Kisame (NO SAMEHADA) vs Tobirama

[PrinceofPeace]

Location- Desert

Full Prep
No knowledge
No ET

NO SAMEHADA

All Feats for Kisame THAT DO NOT INVOLVE SAMEHADA

Tobirama has Manga feats

Distance 25ft

Bloodlusted

FYI- Kisame can use all feats that do not involve him absorbing chakra from a foe

So bassically I belive in a way this is 30% Kisame vs Tobirama

Who wins

Cn Tobirama win WITH or WITHOUT Edo Tensi?

Complications if Tobirama uses ET
-He can not move
-edo's are not as strong as the orginial
-the more to control the harder
-it takes time to summon them

[Godaime Kazekage]

If you count all hype for Tobirama then he wins. He has full prep so Edo is ready to go and he also has S/T Jutsu. The desert is also an advantage due to the comment about him creating water in places without any water source (although I don't put much value in this, since Mei used a much larger Suiton in a desert-like climate).

Without hype Kisame wins easily-he's got much more panel time and jutsu diversity.

[PrinceofPeace]

I had to edit the OP

Please say if Tobirama will win with OR WITHOUT EDO TENSI

[Dragon Style]

Dragon Style: GG No Jutsu!!!

Bringer of Darkness, Sword of the Thunder God, this match is over.

You can't break out of bringer of darkness and you can't see in it, so all Tobirama has to do is shock him to death while he attempts to find him.

[BMC1994]

You do know that tobirama even in the manga has like 0 zero feats and kisame shippuuden feats easily .... on him.

[Ultimate combatant]

With just a little hype to use, Tobirama is one of the legend tier characters. So, I say that Tobirama would win.

However, only with little feats he's shown in Manga he'd have troubles with Kisame!!! :D

[Mangetsu Hozuki]

The hype on Tobirama says he's the best Water User ever to live, or something like that. So, versus another water user, you can say he wins, even without Edo Tensei. However, we are only using manga feats.... so I guess you can only judge him by his fight with the 3rd Hokage.

@ Dragon Style:

We haven't actually seen Tobirama with the Sword of the Thunder God. It has just been said that he had it, and that it was stolen But I agree. What does a Samehada-less Kisame do against utter darkness except get hit by Tobirama's massive water attacks?

Also, we have only Minato's word to go by when we judge his ability of S/T ninjutsu, so that would be hype as well.

[Dragon Style]

The hype on Tobirama says he's the best Water User ever to live, or something like that. So, versus another water user, you can say he wins, even without Edo Tensei. However, we are only using manga feats.... so I guess you can only judge him by his fight with the 3rd Hokage.

@ Dragon Style:

We haven't actually seen Tobirama with the Sword of the Thunder God. It has just been said that he had it, and that it was stolen But I agree. What does a Samehada-less Kisame do against utter darkness except get hit by Tobirama's massive water attacks?

Also, we have only Minato's word to go by when we judge his ability of S/T ninjutsu, so that would be hype as well.

True, but it was stolen, long after he was dead, by what's his face, Aoi Rokusho

[Nigoyukai]

I see Tobirama winning this even without using Edo Tensei (it's not even going to help him unless you toss some random strong fighters into the mix, though if Tobirama is in Edo Tensei, then Kisame has zero chance of winning) and without anime feats. Going by hype, course.

[PrinceofPeace]

Without ET-TObiram LOSES HARD

Water Dragon/Colding wave/encapment wall- Kisame survived 7TH GATE GUY!!!!!!!!!!!! So do you think a water dragon would do any vital damage? OH PLEASE!! Yes Kisame would get hurt but he has also shown way better staimina by breaking out of Yamato wood style ! Kisame can absorb chakra WITHOUT SAMEHADA btw.. he did it with Aoba right? I could be wrong.
LET US NOT FORGET KISAME HAS EARTH NINJUTSU!!
Kisame can go underground to dodge the water attacks!

Bringer of Darkness- First of all this was in the anime not in the manga.. just sayin! Tobirama is kage level but he is not an expert in genjutsu! On the other hand Aoba is! Kisame in a weakened state was able to cause enough pain to break out of the genjutsu so why could he not break out of the bringer of darkness

Sword of the Thunder god- Not a very strong sword to be broken by genin! The sword is close/mid range combat so Kisame does not have anything to worry about! Kisame just have to keep at bay or go underground or push him back with his sharks/clones/tsunami

Ways for Kisame to win
-Kisame makes 2 water clones. The clones block TObirmama's vision of the real one so Tobirama does not see the real one go under ground. Tobirama will try to destroy the clones that he thinks are the real ones and will not notice that the real one went underground. The clones soon get defeated but Kisame appears behind Tobirama and cuts him with his regular sword or uses sharks to attack

-Kisame would spit out a tusnami to try and catch TObirama in. Tobirama would jump to dodge then stand on the water. Tobirama would then use the water to his advantage and use a water dragon. Kisame would then go under the water swimming at a fast past. He would also use clones so that Tobirama would have to choose which one to hit. Kisame would then get close to Tobirama and then trap him in a water prison. Tobirama would not use his sword cuz he would shock himself. It would be hard for Tobirama to run away when Kisame is a superior swimmer. Also Most water jutsu would not do much damage on Kisame... especially when he can breath under water.

-30% Kisame has been shown to make about 5 sharks. Since this is 100% Kisame how whould Tobirama counter about 20 sharks coming in diffferent directions that can fly in the air? Water dragon would not be able to take all of them out in time especially when Kisame could use the time to hid. Water encapment wall does not protect Tobirama from above nor below. SO Tobirama would evntaully get hit

-What about Water Style: Rain Water Shark Wave??
Even if the sharks were destroyed their would be an attack within a attack! How would Tobirama suspect that?

-

Tobirama with ET
-I do not see him using this in time while Kisame attacks. Plus it would be hard to control and the jutsu would leave him wide open

Overall
-Tobirama just has water ninjutsu which can be easily dodged by going underground. Kisame has more feats and better ninjutsu than Tobirama. Tobirama's water ninjutsu will hurt kisame but will not kill Kisame! I do not see Tobirama winning this.

[Dragon Style]

Dragon Style: Hold Up No Jutsu!!

Um I didn't exactly read everything else, but it clearly says that bringer of darkness cannot be broken out of so how would Kisame be able to break out of it.

Next we've only seen the sword of the thunder god used by Aoi and as seen before like with Suigetsu and Zabuza, Aoi may not have been able to use it as well as Tobirama.

Tobirama would still be able to see while bringer of darkness is in effect and dodge all of Kisame's attacks who would then waste all of his chakra trying to hit something he can't see.

[BMC1994]

Tobirama only has his manga feats here meaning that he doesnt get bringer of darkness here seeing as hashirama was the one who used it in the manga and not tobirama.

With bloodlust it would go :

great shark missle GG.

[JLI2infinity]

Pretty much what everyone's said so far. If he lives up to his hype as the best suiton user in history and the extremely powerful younger brother entrusted by the strongest shinobi to ever live to lead the village then he should have this. But if he performs like he did with the limited details we've heard about him (i.e. getting beaten to within an inch of his life by Kinkaku and Ginkaku and then not being able to hold of 20 Kinkaku squad shinobi and survive) he should flat out lose.

As Prince and BMC detailed above Kisame's feats casually sh*t on Tobirama's, which is why I hold him to be the strongest suiton user in history until proven otherwise. My whole view about databook statements is that we should accept them as long as they don't conflict with canonical material. For example, Haku being FTL was obviously an exaggeration and I'm beginning to believe Tobirama's title as best suiton user ever was just Kishi using folklore for the same purpose, so people wouldn't just assume that Tobirama was a slouch and so fans would actually respect his skill.

[Ultimate combatant]

Pretty much what everyone's said so far. If he lives up to his hype as the best suiton user in history and the extremely powerful younger brother entrusted by the strongest shinobi to ever live to lead the village then he should have this. But if he performs like he did with the limited details we've heard about him (i.e. getting beaten to within an inch of his life by Kinkaku and Ginkaku and then not being able to hold of 20 Kinkaku squad shinobi and survive) he should flat out lose.

As Prince and BMC detailed above Kisame's feats casually sh*t on Tobirama's, which is why I hold him to be the strongest suiton user in history until proven otherwise. My whole view about databook statements is that we should accept them as long as they don't conflict with canonical material. For example, Haku being FTL was obviously an exaggeration and I'm beginning to believe Tobirama's title as best suiton user ever was just Kishi using folklore for the same purpose, so people wouldn't just assume that Tobirama was a slouch and so fans would actually respect his skill.

Tobirama could create a water Dragon with a single Hand Seal while other Water users such as Kisame need to perform 44 Hand Seals.

Also, obviously Orochimaru's Edo Tensei was way too flawed. It made even Hashirama and Tobirama look barely Kage level. Plus their personality was absent. It was just their body under Orochimaru's control. It was neither Hashirama nor Tobirama. Just Orochimaru's puppets with access to some of their abilities (weakened) and Orochimaru's lack of creativity.

It does no justice to Hashirama and Tobirama to judge their skills just from the fight with Hiruzen.

And even then, Hiruzen was supposedly the strongest Kage during his time (which implies stronger than Ay, Onoki, Fourth Kazekage and Mei)!!! :D

[BMC1994]

Tobirama could create a water Dragon with a single Hand Seal while other Water users such as Kisame need to perform 44 Hand Seals.

Also, obviously Orochimaru's Edo Tensei was way too flawed. It made even Hashirama and Tobirama look barely Kage level. Plus their personality was absent. It was just their body under Orochimaru's control. It was neither Hashirama nor Tobirama. Just Orochimaru's puppets with access to some of their abilities (weakened) and Orochimaru's lack of creativity.

It does no justice to Hashirama and Tobirama to judge their skills just from the fight with Hiruzen.

And even then, Hiruzen was supposedly the strongest Kage during his time (which implies stronger than Ay, Onoki, Fourth Kazekage and Mei)!!! :D

I dont really get why everybody thinks that oros edo tensei would be that much weaker/flawed when nothing really indicates it. Kabuto himself even said that orochimaru perfected Edo Tensei.

The only real seen improvement of kabutos edo tensei would be the number of people he can control and bind.

On top of that oro wasnt out to kill him but just hurt/torture him.

Hashi/Tobirama simply look weak because of powerscaling.
I mean the most powerful character we had seen up until that fight is gated lee.
I doubt kishi had future powers in mind like atomic dismantling/NukingMeteors/Reality bending/TBB/Brainwashing without target being aware and many others otherwise i am sure he would have made them look more powerfull.

Other then that i agree with you.

[PrinceofPeace]

@Jin
-EVEN IF Tobirama lives up to his hype of being the strongest suiton user Tobirama would still lose. Kisame would feed on his strong suiton ninjutsu. Also since Kisame is practically a fish and Kisame has great defense/stamina the wate ninjutsu would not do that much damage.

@Dragon

-Where does it say that you can not bring out bringer of Darkness? One of the ways to break out of Genjutsu is by causing yourself pain. So if Kisame bit off his thounge like that last ttime he was under genjutsu then there would not be an issue.

-Sword of the Thunder god is not that special. I doubt Tobirama would be able to get that close without facing the consequences of Kisame. It is just electiricty and the area will be in water so shocking the field would be too dangerous.

@Combat
-So what if he can use water dragon with one hand seal. That does not make him stong but good at hand seals. He used water dragon a lot so he got better at using it. We can not really trust hype but he did lose to kumo ninja

[Dragon Style]

@Prince

Bringer-of-Darkness Technique

This technique exerts an hallucinatory effect upon the eyesight, effectively blinding the opponent. No matter how skilled an opponent may be, they are forced to wait helpless in this world of darkness, as this technique allows the user to attack unseen. Although it negates sight, it does not stop the other senses.

It clearly states that no matter how strong the opponent is that they would be forced to sit in darkness, if it could be broken out of then Hiruzen would have done so.

[PrinceofPeace]

Genjutsu will do nothing!

Kisame could not seen when he went underground so it shows that he can still sense others without sight

Also the genjutsu is not instant so he can attack before the jutsu is completed

Additionaly I doubt Tobirama would start the battle with a genjutsu

ALso Kisame is from the mist so he does not need sight

-He is used to the mist and seeing throug it
plus
-he saw through Fugaki and knew he was a traditor

[Dragon Style]

Genjutsu will do nothing!

Kisame could not seen when he went underground so it shows that he can still sense others without sight

Also the genjutsu is not instant so he can attack before the jutsu is completed

Additionaly I doubt Tobirama would start the battle with a genjutsu

But you don't know that for sure do you

ALso Kisame is from the mist so he does not need sight

-He is used to the mist and seeing throug it
plus
-he saw through Fugaki and knew he was a traditor

Actually when Bringer of darkness was used it came up instantly, mist is not the same as total darkness and it is not a Genjutsu, you can't compare a jutau induced mist to a darkness, created by something that messes with your mind.

More proof of instant Genjutsu's that can't be broken out of are Tsukuyomi

[PrinceofPeace]

Actually when Bringer of darkness was used it came up instantly,
Not it did not! GO watch the anime again. The Darkenss was not activated in an instant! It took a few seconds for the shadows to complete surrond Hiruzen.
mist is not the same as total darkness and it is not a Genjutsu, you can't compare a jutau induced mist to a darkness, created by something that messes with your mind.
True but it does make it possible that Kisame can still see a lil bit. ESPECIALLLY when Kisame attacked team guy while underground and he could not see them

More proof of instant Genjutsu's that can't be broken out of are Tsukuyomi
I thought Saskue broke out of it. It is possible to break out of it if A bijju and Jinjuriki constantly flow chakra throughtout themseleves


Genjutsu is not winning this battle

[Dragon Style]

Genjutsu is not winning this battle

Dragon Style: Not Really No Jutsu

Well, no actually it says that nothing can break you out, not even someone is funneling their chakra into you. The only way to be freed is if the user runs out of chakra or releases you themselves.

Kisame wouldn't be able to see through it at all, you see you're still thinking of this as a regular Darkness, but it's not, it's total darkness forced upon your mind by a genjutsu that can't be broken out of it suddenly coming totally blind with no chance of ever seeing.

Well it might have been a few second but it was still to short of time for anyone to actually be able to to do anything before it came up and of course Genjutsu won't win it, but having your opponent not be able to see you, never hurts.

It would be won with water style and sword of the thunder god. I mean how can Kisame dodge what he can't see?

[PrinceofPeace]

Dragon Style: Not Really No Jutsu

Well, no actually it says that nothing can break you out, not even someone is funneling their chakra into you. The only way to be freed is if the user runs out of chakra or releases you themselves.
So Kisame can stilll fight while blind

Kisame wouldn't be able to see through it at all, you see you're still thinking of this as a regular Darkness, but it's not, it's total darkness forced upon your mind by a genjutsu that can't be broken out of it suddenly coming totally blind with no chance of ever seeing.
Kisame could not use his eyes while he was undergournd yet got onto Guy's team


Well it might have been a few second but it was still to short of time for anyone to actually be able to to do anything before it came up and of course Genjutsu won't win it, but having your opponent not be able to see you, never hurts.
Kisame could
1-travel underground away from shadows
2-lanuch tens of sharks towards his direction
3-launch a huge wave
4-activate water clones to cover the area

It would be won with water style and sword of the thunder god. I mean how can Kisame dodge what he can't see?
Kisame can stil hear! Kisame withstood much more than a water/lighting combo!



What is the plan of how Kisame loses? I do not want counters but a plan

[JLI2infinity]

Tobirama could create a water Dragon with a single Hand Seal while other Water users such as Kisame need to perform 44 Hand Seals.

Also, obviously Orochimaru's Edo Tensei was way too flawed. It made even Hashirama and Tobirama look barely Kage level. Plus their personality was absent. It was just their body under Orochimaru's control. It was neither Hashirama nor Tobirama. Just Orochimaru's puppets with access to some of their abilities (weakened) and Orochimaru's lack of creativity.

It does no justice to Hashirama and Tobirama to judge their skills just from the fight with Hiruzen.

And even then, Hiruzen was supposedly the strongest Kage during his time (which implies stronger than Ay, Onoki, Fourth Kazekage and Mei)!!! :D

Mei can also create a water dragon with one hand seal and in case you forgot Kisame made Giant Shark Missile with one hand seal which is FAR more impressive than water dragon, he doesn't even use that he uses shark missiles so I don't even know what you're talking about.

I agree that Oro's Edo severely limited their performances but all those things I mentioned occurred while Tobirama was alive and well my friend.

And no, strongest kage of his time implies stronger than Onoki, Yagura, the Third Kazukage, and the Third Raikage (the third generation). I've already stated that I might find it believable that prime Hiruzen could beat prime Onoki, but I sure as hell don't believe that prime Hiruzen was as strong as the Third Raikage. I admitted that I can believe he's more skilled as a shinobi (mastering all three major forms of shinobi combat, being called the professor, etc.) but in terms of raw power the Third Raikage is unbelievable.

[Dragon Style]

What is the plan of how Kisame loses? I do not want counters but a plan

How is Kisame going to get away from Shadows in his mind? See you're still thinking of this as a jutsu and not a Genjutsu.

[PrinceofPeace]

Kisame goes underground. He would still be under the genjutsu but when he went underground to attack Team Guy. Kisame did not use his eyes while he was underground.

Also Kisame could use his sharks before Tobirama tried to attack

[tanduhman]

I guess my only question for this thread is why does Kisame not have samehada, or the ability to take chakra? Thats like saying that lee cant use any of his gates. Kisame is an amazing character, but for goodness sakes let him have his real power.

Without samehada, or without the ability to even use chakra stealing abilities he is really trumped down a lot.

[Devroux]

Kisame goes underground. He would still be under the genjutsu but when he went underground to attack Team Guy. Kisame did not use his eyes while he was underground.

Also Kisame could use his sharks before Tobirama tried to attack
A genutsu hinders all senses, not just sight. Going underground wouldn't mean he's out of the jutsu.

[PrinceofPeace]

A genutsu hinders all senses, not just sight. Going underground wouldn't mean he's out of the jutsu.

yes but NOT ALL genjutsu's effect all of the sneses

Bringer of darkness only effects sight

@Taunderman

-Kisame would STOMP Tobirama with Samehada. So Kisame without Samehada would make the battle more interesting

[tanduhman]

^That I agree with, but still XD

[BMC1994]

So the fact that tobirama cant use bringerofdarkness since this is manga feats is just ignored.

ok. *fades in the shadows*

[PrinceofPeace]

this is all feats so.......

*fades into shadows*

[Ultimate combatant]

this is all feats so.......

*fades into shadows*

You wrote Tobirama has Manga feats. You didn't say they both have all feats!!! :D

[PrinceofPeace]

the poll has all feats

it has already been stated that Bringer of Darkness was in the anime but it can be used

Looks like people think TObirama can only win with genjtus
BUT
Genjutsu would not do much when Kisame goes underground

[Godaime Kazekage]

Dragon Style-your point is completely invalid. Nowhere in the manga does it say that Bringer of Darkness cannot be broken out of-an unbreakable genjutsu doesn't exist. You brought up Tsukuyomi, which I think most people will agree is a genjutsu on a much higher level than this technique, and it was actually broken out of by Sasuke.

@PoP: You're on the right track, but still not correct. Kisame still wouldn't be able to see in the genjutsu, but that doesn't matter as he was part of the 7 Ninja Swordsmen and they were trained to fight not relying on eyesight, but using their other senses to fight in the mist. Fighting blind would still be a handicap, but he could probably keep it up long enough until he breaks out of the genjutsu-maybe create a water clone who would disturb his chakra.

[PrinceofPeace]

[QUOTE=Godaime Kazekage;6298530]Dragon Style-your point is completely invalid. Nowhere in the manga does it say that Bringer of Darkness cannot be broken out of-an unbreakable genjutsu doesn't exist. You brought up Tsukuyomi, which I think most people will agree is a genjutsu on a much higher level than this technique, and it was actually broken out of by Sasuke.
QUOTE]

Thank you Kazekage!`@x)

[Dragon Style]

@Prince

Bringer-of-Darkness Technique

This technique exerts an hallucinatory effect upon the eyesight, effectively blinding the opponent. No matter how skilled an opponent may be, they are forced to wait helpless in this world of darkness, as this technique allows the user to attack unseen. Although it negates sight, it does not stop the other senses.

It clearly states that no matter how strong the opponent is that they would be forced to sit in darkness, if it could be broken out of then Hiruzen would have done so.

Dragon Style: Repeating Myself No Justu!

@Prince and Kazakage

Um thank you so very much for not paying attention to my post. I know what I'm talking about, this is the description for the Jutsu is clearly states that they will be forces to sit in darkness, no matter how strong they are. If it could be broken out of them Hiruzen would have done so.

[PrinceofPeace]

Dragon Style: Repeating Myself No Justu!

@Prince and Kazakage

Um thank you so very much for not paying attention to my post. I know what I'm talking about( you mean you know how to copy and paste from Narutopedia..;) need I remind you that that source is not the most trusted???), this is the description for the Jutsu is clearly states that they will be forces to sit in darkness, no matter how strong they are. If it could be broken out of them Hiruzen would have done so.

So how does genjutsu effect Kisame when it has been shown that he does not always fight with sight

I WILL SAY IT AGAIN!!!

Kisame went underground and tracked down Team Guy without using his vision!!

Is genjutsu the ONLY way you see Kisame winning? Cuz you have yet to prove how going underground is wrong!

Kisame was a master at the SILENT KILLING techinque! He lives in the Hidden Mist for Crying out loud.... what does this mean you ask?

KISAME DOES NOT NEED SIGHT! HE CAN FIGHT BASED ON SOUND!!

[Dragon Style]

So how does genjutsu effect Kisame when it has been shown that he does not always fight with sight

I WILL SAY IT AGAIN!!!

Kisame went underground and tracked down Team Guy without using his vision!!

Is genjutsu the ONLY way you see Kisame winning? Cuz you have yet to prove how going underground is wrong!

Kisame was a master at the SILENT KILLING techinque! He lives in the Hidden Mist for Crying out loud.... what does this mean you ask?

KISAME DOES NOT NEED SIGHT! HE CAN FIGHT BASED ON SOUND!!

Wrong and Wrong again

First off it means I know how to read and comprehend and secondly you already know that get all of my stuff from Leafninja, a sight that can not be edited by non-officials unlike Narutopedia where anyone who visits the site can edit the pages.

However, going underground would not help Kisame because unlike Kisame Tobirama could still see and attack him. So hiding from him would be impossible.

You can see images through mist unlike the darkness am I saying that Kisame needs site to fight, no, but don't try to sit there and tell me what a jutsu can or cannot do when I've got the official description staring you dead in the face telling you what it can do.

Dragon Style: Thank You Very Much No Jutsu!

[Bazk]

Since when can kisame go underground??
Kisame goes underground stays there if he doesnt dig with his hands, tobirama just flood his little hole GG

[PrinceofPeace]

Wrong and Wrong again
`~(hurtful.... jk `:shock:

First off it means I know how to read and comprehend and secondly you already know that get all of my stuff from Leafninja, a sight that can not be edited by non-officials unlike Narutopedia where anyone who visits the site can edit the pages.

yeah i remeber !:D

However, going underground would not help Kisame because unlike Kisame Tobirama could still see and attack him. So hiding from him would be impossible.

Kisame can also track him underground..... so what is your point? Kisame is not hiding underground. Kisame went underground towards Team Guy with great Accuracy and power. He was not using his signt to find them! SO if he can find them underground without seeing them than he can fight them on land without seeing them

You can see images through mist unlike the darkness am I saying that Kisame needs site to fight, no, but don't try to sit there and tell me what a jutsu can or cannot do when I've got the official description staring you dead in the face telling you what it can do.

SILENT KILLING/MIST TECHINIQUE DOES NOT REQUIRE SIGHT!!!!
Kisame hears where his opponent is and than attacks.

Dragon Style: Thank You Very Much No Jutsu!

@ Bazk

-Kisame went underground against Team Guy in chp. 255!
There was no hole when he went underground...... DID YOU FORGET KISAME IS A FISH... lol `;)
Kisame can easily breath underwater

[Devils Lawyer]

Tobirama drowns

[PrinceofPeace]

lol pretty ironic but I agree. Tobirama has 0-no feats