Naruto

[Err]

I don't see Naruto as a person with much skill. I still see him as the kid ninja that likes to go in head first and hopes he hits something in Shippuden and in the latest manga. He's too dumb to learn things himself without help. In the recent episode where Naruto is fighting Tobi and Naruto goes right through him with his Rasengain. The scene where Kakashi asks to verify if that's what really happened to him, he says: "ummmmm, uhhhhh" and has this retarded look on his face. Why did Kishi want to make him that dumb?

Point is, I don't think Naruto is nearly as skilled as Sasuke (even with Sage Mode), I don't think he's smart enough to learn better skills, and would never win against Sasuke if Naruto wasn't in the name of the anime. All Naruto has going for him is stamina, because he's lacking in all other abilities. I don't see how people can put him at equal footing with Sasuke.

[Kuromaki]

Naruto may be dumb at times but he's proven he can make competent strategies. Definitely not Shikamaru level but they're not bad.

Naruto's shown good speed when he was able to keep up with Deva Path Pain for a while while gathering Sage chakra in their fight. His shadow clone spam could overwhelm many characters and with Kyubi chakra and Boss Toad summons he almost always has backup.

Naruto isn't that great in base but he's at least Jonin level. Sage Mode is what puts him in the higher tiers of Naruto characters because it gives him super speed, strength and durability; he was able to blitz Asura Path and save Tsunade, throw a several ton Rhino into the air and survive a fall on sharp rocks. Sage Mode Naruto is probably better than current Sasuke especially because of the boosts he gets and Boss Toads which could help him with Genjutsu and fighting.

[Inazuma]

Well, he has potential. He just needs to stop being a dumb jerk, well he isn't all the time, but he needs to get serious so he can actually learn...

[Kuromaki]

Well, he has potential. He just needs to stop being a dumb jerk, well he isn't all the time, but he needs to get serious so he can actually learn...
Naruto was sure serious when he wanted to learn Rasengan, Wind style and Sage Mode. And he did end up learning them.

[Inazuma]

Naruto was sure serious when he wanted to learn Rasengan, Wind style and Sage Mode. And he did end up learning them.

Yeah, I guess he just needs to set goals for himself, and you know how he never goes back on his word...

[3littlepigs]

I don't see Naruto as a person with much skill. I still see him as the kid ninja that likes to go in head first and hopes he hits something in Shippuden and in the latest manga. He's too dumb to learn things himself without help. In the recent episode where Naruto is fighting Tobi and Naruto goes right through him with his Rasengain. The scene where Kakashi asks to verify if that's what really happened to him, he says: "ummmmm, uhhhhh" and has this retarded look on his face. Why did Kishi want to make him that dumb?

Point is, I don't think Naruto is nearly as skilled as Sasuke (even with Sage Mode), I don't think he's smart enough to learn better skills, and would never win against Sasuke if Naruto wasn't in the name of the anime. All Naruto has going for him is stamina, because he's lacking in all other abilities. I don't see how people can put him at equal footing with Sasuke.

I would've agreed with you if you had said this BEFORE the fight with Pain. It amazes me that you can't see who Naruto is at the moment and that you're stuck with that impression of him and most of all it amazes me that you think Sasuke is way stronger/better than Naruto.

Where to begin? first of all Naruto
1) Grew a lot during the fight with Pain. He mastered Sage Mode which neither Jiraya nor Minato could master (especially Minato, a genius)
2) He actually listened to Ma and Pa, Katsuyo and worked amazingly well with all the summonings.
3) He used his head during the fight, an example would be when he let one of Pain's bodies absorb all his natural chakra turning him to stone instead of fighting him.
4) He took Kakashi's info to counter Deva path and his plan was precise which means he analyzed his opponent.
5) He perfected Rasenshuriken in Sage Mode on his own without any help.
6) He swallowed his pride, hate and revenge and decided not to kill Pain, why? because he thinks of others and not just himself.
7) He didn't pretend to have all the answers, but he was actually mature enough to admit he didn't even have one. Also, instead of giving into despair he decided to carry Jiraya's, Minato's, Nagato's, Yahiko's dreams on top od Sakura's promise and his own dream of being Hokage, so he's giving other people hope.
8) He rather let those Cloud ninjas kick his butt instead of seeing Sakura cry and instead of selling out his "friend".

Now for Sasuke...let's see:
1) Wasn't even able to kill Itachi on his own after how much he whined throughout the series.
2) Had to get Oro's curse mark to get stronger because he couldn't do it on his own and even then he was no match for Itachi.
2) Manipulated all the time, Oro, Madara, Itachi.
3) Oro would've taken his body if Itachi hadn't killed him with Susano'o.
4) Had his sharingan on but didn't notice Killer Bee fooling him with his jutsu.
3) Attacked the Kage summit and started killing everyone in his path just because.
4) Doesn't know the meaning of teamwork, and he's too proud to thank Suigetsu and Juugo for saving him TWICE.
5) Fights Raikage (an expert in taijutsu and lighting element) with taijutsu and chidori...goes to show you how much he analyzes his opponent.

6) Dropped the pillars on top of everyone including:

Suigetsu and Juugo
Samurai who have nothing to do with his revenge, so he has no regard for life.
7) Used Susano'o and Amaterasu too soon and when it wasn't really necessary.
8) Sasuke would've died either when Raikage attacked or when Mizukage attacked, only reason he's alive is because Suigetsu, Juugo, Madara and Zetsu all intervened.
9) He wasn't even able to get Danzou on his own, Madara got Danzou for him.
10) During the fight with Danzou he allows Danzou to trap him in a genjutsu and to get behind him, all while he has his MS on.

I could go on but I'm not going to. Just to be clear most of the time when Anime/manga characters seem extremely dumb is because they're used by the author to explain things to viewers/readers. Like when Naruto needed Kakashi to explain everything step by step during his rasenshuriken training, it's because some people NEED those explanations. Also after re-reading my list twice I'm more convinced than ever as to who's the stupidest and weakest one between Sasuke and Naruto. :)

[Err]

Sasuke has revenge issues, that's a given. But revenge is so much cooler than dumb issues. I will say that when Sasuke gets hot-headed he gets reckless, and with a person with so much power, it can be very interesting to watch him to loose. Much like Naruto when he goes semi-kyuubi (1-9 tails), which by the way, also helps him train and helps him summon toads and has used it in battle without regard to anyone else (remind you of anyone?). He hardly ever has a plan and runs straight into battle without analyzing anything. He's slow, dumb, and won't let go of a friend when he has turned evil (which could also be added together with dumb). Sage Mode gives him nothing more than amazing strength, I don't remember Jiraya being super fast in Sage Mode.

Kishi should of introduced brief explanations on the trainers own accord. Meaning, he should of kept Naruto at least some-what smart while having the trainers explain how things work in their own words. I still think Naruto is a weak kid, he couldn't stand up to Sasuke at all. If Naruto couldn't get out of Itachi's gengetsu when Itachi's power was at 30%, what makes you think he can get out of Sasuke's?

[-TobiReturns-]

I would've agreed with you if you had said this BEFORE the fight with Pain. It amazes me that you can't see who Naruto is at the moment and that you're stuck with that impression of him and most of all it amazes me that you think Sasuke is way stronger/better than Naruto.

Where to begin? first of all Naruto
1) Grew a lot during the fight with Pain. He mastered Sage Mode which neither Jiraya nor Minato could master (especially Minato, a genius)
2) He actually listened to Ma and Pa, Katsuyo and worked amazingly well with all the summonings.
3) He used his head during the fight, an example would be when he let one of Pain's bodies absorb all his natural chakra turning him to stone instead of fighting him.
4) He took Kakashi's info to counter Deva path and his plan was precise which means he analyzed his opponent.
5) He perfected Rasenshuriken in Sage Mode on his own without any help.
6) He swallowed his pride, hate and revenge and decided not to kill Pain, why? because he thinks of others and not just himself.
7) He didn't pretend to have all the answers, but he was actually mature enough to admit he didn't even have one. Also, instead of giving into despair he decided to carry Jiraya's, Minato's, Nagato's, Yahiko's dreams on top od Sakura's promise and his own dream of being Hokage, so he's giving other people hope.
8) He rather let those Cloud ninjas kick his butt instead of seeing Sakura cry and instead of selling out his "friend".

Now for Sasuke...let's see:
1) Wasn't even able to kill Itachi on his own after how much he whined throughout the series.
2) Had to get Oro's curse mark to get stronger because he couldn't do it on his own and even then he was no match for Itachi.
2) Manipulated all the time, Oro, Madara, Itachi.
3) Oro would've taken his body if Itachi hadn't killed him with Susano'o.
4) Had his sharingan on but didn't notice Killer Bee fooling him with his jutsu.
3) Attacked the Kage summit and started killing everyone in his path just because.
4) Doesn't know the meaning of teamwork, and he's too proud to thank Suigetsu and Juugo for saving him TWICE.
5) Fights Raikage (an expert in taijutsu and lighting element) with taijutsu and chidori...goes to show you how much he analyzes his opponent.

6) Dropped the pillars on top of everyone including:

Suigetsu and Juugo
Samurai who have nothing to do with his revenge, so he has no regard for life.

7) Used Susano'o and Amaterasu too soon and when it wasn't really necessary.
8) Sasuke would've died either when Raikage attacked or when Mizukage attacked, only reason he's alive is because Suigetsu, Juugo, Madara and Zetsu all intervened.
9) He wasn't even able to get Danzou on his own, Madara got Danzou for him.
10) During the fight with Danzou he allows Danzou to trap him in a genjutsu and to get behind him, all while he has his MS on.

I could go on but I'm not going to. Just to be clear most of the time when Anime/manga characters seem extremely dumb is because they're used by the author to explain things to viewers/readers. Like when Naruto needed Kakashi to explain everything step by step during his rasenshuriken training, it's because some people NEED those explanations. Also after re-reading my list twice I'm more convinced than ever as to who's the stupidest and weakest one between Sasuke and Naruto. :)





Actually I think he didn't kill Nagato because Nagato made him realize that killing is not the only way to make peace if im correct.

[-TobiReturns-]

Behind all of this sasuke has a purpose which is revenge for Itachi .... Naruto never has a purpose and he still doesnt realize how life ends.

[3littlepigs]

Sasuke has revenge issues, that's a given. But revenge is so much cooler than dumb issues. I will say that when Sasuke gets hot-headed he gets reckless, and with a person with so much power, it can be very interesting to watch him to loose. Much like Naruto when he goes semi-kyuubi (1-9 tails), which by the way, also helps him train and helps him summon toads and has used it in battle without regard to anyone else (remind you of anyone?). He hardly ever has a plan and runs straight into battle without analyzing anything. He's slow, dumb, and won't let go of a friend when he has turned evil (which could also be added together with dumb). Sage Mode gives him nothing more than amazing strength, I don't remember Jiraya being super fast in Sage Mode.

Kishi should of introduced brief explanations on the trainers own accord. Meaning, he should of kept Naruto at least some-what smart while having the trainers explain how things work in their own words. I still think Naruto is a weak kid, he couldn't stand up to Sasuke at all. If Naruto couldn't get out of Itachi's gengetsu when Itachi's power was at 30%, what makes you think he can get out of Sasuke's?
Then just say Sasuke is more interesting than Naruto in your opinion. You're saying Naruto's weaker only because you think he's boring and dumb but that's only your opinion. If you ask me I rather have a fool who knows who he is and doesn't give up just because of his luck than a fool who has the raw talent but is mentally and emotionally weak. Just like Naruto seems to frustrate you, Sasuke frustrates me.

Let's not compare Sasuke and Naruto based on their fights with Itachi because Itachi was in a whole other level. Itachi did trap Naruto with his genjutsu but didn't he also trap Sasuke in Tsukuyomi TWICE before he could break it? At least that Giant Rasengan hit the body Itachi was using for the jutsu, Sasuke didn't even touch Itachi with Kirin and not only that but he lost control over Oro after all that cool talk he gave him saying how he was an Uchiha and what not...he still had to be saved by Itachi. I agree Sasuke's genjutsu is the only thing that gives him an advantage over Naruto at this point...it's still one of Naruto's weaknesses, however didn't Sasuke just fall for Danzou's genjutsu? Sasuke has nothing compared to Naruto in analyzing a battle (the way he is now), he only underestimates everyone and relies to much on his sharingan. Naruto on the other hand is trying his best NOT to rely on the Kyuubi, yeah I know Naruto hurts people when he loses control to the Kyuubi but he didn't chose to have the bijuu put inside him, least of all the strongest bijuu (besides the Juubi). It wasn't like he left everyone who loved him to go in search of that power (sound familiar?), and at the beginning he didn't even know how he could hurt people by using the Kyuubi's chakra. Sasuke on the other hand was/is well aware of his actions when he used the curse mark and now when he uses Itachi's MS.

Naruto hasn't let go of Sasuke and IMO yeah it can be annoying but isn't Sasuke's revenge just as annoying? to you revenge seems cooler to me it's stupid. Naruto isn't slow especially when he uses the Kyuubi or SM, Jiraya didn't master SM completely so that's why he wasn't as fast but he was still fast. Remember him kicking that Pain body so fast Pain didn't even see it coming? and Naruto stopped Pain's summoning in a second not just with strenght but also SPEED.

Main characters are usually supposed to be role models, Naruto is special precisely because he started as being below average but he never gives up so I don't have a problem with him asking questions that might be obvious but to him they're not it just shows he's human (well in the story). Can you imagine Kakashi or even Yamato explaining everything out of the blue? I can't...especially Kakashi who's a "genius", why would he explain what he sees as obvious? Another example I don't know if you're familiar with Samurai X? there's always a secondary character that explains every little thing that happens in the fights...I'm not a samurai or a swordman, and I'm not Japanese either so sometimes the info is useful and it helps me understand the battle even more and I don't think those characters are stupid at all. :???:
Actually I think he didn't kill Nagato because Nagato made him realize that killing is not the only way to make peace if im correct.
No, Nagato kept arguing about who's pain was greatest and how they were both justified to want to kill, etc. Naruto did it to prove Jiraya's words can come true.
Behind all of this sasuke has a purpose which is revenge for Itachi .... Naruto never has a purpose and he still doesnt realize how life ends.
That's exactly the problem with him, it's always about him and no one else. When is it gonna end? when he kills Danzou? no, I bet you he'll want to kill the 2 elders as well. He always has someone to blame because he thinks he's the only one who has it as tough and no one in the world can understand him. Naruto has a purpose, at the beginning it was kind of stupid only wanting to be accepted and recognized. His purpose was kind of selfish but that's why I'm saying he changed after fighting Pain. Now his purpose is to find true peace, not just for himself, his friends or his village but for EVERYONE. That's bigger than him, it might be impossible to achieve but he's grown. What do you mean he doesn't know how life ends? He lost Jiraya and Kakashi (for a moment), two people he loves, then he finds out he has to make a decision regarding Sasuke. Do you know what Sasuke means to him? it makes me mad sometimes he's still after that idiot but for Naruto it's extremely painful to see what everyone keeps saying about Sasuke, then Sakura's decision as well. Not only that but during the fight with Pain he completely lost it emotionally, his whole idea of what's right and wrong was challenged...to me his purpose makes more sense than Sasuke's.

[Err]

No, Sasuke is much more skilled than Naruto, and therefore better than Naruto. Naruto does frustrate me. To me Naruto is this snotty little kid that is trigger happy, or in this anime, jutsu happy and runs in without really thinking hoping he hits something. The character development of him is spot on, but I couldn't care much for people without skill. Even Tenten has more skill than him. Let me point out some flaws in your reply:

1. Itachi was fighting Naruto at 30% of his power, when in reality he was fighting, what I can only explain at the time, a copy of Itachi. Not only that, Kakashi was helping Naruto fight him which is the only reason why his Rasengan hit. Sasuke might of taken a while to break the Tsukuyomi but he did break it which proves Sasuke is some where near the power of Itachi. So if Sasuke does it to Naruto, you can be sure that Naruto wouldn't break out of it without help. Easy win on Sasuke's part.

2. I'm almost certain you saw the fight between Deidara and Sasuke. Did you see how he outwitted Deidara in smarts and power? How he analyzed the battle and brought Deidara down and even escaped death by using a summoning and teleportation jutsu. Naruto would have never came up with an elaborate plan like that.

3. It is not certain whether Sasuke got caught up in Danzo's gengetsu since Karin couldn't sense one. As far as we know, Sasuke is winning.

4. Nothing gets in the way of Sasuke's revenge, so he's going to use whatever power necessary to kill his foes. Remember that he formed Taka on the consent of the people he recruited, he didn't force them to follow him and are free to leave whenever they want. If they want to stick by Sasuke after he let the pillars fall on them, though it's very mean, that's their choice. Note that Sasuke doesn't have the curse seal anymore, he can't use that power anymore. It's all him at this point.

5. Kishi should of made it clear how things work through people's perspective as the battle is going on. Just like they do it with Bleach.

[3littlepigs]

No, Sasuke is much more skilled than Naruto, and therefore better than Naruto. Naruto does frustrate me. To me Naruto is this snotty little kid that is trigger happy, or in this anime, jutsu happy and runs in without really thinking hoping he hits something. The character development of him is spot on, but I couldn't care much for people without skill. Even Tenten has more skill than him. Let me point out some flaws in your reply:

Just because you're more skilled than someone at something doesn't mean you're overall "better" or in this case "stronger" than that other person. I get it you prefer hate/negative feelings in a character instead of happy/optimistic characters, I have no problem with that but at this point in the manga Naruto doesn't go into a battle hoping to "just hit something" he analyzes the opponent and their strength. Sasuke on the other hand does rush into things...doesn't think before he acts at all. Proof is his fight with Killer Bee, his fight with Raikage, Mizukage and now his fight with Danzou. If Naruto mastering Sage Mode when neither Jiraya nor his father could doesn't take "skill" then I don't know what does. Sasuke didn't even work for Susano'o or Amaterasu and after 2 1/2 yrs of trying he couldn't even prove Itachi wrong and awaken MS oh but Kakashi did and he's not even a friggin' Uchiha!:roll:

By the way Tenten isn't even stronger than Sakura...and unless you're blind you should know Naruto is way stronger than Sakura.

1. Itachi was fighting Naruto at 30% of his power, when in reality he was fighting, what I can only explain at the time, a copy of Itachi. Not only that, Kakashi was helping Naruto fight him which is the only reason why his Rasengan hit. Sasuke might of taken a while to break the Tsukuyomi but he did break it which proves Sasuke is some where near the power of Itachi. So if Sasuke does it to Naruto, you can be sure that Naruto wouldn't break out of it without help. Easy win on Sasuke's part.

I know that Itachi was fighting with 30% (and my comment about the Rasengan hitting that body was mostly sarcastic) but Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi after being hit by it 2 times and he did it using the Curse Mark's help. That's not that different from Naruto fighting Itachi with Kakashi. Naruto had never fought Itachi before that unlike Sasuke who was his brother, so he knew Itachi, had been hit by Tsukuyomi so he had analyzed it and who's also an Uchiha. Oh and let's not forget the fact that Itachi was half dead by the time he used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke a third time.

2. I'm almost certain you saw the fight between Deidara and Sasuke. Did you see how he outwitted Deidara in smarts and power? How he analyzed the battle and brought Deidara down and even escaped death by using a summoning and teleportation jutsu. Naruto would have never came up with an elaborate plan like that.

Yes, I did see it. There wasn't much difference in their power if you ask me...Sasuke did use his sharingan well I'm not saying he didn't but he was also lucky Deidara used Earth style. Not only that but by the time Deidarara commited suicide (let's not forget Sasuke didn't kill him) they were both equally exhausted and it was only luck that Deidara went crazy thinking about Itachi and decided to kill himself.

You don't think Naruto getting rid of a whole bunch of bodies with the Rinnengan and especially Deva Path, or finding Nagato's location using Sage Mode is elaborate? We definitely have different understandings as to the meaning of that word.

3. It is not certain whether Sasuke got caught up in Danzo's gengetsu since Karin couldn't sense one. As far as we know, Sasuke is winning.

Ok so it seems like it's not genjutsu but he still hasn't been able to touch Danzou and Danzou has already seen Susano'o and Amaterasu and analyzed them really well. He even had the chance to confirm what he already knew about Susano'o...which means Sasuke's slow to react letting his opponent do that. Sasuke's winning? really how did you get to that conclusion...even Madara agreed with me on Sasuke's overuse of Susano'o and Amaterasu, he is not winning the fight at all.

4. Nothing gets in the way of Sasuke's revenge, so he's going to use whatever power necessary to kill his foes. Remember that he formed Taka on the consent of the people he recruited, he didn't force them to follow him and are free to leave whenever they want. If they want to stick by Sasuke after he let the pillars fall on them, though it's very mean, that's their choice. Note that Sasuke doesn't have the curse seal anymore, he can't use that power anymore. It's all him at this point.

I understand they follow him because they chose to when did I say otherwise? It doesn't change the fact that power is not the only thing you should take into account when judging someone's strength (well IMO) and Sasuke isn't even able to accept the fact that he would've died more than once if it hadn't been for Karin, Suigetsu and Juugo. When I pointed
out that Sasuke went in search of the Curse Mark and when I mentioned that he relied on it I was talking in past tense. I know Itachi did him an extra favor by taking that pest off his shoulders it doesn't change the fact that Sasuke didn't get stronger all on his own during those 2 1/2 yrs like say Sakura or Naruto. He had the Curse Mark and Kabuto giving him things to speed it all up.

5. Kishi should of made it clear how things work through people's perspective as the battle is going on. Just like they do it with Bleach.

I don't read/watch Bleach (yeah big surprise) so I can't compare the two series but since they're different authors you can't expect the same thing out of both series. That option wouldn't work in training since the character needs to know what he's training for or what the goal is, it's at those times that Naruto appears more dumb as he asks all these questions that are obvious to everyone else. In battles you do see Naruto analyzing (telling us all that info) in his mind...well most of the time anyway.

[Err]

No, Sasuke is much more skilled than Naruto, and therefore better than Naruto. Naruto does frustrate me. To me Naruto is this snotty little kid that is trigger happy, or in this anime, jutsu happy and runs in without really thinking hoping he hits something. The character development of him is spot on, but I couldn't care much for people without skill. Even Tenten has more skill than him. Let me point out some flaws in your reply:

Just because you're more skilled than someone at something doesn't mean you're overall "better" or in this case "stronger" than that other person. I get it you prefer hate/negative feelings in a character instead of happy/optimistic characters, I have no problem with that but at this point in the manga Naruto doesn't go into a battle hoping to "just hit something" he analyzes the opponent and their strength. Sasuke on the other hand does rush into things...doesn't think before he acts at all. Proof is his fight with Killer Bee, his fight with Raikage, Mizukage and now his fight with Danzou. If Naruto mastering Sage Mode when neither Jiraya nor his father could doesn't take "skill" then I don't know what does. Sasuke didn't even work for Susano'o or Amaterasu and after 2 1/2 yrs of trying he couldn't even prove Itachi wrong and awaken MS oh but Kakashi did and he's not even a friggin' Uchiha!

By the way Tenten isn't even stronger than Sakura...and unless you're blind you should know Naruto is way stronger than Sakura.

If you're skilled in battle (which is pretty much all you have to be skilled in, in the Naruto world) then you are set. This does make you a better and stronger person. Because if you are skilled in battle that makes for an awesome fight scene. I don't prefer the rebel kind of characters over characters like Naruto. I like characters that have skill. Gaara is one of my favorite characters because he knows how to manipulate sand to a high degree and attack with it. Which from a visual point of view, looks pretty damn sweet. Point is, when characters have skill, their better and stronger. I absolutely hate watching Naruto fight because I can be sure to expect the same boring things: Shadow Clones, Rasengan, Shurkin and yelling. I can also expect him to get hit a lot of times just trying to hit someone. You can clearly see the skill level in these fights, and yet he somehow wins the battles (Neji V Naruto, LOL). The only recent addition he has is Sage Mode, which to my surprise he can use well (maybe that's just the strength he gets from it). When I see a fight, I want to see skills, that's why, in my mind, I can never guess who is going to win (just like the Danzo V Sasuke fight). Naruto is only getting by because Kishi wants him to, they should dump the "Naruto" title and just go with "Sasuke" where Naruto can be the side-story.


1. Itachi was fighting Naruto at 30% of his power, when in reality he was fighting, what I can only explain at the time, a copy of Itachi. Not only that, Kakashi was helping Naruto fight him which is the only reason why his Rasengan hit. Sasuke might of taken a while to break the Tsukuyomi but he did break it which proves Sasuke is some where near the power of Itachi. So if Sasuke does it to Naruto, you can be sure that Naruto wouldn't break out of it without help. Easy win on Sasuke's part.

I know that Itachi was fighting with 30% (and my comment about the Rasengan hitting that body was mostly sarcastic) but Sasuke broke Tsukuyomi after being hit by it 2 times and he did it using the Curse Mark's help. That's not that different from Naruto fighting Itachi with Kakashi. Naruto had never fought Itachi before that unlike Sasuke who was his brother, so he knew Itachi, had been hit by Tsukuyomi so he had analyzed it and who's also an Uchiha. Oh and let's not forget the fact that Itachi was half dead by the time he used Tsukuyomi on Sasuke a third time.
Itachi and Naruto's skill are WAY too different to be compared. Itachi was the master of skill, which was painfully obvious when Kakashi AND Naruto couldn't take him down. If Kakashi was an Uchiha, I promise you, he would of been above Itachi's skill level, despite this fact, he gets along well with just one sharigan. Naruto wouldn't survive Itachi one on one. I was hoping in that scene where Itachi appears in front of Naruto in the forest that Itachi would knock him down a notch. It would of been so well deserved. I'm kind getting off topic here, but Naruto skill is no where near Sasuke's, Kakashi's, Gaara's or (half-dead) Itachi. He has a long way to go before he can go one on one with Sasuke.


2. I'm almost certain you saw the fight between Deidara and Sasuke. Did you see how he outwitted Deidara in smarts and power? How he analyzed the battle and brought Deidara down and even escaped death by using a summoning and teleportation jutsu. Naruto would have never came up with an elaborate plan like that.

Yes, I did see it. There wasn't much difference in their power if you ask me...Sasuke did use his sharingan well I'm not saying he didn't but he was also lucky Deidara used Earth style. Not only that but by the time Deidarara commited suicide (let's not forget Sasuke didn't kill him) they were both equally exhausted and it was only luck that Deidara went crazy thinking about Itachi and decided to kill himself.

You don't think Naruto getting rid of a whole bunch of bodies with the Rinnengan and especially Deva Path, or finding Nagato's location using Sage Mode is elaborate? We definitely have different understandings as to the meaning of that word.
What I mean by power is skill. Their justu's where amazing, and I for one, loved that fight scene. Deidara wanted to kill Sasuke just because he had a sharigan. Deidara's jealousy overwhelmed him and wanted to kill Sasuke out of spite so he blew himself up. If Sasuke had enough jutsu to summon a large snake AND teleport out of there then Sasuke had enough power to kill Deidara. Out all those dumb moments with Naruto, THAT was the only part I found witty about Naruto (It takes some guts to stab yourself for the better part of finding someone's location). But his other dumb moments do majorly ruin it for me.


3. It is not certain whether Sasuke got caught up in Danzo's gengetsu since Karin couldn't sense one. As far as we know, Sasuke is winning.

Ok so it seems like it's not genjutsu but he still hasn't been able to touch Danzou and Danzou has already seen Susano'o and Amaterasu and analyzed them really well. He even had the chance to confirm what he already knew about Susano'o...which means Sasuke's slow to react letting his opponent do that. Sasuke's winning? really how did you get to that conclusion...even Madara agreed with me on Sasuke's overuse of Susano'o and Amaterasu, he is not winning the fight at all.
He crushed Danzo, who for some unknown reason survives it. He cuts his arm off and then Itachi suddenly appears behind Danzo. I think Sasuke has the upper hand at the moment.


4. Nothing gets in the way of Sasuke's revenge, so he's going to use whatever power necessary to kill his foes. Remember that he formed Taka on the consent of the people he recruited, he didn't force them to follow him and are free to leave whenever they want. If they want to stick by Sasuke after he let the pillars fall on them, though it's very mean, that's their choice. Note that Sasuke doesn't have the curse seal anymore, he can't use that power anymore. It's all him at this point.

I understand they follow him because they chose to when did I say otherwise? It doesn't change the fact that power is not the only thing you should take into account when judging someone's strength (well IMO) and Sasuke isn't even able to accept the fact that he would've died more than once if it hadn't been for Karin, Suigetsu and Juugo. When I pointed
out that Sasuke went in search of the Curse Mark and when I mentioned that he relied on it I was talking in past tense. I know Itachi did him an extra favor by taking that pest off his shoulders it doesn't change the fact that Sasuke didn't get stronger all on his own during those 2 1/2 yrs like say Sakura or Naruto. He had the Curse Mark and Kabuto giving him things to speed it all up.
I was making a point when I stated that. I never said you said it about team Taka. Like I said, it was mean of Sasuke to let the pillars fall on his team mates after they saved his butt, but once his blood boils he turns into a cold machine. I agree he's loosing his cool, and he needs to rethink this strategy. He's acting like Naruto now, just jumping into battle head first without thinking.


5. Kishi should of made it clear how things work through people's perspective as the battle is going on. Just like they do it with Bleach.
I don't read/watch Bleach (yeah big surprise) so I can't compare the two series but since they're different authors you can't expect the same thing out of both series. That option wouldn't work in training since the character needs to know what he's training for or what the goal is, it's at those times that Naruto appears more dumb as he asks all these questions that are obvious to everyone else. In battles you do saee Naruto analyzing (telling us all that info) in his mind...well most of the time anyway.
You should watch Bleach, it isn't that bad.

[3littlepigs]

If you're skilled in battle (which is pretty much all you have to be skilled in, in the Naruto world) then you are set. This does make you a better and stronger person. Because if you are skilled in battle that makes for an awesome fight scene. I don't prefer the rebel kind of characters over characters like Naruto. I like characters that have skill. Gaara is one of my favorite characters because he knows how to manipulate sand to a high degree and attack with it. Which from a visual point of view, looks pretty damn sweet. Point is, when characters have skill, their better and stronger. I absolutely hate watching Naruto fight because I can be sure to expect the same boring things: Shadow Clones, Rasengan, Shurkin and yelling. I can also expect him to get hit a lot of times just trying to hit someone. You can clearly see the skill level in these fights, and yet he somehow wins the battles (Neji V Naruto, LOL). The only recent addition he has is Sage Mode, which to my surprise he can use well (maybe that's just the strength he gets from it). When I see a fight, I want to see skills, that's why, in my mind, I can never guess who is going to win (just like the Danzo V Sasuke fight). Naruto is only getting by because Kishi wants him to, they should dump the "Naruto" title and just go with "Sasuke" where Naruto can be the side-story.
I guess that's what it comes down to, we have different definitions as to what we consider being strong or just how we consider someone to be better or stronger than someone else. I agree in the Narutoverse strength and power are extremely important but just because your strength is greater than someone else doesn't make you a better person IMO. I judge them by their

Strength in power (jutsus)
Strategies (what good is it to have all the power in the world if you can't use it?)
Inner strength ( A shinobi should also be mentally and emotionally strong)
Value of things/ What they consider important (I can't stand people like Oro who only think of themselves and who have no regard for life at all.) (I also admire a shinobi who is capable of thinking of others and value others over himself, I believe that only makes them stronger)
Gaara (even when he was "evil") was good at fighting, it wasn't just the fact that he had power but he knew how to use it and that's why it was cool to watch him fight. The few times he completely lost it and started screaming because Sasuke hurt him or when he saw himself losing to Naruto he was just lame. You say Naruto fights are boring because you can predict what he'll do next but it's basically what happens to me when Sasuke fights. The only reason Sasuke vs Danzou is even entertaining is because I can't predict what Danzou will do next. Yes, Naruto uses Shadow Clones, Rasengan and shuriken but Sasuke's just the same using all his different variations of Chidori, Fire ball jutsu, Phoenix Flower Jutsu and normal ninja weaponry. That's not Naruto's or Sasuke's fault, it's Kishi's because he's too lazy to give them other jutsus. ;)
Oh and by the way I would say the one "just getting by because of favoritism" is Sasuke. He's Kishi's favorite character so to speak so he and Naruto both have that in common I guess.
Itachi and Naruto's skill are WAY too different to be compared. Itachi was the master of skill, which was painfully obvious when Kakashi AND Naruto couldn't take him down. If Kakashi was an Uchiha, I promise you, he would of been above Itachi's skill level, despite this fact, he gets along well with just one sharigan. Naruto wouldn't survive Itachi one on one. I was hoping in that scene where Itachi appears in front of Naruto in the forest that Itachi would knock him down a notch. It would of been so well deserved. I'm kind getting off topic here, but Naruto skill is no where near Sasuke's, Kakashi's, Gaara's or (half-dead) Itachi. He has a long way to go before he can go one on one with Sasuke.
I was not the one comparing Itachi to either Sasuke or Naruto, that's why I said it before that you shouldn't judge either Sasuke's or Naruto's strenghts based on their fights with Itachi. I was also not ditching Kakashi, he's my 2nd favorite character, I meant that if Kakashi could awaken his MS in only 2 1/2 yrs, Sasuke being an Uchiha should've been able to do the same if he was really that much stronger than Naruto.

Gaara was already beaten by Naruto...but Sasuke couldn't beat Gaara. Kakashi already said Naruto is stronger than him if we're talking just about power. Itachi we won't count because even Madara feared him. Since Part I Sasuke and Naruto have only met once, that one time Naruto was hurt because he had just used the Kyuubi against Oro, he was also trying to reason with Sasuke (so emotionally he was at a disadvantage) but even with those two things against him I admit Sasuke was just stonger. However I'm judging Naruto starting with his fight with Pain, and Sasuke with his fight with Killer Bee so it doesn't really count.

What I mean by power is skill. Their justu's where amazing, and I for one, loved that fight scene. Deidara wanted to kill Sasuke just because he had a sharigan. Deidara's jealousy overwhelmed him and wanted to kill Sasuke out of spite so he blew himself up. If Sasuke had enough jutsu to summon a large snake AND teleport out of there then Sasuke had enough power to kill Deidara. Out all those dumb moments with Naruto, THAT was the only part I found witty about Naruto (It takes some guts to stab yourself for the better part of finding someone's location). But his other dumb moments do majorly ruin it for me.
Sasuke had enough chakra to summon a large snake but he used Suigetsu to teleport to safety. Also if Deidara had enough stamina and chakra for that huge bomb I think they were even at that point...Deidara just gave Sasuke an easy way out since he commited Suicide. I enjoyed the fight as well but to me it was just pretty even, no major difference between the two if you take out Sasuke's sharingan but it's his kekkei genkai so can't do anything about that. :|

As for Naruto vs Pain, I really hated the part where he lost control to the Kyuubi because he was really trying on his own and I was so proud of him. But that was it, other than that I liked when he turned that body into stone by using Natural Energy, the way he mastered Rasenshuriken all on his own, when he stopped the summonings, when he used SM to sense everyone's chakra, when he finished Deva Path, found Nagato and finally when he made the decision NOT to kill Nagato. I won't say Naruto didn't get any help at all but he's come a long way from that kid who only said "I'll be Hokage someday" and "Believe it!", which has been my point all along in this discussion.

He crushed Danzo, who for some unknown reason survives it. He cuts his arm off and then Itachi suddenly appears behind Danzo. I think Sasuke has the upper hand at the moment.

But aren't you the one saying power is skill and that's how we define who's stronger and better? then Danzou is so far way stronger/better than Sasuke whatever methods/attacks he's using they're working and Sasuke's just wasting chakra by using Susano'o all along. Danzou hasn't died despite all of Sasuke's effort and you're saying Sasuke has the upper hand? that's just confusing to me...that would almost be like saying he had the upper hand against the Mizukage when clearly he did not. Sasuke was sure he only needed a partial Susano'o to get rid of Danzou, he was smiling too soon thinking it was over and heck it was only beginning that's what he gets for underestimating everyone.

You should watch Bleach, it isn't that bad.
The story just doesn't appeal to me...I know it's really popular though. I'm usually the same way when people tell me they don't read/watch Fullmetal Alchemist.;)