Kisame vs. Itachi

[Fan of Minato]

Well I finally decided to make a thread here. xD

Who do you think will win?
Uptodate no restrictions.

Location: Where KB fought Kisame. xD
Range: 50 Meters apart.

I personally don't know who'd win this one...

EDIT: Kisame still has his sword by the way.

[Sephiroth]

I say itachi, beacuse if itachi got kisame in a genejutsu what would kisame do? i think that would be teh deciding factoer in this battle

[itachi uchiha1]

with itachi's knowlege and skills theres no way kisame can beat him...

[Jose]

I dont know there both pretty even matched it will come down to a battle of Ninjutsu though not Genjutsu because Kisame Shark Skin Sword will save him when caught.

Does Kisame get to have his sword here cause he lost it to KB

[Fan of Minato]

I dont know there both pretty even matched it will come down to a battle of Ninjutsu though not Genjutsu because Kisame Shark Skin Sword will save him when caught.

Does Kisame get to have his sword here cause he lost it to KB

Yes, Kisame has his sword. ^_^
So thats why people said he's ineffective against genjutsu. xD

[Sephiroth]

I dont know there both pretty even matched it will come down to a battle of Ninjutsu though not Genjutsu because Kisame Shark Skin Sword will save him when caught.

Does Kisame get to have his sword here cause he lost it to KB
But the problem with that here is that eh sharigan can see chakra rite.Then if its able to see chakra how does kakashi,sasuke,and itachi all get caught in genejutsu.So is it really chakra that makes the jutsu.

[Jose]

Yes, Kisame has his sword. ^_^
So thats why people said he's ineffective against genjutsu. xD

So then its a battle of Fire aganist Water. Sense genjutsu is useless aganist Kisame and his sword. Hmm i think Itachi once he uses his MS on Kisame.

[Jose]

But the problem with that here is that eh sharigan can see chakra rite.Then if its able to see chakra how does kakashi,sasuke,and itachi all get caught in genejutsu.So is it really chakra that makes the jutsu.

Yeah but Kisame Sword is alive which can break the genjutsu, just like with Naruto when he was caught by Itachi, Sakura and Chiyo gave Naruto all there chakra which broke the genjutsu. Kisame sword can do the same it will pour its chakra into Kisame if he is caught breaking the jutsu.

[Sephiroth]

Yeah but Kisame Sword is alive which can break the genjutsu, just like with Naruto when he was caught by Itachi, Sakura and Chiyo gave Naruto all there chakra which broke the genjutsu. Kisame sword can do the same it will pour its chakra into Kisame if he is caught breaking the jutsu.
Yes but could the sword help break the MS geneutsu

[321zigzag1]

Yes but could the sword help break the MS geneutsu

Not Tsukiyomi since its instant.

[Jose]

Yes but could the sword help break the MS geneutsu

Hmm thats quite a good question, am sure the stonger the genjutsu the more Chakra required to break it so i belive that if the sword pours enough chakra the MS genjutsu should be broken. But if not the sword can always attack Itachi.

[Sephiroth]

but what if itachi made shadow clones to protect him

[Jose]

but what if itachi made shadow clones to protect him

Well what if Kisame used Water Jutsu to flood the whole feild and summoned his own water clones. But itachi cant summon clones while doing genjutsu didnt you see when he faced sasuke neither moved. At anytime anyone could have came and cut off itachi head if it wasnt for kisame as gruad and zetus watching the battle.

[Sephiroth]

well kisame hasnt shown any such clone jutsu

[Jose]

well kisame hasnt shown any such clone jutsu

He made 3 water clones when he and Might Guy were facing off 3 water clones and a water prison in which he kept Tenten,Neji, and Lee.

[Yuuta]

I'm going to say Itachi, even Kisame acknowledged that he was stronger than him.
Itachi's main problem is the fact that he might overexert himself, but I think he'll be able to shut down Kisame with genjutsu and amateratsu.

[Sephiroth]

oh yeah i forgot sorry lol well i stilll say itachi wins

[321zigzag1]

Itachi wins due to MS hax.

[icy-j]

Hmm thats quite a good question, am sure the stonger the genjutsu the more Chakra required to break it so i belive that if the sword pours enough chakra the MS genjutsu should be broken. But if not the sword can always attack Itachi.

Samehada, I doubt it would be able to break Kisame out of Tsukuyomi. There is actually a pretty long debate about this fight on the Akatsuki power list thread, but I'll just put in a couple of counters to see what everyone else thinks about this fight.

The counter for Itachi's gen was saying Kisame could fight with his eyes closed, since he can sence the presence of chakra like he did against KB when KB sprayed ink. Here comes the debate about it though, I personally just took the feat that he can just sence the chakra presence, but the other side is they believe he can also sence chakra build up.

Another debate part is the bubble, and if Itachi can get out. The counter for that was making a few shadow clones and send them in different directions, since Kisame would have to choose one and then the bubble follows Kisame as a center piece.

The last part of major debate parts is the actually Samehada and how much it can absorb. On Kisame side, the opinion is that Samehada is able to absorb Susano'o once it attacks. Of course on the Itachi side they say it can't absorb all of it in one attack. There also the stamina factor, where Kisame debators say Itachi doesn't have that much, which is countered with the only fight we saw Itachi really fight in, he was sick and half blind. Itachi was still able to show better speed and Tai then Sasuke in the fight also. Then comes the water speed debate, but there really isn't no feats for characters in the water, except Kisame, KB, and maybe Guy.

Sorry for the wall of text, but just thought I would kinda throw in some current points, so we can hear your guys opinions.

[MannyGAGA]

hmmmmm this is an good fight,i cant say who will win.

kisame still has the chakra eating sword(forgot the name)great chakra,and one of the most deadly ninja swords men of the mist.

itachi has the eyes that hold some of the most powerful ninjustu and genjustu,plus his powerful taijustu stills that only come to the uchiha.

if itachi uses any the ninjustu,the sword will eat it,and if kisame uses he watersltye,itachi can use the eyes to use the same move.


i say its an tie or both die.

[zebrakiller]

if this is up to date kisame wins, he gave killer bee a lashing

[narutoultra]

Itachi wins, although kisame may be able to break genjutsu thanks to his sword[i don't think so], his one weakness is genjutsu. He has absolutly no defense for Tsukyomi, which lasts a couple milliseconds. in a taijutsu battle Kisame, In a ninjutsu battle Kisame, but overall Itachi.

[Steven]

Itachi wins I could give reasons, but there's no need.

[Lady Tsunade]

If Itachi catches Kisame in Ammy I think hes pretty done for,not to mention I think Itachis speed is better than Kisames,he could probsb catch him off guard.

[deidara330]

I'm going to take a risk and say that Kisame wins. His Water Style: Big Wave Explosion is probably mid to high supersonic, since even Sabu and KB couldn't react to it or avoid it (Chapter 471 Page 16). Amaterasu hits whatever it's looking at, so becuase Itachi would be looking right at the water the Amaterasu couldn't move through the water to hit Kisame. Susano'o doesn't work, since it's not fast enough to catch Kisame (Chapter 472 Pages 2-6) and it drains Itachi's life force. Obviously, since Water Style beats Fire Style, He can't use Fire Style jutsu underwater. Kisame can sense chakra while in the water dome, (Chapter 472 Pages 10-11) so he could track Itachi with his eyes closed, making Genjutsu useless. It also alerts Kisame to any explosion water clones Itachi would make, so he could avoid them. Although it wasn't technically shown, it's possible he could simply absorb all of the chakra from the clones and make them disappear before they explode. And of course, Samehada heals any injuries Kisame takes using stolen chakra from Itachi. It also heals him at an incredibly fast rate (Chapter 471 Page 15). Taijutsu clearly fails, since Fused Kisame can absorb chakra upon contact with his body (Chapter 472 Page 8).


If you wish to argue with anything I've said, look at the page I refferenced before arguing with it.


I say itachi, beacuse if itachi got kisame in a genejutsu what would kisame do? i think that would be teh deciding factoer in this battle
Kisame avoids Genjutsu by closing his eyes. When in the Water Dome, Kisame can sense chakra and so doesn't need his eyes open. When not in the Water Dome, Samehada senses it for him. He also uses Big Wave Explosion to create the water dome so he can effectively fight.
with itachi's knowlege and skills theres no way kisame can beat him...
How does intelligence beat Kisame?
well kisame hasnt shown any such clone jutsu
Re-read Kisame VS Guy, he used three water clones.
I'm going to say Itachi, even Kisame acknowledged that he was stronger than him.
Itachi's main problem is the fact that he might overexert himself, but I think he'll be able to shut down Kisame with genjutsu and amateratsu.
Kakuzu acknowledged Hidan as stronger than him, and he roflstomps Hidan. As I said before, Genjutsu is nothing for Kisame.
Itachi wins, although kisame may be able to break genjutsu thanks to his sword[i don't think so], his one weakness is genjutsu. He has absolutly no defense for Tsukyomi, which lasts a couple milliseconds. in a taijutsu battle Kisame, In a ninjutsu battle Kisame, but overall Itachi.
See above.
If Itachi catches Kisame in Ammy I think hes pretty done for,not to mention I think Itachis speed is better than Kisames,he could probsb catch him off guard.
Water Dome would block Ammy, Amaterasu can't bypass the water in front of it. Itachi's speed is probably better, but from what we've seen Kisame could nearly match. With Big Wave Explosion, Itachi can't avoid it, and his Amaterasu can't move through it.

[mdog3160]

i dont know who will win because itachi can use ms on kisame,but kisame can use his big sword,and summon clones

[narutoultra]

About his counter for MS, it should be assumed he doesn't know that Itachi even has it.

[icy-j]

I'm going to take a risk and say that Kisame wins. His Water Style: Big Wave Explosion is probably mid to high supersonic, since even Sabu and KB couldn't react to it or avoid it (Chapter 471 Page 16). Amaterasu hits whatever it's looking at, so becuase Itachi would be looking right at the water the Amaterasu couldn't move through the water to hit Kisame. Susano'o doesn't work, since it's not fast enough to catch Kisame (Chapter 472 Pages 2-6) and it drains Itachi's life force. Obviously, since Water Style beats Fire Style, He can't use Fire Style jutsu underwater. Kisame can sense chakra while in the water dome, (Chapter 472 Pages 10-11) so he could track Itachi with his eyes closed, making Genjutsu useless. It also alerts Kisame to any explosion water clones Itachi would make, so he could avoid them. Although it wasn't technically shown, it's possible he could simply absorb all of the chakra from the clones and make them disappear before they explode. And of course, Samehada heals any injuries Kisame takes using stolen chakra from Itachi. It also heals him at an incredibly fast rate (Chapter 471 Page 15). Taijutsu clearly fails, since Fused Kisame can absorb chakra upon contact with his body (Chapter 472 Page 8).


If you wish to argue with anything I've said, look at the page I refferenced before arguing with it.



Kisame avoids Genjutsu by closing his eyes. When in the Water Dome, Kisame can sense chakra and so doesn't need his eyes open. When not in the Water Dome, Samehada senses it for him. He also uses Big Wave Explosion to create the water dome so he can effectively fight.

How does intelligence beat Kisame?

Re-read Kisame VS Guy, he used three water clones.

Kakuzu acknowledged Hidan as stronger than him, and he roflstomps Hidan. As I said before, Genjutsu is nothing for Kisame.

See above.

Water Dome would block Ammy, Amaterasu can't bypass the water in front of it. Itachi's speed is probably better, but from what we've seen Kisame could nearly match. With Big Wave Explosion, Itachi can't avoid it, and his Amaterasu can't move through it.


Countered all of these in my debate against Kisame, and I know you read the debate, but I'll counter a few of your points. Kisame has once again never shown to be able to create clones while merged with Samehada. Itachi gets out of his bubble with a few clones. Sends them into different dirrections and Kisame as the center piece to the bubble would have to choose one, while the others get out. Look at the manga page 10 for the actual size.

Yes, Kisame would have to fight with his eyes close and yes he can sense the presence of chakra, but that doesn't mean it is either clear, or that he can sense chakra build up. Amatersu can not be blocked by his wave. Read over Amatersu it said to be able to still flame through water. Tsukomyi beats Kisame he ever opens his eyes, and no Samehada would not be able to break him out of it, but it should be able to break him out of regular gen.

What do u mean Susano'o won't hit him? So now you are assuming a Kisame who has his eyes close, and is simply coming by chakra presence can dodge Amatersu and Susano'o not to mention Itachi has shown to be faster and better Tai then Sasuke, when he was SICK, half blind, and holding back, so this counters people saying Itachi wouldn't and doesn't have stam. Also, there is no water speed feats except for Kisame, KB, and Guy, before you start talking about speed in water.

Just a few counters, and I'll counter the rest after you repost something, that I probally already countered before. Haven't even touched on Sharingan helping Itachi dodge, or MS.

[321zigzag1]

Countered all of these in my debate against Kisame, and I know you read the debate, but I'll counter a few of your points. Kisame has once again never shown to be able to create clones while merged with Samehada. Itachi gets out of his bubble with a few clones. Sends them into different dirrections and Kisame as the center piece to the bubble would have to choose one, while the others get out. Look at the manga page 10 for the actual size.
.

Because he had no reason too. Kisame has hands he can use jutsu.

Also just a pointer, Kisamehada fusion is very fast in the water even faster than Killerbee in tailed mode admitted by the Hachibi himself.

Itachi is not going to outrun Kisame at all.

Anyway Itachi will win due to MS Hax.

[icy-j]

Because he had no reason too. Kisame has hands he can use jutsu.

Also just a pointer, Kisamehada fusion is very fast in the water even faster than Killerbee in tailed mode admitted by the Hachibi himself.

Itachi is not going to outrun Kisame at all.

Anyway Itachi will win due to MS Hax.

Hmm I guess you didn't read what I posted. It is cleared stated to prove that Kisame hasn't shown the feat to be able to create clones while merged.

I have already touched about water speed. We don't know how fast Itachi is in water.

I know I haven't even touched on MS, another thing about Amatersu is that Raikage was barely even able to move a little out of the way to avoid a fatal blow. You can't tell me you think a Kisame with his eyes close can compare to Raikage's speed with his Raiton Armor.

[321zigzag1]

Hmm I guess you didn't read what I posted. It is cleared stated to prove that Kisame hasn't shown the feat to be able to create clones while merged.

I have already touched about water speed. We don't know how fast Itachi is in water.

I know I haven't even touched on MS, another thing about Amatersu is that Raikage was barely even able to move a little out of the way to avoid a fatal blow. You can't tell me you think a Kisame with his eyes close can compare to Raikage's speed with his Raiton Armor.

What reason you think can't? So he fuses then he loses the ability?

So Itachi is faster than Tailed Mode Killerbee?

All I know is that Tailed Mode Killerbee is very fast even faster than Base Killerbee supersonic mode.
If Kisamehada is faster than Tailed Mode Killerbee it is supersonic+ even possibly low hypersonic.
Raikage was similarly considered to be high supersonic and possible low hypersonic so.

[kakashi 4]

I say Itachi would win 'cause what would Kisame do if Itachi caught him in Tuskiomey

[kakashi 4]

btw. Itachi is awsome!

[kakashi 4]

Who is Killer Bee? He sounds like a superhero.

[icy-j]

What reason you think can't? So he fuses then he loses the ability?

So Itachi is faster than Tailed Mode Killerbee?

All I know is that Tailed Mode Killerbee is very fast even faster than Base Killerbee supersonic mode.
If Kisamehada is faster than Tailed Mode Killerbee it is supersonic+ even possibly low hypersonic.
Raikage was similarly considered to be high supersonic and possible low hypersonic so.

Sigh, I don't know what you are getting at. I am simply stating we haven't seen what he can do when merged with Samehada. There is no FEAT.

When did I say he was faster then KB. lol, I simply said we don't know how fast any characters are in the water besides Kisame, KB, and Guy.

Don't know were you are going with all the speed talk about him being supersonic, but I'll just say you should change Kisamehada to Kisamehada in the water is the one that fast. I already stated how Itachi can get out of the Bubble.

[kakashi 4]

I've been hearing alot about him lately.

[kakashi 4]

Yay! 70th post!

[icy-j]

Who is Killer Bee? He sounds like a superhero.


He is overrated, and pretty much got destroyed by Kisame with little effort.

[Kuromaki]

Yay! 70th post!
No offense but, nobody cares, you're just spamming.

[deidara330]

He is overrated, and pretty much got destroyed by Kisame with little effort.
Overrated? Sasuke's Sharingan couldn't keep up with him, and he could destroy a mountain in Biju form. He would've stomped Kisame if he went the full eight tails from the very start.

[321zigzag1]

Sigh, I don't know what you are getting at. I am simply stating we haven't seen what he can do when merged with Samehada. There is no FEAT.

When did I say he was faster then KB. lol, I simply said we don't know how fast any characters are in the water besides Kisame, KB, and Guy.

Don't know were you are going with all the speed talk about him being supersonic, but I'll just say you should change Kisamehada to Kisamehada in the water is the one that fast. I already stated how Itachi can get out of the Bubble.

Granted its limited but Kisamehada not forming clones seems more likely in character from Kisame's part rather than he cannot.

Gai was never in the water.

Granted, I meant Kisamehada in water.
The speed talk was based on Killerbee's speed feat back when he fought with Sasuke.
Itachi with clones is a tricky one. Since Kisame still can see the original caster. Itachi summoning clones still doesn't change the fact Kisame still knows the original's location. Unless Itachi mixes himself up.

[321zigzag1]

Overrated? Sasuke's Sharingan couldn't keep up with him, and he could destroy a mountain in Biju form. He would've stomped Kisame if he went the full eight tails from the very start.

looked more like multiple small mountains to me but hey whatever.

[deidara330]

looked more like multiple small mountains to me but hey whatever.
I think it would depend on multiple small mountains being in the same area.

[icy-j]

Overrated? Sasuke's Sharingan couldn't keep up with him, and he could destroy a mountain in Biju form. He would've stomped Kisame if he went the full eight tails from the very start.

Yes overrated, Sasuke maybe couldn't fully keep up with him, but in my opinion he is still overrated. I would also debate for Kisame on how he would beat KB even if he did go eight tails at the start, no way Kisame would of gotten stomped. Anyways, you stated you wanted to debate for Kisame against Itachi, so I am waiting for your counter post.

[321zigzag1]

I think it would depend on multiple small mountains being in the same area.

Well it devasted the valley.
Anyway at least large mountain I think.

[icy-j]

Granted its limited but Kisamehada not forming clones seems more likely in character from Kisame's part rather than he cannot.

Gai was never in the water.

Granted, I meant Kisamehada in water.
The speed talk was based on Killerbee's speed feat back when he fought with Sasuke.
Itachi with clones is a tricky one. Since Kisame still can see the original caster. Itachi summoning clones still doesn't change the fact Kisame still knows the original's location. Unless Itachi mixes himself up.

Doesn't matter if its more likely, it still requires a feat.

I am pretty sure Gai got sent into the water against Kisame 30%, but I could be wrong it was a while back.

Lol, how can u see the original. First, Kisame has his eyes close and is going by chakra presence. Also have you not seen people use shadow clones? You can't tell which is the original simply after the jutsu. Pretty bad.

[321zigzag1]

Doesn't matter if its more likely, it still requires a feat.

I am pretty sure Gai got sent into the water against Kisame 30%, but I could be wrong it was a while back.

Lol, how can u see the original. First, Kisame has his eyes close and is going by chakra presence. Also have you not seen people use shadow clones? You can't tell which is the original simply after the jutsu. Pretty bad.

So since he didn't show it he can't use it. Thats sound like what it is.
Anyway Kisamehada hasn't shown such yet so it will be assumed he won't so.



I was going by the route Kisame hasn't closed his eyes.

Also the original casts the shadow clones. The opponent can still see the same original dude in the same location. Its not like once the jutsu is cast the clones and the original auto mix themselves up. Again going by sight.

[deidara330]

Yes overrated, Sasuke maybe couldn't fully keep up with him, but in my opinion he is still overrated. I would also debate for Kisame on how he would beat KB even if he did go eight tails at the start, no way Kisame would of gotten stomped. Anyways, you stated you wanted to debate for Kisame against Itachi, so I am waiting for your counter post.
Well, I made a counter, but my computer froze, so I had to close the internet and re-make my counter which I didn't feel like doing. (The re-making part). Besides, you'ra already debating this with zigzag. I mostly chose Kisame because no one in this entire thread stood up for him, but I do honestly believe he would win.

[321zigzag1]

Well, I made a counter, but my computer froze, so I had to close the internet and re-make my counter which I didn't feel like doing. (The re-making part). Besides, you'ra already debating this with zigzag. I mostly chose Kisame because no one in this entire thread stood up for him, but I do honestly believe he would win.


In my opinion Kisame win advantage occurs when he successfully traps Itachi in the water dome.

[deidara330]

In my opinion Kisame win advantage occurs when he successfully traps Itachi in the water dome.
Major advantage.

[icy-j]

So since he didn't show it he can't use it. Thats sound like what it is.
Anyway Kisamehada hasn't shown such yet so it will be assumed he won't so.



I was going by the route Kisame hasn't closed his eyes.

Also the original casts the shadow clones. The opponent can still see the same original dude in the same location. Its not like once the jutsu is cast the clones and the original auto mix themselves up. Again going by sight.

Well, Kisame isn't dead yet, and we haven't seen all he can do yet.

If Kisame doesn't close his eyes, then Tsukoyomi wins.

As for the clones, I am going by sight also. Everytime Naruto uses it or some other character, we or their enemy doesn't know the original simply from the jutsu. Also Itachi would most likely need around 5-10 shadow clones to get out of the bubble.

[321zigzag1]

Major advantage.

Yep this.

Well, Kisame isn't dead yet, and we haven't seen all he can do yet.

If Kisame doesn't close his eyes, then Tsukoyomi wins.

As for the clones, I am going by sight also. Everytime Naruto uses it or some other character, we or their enemy doesn't know the original simply from the jutsu. Also Itachi would most likely need around 5-10 shadow clones to get out of the bubble.


Perhaps if Kisame is close enough distance like 5 meters.

Well Itachi better do it fastest possible he can but once in the water dome he is at a major disadvantage unless Susanoo can do wonders.

[icy-j]

Well, I made a counter, but my computer froze, so I had to close the internet and re-make my counter which I didn't feel like doing. (The re-making part). Besides, you'ra already debating this with zigzag. I mostly chose Kisame because no one in this entire thread stood up for him, but I do honestly believe he would win.

No problem, and no need to make a counter, I guess. I am about to watch Monday Night Football anyways. Zigzag went with Itachi, and is now changeing to Kisame, and no offence but he isn't as good as you or Kisame debating for Kisame.

[icy-j]

In my opinion Kisame win advantage occurs when he successfully traps Itachi in the water dome.

Rofl are you both serious? I have given so many counters to Kisame's water dome or bubble.

[321zigzag1]

No problem, and no need to make a counter, I guess. I am about to watch Monday Night Football anyways. Zigzag went with Itachi, and is now changeing to Kisame, and no offence but he isn't as good as you or Kisame debating for Kisame.

Never happened. When did I change my opinion?

I said MS hax and never diverted from that.

[icy-j]

Never happened. When did I change my opinion?

I said MS hax and never diverted from that.

Well you are debating for Kisame and you posted Kisame has a win advantage, so I am assuming you think Kisame would win.

[321zigzag1]

Well you are debating for Kisame and you posted Kisame has a win advantage, so I am assuming you think Kisame would win.

I meant Kisame has better advantage in the water than Itachi.

Neve changed my opinion.
I even mentioned when I replied to you first time Itachi wins MS hax.

[deidara330]

Well, Kisame isn't dead yet, and we haven't seen all he can do yet.

So it's entirely possible that next chapter he gets an upgrade so hax this entire debate will be renderred pointless or have to be re-debated.

If Kisame doesn't close his eyes, then Tsukoyomi wins.

So he closes his eyes and uses chakrea sensing.

As for the clones, I am going by sight also.

I know I'm late in this debate, but I'm not.

Everytime Naruto uses it or some other character, we or their enemy doesn't know the original simply from the jutsu.

Neji during the chunnin exams with Byakugan. Any sensory type shinobi, such as Kisame, can tell the real one apart since chakra isn't equally distributed in the jutsu's basic form. If Itachi does equally distribute, he loses at least half his chakra on one clone. Bad move.

Also Itachi would most likely need around 5-10 shadow clones to get out of the bubble.
Yeah, if he tries to equally distribute chakra among ten clones, it leaves him with a tenth of his chakra. Even with five, it's still 20%. A real, flesh and blood clone with 30% chakra got defeated by Kakashi and Naruto without Mangekyo or Sage Mode, and without help from Sakura and Chiyo. Kisame, who is probably a few levels abovve Kakashi and base Naruto without FRS or SM could defeat Itachi at 20%.

[icy-j]

I meant Kisame has better advantage in the water than Itachi.

Neve changed my opinion.
I even mentioned when I replied to you first time Itachi wins MS hax.

Fair enough. Anyways, I am leaving I'll let you debate for Itachi then if there is a Kisame counter post or something.

[deidara330]

No problem, and no need to make a counter, I guess. I am about to watch Monday Night Football anyways. Zigzag went with Itachi, and is now changeing to Kisame, and no offence but he isn't as good as you or Kisame debating for Kisame.
Wow, well thanks.

[321zigzag1]

Wow, well thanks.

lol
be honored.

To be praised by another is very worth it.

[icy-j]

Yeah, if he tries to equally distribute chakra among ten clones, it leaves him with a tenth of his chakra. Even with five, it's still 20%. A real, flesh and blood clone with 30% chakra got defeated by Kakashi and Naruto without Mangekyo or Sage Mode, and without help from Sakura and Chiyo. Kisame, who is probably a few levels abovve Kakashi and base Naruto without FRS or SM could defeat Itachi at 20%.

Quick counters before I leave. First, rofl Tsukoyomi is instant, buddy. Kisame can't be like open his eyes, and then o here comes Tsukoyomi time to close my eyes. lol.

If you are really trying to compare Neji who has byakugan with Kisame's sensory ability. Then you are not as good as I thought. Look back on the only Kisame feat for his sensory ability. Not only does Kisame have his eye's open, but all he did was simply sence KB's chakra presence in front of him. This feat shows no where near the ability Neji was shown to see ninja's chakra flow, or chakra build up.

[deidara330]

Quick counters before I leave.

Aww, well now I won't be able to debate with you.

First, rofl Tsukoyomi is instant, buddy.

I know that.

Kisame can't be like open his eyes, and then o here comes Tsukoyomi time to close my eyes. lol.

Why does he have to?

If you are really trying to compare Neji who has byakugan with Kisame's sensory ability. Then you are not as good as I thought.

I'm not comparing them. I'm saying any sensor, not just Neji, could notice the difference between a clones chakra and the real thing.

Look back on the only Kisame feat for his sensory ability.

Okay.

Not only does Kisame have his eye's open, but all he did was simply sence KB's chakra presence in front of him.

He doesn't see the chakra, he senses it with Samehada fused in him. He even said he can sense chakra, not see it.

This feat shows no where near the ability Neji was shown to see ninja's chakra flow, or chakra build up.
He doesn't need to see chakra flow, or build up (although I'm not sure what you mean by that). He only needs to tell that one Itachi has more chakra than the rest, which I know is possible since Samehada was able to track KB due to huge chakra (I believe this was what Kisame said/implied before the fight started, but not entirely sure).

[321zigzag1]

Just noting Kisame has to make eye contact with Itachi on Tsukiyomi. Considering Kisame has knowledge on that he doesn't need to make eye contact.

[icy-j]

He doesn't need to see chakra flow, or build up (although I'm not sure what you mean by that). He only needs to tell that one Itachi has more chakra than the rest, which I know is possible since Samehada was able to track KB due to huge chakra (I believe this was what Kisame said/implied before the fight started, but not entirely sure).

What I mean by that is, because you were trying to compare Neji with Kisame as if they were on the same sensory level. Build up as in before Itachi could cast amatersu on a Kisame with his eyes close, Kisame would see Itachi about to use it. It was one of the debate parts, when I was debating Kisame.

A feat to prove Kisame couldn't dodge it would be how Raikage with his Raiton Armor was barely able to dodge it and still got hit against Sasuke.

How could he tell, if Itachi simply just keeps his clones with the same chakra. Same as Naruto did against Neji when they fought who has proven to have way better sensory feats.

[icy-j]

Just noting Kisame has to make eye contact with Itachi on Tsukiyomi. Considering Kisame has knowledge on that he doesn't need to make eye contact.

What is he going to do look at the feet. Don't try to say he can fight like Gai no who practiced it to beat Kakashi. Also Itachi can just use a simple finger gen forceing Samehada to get him out taking up time. Basically the same thing as fighting with his eyes closed.

[dragonjinchuriki dj]

itachi because once he looks into his eyes under tsukyuomi=game over

didnt train to look at just his opponents feet who posseses the sharingan like gai did so he'd have a huge disadvantage

even though samehada can absorb chakra there is no way it could absorb susano'o completley then gets hit with susano'os genjutsu blade causing an endless genjutsu=game over

or itachi can just finish it quick with amaterasu=game over

NOTE: i am not an itachi fan boy i actually like kisame a little more than him but itachi's just that strong in my opinion

[321zigzag1]

What is he going to do look at the feet. Don't try to say he can fight like Gai no who practiced it to beat Kakashi. Also Itachi can just use a simple finger gen forceing Samehada to get him out taking up time. Basically the same thing as fighting with his eyes closed.

*sigh*

Since Kisame has Knowledge on the MS technique I suggested that he can make effort of trying to make eye contact.
Geez man.

There have been those who argued samehada can giving somewhat genjutsu immunity to Kisame because of outside chakra flowing.

[icy-j]

itachi because once he looks into his eyes under tsukyuomi=game over

didnt train to look at just his opponents feet who posseses the sharingan like gai did so he'd have a huge disadvantage

even though samehada can absorb chakra there is no way it could absorb susano'o completley then gets hit with susano'os genjutsu blade causing an endless genjutsu=game over

or itachi can just finish it quick with amaterasu=game over

NOTE: i am not an itachi fan boy i actually like kisame a little more than him but itachi's just that strong in my opinion

Exactly what I am saying, and Kisame is actually my 2nd favorite, but I just don't see him being able to win yet. Unless he shows some more future feats before he dies.

[icy-j]

*sigh*

Since Kisame has Knowledge on the MS technique I suggested that he can make effort of trying to make eye contact.
Geez man.

There have been those who argued samehada can giving somewhat genjutsu immunity to Kisame because of outside chakra flowing.

He has some knowledge, but not all. I doubt he has seen Amatersu or Susano'o.

Genjutsu immunity is a funny fanboy statement made. Yes, his Samehada can break him out of gen, but once again I doubt it can break him out of Tsukoyomi.

[deidara330]

What I mean by that is, because you were trying to compare Neji with Kisame as if they were on the same sensory level.

Certainly not the same sensory level, but fairly close.

Build up as in before Itachi could cast amatersu on a Kisame with his eyes close, Kisame would see Itachi about to use it.

It wouldn't matter as Amaterasu can't simply fly through the water and he could sense the chakra of the released Amaterasu.

It was one of the debate parts, when I was debating Kisame.

Sorry, I just didn't pay too much attention to that.

A feat to prove Kisame couldn't dodge it would be how Raikage with his Raiton Armor was barely able to dodge it and still got hit against Sasuke.

Dodge what, exactly?

How could he tell, if Itachi simply just keeps his clones with the same chakra.

I don't see how this helps Itachi. For this to work, Itachi would have to lose at least fifty percent of his chakra to equally distribute. And that's his remaining chakra, so it may not even be 100% of his full chakra capacity. Making two clones forces him to lose 66% of remaining chakra, 3 clones as 75%, but I don't think I need to explain the math. Basically, he has to make one clone or else he doesn't make any and the plan is pointless. this leaves him with half chakra, in which case Kisame would more easily defeat the real one. And of course, it's a fifty-fifty chance he gets the real one if they split up, in which case the plan failed.

Same as Naruto did against Neji when they fought who has proven to have way better sensory feats.
He had better sensory feats in the way that he could do different things with sensory. We're only discussing chakra amounts, in which case Kisame could tell the difference between an unevenly distributed Shadow Clone from Itachi.
He has some knowledge, but not all. I doubt he has seen Amatersu or Susano'o.

Genjutsu immunity is a funny fanboy statement made. Yes, his Samehada can break him out of gen, but once again I doubt it can break him out of Tsukoyomi.
He saw Amaterasu at the inn during the Tsunade Search Arc.

[321zigzag1]

He has some knowledge, but not all. I doubt he has seen Amatersu or Susano'o.

Genjutsu immunity is a funny fanboy statement made. Yes, his Samehada can break him out of gen, but once again I doubt it can break him out of Tsukoyomi.

Yes he has at least once in the Toad prison escape in part 1.

Indeed. No Tsukoyomi can't be broken by that since it lasts a second.

[icy-j]

He had better sensory feats in the way that he could do different things with sensory. We're only discussing chakra amounts, in which case Kisame could tell the difference between an unevenly distributed Shadow Clone from Itachi.

He saw Amaterasu at the inn during the Tsunade Search Arc.

Ya forgot about that when Itachi used it to escape. No need to debate about Sensory with you, if you think he is close to Neji, based on just sensing KB right in front of him. So bad. What do mean Itachi can't evenly distribute between his clones? When Naruto pre-ship could? Not only Kisame had his eyes open on his only sensory feat.

Your debating for Kisame but your are avoiding Amatersu hitting Kisame when Raikage was barely able to dodge and still got hit. Your avoiding pretty much all the major parts, and you keep acting like Kisame's one feat of sensing chakra makes him able to be compared with all the top sensory ninjas.

[deidara330]

Ya forgot about that when Itachi used it to escape.

What does he do when he escapes? I see him in an even worse position if he leaves the water dome and Kisame is still in it.

No need to debate about Sensory with you, if you think he is close to Neji, based on just sensing KB right in front of him. So bad.

He can see the Keirakukei, and his Byakugan can also see 360 degree vision for hundreds of meters away. I'm just saying in terms of chakra amounts. He obviously can't SEE the chakra, but I doubt he can't sense the amount of chakra a person has.

What do mean Itachi can't evenly distribute between his clones? When Naruto pre-ship could?

I didn't say he can't, I said he can't without losing half his chakra. At the least.

Not only Kisame had his eyes open on his only sensory feat.

He couldn't see through the ink, and he said he sensed the chakra and not saw it.

Your debating for Kisame but your are avoiding Amatersu hitting Kisame when Raikage was barely able to dodge and still got hit.

I thought I covered that when I said Amaterasu can't turn intangible and pass through water. It's not a solid, but obviously due to it's molecular structure the Amaterasu can't pass through it.

Your avoiding pretty much all the major parts, and you keep acting like Kisame's one feat of sensing chakra makes him able to be compared with all the top sensory ninjas.
What major parts am I avoiding? And I'm not trying to compare him to the sensory's who can sense miles away, see the entire chakra network, smell out the opponent, any of that. I'm saying he can detect how much chakra a person has, and how far away they are. Not even at the same level as Neji, but enough to tell a clone from a legitimate person.

[icy-j]

What major parts am I avoiding? And I'm not trying to compare him to the sensory's who can sense miles away, see the entire chakra network, smell out the opponent, any of that. I'm saying he can detect how much chakra a person has, and how far away they are. Not even at the same level as Neji, but enough to tell a clone from a legitimate person.

Sorry, I am done if you actually think Itachi makeing 5 shadow clones and making them even takes half of his chakra. What do mean Kisame's wave can stop Amatersu? How does Kisame even see it coming with his eye's close? Amatersu is already stated to be able to burn in water. Hell the more I think about it, Itachi doesn't even need to leave the water dome to win this. Point you are avoiding Susano'o, and some of the other features of Amatersu I have stated. Next, I guess you will say he just dodges Amatersu and Susano'o.

You also haven't even stated how Kisame beats Itachi. I love having to repeat the same feats, and ways Itachi wins. I can't wait to see how you explain how he dodges an instant Amatersu that not even Raikage with his Raiton armor dodge, and even how does know when to use that wave, when Amatersu is pretty much instant with maybe a second before it is used to move a little proven by Raikage.(spam waves? lol)

[deidara330]

Sorry, I am done if you actually think Itachi makeing 5 shadow clones and making them even takes half of his chakra.
I'll counter the rest later, but I just want to clear something up. If Kisame has a good enough detection rate of how much chakra is in a person or clone, then Itachi must distribute the chakra EVENLY between the clones or else Kisame will see through the ruse and immediately head for the real one.

[icy-j]

I'll counter the rest later, but I just want to clear something up. If Kisame has a good enough detection rate of how much chakra is in a person or clone, then Itachi must distribute the chakra EVENLY between the clones or else Kisame will see through the ruse and immediately head for the real one.

Lol horrible counter. First when has it said Kisame can sense how much chakra a person has. Once again I am repeating myself, but the only Kisame feat that he had was, he was able to sense KB's chakra in front of him. That doesn't mean he can sense the total amount of chakra a person has.

You act like distributing your chakra evenly between clones is hard. Hell genin can evenly distribute their chakra, proven by naruto and Konohomiru ( who fooled Pain). I could also give so many feats on how 5 simple shadow clones don't even dent a person's chakra, but I doubt you accept it since you actually think 50% chakra is what it would take for Itachi to make 5 clones.

[deidara330]

Lol horrible counter.

We can debate without you judging how good my counters are.

First when has it said Kisame can sense how much chakra a person has. Once again I am repeating myself, but the only Kisame feat that he had was, he was able to sense KB's chakra in front of him. That doesn't mean he can sense the total amount of chakra a person has.

I think in chapter 468, it said how Samehada tracked KB's powerful chakra.

You act like distributing your chakra evenly between clones is hard. Hell genin can evenly distribute their chakra, proven by naruto and Konohomiru ( who fooled Pain). I could also give so many feats on how 5 simple shadow clones don't even dent a person's chakra, but I doubt you accept it since you actually think 50% chakra is what it would take for Itachi to make 5 clones.
I didn't say that distributing the chakra would be hard. What I'm saying is that for Itachi to distribute the chakra evenly, he and the Shadow Clones all have to have the exact same amount of chakra. If one has less than him, then it's not even.

[icy-j]

I didn't say that distributing the chakra would be hard. What I'm saying is that for Itachi to distribute the chakra evenly, he and the Shadow Clones all have to have the exact same amount of chakra. If one has less than him, then it's not even.

Well that is kinda what you do when you distribute chakra between your shadow clones lol. Yes, his Samehada was able to track his chakra, but that doesn't mean it was able to sense the exact amount of chakra he has.

If you can reply to these minor posts, then quit avoiding the main one. Also, I am only calling your counters bad, because well some of them are pretty bad. Hint: 5 clones would use up 50% of Itachi's chakra. Then your avoiding the main post. Overrating Kisame's sensing by comparing it to Neji and then saying he can sense the exact amount of chakra a person has. Overrating how actually easy to make a few clones and distribute them easily.

[deidara330]

Well that is kinda what you do when you distribute chakra between your shadow clones lol. Yes, his Samehada was able to track his chakra, but that doesn't mean it was able to sense the exact amount of chakra he has.

Well, from a distance he was able to tell KB had powerful chakra, so that should say something about his sensory skills.

If you can reply to these minor posts, then quit avoiding the main one.

I'm not avoiding them, so don't make assumptions. You're assuming that I'm purposely avoiding countering other points, but what I'm trying to do is get you do understand one of my counters which you do't seem to be doing.

Also, I am only calling your counters bad, because well some of them are pretty bad.

It's called an opinion, other people could say that my counters were good and you couldn't prove which one of you was right. IMO, your counters are bad.

Hint: 5 clones would use up 50% of Itachi's chakra. Then your avoiding the main post. Overrating Kisame's sensing by comparing it to Neji and then saying he can sense the exact amount of chakra a person has. Overrating how actually easy to make a few clones and distribute them easily.

Explain your reasoning to me. If Itachi distributes 50% of his chakra evenly among 5 clones, they each have 10% of his chakra. He himself still has 50% remaining. They don't have even chakra, so it makes no sense.

Okay, pretend the clones are people. Distribute 100% chakra among 5 people AKA 100 divided by 5, you get 20. Now do you see my reasoning? If Itachi distribute his chakra evenly among two created clones, him and each clone should have 33% of his chakra. I think this would require 66% of his chakra, would it not? Lets say he only creates one clone. HYPOTHETICALLY (I'm putting major stress on the word) Kisame has immense sensory prowess and can tell even the slightest chakra difference between a clone and the real one. Itachi must divide his chakra between himself and his clone, so if he gives his clone 40% of his chakra, then he still has 60% and Kisame goes after him. He has to give the clone 50% so Kisame can't tell the difference. I'm not trying to say that it actually costs him 50% every time he makes a clone, I'm saying it costs him 50% to make a clone with the same amount of chakra as him.

[icy-j]

Okay, pretend the clones are people. Distribute 100% chakra among 5 people AKA 100 divided by 5, you get 20. Now do you see my reasoning? If Itachi distribute his chakra evenly among two created clones, him and each clone should have 33% of his chakra. I think this would require 66% of his chakra, would it not? Lets say he only creates one clone. HYPOTHETICALLY (I'm putting major stress on the word) Kisame has immense sensory prowess and can tell even the slightest chakra difference between a clone and the real one. Itachi must divide his chakra between himself and his clone, so if he gives his clone 40% of his chakra, then he still has 60% and Kisame goes after him. He has to give the clone 50% so Kisame can't tell the difference. I'm not trying to say that it actually costs him 50% every time he makes a clone, I'm saying it costs him 50% to make a clone with the same amount of chakra as him.

Sigh, you took a while with this one, so I figured you might actually debate about the actually fight, but it seems you are just going to keep going on and on about shadow clones, and Kisame being able to sense the exact amount of chakra the person has. When his sensory feats are just being able to sense KB's chakra through Samehada, one time in front of him and the other from a distance. Neither one showing the ability to give him the exact amount of chakra KB had, just the ability to sense his chakra.

I don't see how my counters are bad, when I have given at least 4 ways Itachi would win, and you haven't given one, and I counter everything you say with feats. Since you don't want to go through my main post, but debate about shadow clones and overrate Kisame's sensory. Simply counter this, you countered Amatersu with a wave. I already countered this, but you ignored it, but I want to see if you can simply counter this. How does Kisame with his eyes close, actually know when to use his wave jutsu or wte, when Amatersu has proven to take maybe one second, based on Raikage with his Raiton Armor being able to dodge it barely from being fatal. Even though it is proven by feats and on the actually move that Amatersu can burn in water and through it.

This thread is pretty much done.

[deidara330]

Sigh, you took a while with this one, so I figured you might actually debate about the actually fight, but it seems you are just going to keep going on and on about shadow clones, and Kisame being able to sense the exact amount of chakra the person has. When his sensory feats are just being able to sense KB's chakra through Samehada, one time in front of him and the other from a distance. Neither one showing the ability to give him the exact amount of chakra KB had, just the ability to sense his chakra.

I'm not saying the exact amount. I'm saying, if Itachi didn't distribute chakra between the clones, not perfectly evenly but close enough, Kisame would be able to tell.

I don't see how my counters are bad, when I have given at least 4 ways Itachi would win, and you haven't given one,

Of course not, I'm debating for Kisame XD If you start getting all defensive about your counters when I think their bad you shouldn't be calling mine bad. That hardly has anything to do with the debate at all.

and I counter everything you say with feats. Since you don't want to go through my main post, but debate about shadow clones and overrate Kisame's sensory.

I don't think I'm overrating Kisame's sensory. If I am, I'm not trying to make it look like that.

Simply counter this, you countered Amatersu with a wave. I already countered this, but you ignored it, but I want to see if you can simply counter this.

I didn't ignore it, since I thought the Shadow Clone thing was more important.

How does Kisame with his eyes close, actually know when to use his wave jutsu or wte,

First move of the battle, first thing he does.

when Amatersu has proven to take maybe one second, based on Raikage with his Raiton Armor being able to dodge it barely from being fatal.

Not barely, I'd say it wasn't that close. Besides, I doubt it only takes a second, since Itachi still needs to activate Mangekyo and focus it on Kisame. Sasuke was already stated to have a better Amaterasu control than Itachi, so naturally Itachi's is a tad slowly. Not by an extreme amount, but enough to make a difference with Kisame.

Even though it is proven by feats and on the actually move that Amatersu can burn in water and through it.

My point isn't that it can't burn in water, since it obviously can. My point is that it can't pass THROUGH water. It burns water, but it can't pass through the water as though it's intangible. It has to burn through the water, it can't swim through water like a sentient being.

This thread is pretty much done.
You can't simply declare a debate done, that's not how it works. A debate is done when two people both agree on the same point and one has convinced the other. You haven't yet convinced me of anything.

[icy-j]

You can't simply declare a debate done, that's not how it works. A debate is done when two people both agree on the same point and one has convinced the other. You haven't yet convinced me of anything.

First, I am not getting defensive about my counters, since I am providing feats and ways Itachi would win. On the other hand most of your counters are overrating and talking about clones (when there isn't much to talk about it when it isn't hard to make a few shadow clones and evenly distribute.) and not giving any ways Kisame wins. Yes, you are overrating Kisame's Sensory, by giving him abilitys with no feats.

It looked pretty close to me. It also took out Raikage's arm while Raikage had his Raiton Armor. Raikage with his Armor is arguably the fastest character in naruto atm. Of couse Itachi is going to have his MS active. Amatersu itself is pretty much instance by this feat, where Raikage dodged it barely from hitting his chest or wte and making it fatal. Even though Raikage was able to dodge it, Kisame has shown no where close to the speed of Raikage even in the water, not to mention Kisame would have his eyes close. Also who cares what Sasuke stated. Sasuke has only seen Itachi use Amatersu when Itachi was holding back/half blind and not trying to kill Sasuke. Itachi was the one who gave Sasuke the ability, so don't even try to say Sasuke's is better.

What do you mean it can't pass through water. Do you even know what Amatersu is? It creates the black flames from where ever the caster wants to flames to come out off. Example it is similiar to Kakashi's Kumai. If you don't believe me look it up, or look at when Sasuke used it on Raikage. Feats prove it can burn in water. It isn't like a Fireball jutsu.

I don't even consider this a debate. More like a bunch of overrating, and spam about shadow clones. If you are no were close to being convinced, then there are three possibilities. One, your are Kisame fanboy, two you are not being open minded, or three your in denial that you are winning some how by avoiding obvious things and not even giving a way Kisame wins. Once again Kisame is my 2nd favorite character, but there is no way he wins this with his current feats.

[deidara330]

First, I am not getting defensive about my counters, since I am providing feats and ways Itachi would win.

Yes you are. The instant you read that you went to provide reasons why yours weren't bad and mine were. Besides that, I didn't bring it up in the first place, so there's no point in trying to say your better at this than me. Also, don't try and post saying that I think I'm better than you, because I never said that.

On the other hand most of your counters are overrating and talking about clones (when there isn't much to talk about it when it isn't hard to make a few shadow clones and evenly distribute.) and not giving any ways Kisame wins. Yes, you are overrating Kisame's Sensory, by giving him abilitys with no feats.

Check the VERY FIRST THING I posted in this thread. I gave five feats, and additionally refferenced the exact chapter and page from which I got each feat. I'm done arguing with you about overrating or avoiding points or about my counters being worse than yours, because that's hardly what we're debating.

It looked pretty close to me. It also took out Raikage's arm while Raikage had his Raiton Armor. Raikage with his Armor is arguably the fastest character in naruto atm. Of couse Itachi is going to have his MS active. Amatersu itself is pretty much instance by this feat, where Raikage dodged it barely from hitting his chest or wte and making it fatal. Even though Raikage was able to dodge it, Kisame has shown no where close to the speed of Raikage even in the water, not to mention Kisame would have his eyes close. Also who cares what Sasuke stated. Sasuke has only seen Itachi use Amatersu when Itachi was holding back/half blind and not trying to kill Sasuke. Itachi was the one who gave Sasuke the ability, so don't even try to say Sasuke's is better.

Umm, what exactly are you talking about here? If you don't mind, could you please quote what you counter with each paragraph in your posts? You don't have to, though.

What do you mean it can't pass through water. Do you even know what Amatersu is? It creates the black flames from where ever the caster wants to flames to come out off. Example it is similiar to Kakashi's Kumai. If you don't believe me look it up, or look at when Sasuke used it on Raikage. Feats prove it can burn in water. It isn't like a Fireball jutsu.

I'm not trying to say it can't burn the water, I'm trying to say it can't move through it. It hit where the caster sees, but it always stopped at a solid and never passed through. It passed through the air because the molecules in air were loosely packed. Liquid has a tighter molecular structure, so even if the Flames passed through some of the water, they couldn't completely pass through the water.

I don't even consider this a debate.

I'm making points, you counter them, that's a debate. How exactly do you define debate, because I've debated with someone who overrated Minato and it was still a debate. I actually looked this up in the dictionary, it's a debate.

More like a bunch of overrating, and spam about shadow clones. If you are no were close to being convinced, then there are three possibilities. One, your are Kisame fanboy,

Ha, I'm a very proud Deidara fanboy as anyone can tell from my profile. 1 is impossible.

two you are not being open minded,

Possibly, I usually enter a debate going only by what I remember and not looking up feats because I'm too lazy. My two goals in a debate are 1. To convince the opposing side that (Blank) character would win. 2. If one is not possible, convince the opposing side that the match would be closer than it was originally thought by said person.

or three your in denial that you are winning some how

I'm not in denial, and I doubt I could ever win this debate. But of course, unless I stop being lazy long enough to think about who would win, you won't convince me. The way I see it (as of about now) you must first debate with yourself on who would win before debating with someone else. I know it sounds kind of cheesy, but I think that's the only way to truly debate well, and I haven't been doing that.

by avoiding obvious things and not even giving a way Kisame wins.

I will state that I am not PURPOSELY trying to avoid any points that you've brought up. I may be subconciously avoiding certain debating points, but in no way am I trying to avoid something I know I can't counter, because I can. Like Kisame VS Susano'o arguement. (Chapter 392 Pages 10-15/Chapter 472 Pages 2-5/9-11) I will admit, it's quite possible that the Susano'o is faster than Kisame. However, Kisame is fast, and depending on the distance between Kisame and Itachi when Susano'o is activated, then Kisame could swim outside of it's range before it traps him. Itachi barely moved when using Susano'o, and even when he did he wasn't using the sword. He couldn't catch up to Kisame if Kisame was able to move out of his range, and I believe he probably can.

Once again Kisame is my 2nd favorite character, but there is no way he wins this with his current feats.
2nd favorite? It's believable that Kisame is your second favorite, I would even believe you if you said Kisame was your fav. Favorites don't matter much in debates, since I nor most half-decent debaters I know have ever debated based on favorites. That includes you. I acknowledge you as a good debater and respect you for your skills.

Edit: Debate postponed so I can look up feats, take care of other active forums matters, etc.

[Hatake Tsuchi]

itachi would win due to the fact that he would put kisame in a genjutsu or in his alternate dimention using his advanced sharingan. Kisame has more power and would win in a hand to hand fight. BUT itachi can attack from far away.

[321zigzag1]

Why in the world did you necro few months old thread?

[e710]

itachi would win due to the fact that he would put kisame in a genjutsu or in his alternate dimention using his advanced sharingan. Kisame has more power and would win in a hand to hand fight. BUT itachi can attack from far away.

you might not wanna go "grave digging" anymore because thats how people get pissed at you
btw that mean dont post on a old thread especially one like 4 months old

[deidara330]

itachi would win due to the fact that he would put kisame in a genjutsu or in his alternate dimention using his advanced sharingan. Kisame has more power and would win in a hand to hand fight. BUT itachi can attack from far away.Do you know of the arguement in Kisame's defense that says that he can escape Genjutsu? The only requirement for stopping Genjutsu is disrupting the flow of chakra. Samehada can take chakra from Kisame, and can give Kisame chakra. If he does this constantly throughout the battle, then in theory Kisame's flow of chakra would be disrupted and Genjutsu would be made useless. Even Tsukuyomi. Kisame can also attack from far away, since Kisame's water dome was not only fast enough to catch Killerbee, but large enough to span the length of what appeared to be a small Mountain in the background. Itachi is only about equal to Killerbee in speed, with possibly a speed advantage. Itachi, with his known speed, couldn't outrun the water dome.

[Hatake Tsuchi]

you might not wanna go "grave digging" anymore because thats how people get pissed at you
btw that mean dont post on a old thread especially one like 4 months old

This thread made like 5 pages i felt like I needed to give my personal opinion i don't think because a thread is old it should be hated or not post on .

[e710]

Do you know of the arguement in Kisame's defense that says that he can escape Genjutsu? The only requirement for stopping Genjutsu is disrupting the flow of chakra. Samehada can take chakra from Kisame, and can give Kisame chakra. If he does this constantly throughout the battle, then in theory Kisame's flow of chakra would be disrupted and Genjutsu would be made useless. Even Tsukuyomi. Kisame can also attack from far away, since Kisame's water dome was not only fast enough to catch Killerbee, but large enough to span the length of what appeared to be a small Mountain in the background. Itachi is only about equal to Killerbee in speed, with possibly a speed advantage. Itachi, with his known speed, couldn't outrun the water dome.

what would kisame do about susono and i believe one ammeturso could kill kisame

yea thx to who down repped me keep it coming plz

[321zigzag1]

This thread made like 5 pages i felt like I needed to give my personal opinion i don't think because a thread is old it should be hated or not post on .

It was already done. Finished. Its old, people sometimes forget about it.

Its painful to see an old thread reopened that people thought it was done for good.

So unless there is an absolutely good reason there is no reason to necro.
After all you are the same person who made this same topic.

Why search for an old then when you had made one?

Its seems pretty redundant.

[Hatake Tsuchi]

It was already done. Finished. Its old, people sometimes forget about it.

Its painful to see an old thread reopened that people thought it was done for good.

So unless there is an absolutely good reason there is no reason to necro.
After all you are the same person who made this same topic.

Why search for an old then when you had made one?

Its seems pretty redundant.

I agree i made a honest mistake , but i am new so really i did not know much about such facts .

[321zigzag1]

I agree i made a honest mistake , but i am new so really i did not know much about such facts .

You had good intentions.

However there have been times when few necroed threads from june and july. Very annoying to see.

[deidara330]

what would kisame do about susono and i believe one ammeturso could kill kisame

yea thx to who down repped me keep it coming plzSusano'o and Amaterasu are made of chakra, correct? Samehada absorbs chakra. Therefore, Samehada can absorb the Amaterasu and Susano'o, since they're made of chakra. This is just another theory, though. Much of the arguement for Kisame is theories, really. But Samehada absorbed Killerbee's Raiton jutsu, so the same principle should apply to the Amaterasu and Susano'o.It was already done. Finished. Its old, people sometimes forget about it.

Its painful to see an old thread reopened that people thought it was done for good.

So unless there is an absolutely good reason there is no reason to necro.
After all you are the same person who made this same topic.

Why search for an old then when you had made one?

Its seems pretty redundant.I, personally, have nothing against thread gravedigging. If you see a match that you want to give your opinion on, and it's an old match, there's no reason to make a new thread when one already exists, and there's no reason not to post. However, if you actually already made the thread and you're posting in the same battle, different thread, then there's no point.

[Hatake Tsuchi]

You had good intentions.

However there have been times when few necroed threads from june and july. Very annoying to see.

Thanks for been nice , can you add me to your friend list

and let's not post here anymore as you said this thread has already been Finish .

[321zigzag1]

I, personally, have nothing against thread gravedigging. If you see a match that you want to give your opinion on, and it's an old match, there's no reason to make a new thread when one already exists, and there's no reason not to post. However, if you actually already made the thread and you're posting in the same battle, different thread, then there's no point.

Along with the reasons I said in my previous posts it makes you wonder especially to those who aren't that new why wait till then to post?

Just make a new topic for a refresh start is a better idea and maybe use the older thread as reference point in the OP.

Thanks for been nice , can you add me to your friend list
and let's not post here anymore as you said this thread has already been Finish .

If you so want to send me and I will accept.

[e710]

i am just gonna this
who won this thread if it is finished

[deidara330]

Along with the reasons I said in my previous posts it makes you wonder especially to those who aren't that new why wait till then to post?

Just make a new topic for a refresh start is a better idea and maybe use the older thread as reference point in the OP.Well, I just don't see the point of making a new thread. I don't quite understand your arguement. If, say, a character in the match got a new move, a new thread would be understandable. But if a thread already exists, it would just take up more space in the already crowded BG to make a new thread. This also creates the problem of people copy/pasting posts from the old thread onto the new one to increase post count.

[321zigzag1]

Well, I just don't see the point of making a new thread. I don't quite understand your arguement. If, say, a character in the match got a new move, a new thread would be understandable. But if a thread already exists, it would just take up more space in the already crowded BG to make a new thread. This also creates the problem of people copy/pasting posts from the old thread onto the new one to increase post count.

Like I said its very annoying to see an old thread that was finishes like few months and then after suddenly post. I am not the only one who finds it annoying. You like seeing july to september old threads popping up too?

Why would they do that? They just post. Why waste the time to copy and paste. No one does that. I don't get what you mean there.

[deidara330]

Like I said its very annoying to see an old thread that was finishes like few months and then after suddenly post. I am not the only one who finds it annoying. You like seeing july to september old threads popping up too?

Why would they do that? They just post. Why waste the time to copy and paste. No one does that. I don't get what you mean there.Like it? In a way, yes. It would offer up a new debate with a newer member who posted in the thread. You could debate the same battle with a different person and it could go completely differently from your last debate. And I like a good debate.

Well, I was mainly trying to come up with another arguement for my side. It's possible someone could do that. Unlikely, but possible.

[321zigzag1]

Like it? In a way, yes. It would offer up a new debate with a newer member who posted in the thread. You could debate the same battle with a different person and it could go completely differently from your last debate. And I like a good debate.

Well, I was mainly trying to come up with another arguement for my side. It's possible someone could do that. Unlikely, but possible.

New debate means better for new threads. A newer member would do better in a refreshed new thread.

Which in the end is a nonfactor.

If someone did that in the OBD or somewhere especially in the OBD or NF in general. You will get negged even alot.. I am glad it isn't as harsh here.

[InuyashaGirl]

itahci wins with tsukyomi since its ubreakable unless u havea sharingan so yeah

[deidara330]

New debate means better for new threads. A newer member would do better in a refreshed new thread.

Which in the end is a nonfactor.

If someone did that in the OBD or somewhere especially in the OBD or NF in general. You will get negged even alot.. I am glad it isn't as harsh here.I've never been neg repped for it. And I've done it dozens of times. But I see your point. I just don't mind it as much as you do.
itahci wins with tsukyomi since its ubreakable unless u havea sharingan so yeahHmmm. Please read my earlier post explaining how Kisame can theoretically escape genjutsu. Including Tsukuyomi.

[Kuromaki]

IMO Itachi wins with MS hax.

Kisame does have a shot at winning this, however.
itahci wins with tsukyomi since its ubreakable unless u havea sharingan so yeah
Proof?