2nd & 4th mizukage vs madara

[Hotarubi Hyuuga]

OK they get all feats 4th Mizukage gets Sanabi and they are fighting at the valley of the end.

Madara has no Kurama or anything given to him by FHC.

They start on opposite sides of the lake.

Who wins?

[321zigzag3]

OK they get all feats 4th Mizukage gets Sanabi and they are fighting at the valley of the end.

Madara has no Kurama or anything given to him by FHC.

They start on opposite sides of the lake.

Who wins?

Who is Sanabi?

FHC means what?

[Hotarubi Hyuuga]

Who is Sanabi?

FHC means what?

Sanabi is the three tails and FHC means First Hokages Cells

[PrinceofPeace]

Isn't the genjutsu of the mist GG? Considering that madara's fire took on an army of suiton users I think Madara could beat tobirama. But how does Madara overcome mist?

[Hotarubi Hyuuga]

Tobirama?

No this is Second Mizukage and 4th Mizukage

You know Jokey Boy and the Three Tailed Jinchuuiki?

However mist Genjutsu and whatever that mirror move the 4th has that allows you to make a perfect copy of equal strength should take care of him.

[PrinceofPeace]

4MK is not needed. 2MK and the mist handles all of this. 2MK can not even control his bijju.

With the HEAVY restiricions on Madara he can not do much with the mist. Even regual (hidden mist jutsu) restrictics the sharigan so the genjutsu would not do much.

I do not know much about the 2MK though but the mist should prevent Madara from seeing.

Idk how Madara would overcome that and Jokey boy as well
----------------------------------------------------------------
Even IF!!! Madara could see though the mist .... then what?

2MK is made out of water so he would still be hard to defeat.
Madara only has fire style and some genjutsu.

[Hotarubi Hyuuga]

Actually the problem was never that he couldn't control his demon, if you read up on all he Jinchuuiki the only one who hadn't mastered their demon was Naruto. they just never explained how it ended up in that lake was all.

Also you're getting them confused, always remember 2mk is the one who died fighting 2tk. the 4mk is the one who can make perfect copies of you with the same strength.

[PrinceofPeace]

Well until Madara can fight through the mist... or surive Jokey boy the battle is easily over

[321zigzag3]

Madara even before Rinnegan fought both Onoki and Muu. The latter lost.

[PrinceofPeace]

so how does that help against genjutsu/mist

[321zigzag3]

That feat puts him above both 2nd and 4th Mizukage combined.

It also does not help you restricted Sanbi and 4th Mizukage still showed not that many feats.

[PrinceofPeace]

of course Madara has better feats! But how does he put those feats to use in the mist?

[Hotarubi Hyuuga]

That feat puts him above both 2nd and 4th Mizukage combined.

It also does not help you restricted Sanbi and 4th Mizukage still showed not that many feats.

When did I restrict Sanabi? I clearly gave him Sanabi and Besides 4th Mizukage and create a perfect clone of the enemy that has equal strength.

[PrinceofPeace]

Exactly!
that is why I think Madara loses.... but then again I do not know much about the Mizauakges

and how does Madara counter the 2MK giant clone thing ma bob

[321zigzag3]

Madara had Perfect Susanoo even back then.

Both Onoki and Muu had flight and Dust Jutsu, the latter had invisibility.

Joki Boy and genjutsu just only stalls against Madara using even regular Susanoo.
Take in mind Madara has sharingan genjutsu as well and wide range Katons.

When did I restrict Sanabi? I clearly gave him Sanabi and Besides 4th Mizukage and create a perfect clone of the enemy that has equal strength.

Don't know I thought that.


You must talking about that Mirror Water technique.

[Uchiha Sora]

When did I restrict Sanabi? I clearly gave him Sanabi and Besides 4th Mizukage and create a perfect clone of the enemy that has equal strength.

*Sanbi

I don't really understand how jokey boy works so I can't really make a judgement here

[PrinceofPeace]

Madara had Perfect Susanoo even back then.

Both Onoki and Muu had flight and Dust Jutsu, the latter had invisibility.

Joki Boy and genjutsu just only stalls against Madara using even regular Susanoo.
Take in mind Madara has sharingan genjutsu as well and wide range Katons.

how does katon and genjutsu help in the mist?

You sure Susanoo can withstand Joey boi

[Hotarubi Hyuuga]

It doesn't matter is Susanoo can withstand Jokey boy or not, the water mirror will make a clone just as strong as Madara with a Susanoo of it's own.

[PrinceofPeace]

Advent of following trees is the only way I see Madara winning but Joeky boi would destroy trees... right?

[321zigzag3]

how does katon and genjutsu help in the mist?

You sure Susanoo can withstand Joey boi

2nd Mizukage's technique has a weakness based on large terrain.

If the range and power is enough regardless of distance shouldn't it hurt him?

Its not like the clam and 2nd mizukage are a kilometer away from their mirages.

Genjutsu is for 4th Mizukage.


Gaara's special sand tanked Joki Boi. Pretty sure MAdara's regular Susanoo can.

It doesn't matter is Susanoo can withstand Jokey boy or not, the water mirror will make a clone just as strong as Madara with a Susanoo of it's own.

In other words you are shooting for the probability of this scenario as a chance for Madara to lose.

If I recall, the technique does not last forever. It only ends after the opponent is repelled, and it appears to be more of a short range jutsu.

[Hotarubi Hyuuga]

2nd Mizukage's technique has a weakness based on large terrain.

If the range and power is enough regardless of distance shouldn't it hurt him?

Its not like the clam and 2nd mizukage are a kilometer away from their mirages.

Genjutsu is for 4th Mizukage.


Gaara's special sand tanked Joki Boi. Pretty sure MAdara's regular Susanoo can.



In other words you are shooting for the probability of this scenario as a chance for Madara to lose.

If I recall, the technique does not last forever. It only ends after the opponent is repelled, and it appears to be more of a short range jutsu.

OK then let's look at this shall we, if Madara tried to tank anything with Susanoo, 4th Mizukage with just use water mirror the block him while 2nd Mizukage uses genjutsu and attacks with Jokey boy.

[PrinceofPeace]

Agreed! Looks like we found our winner

[PrinceofPeace]

2nd Mizukage's technique has a weakness based on large terrain.
whats the weakness?
If the range and power is enough regardless of distance shouldn't it hurt him?
Proof please
Its not like the clam and 2nd mizukage are a kilometer away from their mirages.

Genjutsu is for 4th Mizukage.
which the 2mK can release him from it. and its hard to get caught in genjutsu withing the mist

Gaara's special sand tanked Joki Boi. Pretty sure MAdara's regular Susanoo can.
but for how long. MAdara would not even see it coming.

Madara lost

[321zigzag3]

OK then let's look at this shall we, if Madara tried to tank anything with Susanoo, 4th Mizukage with just use water mirror the block him while 2nd Mizukage uses genjutsu and attacks with Jokey boy.

Right this is just one scenario.
How about this, Madara rushes and places Yagura under Sharingan genjutsu.
See?

Also Water Mirror is for those who is attacking.

Joki Boi is not likely going to break Madara's Susanoo especially if it goes bipedal.
In the end of the day the worst case scenario, Madara uses Perfect Susanoo.



Agreed! Looks like we found our winner

You should not declare victory prematurely.

Madara lost

How do you get the clam? Either you detect it and destroy it or try to destroy it but a really large area of effect attack.

Proof? It makes sense. You aren't going to argue for example the mist genjutsu is going to work against Swamp of the Underworld for example. Regardless of the mist, the Clam would sink because the range is just too big.

This really comes down to the Mist vs Sharingan.
Unfortunately it was never tested.

Madara wins. See I can do it to.


My point is Yagura lacks enough feats. 2nd Mizukage strongest is not the most effective agains Susanoo.

[PrinceofPeace]

How do you get the clam? Either you detect it and destroy it or try to destroy it but a really large area of effect attack.

Proof? It makes sense. You aren't going to argue for example the mist genjutsu is going to work against Swamp of the Underworld for example. Regardless of the mist, the Clam would sink because the range is just too big.
no SotU here so whats your point?

This really comes down to the Mist vs Sharingan.
Unfortunately it was never tested.
it was tested by kakashi and Zabuza. and the mist is genjutsu and thick. The point is that Madara will not have a good vision to get his enemy in genjutsu

Madara wins. See I can do it to.
good job


My point is Yagura lacks enough feats. 2nd Mizukage strongest is not the most effective agains Susanoo.

so how does Madara win? Jokey boy would keep attacking susanoo. Susanoo does hurt the user afterall and it can not surivve forever

[321zigzag3]

Your scenario is understandable.

Joki Boi and Mist keeping MAdara at bay with Sanbi and Water Mirror.

However, again thats why I said the worst scenario comes, Perfect Susanoo.

However, keep in mind Madara defeated both Onoki and Muu without Perfect Susanoo.

so how does Madara win? Jokey boy would keep attacking susanoo. Susanoo does hurt the user afterall and it can not surivve forever

Clam Mist has great range but still the range is not forever. What if one attacks most if not all of the range.
Madara has two wide range katons after all.

Joki Boi is not something that attacks every second. There is a cool down time.

Madara has exceptional chakra even for an Uchiha and he is not Itachi. It won't be much of an issue with much greater skill and pain endurance than Sasuke.

[PrinceofPeace]

Your scenario is understandable.

Joki Boi and Mist keeping MAdara at bay with Sanbi and Water Mirror.

However, again thats why I said the worst scenario comes, Perfect Susanoo.

However, keep in mind Madara defeated both Onoki and Muu without Perfect Susanoo.
when Madara fought those two it wass off-screen. We know no details about it so it is meaningless to bring it up. We do not know the conditions. Also PS is OOC for Madara I use we don't even know if he can sustain it since he was an edo which has interminable chakra at its disposal. So your argument is iffy

Clam Mist has great range but still the range is not forever. What if one attacks most if not all of the range.
Madara has two wide range katons after all.
whih does zero damage thanks to hydrofixation plus the 4mk can counter it with water mirror

Joki Boi is not something that attacks every second. There is a cool down time.
ok but that is still damage Madara is taking not k mention the pain from susanoo plus the 4MK could attack until joki boi is ready again

Madara has exceptional chakra even for an Uchiha and he is not Itachi. It won't be much of an issue with much greater skill and pain endurance than Sasuke.
That is because he was an edo. We do not know much about how he fights without edo form

[BMC1994]

Right this is just one scenario.
How about this, Madara rushes and places Yagura under Sharingan genjutsu.
See?

Also Water Mirror is for those who is attacking.

Joki Boi is not likely going to break Madara's Susanoo especially if it goes bipedal.
In the end of the day the worst case scenario, Madara uses Perfect Susanoo.


I dont think yagura would be caught in genjutsu. If recall it corretly yagura was mentioned of one of the 4 people who can truly control a bijuu(hinting that he fully tamed it etc) by danzo.

[PrinceofPeace]

TBB that is all

[BMC1994]

yup even made a thread about it but unfortunately it got merged with like 3 others.

[PrinceofPeace]

so how does Madara win?

[321zigzag3]

That is because he was an edo. We do not know much about how he fights without edo form

Iffy argument maybe because we didn't see it but it still does not change that it occured. To be fair we don't know how regular Madara beat Onoki and Muu and he didn't show Perfect Susanoo at the time.

Yes yes the guy has oily water body. But wouldn't that actually make him more vulnerable to lets say fire?
As I said before Water Mirror seems to work best when an opponent is attacking usually close range, the mirrored versions don't go on forever either. They disappear after repelling.

Yagura does what? In the case against Perfect Susanoo, the Bijuu form will be overshadows by Madara or vulnerable to his Sharingan genjutsu.
I know he is a perfect host, but Tobi was able to genjutsu him regardless.




Just because he was an Edo doesn't mean his power drastically decreases.
He is still largely the same except he has limited chakra, no Rinnegan, No Mokuton but EMS.

I dont think yagura would be caught in genjutsu. If recall it corretly yagura was mentioned of one of the 4 people who can truly control a bijuu(hinting that he fully tamed it etc) by danzo.

Yes that is true, yet Tobi was able to do it. Now to be fair we don't know how but he still did.

Madara is supposed to be the strongest Uchiha anyway.

[Hotarubi Hyuuga]

You see I understand what you are trying to say, but if Madara tried to rush in as you said water mirror is used for those who attack so defend himself he would use the Water mirror to make clone of Madara to block him with his own attack.

While this is going on 2mk can use his genjutsu and attack with Jokey Boy.

When Madara tries to use perfect Susanoo and attack 4mk uses water mirror to block with a perfect susanoo of his own or while Madara is blinded by the mist 4mk can turn into Sanabi or Sanbi whatever it's called and use TBB.

[PrinceofPeace]

Iffy argument maybe because we didn't see it but it still does not change that it occured.
yeah as an EDO !!! Not in human form. Edo Madara>>>Madara. Edo Madara has ENDLESS CHAKRA. and would recieve NO PAIN from PS or any type of Susanoo
To be fair we don't know how regular Madara beat Onoki and Muu and he didn't show Perfect Susanoo at the time.
agreed

Yes yes the guy has oily water body. But wouldn't that actually make him more vulnerable to lets say fire?
naw. 2MK is just water but not joki boi. Plus Madara would not even know what is happening and 4MK can counter the fire with water mirror
As I said before Water Mirror seems to work best when an opponent is attacking usually close range, the mirrored versions don't go on forever either. They disappear after repelling.
not really proof on that but... no matter. 4MK can go bijju and tank it or TBB it away

Yagura does what? In the case against Perfect Susanoo, the Bijuu form will be overshadows by Madara or vulnerable to his Sharingan genjutsu.
I know he is a perfect host, but Tobi was able to genjutsu him regardless.
NO PS



Just because he was an Edo doesn't mean his power drastically decreases.
true... but he does not have endless chakra and he would recieve pain from Susanoo
He is still largely the same except he has limited chakra, no Rinnegan, No Mokuton but EMS.
that is a lot don't ya think?


Yes that is true, yet Tobi was able to do it. Now to be fair we don't know how but he still did.
we have to go by what we have seen bro

Madara is supposed to be the strongest Uchiha anyway.

ANd your point?

[321zigzag3]

Your best offensive options seems to dwell On TBB.

Never mind that Joki Boi weakenes Mizukage considerably.


You see I understand what you are trying to say, but if Madara tried to rush in as you said water mirror is used for those who attack so defend himself he would use the Water mirror to make clone of Madara to block him with his own attack.

Yes that if Madara chooses to go melee attack.
Recall he has ranged Katons.
He also has the War Fan for defense.

[/QUOTE]While this is going on 2mk can use his genjutsu and attack with Jokey Boy.[/QUOTE]

Susanoo.

Not to mention he has other MS jutsus.

When Madara tries to use perfect Susanoo and attack 4mk uses water mirror to block with a perfect susanoo of his own or while Madara is blinded by the mist 4mk can turn into Sanabi or Sanbi whatever it's called and use TBB.

Water Mirror seems to have a size limit. The one he created is human sized, which can't mirror Perfect Susanoo completely, only a tiny part.

ANd your point?

Like I said, Madara still has EMS and exceptional chakra. He was stated to have such by Tobi himself.

They are both made off oil and water.

What do you mean no proof? They dispelled after Naruto and KB was repelled. Are you denying Manga panel evidence?

Ok, we both have seen Madara beat Onoki and Muu without Perfect Susanoo off panel technically.

That Madara is the strongest Uchiha.

[Hotarubi Hyuuga]

Well on one point, we've haven't seen it copy anything that big, however, what it seems to do is copy the opponent and it's exact strength and then it counters them with he same move.

Remember it copied Golden Beast mode Naruto while he was suing Rasengon to counter him and cancel him out, so if probably could copy Madara while he's using Fire Style to cancel him out as well.

Now though I'm not sure if it can copy the entire Perfect susanoo, let go along with your theory of it only being able to copy a piece. In that Case he could use it to copy perfect susanoo's sword or maybe even just a piece of it to block him when he tries to attack.

[321zigzag3]

Well on one point, we've haven't seen it copy anything that big, however, what it seems to do is copy the opponent and it's exact strength and then it counters them with he same move.

Yes but notice the mirror size, its way to small. Even if it did copy. Either the Perfect Susanoo is human sized or I don't know what else to consider.


Remember it copied Golden Beast mode Naruto while he was suing Rasengon to counter him and cancel him out, so if probably could copy Madara while he's using Fire Style to cancel him out as well.

This is more reasonable but based on the usage of the jutsu it seems more a close range jutsu. The Water Mirror has to see you and send the clone out.

Now though I'm not sure if it can copy the entire Perfect susanoo, let go along with your theory of it only being able to copy a piece. In that Case he could use it to copy perfect susanoo's sword or maybe even just a piece of it to block him when he tries to attack.

Even if this occurs, it will not block it.

A casually unsheathing of the sword swing screwed kilometers of land and cut off two mountain tops.

[PrinceofPeace]

Your best offensive options seems to dwell On TBB.

Never mind that Joki Boi weakenes Mizukage considerably.




Yes that if Madara chooses to go melee attack.
Recall he has ranged Katons.
He also has the War Fan for defense.
how can he attack melle when he can not see? And katon would be countered by mirror
While this is going on 2mk can use his genjutsu and attack with Jokey Boy.[/QUOTE]

Susanoo.

Not to mention he has other MS jutsus.
like what? How will it help


Water Mirror seems to have a size limit. The one he created is human sized, which can't mirror Perfect Susanoo completely, only a tiny part.
agreed... But it's OOC for Madara to use PS and it would be too much on his normal body!


Like I said, Madara still has EMS and exceptional chakra. He was stated to have such by Tobi himself.
ok but not PS
They are both made off oil and water.
no cuz just like sugeitsu 2MK can turn into water
What do you mean no proof? They dispelled after Naruto and KB was repelled. Are you denying Manga panel evidence?
of what?
Ok, we both have seen Madara beat Onoki and Muu without Perfect Susanoo off panel technically.
yeah but that was EDO Madara
That Madara is the strongest Uchiha.
ok... Well 2MK is the strongest hozuki and 4MK is the strongest mizukage. So yeah[/QUOTE]

How can Madara fight what he can not see

[321zigzag3]

While this is going on 2mk can use his genjutsu and attack with Jokey Boy.

And if Madara uses Susanoo it does nothing.

You have provided no counter to this.

like what? How will it help

Granted he has not shown Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu.

agreed... But it's OOC for Madara to use PS and it would be too much on his normal body!

Its not OOC if he finds no other option.

He used against Hashirama, so I don't see the problem.


no cuz just like sugeitsu 2MK can turn into water

Gaara stated that 2nd Mizukage was oil and water.

of what?

Water Mirror Clones dispelled immediately.


yeah but that was EDO Madara

No its was Regular Madara.

ok... Well 2MK is the strongest hozuki and 4MK is the strongest mizukage. So yeah

Strongest is a relative term. Madara's claim has more bearing in Narutoverse than they.

[PrinceofPeace]

What good is Susanoo? Madara would just be hurting himself after a while and Susanoo can not tank a TBB or Joki boy forever!

both of those MS jutsu's are USELESS when Madara can not see the foe

Madara respected and feared the GREAT HASHIRAMA. Madara is overconfident and woud not use it off the bat.
Plus we do not know the effects of it. Madara may not be able to use it cuz he
-does not have enough chakra.
-the toll is too much on his body

chp please. Prove he is oil/water.

yeah it disppels after it counters the threat

chp plz i need proof. But Madara did not use PS on 5 kages so why would he blitz it for 2?

true but its hype

[321zigzag3]

What good is Susanoo? Madara would just be hurting himself after a while and Susanoo can not tank a TBB or Joki boy forever!


You argument is based on that Madara just stands there like an idiot.


Madara respected and feared the GREAT HASHIRAMA. Madara is overconfident and woud not use it off the bat.
Plus we do not know the effects of it. Madara may not be able to use it cuz he
-does not have enough chakra.
-the toll is too much on his body

He may be overconfident but he wasn't stupid.
The reason why he is more arrogant is because he is an Edo Tensei.

Your toll and chakra argument is not going to matter much because MAdara implied he used it against Hashirama.
Manga supports this.



chp please. Prove he is oil/water.

Have you never read when Gaara directly commented on it?

Read Naruto Chapter 556

yeah it disppels after it counters the threat
Thats why the Water Mirror argument is not that effective.

chp plz i need proof. But Madara did not use PS on 5 kages so why would he blitz it for 2?

Read Naruto Chapter 589

It was during when Madara was still alive.
I only said it because at worst case scenario for Madara, if he has no options he will use it.


[/QUOTE]true but its hype [/QUOTE]

Hype that has been proven largely true.

[PrinceofPeace]

no he can use susanoo or Katon or wood style... but there is no point
susanoo(has it up but it is not the pefect shield)

Katon(could fire it in wrong direction and can be countered or destroyed with TBB)

wood style (takes a while to activated and joki boi blasts it away)

I believe you... but we still do not know how well he would use it or the abilities of PS

no I'm saving it for anime

how so?

the mist still blocks his vision and how would he surive TBB?

[321zigzag3]

no he can use susanoo or Katon or wood style... but there is no point
susanoo(has it up but it is not the pefect shield)

He has Susanoo and Katons.


I believe you... but we still do not know how well he would use it or the abilities of PS

Same as Edo Madara using PErfect Susanoo.

the mist still blocks his vision and how would he surive TBB?

You do realize that going bijuu mode makes MAdara really wanting to go bipedal Susanoo, use Sharingan Genjutsu, and even maybe use PErfect Susanoo?

[PrinceofPeace]

which is countered by Joki boy or TBB

we do not know how hard it would be cuz of the chakra drain and cellular pain

but how would Madara see the bijju?

[321zigzag3]

which is countered by Joki boy or TBB

Joki Boy has a cool down time. TBB is your best counter. Perfect Susanoo in hype.

we do not know how hard it would be cuz of the chakra drain and cellular pain

Madara isn't Itachi or Sasuke. He is likely not going to be affected.

Regardless the point is that he used it well against Hashirama to his fullest.

but how would Madara see the bijju?

Ok now this is a good argument.

The only counter I could form on this is that Sharingan Genjutsu can decipher the 2nd Mizukage's Mist.

Or the transformation is noticable enough in height or in build up of chakra.
Bijuu is very tall after all.

[PrinceofPeace]

yes TBB would go after Joki boi is down

we do not know about well. Heck we barley know anything

chakra is chakra to the sharigan it can not tell the difference but the bykugan can. it could be the joki boi instead

[321zigzag3]

Only if Sanbi transforms.

WE do know what it was shown on panel.

Sharingan is the master of breaking and detecting genjutsu.

[PrinceofPeace]

the mist is not like regular genjutsu. it effects the field plus it is chakara so it can not be disregarded

[321zigzag3]

You should elaborate how the mist negates Sharingan.

[PrinceofPeace]

sharigan and rinnegan just see chakra... the mist is covered in chakra so its just a big blob

[321zigzag3]

The mist produces mirages.

Sharingan does well in clarity for perception so it can recognize different genjutsu and chakra.

Recall chakra can be seen by sharingan different colors.

[PrinceofPeace]

not for different people

[321zigzag3]

No its for all Sharingan. Thats what they do.

[PrinceofPeace]

I was talkin bout the chakra

[321zigzag3]

And sharingan can different colors for different chakra, and if you are skilled enough gain extra clarity in deciphering genjutsu.

[PrinceofPeace]

No I'm saying the chakra is the same color . Blue!

[Uchiha Sora]

Different people have different colors of chakra. Sharingan gives color to chakra, if the mist covered the field and was dense enough then Maddy couldn't see anything

But I don't think obscuring vision was the purpose of his mist

[PrinceofPeace]

idk I'm done. I don't really know much about him but all I know is

Joki boy is powerful and can not be surivived easily
TBB is major Ochies

[321zigzag3]

Different people have different colors of chakra. Sharingan gives color to chakra, if the mist covered the field and was dense enough then Maddy couldn't see anything

But I don't think obscuring vision was the purpose of his mist

THe obscuring is Hidden Mist's characteristic.

idk I'm done. I don't really know much about him but all I know is



Not all chakra is blue, thats was anime.