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View Full Version : Thoughts on the Danzo and Madara Connection


mrsticky005
01-19-2010, 12:08 PM
When Madara meets up with Danzo before the Sasuke vs Danzo fight he
says to Danzo that the last time they had met was during the "Uchiha Incident" this could mean several things. I think it was death of Shisui
at Nakano Shrine (which is most likely nearby Nakano River.)


Here's what I think happened.


Madara attacked the village using Nine Tails. He was stopped by the 4th Hokage. Later Danzo figured out that Madara was still alive and therefore
responsible for the Nine Tails attack. He probably found this out from Itachi
(or Itachi found it out from Danzo.) Having been weakened by the 4th Hokage (and the 1st) Madara could not fight Danzo (or Itachi) so Madara resorted to making a deal with Danzo to keep Danzo from talking.
That deal was for each of them to take one of Shisui's eyes, blame it on
Itachi. Eliminate the Uchiha Clan and also blame it on Itachi.
Madara has returned to face Danzo and make sure he keeps his mouth
shut on the Shisui Eye deal and that Madara used Nine Tails.

3littlepigs
01-19-2010, 02:27 PM
First, if it was true why would Madara care if Danzou talks about "Shisui's eye"? I mean if he already has Shisui's eye what difference does it make wheather people find out about it or not? Madara is an Uchiha so him having a sharingan is no surprise and if he didn't mind showing up before the Kages to tell them he was still alive and what his plan is, I really don't see the importance of people knowing about Shisui's eye.

That is of course if it were true but I just don't think it is. As far as we know Minato couldn't hurt Madara, the only thing he was able to do was take the Kyuubi from him. Also if like you said Danzou met with Madara after that battle then at the time Danzou wouldn't have had all his sharingans (so no Izanagi) ... I doubt Madara couldn't get away from him if he had wanted to. And if they did make an agreement then, then they both killed Shisui and somehow Itachi awakened his MS and just for the sake of lying he told Sasuke he killed Shisui? :|

ShikamaruGenius
01-19-2010, 02:58 PM
Nha itachi did Kill Shisui. There is no other way He could activate is MS.. BUT! HE surely did this on danzo order which is was benific for both of them.As to see about, Did Madara really need Shisui Eyes? The "uchiha incident" can possibly be the uchiha massacre which Madara was behind this too.. There is a Possibility that Madara got Shuisui eyes too but one thing is sure. Itachi did Kill him ON danzo and madara tell him about how to gain the MS. Anyway, he was about to wipe out the whole clan! All he needed is to kill his bestfriend (shisui) to gain the MS. He just kill him before the massacre to be able to Kill all the other Uchiha..

Anyway, I'm sure soon we gonna know what's happened after the uchiha massacre. cause Itachi talked with danzo after and ordered to don't touch Sasuke. I'm sure we gonna see the flashback of the discussion with them and probably madara too.

mrsticky005
01-19-2010, 02:59 PM
First, if it was true why would Madara care if Danzou talks about "Shisui's eye"? I mean if he already has Shisui's eye what difference does it make wheather people find out about it or not? Madara is an Uchiha so him having a sharingan is no surprise and if he didn't mind showing up before the Kages to tell them he was still alive and what his plan is, I really don't see the importance of people knowing about Shisui's eye.

That is of course if it were true but I just don't think it is. As far as we know Minato couldn't hurt Madara, the only thing he was able to do was take the Kyuubi from him. Also if like you said Danzou met with Madara after that battle then at the time Danzou wouldn't have had all his sharingans (so no Izanagi) ... I doubt Madara couldn't get away from him if he had wanted to. And if they did make an agreement then, then they both killed Shisui and somehow Itachi awakened his MS and just for the sake of lying he told Sasuke he killed Shisui? :|

Itachi killed Shisui but was forced to by Danzo and Madara because
they wanted Shisui's eyes. Danzo didn't have the eyes at the time.

Shisui's second eye matters because that's how Yagura of the Hidden Mist was controlled.

Ettipio1
01-19-2010, 03:01 PM
It's difficult to say exactly. What i believed happened is that Madara chose to use izanagi in his fight against Senju Hashirama and lost an eye. He was then weakened in his fight with Minato Namikaze, losing another sharingan, and realized that he wasnt powerful enough to oppose Konoha any longer. He decided he would side with Danzou and plan the Uchiha slaughter so that he can gain one eye from Shisui and Danzou the other. So now he only has his right eye which is less powerful than his previous two mangekyou sharingans.

ShikamaruGenius
01-19-2010, 03:01 PM
I don't think he was forced to do it but did it on his own. Itachi could had killed Danzo at that time and Danzo was afraid of him.

mrsticky005
01-19-2010, 03:06 PM
I don't think he was forced to do it but did it on his own. Itachi could had killed Danzo at that time and Danzo was afraid of him.


How was he forced?


Simple.

Threaten to have The Foundation kill Sasuke.
Even if Itachi killed Danzo he couldn't kill the entire Foundation.

ShikamaruGenius
01-19-2010, 03:14 PM
Nhaa. I think the fact of not killing sasuke wasn't in the plan at first. And when Itachi leave Sasuke after the massacre. Itachi,Danzo and probably madara had a chat. For sure. Itachi didn't said to danzo to don't touch Sasuke and went kill all the uchiha. That part wasnt planned at all in the master plan.

mrsticky005
01-19-2010, 03:23 PM
Nhaa. I think the fact of not killing sasuke wasn't in the plan at first. And when Itachi leave Sasuke after the massacre. Itachi,Danzo and probably madara had a chat. For sure. Itachi didn't said to danzo to don't touch Sasuke and went kill all the uchiha. That part wasnt planned at all in the master plan.


Hm. Perhaps.

Well I still find it hard to believe that Itachi killed Shisui just for the heck of it. I really think Itachi was forced into killing Shisui.

I need to make a revised Ultimate Uchiha Theory but I'm just too lazy.

yondaime
01-19-2010, 04:40 PM
I agree with you that Itachi didn't kill Shisui just for the heck of it. I think Danzo forced him to AND he did not want the Uchiha to make a successful rebellion and take over the village.

Wooster
01-19-2010, 04:58 PM
Hm. Perhaps.

Well I still find it hard to believe that Itachi killed Shisui just for the heck of it. I really think Itachi was forced into killing Shisui.

I need to make a revised Ultimate Uchiha Theory but I'm just too lazy.
Well at least according to Madara's story, Itachi made a deal that he would kill the Uchiha clan and Madara would leave Konoha alone. Killing Shisui could be part of the plan. However, Madara also states that only Itachi knew of his existence.

So if Madara's telling the truth Danzo didn't know of Madara's existence, yet. Madara also said he didn't cause the nined-tailed fox attack, and I find that hard to believe. So in other words, your general theory could still be right.

Chapter 400 if you wondering where this is.

3littlepigs
01-19-2010, 11:43 PM
Itachi killed Shisui but was forced to by Danzo and Madara because
they wanted Shisui's eyes. Danzo didn't have the eyes at the time.

Shisui's second eye matters because that's how Yagura of the Hidden Mist was controlled.
What is it with you trying to prove Itachi was forced to kill Shisui? :p lol if I remember correctly this isn't the 1st time you've posted a theory about it.

Why would Madara want Shisui's eye? he had/has EMS so a regular sharingan just doesn't seem that big of a temptation to me...now if Shisui had MS I might think differently...and well if he did get it for some reason why would it matter if everyone knew? he's not Danzou! He's an Uchiha (and a traitor who also didn't mind taking his brother's eyes if I migh add) so it wouldn't surprise anyone at this point if he has 1) a sharingan 2) if he killed another Uchiha to get it.
How was he forced?


Simple.

Threaten to have The Foundation kill Sasuke.
Even if Itachi killed Danzo he couldn't kill the entire Foundation.
First, Danzou had no idea that Itachi's weak spot was Sasuke! I bet not even Itachi himself knew that until the night of the massacre when he couldn't kill Sasuke. So how could Madara and Danzou know that before he left Sasuke alive and begged the 3rd for his life?
Well at least according to Madara's story, Itachi made a deal that he would kill the Uchiha clan and Madara would leave Konoha alone. Killing Shisui could be part of the plan. However, Madara also states that only Itachi knew of his existence.

So if Madara's telling the truth Danzo didn't know of Madara's existence, yet. Madara also said he didn't cause the nined-tailed fox attack, and I find that hard to believe. So in other words, your general theory could still be right.

Chapter 400 if you wondering where this is.
We know for a fact Madara lied to Sasuke when he said he wasn't responsible for the Kyuubi attack 16 yrs ago as both Itachi and Minato confirmed it. Of course Shisui's death was part of the plan! That's what I've been saying all along! lol Madara became Itachi's teacher so obviously he told him how to get MS..Itachi had to kill Shisui and I think the reason is pretty obvious. :)

3littlepigs
01-19-2010, 11:48 PM
Well I still find it hard to believe that Itachi killed Shisui just for the heck of it. I really think Itachi was forced into killing Shisui.

:shock: just for the heck of it?! He had to if he was ever going to complete his mission and protect Konoha. I know Itachi's power was amazing and he was a genius but he wouldn't have been able to survive the massacre just with a regular sharingan. He needed MS and Shisui needed to die for him to get it. I'm sure he didn't want to kill Shisui but then again I don't think he wanted to kill his mom, dad, and "lover" either and yet he did. He was forced by the circumstances not by someone....

Ockinga
01-20-2010, 01:25 AM
Tweak the theory slightly. Itachi killed Shisui then Danzou took the eye. I seem to be in the minority when I say that Madara still has a sharingan in each eye. Killing shisui is how he got the mangekyo. I believe he tells saskue this.

valtreck
01-20-2010, 09:27 AM
i agree with you Ockinga

mrsticky005
01-20-2010, 11:39 AM
The very fact Danzo has Shisui's eye suggests that he was involved in his death.
Sure he could of just randomly come along and say "Oh. He's dead. Might as well
take his eye." But I really doubt that.

3littlepigs
01-20-2010, 12:31 PM
The very fact Danzo has Shisui's eye suggests that he was involved in his death.
Sure he could of just randomly come along and say "Oh. He's dead. Might as well
take his eye." But I really doubt that.
But he also has Hashirama's DNA and yet he didn't have anything to with his death....

mrsticky005
01-20-2010, 02:33 PM
But he also has Hashirama's DNA and yet he didn't have anything to with his death....

Perhaps.
I just don't think Kishimoto is going to have Shisui's other eye go to waste.

3littlepigs
01-20-2010, 10:18 PM
Perhaps.
I just don't think Kishimoto is going to have Shisui's other eye go to waste.
So far Itachi's eyes seems a greater waste to me...:| anyway anything can happen especially since Kishi's obsessed with the sharingan.

Final Valley
01-20-2010, 10:24 PM
Sweet idea, I agree... it sounds like a possible understanding of it. I hope it's explained.

I was surprised to find out that Danzo had a Sharingan!

mrsticky005
01-20-2010, 10:50 PM
So far Itachi's eyes seems a greater waste to me...:| anyway anything can happen especially since Kishi's obsessed with the sharingan.


That has been partially explained.

Madara: Hey Sasuke you want Itachi's eyes?
Sasuke: No.
Madara: Dang.

Though there will be probably be more on that.

3littlepigs
01-21-2010, 10:11 AM
That has been partially explained.

Madara: Hey Sasuke you want Itachi's eyes?
Sasuke: No.
Madara: Dang.

Though there will be probably be more on that.
Yeah, that's what I meant with "greater waste" so far Sasuke doesn't want them and Madara hasn't used them. They seem more valuable to me than Shisui's eyes for example since they had MS.

mrsticky005
01-21-2010, 10:30 AM
Yeah, that's what I meant with "greater waste" so far Sasuke doesn't want them and Madara hasn't used them. They seem more valuable to me than Shisui's eyes for example since they had MS.


Well you could consider it as Sasuke "honoring" his brother by not stealing
his brother's eyeballs. But Shisui already had one eyeball stolen so it seems
like both might as well be taken. The best candidate is Madara

3littlepigs
01-21-2010, 11:05 PM
Well you could consider it as Sasuke "honoring" his brother by not stealing
his brother's eyeballs. But Shisui already had one eyeball stolen so it seems
like both might as well be taken. The best candidate is Madara
lol Now that's just mean and cold...and honestly everything Sasuke's doing is the opposite of "honoring" his brother so I doubt one more thing would make that much of a difference. Madara's the best candidate for what? Taking Itachi's eyes? but why? I mean he already has EMS....

mrsticky005
01-21-2010, 11:26 PM
lol Now that's just mean and cold...and honestly everything Sasuke's doing is the opposite of "honoring" his brother so I doubt one more thing would make that much of a difference. Madara's the best candidate for what? Taking Itachi's eyes? but why? I mean he already has EMS....


Well Sasuke from the looks of it is honoring Itachi in his own twisted and morbid way. Hopefully he'll realize that he's really disrespecting his brother.

Madara's the best candidate to have Shisui's other eye.

I don't believe Madara still has EMS at least not in working order.
If Madara had EMS you'd think he used it for his plans. But he's not.
So why not? I think he either doesn't have it or can't use it right now.

So he has to use Shisui's instead.

3littlepigs
01-21-2010, 11:36 PM
Well Sasuke from the looks of it is honoring Itachi in his own twisted and morbid way. Hopefully he'll realize that he's really disrespecting his brother.

Madara's the best candidate to have Shisui's other eye.

I don't believe Madara still has EMS at least not in working order.
If Madara had EMS you'd think he used it for his plans. But he's not.
So why not? I think he either doesn't have it or can't use it right now.

So he has to use Shisui's instead.
Yeah, hopefully he'll wake up soon enough....he just needs someone to kick his butt for real.

Ok I agree there has to be a reason why he hasn't used EMS but it doesn't necessarily mean that he can't use his regular sharingan at all...I mean that's what he's been using so far.

mrsticky005
01-21-2010, 11:59 PM
Yeah, hopefully he'll wake up soon enough....he just needs someone to kick his butt for real.

Ok I agree there has to be a reason why he hasn't used EMS but it doesn't necessarily mean that he can't use his regular sharingan at all...I mean that's what he's been using so far.


My guess is that the regular sharnigan he is using...is Shisui's.

Wooster
01-22-2010, 07:52 AM
My guess is that the regular sharnigan he is using...is Shisui's.
I have pointed this out in another thread, but it should help bolster your theory.

When Madara fights the First Hokage, there is a close-up of Madara's face. He has the EMS in his left eye, but his right eye is covered with his hair. However, there is alot of blood leaking from his right eye, so it very well could have been damaged.

If this is the case, Madara would need to replace his right eye, and that very well could have been Shisui eye. We also know Madara very good convincing others to follow his plans, I wonder why?

3littlepigs
01-22-2010, 09:22 AM
I have pointed this out in another thread, but it should help bolster your theory.

When Madara fights the First Hokage, there is a close-up of Madara's face. He has the EMS in his left eye, but his right eye is covered with his hair. However, there is alot of blood leaking from his right eye, so it very well could have been damaged.

If this is the case, Madara would need to replace his right eye, and that very well could have been Shisui eye. We also know Madara very good convincing others to follow his plans, I wonder why?
I replied to this on your thread but I couldn't find that image...or maybe it's the same one but I only see blood coming out of his mouth not his eye.

Some people are just good at convincing others to follow them...(lol look at our presidents) it doesn't mean he has a sharingan that would allow him to control how everyone thinks. Besides he used different "bait" for each person...like Kakuzu was all about money, Pain thought he would achieve peace, Sasuke...well he's just easy to manipulate, etc...they already have reasons to do what they do, Madara just pushes them a little bit more so they become pawns.

Wooster
01-22-2010, 09:51 AM
I replied to this on your thread but I couldn't find that image...or maybe it's the same one but I only see blood coming out of his mouth not his eye.

Some people are just good at convincing others to follow them...(lol look at our presidents) it doesn't mean he has a sharingan that would allow him to control how everyone thinks. Besides he used different "bait" for each person...like Kakuzu was all about money, Pain thought he would achieve peace, Sasuke...well he's just easy to manipulate, etc...they already have reasons to do what they do, Madara just pushes them a little bit more so they become pawns.
I have gone into the image in the other thread.

Certainly, it doesn't necessarily have to be becasue of Shisui's Sharingan. I am not touching politics with a ten foot pole, but leaders like Hitler and Napoleon where able to convinve masses of people to follow them and commit atrocities they might otherwise never do.

mrsticky005
01-22-2010, 12:49 PM
I have gone into the image in the other thread.

Certainly, it doesn't necessarily have to be becasue of Shisui's Sharingan. I am not touching politics with a ten foot pole, but leaders like Hitler and Napoleon where able to convinve masses of people to follow them and commit atrocities they might otherwise never do.


With the case of Hitler it helped quite a bit that Germany was still feeling the
effect of having lost the first world war.

otacon
01-22-2010, 01:11 PM
Sasuke is not going to have a choice in taking Itachi's eyes pretty soon; heck, his eyes were already starting to blur after his fight with Killer Bee, and he has used MS ALOT since then. Kishi has not shown it yet, or maybe Sasuke is too determined at the moment to care, but the Sauce is and will go completely blind. Sasuke taking Itachi's eyes and gaining EMS is inebitable. We all know it is going to happen eventually, and probably sooner than later

Wooster
01-22-2010, 01:16 PM
With the case of Hitler it helped quite a bit that Germany was still feeling the
effect of having lost the first world war.
No doubt, and France was devasted by the French Revolution and the Bloody Terror. Hilter and Napoleon used these events. And, trying to get this back to Naruto, Madara used Sasuke feelings about Uchiha Massacre to use him.

Hey, the analogy here is pretty good, good job everyone!

mrsticky005
01-22-2010, 01:53 PM
I hope we actually see the Nakano Shrine event

mrsticky005
01-22-2010, 01:54 PM
Sasuke is not going to have a choice in taking Itachi's eyes pretty soon; heck, his eyes were already starting to blur after his fight with Killer Bee, and he has used MS ALOT since then. Kishi has not shown it yet, or maybe Sasuke is too determined at the moment to care, but the Sauce is and will go completely blind. Sasuke taking Itachi's eyes and gaining EMS is inebitable. We all know it is going to happen eventually, and probably sooner than later


The real question though is if it's part of Itachi's master plan to beat Madara.
Yes, I do think Itachi has a master plan to beat Madara. It WILL work.

3littlepigs
01-22-2010, 07:06 PM
I have gone into the image in the other thread.

Certainly, it doesn't necessarily have to be becasue of Shisui's Sharingan. I am not touching politics with a ten foot pole, but leaders like Hitler and Napoleon where able to convinve masses of people to follow them and commit atrocities they might otherwise never do.
Definitely....I just don't think Madara's "controlling" anyone...manipulating yes but at the end he's not forcing anyone. :)
Sasuke is not going to have a choice in taking Itachi's eyes pretty soon; heck, his eyes were already starting to blur after his fight with Killer Bee, and he has used MS ALOT since then. Kishi has not shown it yet, or maybe Sasuke is too determined at the moment to care, but the Sauce is and will go completely blind. Sasuke taking Itachi's eyes and gaining EMS is inebitable. We all know it is going to happen eventually, and probably sooner than later
Yeah, I replied to you on another thread about this but although I don't doubt that it'll happen soon I'm honestly going to be pissed off :mad: when he does. First he needs to grow up and then he can use his brother's eyes in a way that would make Itachi proud...I honestly don't doubt that Itachi planned on Sasuke getting EMS.
The real question though is if it's part of Itachi's master plan to beat Madara.
Yes, I do think Itachi has a master plan to beat Madara. It WILL work.
I'm not sure it's a "master plan" to defeat Madara but Itachi's ability to plan for the future never ceases to surprise me :D

mrsticky005
01-22-2010, 07:44 PM
Definitely....I just don't think Madara's "controlling" anyone...manipulating yes but at the end he's not forcing anyone. :)

I'm not sure if he's controlling Sasuke or just manipulating him.
If Madara has Shisui's eyes then he is controlling him.

Yeah, I replied to you on another thread about this but although I don't doubt that it'll happen soon I'm honestly going to be pissed off :mad: when he does. First he needs to grow up and then he can use his brother's eyes in a way that would make Itachi proud...I honestly don't doubt that Itachi planned on Sasuke getting EMS.

Yeah I think Itachi planned for Sasuke to take his eyes since Itachi
seems to be the opposite of Madara (Madara stole his brother's eyes
so Itachi instead gives them up.)

I'm not sure it's a "master plan" to defeat Madara but Itachi's ability to plan for the future never ceases to surprise me :D

It's a master plan to beat Madara. Itachi's plan didn't end with Amaterasu.

Wooster
01-23-2010, 07:01 PM
It's a master plan to beat Madara. Itachi's plan didn't end with Amaterasu.
We know at least Itachi still has the Naruto card, and that's a pretty good foundation for any plan.

3littlepigs
01-23-2010, 07:39 PM
It's a master plan to beat Madara. Itachi's plan didn't end with Amaterasu.
Ok then let's call it "master plan"
We know at least Itachi still has the Naruto card, and that's a pretty good foundation for any plan.
Yeah but if it's something he left to even out the fight between Naruto and Sasuke then if Naruto fails to save Sasuke I don't think that whatever Itachi left would be of any concern to Madara.:|

mrsticky005
01-23-2010, 08:35 PM
Ok then let's call it "master plan"

Madara WILL be defeated.

The only "question" is whether Sasuke can be turned back good.

I say he can.

Yeah but if it's something he left to even out the fight between Naruto and Sasuke then if Naruto fails to save Sasuke I don't think that whatever Itachi left would be of any concern to Madara.:|

Madara considered Itachi "an eyesore" but he's much more a threat than that. Itachi is like...Obi-Wan Kenobi. We have no idea what he's talking
about but at the end of the show we finally get it.

Wooster
01-23-2010, 08:42 PM
Madara considered Itachi "an eyesore" but he's much more a threat than that. Itachi is like...Obi-Wan Kenobi. We have no idea what he's talking
about but at the end of the show we finally get it.
But who's R2D2? Help me Itachi-Wan Shinobi, you're my only hope.

mrsticky005
01-23-2010, 11:35 PM
But who's R2D2? Help me Itachi-Wan Shinobi, you're my only hope.

Hmm R2D2...I'm not sure. Who looks like a futuristic trash can?

3littlepigs
01-24-2010, 06:51 PM
Madara considered Itachi "an eyesore" but he's much more a threat than that. Itachi is like...Obi-Wan Kenobi. We have no idea what he's talking
about but at the end of the show we finally get it.
It's funny you're comparing Itachi with Obi since they're both my favorite characters from each series :). I know, I get it and I agree with you that Itachi planned even further ahead than we can imagine...I was kind of making fun of calling it a "master plan" nothing else.

mrsticky005
01-24-2010, 07:12 PM
It's funny you're comparing Itachi with Obi since they're both my favorite characters from each series :). I know, I get it and I agree with you that Itachi planned even further ahead than we can imagine...I was kind of making fun of calling it a "master plan" nothing else.


Well whenever we find out what Itachi's gift was I'm sure it will be a major clue.