NEW Naruto Power List [Archive] - Naruto Discussion Forum

Kuromaki

11-25-2009, 01:26 PM

TBC's tier list inspired me to make this; it was good but I wanted MY view on it.

This is a list to give a general idea of how people rank in the Narutoverse. Do not use this as your only source in a debate because it won't be entirely accurate, I'll admit that now.

All Characters are judged mainly by their current feats in the Manga (not just because of what Kisame and Rocklee say mind you). Databook stats will not be used due to being outdated and inconsistent, and anime only feats won't be used either.

The default conditions for the matches in this thread go by current Battleground rules (http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58876). Other than that, all characters are able to fight at full potential. You might notice that there are separate placements for the same character, the reason being that their abilities totally change in their different forms, and that there's a lot of prep time needed to enter those forms (like Sage Mode).

This will have some wrong placements so if you want to move or add a character on the list, tell me and give me some good reasons.

Currently under reform.

Legendary
Kabuto Yakushi (With Prep Time for Edo Tensei)
Nagato/Six Paths of Pain
Naruto Uzumaki (8 tails)
Naruto Uzumaki (6 tails)
Naruto Uzumaki (Sage Mode)
Orochimaru (With Prep Time for Edo Tensei)
Killer Bee
Jiraiya (Sage Mode)
Kisame Hoshigaki
A
Sasuke Uchiha (Mangekyō Sharingan)
Kakashi Hatake
Itachi Uchiha
Naruto Uzumaki (4 tails)
Danzō Shimura
Might Guy
Naruto Uzumaki
Jiraiya
Orochimaru
Kakuzu

Kage+
Sasori
Sasuke Uchiha (Curse Mark)
Deidara
Shukaku
Gaara (with Shukaku)
Hiruzen Sarutobi
Konan
Kabuto Yakushi (With Orochimaru Absorbed)
Ōnoki
Kimimaro
Minato Namikaze
Chiyo
Mei Terumī

Jōnin-Low Kage
Hashirama Senju (Edo Tensei Zombie)
Sakon & Ukon
Kidomaru
Jūgo
Temari
Tsunade
Yamato/Tenzō
Darui
Suigetsu Hōzuki
Zabuza Momochi
Kabuto Yakushi
Hidan
Kurotsuchi
Asuma Sarutobi
Shino Aburame

Chūnin-Low Jōnin
Akatsuchi
Rock Lee
Kiba Inuzuka
Chōji Akimichi
Chōjūrō
Neji Hyūga
Kankurō
Shikamaru Nara
Tayuya
Jirōbō
Sai
Shizune
Torune
Sakura Haruno
Haku
Anko Mitarashi
Fū

Genin-Low Chūnin
Aoba Yamashiro
Hinata Hyūga
Dosu Kinuta
Zaku Abumi
Obito Uchiha
Kotetsu Hagane
Izumo Kamizuki
Tenten
Kakkō
Ao
Shigure
Misumi Tsurugi
Yoroi Akado
Konohamaru Sarutobi
Ino Yamanaka
Taiseki
Yashamaru
Karin
Kin Tsuchi

Jose

11-25-2009, 01:32 PM

:O I cant belive you put Hinata on the lowest level. Shame on you but the rest i pretty much agree.

narutoultra

11-25-2009, 01:33 PM

I thought there were multiple Neji vs Kabuto threads where Kabuto won?

Kuromaki

11-25-2009, 01:33 PM

:O I cant belive you put Hinata on the lowest level. Shame on you but the rest i pretty much agree.
Hinata hasn't shown many feats that show she can beat the characters in the upper tiers, that's why she's down there.
I thought there were multiple Neji vs Kabuto threads where Kabuto won?
I myself decided Kabuto would win, but I have to check those threads again.

Jose

11-25-2009, 01:37 PM

Hinata hasn't shown many feats that show she can beat the characters in the upper tiers, that's why she's down there.

I myself decided Kabuto would win, but I have to check those threads again.

Well i agree with you on that but i thought she would be someone where in the low chunin side.

Kuromaki

11-25-2009, 01:38 PM

Well i agree with you on that but i thought she would be someone where in the low chunin side.
She is on the low chunin level.

Jose

11-25-2009, 01:47 PM

She is on the low chunin level.

O yeah i guess i read that part to fast and only saw it said Genin. My Mistake.

icy-j

11-25-2009, 01:49 PM

Kuromaki

11-25-2009, 02:05 PM

Itachi can beat Kisame with only his present feats. Kisame has to fight with his eyes closed going by simply chakra presence, if he doesn't Tsukoyomi wins. Kisame then would have to dodge Amatersu without being to see it coming. He has no counter for Susano'o either, and he has never seen it, so he wouldn't even know what to expect. Itachi can get out of his bubble if he wants with some shadow clones.

Another thing would by Gai in 6 gates should be above base Sasuke with no MS or no curse mark. Gai can easily just speed blitz him in 6 gates not to mention how much strength he would have in 6 gates.

Konan should be above Zabuza, even debatable for her to be above Suigetsu, but I'll just stick with Zabuza. Papers can just easily swarm in the mist until they get to Zabuza and Zabuza can't really do anything to her. Water dragon takes a bit of prep and really can't even hit all her papers. Water prison is useless.

Neji can beat drunken fist lee with no gates. All that happens in when lee is drunk is just the fact he has increased dodge, and random moves. Still in his base speed and base strength. It also makes him more open with his random pass outs, and such. Neji should be able to handle base Lee, and 64 palms should be to hit him due to its speed.

Temari can beat Hidan, due to long range wind attacks and her summon. I don't see Hidan being able to cut Temari.

Kisame should be above KB, based on the recent feat of him destroying KB with little effort. Itachi should also be above KB, since Sasuke was able to pretty much keep up with him, and Itachi showed better speed feats in his fight with Sasuke. Not to mention what Amatersu did to KB and Sasuke didn't use Susano'o against KB. Same explanation for Itachi, if he fought Raikage. Not to mention Itachi could put KB and Raikage in gen.
Not sure about Kisame placement but Itachi should have a tough time in the water, Kisame knows Itachi well so it's likely that he'll pull out the water globe just to gain an advantage. For now I'm moving Kisame down.

Konan needs prep for her full paper form, in Chapter 368 it took some pages for her to turn into paper and Zabuza can use hidden mist on her, then she won't be able to see and he can just go around in the mist cutting her up. I do think that Konan probably needs higher placement but I'm not sure if she can beat Zabuza and Suigetsu.

KB and Raikage are pretty much immune to genjutsu, Bee can use the biju and Raikage shocks himself iirc. Susano'o shouldn't be a problem because KB and Raikage can dodge it, plus their speeds are comparable to Itachi's and they have more strength. I don't see how Itachi gets through Raiton Armor Level 2 or Bee's Tailed Beast Mode.

Ammy can be dodged by Raikage of course, while it can be possibly dodged by KB depending on the range, and Itachi can't spam it either. KB in full tailed beast mode used a Substitution.

deidara330

11-25-2009, 02:09 PM

Can't you just call it a tier list?

Kuromaki

11-25-2009, 02:11 PM

Can't you just call it a tier list?
I was going to, but I looked at the power list and put that word instead. Anyways I'll change it.

deidara330

11-25-2009, 02:12 PM

I was going to, but I looked at the power list and put that word instead. Anyways I'll change it.
Isn't that just kind of ripping off the name of TBC's list?

Kuromaki

11-25-2009, 02:14 PM

Isn't that just kind of ripping off the name of TBC's list?
My mistake.

That's why it says "new"

But I can't change it.

Konoha'sGreenThunder

11-25-2009, 02:14 PM

I think Shikaku might should be higher up. He is, after all, the Jonin Commander of Konoha, which is generally the strongest and highest ranking Jonin in the village, or at least one of them.

Kuromaki

11-25-2009, 02:16 PM

I think Shikaku might should be higher up. He is, after all, the Jonin Commander of Konoha, which is generally the strongest and highest ranking Jonin in the village, or at least one of them.
I'll move him above Jugo, but he hasn't shown many feats.

icy-j

11-25-2009, 02:18 PM

Not sure about Kisame placement but Itachi should have a tough time in the water, Kisame knows Itachi well so it's likely that he'll pull out the water globe just to gain an advantage. For now I'm moving Kisame down. Well Itachi also knows Kisame, it goes both ways. Itachi can get out of globe with some shadow clones. Kisame didn't show much on sensing other then just being able to sense KB's chakra.

Konan needs prep for her full paper form, in Chapter 368 it took some pages for her to turn into paper and Zabuza can use hidden mist on her, then she won't be able to see and he can just go around in the mist cutting her up. I do think that Konan probably needs higher placement but I'm not sure if she can beat Zabuza and Suigetsu. I don't know that is a lot of paper to cut up, and wouldn't they be silent since they are paper, and couldn't they just swarm the mist. I don't know, I can see your point though.

KB and Raikage are pretty much immune to genjutsu, Bee can use the biju and Raikage shocks himself iirc. Susano'o shouldn't be a problem because KB and Raikage can dodge it, plus their speeds are comparable to Itachi's and they have more strength. I don't see how Itachi gets through Raiton Armor Level 2 or Bee's Tailed Beast Mode.What about Tsukoyomi? Amatersu proved to be able to take out Raikage's arm with Raiton Armor. I also see your points here also. I was just going by since Sasuke was able to hold his own and hurt both of them, and Itachi has shown to have better gen, speed, Tai then him.

Ammy can be dodged by Raikage of course, while it can be possibly dodged by KB depending on the range, and Itachi can't spam it either. KB in full tailed beast mode used a Substitution. Yep, I agree with Raikage since he actually did dodge it, but I don't know if KB, but like you said range. Once again I am just going on how Sasuke stood up against them. I know Itachi can't spam it, but he has shown to be able to use it 3 times while sick and holding back, and he showed to be able to cover a pretty wide area with it.

Green.

Space Cowboy Sasori

11-25-2009, 02:21 PM

Orochimaru w/ Prep time > Nine tailed fox.

Kuromaki

11-25-2009, 02:28 PM

Oh and btw, the name of TBC's thread and my thread are some of the only similarities, this thread is much different from his, and it doesn't fully copy the name. I did mention his thread in my post though.
Not sure about Kisame placement but Itachi should have a tough time in the water, Kisame knows Itachi well so it's likely that he'll pull out the water globe just to gain an advantage. For now I'm moving Kisame down. Well Itachi also knows Kisame, it goes both ways. Itachi can get out of globe with some shadow clones. Kisame didn't show much on sensing other then just being able to sense KB's chakra. We also can't assume Kisame would still fight as good with his eye's close. How does Itachi get out of the globe with shadow clones?

Konan needs prep for her full paper form, in Chapter 368 it took some pages for her to turn into paper and Zabuza can use hidden mist on her, then she won't be able to see and he can just go around in the mist cutting her up. I do think that Konan probably needs higher placement but I'm not sure if she can beat Zabuza and Suigetsu. I don't know that is a lot of paper to cut up, and wouldn't they be silent since they are paper, and couldn't they just swarm the mist. I don't know, I can see your point though. They can swarm the mist yes, but Konan needs to turn into it to gain invulnerability.

KB and Raikage are pretty much immune to genjutsu, Bee can use the biju and Raikage shocks himself iirc. Susano'o shouldn't be a problem because KB and Raikage can dodge it, plus their speeds are comparable to Itachi's and they have more strength. I don't see how Itachi gets through Raiton Armor Level 2 or Bee's Tailed Beast Mode.What about Tsukoyomi? Amatersu proved to be able to take out Raikage's arm with Raiton Armor. I also see your points here also. I was just going by since Sasuke was able to hold his own and hurt both of them, and Itachi has shown to have better gen, speed, Tai then him. Sasuke has a more advanced Ammy and Raikage was still owning him, I'm not sure about Tsukuyomi but since Raikage is in general stronger than Itachi I put him up there. Raikage went through Sasuke's Enton shield which is why it even affected his arm in the first place, but he cut it off easily enough and only needed Shi to stop the bleeding.

Ammy can be dodged by Raikage of course, while it can be possibly dodged by KB depending on the range, and Itachi can't spam it either. KB in full tailed beast mode used a Substitution. Yep, I agree with Raikage since he actually did dodge it, but I don't know if KB, but like you said range. Once again I am just going on how Sasuke stood up against them. I know Itachi can't spam it, but he has shown to be able to use it 3 times while sick and holding back, and he showed to be able to cover a pretty wide area with it. Sasuke was being nearly stomped by Raikage and roflstomped by KB. Tailed beast forms give KB better speed and durability to increase his chances of surviving Ammy.

Green.
Blue

Yuuta

11-25-2009, 02:33 PM

yokokurama

11-25-2009, 02:36 PM

Fan of Minato

11-25-2009, 02:37 PM

Wouldn't Shika be above Choji? xD And probably above Kidomaru. Because didn't he defeat Hidan? And I would say Hidan is stronger than Kidomaru.....just saying..xD

EDIT: I would suggest moving Oro down as well. Even with prep for Edo tensei..the people he summon would be quite weak than their former selves. But I'm not sure on that one...

Vatanui AKA Pride

11-25-2009, 02:38 PM

It's a reasonable enough tier list.

Kuromaki

11-25-2009, 02:41 PM

There are so many things I'd like to say.
Hinata. You've never seen Hanabi fight. She was supposed to be stronger than Hinata in part 1, you don't know how she compares in part 2.
Shizune. She could beat Sai and Haku. It doesn't matter if she's in the ice mirros, her poison fog kills Haku when he transfers from mirror to mirror.
Konan. Could beat Zabuza. He uses his fog, she uses her paper mode. WHen he attacks, she splits and covers him and stabs him. She can avoid his water style by splitting into paper. Check the Akatsuki tier list for debates of Suigetsu and Jugo. Kimimaro has nothing to hurt her, except slice a few pieces of her paper which she easily replenishes. He can resist blanketing, for the most part, but her paper spears will wear him down. Yamato's got nothing on her, she can split and avoid his attacks, get to him and beat him. And Danzo did one move, Konan could easily survive it. Rock Lee still can't hurt her even in 8 gates mode.

Anyway, you don't have to change anything. I don't want to mess with his, you're intitled to your own opinion. I'm just going to pretend I didn't see it.
Hiashi said Hanabi was stronger than Hinata so I'm just going by his word, I may have to move Hinata up by one tier later.

About Shizune, her poison fog and senbon could probably beat Haku but how does she get through ink animal barrages?

I'm waiting till the Suigetsu/Jugo vs. Konan debates end until I move her up. Kimimaro on the other hand can just survive her attacks, which haven't been proven to be able to cut through something like his bones, and Kimimaro's shown better speed. Konan's full paper form also takes prep.

Yuuta

11-25-2009, 02:46 PM

Hiashi said Hanabi was stronger than Hinata so I'm just going by his word, I may have to move Hinata up by one tier later.

About Shizune, her poison fog and senbon could probably beat Haku but how does she get through ink animal barrages?

I'm waiting till the Suigetsu/Jugo vs. Konan debates end until I move her up. Kimimaro on the other hand can just survive her attacks, which haven't been proven to be able to cut through something like his bones, and Kimimaro's shown better speed. Konan's full paper form also takes prep.

Shizune's needles beat Sai's ink. He breathes any of her fog and he dies.

And so does Kimimaro's bones. He's got nothing to really hurt her, he'd be worn down.

Anyway, don't worry about my views. I won't input any more, I'm not messing with this.

icy-j

11-25-2009, 02:46 PM

Kuromaki

11-25-2009, 02:53 PM

I'm an Orochimaru fanboy, but being a fanboy doesn't biased my view of him. You need to move him down.
He got owned by Sasuke, Itachi, and would be owned by a number of other Akatsuki. He lacks striking power and wouldn't stand up to most of the others at Legendary level. Maybe with prep time he can summon dead bodies, but idk if even then he is at legendary status. I would say put him in the level just below. Cause arguably akatsuki like deidara and Kakuza, who are in the level below, can kill him.
Sasuke said Orochimaru could've beaten him without holding back or being on his deathbed iirc, Deidara can arguably beat him but his best moves take prep and that would be putting him above CS2 Sasuke.
Wouldn't Shika be above Choji? xD And probably above Kidomaru. Because didn't he defeat Hidan? And I would say Hidan is stronger than Kidomaru.....just saying..xD

EDIT: I would suggest moving Oro down as well. Even with prep for Edo tensei..the people he summon would be quite weak than their former selves. But I'm not sure on that one...
I think that Choji can overpower his shadows with his strength, but definitely not dodge them, and Shika told Choji that he might've given up against him. Shika only beat Hidan with prep time and knowledge of his abilities.

There are some threads on Edo Tensei Oro claiming that he could possibly solo Narutoverse, or at least stand a good chance against most of its characters, think of all the people he could bring back...
Shizune's needles beat Sai's ink. He breathes any of her fog and he dies.

And so does Kimimaro's bones. He's got nothing to really hurt her, he'd be worn down.

Anyway, don't worry about my views. I won't input any more, I'm not messing with this.
A bunch of ink beasts can surround her and take her down, plus Sai can get on his bird and get out of her range.

Konan has nothing to hurt him with either, and Kimimaro's bones can still cut through her paper. Keep in mind this is going by Kimi with no disease.

Space Cowboy Sasori

11-25-2009, 02:56 PM

Orochimaru w/ Prep time > Nine tailed fox.

Seriously, it's true.

---------------- Now playing: Zac Brown Band - Toes (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/zac+brown+band/track/toes) via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)

Kuromaki

11-25-2009, 02:57 PM

Seriously, it's true.

---------------- Now playing: Zac Brown Band - Toes (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/zac+brown+band/track/toes) via FoxyTunes (http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/)
how?

Unless you're suggesting that he'll bring back Rikudou.

Space Cowboy Sasori

11-25-2009, 02:59 PM

I'm not suggesting that one bit, I'm suggesting he brings back 1st Hokage, Jiraiya, and Nagato.

Kuromaki

11-25-2009, 03:01 PM

I'm not suggesting that one bit, I'm suggesting he brings back 1st Hokage, Jiraiya, and Nagato.
9 tails could kill them all with a swipe of his tail though.

Space Cowboy Sasori

11-25-2009, 03:13 PM

Yuuta

11-25-2009, 03:19 PM

A bunch of ink beasts can surround her and take her down, plus Sai can get on his bird and get out of her range.

Konan has nothing to hurt him with either, and Kimimaro's bones can still cut through her paper. Keep in mind this is going by Kimi with no disease.

Shizune is fast enough to fend them off and not be overwhelmed with simply a scapel, her needle shooting helps as well.

Kimimaro's bone membrane defense eventually runs out with his chakra. Also, since Lee can block the bone sword with his hands Konan could blanket his bones. He's got chakra, but Konan has moew. Since she's long range, she wins.

Kuromaki

11-25-2009, 03:25 PM

How so?

Harashima was able to control Bjuu's with his wood style.
Nagato has all the powers of the six paths except packed into one.
Jiraiya fought on par with Nagato, he just didn't have knowledge there were six.
Oh wait never mind, Hashirama took on Prime Madara with Kyubi.

Moving Edo Tensei Orochimaru up.
Shizune is fast enough to fend them off and not be overwhelmed with simply a scapel, her needle shooting helps as well.

Kimimaro's bone membrane defense eventually runs out with his chakra. Also, since Lee can block the bone sword with his hands Konan could blanket his bones. He's got chakra, but Konan has moew. Since she's long range, she wins.
Shizune hasn't shown chakra scalpels, and five needles at a time won't help much if Sai keeps using ink beasts against her.

Kimimaro showed a great variety of moves in his fight against Gaara and Lee and they can slice through her paper, once again he's faster and could get her before she uses the paper transformation.

Edit; I'm planning to add the Mizu and Tsuchikage, where do you guys think they should go?

Yuuta

11-25-2009, 03:28 PM

Oh wait never mind, Hashirama took on Prime Madara with Kyubi.

Moving Edo Tensei Orochimaru up.

Shizune hasn't shown chakra scalpels, and five needles at a time won't help much if Sai keeps using ink beasts against her.

Kimimaro showed a great variety of moves in his fight against Gaara and Lee and they can slice through her paper, once again he's faster and could get her before she uses the paper transformation.

I meant a metal one like when she fought Kabuto.
It only takes 1 to destroy the ink.

I doubt it, it didn't take that long for her to begin splitting, and once she starts he can't stop it.

Kuromaki

11-25-2009, 03:31 PM

I meant a metal one like when she fought Kabuto.
It only takes 1 to destroy the ink.

I doubt it, it didn't take that long for her to begin splitting, and once she starts he can't stop it.
Ink beasts can still surround her. Although, she can catch him off guard...

It took some pages, so Kimimaro can hit her with a bone or something.

Space Cowboy Sasori

11-25-2009, 03:42 PM

Here Kuro, I stuck the thread for you.

Kuromaki

11-25-2009, 03:44 PM

Thanks.

Edit; Added Mizukage, Tsuchikage (Ōnoki) and Anko, though I'm not sure on the Kages' placements, because of the feats they've shown.

icy-j

11-25-2009, 03:49 PM

Just curious about Shino, I'll start with Kiba. Can't Shino win with a simple Bug Clone, where as Kiba comes in for an attack, and then Shino's bugs just overwhelm him and start eating his chakra?

Kuromaki

11-25-2009, 03:52 PM

Just curious about Shino, I'll start with Kiba. Can't Shino win with a simple Bug Clone, where as Kiba comes in for an attack, and then Shino's bugs just overwhelm him and start eating his chakra?
Kiba can rip through his bugs with tunneling fang. Kiba is also much faster than Shino.

Kizomaru Yukimoto

11-25-2009, 03:55 PM

:O I cant belive you put Hinata on the lowest level. Shame on you but the rest i pretty much agree.

Well hinata has gotten stronger than in the original... But in the original she matched Freshamn.... now she matchs genin xD
Because Hinata is on the lowest level.

xD + Kuro-Senpai it's good. Nice work

icy-j

11-25-2009, 04:00 PM

Kiba can rip through his bugs with tunneling fang. Kiba is also much faster than Shino.

Ya, but Kiba can't just keep doing tunneling fang the whole fight. While Shino releases his bugs all over the battleground and simply makes a Bug Clone when Kiba attacks, and then just hides and lets his bugs do all the work. Kiba shouldn't be able to sniff him out due to the whole field is covered with his bugs. Still not sure even if his fang can get rid of the bugs that on his body either after attacking a bug clone, or if his bugs even get on Akamaru, Kiba is pretty much done.

Yuuta

11-25-2009, 04:02 PM

Ink beasts can still surround her. Although, she can catch him off guard...

It took some pages, so Kimimaro can hit her with a bone or something.

They can surround her, but she's fast and can destroy them, and yes, she can catch Sai off guard.

She was just waiting for him to stop the rain.

Kuromaki

11-25-2009, 04:06 PM

Ya, but Kiba can't just keep doing tunneling fang the whole fight. While Shino releases his bugs all over the battleground and simply makes a Bug Clone when Kiba attacks, and then just hides and lets his bugs do all the work. Kiba shouldn't be able to sniff him out due to the whole field is covered with his bugs. Still not sure even if his fang can get rid of the bugs that on his body either after attacking a bug clone, or if his bugs even get on Akamaru, Kiba is pretty much done.
Pretty sure Kiba would be spinning fast enough to keep the bugs off him, and Shino can't just release his bugs all over while Kiba waits, Kiba's fast so he can attack Shino multiple times. Kiba can shred through Bug Clones and sniff out Shino, and only in certain locations can Shino hide.

I used to be for Shino, although it looks like dual tunneling fangs would be enough to take out Shino, who's not very fast or good in Taijutsu, which Kiba is good at. Kiba's got at least 2 more points higher in speed.
They can surround her, but she's fast and can destroy them, and yes, she can catch Sai off guard.

She was just waiting for him to stop the rain.
Already moved Shizune up.

It took her some time to form though, but at least her upper half was paper on the next page.

Yuuta

11-25-2009, 04:08 PM

Yamato still cannot beat Konan, no way. He's too high.
Konan can easily separate and dodge his attacks, get to him and defeat him.
I've also decided that since I can't drop it, I'll only be a Konan supporter here, there are too many others.

Kuromaki

11-25-2009, 04:12 PM

Still waiting for Suigetsu vs. Konan to end till I move her up.

Yuuta

11-25-2009, 04:13 PM

Already moved Shizune up.

It took her some time to form though, but at least her upper half was paper on the next page.

Many thanks.

She can probably pull it off before he gets to her, especially using some paper attacks, paper clone, etc, And that's the only issue.

Yuuta

11-25-2009, 04:13 PM

Still waiting for Suigetsu vs. Konan to end till I move her up.
Alright. I await deidara330, then.

Berzakinski

11-25-2009, 04:14 PM

Kakuzu can beat Deidara, all he needs is his Raiton heart.

C1: Can't get past Iron skin.

C2: Kakuzu just fires at the slow moving Dragon as soon as Deidara makes it, meaning Deidara can't use any of the C2 bombs.

C3: Takes major prep, and is a large, slow moving target.

C4: This is the big one, now let me explain. If Deidara somehow survives long enough to make it, Kakuzu shoots at it with his Raiton heart. While the microscopic bombs on the inside MIGHT be safe from the electrical blast, Deidara won't be able to open up the big Deidara to let the bombs out, since he uses an Earth-seal handsign. This makes C4 useless.

C0: Technically Kakuzu wins since Deidara dies first.

Kuromaki

11-25-2009, 04:18 PM

icy-j

11-25-2009, 04:20 PM

Pretty sure Kiba would be spinning fast enough to keep the bugs off him, and Shino can't just release his bugs all over while Kiba waits, Kiba's fast so he can attack Shino multiple times. Kiba can shred through Bug Clones and sniff out Shino, and only in certain locations can Shino hide.

I used to be for Shino, although it looks like dual tunneling fangs would be enough to take out Shino, who's not very fast or good in Taijutsu, which Kiba is good at. Kiba's got at least 2 more points higher in speed.

When Shino fought Kankuro, that is what I mean by releasing his bugs, which was pretty instant. Kankuro didn't even see Shino let them out. Once again Kiba can't be in a permant Fang, as in he stops spinning after so long. Kiba is faster, but how can Shino counter his speed? With his Bug Clones.

Location wise if Shino can't hide, then Shino would have to depend on his Bug Wall, Bug Jar, and once again his Bug Clones. All these techniques open up possibilities for Kiba to get covered with bugs. Pretty much if this is an open field battle these are some scenarios.

Kiba also has to stop fang to sense Shino giving openings, I am pretty sure. Not to mention, I still doubt he could sense Shino due to all the Bugs and Shino has all the Bugs in him.

Berzakinski

11-25-2009, 04:22 PM

Kakuzu won't start out with knowledge on the bombs' weakness so he won't know to use Raiton heart right away, and he also has to get the masks out of his body, then Deidara can fly away.

Kakuzu can't see C4 either.

Kakuzu would see Deidara using Earth-seal handsigns, or he could see that the bombs he shoots with his Raiton heart don't detonate.

I'm talking about when C4 is still in that giant Deidara. If the outer layer of the giant Deidara is hit, Deidara can only detonate the bombs while they are inside of the giant Deidara.

Sorry I say giant deidara too much, can't think of how to word it :D

icy-j

11-25-2009, 04:25 PM

Kakuzu would see Deidara using Earth-seal handsigns, or he could see that the bombs he shoots with his Raiton heart don't detonate.

I'm talking about when C4 is still in that giant Deidara. If the outer layer of the giant Deidara is hit, Deidara can only detonate the bombs while they are inside of the giant Deidara.

Sorry I say giant deidara too much, can't think of how to word it :D

This is possible. Kakuzu is pretty smart also. Personally, I don't see Deidara lasting long enough for C4, even then Kakuzu could notice what his Raiton is doing to Deidara's bombs, similiar to how Sasuke found out.

Kuromaki

11-25-2009, 04:29 PM

When Shino fought Kankuro, that is what I mean by releasing his bugs, which was pretty instant. Kankuro didn't even see Shino let them out. Once again Kiba can't be in a permant Fang, as in he stops spinning after so long. Kiba is faster, but how can Shino counter his speed? With his Bug Clones.

Location wise if Shino can't hide, then Shino would have to depend on his Bug Wall, Bug Jar, and once again his Bug Clones. All these techniques open up possibilities for Kiba to get covered with bugs. Pretty much if this is an open field battle these are some scenarios.

Kiba also has to stop fang to sense Shino giving openings, I am pretty sure. Not to mention, I still doubt he could sense Shino due to all the Bugs and Shino has all the Bugs in him.
Kiba can counter Bug Clones with Tunneling Fang.

Shino's Canon Jutsu are bug clone, bug globe, and the bug host technique. Kiba's way too fast for him and I don't see how Shino gets a hold of him, or how Shino can avoid Tunneling Fang with the speed he has.
Kakuzu would see Deidara using Earth-seal handsigns, or he could see that the bombs he shoots with his Raiton heart don't detonate.

I'm talking about when C4 is still in that giant Deidara. If the outer layer of the giant Deidara is hit, Deidara can only detonate the bombs while they are inside of the giant Deidara.

Sorry I say giant deidara too much, can't think of how to word it :D
Kakuzu doesn't have Sharingan, so he wouldn't have as many advantages like Sasuke did.

Berzakinski

11-25-2009, 04:33 PM

Kakuzu doesn't have Sharingan, so he wouldn't have as many advantages like Sasuke did.
Sasuke only needed Sharingan because Deidara was able to use his bombs. Against Kakuzu, I doubt Deidara can activate anything above C1 before it's Raitoned.

Kakuzu doesn't need Sharingan, he nearly killed Kakashi, a Sharingan user, twice.

C-C

11-25-2009, 04:38 PM

♥Can you add Sakura, Tenten, and Kiba, Jugo

icy-j

11-25-2009, 04:52 PM

Kiba can counter Bug Clones with Tunneling Fang.

Shino's Canon Jutsu are bug clone, bug globe, and the bug host technique. Kiba's way too fast for him and I don't see how Shino gets a hold of him, or how Shino can avoid Tunneling Fang with the speed he has.

Blah, I guess it just depends on the location, since half of Shino's other technique's are filler for now.:lol:

Clones would be the counter for Tunneling Fang, but o well I guess we will just have to wait for some more air time, to get back to this one.

narutoultra

11-25-2009, 04:53 PM

♥Can you add Sakura, Tenten, and Kiba, Jugo

All of them are already on there.

Phoenix Wright

11-25-2009, 05:06 PM

Okay I read the whole thread and could have jumped in at any time, but I'm clearing the Orochimaru thing up. If he has prep to summon whoever he needs, these bodies aren't as strong as their full powered selves. It's 30% of their power, just clearing that up.

If he summons 3 though, then bam, that's that.

Kuromaki

11-25-2009, 05:16 PM

Sasuke only needed Sharingan because Deidara was able to use his bombs. Against Kakuzu, I doubt Deidara can activate anything above C1 before it's Raitoned.

Kakuzu doesn't need Sharingan, he nearly killed Kakashi, a Sharingan user, twice.
He'll need Sharingan to detect the bombs' weakness faster.

Kakashi's Sharingan isn't as advanced as Sasuke's.
♥Can you add Sakura, Tenten, and Kiba, Jugo

Already there.
Okay I read the whole thread and could have jumped in at any time, but I'm clearing the Orochimaru thing up. If he has prep to summon whoever he needs, these bodies aren't as strong as their full powered selves. It's 30% of their power, just clearing that up.

If he summons 3 though, then bam, that's that.
Oh. Okay.

Berzakinski

11-25-2009, 06:16 PM

He'll need Sharingan to detect the bombs' weakness faster.

Kakashi's Sharingan isn't as advanced as Sasuke's.

Sasuke didn't have mangyeko sharingan's abilities at that time, so the only thing that it helped him with was with his movements and that he could see the microscopic bombs.

Kakuzu has been around a long time. He's a master of all types of ninjutu, and managed to outsmart Shikamaru in mid battle. He'd figure out something as simple as the bombs' weakness faster than Sasuke did, who was too busy dealing with the C2 bombs to realize the weakness until a lot later in the battle..

Miles Edgeworth

11-25-2009, 06:17 PM

I'm probably gonna post a lot on this, but I'm only gonna go over the first tier in this.

I don't see how Oro with prep would defeat Kyuubi. Sure he can summon the greatest of legends, but I doubt he could actually kill/incapacitate Kyuubi, and there won't be another baby Naruto for sealing =P

I think Kisame should be above Killer Bee, from what he's shown he would've defeated Killer Bee but Samehada trolled him, heck he STILL might win since KB's out cold.

I think Sasuke should be above Minato, MS hax is a problem for Minato. A BIG problem. I don't see how Minato can get around Susanoo or avoid genjutsu rape.

I've gotta say I like this one a lot more than TBC's though.

Yuuta

11-25-2009, 06:55 PM

How does poison fog, poison needles, and speed not beat striking snakes and suicide jutsu?

Kuromaki

11-25-2009, 08:53 PM

Sasuke didn't have mangyeko sharingan's abilities at that time, so the only thing that it helped him with was with his movements and that he could see the microscopic bombs.

Kakuzu has been around a long time. He's a master of all types of ninjutu, and managed to outsmart Shikamaru in mid battle. He'd figure out something as simple as the bombs' weakness faster than Sasuke did, who was too busy dealing with the C2 bombs to realize the weakness until a lot later in the battle..
Most likely Kakuzu won't learn the weakness until the battle's long and drawn out. Without Sharingan to read the hand seals Kakuzu's at a disadvantage.

I still think Kakuzu has a chance but in most cases Deidara would win.
I'm probably gonna post a lot on this, but I'm only gonna go over the first tier in this.

I don't see how Oro with prep would defeat Kyuubi. Sure he can summon the greatest of legends, but I doubt he could actually kill/incapacitate Kyuubi, and there won't be another baby Naruto for sealing =P

I think Kisame should be above Killer Bee, from what he's shown he would've defeated Killer Bee but Samehada trolled him, heck he STILL might win since KB's out cold.

I think Sasuke should be above Minato, MS hax is a problem for Minato. A BIG problem. I don't see how Minato can get around Susanoo or avoid genjutsu rape.

I've gotta say I like this one a lot more than TBC's though.
Moving Edo Tensei Orochimaru back down since the versions of people he summons are weaker.

I'll move Kisame above Killer Bee, with the recent chapters Bee couldn't have survived without help, it looks like.

Sasuke probably wins with the feats they've shown, so I'll move him a spot above Minato.
How does poison fog, poison needles, and speed not beat striking snakes and suicide jutsu?
I'm thinking that Shadow Snakes would be a problem for Shizune, and Anko has some good reflexes. But you have a point there, so I may have to move Shizune up later.

Berzakinski

11-25-2009, 09:36 PM

Most likely Kakuzu won't learn the weakness until the battle's long and drawn out. Without Sharingan to read the hand seals Kakuzu's at a disadvantage.

I still think Kakuzu has a chance but in most cases Deidara would win.

Eh, I seriously don't see how: pretty much all of Deidara's moves except the C1 bombs take major prep, and even when he gets C2 Dragon out, it will be easily destroyed since it hasn't shown any speed feats to dodge multiple attacks. C4 and mainly C3 take longer to make as well, and they're such large targets Kakuzu can't possibly miss with his Raiton.

It's not that hard to figure out that clay = Earth. He should know the weaknesses and strengths of elements because he utilizes them, i.e. the fire-wind combo he used on Kakashi, and the weakness of his Iron Skin, which is earth-based.

Yuuta

11-25-2009, 09:47 PM

I think it's safe to move Moegi up past Udon, she did punch Konohamaru & his clone.
Udon's really done nothing.

Kuromaki

11-26-2009, 09:27 AM

Eh, I seriously don't see how: pretty much all of Deidara's moves except the C1 bombs take major prep, and even when he gets C2 Dragon out, it will be easily destroyed since it hasn't shown any speed feats to dodge multiple attacks. C4 and mainly C3 take longer to make as well, and they're such large targets Kakuzu can't possibly miss with his Raiton.

It's not that hard to figure out that clay = Earth. He should know the weaknesses and strengths of elements because he utilizes them, i.e. the fire-wind combo he used on Kakashi, and the weakness of his Iron Skin, which is earth-based.
Kakuzu has to get his hearts out to do some major damage to Deidara, and Deidara can hit him with an incoming barrage of C2 missiles or get on his bird and fly away.

Deidara is in general superior because of C4, so he's above. I did say Kakuzu could win though, but I still think Deidara has a better chance of winning without knowledge.
I think it's safe to move Moegi up past Udon, she did punch Konohamaru & his clone.
Udon's really done nothing.
That was filler.

In the tier list, Moegi and Udon are equal since they both share the same abilities.

Yuuta

11-26-2009, 09:35 AM

But atleast she's done something somewhere.
Why not have Moegi & Udon? It just seems a little weird.

Kuromaki

11-26-2009, 09:37 AM

But atleast she's done something somewhere.
Why not have Moegi & Udon? It just seems a little weird.
That would make them seem more like a team though.

Either way they're both low tier so it's not really a pressing issue to have them on the same level.

This is also manga based, hence no filler characters or moves.

Berzakinski

11-26-2009, 09:51 AM

Kakuzu has to get his hearts out to do some major damage to Deidara, and Deidara can hit him with an incoming barrage of C2 missiles or get on his bird and fly away.

Deidara is in general superior because of C4, so he's above. I did say Kakuzu could win though, but I still think Deidara has a better chance of winning without knowledge.

It took Kakuzu one panel to get his hearts out, while Deidara has to create the C2 Dragon, get on it, and attempt to get airborne.

The thing is, Deidara was saving C4 for Itachi, and only used it against Sasuke because he hated the Sharingan. Deidara's not gonnna have that kind of hate against Kakuzu, and I seriously doubt he'll be able to bring out C4 without it being shot down, it's such a big and slow target.

And even if he SOMEHOW activates C4 without being pulverized or the C4 turning into a dud, Kakuzu could do what Sasuke did and gauge the distance Deidara was from the bomb and keep his distance too.

Also, does Deidara start on the ground? If so it wouldn't even be a fight, Kakuzu could either speedblitz him or reach him with his tentacles before he can make the bird and jump on it.

There are so many ways Kakuzu can win, while Deidara has only one way, and that's C4, which most likely won't even work or he won't use it before being killed.

321zigzag1

11-26-2009, 11:48 AM

There are arguments that Kakuzu's Raiton Gian will work wonders against Deidara's clay.

Oh yes also Kakuzu can get killed by C3 and C2 barrages.

Berzakinski

11-26-2009, 01:01 PM

There are arguments that Kakuzu's Raiton Gian will work wonders against Deidara's clay.

Oh yes also Kakuzu can get killed by C3 and C2 barrages.
The thing about C2 Dragon is that it is a very large and slow attack. By the time Deidara gets C2 Dragon ready Kakuzu can shoot a Raiton at it, meaning none of the bombs will work. C3 is an even larger and slower target, so I hope I don't have to explain what happens to it.

321zigzag1

11-26-2009, 01:13 PM

The thing about C2 Dragon is that it is a very large and slow attack. By the time Deidara gets C2 Dragon ready Kakuzu can shoot a Raiton at it, meaning none of the bombs will work. C3 is an even larger and slower target, so I hope I don't have to explain what happens to it.

If it manages to explode that would be a different story though.

C3 doesn't move it just drops.

Berzakinski

11-26-2009, 01:29 PM

If it manages to explode that would be a different story though.

C3 doesn't move it just drops.
That just makes it easier to hit, if it's traveling in a predictable trajectory.

And even if it does hit, could it get past Iron Skin, or could it destroy all of his hearts? Kakuzu survived an S-rank jutsu that damages every cell in your body WITHOUT Iron SKin and he still had one heart left.

321zigzag1

11-26-2009, 01:34 PM

That just makes it easier to hit, if it's traveling in a predictable trajectory.

And even if it does hit, could it get past Iron Skin, or could it destroy all of his hearts? Kakuzu survived an S-rank jutsu that damages every cell in your body WITHOUT Iron SKin and he still had one heart left.

C3 has a much bigger destructive capacity than the 50% FRS.

C3 is a multi city block
Kakuzu with Iron skin surviving is possible yet he would be in near death

Berzakinski

11-26-2009, 02:43 PM

C3 has a much bigger destructive capacity than the 50% FRS.

C3 is a multi city block
Kakuzu with Iron skin surviving is possible yet he would be in near death
That's if Deidara can make it before getting blasted, and if he somehow detonates it without Kakuzu either getting out of range or hitting it with a Raiton.

There's too many things that can go wrong with Deidara's moves: he's clearly outmatched when his opponent has a lightning jutsu, and Kakuzu has a long range lightning jutstu, the perfect counter for both Deidara's earth moves and for the distance between them. Plus Deidara has to find a way to kill Kakuzu five times, something that is no easy feat.

321zigzag1

11-26-2009, 06:24 PM

That's if Deidara can make it before getting blasted, and if he somehow detonates it without Kakuzu either getting out of range or hitting it with a Raiton.

There's too many things that can go wrong with Deidara's moves: he's clearly outmatched when his opponent has a lightning jutsu, and Kakuzu has a long range lightning jutstu, the perfect counter for both Deidara's earth moves and for the distance between them. Plus Deidara has to find a way to kill Kakuzu five times, something that is no easy feat.

Kakuzu is not getting of range easily at all.

Yes the Raiton Gian will work wonders against Deidara.

C4 and C3 can bypass the 5 heart rule.
The problem is pulling it off.

Berzakinski

11-26-2009, 07:05 PM

Kakuzu is not getting of range easily at all.

Yes the Raiton Gian will work wonders against Deidara.

C4 and C3 can bypass the 5 heart rule.
That's only if Kakuzu has all of his hearts close together, which he most likely won't
The problem is pulling it off.
And that's the big thing, it's most likely Deidara won't be able to get C3 or C4 at all. Seeing as though those are the only moves that could do anything, Kakuzu is much more likely to win, and that's why he should be higher.

And that kind of battle will happen if Deidara starts on his bird. If he doesn't have his clay bird already out, Kakuzu can knock him out or catch him with his tentacles.

The only points people (not you, lol) make is that Kakuzu doesn't have Sharingan. Does that mean ALL people who don't have Sharingan automatically lose? If so, that's the poorest logic I've ever heard.

Cade

11-26-2009, 07:11 PM

I think that Hinata should be a Chunin or maybe even a Jonin. Her powers are pretty surprising and I think she could improve.

Kuromaki

11-26-2009, 08:16 PM

It took Kakuzu one panel to get his hearts out, while Deidara has to create the C2 Dragon, get on it, and attempt to get airborne.

The thing is, Deidara was saving C4 for Itachi, and only used it against Sasuke because he hated the Sharingan. Deidara's not gonnna have that kind of hate against Kakuzu, and I seriously doubt he'll be able to bring out C4 without it being shot down, it's such a big and slow target.

And even if he SOMEHOW activates C4 without being pulverized or the C4 turning into a dud, Kakuzu could do what Sasuke did and gauge the distance Deidara was from the bomb and keep his distance too.

Also, does Deidara start on the ground? If so it wouldn't even be a fight, Kakuzu could either speedblitz him or reach him with his tentacles before he can make the bird and jump on it.

There are so many ways Kakuzu can win, while Deidara has only one way, and that's C4, which most likely won't even work or he won't use it before being killed.
It depends on the scenario.

I re-checked the chapter, and Kakuzu's hearts did appear in a few panels, although by that time Deidara can hit him with bombs to keep him distracted. Also, it only took some panels for a full C2 Dragon to appear, if Deidara keeps it long range like he did against Sasuke, he should be able to pull it off.
The only points people (not you, lol) make is that Kakuzu doesn't have Sharingan. Does that mean ALL people who don't have Sharingan automatically lose? If so, that's the poorest logic I've ever heard.
>__>

I said not having Sharingan would put him at a disadvantage. He can't read the hand seals nor does he know about Deidara's earth element.

This is a close match, so I may have to move Kakuzu up later.
I think that Hinata should be a Chunin or maybe even a Jonin. Her powers are pretty surprising and I think she could improve.
Hinata is featless and can't beat any of the characters above her save for maybe Hanabi.

She's already on the chunin level, only it's low chunin.

Berzakinski

11-26-2009, 08:31 PM

It depends on the scenario.

I re-checked the chapter, and Kakuzu's hearts did appear in a few panels, although by that time Deidara can hit him with bombs to keep him distracted. Also, it only took some panels for a full C2 Dragon to appear, if Deidara keeps it long range like he did against Sasuke, he should be able to pull it off. It would take longer for Deidara to make the C2 Dragon, get on it and become airborne, compared to Kakuzu just letting out his masks. I'd say the most Deidara would ever get is one C2 bomb, if that, before the dragon is destroyed, since it wasn't that fast and is pretty big.

>__>
XD

I said not having Sharingan would put him at a disadvantage. He can't read the hand seals nor does he know about Deidara's earth element.
I didn't mean to sound like that, but I feel it wouldn't be that hard to figure out Clay = Earth, especially when Kakuzu's arsenal is mainly the different types of elements.
This is a close match, so I may have to move Kakuzu up later.
Thanks for taking it into consideration, so now I'll leave you alone to take a breather :D

Replying in red is for kewl people.

Konan

11-26-2009, 09:36 PM

Konan

11-26-2009, 09:38 PM

Also about the above convorsation, Kakuzu has allot of battle experience, he probably knows that he can deactivate Deidara's bombs with his lightning element heart.

SPAM [bot]

11-26-2009, 09:43 PM

Why is Chiyo so high? Even Haku can beat her.

Hidan

11-26-2009, 10:14 PM

This should be a obvious mistake but, how is Hidan lower than Asuma? Seriously

Miles Edgeworth

11-26-2009, 10:15 PM

;1842358']Why is Chiyo so high? Even Haku can beat her.

Lol no, Chiyo stomps Haku.

Since she was able to fight off Sasori, who is arguably transonic, she is at least sonic speed. Haku showed sonic speed at his best.

Chiyo specializes in dodging and there's no way Base Haku is gonna be getting past superior speed, chakra shields, and insane puppets. He's not that durable.

Hidan

11-26-2009, 10:20 PM

Lol no, Chiyo stomps Haku.

Since she was able to fight off Sasori, who is arguably transonic, she is at least sonic speed. Haku showed sonic speed at his best.

Chiyo specializes in dodging and there's no way Base Haku is gonna be getting past superior speed, chakra shields, and insane puppets. He's not that durable.

Okay look at this, Chiyo cannot defeat Sasori, she doesn't have any antidotes or Sakura's human strength to help her in the situation, Haku can speed blitz Chiyo and create mirrors and hide in them which can't crack to even scorching heat which I think can only be taken down/broken by Amateratsu, I can't see Chiyo beating her.

SPAM [bot]

11-26-2009, 10:22 PM

Lol no, Chiyo stomps Haku.

Since she was able to fight off Sasori, who is arguably transonic, she is at least sonic speed. Haku showed sonic speed at his best.

Chiyo specializes in dodging and there's no way Base Haku is gonna be getting past superior speed, chakra shields, and insane puppets. He's not that durable.

Neither is Chiyo, she's just as fragile, if not more, Haku just needs to create the ice mirrors or use some sendbon and she's dead without a moment's notice.

Miles Edgeworth

11-26-2009, 10:23 PM

Okay look at this, Chiyo cannot defeat Sasori, she doesn't have any antidotes or Sakura's human strength to help her in the situation, Haku can speed blitz Chiyo and create mirrors and hide in them which can't crack to even scorching heat which I think can only be taken down/broken by Amateratsu, I can't see Chiyo beating her.

Haku would not speedblitz Chiyo, Sasuke at the time was reacting to Haku, we all know Chiyo has much better reaction feats than Wave Sasuke.

Haku never starts with Demonic Ice Mirrors, Chiyo could easily kill him before that.

Naruto gave Haku a solid punch and the mirrors broke, so if Chiyo can do that Haku's screwed.

Also, Chiyo was able to control her puppets even though she was hit by body numbing poison and didn't take an antidote for some time, I doubt that Haku shooting needles at her would kill her.

Miles Edgeworth

11-26-2009, 10:25 PM

;1842598']Neither is Chiyo, she's just as fragile, if not more, Haku just needs to create the ice mirrors or use some sendbon and she's dead without a moment's notice.

Haku was screwed over by one solid hit (granted it was due to plot, but Chiyo>>>>>>>>KN0), so why wouldn't Chiyo take him out with her puppets? =/

If Chiyo uses 10 puppets, she can use the vacuum and Haku has no more senbon. Yeah, that means he's screwed over, big time.

SPAM [bot]

11-26-2009, 10:27 PM

Haku would not speedblitz Chiyo, Sasuke at the time was reacting to Haku, we all know Chiyo has much better reaction feats than Wave Sasuke.

Haku never starts with Demonic Ice Mirrors, Chiyo could easily kill him before that.

Naruto gave Haku a solid punch and the mirrors broke, so if Chiyo can do that Haku's screwed.

Also, Chiyo was able to control her puppets even though she was hit by body numbing poison and didn't take an antidote for some time, I doubt that Haku shooting needles at her would kill her.

Naruto had to gather some chakra from the kyuubi to be able to break it and her using the puppets with that poison was plot. I don't remember Chiyo dodging something that was all coming at her at all sides.

SPAM [bot]

11-26-2009, 10:29 PM

Haku was screwed over by one solid hit (granted it was due to plot, but Chiyo>>>>>>>>KN0), so why wouldn't Chiyo take him out with her puppets? =/

If Chiyo uses 10 puppets, she can use the vacuum and Haku has no more senbon. Yeah, that means he's screwed over, big time.

It takes some prep time to take out the puppets, so Haku can use the senbon quickly and kill her. and no, Chiyo might be almost as fast, but not nearly as durable as KN0.

Miles Edgeworth

11-26-2009, 10:33 PM

;1842624']Naruto had to gather some chakra from the kyuubi to be able to break it and her using the puppets with that poison was plot. I don't remember Chiyo dodging something that was all coming at her at all sides.

That's the thing, Chiyo>0 Tailed Naruto, who beat Haku pretty handily.

Chiyo reacted to what was arguably supersonic, I really hope you don't think that Haku is faster than that. Keep in mind that Haku doesn't use sand either, so Chiyo can spam chakra shield until Haku runs out of senbon.

;1842637']It takes some prep time to take out the puppets, so Haku can use the senbon quickly and kill her. and no, Chiyo might be almost as fast, but not nearly as durable as KN0.

And you think that Haku could kill her so easily why? Chiyo summons her puppets before Haku uses the mirrors and stomps him to high heaven. She's got better speed feats than him so there's no way he's gonna be "speedblitzing" her, ESPECIALLY not in base form.

Zomg it takes like 2 panels to summon puppets, yeah that's a lot of prep time there. Haku could only do something about that in mirrors, and even then Chiyo can dodge his attacks. Chiyo is easily superior to Wave Naruto and Wave Sasuke.

SPAM [bot]

11-26-2009, 10:36 PM

That's the thing, Chiyo>0 Tailed Naruto, who beat Haku pretty handily.

Chiyo reacted to what was arguably supersonic, I really hope you don't think that Haku is faster than that. Keep in mind that Haku doesn't use sand either, so Chiyo can spam chakra shield until Haku runs out of senbon.

And you think that Haku could kill her so easily why? Chiyo summons her puppets before Haku uses the mirrors and stomps him to high heaven. She's got better speed feats than him so there's no way he's gonna be "speedblitzing" her, ESPECIALLY not in base form.

Zomg it takes like 2 panels to summon puppets, yeah that's a lot of prep time there. Haku could only do something about that in mirrors, and even then Chiyo can dodge his attacks. Chiyo is easily superior to Wave Naruto and Wave Sasuke.

First of all, I mean, I don't remember her dodging something that was coming from behind, front and the sides, she had to dodge what was coming straight for her and second of all, I never said he had to take out the ice mirrors to use senbon, he can use senbon pretty well outside of the mirrors too, you know. While Chiyo pulls up her sleave, Haku shoots a senbon to one of her pressure points and she dies.

Miles Edgeworth

11-26-2009, 10:39 PM

;1842674']First of all, I mean, I don't remember her dodging something that was coming from behind, front and the sides, she had to dodge what was coming straight for her and second of all, I never said he had to take out the ice mirrors to use senbon, he can use senbon pretty well outside of the mirrors too, you know. While Chiyo pulls up her sleave, Haku shoots a senbon to one of her pressure points and she dies.

Problem is Iron Sand was a lot faster and it doesn't matter since Chiyo can react to attacks from multiple directions.

Lol, you seriously think Haku could ATTEMPT to kill Chiyo outside of the mirrors? She could control the senbon coming at her with chakra threads and send them back to him (probably at least, I know she can shoot weapons like this).

If that was so simple, why didn't it kill Naruto or Sasuke after so many hits? Chiyo is more experienced than those two as well.

SPAM [bot]

11-26-2009, 10:42 PM

Problem is Iron Sand was a lot faster and it doesn't matter since Chiyo can react to attacks from multiple directions.

Lol, you seriously think Haku could ATTEMPT to kill Chiyo outside of the mirrors? She could control the senbon coming at her with chakra threads and send them back to him (probably at least, I know she can shoot weapons like this).

If that was so simple, why didn't it kill Naruto or Sasuke after so many hits? Chiyo is more experienced than those two as well.

Really? I only remember her dodging what was coming straight for her. The iron sand, straight from above and she used Sakura most of the time.

Why didn't she block most of the other senbons coming at her, when Sasori threw them?

Plot my friend, plot.

321zigzag1

11-26-2009, 10:47 PM

;1842712']Really? I only remember her dodging what was coming straight for her. The iron sand, straight from above and she used Sakura most of the time.

Why didn't she block most of the other senbons coming at her, when Sasori threw them?

Plot my friend, plot.

She blocked all of the needles with chakra shield it was plot that Sasori didn't continue to spam.

SPAM [bot]

11-26-2009, 10:52 PM

She blocked all of the needles with chakra shield it was plot that Sasori didn't continue to spam.

Well, remember she was a considerable distance away and Haku's been shown to have nearly unlimited senbon.

Miles Edgeworth

11-26-2009, 11:18 PM

;1842787']Well, remember she was a considerable distance away and Haku's been shown to have nearly unlimited senbon.

That doesn't change the fact that supersonic needles are much faster than someone throwing a senbon from about a yard or two away with normal human strength.

Lol at unlimited senbon, only reason was because he RELIES on senbon, without it he can't do crap.

That's where 10 puppets comes in, if Chiyo uses the vacuum then Haku loses all his needles and he's screwed. GG.

icy-j

11-26-2009, 11:19 PM

Why is Chiyo so high? She just has allot of knowledge, she can't even take down an Akatsuki member by her self, also I think Kisame is a bit to high, he hasn't shown anything really that great, FWR he seemed more stronger against Team Guy than his normal self IMO.

I agree with Kisame being to high, even though he proved he can beat KB. He shouldn't be above Itachi, since I doubt he could beat him. Debated that fight probally 3 times, so I'll just leave my opinion on that.

I still think Raikage and KB are overrated, but that is just my opinion. Mainly, based on how easy Kisame beat KB, and seems in every Raikage debate people think his is untouchable due to Raiton Armor and can just speed blitz everyone. Itachi can Tsukuyomi probally both of them, Amatersu was proved to be able to go through Raiton armor. Sasori's Iron sand and poison could possibly beat them, or he could just fly up with some of the sand and Raikage can't do much.

Another thing is the Akatsuki have proven to take down all the tailed beasts down with really no effort. Even KB, like I said Kisame took him down pretty easily.

SPAM [bot]

11-26-2009, 11:21 PM

That doesn't change the fact that supersonic needles are much faster than someone throwing a senbon from about a yard or two away with normal human strength.

Lol at unlimited senbon, only reason was because he RELIES on senbon, without it he can't do crap.

That's where 10 puppets comes in, if Chiyo uses the vacuum then Haku loses all his needles and he's screwed. GG.

Since when has she dodged super sonic needles?

But he still has them.

It depends if she pulls them out in time.

Miles Edgeworth

11-26-2009, 11:41 PM

;1842972']Since when has she dodged super sonic needles?

But he still has them.

It depends if she pulls them out in time.

Iron Sand=Supersonic

Chiyo can summon puppets faster than Haku uses needles.

SPAM [bot]

11-26-2009, 11:44 PM

Iron Sand=Supersonic

Chiyo can summon puppets faster than Haku uses needles.

Actually, Haku can take out his needles faster, when he's in the ice mirrors, he's constantly pulling out needle to throw at his enemy. In one panel, Haku could spit out many needles while it takes two panels, as you said, for Chiyo to summon puppets.

shantanu

11-27-2009, 05:59 AM

I think shino needs some better placement and also about obito uchoha-he is low chunnin u r kiddin

Miles Edgeworth

11-27-2009, 08:16 AM

;1843136']Actually, Haku can take out his needles faster, when he's in the ice mirrors, he's constantly pulling out needle to throw at his enemy. In one panel, Haku could spit out many needles while it takes two panels, as you said, for Chiyo to summon puppets.

Not in base form he can't =/

Also, you haven't proved how Haku can hit Chiyo when I've given feats that show Chiyo has higher reaction time than Haku's speed.

Fan of Minato

11-27-2009, 11:37 AM

Kuromaki

11-27-2009, 01:59 PM

Moved Kakuzu up, finally.
Why is Chiyo so high? She just has allot of knowledge, she can't even take down an Akatsuki member by her self, also I think Kisame is a bit to high, he hasn't shown anything really that great, FWR he seemed more stronger against Team Guy than his normal self IMO.
Sasori>Chiyo so that's why she couldn't beat him, and her 10 puppets can take down a lot of characters, Kisame can absorb chakra and heal himself, he almost beat Killer Bee.
This should be a obvious mistake but, how is Hidan lower than Asuma? Seriously
Asuma is faster and a good tactician, and his placement is based on their overall abilities.
;1842358']Why is Chiyo so high? Even Haku can beat her.
Major Chiyo underrating there.
I agree with Kisame being to high, even though he proved he can beat KB. He shouldn't be above Itachi, since I doubt he could beat him. Debated that fight probally 3 times, so I'll just leave my opinion on that.

I still think Raikage and KB are overrated, but that is just my opinion. Mainly, based on how easy Kisame beat KB, and seems in every Raikage debate people think his is untouchable due to Raiton Armor and can just speed blitz everyone. Itachi can Tsukuyomi probally both of them, Amatersu was proved to be able to go through Raiton armor. Sasori's Iron sand and poison could possibly beat them, or he could just fly up with some of the sand and Raikage can't do much.

Another thing is the Akatsuki have proven to take down all the tailed beasts down with really no effort. Even KB, like I said Kisame took him down pretty easily.
Kisame beat KB mainly because of Samehada's chakra sucking powers and his water globe.

Tsukuyomi is ineffective on KB and it's unknown if it works on Raikage, Raikage can dodge Ammy and KB could dodge or substitute out of it.
I think shino needs some better placement and also about obito uchoha-he is low chunnin u r kiddin
Feats?
"Orochimaru (With Prep Time for Edo Tensei)
Nagato/Pain"
I'd say Pain would be above Orochimaru. Even with prep the people brought about are really really weaker then their true selves.
And I'd say that even if its a first and second hokage, Pain's six paths can overwhelm them and there's Gedo which can absorb their souls in the end.
Depends on who Orochimaru summons.

Yuuta

11-27-2009, 02:10 PM

"Orochimaru (With Prep Time for Edo Tensei)
Nagato/Pain"
I'd say Pain would be above Orochimaru. Even with prep the people brought about are really really weaker then their true selves.
And I'd say that even if its a first and second hokage, Pain's six paths can overwhelm them and there's Gedo which can absorb their souls in the end.
I think if Orochimaru managed to summon the first, second, and fourth Hokage, he would win against Pain. Minato was supposed to be the most powerful ninja ever, besides the Sage of Six Paths.

Yuuta

11-27-2009, 02:16 PM

Kuromaki

11-27-2009, 02:36 PM

I think Hidan could beat Asuma, his immortality really negates most of Asuma's skills, and his taijutsu is slightly better than Asuma's. He was able to handle Asuma, Shikamaru's jutsu, and some attacks from Kotetsu & Izumo at once, I think Asuma alone loses.
I think Temari might be able to beat Asuma as well. Temari's wind jutsu keeps Asuma away, and Kamatari takes care of the rest.
Asuma alone might lose, but his placement is based on their overall abilities, as said before.

I don't think Temari can beat Asuma, he has overall better stats and Fire>Wind. Kamatari can take him out, though, I doubt she'd pull it out in the beginning.

Yuuta

11-27-2009, 03:03 PM

Asuma alone might lose, but his placement is based on their overall abilities, as said before.

I don't think Temari can beat Asuma, he has overall better stats and Fire>Wind. Kamatari can take him out, though, I doubt she'd pull it out in the beginning.

Yeah, and Hidan's immortality really beats Asuma's chakra blades in terms of abilities.

Oh yeah...But her strongest move is a winner.

Kisame

11-27-2009, 03:49 PM

1. I think Mizuki should be above or below Iruka, he was defeated by a thousand clones from an exhausted academy Naruto, those clones would've been extremely weak.

2. Konan above Zabuza possibly, the only real danger is the Suiton which takes a lot of prep time and he needs a large water source, the mist jutsu won't be very helpful because she can disperse, the chakra it takes to maintain it would finally tax him out.

3. Tsunade possibly above Mizukage, she's an expert in dodging so it shouldn't be too hard to dodge her lava, her regen can help her overcome the mist and she has enough chakra to heal a whole village, so she can keep it up long enough, plus the jutsu needs a closed space to be most effective in.

4. Nagato/Pain above Orochimaru, Deva has summoned Gedou Mazou before, so I imagine it's possible to use it combat wise, he could have not summoned it before because he needed Naruto alive and he didn't want to attract to much attention in his village, so Nagato could summon him and link up and proceed to suck up the zombie's souls.

5. Wouldn't Shukaku be above Gaara? Shukaku can regen iirc since he grew an arm after Shuaku cut his off and his wind blast nearly took out Gamabunta.

Well, that's basically it.

Kuromaki

11-27-2009, 05:02 PM

Yeah, and Hidan's immortality really beats Asuma's chakra blades in terms of abilities.

Oh yeah...But her strongest move is a winner.
You see, even if Hidan can beat him in a fair fight, that would be putting him above Asuma who is arguably superior to Suigetsu and Temari, but Suigetsu can beat Hidan because of hydration technique, Temari might be able to beat him too but I'm not sure on that one. So I based that on overall abilities.
1. I think Mizuki should be above or below Iruka, he was defeated by a thousand clones from an exhausted academy Naruto, those clones would've been extremely weak.

2. Konan above Zabuza possibly, the only real danger is the Suiton which takes a lot of prep time and he needs a large water source, the mist jutsu won't be very helpful because she can disperse, the chakra it takes to maintain it would finally tax him out.

3. Tsunade possibly above Mizukage, she's an expert in dodging so it shouldn't be too hard to dodge her lava, her regen can help her overcome the mist and she has enough chakra to heal a whole village, so she can keep it up long enough, plus the jutsu needs a closed space to be most effective in.

4. Nagato/Pain above Orochimaru, Deva has summoned Gedou Mazou before, so I imagine it's possible to use it combat wise, he could have not summoned it before because he needed Naruto alive and he didn't want to attract to much attention in his village, so Nagato could summon him and link up and proceed to suck up the zombie's souls.

5. Wouldn't Shukaku be above Gaara? Shukaku can regen iirc since he grew an arm after Shuaku cut his off and his wind blast nearly took out Gamabunta.

Well, that's basically it.
Mizuki doesn't really have a lot to work with but neither does Iruka, at least Mizuki has giant shuriken, so I'll move him below Izumo.

Okay, I'll move Konan up, then again she can possibly fly out of the hidden mist jutsu.

Moving Tsunade and Shukaku up, forgot about soul sucking Gedou Mazou on Nagato so he's moved up too.

Edit; Added Kin, Yoroi, Misumi, Shigure, and Yashamaru.

Added Kin's teammates, Zaku and Dosu, as well. I based the above placements off of the wiki.

Yuuta

11-27-2009, 05:59 PM

You see, even if Hidan can beat him in a fair fight, that would be putting him above Asuma who is arguably superior to Suigetsu and Temari, but Suigetsu can beat Hidan because of hydration technique, Temari might be able to beat him too but I'm not sure on that one. So I based that on overall abilities.

Whoa whoa whoa! How is Asuma > Suigetsu?
Asuma, with two chakra blades, has never shown the advantage over a single-weapon user - Kisame, Hidan. If he could cut Suigetsu's sword he would have been able to cut Hidan's scythe. Suigetsu would probably beat him in straight taijutsu, when you add his great water arm jutsu. Also, if he's hit, he has his hydration jutsu. Water's weak to fire, Suigetsu and his hydration jutsu would probably not be affected. And if Suigetsu goes into his wave mode, he really owns Asuma.

Can I request that Darui and Shi be added? I would say Darui's under Temari, and Shi's...er...Under Hidan? Or Kabuto? But definetly above Jugo.

And I'm just waiting for one last response from deidara330. My silence has been compromised, but now I realized I don't like it. Once I get the response, I'll start debating for Konan again. :)

Kuromaki

11-27-2009, 06:11 PM

Whoa whoa whoa! How is Asuma > Suigetsu?
Asuma, with two chakra blades, has never shown the advantage over a single-weapon user - Kisame, Hidan. If he could cut Suigetsu's sword he would have been able to cut Hidan's scythe. Suigetsu would probably beat him in straight taijutsu, when you add his great water arm jutsu. Also, if he's hit, he has his hydration jutsu. Water's weak to fire, Suigetsu and his hydration jutsu would probably not be affected. And if Suigetsu goes into his wave mode, he really owns Asuma.

Can I request that Darui and Shi be added? I would say Darui's under Temari, and Shi's...er...Under Hidan? Or Kabuto? But definetly above Jugo.

And I'm just waiting for one last response from deidara330. My silence has been compromised, but now I realized I don't like it. Once I get the response, I'll start debating for Konan again. :)
Asuma has shown better speed, and Ash Pile Burning would explode around Suigetsu, who hasn't shown very good durability against chakra blasts, so explosions might take him out. Suigetsu would pwn in wave monster mode but that would require specific locations with water.

How does Shi beat Jugo with just healing and Lightning Flash genjutsu? I don't know very much about his abilities.

Darui's shown good swordsmanship skills and some water/lightning style attacks, so I'll place him right under Temari, for now.

Yuuta

11-27-2009, 06:49 PM

Asuma has shown better speed, and Ash Pile Burning would explode around Suigetsu, who hasn't shown very good durability against chakra blasts, so explosions might take him out. Suigetsu would pwn in wave monster mode but that would require specific locations with water.

How does Shi beat Jugo with just healing and Lightning Flash genjutsu? I don't know very much about his abilities.

Darui's shown good swordsmanship skills and some water/lightning style attacks, so I'll place him right under Temari, for now.

I disagree, Suigetsu's speedblitzed to save Sasuke.
He was hit by chidori, right? He's weak to lightning. If his hydration jutsu is weak to lightning, though, it must be strong against fire. And the only other chakra blast he was hit with was the 8 tails...And that was a chakra blast if there ever was one. :|

Well, Jugo did fall for his genjutsu, he could probably kill him.
If not though, because we haven't seen much, why not around Kurenai's level?

Kuromaki

11-27-2009, 06:57 PM

I disagree, Suigetsu's speedblitzed to save Sasuke.
He was hit by chidori, right? He's weak to lightning. If his hydration jutsu is weak to lightning, though, it must be strong against fire. And the only other chakra blast he was hit with was the 8 tails...And that was a chakra blast if there ever was one. :|

Well, Jugo did fall for his genjutsu, he could probably kill him.
If not though, because we haven't seen much, why not around Kurenai's level?
I dunno, Suigetsu's around Subsonic, Asuma's at least Sonic according to the battleground wiki. Suigetsu needs to show more. He tanked Hachibi's chakra blast but he needed his Wave monster form. Blocking the Zabuza Sword shouldn't be too hard since Asuma blocked Samehada, and his speed would give little time for Suigetsu to react.

Shi has only shown Genjutsu that won't necessarily kill a person, and some healing.

Yuuta

11-27-2009, 07:25 PM

I dunno, Suigetsu's around Subsonic, Asuma's at least Sonic according to the battleground wiki. Suigetsu needs to show more. He tanked Hachibi's chakra blast but he needed his Wave monster form. Blocking the Zabuza Sword shouldn't be too hard since Asuma blocked Samehada, and his speed would give little time for Suigetsu to react.

Shi has only shown Genjutsu that won't necessarily kill a person, and some healing.

Err...Wasn't battleground wiki made off of this forum?
Also, wasn't Asuma still cut by Samehada when he blocked it? Suigetsu with his water arms would probably be fast and strong enough to over take Asuma.

I'm assuming Shi has a kunai or something so he can take care of people in his genjutsu.

Kuromaki

11-27-2009, 07:32 PM

Err...Wasn't battleground wiki made off of this forum?
Also, wasn't Asuma still cut by Samehada when he blocked it? Suigetsu with his water arms would probably be fast and strong enough to over take Asuma.

I'm assuming Shi has a kunai or something so he can take care of people in his genjutsu.
Right, he hasn't shown one though, if I'm not mistaken.

Samehada>Zabuza Sword. The wind blades can extend, and give Asuma the advantage in close range, even with Suigetsu's watery form.

321zigzag1

11-27-2009, 07:59 PM

Suigetsu isn't slow. He was fast enough to intercept Raikage although Raikage wasn't going all out in speed in the beginning

SPAM [bot]

11-27-2009, 08:03 PM

I'll admit, Chiyo has a good chance of winning against Haku, but why is she so far up? I don't think she'd be able to beat Yamato or Might Guy.

Yuuta

11-27-2009, 08:08 PM

Right, he hasn't shown one though, if I'm not mistaken.

Samehada>Zabuza Sword. The wind blades can extend, and give Asuma the advantage in close range, even with Suigetsu's watery form.
Err...Shown what?

I don't think Suigetsu will have the advantage even with two long blades, Suigetsu's quick, strong, and his hydration jutsu makes him able to fight through getting hit by Asuma's attacks. Also, his water arm allows him to swing faster and more powerfully that he can probably overcome Asuma.

Kuromaki

11-28-2009, 09:04 AM

Space Cowboy Sasori

11-28-2009, 09:29 AM

I personally believe Mizukage should be above Chiyo since she would probably be able to melt the puppets.

321zigzag1

11-28-2009, 01:08 PM

I personally believe Mizukage should be above Chiyo since she would probably be able to melt the puppets.

I second this.
Also by hype and abilities all around.

Although Mizukage hasn't shown other feats yet so she is mostly featless.

Kuromaki

11-28-2009, 01:24 PM

So should I move Tsunade above Chiyo? I think Chiyo could beat Tsunade, and Tsunade can beat Mizukage, from feats.

Hype gives it to Mizukage but feats give it to Chiyo and Tsunade.

321zigzag1

11-28-2009, 01:32 PM

So should I move Tsunade above Chiyo? I think Chiyo could beat Tsunade, and Tsunade can beat Mizukage, from feats.

Hype gives it to Mizukage but feats give it to Chiyo and Tsunade.

The problem with Tsunade is that she is pure close range mostly.

Mizukage has an advantage over Tsunade though

Kuromaki

11-28-2009, 01:37 PM

321zigzag1

11-28-2009, 01:44 PM

Mizukage's jutsu works best mid-long range. But short range, Tsunade can probably heal then punch her.

And couldn't Chiyo use the vacuum for the mist temporarily? I don't think Mizukage can avoid that many puppets at once.

Range being th issue.

Mizukage has the advantage.

Well Mizukage is still mostly featless although I have few ideas how she might.

icy-j

11-28-2009, 02:54 PM

321zigzag1

11-28-2009, 02:59 PM

icy-j

11-28-2009, 03:03 PM

Nobody does that in Naruto. Not even Gai. Even genjutsu specialists like Shi who was wary of sharingan didn't either.

Then Tsukuyomi wins. I am just saying that is debate that people use to counter it.

321zigzag1

11-28-2009, 03:06 PM

Then Tsukuyomi wins. I am just saying that is debate that people use to counter it.

Yeah in a debate setting it is legit to discuss such possibilities but closing the eyes is not done.

Kisame is more likely try to avoid eye contact not close his eyes.

icy-j

11-28-2009, 03:11 PM

Yeah in a debate setting it is legit to discuss such possibilities but closing the eyes is not done.

Kisame is more likely try to avoid eye contact not close his eyes.

Trying to fight by avoiding eye contact. Then he wouldn't even be able to see what Itachi is doing. Never has been stated he trained at watching the feet, like Gai. Itachi can catch him in a finger gen then. Yes, his Samehada can get him out, but it would buy Itachi some time to get out of the bubble, or get off Tsukuyomi, an Amatersu. Don't give me biyuu are immune, when Itachi has proven to be able to catch Naruto.

321zigzag1

11-28-2009, 03:18 PM

Trying to fight by avoiding eye contact. Then he wouldn't even be able to see what Itachi is doing. Never has been stated he trained at watching the feet, like Gai. Itachi can catch him in a finger gen then. Yes, his Samehada can get him out, but it would buy Itachi some time to get out of the bubble, or get off Tsukuyomi, an Amatersu. Don't give me biyuu are immune, when Itachi has proven to be able to catch Naruto.

Yes he would at least somewhat because he still can see

Naruto never trained with his tailed beast on genjutsu breaking.

icy-j

11-28-2009, 03:20 PM

Yes he would at least somewhat because he still can see

Naruto never trained with his tailed beast on genjutsu breaking.

Counter the first in the previous post of mine. Kisame doesn't even have a tailed beast. I was just talking about biyuu chakra amount.

321zigzag1

11-28-2009, 03:23 PM

Counter the first in the previous post of mine. Kisame doesn't even have a tailed beast. I was just talking about biyuu chakra amount.

If Kisame attempts no eye contact much as possible he still can see other movements but of course he is not really suited to that.

Oh you meant that? Well of course not.
The only way Kisame breaking genjtusu within possibility is the whole samehada factor. Chakra amount didn't make a difference.

icy-j

11-28-2009, 03:25 PM

If Kisame attempts no eye contact much as possible he still can see other movements but of course he is not really suited to that.

Oh you meant that? Well of course not.
The only way Kisame breaking genjtusu within possibility is the whole samehada factor. Chakra amount didn't make a difference.

Yep, I was just stating that, because people believe biyuu level chakra ninja are immune to every gen except Tsukuyomi. When actually several people have proven Naruto with biyuu level chakra can get caught in simple gen.

321zigzag1

11-28-2009, 03:37 PM

Yep, I was just stating that, because people believe biyuu level chakra ninja are immune to every gen except Tsukuyomi. When actually several people have proven Naruto with biyuu level chakra can get caught in simple gen.

http://i37.tinypic.com/ehv6o.jpg

narutoultra

11-28-2009, 04:02 PM

Kuromaki

11-28-2009, 05:46 PM

I still don't see how Kisame gets past Sasuke and Itachi. Both have Tsukuyomi, and Kisame would have to have his eyes closed the whole fight just to avoid that. Giving plenty of openings for an Amatersu to hit, since he can't even see it coming. Doubt he could dodge their Susano'o with his eyes closed also.

Sasuke can also counter pretty much every water jutsu due to his lightning. They both have shown better speed feats then Kisame other then in water. Itachi can get out of his bubble with some shadow clones and just send them in different directions, similiar to how KB got his friends out. Sasuke could use his chidori current. Once again I don't even think they would need to leave the bubble to win this. How does Kisame even see Amatersu about to hit him?

How can Kisame even beat them? Sharingan helps them dodge just about every attack attempt from a blind Kisame. Sasuke has his Amatersu shield. They both can summon Susano'o like I said to kill Kisame, if it gets into a Tai fight. Kisame has never seen it, he is blind, right infront of them, I doubt he could dodge an attack or fully absorb Susano'o after one attack.
I think Kisame, knowing Itachi, would pull out the water globe first. The water globe is pretty much his only chance, and it was pretty fast so I don't see Itachi or Sasuke dodging that thing when Bee and his friends couldn't. With Samehada he can absorb the chakra from the jutsu, and it would be hard to do their Sharingan jutsu in the water.

Clones can easily be taken out by Kisame. Wouldn't he know who's the real one with his chakra sensing? And I doubt Susano'o has 6 tails worth of chakra since it's controlled by the users who don't have 6 tails worth of chakra.
I accidently derepped you, i meant to up rep you, sorry.
It's okay as long as you give it back later of course xD

icy-j

11-28-2009, 06:38 PM

I think Kisame, knowing Itachi, would pull out the water globe first. The water globe is pretty much his only chance, and it was pretty fast so I don't see Itachi or Sasuke dodging that thing when Bee and his friends couldn't. With Samehada he can absorb the chakra from the jutsu, and it would be hard to do their Sharingan jutsu in the water. Why would it be hard to use ocular jutsu? It is just water, Amatersu comes out where ever the caster wants and has proven to burn in water. Susano'o is just a summon. Sasuke can use his chidori current also. Kisame can't even see an Amatersu coming. Kisame has never seen Susano'o. I also like how people talk about Kisame knowing Itachi, when Itachi was with him also.

Clones can easily be taken out by Kisame. Wouldn't he know who's the real one with his chakra sensing? And I doubt Susano'o has 6 tails worth of chakra since it's controlled by the users who don't have 6 tails worth of chakra. Taken out easily how? There are about 3 threads of debates of this fight, talking about all this already. Kisame is fighting with his eyes closed, and it going by sensing chakra. Itachi makes 5-10 shadow clones, of course evenly distrubted. All Kisame can sense is 5-10 people in front of him with similiar chakra. They all go into different directions.

Fights to counter that Kisame would easily tell which is the original. Neji (100 times better sensory ninja) vs Naruto couldn't tell which was the real. Kakuzu vs only 3-5 clones couldn't tell. Pein vs Naruto 3-5 clones couldn't tell. The 20 fights Naruto had pre-ship where he made 3-5 clones to rasengan, his enemy couldn't tell. Give me one or two fights where it was that simple to tell the orginal.

To counter all future debate on Kisame's chakra sensing, all he did was sense KB's chakra right in front of him. I don't get how some people overrate this feat. No he can't sense the total amount of chakra people have, no he can't predict jutsu being cast, and no he can't see chakra flow, points, or color.

Now to counter absorbing Susano'o, which is kinda dumb, but whatever. Kisame absorbed KB's chakra over an entire fight that took like 3-4 chapters, he didn't just swing once and boom all of KB's chakra is gone. Susano'o would be one attack, and you are trying to convince me that he could fully absorb it with his eyes closed. Another couple of feats that could be a counter is Susano'o from what I have seen isn't even based on its user's chakra. Since Itachi used it agaisnt Sasuke when he was out of chakra, same for Sasuke against Raikage. If Kisame isn't able to full absorb Susano'o on its attack, he gets Sealed.

long as you give it back later of course xD

Green.

Yuuta

11-28-2009, 07:08 PM

Who are the 2 people who downrepped me? Im not following JUST Kisame and Rocklee, I also moved Kakuzu up, and moved some others up/down after looking at the arguments from other users. You mad because I moved Hidan below Asuma or something? And the one who said "About time this happened" what are you talking about?

If you're gonna downrep me on a list I spent at least half an hour on, why don't you come out and say it? Im not the vengeful type when it comes to rep, I just wanna know.

Im sorry, Yuuta. I'll counter your argument later, for now I'll move Asuma back where he was originally.

It's alright, don't worry about it. But man, by debaters seem to be quitting on me alot lately.
I'm sorry about your situation, I did not down rep you. You can't do that in a debate, people are bound to have opposing views. It's just not right. :|

Anyway, I'll now be arguing for Konan...If you want to hear it. I don't think deidara330 is going to give me a response...A compromise, is a compromise, I suppose.

Anyway, I think Konan should be safetly seated below Sasuke. I know that's a HUGE jump...so lemme get to it.

Suigetsu Hozuki. All righty. In a swarm of paper, Suigetsu can take out some of the pieces by swinging his huge sword around, but he cannot defend from all sides. The paper will cling to his blade, as well, making it harder and harder to swing, so he'll have to use his great water arm to try to keep up. However, that's a jutsu which would result in him exhausting his chakra even faster. Konan easily replenishes the paper lost and keeps the flow coming. He would most likely be overwhelmed by all the paper, and his sword would be blanketed as well. Konan does not even have to attack, but suffocate him.
Suigetsu might use his hydration jutsu to shake off a few pieces of paper - but every time he's done it, (unless he was attacked by lightning, etc) it's only been a part of his body that turned into water and the rest stayed intact, so the paper would still get him. Everytime he was completely water it was not on his own will, he was either recupperating or being held captive, and their was excess water and air circulating so he could breathe. With only himself, he would still suffocate. Even if he managed to turn completely to water, the paper still holds him in.
If he enters his watery wave mode Konan simply flies above it.

Kimimaro. Is almost entirely close range. If Konan flies above, he will have no way to hurt her. His finger bone bullets are dodged by her splitting into a paper swarm, he might be able to take a few pieces out, though. If Konan comes at Kimimaro in her swarm, he might be able to take out a few pieces of paper with his sword, but he'll still be blanketed. His bone jutsu might be able to pierce some paper, but it won't free him. Now Konan rains down her spears. Kimimaro could form a bone membrane, but he can't keep it up forever, so he'd have to go to stage 2. The fight wouldn't really change, as he's got no way to hurt her. He might be able to repel her for awhile with his braken dance, but it'll be ineffective on her as she easily flies above it. He'll be blanketed again, and even though we're discounting his disease, he can't keep up his curse mark forever, so his defensive membrane would fade for lack of chakra and Konan would defeat him.

Yamato. Konan easily dodges Yamato's wood style and earth style by splitting into paper and seeping through the cracks. Her paper overwhelms him, he can repel some attacks with wood transformations, but he's most likely just suffocated.

Danzo. Only has about 1 move, his wind blades may cut a few pieces of paper, but Konan still overwhelms him, he's not shown enough skill to beat off a swarm.

Jugo CMS2. His only real way to hurt Konan is his chakra cannons. When he's blanketed, he'll most likely repel the paper in front of him and in the circular radius around him, but the majority of the swarm still exists, and he'll just be blanketed again and suffocated.

Rock Lee 5G. He still has no real way to hurt Konan, he can zoom around and punch the paper, but it just flutters. He can't do it for long, Konan easily blankets him and stabs him.

Might Guy. Same deal as Rock Lee. His taijutsu doesn't hurt Konan and leaves his vulnerable for reciprocal blanketing. He can use the Morning Peacock to repel some paper, but as there's really nothing to pound on, it's a pretty useless attack on Konan.

5th Mizukage. Might actually be an interesting fight. Her lava might destroy some paper, and her mist will too, but she hasn't shown a way to dispel blanketing, and will probably be stabbed while her movements are restricted. With Konan's replenishing rate of paper, it doesn't look like the Mizukage can keep up.

Tsunade. Same deal with all the taijutsu users, Konan's unaffected. Regeneration saves her once from being stabbed, but after than Tsunade's finished. Katsuyu may stir things up, but Konan most likely defeats Katsuyu her with her paper spear barrage.

Chiyo. Mother and Father are no match for Konan's paper, the puppets are most likely weighed down and destroyed by weapons. If Chiyo's blanketed then, she's finished. If she gets her ten puppets out, none of them really affects Konan. Many use taijutsu, so their attacks are pointless, the paper blankets them and destroys them. The two with the chakra blades can only do it when both are together, when the useless one is destroyed, the attacks end. The suction puppets are no match for Konan's paper spears, they're can also be avoided with a paper clone. Chiyo herself is no match for Konan's paper.

Kakashi. In the manga, he can't use fire style, so rule that one out. His earth style is negated since Konan can fly. His water style won't really have an effect on Konan. His lightning stlye should be able to cut some of Konan's paper, but not a very affectable amount. Samui could warp a few pieces of paper away. Other than that, Kakashi's caught and suffocated, or stabbed with a paper spear.

Gaara w/Shukaku. His air attack deals blunt force, which won't really hurt Konan. It also shows less reformative ability, so Konan could most likely wound it with her paper spears. She avoids most of his attacks by flying, and one hit on Gaara and it's over.

Since I don't know whether his Sasuke is current, has MS, Curse Mark, or something else, I'll stop here for now. Once I find out what this Sasuke can do, I'll probably start arguing again.
Oh, and please don't leave! We could get nowhere without you! And surely your tier list will keep things interesting around here, right? :D

icy-j

11-28-2009, 07:25 PM

Yuuta

11-28-2009, 07:35 PM

The Sasuke your talking about is just base, no MS or Curse Mark. Chidori techniques and Summons. Same for Naruto after him, but personally I think Gaara with Shukaku would be a lot harder then what you just mentioned. He can also fly, and his shukaku shield I can't see being penetrated by her paper. It was able to keep up with Lee in gates. Not to mention the damage he was able to take with his sand layer.

Not sure, but couldn't Gaara also go into possesion mode also. Just noticed him there, but he should also be above base Sasuke, and base Naruto.

Oh, ok.
And Opps, I refuted the wrong Gaara. I thought that was Gaara with Shukaku unleashed, not him with it still in his body. Opps, gotta edit that.
EDIT: Wait a minute, are you sure about that? Regular Gaara seems to be in right place.

icy-j

11-28-2009, 07:55 PM

Oh, ok.
And Opps, I refuted the wrong Gaara. I thought that was Gaara with Shukaku unleashed, not him with it still in his body. Opps, gotta edit that.
EDIT: Wait a minute, are you sure about that? Regular Gaara seems to be in right place.

Hmm I might be wrong, but isn't that regular Gaara without shukaku in him. Idk, I'll let Kuromaki explain that.

Yuuta

11-28-2009, 08:42 PM

Right, well, Base Sasuke and Naruto.
Personally I don't see how Onoki gets past boss summons. I think he should be below base Sasuke and Naruto and Gaara with Shukaku unleashed.
That being said, I think Konan beats him. He's shown the ability to destroy things, but Konan has a much greater range than that. He can resist blanketing with his petrifying attack, but Konan's paper will just come back again. Also, it would be very easy to attack him with a paper spear, etc, and defeat him after his jutsu. His speed and stamina haven't shown to be that great.
I think base Sasuke should be above Base Naruto. His sharingan allows him to keep up with alot of his moves and defend competently. Also Kirin destroys him.
Konan beats base Naruto, though. He hasn't shown the ability to through the Rasen shuriken not in sage mode, so his wind rasenshuriken would most likely just destroy a few pieces of paper. Boss summons really can't hurt her, and they might be beaten by her paper spear barrage.
I think Konan beats Base Sasuke as well. Sasuke's sharingan can't follow her attacks as she is paper and has no muscles. His chidori won't really have any effect, it along with his sword might cut a few pieces of paper, but Konan's replenishing speed overrules it. Chidori senbon only covers a certain direction, and chidori stream is relatively small. It would keep him from being blanketed for awhile, however. His fire style attacks are really overruled by the sheer amount of Konan's paper, and his only defense against her attacks are not in his base form. He would most likely be caught, at least in his feat, and stabbed.
Konan beats Might Guy in 6 gates as well, he's got no way to hurt her, and Morning Peacock would just hit a few pieces of paper...
With Tobirama, water style doesn't really affect Konan...
Hiruzen's staff won't work on paper, his shuriken shadow clones are canceled by Konan's paper spears, his earth wall will do little to nothing, and his fire attack is easily avoided, and he has nothing to grab onto to seal a soul.
Konan can fly above many of Gaara's sand jutsu, but can most likely not get through his defense. If he wastes too much chakra trying to catch her, however, she may very well be able to split up and get through the hole in his defense. However, I'm fine with Konan sitting below Gaara.
If not, she can beat Shukaku, the wind attack gives off blunt force that won't really hurt Konan, just repel some paper. It also didn't have as much regenerative power as Gaara with him, so he'd probably be wounded by Konan's paper spears.
I also think Konan beats Deidara, for the most part she can avoid most of his explosives by splitting into paper, catch him on his bird, and stab him. C4 won't work on her, as she has no lungs. Also, the mini-explosives didn't destroy innanimate objects, so she'd be safe as paper.
Konan could probably get past Kakuzu as well, he would have no way to hurt her and would have to bring out his hearts. She could avoid most of his elemental attacks, they were very straightforward, and avoidable by people like Shikamaru, so Konan could probably get rid off them with her paper spears.
There is no way, however, just no way, she gets past Naruto 4 tails. It just doesn't happen. :|
Wow, that's quite alot of Konan. Sorry about that.

Yuuta

11-28-2009, 08:46 PM

I think Shizune should go above Anko. Shizune's shown better speed, and I don't think Anko survives poison fog.

Kuromaki

11-28-2009, 09:36 PM

Oh snap! That IS a lot of Konan. I might counter those later since those are huge, but for now.

@icy-j: So it turns out that I agree with you on Itachi beating Kisame but only because of his weakness to Genjutsu, but that would be putting Itachi above Killa Bee.

Genjutsu doesn't work on him because his biju, with whom he has a better bond, disturbs it. Ammy is a short range attack and Itachi won't normally use it at first iirc, also Bee with his speed should be able to dodge it, even though it got his Tailed Beast form last time, it was a huge target for Ammy, and he still substituted out of it. Susano'o's sword can still be dodged considering Bee's speed especially in tailed beast mode, while Susano'o sucks out Itachi's life force.

@Yuuta: On Suigetsu vs. Asuma, how does Suigetsu come out from the explosion from Ash Pile Burning unharmed? Asuma is pretty fast and strong himself, possibly faster than Suigetsu, and Suigetsu does get tired swinging around that sword.

I'll move Konan above Suigetsu.

On Kimimaro vs. Konan, how does she hurt him? He survived pressure under the ground from Gaara's giant sand burial.

And how fast does Konan replenish paper again?

I'm moving Shizune up but only because of her better stats and speed.

btw, the Sasuke and Naruto who are lower on the list start off in their base forms. Gaara with Shukaku is Gaara before the demon got extracted, but he's only below current Gaara because current Gaara has shown faster and stronger sand if I'm not mistaken.

icy-j

11-28-2009, 10:04 PM

@icy-j: So it turns out that I agree with you on Itachi beating Kisame but only because of his weakness to Genjutsu, but that would be putting Itachi above Killa Bee.

Genjutsu doesn't work on him because his biju, with whom he has a better bond, disturbs it. Ammy is a short range attack and Itachi won't normally use it at first iirc, also Bee with his speed should be able to dodge it, even though it got his Tailed Beast form last time, it was a huge target for Ammy, and he still substituted out of it. Susano'o's sword can still be dodged considering Bee's speed especially in tailed beast mode, while Susano'o sucks out Itachi's life force.

Well, there is plenty of people that are behind a certain person, because they have a bad matchup, but can beat people that are ahead of the person they can't beat. Should be the same for Kisame. What about MS Sasuke, debatable that he could beat Itachi and Kisame now that Itachi gave him all his abilities. Sasuke also has the lightning advantage in a fight with Kisame, and all the same advantages Itachi would have.

Itachi does show better speed and Tai against Curse Mark Sasuke, but now Sasuke has MS, Amatersu with better control, his own Susano'o, chidori techniques, and can counter all of Itachi's gen. Just curious about what your opinions are about these 2 fights for MS Sasuke.

321zigzag1

11-28-2009, 10:06 PM

Well, there is plenty of people that are behind a certain person, because they have a bad matchup, but can beat people that are ahead of the person they can't beat. Should be the same for Kisame. What about MS Sasuke, debatable that he could beat Itachi and Kisame now that Itachi gave him all his abilities. Sasuke also have the lightning advantage in a fight with Kisame, and all the same advantages Itachi would have.

Itachi does show better speed and Tai against Curse Mark Sasuke, but now Sasuke has MS, Amatersu with better control, his own Susano'o, chidori techniques, and can counter all of Itachi's gen. Just curious about what your opinions are about these 2 fights for MS Sasuke.

MS Sasuke > Kisame mainly because of the genjutsu and lightning varied moves.

Itachi for now still seems to be stronger than MS Sasuke.
Sasuke hasn't mastered Susanoo completely for example
Itachi never gave Sasuke his abilities. He only gave Sasuke Amaterasu Transcript Seal to be used against Madara.
Sleepyfan translation error.

icy-j

11-28-2009, 10:10 PM

MS Sasuke > Kisame mainly because of the genjutsu and lightning varied moves.

Itachi for now still seems to be stronger than MS Sasuke.
Sasuke hasn't mastered Susanoo completely for example
Itachi never gave Sasuke his abilities. He only gave Sasuke Amaterasu Transcript Seal to be used against Madara.
Sleepyfan translation error.

True about Susano'o, but I thought that was how Sasuke got his MS abilitys was from Itachi. Could be wrong. I know he put the Amaterasu seal, but I figured that was how Sasuke got Amaterasu and Susano'o.

321zigzag1

11-28-2009, 10:13 PM

True about Susano'o, but I thought that was how Sasuke got his MS abilitys was from Itachi. Could be wrong. I know he put the Amaterasu seal, but I figured that was how Sasuke got Amaterasu and Susano'o.

Sasuke awakened his own Amaterasu *emotional moment* against Hachibi

Sasuke's susanoo seems to lack the spiritual items.

Also many people still believe Itachi > Sasuke because ITachi was dying sick and wanted to lose yet won the fight against Sasuke.
Sasuke still needs to show greater skill in my opinion.

Now base Sasuke > Base Itachi but Itachi is better skilled shinobi.

Lone Wolf

11-28-2009, 10:15 PM

Why is Danzo so low on the List? Last I've checked he has the Doflamingo Hax. xD

321zigzag1

11-28-2009, 10:18 PM

Why is Danzo so low on the List? Last I've checked he has the Doflamingo Hax. xD

he needs more screentime and feats

Lone Wolf

11-28-2009, 10:32 PM

I failed to see the reason that Onoki is above Kakashi =/ He hasn't shown alot of feats and Lightning > Earth. His best technique so far is that Dust Technique which can easily be dodged by going underground.

icy-j

11-28-2009, 10:39 PM

Sasuke awakened his own Amaterasu *emotional moment* against Hachibi

Sasuke's susanoo seems to lack the spiritual items.

Also many people still believe Itachi > Sasuke because ITachi was dying sick and wanted to lose yet won the fight against Sasuke.
Sasuke still needs to show greater skill in my opinion.

Now base Sasuke > Base Itachi but Itachi is better skilled shinobi.

KK, and ya I know Itachi would of won that fight against Sasuke, if he wasn't sick, half blind, and holding back, but that was also against Curse Mark Sasuke. I was just curious about the matchup now that they both have similiar techniques.

I still think MS Sasuke has a good matchup against Kisame though.

Yuuta

11-28-2009, 10:40 PM

Oh snap! That IS a lot of Konan. I might counter those later since those are huge, but for now.

@Yuuta: On Suigetsu vs. Asuma, how does Suigetsu come out from the explosion from Ash Pile Burning unharmed? Asuma is pretty fast and strong himself, possibly faster than Suigetsu, and Suigetsu does get tired swinging around that sword.

I'll move Konan above Suigetsu.

On Kimimaro vs. Konan, how does she hurt him? He survived pressure under the ground from Gaara's giant sand burial.

And how fast does Konan replenish paper again?

I'm moving Shizune up but only because of her better stats and speed.

btw, the Sasuke and Naruto who are lower on the list start off in their base forms. Gaara with Shukaku is Gaara before the demon got extracted, but he's only below current Gaara because current Gaara has shown faster and stronger sand if I'm not mistaken.

:D Sorry again! It's all just food for thought, refute if you want.

Asuma VS Suigetsu. I don't think Suigetsu would be harmed, but not very seriously at all, since the hot ash won't really affect his watery hydration jutsu. When it explodes, I don't think he'll be that affected, since the explosions are fire based. And yeah, but Suigetsu can use his water arm jutsu to counter.

Yay! Sorry, Suigetsu.

Most likely repeated suffocation, she doesn't need to waste attacks on trying to penetrate his bone membrane, but she can easily out-wait him, she's got a boatload of chakra, and his membrane never lasted that long, he was always sure to re-emerge soon, which re-inforces the suffocation thing.

Pretty fast, actually, when she made all that paper to fight Jiraya. Ch 372, pg 3-4 she goes from a burned torso to a longer torso, longer arms, giant wings, and alot of spears. Even faster in the anime, but that doesn't count here.

Yay! Sorry Anko.

Right, that makes sense, I understand. :D

And just to make myself seem more humble, let me concede that all that Konan is based on the variety of Konan's jutsu. On overall abilities, I think Konan should rest somewhere in the Gaara(w/Shukaku)-Chiyo area.

Kuromaki

11-28-2009, 11:27 PM

@icy-j: Itachi>Sasuke still, since he's shown better speed, and really the only MS technique Sasuke has that is superior to Itachi's is Ammy.

Kisame would've beaten Bee had it not been for the Raikage coming in at the last moment, and Bee>>>>Sasuke, so Sasuke can't be moved up now.

@Lone Wolf: Danzo lacks feats. On Onoki vs. Kakashi, it really depends on the range, since Onoki hasn't shown many speed feats. Though Gaara, Naruto and Sasuke are arguably>Kakashi (they start in base there but they can still transform)

@Yuuta: Wouldn't the explosion hurt Suigetsu though, he can't just absorb it especially since he has no water source, and he might even evaporate, which would be bad news...

Also Kimimaro can just make bone blades grow out of his body, that takes care of the swarms of paper.

icy-j

11-29-2009, 12:02 AM

@icy-j: Itachi>Sasuke still, since he's shown better speed, and really the only MS technique Sasuke has that is superior to Itachi's is Ammy.

Kisame would've beaten Bee had it not been for the Raikage coming in at the last moment, and Bee>>>>Sasuke, so Sasuke can't be moved up now.

I am not saying Itachi or Sasuke can beat Bee. However even though Kisame can beat Bee. He can't beat Itachi or Sasuke. Therefore he shouldn't be ahead of them. Like I said before there are several people who can't get past the person ahead of them, but can beat others that can beat that person that they can't.

Kuromaki

11-29-2009, 10:04 AM

I am not saying Itachi or Sasuke can beat Bee. However even though Kisame can beat Bee. He can't beat Itachi or Sasuke. Therefore he shouldn't be ahead of them. Like I said before there are several people who can't get past the person ahead of them, but can beat others that can beat that person that they can't.
Yeah but then moving Kisame down would make the list all messed up so he's just staying there. Same thing with Hidan. Though I still think Kisame stands a good chance against them.

Edit: Kankuro moved down

reemus55

11-29-2009, 10:32 AM

reemus55

11-29-2009, 10:37 AM

I also dont think madara is is weaker than pein. Even madara in his weaker state that he is in now, he is still probably stronger than pein. I mean, if pein was stronger than madara, why would pein be taking orders from madara? Madara needs to be higher than pein. I think madara should be above the nine tailed fox also because he was able to control the nine tailed fox. The nine tailed fox even said that madaras chakra was even more sinister than his own. Madara should be above the nine tailed ofx but below the 10 tailed jubi.

Kuromaki

11-29-2009, 11:38 AM

Why is sage mode naruto lower than jiraiya? Jiraiya in sage mode could only beat 4 of the six paths of pain and that was difficult for him. Sage mode naruto defeated all of the the paths except deva path and he did it in like maybe 2 minutes easy. Even if jiraiya did know about the rinnegan he still would not have been able to defeat all six paths of pein. Sage mode naruto defeated pein by himself fair and square. Say what?! Sage mode naruto should be higher than jiraiya
SM Naruto had prep time, plot, summons, and knowledge on his side. Even then, Pain could've beaten him had it not been for Minato and the fact that he needed to capture Kyubi. Naruto was still having difficulty with him even though he had the unfair advantage. Also Pain was weakened because he used a big Shinra Tensei before fighting Naruto.
I also dont think madara is is weaker than pein. Even madara in his weaker state that he is in now, he is still probably stronger than pein. I mean, if pein was stronger than madara, why would pein be taking orders from madara? Madara needs to be higher than pein. I think madara should be above the nine tailed fox also because he was able to control the nine tailed fox. The nine tailed fox even said that madaras chakra was even more sinister than his own. Madara should be above the nine tailed ofx but below the 10 tailed jubi.
That would be current Madara, not past Madara who is the Madara on the list.

Added Current Madara.

kazzim13

11-29-2009, 01:24 PM

The biggest reason Jiraiya lost was because he killed 3 and thought he was done. Note what Pain said to Jiraiya when he took his arm. Also at some point after the fight Pain said Jiraiya could have possibly taken him down if he knew there were 6 from the begining even without the information that Naruto had gotten from Jiraiya and the other Konoha ninja that fought the different pain bodies.

Yuuta

11-29-2009, 02:42 PM

@Yuuta: Wouldn't the explosion hurt Suigetsu though, he can't just absorb it especially since he has no water source, and he might even evaporate, which would be bad news...[/COLOR]

Also Kimimaro can just make bone blades grow out of his body, that takes care of the swarms of paper.

LOL! That'd be pretty hilarious, but since the explosions are fire based and not collaborated with anything his hydration jutsu would be able to take them, and would probably emerge watery from the blunt force of the explosions, but pretty much unharmed.

Not really, he's shown to be able to grow several out of his joints, and torso, but never his head, and that's all Konan needs. Additionally, these may pierce the paper intially but nothing's stopping them from being blanketed as well.

Yuuta

11-29-2009, 02:52 PM

Oh, and we never covered the Shi issue, right?
Well I'm just assuming that he has a kunai on him somewhere to kill those in genjutsu. But the speed he's shown hasn't been great, but he's shown good jutsu knowledge, medical, and sensory, but that won't really help him out.
How about below Kurenai? Or below Jugo, since he fell for the genjutsu.

Kuromaki

11-29-2009, 02:55 PM

LOL! That'd be pretty hilarious, but since the explosions are fire based and not collaborated with anything his hydration jutsu would be able to take them, and would probably emerge watery from the blunt force of the explosions, but pretty much unharmed.

Not really, he's shown to be able to grow several out of his joints, and torso, but never his head, and that's all Konan needs. Additionally, these may pierce the paper intially but nothing's stopping them from being blanketed as well.
So Suigetsu would put it out or something? Most likely it will put him in that jello-y state, the heat and impact of the ash and explosion should do something to him.

So you're telling me Kimimaro can survive being forced under ground but not Konan's paper?
Oh, and we never covered the Shi issue, right?
Well I'm just assuming that he has a kunai on him somewhere to kill those in genjutsu. But the speed he's shown hasn't been great, but he's shown good jutsu knowledge, medical, and sensory, but that won't really help him out.
How about below Kurenai? Or below Jugo, since he fell for the genjutsu.
I'll add him above Shino I guess? The above characters can do some major damage to him.

Yuuta

11-29-2009, 03:10 PM

So Suigetsu would put it out or something? Most likely it will put him in that jello-y state, the heat and impact of the ash and explosion should do something to him.

So you're telling me Kimimaro can survive being forced under ground but not Konan's paper?

I'll add him above Shino I guess? The above characters can do some major damage to him.

I'm not sure, it didn't have enough force to knock Hidan out. And that's just it, I think Suigetsu's hydration will nullify the heat, and the impact would be tanked just like all the rest of the blunt force he's been subjected to, poor guy. And Suigetsu was only in his jello-mode due to the 8 tailed super blast, I don't think Asuma's move really compares.

Whoa whoa whoa! It's an entirely different concept! Gaara's attacks were based on crushing Kimimaro with pressure that he could overcome with his bone membrane. Suffocation was just an added bonus. Kimimaro was able to keep his lungs intact with a bone membrane, but still needed to breathe, so he would hold his breath until he reemerged. When suffocation's the primary goal, however, it's entirely different.

Yeah, that works. Thanks again for adding him! :D

icy-j

11-29-2009, 04:41 PM

Yeah but then moving Kisame down would make the list all messed up so he's just staying there. Same thing with Hidan. Though I still think Kisame stands a good chance against them.

Why would it mess it up? Wouldn't it actually fix it since Kisame can't beat Itachi or MS Sasuke? If you believe he stands a good chance against them, then why would you agree that he would lose. :roll:

Kuromaki

11-29-2009, 04:58 PM

I'm not sure, it didn't have enough force to knock Hidan out. And that's just it, I think Suigetsu's hydration will nullify the heat, and the impact would be tanked just like all the rest of the blunt force he's been subjected to, poor guy. And Suigetsu was only in his jello-mode due to the 8 tailed super blast, I don't think Asuma's move really compares.

Whoa whoa whoa! It's an entirely different concept! Gaara's attacks were based on crushing Kimimaro with pressure that he could overcome with his bone membrane. Suffocation was just an added bonus. Kimimaro was able to keep his lungs intact with a bone membrane, but still needed to breathe, so he would hold his breath until he reemerged. When suffocation's the primary goal, however, it's entirely different.

Yeah, that works. Thanks again for adding him! :D
Remember that Suigetsu had a water source when he was hit by the 8 tails blast. Hidan is kinda different from Suigetsu since he doesn't turn to jello...

I never really paid attention to Kimi's abilities so I guess I'll move him down.
Why would it mess it up? Wouldn't it actually fix it since Kisame can't beat Itachi or MS Sasuke? Kisame>Killer Bee>Itachi>Sasuke If you believe he stands a good chance against them, then why would you agree that he would lose. :roll:
Don't go rolling your eyes at me >_> Their biggest chance is Genjutsu, that is the only reason I agreed Kisame might not win. And since Killer Bee can beat them, but Kisame can beat Killer Bee, that puts Kisame above them on the list.

321zigzag1

11-29-2009, 05:04 PM

Remember that Suigetsu had a water source when he was hit by the 8 tails blast. Hidan is kinda different from Suigetsu since he doesn't turn to jello...

I never really paid attention to Kimi's abilities so I guess I'll move him down.

Don't go rolling your eyes at me >_> Their biggest chance is Genjutsu, that is the only reason I agreed Kisame might not win. And since Killer Bee can beat them, but Kisame can beat Killer Bee, that puts Kisame above them on the list.

from what I know ITachi would do better against Killer Bee than Sasuke.
I think Itachi can defeat Killerbee. It is possible.

icy-j

11-29-2009, 05:05 PM

Don't go rolling your eyes at me >_> Their biggest chance is Genjutsu, that is the only reason I agreed Kisame might not win. And since Killer Bee can beat them, but Kisame can beat Killer Bee, that puts Kisame above them on the list.

I don't know, so according to you if a person would lose to two people ahead of him, but beats one person ahead of those two, he can skip over them? If you want I can give some examples of other people that can do this also, I just figured you had to be able to beat EVERY person below you before you could proceed onwards. :lol:

By saying Kisame>KB>Itachi>MS Sasuke, you are also saying Kisame>Itachi and Kisame>MS Sasuke, which Kisame can't beat them.

Kuromaki

11-29-2009, 05:13 PM

from what I know ITachi would do better against Killer Bee than Sasuke.
I think Itachi can defeat Killerbee. It is possible.
Its possible, but especially with his Tailed Beast Transformations Killer Bee would be tough for him to beat.
I don't know, so according to you if a person would lose to two people ahead of him, but beats one person ahead of those two, he can skip over them? If you want I can give some examples of other people that can do this also, I just figured you had to be able to beat EVERY person below you before you could proceed onwards. :lol:

By saying Kisame>KB>Itachi>MS Sasuke, your are also saying Kisame>Itachi and Kisame>MS Sasuke, which Kisame can't beat them.
I'm pretty sure Kisame CAN beat them but it depends on the scenario.

Also since Kisame almost killed Killer Bee, but Killer Bee roflstomped a Sasuke with Team Taka, then that should put Kisame above them because of his abilities.

icy-j

11-29-2009, 05:24 PM

Its possible, but especially with his Tailed Beast Transformations Killer Bee would be tough for him to beat.

I'm pretty sure Kisame CAN beat them but it depends on the scenario.

Also since Kisame almost killed Killer Bee, but Killer Bee roflstomped a Sasuke with Team Taka, then that should put Kisame above them because of his abilities.

I don't see any scenario, where he could win, unless you want to go as far and say in the middle of the ocean or in a very dark cave. Any open field battle Itachi or Sasuke wins.

Kisame really hasn't show anywhere near as good abilities compared to Itachi or Sasuke. All he has shown is bubble, Samehada, water clones, water prison, and a couple of water jutsu. Amaterusu is one of the top ninjutsu, Tsukuyomi is one of the top gen. Susano'o, all the other gen, Sasuke's chidori techniques, shadow clones, MS, summons, fire techniques, and I am probally missing several others these are just from the top of my head.

Kisame just had a good matchup against KB, and not to mention KB was trying to save his friends during half the fight, while getting his chakra absorbed, and he never went into full transformation ( I believe). Tai is a bad matchup against Kisame when he is merged with Samehada.

321zigzag1

11-29-2009, 05:27 PM

Kuromaki

11-29-2009, 05:30 PM

I don't see any scenario, where he could win, unless you want to go as far and say in the middle of the ocean or in a very dark cave. Any open field battle Itachi or Sasuke wins.

Kisame really hasn't show anywhere near as good abilities compared to Itachi or Sasuke. All he has shown is bubble, Samehada, water clones, water prison, and a couple of water jutsu. Amaterusu is one of the top ninjutsu, Tsukuyomi is one of the top gen. Susano'o, all the other gen, Sasuke's chidori techniques, shadow clones, MS, summons, fire techniques, and I am probally missing several others these are just from the top of my head.

Kisame just had a good matchup against KB, and not to mention KB was trying to save his friends during half the fight, while getting his chakra absorbed, and he never went into full transformation ( I believe). Tai is a bad matchup against Kisame when he is merged with Samehada.
Kisame could absorb their Jutsu with Samehada and heal, or dodge, if he uses the water bubble then they would have a lot of difficulty getting around. Water>Fire, Samehada might be able to dispel Genjutsu depending on its intelligence, except for Tsukuyomi.

Bee never chose to go into his actual Hachibi Transformation, but he did use his human Hachibi form, and Kisame survived everything else, not to mention Bee was saved by Raikage at the end.
Actually Kisame defeated Killer Bee because Kisame had a counter. That one was about the matchups
itachi susanoo can defeat fulll form hachibi.
Thats only if KB goes into full form which he didn't against Kisame.

icy-j

11-29-2009, 05:36 PM

Kisame could absorb their Jutsu with Samehada and heal, or dodge, if he uses the water bubble then they would have a lot of difficulty getting around. Water>Fire, Samehada might be able to dispel Genjutsu depending on its intelligence, except for Tsukuyomi.

Bee never chose to go into his actual Hachibi Transformation, but he did use his human Hachibi form, and Kisame survived everything else, not to mention Bee was saved by Raikage at the end.

Thats only if KB goes into full form which he didn't against Kisame.

I was just mentioning them showing more better abilities. Amaterusu > Water. Tsukuyomi like you mentioned > Kisame. Susano'o > Kisame. Samehade could dispel, but it wouldn't be an instant dispell giving them time to get off Amaterusu, get out of bubble, or get Kisame in a Tsukuyomi ending the fight. I don't want to go back into this debate for the fifth time, so I just did simple counters.

Kisame survived everything else? Didn't KB attack maybe twice and one ink to try to get away. >< Like I said KB spent half the fight trying to save his friends while getting his chakra absorbed. A bad matchup and scenario for KB.

Yuuta

11-29-2009, 05:40 PM

Remember that Suigetsu had a water source when he was hit by the 8 tails blast. Hidan is kinda different from Suigetsu since he doesn't turn to jello...

I never really paid attention to Kimi's abilities so I guess I'll move him down.

True, and true. But I don't think it's fair to generalize his durability from chakra blasts from that chidori since he's weak to lightning... And also ture, haha. But I think his weakness to chidori with his water makes him strong against fire.

Yay! Sorry, Kimimaro.

Kakashi-Hatake

11-29-2009, 07:21 PM

It looks like you copied it from UNS.

Kuromaki

11-30-2009, 05:41 AM

I was just mentioning them showing more better abilities. Amaterusu > Water. Tsukuyomi like you mentioned > Kisame. Susano'o > Kisame. Samehade could dispel, but it wouldn't be an instant dispell giving them time to get off Amaterusu, get out of bubble, or get Kisame in a Tsukuyomi ending the fight. I don't want to go back into this debate for the fifth time, so I just did simple counters.

Kisame survived everything else? Didn't KB attack maybe twice and one ink to try to get away. >< Like I said KB spent half the fight trying to save his friends while getting his chakra absorbed. A bad matchup and scenario for KB.
Couldn't Kisame just absorb the chakra out of Ammy and Susano'o, and heal from Ammy. I doubt they have 6 tails worth of chakra.

Yeah but the attacks hit and Kisame survived.
True, and true. But I don't think it's fair to generalize his durability from chakra blasts from that chidori since he's weak to lightning... And also ture, haha. But I think his weakness to chidori with his water makes him strong against fire.

Yay! Sorry, Kimimaro.
I don't think he can put all of that out, and he'd have to turn himself into water anyways.
It looks like you copied it from UNS.
I don't even go to UNS, lol

Yuuta

12-03-2009, 01:15 PM

icy-j

12-03-2009, 09:57 PM

Couldn't Kisame just absorb the chakra out of Ammy and Susano'o, and heal from Ammy. I doubt they have 6 tails worth of chakra.

Yeah but the attacks hit and Kisame survived.

I already countered these several times in this thread alone, not to mention the other threads over these fights. Absorb Ammy? How when in the manga it was stated it couldn't be put out. I don't even think Amaterusu needs chakra to burn, so I don't know what you are talking about. I am pretty sure the only chakra needed for it is to use it initially, after that it is just black flames that can't be put out. Heal through Amaterusu? When it can't be put out? enough said there.

Once again I don't get how you guys overrate Samehada, so much. Being able to fully absorb 2 spirit weapons and Susano'o after one attack? Really I mean if Samehada is this powerful go ahead and put Kisame as the top of the list. Seriously the more I debate this fight the more I am starting to see overrating and how much Itachi or Sasuke would win this fight without much difficulty.

Once again, repeating myself Kisame absorbed KB's chakra over 3-5 chapters not after one attack. Susano'o would be one attack, and Kisame gets sealed, I mean really I don't know if you just hate Itachi and Sasuke or what, but this fight is pretty cut and dry.

Like I said, by how much you are overrating Kisame's absorbing and healing ability, then put him at the top of the list. He should be able to fully absorb each of pein's bodys with one attack, if according to you he can fully absorb 2 spirit weapons and Susano'o in one attack. If he can heal while Amaterusu is burning his body, even though Raikage couldn't even stand up against it with Raiton Armor, he should be able to heal through any damage. (This is how you are overrating Kisame, see my points, I'll let you counter before I state more fights that Kisame can win with this overrating. :roll:)

Kuromaki

12-04-2009, 05:49 AM

Well he seems to be able to activate the jutsu when he's about to be hit, when he's not prepared for it he can't - Example when Karin kicked the door down on him. I know Hydration never allows for a complete transformation into water, but I'm sure his feet or something would still be formed when the explosion happens, since all that hit Hidan was on his side.

In other news...
Yamato cannot beat Konan, no way. None of his restrictive wood style attacks work on her, as she splits into paper and splits through the cracks. He was little to no chance against her.

And Danzo has about 1 move. He hasn't shown the skill to be able to take on Konan.
His feet? Maybe, but how does the water from him put out most of that explosion?

I'll move Konan up but I may have to move her back down after this Danzo business.
I already countered these several times in this thread alone, not to mention the other threads over these fights. Absorb Ammy? How when in the manga it was stated it couldn't be put out. I don't even think Amaterusu needs chakra to burn, so I don't know what you are talking about. I am pretty sure the only chakra needed for it is to use it initially, after that it is just black flames that can't be put out. Heal through Amaterusu? When it can't be put out? enough said there.

Once again I don't get how you guys overrate Samehada, so much. Being able to fully absorb 2 spirit weapons and Susano'o after one attack? Really I mean if Samehada is this powerful go ahead and put Kisame as the top of the list. Seriously the more I debate this fight the more I am starting to see overrating and how much Itachi or Sasuke would win this fight without much difficulty.

Once again, repeating myself Kisame absorbed KB's chakra over 3-5 chapters not after one attack. Susano'o would be one attack, and Kisame gets sealed, I mean really I don't know if you just hate Itachi and Sasuke or what, but this fight is pretty cut and dry.

Like I said, by how much you are overrating Kisame's absorbing and healing ability, then put him at the top of the list. He should be able to fully absorb each of pein's bodys with one attack, if according to you he can fully absorb 2 spirit weapons and Susano'o in one attack. If he can heal while Amaterusu is burning his body, even though Raikage couldn't even stand up against it with Raiton Armor, he should be able to heal through any damage. (This is how you are overrating Kisame, see my points, I'll let you counter before I state more fights that Kisame can win with this overrating. :roll:)
I did say that Itachi can beat Kisame but not Sasuke. Kisame tanked a 7 Tailed Lariat and healed from it so he could take a lot of damage from them. Chidori Stream should hurt Sasuke too and he won't use something like Ammy first. With Susano'o, most of it should be absorbed, but if Kisame can't then he can dodge the sword, he kept up with KB, who's fast enough to avoid it.

About Pain, he'll have to get a hold of the bodies to actually absorb their chakra like everyone else, he can't do that if he's being Shinra Tensei'd or Bansho Tenin'd.

Still can't move them up though since it's arguable that Sasori, KB, and Raikage>Itachi and Sasuke and Kisame happens to be>Sasori, KB, and Raikage.

Edit: Used Raikage and Mizukage's real names.

Yuuta

12-04-2009, 08:50 AM

Not put it all out, but diffuse it when it hits him, that's all he really needs.

Thank you, and that's very true - but I'd say its more of moving Danzo up. Probably quite a bit.

I really think Konan needs to be in area ranging from Under Gaara with Shukaku to Under Mei.
Jugo CMS2 has shown a way to repel her paper from a circular radius and in front of him. It's also very possible for the paper to just dodge, it moved very fast. Nothing's stopping him from just being blanketed again. And the tendrils that fired the cannon retreated after 1 use. He'd be overwhelmed and suffocated.
Rock Lee 5G can batter her paper, but still has no real way to hurt her. It's such a strain on him the paper would undoubtdly catch him.
Same real issue with Might Guy. No way to hurt her. If that's base, he can't even use his Morning Peacock, and even that will only batter a few pieces of paper.

With Mei is where the real debates start. (I've just realized this is the block of only powerful kunoichi in the series, there are none afterward. :|)
Mei could undoubtedly melt Konan's paper, and her lava could burn her paper, but from the way she fought Zetsu, she really doesn't have a way to resist being blanketed if Konan's paper comes from all sides. Konan would most likely win with a spear before too much of her paper is destroyed. Then she'd most likely have to fly out of range and shed the paper that's melting.

With Tsunade, she's completely taijutsu and doesn't really have a way to hurt Konan. She can use her regeneration to overrule being stabbed by Konan's weapons, but she can't keep it up very long. Katsuyu's splitting is not very effective against a flying enemy, and her acid is avoided rather easily. Also, Konan's paper spears may very well force Katsuyu to retreat.

And now it gets even harder.

From the way Konan starts off battles, Chiyo wouldn't have a way to hurt her with. Her Mother and Father puppets would be weighed down and destroyed. The ten puppets are where the problems start. Konan could take out the completely taijutsu ones easily. The suction ones would most likely not be able catch all of her paper, or she could avoid them with a paper sub/clone and bomb them from above to stop the jutsu. Also, the seal would stop 1+ pieces of paper if Chiyo was lucky, but other than that it's pretty ineffective. After that, nothing stops Chiyo from being blanketed, suffocated, or stabbed.

I also don't think Kakashi can beat Konan. He can't use fire jutsu in the manga. His lightning jutsu may cut a few pieces of paper, but generally is a waste of chakra against Konan. Water style jutsu doesn't seem to affect Konan negatively. Earth style really has no effect on Konan, who flies. Kamui could warp a few pieces of paper, and once again is generally a waste of chakra against Konan. His sharingan can't read paper, since it has no muscles. He may be able to evade Konan for awhile, but his lack of stamina really gives him little to no way to combat Konan effectively. He would most likely be partially blanketed and stabbed.

I don't think Konan could beat Gaara. Or atleast not easily - She may if he gets careless like in the Deidara fight or the Kimimaro fights and gives her an opening, but other than that, I don't think so. Also, Gaara's feats are generally equal to hers - covering a whole village. So, I think they're about on the same level, so I think she should be under him, I'll stop here.

I think Onoki should be moved down, I don't think he holds anything against Tsunade or Might Guy. Until he gets some more feats, at least.

I also really think Shizune (and possibly Anko) needs to be moved up quite a bit. She's about on Inoichi's level, and he's pretty high considering his lack of jutsu.

And it appears that the Raikage's name is just Ē.

icy-j

12-04-2009, 11:32 AM

I did say that Itachi can beat Kisame but not Sasuke. Kisame tanked a 7 Tailed Lariat and healed from it so he could take a lot of damage from them. Chidori Stream should hurt Sasuke too and he won't use something like Ammy first. With Susano'o, most of it should be absorbed, but if Kisame can't then he can dodge the sword, he kept up with KB, who's fast enough to avoid it.Why not Sasuke? Not only does he have Tsukoyumi, Amaterusu with better control, and Susano'o, but he has the lightning advantage over water. Chidori Stream hurting him, I guess you missed the times he used chidori on himself or when he used Kirin showing how well he can manipulate lightning. Should have a greater effect on Kisame. I still can't believe you actually think Kisame can absorb Susano'o, so funny. Dodge it, did you not see how fast it hit Oro, and not only that Kisame doesn't even know what Susano'o can do. Another thing is Kisame would be either fighting with his eyes closed or trying to avoid eye contact, both making him less likely to avoid it. He kept up with KB lol. Let me correct that statement. It was in the bubble, KB was running away trying to find a way to get his friends out. KB attacked like three times in during the fight that took 5 chapters, I swear this fight is being overrated so much. It wasn't even a clear 1v1, where KB could actually focus on fighting back. Once Kisame got out of the bubble, he was easily speedblitzed showing he can't keep up with KB. How does Kisame even hit Sasuke? His Amaterusu shield not only would kill Kisame, but Kisame can't get past it to absorb anything, not to mention Sharingan to help him dodge most of his attacks also. Sasuke is even a worse matchup for Kisame then Itachi is.

About Pain, he'll have to get a hold of the bodies to actually absorb their chakra like everyone else, he can't do that if he's being Shinra Tensei'd or Bansho Tenin'd. Well according to you he should be able to constantly heal himself if he keeps getting shinra tensei'd or bansho tenin'd. Also by how you are overrating his absorbing ability can't he just absorb them in an instant, and since you think he can match KB's speed then he should be faster then Pein's bodys, and also he is able to absorb Susano'o in one attack (according to you) which is pretty bad, but anyways, then he should only need to get one attack in to absorb a body completely. Another fight shouldn't you put Kisame above nine-tails also. I mean according to you he can absorb 6-8 tails of chakra in one attack. He can also heal himself constantly also, so.....

Still can't move them up though since it's arguable that Sasori, KB, and Raikage>Itachi and Sasuke and Kisame happens to be>Sasori, KB, and Raikage. I still don't see how Kisame gets put above Itachi and Sasuke when he can't get past them. I mean look at what Yuuta is doing for Konan he has to debate every fight above her to move her up. When Kisame gets put above 2 people he can't get past. Dang, I wish KB and Kisame could of just had a real fight, not this dang running away trying to save his friends while he loses chakra , not even being able to fully go into his transformation.

Edit: Used Raikage and Mizukage's real names.

Green.

LilHinataGirl

12-04-2009, 11:40 AM

Because Hinata is on the lowest level.
actually she hasd the 2nd stage byakugan n her dad dosent so actually she is stronger than she looks -_-

Lone Wolf

12-04-2009, 12:37 PM

actually she hasd the 2nd stage byakugan n her dad dosent so actually she is stronger than she looks -_-

http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/NF%20smilies/BakiBg.png

Tell me the chapter where she uses Second Stage Byakugan before I laugh myself to death.

ThePurpleChidori

12-04-2009, 01:36 PM

Why is Konohamaru at the lowest level? He got advanced Rasengan... Blah blah blah. You should seriously know that. He took on a Pain, which most of the characters in that tier couldn't have done.

Kuromaki

12-04-2009, 04:57 PM

Green.
Of course, since Oro was not only caught off guard but his hydra thing also made him easy to see.

If Sasuke pulls off a Tsukuyomi first then yea he should win, but he doesn't show genjutsu first iirc. By 6 tails of chakra I mean six tails of that jinchuriki transformation. Either way Kyubi is too big for Kisame and he could destroy mountains with his tail, so you are really exaggerating my so called overrating of Kisame here.

If KB could've beaten Kisame in the bubble then what could he have done? Touching Kisamehada means that his chakra gets absorbed. In character KB won't start off with the entire Hachibi transformation in the beginning.

Moving Kisame down would be moving him down below the characters he can beat but Itachi and Sasuke can't, thats what there is to it.

BUT I will move Kisame down this time and see what counters come up.
Why is Konohamaru at the lowest level? He got advanced Rasengan... Blah blah blah. You should seriously know that. He took on a Pain, which most of the characters in that tier couldn't have done.
Ooh a Pain, the weakest one. And Konohamaru's Rasengan kinda sucks so...
Not put it all out, but diffuse it when it hits him, that's all he really needs.

Thank you, and that's very true - but I'd say its more of moving Danzo up. Probably quite a bit.

I really think Konan needs to be in area ranging from Under Gaara with Shukaku to Under Mei.
Jugo CMS2 has shown a way to repel her paper from a circular radius and in front of him. It's also very possible for the paper to just dodge, it moved very fast. Nothing's stopping him from just being blanketed again. And the tendrils that fired the cannon retreated after 1 use. He'd be overwhelmed and suffocated.
Hold on there, how does Konan survive the cannons?

Edit: Oh. I see, Yeah that's what Raikage's name is.

Yuuta

12-04-2009, 05:03 PM

Hold on there, how does Konan survive the cannons?

Edit: Oh. I see, Yeah that's what Raikage's name is.

How does she get hit with them is a better question, she's a swarm. They'll repel the paper around him in his circular radius, and most likely destroy the ones in front of him, but she's all around him as a swarm, and could scatter her paper as well.

Kuromaki

12-04-2009, 05:10 PM

How does she get hit with them is a better question, she's a swarm. They'll repel the paper around him in his circular radius, and most likely destroy the ones in front of him, but she's all around him as a swarm, and could scatter her paper as well.
How does she dodge them is an even better question.

Yuuta

12-04-2009, 05:13 PM

How does she dodge them is an even better question.
How does she get hit by them?
They fire in a line straight in front of Jugo.
Konan is a swarm of paper all around him.
A swarm capable of moving very quickly.

ThePurpleChidori

12-04-2009, 05:18 PM

I want to debate in this debate, but I don't wanna go back and read the beginning question. so, good luck.

Kuromaki

12-04-2009, 05:19 PM

How does she get hit by them?
They fire in a line straight in front of Jugo.
Konan is a swarm of paper all around him.
A swarm capable of moving very quickly.
It was a large blast in front of Jugo, it should be able to decimate most of her paper mainly if she's in front of him.

Kisame

12-04-2009, 05:20 PM

Konoha'sGreenThunder

12-04-2009, 05:26 PM

Does anyone else think Tobirama should be under Legendary? He can perform the jutsu that requires the most handsigns (44) with only one, and he didn't need a body of water to do so.

He's known as the greatest user of the water style that ever existed. That sounds Legendary to me. Also, Naruto has stated at some point (maybe in an omake?) that Tobirama has the best combat ability. Even though it's Naruto and he exaggerates sometimes..

True, we haven't seen much of his combat to go on, but I think we have enough evidence to wager how strong he is.

Or, maybe I'm stupid, eh?

Yuuta

12-04-2009, 05:31 PM

It was a large blast in front of Jugo, it should be able to decimate most of her paper mainly if she's in front of him.
It takes longer for the cannons to charge than it does for Konan's swarm to overwhelm someone. He paper will most likely be all around him when he fires the cannons, repelling those around him and destroying the ones directly in front of him, but nothing's stopping him from being blanketed again. The tendrils retreat quickly as well. Also, again, we have Konan's paper regen speed.
And when you really look at it...It wasn't that large of a blast. I has range, but it was very conentrated.

Kuromaki

12-04-2009, 05:40 PM

About the Konohmru beating Pain, if you get the manga irl, you can see the picture much better and it's easier to see when Naraka Pain was summoned back he was still standing up fine, Konohamaru ruined his cloak and pushed him back, that was basically it.

Edit: Oh yeah about Kisame, he should be able to beat Sasuke and Sasori, Itachi is a too out, but icy-j agreed last time Kisame could win at least 4/10 times, once he gets Sasuke in the bubble, Amterasu won't be too effective and he can do what Raikage did, he's potentially immune to genjutsu, I'd say yes since Samehada is an intelligent enough creature, Susano'o isn't very offensive in Sasuke's case and a short while takes a load from him, plus lighting moves can electrocute him since he's in the water as well.

For the arguments for Sasori and Itachi you can see the Akatsuki tier list.
I think Kisame>Sasori at this point but Ammy was burning just fine through the rain, so it's not hampered as much by water. Kisame also has a low genjutsu stat in the databooks so if he gets in Tsukuyomi there's nothing he can really do about it, though it's quite possible that Samehada can dispel the weaker genjutsu.
Does anyone else think Tobirama should be under Legendary? He can perform the jutsu that requires the most handsigns (44) with only one, and he didn't need a body of water to do so.

He's known as the greatest user of the water style that ever existed. That sounds Legendary to me. Also, Naruto has stated at some point (maybe in an omake?) that Tobirama has the best combat ability. Even though it's Naruto and he exaggerates sometimes..

True, we haven't seen much of his combat to go on, but I think we have enough evidence to wager how strong he is.

Or, maybe I'm stupid, eh?
Youre not stupid, Tobirama does have good Taijutsu and water jutsu but in short he lacks feats that can put him higher, he only has one canon jutsu.

He could possibly beat Gaara though since his water can wet his sand but Gaara at this point has shown fast sand.
It takes longer for the cannons to charge than it does for Konan's swarm to overwhelm someone. He paper will most likely be all around him when he fires the cannons, repelling those around him and destroying the ones directly in front of him, but nothing's stopping him from being blanketed again. The tendrils retreat quickly as well. Also, again, we have Konan's paper regen speed.
And when you really look at it...It wasn't that large of a blast. I has range, but it was very conentrated.
I saw, it made a sort of small explosion around him as well (T think) so it shouldn't be a problem taking care of paper attacking him from behind, and his jet booster jutsu could take care of that too if the other method doesn't work.

Yuuta

12-04-2009, 05:46 PM

I saw, it made a sort of small explosion around him as well (T think) so it shouldn't be a problem taking care of paper attacking him from behind, and his jet booster jutsu could take care of that too if the other method doesn't work.

I know that, that's why I've been saying it would repel the paper he's already been blanketed with all this time...
But the circular radius, nor the cannon, takes care of Konan's volume, she's all around him.
Err...What? His Jet boosters are used for jumping...And punching...Both of which do nothing to Konan...

Yuuta

12-04-2009, 05:47 PM

Oh, and let me just complement you on taking on so many debates at once, haha. :D

Kisame

12-04-2009, 05:51 PM

I think Kisame>Sasori at this point but Ammy was burning just fine through the rain, so it's not hampered as much by water. Kisame also has a low genjutsu stat in the databooks so if he gets in Tsukuyomi there's nothing he can really do about it, though it's quite possible that Samehada can dispel the weaker genjutsu.

.

If Samehada can dispell lower genjutsu, it can dispel any genjutsu except Tsukuyomi, and Tsukuyomi cn be avoided by Kisame only looking at the lower part of Itachi's body and sensing his chakra for when he moves. Kisame has been his partner for a long time, he won't be stupid enough to look in his eyes.

For Amaterasu, Kisame spams water clones, Itachi won't know which to use it on, Sasuke showed Sharingan can distinguish the difference, plus he could just make a clone to cover himself. Amaterasu is also only supposed to have a range of 5 meters and if Itachi uses Amaterasu Kisame can sense the buildup of chakra in his eyes nd get our of his sight and range, as seen with Hachibi, Amaterasu isn't instant, it travels, since Hachibi had time to move a tentacle in front of himself.

Kuromaki

12-04-2009, 05:56 PM

Kisame

12-04-2009, 06:01 PM

How good is his chakra sensing exactly?

& you just said Sasuke showed Sharingan can distinguish the difference so Itachi should know which one to use it on.

Sorry typo, I meant can't, he could tell the difference between the tentacle clone and real one, being able to is anime filler, even Madara couldn't.

He was able to fight KB perfectly with no sight at all.

Kuromaki

12-04-2009, 06:03 PM

Sorry typo, I meant can't, he could tell the difference between the tentacle clone and real one, being able to is anime filler, even Madara couldn't.

He was able to fight KB perfectly with no sight at all.
No sight, when? He had his eyes open in the ink while KB's chakra drained iirc.

Yuuta

12-04-2009, 06:06 PM

There are some that come from his back.

Oi thank you.

Yeah, and some from his side, and his other side, and above him, and all around...He can't handle it.

No problem! :D

Kisame

12-04-2009, 06:06 PM

No sight, when? He had his eyes open in the ink while KB's chakra drained iirc.

I didn't say eyes closes, I meant no sight. In the ink he couldn't see at all, that was the whole point of it, but his chakra sensing countered it.

Konan

12-04-2009, 06:24 PM

icy-j

12-05-2009, 12:47 AM

If Samehada can dispell lower genjutsu, it can dispel any genjutsu except Tsukuyomi, and Tsukuyomi cn be avoided by Kisame only looking at the lower part of Itachi's body and sensing his chakra for when he moves. Kisame has been his partner for a long time, he won't be stupid enough to look in his eyes.

For Amaterasu, Kisame spams water clones, Itachi won't know which to use it on, Sasuke showed Sharingan can distinguish the difference, plus he could just make a clone to cover himself. Amaterasu is also only supposed to have a range of 5 meters and if Itachi uses Amaterasu Kisame can sense the buildup of chakra in his eyes nd get our of his sight and range, as seen with Hachibi, Amaterasu isn't instant, it travels, since Hachibi had time to move a tentacle in front of himself.

First, I said Itachi would win 70% of the time, but since I have been debating this fight for a while now, and I even realize more of the fight. Now, I see Itachi winning at least 80% and Sasuke at least 70%.

Now about Samehada, first it is possible for Samehada to break him out of weaker gen not certain. Also if it can, it wouldn't make him immune to weaker gen or be an instant dispell. It would leave him open for Itachi to catch him in Amaterusu, Tsuyokumi, or get out of bubble. Not even going to touch on trying to say he would fight like Gai. :roll: I mean really how could of Kisame been training to fight against a Sharingan user, when him and Itachi have been together. Yes, he would try to avoid eye contact, but everyone that fights a Sharingan does. It is basic knowledge for any ninja.

Kisame has never shown to be able to create water clones while merged, much less make a mass of water clones. Amaterasu is pretty much instant, at most it would take 2 seconds based on it being stated in the manga it is unavoidable (I believe the time it takes comes from using it and not the actual Amaterasu), and being able to catch Sasuke, yes Raikage and KB were able to react in time, but they are some of the fastest charaters in Naruto atm. KB still wasn't able to dodge it.

I love how being able to sense KB's chakra right in front of him, now makes him able to sense an Amaterasu coming. You also said later that he was able to fight KB with no sight in the fight. Lol it was for like 2 screens and it was just a simple Samehada sensing his chakra, because it wanted to absorb it. Please quit overrating his sensing when it was just a simple feat, and it was Samehada that sensed it.

Now about Sasuke, how does water effect Amaterasu, I don't get how this is a counter for it, when not only does the manga say it can't be put it unless the user does, but it was feats to be able to burn through water and in water? How does Kisame get past his Amaterasu shield, when Raikage with his Raition armor couldn't without losing an arm. Yes, his Susano'o isn't as powerful as Itachi's of course, but it is still very effective, but in Sasuke's case I believe he wouldn't have to use it. Yes, his lightning jutsu would hurt him, but no where near as much as Kisame. Based on 2 feats, one Sasuke can manipulate Lightning making him already use to it. Second Sasuke used chidori twice I believe on himself proving he can electrocute himself and still fight. I mean think about it Sasuke has Tsuyokumi, Amatersu with better control, his own Susano'o, and lightning jutsu vs Kisame's water jutsu. Not only that, but Kisame has proven to be able to be speedblitzed, and Sasuke always starts off by speedblitzing. Kisame wouldn't have his bubble up or be merged yet.

I'll finish with a few counters for Kuromaki. Oro got caught off guard how? He was staring right at Itachi, and even could of seen that Itachi's Susano'o had spirit weapons, since he spent a lot of time trying to search for them.

You hit exactly what I am talking about in the Kisame vs KB fight. KB had everything against him. KB is mostly melee from what we have seen so far, he didn't go into his full transformation, he spent about 8/10 of the fight running trying to save his friends and getting his chakra absorbed, and he only attacked three times I believe during the whole fight. I am just saying it was a very bad scenario, and KB didn't get to focus on the fight.

trouble88

12-05-2009, 08:51 AM

sweet awesome job man rep up

Yuuta

12-05-2009, 12:02 PM

There are some that come from his back.

Or are you talking about the boosters?
Those were the tendrils for firing the cannons, and they would have to manevuer to fire, they don't seem to have a function just by themselves.
He's easily overwhelmed.

Kuromaki

12-05-2009, 12:09 PM

How is Might Guy Kage +??? I can understand him being that when in gates mode but not normally, also Chiyo, she is Jonin imo, she is not Kage level, yes she is a Puppet Master but she can't really do all that much without prior knowledge, she was thinking of facing Itachi straight on as long as you have a friend with you, and the only reason she lived after getting poisoned is plot, nothing more, she would have died without Sakura there (and vice versa) I say she is high jonin but not kage.
Guy is pretty fast and he's superior to Lee, so he's in Kage level.

Sasori is quite superior to Chiyo so she can't be argued there, but she has tons of knowledge and experience, she's also good at Taijutsu and her puppets can use effective teamwork.
Or are you talking about the boosters?
Those were the tendrils for firing the cannons, and they would have to manevuer to fire, they don't seem to have a function just by themselves.
He's easily overwhelmed.
Not really, if Konan tries to suffocate him he can use his Axe to cut the nearby paper and use his Cannons too, Jugo tanked a punch from the Raikage so I don't think her sharpened paper will really do much to him, Konan's best chance is suffocation.

Edit: Added Yahiko

Yuuta

12-05-2009, 12:20 PM

Not really, if Konan tries to suffocate him he can use his Axe to cut the nearby paper and use his Cannons too, Jugo tanked a punch from the Raikage so I don't think her sharpened paper will really do much to him, Konan's best chance is suffocation.

Yeah, that's what I meant. She doesn't need to waste time on physically trying to kill him. Strength won't do much to Konan, and his blasts are easily avoid by the swarm, though he does take out a few pieces of paper.
Once the blasts have fired, and not very effectively, at the swarm all around him, his opening would be exploited, and he would be blanketed very quickly.

Yuuta

12-05-2009, 12:29 PM

And about Yahiko, we should probably list him as his highest tier - when he was the leader of the Ame's gang. We don't really know about his skills from that time, but Nagato had improved drastically, so Yahiko probably did too, so he probably had a few more water stlye moves (We have reason to believe Yahiko could do something like the rain jutsu) and he had a sword too!
So...maybe...by hype...Since Hanzo thought they were a threat, how about under regular Jugo? I dunno.

Kuromaki

12-05-2009, 12:35 PM

Yeah, that's what I meant. She doesn't need to waste time on physically trying to kill him. Strength won't do much to Konan, and his blasts are easily avoid by the swarm, though he does take out a few pieces of paper.
Once the blasts have fired, and not very effectively, at the swarm all around him, his opening would be exploited, and he would be blanketed very quickly.
The blasts take like one small panel to load. So if Konan tries to get him then he can just use the cannons. Meanwhile he could be fending off some pieces of paper with his CS2 blades.
And about Yahiko, we should probably list him as his highest tier - when he was the leader of the Ame's gang. We don't really know about his skills from that time, but Nagato had improved drastically, so Yahiko probably did too, so he probably had a few more water stlye moves (We have reason to believe Yahiko could do something like the rain jutsu) and he had a sword too!
So...maybe...by hype...Since Hanzo thought they were a threat, how about under regular Jugo? I dunno.
The thing is, Yahiko's only feats are a sword and a C-rank water jutsu. The Rain Tiger At Will technique was only shown on Deva path years later.

Speaking of Hanzo, where do you think I should add him? His power is based mostly on hype, but he apparently moves very fast in the water, he has a large salamander summon with which he was able to fight off the three Sannin and he can use an explosive tag jutsu.

Yuuta

12-05-2009, 01:08 PM

The blasts take like one small panel to load. So if Konan tries to get him then he can just use the cannons. Meanwhile he could be fending off some pieces of paper with his CS2 blades.

The thing is, Yahiko's only feats are a sword and a C-rank water jutsu. The Rain Tiger At Will technique was only shown on Deva path years later.

Speaking of Hanzo, where do you think I should add him? His power is based mostly on hype, but he apparently moves very fast in the water, he has a large salamander summon with which he was able to fight off the three Sannin and he can use an explosive tag jutsu.

First the tendrils had to grow into place and aim, it took longer than that, much longer than the swarm took to overwhelm Jiraya. Afterwards they retreated as well, and he was open. Konan would definetly get him.
And CS blades is very nearly useless against Konan's swarming paper, that most likely be blanketed as well, especially after she got his eyes.

Right...Well, he seemed about Jonin level anyway.

Right, and he was also able to avoid gedo mazo somehow. Jiraya also thought he was really strong even when he recently invaded.
How about under Onoki?

Kuromaki

12-05-2009, 01:15 PM

First the tendrils had to grow into place and aim, it took longer than that, much longer than the swarm took to overwhelm Jiraya. Afterwards they retreated as well, and he was open. Konan would definetly get him.
And CS blades is very nearly useless against Konan's swarming paper, that most likely be blanketed as well, especially after she got his eyes.

Right...Well, he seemed about Jonin level anyway.

Right, and he was also able to avoid gedo mazo somehow. Jiraya also thought he was really strong even when he recently invaded.
How about under Onoki?
They also took like a panel to appear. So they really only took about 2-3 panels, they're not that slow. I think the CS2 axe can help him cut away the paper, but for the most part it's ineffective and it would only help him last longer.

Okay, that's where I'll place him.

Yuuta

12-05-2009, 01:24 PM

They also took like a panel to appear. So they really only took about 2-3 panels, they're not that slow. I think the CS2 axe can help him cut away the paper, but for the most part it's ineffective and it would only help him last longer.

Okay, that's where I'll place him.

Yeah, and Konan took one for Konan to gather all of her paper that was filling an entire expanse and swarm at Jiraya.
When we're talking straight speed, Konan is faster. But the cannons really won't get rid of that much paper, (When you look at the panel, she's literally all around him) and after he fires he's too open to blanketing once again.

Really? :D Yay, I'm battle savy!

Kuromaki

12-05-2009, 01:29 PM

Yeah, and Konan took one for Konan to gather all of her paper that was filling an entire expanse and swarm at Jiraya.
When we're talking straight speed, Konan is faster. But the cannons really won't get rid of that much paper, (When you look at the panel, she's literally all around him) and after he fires he's too open to blanketing once again.

Really? :D Yay, I'm battle savy!
Well... it kinda took 2 panels as well, then Konan appeared in front of the dude she was trying to suffocate and stab.

I also added Yugito Nii, and the 2 tailed beast to the tier list.

Yuuta

12-05-2009, 01:50 PM

Well... it kinda took 2 panels as well, then Konan appeared in front of the dude she was trying to suffocate and stab.

I also added Yugito Nii, and the 2 tailed beast to the tier list.

Konan was free to do that once she had him blanketed, yeah.
But she won't even need to against Jugo, just keep blanketing and suffocation occurs.

Hmm...I think the cat is alittle too high, all we saw of it was that it could breathe fire and was strong, but it didn't seem to pose that much of a threat to even Hidan...I suppose hype puts it up there...I think it needs to be above Yugito, because some characters could probably beat it. What about below Suigetsu?

Kuromaki

12-05-2009, 01:59 PM

Konan was free to do that once she had him blanketed, yeah.
But she won't even need to against Jugo, just keep blanketing and suffocation occurs.

Hmm...I think the cat is alittle too high, all we saw of it was that it could breathe fire and was strong, but it didn't seem to pose that much of a threat to even Hidan...I suppose hype puts it up there...I think it needs to be above Yugito, because some characters could probably beat it. What about below Suigetsu?
The "boosters" can probably come out and blast her once she prepares to stab him, and stabbing will likely be tanked, not to mention he can dodge.

It's likely that Hidan had help from Kakuzu to beat it. It had powerful blasts of fire that can destroy a large area and its full power wasn't shown, which is why it's up there. In fact it should be above Shukaku due to the number of tails but Shukaku can beat it with the feats it's shown.

Edit: I'm adding Hiruzen (Prime) and moving him up because of the new things confirmed in the latest fanbook.

Yuuta

12-05-2009, 02:29 PM

The "boosters" can probably come out and blast her once she prepares to stab him, and stabbing will likely be tanked, not to mention he can dodge.

It's likely that Hidan had help from Kakuzu to beat it. It had powerful blasts of fire that can destroy a large area and its full power wasn't shown, which is why it's up there. In fact it should be above Shukaku due to the number of tails but Shukaku can beat it with the feats it's shown.

Edit: I'm adding Hiruzen (Prime) and moving him up because of the new things confirmed in the latest fanbook.

She won't need to stab him. And they'd have to fight through her paper to get out, which is no easy task. Additionally, it would be all to easy for her to split and dodge it, and blanket him again.
And Konan doesn't always stab in the story, either. She killed alot of ninja with suffocation only in the invasion, they were in a cuccoon of paper. Jugo can briefly repel it, but he'll only be blanketed again.

Well due to hype it should be higher, then. I'm not seeing how Tsunade and Chiyo beat it if it's so powerful.

Alright, he was supposedly really strong, so I guess that works.

Superwes Reborn

12-05-2009, 02:43 PM

You should put Madara (prime), in front of Madara (current).

Superwes Reborn

12-05-2009, 02:44 PM

Why is madara in the past behind madara current? He said he was a shadow of his former self

You also forgot lots of current people.

Killerbee, Raikage, the rest of the kages, Their jonin, etc

Kuromaki

12-05-2009, 02:45 PM

She won't need to stab him. And they'd have to fight through her paper to get out, which is no easy task. Additionally, it would be all to easy for her to split and dodge it, and blanket him again.
And Konan doesn't always stab in the story, either. She killed alot of ninja with suffocation only in the invasion, they were in a cuccoon of paper. Jugo can briefly repel it, but he'll only be blanketed again.

Well due to hype it should be higher, then. I'm not seeing how Tsunade and Chiyo beat it if it's so powerful.

Alright, he was supposedly really strong, so I guess that works.
What if she decides to stab him? And if she appears then he can blast her away with the cannon, surely it won't take much work for CS2 boosters to push themselves out of paper, if Konan even blankets those.

That's only by hype, Tsunade has a summon backing her up and Chiyo has her 10 puppets, the 2 tails really lacks feats.
Why is madara in the past behind madara current? He said he was a shadow of his former self
Current Madara has shown better feats with his teleporting. Past Madara can't be moved up because Hashirama can beat him, and I don't know if Past Madara can teleport like his current version can.

Superwes Reborn

12-05-2009, 02:47 PM

But he even said that he wasn't as strong

Kuromaki

12-05-2009, 02:52 PM

But he even said that he wasn't as strong
Feats say otherwise.

Edit: Scratch that, Past Madara should be better, but maybe he was just talking about Kyubi control? Either way I'm moving current Madara down.

Yuuta

12-05-2009, 03:11 PM

What if she decides to stab him? And if she appears then he can blast her away with the cannon, surely it won't take much work for CS2 boosters to push themselves out of paper, if Konan even blankets those.

First off...Really? She'll she that he has a curse mark, she's not stupid. And if she does, it's not big deal. It doesn't work, the blasters come out, she scatters.
She'll see the blasters is what I'm saying. There was enough time for everyone to gawk at them. E had his hand stuck in him, and even then he was fast enough to move (not that I'm saying Konan's that fast) but Jugo really needs his opponents to stay stationary. She has more than enough time to split.
After that, she'll know stabbing won't work, and will repeatedly blanket him until he's in a cuccoon and suffocates. She'll have the perfect opening after Jugo fires.

Yuuta

12-05-2009, 03:13 PM

That's only by hype, Tsunade has a summon backing her up and Chiyo has her 10 puppets, the 2 tails really lacks feats.

Yes, but then why is it so high? Mei gives it a run for its money with her lava and mist. If we're going off feats, it needs to be around Yugito Nii.
If by hype, I think it needs to be higher.

zebrakiller

12-05-2009, 03:52 PM

so why is curse mark sasuke so damn high?

AkatsukiMember

12-05-2009, 03:53 PM

It's a good tier list.

Kuromaki

12-05-2009, 04:09 PM

First off...Really? She'll she that he has a curse mark, she's not stupid. And if she does, it's not big deal. It doesn't work, the blasters come out, she scatters.
She'll see the blasters is what I'm saying. There was enough time for everyone to gawk at them. E had his hand stuck in him, and even then he was fast enough to move (not that I'm saying Konan's that fast) but Jugo really needs his opponents to stay stationary. She has more than enough time to split.
After that, she'll know stabbing won't work, and will repeatedly blanket him until he's in a cuccoon and suffocates. She'll have the perfect opening after Jugo fires.
She'll see the cannons but if she's in a large clump around Jugo they can hit her more easily. If Konan's suffocating him, then the cannons will easily take care of all the paper, there's like 14 of them.

Darui and Shi got to gawk at it to show their shock at E being in point blank range, that doesn't mean the cannons are slow, they took a panel to charge and aim at E, they can aim at the various clumps of paper.

So after Jugo fires and she's still there, Konan would attack him, Jugo cuts the paper then fires the cannons again, they haven't shown a limit to one blast.
Yes, but then why is it so high? Mei gives it a run for its money with her lava and mist. If we're going off feats, it needs to be around Yugito Nii.
If by hype, I think it needs to be higher.
Mei hasn't shown many speed feats and how does she avoid the giant fire blasts it makes?
so why is curse mark sasuke so damn high?
Because he's that powerful.

Yuuta

12-05-2009, 08:08 PM

She'll see the cannons but if she's in a large clump around Jugo they can hit her more easily. If Konan's suffocating him, then the cannons will easily take care of all the paper, there's like 14 of them.

Darui and Shi got to gawk at it to show their shock at E being in point blank range, that doesn't mean the cannons are slow, they took a panel to charge and aim at E, they can aim at the various clumps of paper.

So after Jugo fires and she's still there, Konan would attack him, Jugo cuts the paper then fires the cannons again, they haven't shown a limit to one blast.

Mei hasn't shown many speed feats and how does she avoid the giant fire blasts it makes?

What? They have a circular radius, but Konan's volume is greater than that, she took up a whole cove and covered an entire city. We have a start forward blast and a small radius. That gets rid only the paper on him and about 16% of her paper in front of him. He's easily covered again after the tendrils retreat. And we've got Konan's regen speed...

And what are they going to aim at, one of the hundreds of swarming pieces of paper? Not realy effective.

The tendrils retreated after he fired, they'd probably have to grow and charge again, but they'd have to force their way through Konan's paper again, which would once again alert her. And she still blankets him, his attempting to cut the paper would have to him swing his arm through it, covering it with paper, then we have the paper's literal weight, she gets his eyes, and the cutting's pretty useless. And we have Konan's regen speed...

Well if we're assuming she's can't dodge, but even Hidan dodged. :|

reemus55

12-06-2009, 12:04 PM

Why is the two tailed cat lower than one tailed shukaku?

Kuromaki

12-06-2009, 01:51 PM

What? They have a circular radius, but Konan's volume is greater than that, she took up a whole cove and covered an entire city. We have a start forward blast and a small radius. That gets rid only the paper on him and about 16% of her paper in front of him. He's easily covered again after the tendrils retreat. And we've got Konan's regen speed...

And what are they going to aim at, one of the hundreds of swarming pieces of paper? Not realy effective.

The tendrils retreated after he fired, they'd probably have to grow and charge again, but they'd have to force their way through Konan's paper again, which would once again alert her. And she still blankets him, his attempting to cut the paper would have to him swing his arm through it, covering it with paper, then we have the paper's literal weight, she gets his eyes, and the cutting's pretty useless. And we have Konan's regen speed...

Well if we're assuming she's can't dodge, but even Hidan dodged. :|
Where's this about the whole cove/entire city?

Konan doesn't even know about what his CS2 does let alone the cannons, even the Raikage and his bodyguards were surprised about the cannons, and she also won't know what the holes do until the beams charge, which only takes a panel. Konan tends to appear when she's attacking, and she also attacks in large groups of paper, and considering the speed on the cannons and what she doesn't know about it she would have to react quickly.

While the axe and piston punches won't really do much, it can ward off the paper, if some paper gets on his arm it's no big deal unless the whole swarm covers him, then he can pull out the cannons and surprise attack Konan with them.

Hmm you're right, I'll move Mei up.
Why is the two tailed cat lower than one tailed shukaku?
Because it lacks feats, although from hype it should be higher.

Yuuta

12-06-2009, 03:53 PM

Where's this about the whole cove/entire city?

Konan doesn't even know about what his CS2 does let alone the cannons, even the Raikage and his bodyguards were surprised about the cannons, and she also won't know what the holes do until the beams charge, which only takes a panel. Konan tends to appear when she's attacking, and she also attacks in large groups of paper, and considering the speed on the cannons and what she doesn't know about it she would have to react quickly.

While the axe and piston punches won't really do much, it can ward off the paper, if some paper gets on his arm it's no big deal unless the whole swarm covers him, then he can pull out the cannons and surprise attack Konan with them.

Hmm you're right, I'll move Mei up.

Because it lacks feats, although from hype it should be higher.

Remeber when she was waiting for Jiraya in that huge metal tower? And when she was searching for Jiraya by splitting up and covering the whole city? That's what I'm referencing.

She only appeared in the invasion because she wanted to gather information.
And Darui and Shi quickly inferenced that the cannons very going to fire, very obviously. So would Konan, and yes, she could react quickly. Her swarm of paper is capable of moving quickly, as she showed in the fight against Jiraya.

...Not really. If your saying wind currents from the punches will do help reflect them, I highly doubt it. Konan was very skilled in navigating her paper through the air, she would undoubtedly cover him.
And yes, it would have an effect. If her paper is strong enough to render people immobile, she will definetly be able to do it to Jugo, though it'll probably take a little more paper.
And it won't be a surprise attack, the tendrils will have to force their way through Konan's paper. She'd see them and split.

She's skilled in suffocation, she knew exactly which piece of paper is needed to suffocate, as she showed in the invasion.
Seriously, she has paper regeneration when she's hurt in paper mode, and made thousands upon thousands of paper for her tree... There's absolutely no way Jugo survives being covered with the amount of paper she can produce.

Alright...It's position is still bugging me alittle, though... Are we going off it's feats or hype? By hype it needs to be higher, but feats it needs to be lower. I honestly think we need to use alittle more hype, since it's supposed to be a very powerful opponent, but in terms of literal feats, it's really just got strength, a fire jutsu, and stamina, I'm guessing. That literally lands it about below Rock Lee. By hype, it should be below Deidara.
Salamander Hanzo? Why not just...Hanzo...

Yuuta

12-06-2009, 04:28 PM

Scrath that about the cat, it seems strong. The fire ball it made destroyed an entire building.
Physical strength it's alittle lacking, though. Kakuzu managed to catch it so he wasn't crushed. Still pretty strong by normal standards, though.
I think it needs to be higher, how about near Hanzo, or below Tobirama Senju?

Avenger

12-07-2009, 03:58 PM

Kuromaki

12-07-2009, 04:19 PM

Remeber when she was waiting for Jiraya in that huge metal tower? And when she was searching for Jiraya by splitting up and covering the whole city? That's what I'm referencing.

She only appeared in the invasion because she wanted to gather information.
And Darui and Shi quickly inferenced that the cannons very going to fire, very obviously. So would Konan, and yes, she could react quickly. Her swarm of paper is capable of moving quickly, as she showed in the fight against Jiraya.

...Not really. If your saying wind currents from the punches will do help reflect them, I highly doubt it. Konan was very skilled in navigating her paper through the air, she would undoubtedly cover him.
And yes, it would have an effect. If her paper is strong enough to render people immobile, she will definetly be able to do it to Jugo, though it'll probably take a little more paper.
And it won't be a surprise attack, the tendrils will have to force their way through Konan's paper. She'd see them and split.

She's skilled in suffocation, she knew exactly which piece of paper is needed to suffocate, as she showed in the invasion.
Seriously, she has paper regeneration when she's hurt in paper mode, and made thousands upon thousands of paper for her tree... There's absolutely no way Jugo survives being covered with the amount of paper she can produce.

Alright...It's position is still bugging me alittle, though... Are we going off it's feats or hype? By hype it needs to be higher, but feats it needs to be lower. I honestly think we need to use alittle more hype, since it's supposed to be a very powerful opponent, but in terms of literal feats, it's really just got strength, a fire jutsu, and stamina, I'm guessing. That literally lands it about below Rock Lee. By hype, it should be below Deidara.
Salamander Hanzo? Why not just...Hanzo...
Speaking of splitting up, it took like three pages for her to do that, then take the form she wants to use, so if she goes in full paper mode she'll have to do that right? Jugo can attack her by then.

Konan's paper hasn't shown any really good speed feats and if she were to go and suffocate him, or stab him, the cannons can appear and blast her, decimating a large amount of paper, since it's a huge swarm. Jugo was stated to have huge amounts of chakra by one of the trackers, Shii I think, so chakra isn't a problem here if you're going to bring up the whole Konan has a lot of chakra debate.

As if the tendrils are going to take a long time, Jugo can dodge, he should be faster in CS2 and the boosters on his back prevent him from being too covered there since they can release fire, while he can cut away at the paper using his axe, which is pretty big, and enough to counter something like Suigetsu's sword. Some paper will probably cover his arm but he can cut through the other sheets by swinging it.

Well we should use a little more hype. And Salamander Hanzo is just another title, plus it sounds cooler >_>
Scrath that about the cat, it seems strong. The fire ball it made destroyed an entire building.
Physical strength it's alittle lacking, though. Kakuzu managed to catch it so he wasn't crushed. Still pretty strong by normal standards, though.
I think it needs to be higher, how about near Hanzo, or below Tobirama Senju?
It might need to be somewhat higher, but for now I'll move it back above Mei.
Wow, nice list. Seems like I missed somethings while I was gone for a while..

Not really much disagreements or anything, but I'd like to ask about Hiruzen and Gai. Assuming Gai starts with 6th Gate, I'm not too sure Hiruzen can keep up too long. Even summoning Enma might not be a good choice since that takes a bit of time and Gai probably wont stop attacking.
Thanks, and I haven't seen you in a while Avenger, welcome back.

Alright I'll move 6 Gate Guy up, since I'm sure he's much faster than old Hiruzen.

narutoultra

12-07-2009, 04:55 PM

Wow, nice list. Seems like I missed somethings while I was gone for a while..

Not really much disagreements or anything, but I'd like to ask about Hiruzen and Gai. Assuming Gai starts with 6th Gate, I'm not too sure Hiruzen can keep up too long. Even summoning Enma might not be a good choice since that takes a bit of time and Gai probably wont stop attacking.

I' pretty sure you missed the battleground wiki, battleground rules, OBD migrants, new mod selection, and more.

Your just in time to vote for[or against] Banning Goku VS Superman

About that Gai thing, that sounds right to me as well, Gai should be able to break through whatever Hiruzen pulls out.

Yuuta

12-07-2009, 07:35 PM

Speaking of splitting up, it took like three pages for her to do that, then take the form she wants to use, so if she goes in full paper mode she'll have to do that right? Jugo can attack her by then.

Konan's paper hasn't shown any really good speed feats and if she were to go and suffocate him, or stab him, the cannons can appear and blast her, decimating a large amount of paper, since it's a huge swarm. Jugo was stated to have huge amounts of chakra by one of the trackers, Shii I think, so chakra isn't a problem here if you're going to bring up the whole Konan has a lot of chakra debate.

As if the tendrils are going to take a long time, Jugo can dodge, he should be faster in CS2 and the boosters on his back prevent him from being too covered there since they can release fire, while he can cut away at the paper using his axe, which is pretty big, and enough to counter something like Suigetsu's sword. Some paper will probably cover his arm but he can cut through the other sheets by swinging it.

Well we should use a little more hype. And Salamander Hanzo is just another title, plus it sounds cooler >_>

It might need to be somewhat higher, but for now I'll move it back above Mei.

She condensed and split quite quickly when she was relaying messages to pain and fighting Jiraya.

And yes, it caught Jiraya before he could react. CMS2 Jugo is the one without speed feats. >_> She would get him before the tendrils came out.
I'm assuming Jugo has a lot of chakra, actually. But I'm saying you can't count Konan out of because of that.

The boosters have shown no use for speed, and those fires looked chakra oriented, and can be smothered out, like every fire, because they need oxygen. Covered in paper...gets no oxygen. She might lose a few pieces, but she has way too much for him to counter. And bigger does not equal better - that's just more surface area for Konan to cover and weigh him down...It'd just doom him even faster.

I think more hype would be best.

Kuromaki

12-07-2009, 08:11 PM

She condensed and split quite quickly when she was relaying messages to pain and fighting Jiraya.

And yes, it caught Jiraya before he could react. CMS2 Jugo is the one without speed feats. >_> She would get him before the tendrils came out.
I'm assuming Jugo has a lot of chakra, actually. But I'm saying you can't count Konan out of because of that.

The boosters have shown no use for speed, and those fires looked chakra oriented, and can be smothered out, like every fire, because they need oxygen. Covered in paper...gets no oxygen. She might lose a few pieces, but she has way too much for him to counter. And bigger does not equal better - that's just more surface area for Konan to cover and weigh him down...It'd just doom him even faster.

I think more hype would be best.

But she was in still in full paper form.

For one thing the person Jiraiya was posing as isn't that fast, and Jiraiya himself still managed to appear as a shadow and used a weak fire jutsu which burned some paper slips quite easily. Konan knew how to counter that since she already saw it.

Jiraiya dodged the slips by just rolling, Jugo is at least Subsonic speed and he should be faster in CS2, plus he could just block the shuriken or spears with his shield. The tendrils took like what, a panel to appear, plus Konan would be shocked by the cannons just like everyone else.

Okay so the fire won't be a complete defense, but it can ward off some paper while Jugo slices the other sheets. Then he can pull the cannons out.

I agree.

Yuuta

12-07-2009, 08:36 PM

But she was in still in full paper form.

For one thing the person Jiraiya was posing as isn't that fast, and Jiraiya himself still managed to appear as a shadow and used a weak fire jutsu which burned some paper slips quite easily. Konan knew how to counter that since she already saw it.

Jiraiya dodged the slips by just rolling, Jugo is at least Subsonic speed and he should be faster in CS2, plus he could just block the shuriken or spears with his shield. The tendrils took like what, a panel to appear, plus Konan would be shocked by the cannons just like everyone else.

Okay so the fire won't be a complete defense, but it can ward off some paper while Jugo slices the other sheets. Then he can pull the cannons out.

I agree.

Yes, she was. And...?

Jiraya was still controlling him. All of his movements were controlled. If Jiraya could have avoided them, Ryusui would have as well.

Are you taking those speed terms from the battleground wiki? Didn't you say things here are not decided just because Kisame and Rocklee say so? From what we saw, Jugo is not faster S2. He may have gained strength and chakra attacks, but speed wise he seemed quite impaired. In fact, I think regular Jugo is faster, base speed wise.
And the swarm condensed in about one panel to swarm, and caught Jiraya, and she condesnsed/split in about 2 panels and 1 panel respectively. She can react in time, anyway you slice it.

And really, the taijutsu doesn't really do much to her...Even the blade weighs him down faster with the paper adhering to it, and the tiny flames are smothered.

If you're going to try to play a shock card, than Jugo would be shocked by the paper swarm just like Jiraya and wouldn't have time to react.
And E wasn't very shocked at all, frankly. You can't just say Konan would be immobilized in fear, she's never shown an inclination of that kind of emotion, even when facing those she knows is more powerful than her.
Jugo is not.

Yuuta

12-07-2009, 08:39 PM

So...With more hype, shouldn't the cat be alittle higher?
Perhaps under Gaara with Shukaku?
I can't see Kakashi beating it alone.

Kuromaki

12-08-2009, 05:55 AM

Yes, she was. And...?

Jiraya was still controlling him. All of his movements were controlled. If Jiraya could have avoided them, Ryusui would have as well.

Are you taking those speed terms from the battleground wiki? Didn't you say things here are not decided just because Kisame and Rocklee say so? From what we saw, Jugo is not faster S2. He may have gained strength and chakra attacks, but speed wise he seemed quite impaired. In fact, I think regular Jugo is faster, base speed wise.
And the swarm condensed in about one panel to swarm, and caught Jiraya, and she condesnsed/split in about 2 panels and 1 panel respectively. She can react in time, anyway you slice it.

And really, the taijutsu doesn't really do much to her...Even the blade weighs him down faster with the paper adhering to it, and the tiny flames are smothered.

If you're going to try to play a shock card, than Jugo would be shocked by the paper swarm just like Jiraya and wouldn't have time to react.
And E wasn't very shocked at all, frankly. You can't just say Konan would be immobilized in fear, she's never shown an inclination of that kind of emotion, even when facing those she knows is more powerful than her.
Jugo is not.

That's where the prep comes on, she needs some time to turn into full paper mode, although she can use paper outside her body, she won't be paper herself.

That doesn't mean he'll have equal speed, and like I said before, Konan already knew the jutsu, and told it to Pain.

Well no. Regular Jugo was able to keep up with Suigetsu, protected Sasuke and Karin and some other things, he's not that slow, and if anything he'll gain a speed boost, since CS2 transformations give the user a boost.

And since Konan will have to use a large amount of paper to attack him, since Jugo should be able to overpower or dodge a small amount of paper, that gives Jugo more paper to destroy, with his cannon.

It might weigh him down a little, but he was able to swing it pretty fast, and deflect Suigetsu's sword with ease, he can just swing it and cut through several sheets, a few sheets getting on his arm won't do harm unless it's a whole big load of them, where Jugo won't hesitate to shoot the cannon if Konan corners him.

Jugo can still use his cannon though, a cannon that appeared and shot in about two panels. E was angry, fearless, and confident of himself, Konan attacked Jiraiya because she knew him, and she wanted to stall him for Pain.
So...With more hype, shouldn't the cat be alittle higher?
Perhaps under Gaara with Shukaku?
I can't see Kakashi beating it alone.
Alright I'll move it there.

Yuuta

12-08-2009, 10:35 AM

That's where the prep comes on, she needs some time to turn into full paper mode, although she can use paper outside her body, she won't be paper herself.

That doesn't mean he'll have equal speed, and like I said before, Konan already knew the jutsu, and told it to Pain.

Well no. Regular Jugo was able to keep up with Suigetsu, protected Sasuke and Karin and some other things, he's not that slow, and if anything he'll gain a speed boost, since CS2 transformations give the user a boost.

And since Konan will have to use a large amount of paper to attack him, since Jugo should be able to overpower or dodge a small amount of paper, that gives Jugo more paper to destroy, with his cannon.

It might weigh him down a little, but he was able to swing it pretty fast, and deflect Suigetsu's sword with ease, he can just swing it and cut through several sheets, a few sheets getting on his arm won't do harm unless it's a whole big load of them, where Jugo won't hesitate to shoot the cannon if Konan corners him.

Jugo can still use his cannon though, a cannon that appeared and shot in about two panels. E was angry, fearless, and confident of himself, Konan attacked Jiraiya because she knew him, and she wanted to stall him for Pain.

Alright I'll move it there.

Jugo takes time to enter his mode as well. And unless he can get to her before she makes the handsign, he can't stop it. Once she makes it, her body's paper - you see the creases all throughout her body. It doesn't even take that much time to split it apart. If she was hit, it would most likely not even be hurtful, as it would help split the paper faster.
And she could buy herself time with some paper distractions - she's shown to be able to produce paper without being in complete paper mode, and use alot of it too - when she blanketed Yahiko and Nagato's bodies.

Her knowing the jutsu has little to nothing to do with the fact that if she still caught him before he could react. That translates to speed.

I said that Regular Jugo seems faster than CS, from what we've seen. Though it would seem that he was supposed to gain a speed boost, it doesn't seem to be that much faster at all.

I don't understand what you're trying to say by that. I seems that you're trying to say more paper she uses means more paper to destroy, right? Her swarm will get him before he fires the cannnons. They condensed from floating around a huge tower to a swarm in less than a panel, then surround him completely. When he fires the cannons, they get rid of the paper quite literally on him and in a small circular radius in front of him. The fact is that the cannons will destroy a small percent of her total paper. And once again, she has ridiculous regen when it comes to paper count.

The paper is harder to cut than you're giving it credit for. In fact, with cannon Konan, the literal strength of her paper has not been tested. From what we've seen, it seems very durable, used for shurikens and for weapons. If her paper wasn't as hard as metal, why would she be so confident in using them in attacks? She was going to spear someone with paper, so it must be potent, so it's probably more durable than you're giving it credit for because it's chakra enfused and used as weapons. Then, when it's flying in the air, you'll have to get it from the right angle, postion, and swing hard - and that's only for one piece. Konan has hundreds upon hundreds pieces of paper that are all coming at Jugo at once. He probably would not be able to take out multiple sheets very well - when he swings the paper would adhere to him and immobilize him. And yes, she can immobilize him. She was able to stop the movements of multiple ninja, so her paper weight is considerable, though she may have to use more than usual forJugo, she can undoubtedly do it.
It isn't normal paper, obviously.

They would still have to force their way through Konan's paper, and that would alert her. Really, this whole shock debate is irrelevant, as you seem to be trying to imploy plot. Konan attacked Jiraya because she had been ordered to be Pain. That was it. Her feelings didn't really matter at that point. She was also very calm and controlled althroughout the invasion. The only thing she showed shock at had to do with Nagato's condition. Enemies do not shock her. She would not be 'scared' by Jugo's cannons.

Cool. :ugeek:

Kuromaki

12-08-2009, 03:35 PM

Jugo takes time to enter his mode as well. And unless he can get to her before she makes the handsign, he can't stop it. Once she makes it, her body's paper - you see the creases all throughout her body. It doesn't even take that much time to split it apart. If she was hit, it would most likely not even be hurtful, as it would help split the paper faster.
And she could buy herself time with some paper distractions - she's shown to be able to produce paper without being in complete paper mode, and use alot of it too - when she blanketed Yahiko and Nagato's bodies.

Her knowing the jutsu has little to nothing to do with the fact that if she still caught him before he could react. That translates to speed.

I said that Regular Jugo seems faster than CS, from what we've seen. Though it would seem that he was supposed to gain a speed boost, it doesn't seem to be that much faster at all.

I don't understand what you're trying to say by that. I seems that you're trying to say more paper she uses means more paper to destroy, right? Her swarm will get him before he fires the cannnons. They condensed from floating around a huge tower to a swarm in less than a panel, then surround him completely. When he fires the cannons, they get rid of the paper quite literally on him and in a small circular radius in front of him. The fact is that the cannons will destroy a small percent of her total paper. And once again, she has ridiculous regen when it comes to paper count.

The paper is harder to cut than you're giving it credit for. In fact, with cannon Konan, the literal strength of her paper has not been tested. From what we've seen, it seems very durable, used for shurikens and for weapons. If her paper wasn't as hard as metal, why would she be so confident in using them in attacks? She was going to spear someone with paper, so it must be potent, so it's probably more durable than you're giving it credit for because it's chakra enfused and used as weapons. Then, when it's flying in the air, you'll have to get it from the right angle, postion, and swing hard - and that's only for one piece. Konan has hundreds upon hundreds pieces of paper that are all coming at Jugo at once. He probably would not be able to take out multiple sheets very well - when he swings the paper would adhere to him and immobilize him. And yes, she can immobilize him. She was able to stop the movements of multiple ninja, so her paper weight is considerable, though she may have to use more than usual forJugo, she can undoubtedly do it.
It isn't normal paper, obviously.

They would still have to force their way through Konan's paper, and that would alert her. Really, this whole shock debate is irrelevant, as you seem to be trying to imploy plot. Konan attacked Jiraya because she had been ordered to be Pain. That was it. Her feelings didn't really matter at that point. She was also very calm and controlled althroughout the invasion. The only thing she showed shock at had to do with Nagato's condition. Enemies do not shock her. She would not be 'scared' by Jugo's cannons.

Cool. :ugeek:
Yeah about that, this is Jugo starting in CS2, Konan is already above base Jugo, and his transformation doesn't take a long time anyways.

Jugo can cut through those, or dodge them, and when he's bloodlusted he won't hesitate to use the cannon, at all.

Jiraiya got caught, but its not like the guy himself could dodge it. Jugo was fast enough to react to a bloodlusted Raikage - Raikage was inches away from hitting him, and he formed a shield to block it in time. This is while his arms were down and he wasn't yet going to attack.

The butterflies were coming to the swarm in the panel, while Pain was waiting, so most likely Konan had gathered them up and the remaining butterflies were flying to her swarm, right after she did her spying work.

Yeah Konan still tends to attack in one big swarm if it's one opponent, and the cannons can aim and obliterate the swarm. She makes the paper take the form of what she needs to use, and Jugo can deflect or block the incoming paper. This leaves her with suffocation using large swarms which can be taken out using the cannons, which once again have appeared in one panel.

I never said they would scare her, but why would she not be surprised at something she's never seen before?

Edit: Moving Asuma down, even though he can beat Temari

Yuuta

12-08-2009, 05:11 PM

Yeah about that, this is Jugo starting in CS2, Konan is already above base Jugo, and his transformation doesn't take a long time anyways.

Jugo can cut through those, or dodge them, and when he's bloodlusted he won't hesitate to use the cannon, at all.

Jiraiya got caught, but its not like the guy himself could dodge it. Jugo was fast enough to react to a bloodlusted Raikage - Raikage was inches away from hitting him, and he formed a shield to block it in time. This is while his arms were down and he wasn't yet going to attack.

The butterflies were coming to the swarm in the panel, while Pain was waiting, so most likely Konan had gathered them up and the remaining butterflies were flying to her swarm, right after she did her spying work.

Yeah Konan still tends to attack in one big swarm if it's one opponent, and the cannons can aim and obliterate the swarm. She makes the paper take the form of what she needs to use, and Jugo can deflect or block the incoming paper. This leaves her with suffocation using large swarms which can be taken out using the cannons, which once again have appeared in one panel.

I never said they would scare her, but why would she not be surprised at something she's never seen before?

Edit: Moving Asuma down, even though he can beat Temari

Yeah...From what he's shown, though, he still can't beat Konan.

The shields were most likely formed after he was already hit. What Jugo managed to do, most likely, was raise his arms before E hit him, and then he made the shield with his curse mark, after he was already hit.

If he won't hesitate to use them at all, then it's worse on his part. He'll probably end up wasting a lot of his chakra on trying to blast a few pieces of paper. That's a very good point you've brought up though, he's alot dumber in Stage 2, and would probably do alot of chakra wasting and pointless feats against an enemy that's surrounding him completely, resulting in him futilessly wasting a large amount of chakra, putting the battle even further in Konan's advantage. The way you're saying it, he'll most likely fire the cannons at the paper still in uncondensed swarm mode, taking out a ridiculously small amount of paper. That still doesn't change the fact that Konan gets him before he can fire. The cannons take too long and her swarm is too fast.

There's a good chance Ryuski couldn't dodge if he was on his own because his reaction time wouldn't be fast enough. But it was reliant on Jiraya's reaction time, not Ryuski's, since Jiraya was controlling him, showing that Konan is fast enough to catch Jiraya.

She had a much larger range to cover then, and she still brought them together quickly. Ontop of that, she formed in one panel against Jiraya, and dispersed in one with Pain. She can disperse and form quickly, definetly fast enough to evade Jugo.

That assumption is poorly founded. Konan is fully capable of controlling her swarm at high speeds, so she still catches him before he can fire. Why not, say he does manage to fire his cannons before Konan gets him. No big deal. Konan's swarm is fast, she is under consious control of all of her paper, so she could easily dodge it. And why not, say she's even hit. Still no big deal, Konan's paper swarm volume's is much greater than the radius of Jugo's cannons. It may take out 30% at best, and that's a one time go. After that, Konan has him, since he has a huge opening after he fires, and then she's all around him, absolutely impossible to take out with a cannon fire. Add her regeneration speed, and it's all but ineffective. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with suffocation, it's Konan's primary mode of attacking, and would most likely prove very effective on Jugo, immobilized by the weight of her paper. And the point that I keep bringing up, the tendrils would have to force their way through Konan's weighty paper, alerting Konan of something immediately, making it even more unlikely that she would be even grazed by the cannons.

If Konan's surprised by the cannons, she'll still have time to pull out of it. And why not, let's have her only partially escape, the cannons getting the bottom of her torso - no big deal at all. Konan was burned, and still regenerated herself back to an even longer torso, wings, and sleeves. She can regenerate, very quickly, from an attack like that. She can even exist as only a head. No big deal at all. And why not Jugo be confused by something he's never seen before? If Jugo's confused by the paper splitting, he'll have time to do all sorts of absolutely pointless taijutsu against it to put himself at an even greater disadvantage by letting the paper stick to him more easily, reciprocally.
The card you're trying to play works even worse on Jugo. He's at too large of a disadvantage.

Cool.:geek: I really think Temari could beat him in total skills, though.