Except for the part where he easily demolished Sasuke while half dead, nearly blind and holding back.

You've earned your twenty. Twenty cusswords aimed at you. Cusswords that I can't use. :)

[Shikamaru]
02-13-2010, 12:07 AM
This is turning into another Orochimaru vs Kimimaro. I petition a lock before Shikamaru's rampant trolling destroys what little intelligence we have left.
Trolling?

You make no sense.

You have no speed feats that would even compare to Sasuke's base movement.

Your entire argument is Itachi held back, when all he did was use MS the entire time. No speed comparisons were made at all during the battle.

-Rep for the disrespect. Don't call me an idiot, kid.

The Immortal Watch Dog
02-13-2010, 12:08 AM
quite and outstanding level of bias i see in favor of sasuke

What's stopping jiraiya from ripping the boys face off?

[Shikamaru]
02-13-2010, 12:09 AM
The entire fight. Literally any point in it.



If at first you don't succeed.



Except for the part where he easily demolished Sasuke while half dead, nearly blind and holding back.

You've earned your twenty. Twenty cusswords aimed at you. Cusswords that I can't use. :)
At any point?

Are you kidding me?

He stood back rambling about how he wanted Sasuke's eyes. The only time he moved was to dodge Sasuke's ninjutsu from afar or to use Amy. There was absolutely no speed comparisons during the entire battle.

What are you talking about man? At any point? Your point is illogical.

321zigzag1
02-13-2010, 12:10 AM
Itachi had to have fast enough movement to use shuriken exchange. He also dodged Chidori while in the air after he jumped to dodge Sasuke's fireball.

I see no counter nor I was responded to.

I am starting to see a pattern here.

Nyruss
02-13-2010, 12:10 AM
-Rep for the disrespect. Don't call me an idiot, kid.

I never once called you an idiot. I think I may have called you a retard at some point, I know I've called you a troll, but never an idiot.

-rep for being a retard.

[Shikamaru]
02-13-2010, 12:12 AM
Itachi had to have fast enough movement to use shuriken exchange. He also dodged Chidori while in the air after he jumped to dodge Sasuke's fireball.

I see no counter nor I was responded to.

I am starting to see a pattern here.
Shuriken exchange?

Shurikens don't move at the speed of Killer Bee, which Sasuke has dodged.

With Sharingan, both of them can dodge any weapon thrown with the human arm.

Dodged Chidori? No, he didn't. He was impaled on the ceiling.

[Shikamaru]
02-13-2010, 12:14 AM
I never once called you an idiot. I think I may have called you a retard at some point, I know I've called you a troll, but never an idiot.

-rep for being a retard.
Your point is invalid.

You have no evidence Itachi can keep up with Sasuke.

Your entire arguement is he kept up with CS2 Sasuke, which in actuality, is much slower then current Sasuke.

He didn't keep up with him, they didn't exchange any movement, as I said for the past hour, it was a pure Ninjutsu/Genjutsu battle.

Itachi stood back spamming MS, and did not show any impressive speed feats.

Once again, Itachi has not shown the speed to be anywhere near that of dodging attacks by KN4 Killer Bee.

321zigzag1
02-13-2010, 12:15 AM
;2442528']Shuriken exchange?

Shurikens don't move at the speed of Killer Bee, which Sasuke has dodged.

With Sharingan, both of them can dodge any weapon thrown with the human arm.

Dodged Chidori? No, he didn't. He was impaled on the ceiling.

We aren't talking about Killerbee.
I have a question for you. Do you believe Sasuke can move faster than he can throw?

Did you forget Lee in Part 1 saying its useless to predict if your own body can't keep up? Itachi kept up in movements. Its not hard to grasp. Why is this difficult?

Yes he did, Itachi broke out of the ceiling.

Nyruss
02-13-2010, 12:16 AM
I don't have a point to be invalid but if I did have one it would be.

I'm glad you admit it.

You have no evidence Itachi can keep up with Sasuke.

Except for all those that have already been pointed outl.

[Shikamaru]
02-13-2010, 12:19 AM
We aren't talking about Killerbee.
I have a question for you. Do you believe Sasuke can move faster than he can throw?

Did you forget Lee in Part 1 saying its useless to predict if your own body can't keep up? Itachi kept up in movements. Its not hard to grasp. Why is this difficult?

Yes he did, Itachi broke out of the ceiling.
Yes, Sasuke can move faster then he can throw. Feet > Arm

So basically what you're saying is Sasuke is considered Super sonic, having dodged a speed blitz by KN4 killer bee later in the series.

You're saying Itachi is Super Sonic? Lmao. That's funny in many aspects.

[Shikamaru]
02-13-2010, 12:21 AM
I'm glad you admit it.



Except for all those that have already been pointed outl.
What have you pointed out?

Please, enlighten me.

The only speed feats that have been pointed out were dodging a Chidori by Sasuke on a ceiling while he was under Genjutsu.

That and a shuriken barrage which was purely wasteful. Considering base movement is much different then that of throwing ability.

That's your argument? Find a new one.

321zigzag1
02-13-2010, 12:27 AM
;2442563']Yes, Sasuke can move faster then he can throw. Feet > Arm

So basically what you're saying is Sasuke is considered Super sonic, having dodged a speed blitz by KN4 killer bee later in the series.

You're saying Itachi is Super Sonic? Lmao. That's funny in many aspects.

So people can move faster than they can throw? On other words Baseball pitchers who can throw up to 90mph should be able to move 100 mph speed. Thats your logic?

Omg will you quit evading the point? Is that what you do when you can't counter at all? Itachi's movements reacted well to Sasuke's during the shuriken exchange and when they had a brief taijutsu scuffle right before Tsukiyomi.

We aren't talking about that. Its irrelevent here.

Not to mention the chidori dodging wasn't a genjutsu.

[Shikamaru]
02-13-2010, 12:30 AM
So people can move faster than they can throw? On other words Baseball pitchers who can throw up to 90mph should be able to move 100 mph speed. Thats your logic?

Omg will you quit evading the point? Is that what you do when you can't counter at all? Itachi's movements reacted well to Sasuke's during the shuriken exchange and when they had a brief taijutsu scuffle right before Tsukiyomi.

We aren't talking about that. Its irrelevent here.

Not to mention the chidori dodging wasn't a genjutsu.
Are you serious?

You think Sasuke can throw faster then the speed of sound? Are you on drugs?

Pitchers are human, the humans in this anime have been shown to move hypersonic speeds.

You're comparing Sasuke to a pitcher?

Your basis on base speed is deflecting and dodging Shuriken barrages?

Are you serious? That's your best speed feat for Itachi? Dodging Shurikens?

Once again, Sasuke has improved severely since then. Even though that doesn't make much of a difference, considering your best feat is a pure insult to the human basis of logic.

Dodging a single Chidori doesn't make him completely immune to Sasuke's movement. And it surely doesn't make him faster then Sasuke, if that's what you're implying.

Dodging Chidori < Dodging Killer Bee KN6 Blitz.

321zigzag1
02-13-2010, 12:39 AM
;2442595']Are you serious?

You think Sasuke can throw faster then the speed of sound? Are you on drugs?

Pitchers are human, the humans in this anime have been shown to move hypersonic speeds.

You're comparing Sasuke to a pitcher?

Your basis on base speed is deflecting and dodging Shuriken barrages?

Are you serious? That's your best speed feat for Itachi? Dodging Shurikens?

Once again, Sasuke has improved severely since then. Even though that doesn't make much of a difference, considering your best feat is a pure insult to the human basis of logic.

Dodging a single Chidori doesn't make him completely immune to Sasuke's movement. And it surely doesn't make him faster then Sasuke, if that's what you're implying.

Dodging Chidori < Dodging Killer Bee KN6 Blitz.

*sigh*
We aren't discussing whether Sasuke can move faster than sound. Whether he can or not is irrelevent to this thread.

In general humans throw speed > movement speed
Sasuke is a human no? With superhuman feats. Unless I got this backwards which would you please kindly tell me.

Not just shuriken Itachi evading chidori as well. The thing is Itachi well reacted ot Sasuke's throw speed at a very close distance. That is something significant.

Reaction and movement to keep up thats what I am focusing on here.

There is not indication Sasuke improved so much in speed since fight with Itachi except in MS hax. He lost CS2 for example. I am not degrading logic here at all since when have I done so? Look, sorry for going overboard but seriously which brings to my next point.

I am not trying to prove Itachi is faster than Sasuke that for another debate. What I am trying to prove is that Sasuke can't blitz Itachi at all which is your obvious made up claim which has no basis in the manga at all.

[Shikamaru]
02-13-2010, 12:48 AM
*sigh*
We aren't discussing whether Sasuke can move faster than sound. Whether he can or not is irrelevent to this thread.

In general humans throw speed > movement speed
Sasuke is a human no? With superhuman feats. Unless I got this backwards which would you please kindly tell me.

Not just shuriken Itachi evading chidori as well. The thing is Itachi well reacted ot Sasuke's throw speed at a very close distance. That is something significant.

Reaction and movement to keep up thats what I am focusing on here.

There is not indication Sasuke improved so much in speed since fight with Itachi except in MS hax. He lost CS2 for example. I am not degrading logic here at all since when have I done so? Look, sorry for going overboard but seriously which brings to my next point.

I am not trying to prove Itachi is faster than Sasuke that for another debate. What I am trying to prove is that Sasuke can't blitz Itachi at all which is your obvious made up claim which has no basis in the manga at all.
In general? You cannot compare normal basis of the human anatomy to naruto characters, It's proven leg strength is far stronger then that of arm strength. Basically, if you could throw a ball with your feet, it would move faster then 90 mph. Feet movement is faster then arm movement, I can move my legs faster then my arms, if you can't, there is something seriously wrong with you.

Basically, just because he deflected Shurikens doesn't mean he can defeat someone who dodges supersonic speed blitzes.

The bottom line is Sasuke could kill Jiraiya, and move on to double team Itachi with Orochimaru.

The only way Itachi is killing Orochimaru is with MS Genjutsu, which completely drains him based on the Kakashi battle. Which he said himself to Kisame, he needed to retreat because he was wiped. This didn't occur in the Sasuke battle because he held back, which Madara stated. If he had used his full power MS, Itachi would have most likely been wiped out.

I don't think either of them can throw Shurikens at the speed of supersonic. If they could, they would basically be able to solo 90% of Narutouniverse with basic ninja tools.

I'm not wanking Sasuke, I do believe however that keeping up with Shuriken movement is not a valid point for dodging a current-sasuke speed blitz, which has been shown to keep up with Killer Bee, who's considered supersonic.

My point.

Sasuke Reaction/Movement > Itachi Reaction/Movement

I do however despise the fact that 4 members are debating against me at once, I'm just trying to get across the point that Sasuke has shown better speed feats. And that Itachi would never be able to dodge a KN4 Killer Bee blitz.

Steven
02-13-2010, 08:11 AM
;2442640']In general? You cannot compare normal basis of the human anatomy to naruto characters, It's proven leg strength is far stronger then that of arm strength. Basically, if you could throw a ball with your feet, it would move faster then 90 mph. Feet movement is faster then arm movement, I can move my legs faster then my arms, if you can't, there is something seriously wrong with you.

Basically, just because he deflected Shurikens doesn't mean he can defeat someone who dodges supersonic speed blitzes.

The bottom line is Sasuke could kill Jiraiya, and move on to double team Itachi with Orochimaru.

The only way Itachi is killing Orochimaru is with MS Genjutsu, which completely drains him based on the Kakashi battle. Which he said himself to Kisame, he needed to retreat because he was wiped. This didn't occur in the Sasuke battle because he held back, which Madara stated. If he had used his full power MS, Itachi would have most likely been wiped out.

I don't think either of them can throw Shurikens at the speed of supersonic. If they could, they would basically be able to solo 90% of Narutouniverse with basic ninja tools.

I'm not wanking Sasuke, I do believe however that keeping up with Shuriken movement is not a valid point for dodging a current-sasuke speed blitz, which has been shown to keep up with Killer Bee, who's considered supersonic.

My point.

Sasuke Reaction/Movement > Itachi Reaction/Movement

I do however despise the fact that 4 members are debating against me at once, I'm just trying to get across the point that Sasuke has shown better speed feats. And that Itachi would never be able to dodge a KN4 Killer Bee blitz.

It was stated Itachi wasnt avoiding attack he could of with no problem.
Itachi has great speed then Sasuke.

Itachi 5
Sasuke 4.5

If Itachi was fighting for real in the fight, he would of been way to much for sasuke.

321zigzag1
02-13-2010, 10:01 AM
;2442640']In general? You cannot compare normal basis of the human anatomy to naruto characters, It's proven leg strength is far stronger then that of arm strength. Basically, if you could throw a ball with your feet, it would move faster then 90 mph. Feet movement is faster then arm movement, I can move my legs faster then my arms, if you can't, there is something seriously wrong with you.

They are human. Hence based comparison. Superhuman means proportionally greater than human of all levels. That includes arm and leg strength in general.
Hmmm proof? I have yet to hear peak humans kicking 90mph.

Anyway I brought up baseball pitchers as a reference point. And we aren't talking about throwing or kicking your feet here. Hence, I don't even know where you got that from. Where did you get that fact?

;2442640']Basically, just because he deflected Shurikens doesn't mean he can defeat someone who dodges supersonic speed blitzes..

So in other words you are discounting that Itachi was able to react and keep in movement with bloodlusted Sasuke. And after the shuriken exchange they did clash for another taijutsu briefly where Sasuke even said wow fast seal speed. Itachi easily kept up there.


;2442640']The only way Itachi is killing Orochimaru is with MS Genjutsu, which completely drains him based on the Kakashi battle. Which he said himself to Kisame, he needed to retreat because he was wiped. This didn't occur in the Sasuke battle because he held back, which Madara stated. If he had used his full power MS, Itachi would have most likely been wiped out.



;2442640']I don't think either of them can throw Shurikens at the speed of supersonic. If they could, they would basically be able to solo 90% of Narutouniverse with basic ninja tools.

Sage Users would have the greatest throw speed. Sasuke and Itachi can already solo 90% of the narutoverse one on one with their base skills. Regardless it moves supersonic or what. Its not a news flash at all, don't make it like it is.

;2442640']I'm not wanking Sasuke, I do believe however that keeping up with Shuriken movement is not a valid point for dodging a current-sasuke speed blitz, which has been shown to keep up with Killer Bee, who's considered supersonic.

Sasuke has always been considered a low top tier speedster at least. There is no proof he has improved in speed either. He just always been that fast.

;2442640']My point.

Sasuke Reaction/Movement > Itachi Reaction/Movement.

I asked for proof yet in fact I was the one who cited things, yet strangely you haven't brought up anything at all except Sasuke blitzes because he showed faster than eye movement which is a rather weak argument because faster than eye is partially relative to the opponent's viewpoint. Itachi also did the same thing against Kurenai.

You haven't showed Sasuke can.

;2442640'] I do however despise the fact that 4 members are debating against me at once, I'm just trying to get across the point that Sasuke has shown better speed feats. And that Itachi would never be able to dodge a KN4 Killer Bee blitz.

Because none of us has seen even extreme sasuke fans such as in other forums, like NF which has a lot of sasuke fans and sasuke tards, they have never argued for speed feats of sasuke like that in that manner, nor do they believe it.

The point is Sasuke never showed better than half dead itachi. Stop thinking that Itachi was MS spamming and useing long range jutsu when they did scuffle close range here and there.

Abigail
02-14-2010, 07:00 AM
This is turning into another Orochimaru vs Kimimaro. I petition a lock before Shikamaru's rampant trolling destroys what little intelligence we have left.
I second this.

My God.

321zigzag1
02-14-2010, 12:15 PM
I second this.

My God.

I was surprised to see that [Shikamaru] argued movement speed > throw speed.

And one would think its the other way around.

kokojojo
02-14-2010, 03:00 PM
u guys have to remember the laws of physics doesnt apply here. and there is no evidence as to how fast itachi can move since from the beginning of his battle with sasuke up til sasuke broke the tsukiyomi, it was all genjutsu. all of it, if u dont believe reread the manga or rewatch the anime.

Syaoran =]
02-14-2010, 03:04 PM
sasuke would get pwned!

321zigzag1
02-14-2010, 03:05 PM
u guys have to remember the laws of physics doesnt apply here. and there is no evidence as to how fast itachi can move since from the beginning of his battle with sasuke up til sasuke broke the tsukiyomi, it was all genjutsu. all of it, if u dont believe reread the manga or rewatch the anime.

Like what?

Did you read that fight?
Shuriken exchange and Itachi forming a Crow Clone and such was not a genjutsu.

So the fact Itachi was keeping up and reacting to Sasuke while half dead and sick means nothing?

e710
02-14-2010, 03:11 PM
if everyone is healthy then itachi cauld solo most of oro and kill sasuke then jiraya comes in to kill oro

kokojojo
02-14-2010, 03:17 PM
im gonna rewatch it right now just to make you happy, but im 90 percent sure it was all genjutsu

321zigzag1
02-14-2010, 03:23 PM
im gonna rewatch it right now just to make you happy, but im 90 percent sure it was all genjutsu

It started as a genjutsu.

Then after Itachi and Sasuke had a talk.

They did an actual shuriken exhange and clash and clone and after the crow clone dispersion Itachi used Tsukiyomi.

You can see there are the shuriken on the floor.

e710
02-14-2010, 03:25 PM
didnt zetsu say itachi cauld have dodged like half of sasuke"s attacks if were talking about speed and dodging

321zigzag1
02-14-2010, 03:33 PM
didnt zetsu say itachi cauld have dodged like half of sasuke"s attacks if were talking about speed and dodging

Oh yes thats right. Zetsu did say that the fully healthy Itachi should be fine.

I can't believe none of us got that.

+reps for reminder.

kokojojo
02-14-2010, 03:34 PM
It started as a genjutsu.

Then after Itachi and Sasuke had a talk.

They did an actual shuriken exhange and clash and clone and after the crow clone dispersion Itachi used Tsukiyomi.

You can see there are the shuriken on the floor.
kinda hate to say it but ur right, it was after the clone was destroyed that itachi used tsukiyomi

kokojojo
02-14-2010, 04:54 PM
but wut i cant help but wonder is why didnt the sky turn red and everything else turn black like when he normally uses tsukiyomi? was he holding back?

321zigzag1
02-14-2010, 05:00 PM
but wut i cant help but wonder is why didnt the sky turn red and everything else turn black like when he normally uses tsukiyomi? was he holding back?

Who knows?

But we know Itachi wasn't trying to win that fight at his half dead strength either at the entire time.

kokojojo
02-14-2010, 05:19 PM
so i think its safe to say jiraiya and itachi win altho this cud be a close battle since all these guys are deezed