Korra vs Roy Mustang

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

BG defaults apply

fight takes place in a depopulate Lake Havasu city Arizona..

hows this go?

[Cult of Personality]

Roy snaps his fingers. GG.

[BMC1994]

^lol that would be one option.

Besides the fact that korra bends any fire right back at him and clobbers him with air,water and the very earth he is standing on to begin with.

Korra only has to get roy wet doesnt seem like a challenge for a native waterbender whio happens to be the avatar

[Ohako]

Roy I believe got this. Yes Korra can bend fire, but Roy can instantly light her whole body on fire instantly just by snapping his fingers. Though he has showed such feats to protect his teammates and for revenge, but still I can see Roy winning this fight.

[Bradley]

Korra can deflect Roy's attacks with firebending, get Roy wet with waterbending so he can't make ignition sparks, and generally just pummel Mustang with earthbending. Korra's airbending skills are pretty basic but it could throw off Mustang's ability if she started using it. Mustang could pull a win if Korra tried attacking with firebending -- the firebending would actually be as good as a spark for his attacks, blowing it up in her face. Roy could pull a win, but Korra has the general advantage. Korra wins 7/10 times.

And if Korra uses the Avatar State, she just plain stomps Roy.

[Cult of Personality]

Roy can beat a guy that can see the future and solo tanks with a sword.

More importantly, his explosions are fast enough so as to be near instantaneous. Prove to me that Korra is capable of reacting to them in time to use firebending.

Water gets turned into hydrogen and oxygen. Master alchemist, yo.

Any rocks Korra throws at him get exploded and/or dodged.

Even in Avatar State she doesn't have a guaranteed chance of winning.

Korra loses 9/10. To suggest otherwise is the height of retardedry.

[321zigzag3]

BG defaults apply

fight takes place in a depopulate Lake Havasu city Arizona..

hows this go?

Do you hate Korra IWD? Especially that she doesn't start in Avatar state.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/WillSmith.jpg

[Bradley]

Roy can beat a guy that can see the future and solo tanks with a sword.

Well, that depends. Is this 2003 anime Roy, or manga/Brotherhood Roy? If the first, yes Roy can stand up to Bradley, but that Bradley never demonstrated precog or tank-soloing. If the latter, then Bradley demonstrated those things, but Mustang never faced him.

2003 anime Roy also comes with the explicit weakness to air currents, which Korra can exploit.

More importantly, his explosions are fast enough so as to be near instantaneous. Prove to me that Korra is capable of reacting to them in time to use firebending.

Actually, you just made a claim. Prove that Mustang can create explosions too fast for Korra to react to (not that the explosions themselves are instananeous, but that the process of the spark going from his fingers to the explosion site).

Water gets turned into hydrogen and oxygen. Master alchemist, yo.

He's not able to do that to a large body of water in the thick of combat. Lust would never have soaked him if that was the case. And even if he does Korra can just keep trying to dunk him.

Any rocks Korra throws at him get exploded and/or dodged.

Based on?

Even in Avatar State she doesn't have a guaranteed chance of winning.

If Korra surrounds herself in the Avatar State air sphere there's really nothing Roy can do to her.

Korra loses 9/10. To suggest otherwise is the height of retardedry.

Aren't you a lovely person. ;)

[Ohako]

He's not able to do that to a large body of water in the thick of combat. Lust would never have soaked him if that was the case. And even if he does Korra can just keep trying to dunk him.


A large body of water in Arizona??? I don't think that's possible.

[Cult of Personality]

A large body of water in Arizona??? I don't think that's possible.

Lake Havasu City isn't called Lake Havasu City for no reason.

Well, that depends. Is this 2003 anime Roy, or manga/Brotherhood Roy? If the first, yes Roy can stand up to Bradley, but that Bradley never demonstrated precog or tank-soloing. If the latter, then Bradley demonstrated those things, but Mustang never faced him.

Tank soloing no, precog yes. In the end it doesn't really matter. Fact is Roy is a match for him and he can tittystomp most of Avatar.


2003 anime Roy also comes with the explicit weakness to air currents, which Korra can exploit.But which Korra doesn't know she can exploit and isn't likely to in any case.

Actually, you just made a claim. Yeah, no. Observe:

Korra can deflect Roy's attacks with firebending,
Circa 2:30, an hour ago.

You say Korra can bend Roy's fire, you prove it. Until that happens, Roy snaps his fingers and this battle ends before it begins.

He's not able to do that to a large body of water in the thick of combat. Large schmarge. Korra's not going to bring the entire lake down on him.

And even if he does Korra can just keep trying to dunk him.
And he'll keep splitting it.

Based on?
The fact that he's not stupid enough to let himself get hit.

If Korra surrounds herself in the Avatar State air sphere there's really nothing Roy can do to her.
If Korra dies before she ever gets to that point then Roy doesn't have to worry about an air sphere.

Aren't you a lovely person. ;)You should see me when I'm not being nice.

[Bradley]

Tank soloing no, precog yes. In the end it doesn't really matter. Fact is Roy is a match for him and he can tittystomp most of Avatar.

What episode is it said in the '03 anime that Bradley has precog? I can look it up on Netflix. There's no evidence that manga/Brotherhood Roy is a match for Bradley. In fact, judging by Roy's performance against the Wrath rejects, Bradley would have quite an advantage over him. And it really doesn't count as a full confrontation, but Mustang goes down pretty quick once Pride and Wrath show up and send him into the Gate.

Mustang would be a challenge for most people in Avatar, but he's not a league above them.

But which Korra doesn't know she can exploit and isn't likely to in any case.

Sure, it's just a factor in her favor.

You say Korra can bend Roy's fire, you prove it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=No98tQWkPSQ

There, bending fire created by others.

Large schmarge. Korra's not going to bring the entire lake down on him.

I didn't say she would (or needed to).

And he'll keep splitting it.

What's the largest amount of water Roy has split before at once?

The fact that he's not stupid enough to let himself get hit.

Intelligence has little to do with the ability to avoid projectiles.

If Korra dies before she ever gets to that point then Roy doesn't have to worry about an air sphere.

Quite right. Good thing she can buy time with a quick earth wall.

You should see me when I'm not being nice.

You can be nice?

[Cult of Personality]

What episode is it said in the '03 anime that Bradley has precog?

Whichever episode he revealed his Ultimate Eye I imagine. Been years since I seen it. Splitting hairs in any event.

Mustang would be a challenge for most people in Avatar, but he's not a league above them.
A: Yes, yes he is.
B: I was actually talking about Bradley.

Sure, it's just a factor in her favor.
A non-factor.


Booga booga boo. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=No98tQWkPSQ)

There, bending fire created by others.
Cute. When you wanna get serious we'll continue.

Until then, Roy snaps his fingers, Korra dies.

[Bradley]

Whichever episode he revealed his Ultimate Eye I imagine. Been years since I seen it. Splitting hairs in any event.

Wait, you can't even remember where it was stated yet you're making the claim? It's not "splitting hairs", it's demanding for evidence until you provide it. You haven't backed up your claim.


A: Yes, yes he is.
B: I was actually talking about Bradley.


A. No, he isn't.
B. Ok? And since Roy is not comparable to manga/Brotherhood Bradley it matters not one bit.

A non-factor.

I wouldn't say a weakness that almost allowed anime Bradley to kill Mustang is a non-factor. But this one really is just splitting hairs. If Korra uses airbending it could cause a problem for Roy, but since airbending is Korra's weakest bending art she's unlikely to resort to it.

Cute. When you wanna get serious we'll continue.

Until then, Roy snaps his fingers, Korra dies.

I proved Korra can bend fire from someone else. Ball's back in your court to prove that Roy's fire is too fast for Korra to bend.

[Cult of Personality]

It's not "splitting hairs", it's demanding for evidence until you provide it.

No it's definitely splitting hairs. Focusing too much on a hyperbolic claim I made in an attempt to avoid having to address the real issue.

A. No, he isn't.Yes, he is.

B. Ok? And since Roy is not comparable to manga/Brotherhood Bradley it matters not one bit.Bradley >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 99% of Avatar. Roy is somewhere in his league. Ergo, Roy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some odd percentage of Avatar.

I wouldn't say a weakness that almost allowed anime Bradley to kill Mustang is a non-factorNor would I if its use were guaranteed.

If Korra uses airbending it could cause a problem for Roy, Key word: If.

I proved Korra can bend fire from someone else. Ball's back in your court to prove that Roy's fire is too fast for Korra to bend.The fact that Korra is capable of being fire other than that which she generated is a given. But as you and I both know, that's not the sticking issue here. You say Korra deflects Roy's fire, you have to prove she's fast enough.

Failure to do so will lead to me reporting you as the troll you so clearly are.

[ILIKEPIE]

this is not a pretty debate, cult vs bradley someting bad is going to happen.

I would gives this to Roy since his fire is shown to be faster than fire bending

[321zigzag3]

It's not that Roy's fire is dangerous. It is the explosion that he can create it is more aligned with "boom" alchemy.

Its the near instantaneous explosion that Roy can do at literally snap of a finger around Korra which can kill her or at least decimate her.

Doesn't he have a glove that allows him to manipulate air and earth as well?

[Bradley]

No it's definitely splitting hairs. Focusing too much on a hyperbolic claim I made in an attempt to avoid having to address the real issue.

Hyperbolic claim? What? You made the claim that Bradley has precog. There's no hyperbole to it, either he does or he doesn't. I freely admit that manga/Brotherhood Bradley has it, but that doesn't mean 2003 anime Bradley does. I'm simply asking you to back up the claim. If you don't back up the claim it's not valid for the debate, simple as that.

Yes, he is.

Bradley >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 99% of Avatar. Roy is somewhere in his league. Ergo, Roy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some odd percentage of AvatarHow is Roy in Bradley's league? And how is Bradley astronomically better than most of Avatar?

The fact that Korra is capable of being fire other than that which she generated is a given. But as you and I both know, that's not the sticking issue here. You say Korra deflects Roy's fire, you have to prove she's fast enough.

Failure to do so will lead to me reporting you as the troll you so clearly are.You have to prove Roy's fire is fast enough for it to be an issue first. You made this claim:

More importantly, his explosions are fast enough so as to be near instantaneous.You have to prove this yourself.

It's rather funny that you seem to think you have some sort of moral high ground after insulting me like that. If anything I should be reporting you.

[Cult of Personality]

Yeah that's what I thought you'd say. Report.

So does everyone agree that Roy wins instantly by snapping his fingers?

[Bradley]

Flaming: We have no problem with you calling a spade a spade (if you can prove it) what we do have a problem with is bullying. Posters should realize our members are under no obligation to treat you the same way one would treat a Pre-K student. Unwarranted cruelty and flaming that is without justification is another matter entirely report this and we’ll put a stop to it.

Right back at ya.

[Cult of Personality]

If you don't want to be insulted don't deserve to be insulted.

[Bradley]

If you don't want to be insulted don't deserve to be insulted.

Could we get back to debating now, or are you going to continue flaming?

[Cult of Personality]

When you want to begin supporting your claims I'd be glad to continue.

Until that happens, I see no reason to bother.

[Muffintop]

Back on topic or this thread's being closed.

[Bradley]

Back on topic or this thread's being closed.

Gladly, I'm trying to.

When you want to begin supporting your claims I'd be glad to continue.

Until that happens, I see no reason to bother.

I'm waiting for support for the claim that Roy's attacks are too fast for Korra to defend against. I mean, you need to at least establish what Mustang's speed is before I can even try to argue against it.

[Cult of Personality]

One last time. You say Korra's able to deflect Roy's attacks, you are required to prove. Not merely on a technical level, but in every respect, including reaction time.

[Bradley]

One last time. You say Korra's able to deflect Roy's attacks, you are required to prove. Not merely on a technical level, but in every respect, including reaction time.

How do you expect me me to argue against something that hasn't even been established? Try to understand me here. The discussion is kind of going like this:

Me: I think X stands a good chance at beating Y.

You: Can X react to Y's attacks?

Me: Good question. How fast are Y's attacks?

You: Prove X can react to Y's attacks!

Me: ...Can you tell me how fast Y's attacks are for comparison?

You: Quiet, troll! Prove X can react to Y's attacks!

Me: Well, I sort of need that detail...

You: You can't prove X can react to Y's attacks!

Do you see where I'm coming from, here? I need to know Mustang's attack speed in order to make an argument that Korra can react to it. Would you be so kind as to provide it?

[Cult of Personality]

If you've watched/read FMA then you should already know and you wouldn't be wasting everyone's time. If you've done neither than you have no business arguing against Roy to begin with.

One way or the other, I'm still right, you're still wrong, Roy still wins, and there's nothing more to be said.

[Bradley]

If you've watched/read FMA then you should already know and you wouldn't be wasting everyone's time. If you've done neither than you have no business arguing against Roy to begin with.

One way or the other, I'm still right, you're still wrong, Roy still wins, and there's nothing more to be said.

I have watched FMA (both series) and read some of the manga. Funnily enough, I don't remember Roy's attacks every being stated to be impossible to react to or being supersonic or what have you. There's nothing special about the speed of Roy's attacks (the time it takes for the spark to reach the pocket of H and O) so no special evidence is needed to prove that Korra can react to it. Unless, of course, you can provide evidence otherwise regarding Mustang's attack speed.

[Cult of Personality]

Oh good, we've moved on to the portion of the evening where you make straw man arguments in lieu of just refusing to accept the burden of proof.

Naturally, I never claimed Roy's attacks were impossible to react to, nor that they were supersonic.

You have still not provided any evidence to support your claims.

This is just going in circles. Can a mod lock this please?

[Bradley]

Oh good, we've moved on to the portion of the evening where you make straw man arguments in lieu of just refusing to accept the burden of proof.

Naturally, I never claimed Roy's attacks were impossible to react to, nor that they were supersonic.

Maybe you didn't use those exact words (and I didn't say you did), but you did make this claim:

More importantly, his explosions are fast enough so as to be near instantaneous.

which you have refused to support.

You have still not provided any evidence to support your claims.

You still haven't provided any evidence to support your claim that Roy's attacks are too fast for Korra to react to. And before you say you're not making the claim that Roy's attacks are too fast for Korra to react to, if that's the case then there is nothing particularly special about Roy's attack speed so Korra does not require any particularly special speed feats to react to it. To qualify as able to defend against Roy's attacks she simply needs to be able to use a defense which could stop it (firebending or earthbending would suffice).

This is just going in circles. Can a mod lock this please?

Feel free to step out of the debate if you're getting frustrated.

[JLI2infinity]

Could we get back to debating now, or are you going to continue flaming?

Hey Bradley, I know you're new here but don't worry about it. Cult is a user that goes around violating the rules while all the mods ignore him or only give him a slap on the wrist. When he believes he's right he's extremely obnoxious about it and even if he flames and baits you into getting upset all that will happen is a mod will come in and just say something like "settle down guys" or worst case scenario you end up in trouble as a new member. It's best to not debate him when he acts like this, but to be honest he hasn't been nearly as bad as I've seen in other threads. He's actually sticking to his arguments for the most part.

Anyways, I actually agree with Cult. The problem here is that the Avatarverse is limited because in America a lot of action based cartoons reside in the realm of children's entertainment. Therefore, Korra hasn't demonstrated the durability or ruthlessness to fight an opponent like Roy.

Roy started his fight with Envy by lighting the fluid in his eyeballs on fire. That kind of pain right there would just completely destroy Korra's mental state and take her out of the battle. And you don't have to worry about reaction speeds, without any intel Korra wouldn't know to dodge Roy's snaps. Anyways there is the possibility that Korra bends the fire off of her but she would still be suffering damage every time she gets lit up.

Finally, both Avatar teams (this one and the previous) have demonstrated how poorly they do against telepathic bending. Combustion man pressured all of Aang's team and I'd venture to say that Roy's powers are even better than that.

Roy would not hesitate to set the fluid on Korra's eyeballs on fire and while she writhes in pain, he ignites her bone marrow and ends the fight.

[joon61]

why is this even here.
Roy blew up envy's eyeballs with pin point aiming.
Korra has no chance.

[Bradley]

Roy started his fight with Envy by lighting the fluid in his eyeballs on fire. That kind of pain right there would just completely destroy Korra's mental state and take her out of the battle. And you don't have to worry about reaction speeds, without any intel Korra wouldn't know to dodge Roy's snaps. Anyways there is the possibility that Korra bends the fire off of her but she would still be suffering damage every time she gets lit up.

According to forum rules both sides get basic knowledge of each other. In Mustang's case that would be "causes explosions", so Korra would be ready to firebend or earthbend in defense. If Roy did boil Korra's eyes the fight would be over, but Korra can prevent that.

Finally, both Avatar teams (this one and the previous) have demonstrated how poorly they do against telepathic bending. Combustion man pressured all of Aang's team and I'd venture to say that Roy's powers are even better than that.

Combustion Man was also able to power through any any attack Team Avatar sent at him and had better destruction feats than Roy. Korra has the Avatar State available to her, which would allow her to stomp on both Roy and Combustion Man.

[joon61]

If roy snaps his fingers,her eyes are blown up.
Yep,just like that.

[Cult of Personality]

which you have refused to support.

Reference: Fullmetal Alchemist.

You still haven't provided any evidence to support your claim that Roy's attacks are too fast for Korra to react to I don't need to since the burden of proof is on you prove Korra is that fast.


And when you wanna provide that proof, then we'll be getting somewhere. Until then we're just going in circles because you don't want to admit that you're wrong.

he flames and baits you

I take exception to this. Never once have I ever baited anyone. When I insult people it is merely to express my disdain for them. Not to provoke a like response.

[Larry01239]

Roy snaps his fingers, Korra explodes.


BG defaults apply

fight takes place in a depopulate Lake Havasu city Arizona..

hows this go?
...so did you create a stomp thread for any specific reason?

[JLI2infinity]

According to forum rules both sides get basic knowledge of each other. In Mustang's case that would be "causes explosions", so Korra would be ready to firebend or earthbend in defense. If Roy did boil Korra's eyes the fight would be over, but Korra can prevent that.



Combustion Man was also able to power through any any attack Team Avatar sent at him and had better destruction feats than Roy. Korra has the Avatar State available to her, which would allow her to stomp on both Roy and Combustion Man.

Causes explosions and lights eyeballs on fire are two different sets of intel my friend. If she was able to prep for ridiculous telepathic abilities then when she went up against Tarlokk she wouldn't have gotten owned by blood bending. She had her basic intel "bends fluids" but she didn't think that meant fluids in her body. Just like she'd have her basic intel "causes explosions" but wouldn't think that means explosions in her body.

[Bradley]

Reference: Fullmetal Alchemist.

Oh. In that case, I reference Legend of Korra for evidence that Korra is fast enough to react to Mustang's attacks.

I don't need to since the burden of proof is on you prove Korra is that fast.

And when you wanna provide that proof, then we'll be getting somewhere. Until then we're just going in circles because you don't want to admit that you're wrong.

You haven't even established how fast Roy is in the first place. That Roy Mustang's attacks are too fast for Korra is your claim. Your claim, your burden of proof.

Causes explosions and lights eyeballs on fire are two different sets of intel my friend. If she was able to prep for ridiculous telepathic abilities then when she went up against Tarlokk she wouldn't have gotten owned by blood bending. She had her basic intel "bends fluids" but she didn't think that meant fluids in her body. Just like she'd have her basic intel "causes explosions" but wouldn't think that means explosions in her body.

The process is still the same -- there's a perceivable ignition trail between Roy's glove and the target area. Korra can block that ignition trail either with firebending or earthbending (any bending will do really, those are just what Korra could use most successfully).

[Cult of Personality]

http://gentogenym.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/going-around-in-circles-300x300.png


You say Korra can deflect Roy's flames, that means more than just technical ability, it also includes the actual capacity to react to the claim. The burden of proof is entirely yours and that will never change.

[Bradley]

You say Korra can deflect Roy's flames, that means more than just technical ability, it also includes the actual capacity to react to the claim. The burden of proof is entirely yours and that will never change.

Unless you prove that Mustang's attack speed is anything special, nothing special needs to be proved about Korra's speed to react to it. So yeah. Evidence about Mustang's speed?

[Cult of Personality]

So what you're saying is, you have no actual proof and are just dragging this out because you don't want to admit that you're wrong. Good to know. Block.

[BMC1994]

You guy should first tell me when did roy ever fry someone from 50m (defaults) distance without a philosophers stone.

To counter the combustion man argument note that he has never actually hit someone (If he is as you guys claim somewhat comparable to roy)

I'd make a longer response but i have to go now.

Probably gonna edit this post later to add some more.

Edit: :P

If we are using the 2003 anime as reference anyway note that ed a teen with no special background/speed at all dodged roy 'instant' attacks.

[Bradley]

So what you're saying is, you have no actual proof and are just dragging this out because you don't want to admit that you're wrong. Good to know.

I'm saying there is nothing to present proof against, because you refuse to quantify Mustang's attack speed. You have no evidence that Mustang's attack speed even makes a difference. I refer back to this:


Me: I think X stands a good chance at beating Y.


You: Can X react to Y's attacks?


Me: Good question. How fast are Y's attacks?


You: Prove X can react to Y's attacks!


Me: ...Can you tell me how fast Y's attacks are for comparison?


You: Quiet, troll! Prove X can react to Y's attacks!


Me: Well, I sort of need that detail...


You: You can't prove X can react to Y's attacks!

Edit: Hah. Noticed the edit where he said he blocked me. Figures, if you can't win through logic but are dead set on your side, there's nothing left but to cover your ears.

[Cult of Personality]

You guy should first tell me when did roy ever fry someone from 50m (defaults) distance without a philosophers stone.

Hey look, a reasonable response. Didn't see that coming. In Flame vs Fullmetal when Roy attacked Ed while he was in the crowd it kinda looked like it might've been fifty meters, but I wouldn't swear by it.

In any event, I'd be willing to bet that Roy's range is better than Korra's so they just need to move closer and then boom Korra dies with a snap of his fingers.

I can't ever recall her fighting at anything other than close range, and since she's primarily a firebender she's at a disadvantage against Roy. Oxygen de Gentleman Strategy kills her the second she lights up. :lol:

Especially since she has no idea what he can do beyond "Turn stuff into other stuff" while he knows all he needs to know about her.

[Bradley]

In any event, I'd be willing to bet that Roy's range is better than Korra's so they just need to move closer and then boom Korra dies with a snap of his fingers.

That's all the time Korra needs to enter the Avatar State, at which point she far outranges Mustang.

I can't ever recall her fighting at anything other than close range, and since she's primarily a firebender she's at a disadvantage against Roy. Oxygen de Gentleman Strategy kills her the second she lights up. :lol:

If you're going to mention that, I might as well bring up Korra's advantage with airbending again.

[Cult of Personality]

This message is hidden because Bradley is on your ignore list (http://naruto.viz.com/forum/profile.php?do=ignorelist).

Well, if you knew that Roy could annihirape Korra why didn't you say so from the start? :ippy

[Bradley]

*deep breath* Just be the bigger man...

Anyone else have something to add to the debate?

[Cult of Personality]

This message is hidden because Bradley is on your ignore list (http://naruto.viz.com/forum/profile.php?do=ignorelist).

No, I will not take my clothes off. How dare you.

[Vatanui AKA Pride]

You guy should first tell me when did roy ever fry someone from 50m (defaults) distance without a philosophers stone.


Fullmetal Alchemist Chapter 107, pg. 28.

Blind Mustang targets Father from 53 meters away, as Hawkeye calculates. Seeing as that Hawkeye was considered as one of the best snipers in the entire military during the Ishvalan Civil War, if not the best, then I could say that her judgment in scale and distance would be accurate.

Also, the oven technique that Mustang uses a few pages later seems to be shot from an even further distance. There's little tidbits of him using his flame alchemy throughout the manga and anime series, but the one page that I provided should be more than enough.

[Bradley]

Fullmetal Alchemist Chapter 107, pg. 28.

Blind Mustang targets Father from 53 meters away, as Hawkeye calculates. Seeing as that Hawkeye was considered as one of the best snipers in the entire military during the Ishvalan Civil War, if not the best, then I could say that her judgment in scale and distance would be accurate.

Also, the oven technique that Mustang uses a few pages later seems to be shot from an even further distance. There's little tidbits of him using his flame alchemy throughout the manga and anime series, but the one page that I provided should be more than enough.

Excellent point. Still, a range of 50 meters should give Korra even more time to react.

[Vatanui AKA Pride]

Excellent point. Still, a range of 50 meters should give Korra even more time to react.

Well, that does depend on which series version of Mustang you're planning on using.

The 2003 anime one is much more easier to argue against, seeing as that there aren't many quantifiable feats of characters reacting to objects as fast as they have in the manga or Brotherhood anime.
So it could be argued that what little impressive feats of speed and reaction Mustang has had for the 2003 anime are are high-end variables or in some cases, used for comedic effect. For instance, the episode where he fought Ed series mid-point.

The manga, ergo the canon, on the other hand ... has Mustang being able to follow and, albeit barely, reacting to Bradley's movements, who himself is able to casually deflect heavy machine gun fire and cut cannon shells in half, despite being well into his sixties. Mind you, he was charging alone and directly into enemy territory with just a sword and one grenade. Enemy territory that was defended by a Briggs' tank, which were considered to be one of the most advanced technologies in the entire Atermis military force at the time.

Long story short? Korra would most likely lose if it was manga/Brotherhood Roy. With 2003 anime Mustang, she has a much better chance at winning this fight. Of course, that is if there were any to begin with.

Although there is, of course, the possibility of the Avatar State. However, Korra doesn't have many feats with it besides acting as a deus ex machina.

[Devils Lawyer]

A soldier who survived a warzone vs a little girl with a little power with no killing experience. Avatar hype is too much Haku the little boy dressed as a girl could solo it in my opinion. They aren't built to fight true killers.

[Bradley]

Well, that does depend on which series version of Mustang you're planning on using.

The 2003 anime one is much more easier to argue against, seeing as that there aren't many quantifiable feats of characters reacting to objects as fast as they have in the manga or Brotherhood anime.
So it could be argued that what little impressive feats of speed and reaction Mustang has had for the 2003 anime are are high-end variables or in some cases, used for comedic effect. For instance, the episode where he fought Ed series mid-point.

The manga, ergo the canon, on the other hand ... has Mustang being able to follow and, albeit barely, reacting to Bradley's movements, who himself is able to casually deflect heavy machine gun fire and cut cannon shells in half, despite being well into his sixties. Mind you, he was charging alone and directly into enemy territory with just a sword and one grenade. Enemy territory that was defended by a Briggs' tank, which were considered to be one of the most advanced technologies in the entire Atermis military force at the time.

Bradley never deflects machine gun fire or cuts a tank shell in the manga, actually. Those details were added by Brotherhood.

Although there is, of course, the possibility of the Avatar State. However, Korra doesn't have many feats with it besides acting as a deus ex machina.

That's the neat thing about the Avatar State, though. It gives the Avatar the skills and knowledge of all the past Avatars. So essentially any feat by a past Avatar applies to Korra when she's in the Avatar State.

[Vatanui AKA Pride]

A soldier who survived a warzone vs a little girl with a little power with no killing experience. Avatar hype is too much Haku the little boy dressed as a girl could solo it in my opinion. They aren't built to fight true killers.

Mustang isn't just flames and sparks. He has used firearms during his cadet training before the Ishvalan Civil War, as the Brotherhood OVAs had shown, and is rather adept at it. Not Hawkeye level, but not bad either.

[Devils Lawyer]

Mustang isn't just flames and sparks. He has used firearms during his cadet training before the Ishvalan Civil War, as the Brotherhood OVAs had shown, and is rather adept at it. Not Hawkeye level, but not bad either.

Yep that is why I pointed out the fact he is trained killer who survived hell. Not just some martial artist who throw rocks and splash puddles.

[Vatanui AKA Pride]

Bradley never deflects machine gun fire or cuts a tank shell in the manga, actually. Those details were added by Brotherhood.



That's the neat thing about the Avatar State, though. It gives the Avatar the skills and knowledge of all the past Avatars. So essentially any feat by a past Avatar applies to Korra when she's in the Avatar State.

.. You didn't read the manga, did you?

If I recall correctly, the Avatar State only supposed to allow you to communicate with your past lives and by conjunction, their knowledge. Their abilities and skills don't get passed onto you. The only time there is an exception to that rule is when you allow a past Avatar to take temporary control of your body, as shown with Aang and Roku during the Summer Solstice.

[Bradley]

.. You didn't read the manga, did you?

I haven't read the manga fully, but I have read the part where Bradley takes out the tank. Essentially he runs into the machine gun fire, but is not shown dodging the fire or deflecting it with his sword. He is also not shown slicing a tank shell. He does dodge a single bullet from a rifle a chapter or so later.

If I recall correctly, the Avatar State only supposed to allow you to communicate with your past lives and by conjunction, their knowledge. Their abilities and skills don't get passed onto you. The only time there is an exception to that rule is when you allow a past Avatar to take temporary control of your body, as shown with Aang and Roku during the Summer Solstice.

This is what Roku says to Aang in the episode "The Avatar State":

"The Avatar state is a defense mechanism, designed to empower you with the skills and knowledge of all the past Avatars. The glow is the combination of all your past lives, focusing their energy through your body."

Seems pretty clear to me.

[JLI2infinity]

Problem is Korra can't willingly enter the Avatar state. And if you give Roy his gun which would fall under his usual weapons he definitely wins but I'm assuming that was meant to be a restriction.

That ignition trail you mentioned is helpful at a distance but Korra doesn't fight from half a football field away most of the time she's within 10-20 feet of her target. As everyone's pointed out Roy knows how to move, he survived a war zone. I'm sure this all works beautifully in theory, with Korra's bending knowledge but you're forgetting about how Korra actually is on the battlefield.

She doesn't move like an assassin or even like a master bender, she moves like someone relying on their raw power and natural skill. Only recently did she learn air bending so it's not like that gives her some new elite mastery. There are numerous times where she's been blindsided our embarrassed. In case you forgot her and the gang were getting owned by equalists early series. They were easily dodging her bending and getting close enough to disable her. Of course Roy isn't extensively trained in martial arts but as a soldier he knows how to evade to survive.

If she charges Roy and he dodges her initial attack....snap, eyeballs roasted, game over. Korra also hasn't shown the analytical abilities necessary to determine the nature of Roy's attacks. I doubt she'd be able to figure out he uses his left hand for precision and his right hand for devastation.

[Bradley]

Problem is Korra can't willingly enter the Avatar state. And if you give Roy his gun which would fall under his usual weapons he definitely wins but I'm assuming that was meant to be a restriction.

Yes, she can. She gains the ability at the end of book 1. Previews of book 2 show her entering the Avatar State at will.

That ignition trail you mentioned is helpful at a distance but Korra doesn't fight from half a football field away most of the time she's within 10-20 feet of her target. As everyone's pointed out Roy knows how to move, he survived a war zone. I'm sure this all works beautifully in theory, with Korra's bending knowledge but you're forgetting about how Korra actually is on the battlefield.

She doesn't move like an assassin or even like a master bender, she moves like someone relying on their raw power and natural skill. Only recently did she learn air bending so it's not like that gives her some new elite mastery. There are numerous times where she's been blindsided our embarrassed. In case you forgot her and the gang were getting owned by equalists early series. They were easily dodging her bending and getting close enough to disable her. Of course Roy isn't extensively trained in martial arts but as a soldier he knows how to evade to survive.

If she charges Roy and he dodges her initial attack....snap, eyeballs roasted, game over. Korra also hasn't shown the analytical abilities necessary to determine the nature of Roy's attacks. I doubt she'd be able to figure out he uses his left hand for precision and his right hand for devastation.

Character Induced Stupidity doesn't factor into fights according to forum rules. Korra would still be able to send out a general "put flames out" move towards Roy when he snaps.

[JLI2infinity]

Yes, she can. She gains the ability at the end of book 1. Previews of book 2 show her entering the Avatar State at will.

Character Induced Stupidity doesn't factor into fights according to forum rules. Korra would still be able to send out a general "put flames out" move towards Roy when he snaps.

At the end of Book 1 it was by emotional turbulence caused by her overwhelming guilt at the failure to protect her friends. You can't cite book 2 because you don't know the circumstances behind it yet. There have been no episodes where she underwent any of the training Aang did to control his chakras.

You have this slightly irritating habit of responding to one or two sentences in a detailed post. It's not CIS if that's actually a part of her character. We can't just dismiss any time Guy Gardner acts like a major d*** and does something stupid as CIS because that's his real personality. Korra is inexperienced, short tempered, and overconfident in battle it's not CIS it's how she acted throughout the entire series.

But that's not relevant to my main point that once she gets close to fight Roy he precision aims at her eyeballs. It's not a general flame she can wave away, it's a trail of oxygen molecules that explode instantaneously as soon as the snap occurs, at that close range she doesn't have time to react to it, just like Envy couldn't. I was willing to bend and accept that with some good distance Korra can react but this is the girl who's been tied up by some rope grapples, captured by hulking robots, and blindsided numerous times I won't just let you say she can react to a near instantaneous explosion at close range.

[Bradley]

At the end of Book 1 it was by emotional turbulence caused by her overwhelming guilt at the failure to protect her friends. You can't cite book 2 because you don't know the circumstances behind it yet. There have been no episodes where she underwent any of the training Aang did to control his chakras.

No, it wasn't caused by emotional turbulence. Aang appeared to her and used energybending. Korra calmly entered the Avatar State and exited afterward. She was in control. Though you have a point that we don't know the total context of the season 2 moment.

You have this slightly irritating habit of responding to one or two sentences in a detailed post. It's not CIS if that's actually a part of her character. We can't just dismiss any time Guy Gardner acts like a major d*** and does something stupid as CIS because that's his real personality. Korra is inexperienced, short tempered, and overconfident in battle it's not CIS it's how she acted throughout the entire series.

That's...exactly what CIS is. Character Induced Stupidity.

But that's not relevant to my main point that once she gets close to fight Roy he precision aims at her eyeballs. It's not a general flame she can wave away, it's a trail of oxygen molecules that explode instantaneously as soon as the snap occurs, at that close range she doesn't have time to react to it, just like Envy couldn't. I was willing to bend and accept that with some good distance Korra can react but this is the girl who's been tied up by some rope grapples, captured by hulking robots, and blindsided numerous times I won't just let you say she can react to a near instantaneous explosion at close range.

I must now ask for evidence that the ignition is "near instananeous" and too fast for Korra to react to. Envy didn't have firebending to defend against it.

[ILIKEPIE]

Standard BG fights do not exempt the contestants from CIS.

That's the rule on it.

[Bradley]

Standard BG fights do not exempt the contestants from CIS.

That's the rule on it.

Ah, ok. Still, I'm not seeing how Korra's character traits are enough to tip this fight in Mustang's favor. She has at least basic knowledge of Mustang's abilities (unlike when she first fought the chi blockers) so she knows how to defend.

[JLI2infinity]

No, it wasn't caused by emotional turbulence. Aang appeared to her and used energybending. Korra calmly entered the Avatar State and exited afterward. She was in control. Though you have a point that we don't know the total context of the season 2 moment.

That's...exactly what CIS is. Character Induced Stupidity.

I must now ask for evidence that the ignition is "near instananeous" and too fast for Korra to react to. Envy didn't have firebending to defend against it.

1.) Yes he appeared to her when she was extremely depressed after failing to protect everyone, emotional turbulence doesn't have to be a fit or rage or fear, it can also be deep sadness.

2.) CIS is used for things like battle actions that have significant effects on a character's ability, making them perform feats they aren't normally capable of or causing them to execute a subpar performance in spite of their skill set. It's used as an explanation for why someone doesn't fight within the normal range of their capabilities. An example would be if Naruto were to currently fight with Sakura and get knocked out by one punch despite having the speed to run laps around her before she can even swing. CIS is not used for mistakes a character makes due to a lack of experience or focus in battle, or their own personal flaws that affect how they fight. Korra getting caught by those things wasn't CIS, it was just her not being able to keep up in such a high paced, high level battle.

3.) The explosion is instantaneous as soon as the snap is heard. This was part of the explanation of Roy's flame alchemy. The snap isn't caused by Roy snapping his fingers to create the flame trail to his target, the snap is the signal of the combustion that's going to occur instantaneously afterward, it's like hearing a boom during an explosion. So if you had to scale the speed of Roy's attacks it would be the time it takes for Roy to snap his fingers, create the oxygen trail, then for a snapping sound to be heard as oxygen molecules explode.

Korra is aiming for the first two steps for her reaction time. You have her as reacting to him snapping his fingers and creating the trail which takes time from a distance but at close range Korra hasn't demonstrated the reaction feats to bend away the trail. She has been punched, snared, and grabbed at close range before all actions that take just as much time as Roy's flame alchemy. It doesn't matter that Envy doesn't know firebending, he didn't even have time to run before he got lit on fire. He was just sitting there writhing in pain, he only got away thanks to Homunculi regen. and Roy wanting to take his time and watch Envy burn slowly.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Do you hate Korra IWD? Especially that she doesn't start in Avatar state.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/WillSmith.jpg

ah but much has been said in the way of their capabilities of late



...so did you create a stomp thread for any specific reason?

the same reason that whitebeard vs Madara topic arose

it serves its purpose

also the entire section stands within a hairs breath of annihilation, you have friggen outsider Quasis coming in here and issuing orders- there is no BG'er staffer with any administrative power..we are cut off and alone here do you understand me? surrounded by enemies who want us shut down and demodded..and your going to cause such a ruckus that it brings in outside heat? Do you have any idea what could happen?

Calm down dudes, I'm not asking you go PBS but overt flaming is a total no no

that being said CoP buddy leave the accusations of the fornication of siblings and animals out of the topic if you wanna discuss how this guy plows the plow horses go VM on NF...and Bradley/Oman easy does it on the mass reporting no one likes a bawwer stand your ground and debate you may not always be right or objective but you are very good at mustering an argument And arguing it with relentlessness and I welcome it here..

now that being said..let's go back to the discussion at hand and let's do it..right

gentlemen..commence...Debate!!:p

[Cult of Personality]

Feh. I regret nothing. It deserves it.

Waiting on BMC to reply since he's the only one on Korra's side with the slightest shred of credibility (irony, considering I hate him).

[Bradley]

1.) Yes he appeared to her when she was extremely depressed after failing to protect everyone, emotional turbulence doesn't have to be a fit or rage or fear, it can also be deep sadness.

She wasn't really sad at the moment either.

2.) CIS is used for things like battle actions that have significant effects on a character's ability, making them perform feats they aren't normally capable of or causing them to execute a subpar performance in spite of their skill set. It's used as an explanation for why someone doesn't fight within the normal range of their capabilities. An example would be if Naruto were to currently fight with Sakura and get knocked out by one punch despite having the speed to run laps around her before she can even swing. CIS is not used for mistakes a character makes due to a lack of experience or focus in battle, or their own personal flaws that affect how they fight. Korra getting caught by those things wasn't CIS, it was just her not being able to keep up in such a high paced, high level battle.

Ok. It wasn't about her not being able to keep up, though. She had no idea what she was up against, and opponents were physically faster than anything Mustang's demonstrated. These are not advantages that Mustang is going to have.

3.) The explosion is instantaneous as soon as the snap is heard. This was part of the explanation of Roy's flame alchemy. The snap isn't caused by Roy snapping his fingers to create the flame trail to his target, the snap is the signal of the combustion that's going to occur instantaneously afterward, it's like hearing a boom during an explosion. So if you had to scale the speed of Roy's attacks it would be the time it takes for Roy to snap his fingers, create the oxygen trail, then for a snapping sound to be heard as oxygen molecules explode.

I asked for evidence to the claim that his explosion is instantaneous, but you basically just repeated your claim.. I know we can't exactly post scans here, but reference a chapter or episode so I can go look it up.

Korra is aiming for the first two steps for her reaction time. You have her as reacting to him snapping his fingers and creating the trail which takes time from a distance but at close range Korra hasn't demonstrated the reaction feats to bend away the trail. She has been punched, snared, and grabbed at close range before all actions that take just as much time as Roy's flame alchemy. It doesn't matter that Envy doesn't know firebending, he didn't even have time to run before he got lit on fire. He was just sitting there writhing in pain, he only got away thanks to Homunculi regen. and Roy wanting to take his time and watch Envy burn slowly.

Korra has been punched at close range by combatants who are physically faster than Mustang. Korra also has successfully blocked people at close range (the firebending test, Triple Threat Triads). Again, you need evidence that Mustang's attacks are particularly fast.

[joon61]

Dammit man.
You are the only one saying korra wins this.
She loses,mustang is just to powerful.
This is what i feel.
This should be a rule.
ANYONE WHO HAS NOT READ THE MANGA OR WATCHED THE ANIME,SHOULD NOT DEBATE ON THE CHARACTER FROM THAT ANIME.

[321zigzag3]

also the entire section stands within a hairs breath of annihilation

How certain are you of this?

Dammit man.
You are the only one saying korra wins this.
She loses,mustang is just to powerful.
This is what i feel.
This should be a rule.
ANYONE WHO HAS NOT READ THE MANGA OR WATCHED THE ANIME,SHOULD NOT DEBATE ON THE CHARACTER FROM THAT ANIME.

Well he has stated he has for both. Just different interpetation on his part.

[JLI2infinity]

She wasn't really sad at the moment either.

Ok. It wasn't about her not being able to keep up, though. She had no idea what she was up against, and opponents were physically faster than anything Mustang's demonstrated. These are not advantages that Mustang is going to have.

I asked for evidence to the claim that his explosion is instantaneous, but you basically just repeated your claim.. I know we can't exactly post scans here, but reference a chapter or episode so I can go look it up.

Korra has been punched at close range by combatants who are physically faster than Mustang. Korra also has successfully blocked people at close range (the firebending test, Triple Threat Triads). Again, you need evidence that Mustang's attacks are particularly fast.

1.) She was sad. She felt like she hadn't fulfilled her duties as the Avatar. This isn't debatable it's her own words. Like Rukia said when she saw Ichigo after his fight with Grimmjow "Those eyes don't look like the eyes of someone who just won." Korra was reeling from a Pyrrhic victory and so she had the emotional disposition to enter the Avatar state.

2.) Her getting captured happened multiple times and how often do people know exactly what they're up against in a fight. Her getting caught was a testament to her lack of skill. Sorry to break this to you but you've been overrating this teenage girl the entire thread.

3.) I mean you can continue to ask for evidence all you want but I'm not sure what you're asking for? It's exactly like the example I mentioned the snap for his attacks is like a boom in an explosion. You could ask "Well can you prove to me the boom happens instantaneously with an explosion?" and all I could tell you to do is look at it. That's what happens. Here are the steps to Roy's flame alchemy...

-Initiate friction with snap
-Alchemy chain reaction begins with transmutation circle on his gloves and oxygen molecules in the atmosphere form a trail to the target
-As oxygen molecules combust, the explosion is created and a snap is heard

If you are asking me where in the manga / anime this is explained. I honestly don't remember since I watched and read the series in bits and pieces but if you're trying to dispute a claim that no one else in the debate has had a problem with you do the research for yourself and tell me where my explanation is flawed.

4.) Umm I'm just going to pull your tactic out here and ask how are the equalists physically faster than Roy Mustang? In case you forgot the Equalists are just average citizens who got trained in advanced martial arts. None of them have the powers of benders. So saying they are physically faster than Roy who's a trained soldier with an impressive evasion feat is just you bending the argument to suit your side. The only people in Avatar with superhuman speed or reaction feats are benders like Aang who could run faster than the wind or Ozai who could use his fire jets to fly and keep up with Aang. I'd suspect the only non benders with comparable feats would be very high level master martial artists like Ty Lee or Sokka's sword master (maybe Sokka and Suki in the future after they'd trained more).

[Bradley]

1.) She was sad. She felt like she hadn't fulfilled her duties as the Avatar. This isn't debatable it's her own words. Like Rukia said when she saw Ichigo after his fight with Grimmjow "Those eyes don't look like the eyes of someone who just won." Korra was reeling from a Pyrrhic victory and so she had the emotional disposition to enter the Avatar state.

Have you actually watched the end of Legend of Korra? She enters the Avatar State after Aang appears and uses energybending to restore her bending. She is not sad after that point.

2.) Her getting captured happened multiple times and how often do people know exactly what they're up against in a fight. Her getting caught was a testament to her lack of skill. Sorry to break this to you but you've been overrating this teenage girl the entire thread.

She got "captured" all of twice in the show. The first time, her guard was down and she was vastly outnumbered by the Equalists. The second, she was going to win before Tarrlok did something she completely did not expect: he bloodbended her. Mustang doesn't the advantage of numbers, the advantage of surprise, or the advantage of having a broken power that could completely shut her down. Whatever lack of skill those scenarios showed is something Mustang can't exploit, so it's irrelevant.

3.) I mean you can continue to ask for evidence all you want but I'm not sure what you're asking for? It's exactly like the example I mentioned the snap for his attacks is like a boom in an explosion. You could ask "Well can you prove to me the boom happens instantaneously with an explosion?" and all I could tell you to do is look at it. That's what happens. Here are the steps to Roy's flame alchemy...

-Initiate friction with snap
-Alchemy chain reaction begins with transmutation circle on his gloves and oxygen molecules in the atmosphere form a trail to the target
-As oxygen molecules combust, the explosion is created and a snap is heard

If you are asking me where in the manga / anime this is explained. I honestly don't remember since I watched and read the series in bits and pieces but if you're trying to dispute a claim that no one else in the debate has had a problem with you do the research for yourself and tell me where my explanation is flawed.

I know the steps to Roy's alchemy. I'm asking for evidence for the idea that the spark travels from Roy's glove to the target site in a way that's too fast for Korra to react to. Simply explaining the process doesn't prove that.


4.) Umm I'm just going to pull your tactic out here and ask how are the equalists physically faster than Roy Mustang? In case you forgot the Equalists are just average citizens who got trained in advanced martial arts. None of them have the powers of benders. So saying they are physically faster than Roy who's a trained soldier with an impressive evasion feat is just you bending the argument to suit your side. The only people in Avatar with superhuman speed or reaction feats are benders like Aang who could run faster than the wind or Ozai who could use his fire jets to fly and keep up with Aang. I'd suspect the only non benders with comparable feats would be very high level master martial artists like Ty Lee or Sokka's sword master (maybe Sokka and Suki in the future after they'd trained more).

The Equalists have martial arts training and proficiency; Roy Mustang has never demonstrated martial arts proficiency or really any sort of agility. You don't have to be superhuman to simply faster than an average human.

[Nigoyukai]

If this is a no-knowledge straight-up deathmatch, Roy ignites Korra's eyes. After that, she's useless. He'll just burn her to a crisp.

[Wooster]

I've been to Lake Havasu. `:D
Umm, in terms of the fight..they both die of dehydration. I have spoken :ugeek:

Edit: Now that I read the thread and have some base understadning of these characters provided by the posters here:

It matters little if Korra can bend the fire that Roy creates. As I understand it, Roy creates fire that expoldes.
This means that even if Korra removes all the "fire," the explosive force from igniting her in the first places will blow her to bits.

[Bradley]

I've been to Lake Havasu. `:D
Umm, in terms of the fight..they both die of dehydration. I have spoken :ugeek:

Edit: Now that I read the thread and have some base understadning of these characters provided by the posters here:

It matters little if Korra can bend the fire that Roy creates. As I understand it, Roy creates fire that expoldes.
This means that even if Korra removes all the "fire," the explosive force from igniting her in the first places will blow her to bits.

Firebenders can protect from explosions. ie when the pirates blew up Zuko's ship and he survived, or when Zuko protected himself from one of Combustion Man's explosions. Korra could also just put out the spark before it reaches the gas pocket, or raise an earth wall in defense.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

I'd like to know how Oman thinks Korra can defend from having the air in her lungs exploded

[Bradley]

I'd like to know how Oman thinks Korra can defend from having the air in her lungs exploded

I'd like to know when Mustang has done such a thing. And it's probably best to not confuse other posters by calling me by my NF handle.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

I'd like to know when Mustang has done such a thing. And it's probably best to not confuse other posters by calling me by my NF handle.

in the 03 anime (and I honestly have no idea why we're using him)

and given the pinpoint accuracy and superior reflexes of his canon version I find it amusing that it's suggested korra can just stop him from blowing her face off

[Bradley]

in the 03 anime (and I honestly have no idea why we're using him)

What episode?

and given the pinpoint accuracy and superior reflexes of his canon version I find it amusing that it's suggested korra can just stop him from blowing her face off

Accuracy is irrelevant if Korra is able to block it. And I've yet to see any evidence of "superior reflexes" for Roy. If nothing else, Korra can just raise an earth wall to momentarily hold off Roy's attacks, enter the Avatar State, and then it's all over for Roy.

[JLI2infinity]

Have you actually watched the end of Legend of Korra? She enters the Avatar State after Aang appears and uses energybending to restore her bending. She is not sad after that point.



She got "captured" all of twice in the show. The first time, her guard was down and she was vastly outnumbered by the Equalists. The second, she was going to win before Tarrlok did something she completely did not expect: he bloodbended her. Mustang doesn't the advantage of numbers, the advantage of surprise, or the advantage of having a broken power that could completely shut her down. Whatever lack of skill those scenarios showed is something Mustang can't exploit, so it's irrelevant.



I know the steps to Roy's alchemy. I'm asking for evidence for the idea that the spark travels from Roy's glove to the target site in a way that's too fast for Korra to react to. Simply explaining the process doesn't prove that.



The Equalists have martial arts training and proficiency; Roy Mustang has never demonstrated martial arts proficiency or really any sort of agility. You don't have to be superhuman to simply faster than an average human.

1.) Oh you're talking about the second time she entered the Avatar state, I see. This entire time I thought you were referring to the first time where she had to use spirit world hax to bring people's bending back which was kind of weak. TBH if you want to count that as her willingly entering the Avatar state that's fine but for now I will chock that up to fan service and PIS. She has had no formal training for entering the Avatar state, and this was probably Dimartino and Konietzko trying to give the fans one more look at the Avatar state before the show went on hiatus, and possibly because the series was so short we didn't get to see it in action that often. Similar to the book 2 preview we don't know the circumstances behind her entering the Avatar state at that moment, she could've been out there for hours meditating. Entering the Avatar state has never been instant. Even Aang who had a natural proclivity to the spirit world and received training had to create an Earth dome to meditate in so he could prep himself in his fight against Ozai, with no context you can't say Korra can do that mid battle.

2.) It's not just about getting captured. It's about getting hit. She's been hit by stray weapons or basic attacks numerous times. This is just proof that her reaction feats aren't as stellar as you're making them out to be. A giant robot caught her in a grapple, she didn't just Earthbend a wall in front of her because she wasn't fast enough. It wasn't about her being outnumbered either.

3.) All you've been doing is asking for the time delay in Roy's attack. Yet it's a question that can't be answered except for the PIS scenario where Ed was dodging his snaps in the 2003 anime no one's shown the ability to react to it. The best examples I can think of are Envy not being able to outrun it or attack before it was used and a feat I'm sure you'll use to your benefit, where Al got up a giant stone wall to shield himself from the explosion a second before Roy lit Lust on fire. However, in the Al scenario Roy was using some makeshift tools for his flame alchemy (no gloves and a lighter for a spark), he announced his arrival, and the explosion wasn't actually targeting Al. But to best answer your question in FMA Brotherhood literally a second after Roy clicked the lighter / snapped his fingers, the explosion occurred. In his fight with Lust the explosions were happening in the same animation as him clicking the lighter. That is much too fast for Korra to react to at close range.

4.) Roy has never demonstrated any sort of agility? He's a solider that survived in a war zone. He wasn't casually strolling through the battlefield. He was moving around in a life or death situation.

[Uchiha Sora]

Why are people referencing the anime? :lol: is it canon?

[joon61]

No.
FMA did not follow the manga.
FMAB did.
So none are cannon.

[Bradley]

1.) Oh you're talking about the second time she entered the Avatar state, I see. This entire time I thought you were referring to the first time where she had to use spirit world hax to bring people's bending back which was kind of weak. TBH if you want to count that as her willingly entering the Avatar state that's fine but for now I will chock that up to fan service and PIS. She has had no formal training for entering the Avatar state, and this was probably Dimartino and Konietzko trying to give the fans one more look at the Avatar state before the show went on hiatus, and possibly because the series was so short we didn't get to see it in action that often. Similar to the book 2 preview we don't know the circumstances behind her entering the Avatar state at that moment, she could've been out there for hours meditating. Entering the Avatar state has never been instant. Even Aang who had a natural proclivity to the spirit world and received training had to create an Earth dome to meditate in so he could prep himself in his fight against Ozai, with no context you can't say Korra can do that mid battle.

You're not remembering things in the correct order. What I'm referencing is only time Korra has used the Avatar State. You're referring to the moment where she used energybending (different than the Avatar State, though it apparently causes the same glowing eyes). As for Aang, once he learned to control the Avatar State he was able to do it in the same time it takes to draw a breath. This was shown when he put out the fires after his fight with Ozai; he is also shown quickly activating the Avatar State in the graphic novel "The Promise". This is the same way it was shown to work for Avatar Roku, and it probably works the same way for Korra. Can Mustang nail her with an explosion before she activates the Avatar State? Probably. However, as I've said, Korra can quickly bring up an earth wall to protect her for the moment she needs to activate the Avatar State.

2.) It's not just about getting captured. It's about getting hit. She's been hit by stray weapons or basic attacks numerous times. This is just proof that her reaction feats aren't as stellar as you're making them out to be. A giant robot caught her in a grapple, she didn't just Earthbend a wall in front of her because she wasn't fast enough. It wasn't about her being outnumbered either.

In that specific instance (the confrontation with the Equalist mechs in the episode "The Aftermath") Korra was caught because she was in the middle of another bending move against one mech and another mech caught her from the side. Another advantage that Roy doesn't have.

I'm not arguing that Korra's speed is stellar. Rather, the argument from everyone else is that Mustang's attack speed is too much for her to handle. I've asked for evidence for that point, and no one has yet to provide it.

3.) All you've been doing is asking for the time delay in Roy's attack. Yet it's a question that can't be answered except for the PIS scenario where Ed was dodging his snaps in the 2003 anime no one's shown the ability to react to it. The best examples I can think of are Envy not being able to outrun it or attack before it was used and a feat I'm sure you'll use to your benefit, where Al got up a giant stone wall to shield himself from the explosion a second before Roy lit Lust on fire. However, in the Al scenario Roy was using some makeshift tools for his flame alchemy (no gloves and a lighter for a spark), he announced his arrival, and the explosion wasn't actually targeting Al. But to best answer your question in FMA Brotherhood literally a second after Roy clicked the lighter / snapped his fingers, the explosion occurred. In his fight with Lust the explosions were happening in the same animation as him clicking the lighter. That is much too fast for Korra to react to at close range.

If the question can't be answered, then there is no basis to say that the attacks are too fast for Korra to react to. In Envy's case there are factors in play other than speed: he didn't have the defense options that Korra had, and if he tried running Mustang could just knock him back down with another explosion. The same basically goes for Lust. Korra doesn't need to avoid the explosion; she just needs to raise a defense against it.

Also, the anime (Brotherhood, at least) is not a canon source.

4.) Roy has never demonstrated any sort of agility? He's a solider that survived in a war zone. He wasn't casually strolling through the battlefield. He was moving around in a life or death situation.

That's a non sequitur. What does being in a war zone have to do with his agility, specifically? Is there a scene from the war where he's being agile and physically quick?

Edit:

No.
FMA did not follow the manga.
FMAB did.
So none are cannon.

Sort of. The 2003 anime is canon unto itself. It's essentially an alternate FMA universe. If we're talking about Mustang from the 2003 anime, then of course the 2003 anime could be used to provide feats for him.

[Larry01239]

Dude Bradley, take your fingers and snap them. Now take your arms and move them around imitating a bending move. Which one is faster? Debate over. Go away and stop wanking.

[joon61]

nuff said.

[Bradley]

Dude Bradley, take your fingers and snap them. Now take your arms and move them around imitating a bending move. Which one is faster? Debate over. Go away and stop wanking.

That's not the only part involved in Mustang's attacks. The spark still has to go from his glove to the target.

[joon61]

But when mustang blew up envy's eyes,it was instant.

[Bradley]

But when mustang blew up envy's eyes,it was instant.

Evidence? And even if it was, that's point-blank range. The fight starts at the BG default 50 meters.

[Larry01239]

Evidence?
Boom: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkAv_SMSaks

and this one has distance and speed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enyipxV6ds0

now go away please.

[Bradley]

Boom: *snip*

and this one has distance and speed: *snip*

now go away please.

Anime is not canon. And even then this doesn't definitively show that the attacks are too fast for Korra to react to. The first video shows a clear fireball at 0:29 which takes several seconds to get to Envy that Korra could react to like any firebending blast. And neither fight happens at a range close to 50 meters.

[Larry01239]

Anime is not canon. And even then this doesn't definitively show that the attacks are too fast for Korra to react to. The first video shows a clear fireball at 0:29 which takes several seconds to get to Envy that Korra could react to like any firebending blast. And neither fight happens at a range close to 50 meters.
If anime is not canon then Korra loses because she doesn't exist.

First video 0:11-0:12 Envy's eyes destroyed.

Yeah it is pretty obvious you are a wanking troll.

[Uchiha Sora]

Well Korras tv show is canon since its the original material :lol:

[Bradley]

If anime is not canon then Korra loses because she doesn't exist.

First video 0:11-0:12 Envy's eyes destroyed.

Yeah it is pretty obvious you are a wanking troll.

Legend of Korra isn't even an anime, it's an American cartoon. ;) The anime is not canon for Fullmetal Alchemist because it's not the primary source for FMA, the manga is. Refer to the rules thread:

Canon: You will use the primary canon only: Whatever that maybe you will not utilize non canon material (the DBZ anime) unless specified by OP fiat.

And yeah, Roy burns Envy at 0:11, at point blank range...this does nothing to prove he can hit Korra that fast at 50 meters.

[Uchiha Sora]

From what I've seen, I doubt Korra would lose off the bat, but eventually shed need to get close and shed get raped.

Without the avatar state she's screwed. But apparently she casually uses the avatar state now, According to rumors from the creators. But I guess that's subject to change

[Cult of Personality]

Even with Avatar State she'd die more often than not. AS doesn't make her faster or more durable. It just gives her access to the memories and skills of the previous Avatars.

And in any event, she dies long before she decides to use it.

[Bradley]

Even with Avatar State she'd die more often than not. AS doesn't make her faster or more durable. It just gives her access to the memories and skills of the previous Avatars.

And in any event, she dies long before she decides to use it.

In the Avatar State she could use the same air shield that Aang does, practically the perfect defense against Mustang's alchemy and explosions. And there would be no waiting to decide to use it; BG rules state that combatants will fight to the best of their ability. For Korra, that's activating the Avatar State as quickly as possible.

[Devils Lawyer]

Again Roy is a trained killer with the power to create bombs. He survived a true warzone that was basically hell on earth. Not only that he killed a monster who reactions and power was above a humans. Not only that how does Korea even attack. Before she finishes a full bending movement he blows her up.

[Bradley]

Again Roy is a trained killer with the power to create bombs. He survived a true warzone that was basically hell on earth. Not only that he killed a monster who reactions and power was above a humans. Not only that how does Korea even attack. Before she finishes a full bending movement he blows her up.

What difference does it make if Roy is a trained killer with warzone experience? This isn't a warzone. Korra is a trained martial artist. She's been trained since a very young age to fight. There, just stating random facts about a character doesn't mean it's relevant to the debate.

And you just essentially claimed that Envy (or Lust, could be Lust) has reactions above humans. I'm going to have to ask for feats to prove it.

[joon61]

Well all the humonculus do.
Bradly was real fast and greed was keeping up with him.
Even mustang was keeping up with him somewhat.

[Devils Lawyer]

What difference does it make if Roy is a trained killer with warzone experience? This isn't a warzone. Korra is a trained martial artist. She's been trained since a very young age to fight. There, just stating random facts about a character doesn't mean it's relevant to the debate.

And you just essentially claimed that Envy (or Lust, could be Lust) has reactions above humans. I'm going to have to ask for feats to prove it.

Provide proof of anyone in avatar capable of bending explosions. Provide proof that anyone avatar can react to an explosion at point blank range. Provide proof Korra could perform a bending movement before Roy snaps his fingers. Anything less that means you are just talking out the ass. Also n combustion man doesn't count his explosions doesnt detonate at a point blank range.

Lol at asking above human stats for known monsters of the series. Lol at Avatar.

[Bradley]

Well all the humonculus do.
Bradly was real fast and greed was keeping up with him.
Even mustang was keeping up with him somewhat.

Mustang never fought Wrath or Greed. Saying Envy or Lust have superhuman reflexes is a fallacy of association. Just because one person in a group of individuals has an ability doesn't mean the rest do.

Provide proof of anyone in avatar capable of bending explosions. Provide proof that anyone avatar can react to an explosion at point blank range. Provide proof Korra could perform a bending movement before Roy snaps his fingers. Anything less that means you are just talking out the ass. Also n combustion man doesn't count his explosions doesnt detonate at a point blank range.

Lol at asking above human stats for known monsters of the series. Lol at Avatar.

Anyone in Avatar? Zuko used firebending to stop an explosion from Combustion Man. Aang reacted to an explosion from Combustion Man at point blank range (it did detonate at point blank range, and Aang reacted). The last one is a burden of proof fallacy. Your claim is that Roy's attack with hit Korra before she reacts, therefore the burden of proof is on you to prove it.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

one guy is claiming a character with reaction time barely even with Tim Drake as he was when he was friggen Robin (no scratch that he has better feats than Korra)

is going to take on a dude who can frag metas and bullet timers are weary of him

I'm going to reread this thread later..if I see any evidence of biased debating I'll be issuing sanctions

[Wooster]

Firebenders can protect from explosions. ie when the pirates blew up Zuko's ship and he survived, or when Zuko protected himself from one of Combustion Man's explosions. Korra could also just put out the spark before it reaches the gas pocket, or raise an earth wall in defense.
While I don't know either of the reference material, and simple explosion is different from shock wave caused by a massive heat difference especially one on your person.

Again, I don't know the material. Is it likely for her to even see the spark before it explodes? Going by the posts, it seems that the spark isn't something one would see coming. Again it is on the person, so a defensive wall seems pointless.

[Bradley]

one guy is claiming a character with reaction time barely even with Tim Drake as he was when he was friggen Robin (no scratch that he has better feats than Korra)

is going to take on a dude who can frag metas and bullet timers are weary of him

I'm going to reread this thread later..if I see any evidence of biased debating I'll be issuing sanctions

To me it just seems that people are hyping Roy without any evidence other than his general aura of badassness with his snapping. I mean, I can bring up those who Korra has faced too -- Amon, who reacted at point blank range to bender lightning.

While I don't know either of the reference material, and simple explosion is different from shock wave caused by a massive heat difference especially one on your person.

Again, I don't know the material. Is it likely for her to even see the spark before it explodes? Going by the posts, it seems that the spark isn't something one would see coming. Again it is on the person, so a defensive wall seems pointless.

The explosion I referenced was Aang reacting to the shock wave of the explosion (it's in the ATLA episode "The Beach".) As for the spark, it's visible, so why would it escape Korra's notice? The gasses may be on the person but the spark still has to go from Roy to the person, which an earth wall could stop short.

[Uchiha Sora]

I'm assuming FMA characters are alsopeak humans with special powers, am I right?

[Bradley]

I'm assuming FMA characters are alsopeak humans with special powers, am I right?

That's all anyone has been doing in this thread, assuming Mustang's attacks are too fast for Korra to react to. Assumptions do not prove themselves.

[Rasengan SageX5]

Bradley, the spark from Roy's attack may be visible...but only for a fraction of a second. Nowhere near enough time for Korra to get a defense in place. You say his fight with Envy isn't valid evidence of near instant attacks because Envy has no way to defend himself besides running...but even then the times when he could have seen the attack coming and moved, he didn't have time to do so because he was already on fire. Even if the anime isn't cannon, its the best example of timing for Roy's attack speed since the manga is just still panels and its hard to accurately judge the speed.

[Devils Lawyer]

Mustang never fought Wrath or Greed. Saying Envy or Lust have superhuman reflexes is a fallacy of association. Just because one person in a group of individuals has an ability doesn't mean the rest do.



Anyone in Avatar? Zuko used firebending to stop an explosion from Combustion Man. Aang reacted to an explosion from Combustion Man at point blank range (it did detonate at point blank range, and Aang reacted). The last one is a burden of proof fallacy. Your claim is that Roy's attack with hit Korra before she reacts, therefore the burden of proof is on you to prove it.

Again combustion man explosions are directed blasts not point blank explosions that goes off directly in front of his opponent. His only weakness is if he can't see his opponent. So Korea can bend faster than an individual can snap his finger. Mind you envy a monster with stats above the human condition couldn't react. So yeah I am the one who needs proof.

[Nigoyukai]

I'm assuming FMA characters are alsopeak humans with special powers, am I right?
Roy's peak human and so is Korra. I see that this is going to be a speed debate, and while Roy has been up against characters in the superhuman-speed league, so has she. What this should be coming down to is whether or not Roy can snap dem fingers before Korra can bend whatever and launch it at Roy to kill him.
And it would help if there was some known distance between the two.

[Cult of Personality]

Amon is no more superhuman than Korra is. Nor is Tarrlok.

Snap finger vs wild gesticulations. Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say finger snapping is faster.

Da Rules say that when a distance is not specified by the OP the standard distance is 50 meters.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

say we deposit Korra on top of a moving freight train and green arrow fires close to a hundred arrows point blank in her face in the span of about ten seconds..

Nightwing put Robin through that, and Robin lost his footing and was balancing on one leg..while moving at a hundred miles an arrow and still deflected all of that

Can Korra do the same thing? That's the kind of reaction time you need to give Mustang problems

as it stands..Korra seems to be slower than a 13 year old C list Street level character

[Wooster]

The explosion I referenced was Aang reacting to the shock wave of the explosion (it's in the ATLA episode "The Beach".) As for the spark, it's visible, so why would it escape Korra's notice? The gasses may be on the person but the spark still has to go from Roy to the person, which an earth wall could stop short.
Why would someone put up a stone wall when they see a flicker of light? Remember that is what a spark is.

Not to mention it would have to be an air tight dome to stop it. Stone is not air tight in most cases and dirt is certainly not.
say we deposit Korra on top of a moving freight train and green arrow fires close to a hundred arrows point blank in her face in the span of about ten seconds..

Nightwing put Robin through that, and Robin lost his footing and was balancing on one leg..while moving at a hundred miles an arrow and still deflected all of that

Can Korra do the same thing? That's the kind of reaction time you need to give Mustang problems

as it stands..Korra seems to be slower than a 13 year old C list Street level character
Does the spark move as fast as an arrow?

Or to break it down:
What I am unsure of is this spark moving in the time it takes him to snap or is that jsut the start of it's movment?

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

the spark should move way faster than the arrows, the only variable here is how fast can Roy move his middle finger and thumb

[Wooster]

Then the matter is settled if the speed is only based upon his snapping. The time to snap is maybe a tenth of a second.

Besides these so called bending powers, Korra seems an average human. Can an average human stop a person from snapping at long distance? Even with say an arrow? A gun? No.

She is toast :lol:

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Korra is a bit above average human but she's physically below said C list character and I honestly think Robin would not be able to toss a Batarang at Roy before he blew his head off

[Devils Lawyer]

The entire Avatar verse physical stats are nothing to right home about. That being said fma is not that impressive either. It's above Avatar by a few steps though. Avatar has the reactions og a Chinese martial arts movie fight if that. Roy has the reactions of say of an average manga action character. Which is still above a regular human by far.

[JLI2infinity]

To me it just seems that people are hyping Roy without any evidence other than his general aura of badassness with his snapping. I mean, I can bring up those who Korra has faced too -- Amon, who reacted at point blank range to bender lightning.



The explosion I referenced was Aang reacting to the shock wave of the explosion (it's in the ATLA episode "The Beach".) As for the spark, it's visible, so why would it escape Korra's notice? The gasses may be on the person but the spark still has to go from Roy to the person, which an earth wall could stop short.

Amon is not being debated here. Amon owned Korra's team multiple times and lost via plot devices i.e. Korra conveniently learning air bending after getting beaten and Mako becoming able to resist a technique the original Team Avatar couldn't after a 20+ year time skip of training and experience.

Aang's speed and reaction feats take a dump on Korra's. Aang has demonstrated superhuman speed feats, Korra hasn't, so you can't use any of his feats as a comparison.

No one has been overhyping Roy you've just been asking for evidence for a self-evident feat. Roy snaps, trail occurs, explosion...it's that simple. You keep asking us to give you the time it takes for the trail to reach it's target and that's something that's impossible for us to do because no one's shown the ability to react to the trail. Like I said the only evidence we have of a time delay is Al seeing the spark and raising up a wall to protect himself, but I already told you there are several circumstances that render that feat useless for this Korra debate.

If the question can't be answered, then there is no basis to say that the attacks are too fast for Korra to react to. In Envy's case there are factors in play other than speed: he didn't have the defense options that Korra had, and if he tried running Mustang could just knock him back down with another explosion. The same basically goes for Lust. Korra doesn't need to avoid the explosion; she just needs to raise a defense against it.

It has nothing to do with defensive options he didn't even move before he got his eyes set on fire. Lust and Envy are both deadly at close range so why didn't they even motion to attack? It was because they couldn't even move before getting set on fire. The only time Lust even managed to attack was by moving while being set on fire, something I know Korra doesn't have the mental fortitude to do.

I forget what the logical fallacy is called but you've been doing it this whole debate. If I state something like "The sky is blue" and you say "Well where's your evidence?" I can't really show you anything other than an image of blue and show you how the shades match. Roy snaps and an object ignites, in manga these actions are separated by a panel, in anime these actions are separated by a single animation. Korra's bending takes martial arts movements. At close range, which is where Korra usually fights, she doesn't have time to defend against an attack like that when her moves require more actions than Mustang's.

[joon61]

If i was a mod.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

If i was a mod.

it's getting to that point isn't it?

[joon61]

Yeah.

[Bradley]

say we deposit Korra on top of a moving freight train and green arrow fires close to a hundred arrows point blank in her face in the span of about ten seconds..

Nightwing put Robin through that, and Robin lost his footing and was balancing on one leg..while moving at a hundred miles an arrow and still deflected all of that

Can Korra do the same thing? That's the kind of reaction time you need to give Mustang problems

as it stands..Korra seems to be slower than a 13 year old C list Street level character

That feat has nothing -- absolutely nothing -- to do with Mustang. Why can't you just post a feat for Roy? C'mon, aren't feats supposed to be the most important piece of evidence? So far Roy has no feats that displayed superior, quantifiable attack speed.

Why would someone put up a stone wall when they see a flicker of light? Remember that is what a spark is.

Not to mention it would have to be an air tight dome to stop it. Stone is not air tight in most cases and dirt is certainly not.

Why would it have to be air tight? The earth wall would push Mustang's gas trail out of the way. Mustang hasn't made explosions behind solid objects before. And if Korra has some knowledge of Mustang's abilities she should know to raise a defense if Mustang sends anything at her.

the spark should move way faster than the arrows, the only variable here is how fast can Roy move his middle finger and thumb

Aaaand do you have a feat to support that?

Amon is not being debated here. Amon owned Korra's team multiple times and lost via plot devices i.e. Korra conveniently learning air bending after getting beaten and Mako becoming able to resist a technique the original Team Avatar couldn't after a 20+ year time skip of training and experience.

Amon reacted to bender lightning before (Lightning Bolt Zolt in the third episode). Korra has directly gotten the better of him. That's more of a speed feat than anything Roy has. He hasn't fought Wrath or Greed, and Envy and Lust don't have speed feats of their own.

Aang's speed and reaction feats take a dump on Korra's. Aang has demonstrated superhuman speed feats, Korra hasn't, so you can't use any of his feats as a comparison.

I was asked anyone in Avatar, so I answered.

No one has been overhyping Roy you've just been asking for evidence for a self-evident feat. Roy snaps, trail occurs, explosion...it's that simple. You keep asking us to give you the time it takes for the trail to reach it's target and that's something that's impossible for us to do because no one's shown the ability to react to the trail. Like I said the only evidence we have of a time delay is Al seeing the spark and raising up a wall to protect himself, but I already told you there are several circumstances that render that feat useless for this Korra debate.

Argument from ignorance fallacy. Just because no one has reacted to it does not mean no one can react to it. No non-waterbender has ever resisted bloodbending; does that mean bloodbending would work on anyone without waterbending? Could Tarrlok bloodbend Sloth, or Father? No. Evidence has to be provided that Tarrlok could bloodbend them, because Sloth and Father are capable of feats that no person in Avatar could do. Same with Korra; she has options to react and defend against Roy's alchemy which his opponents never had. You must provide evidence that Roy is fast enough/powerful enough to overcome these defenses.

It has nothing to do with defensive options he didn't even move before he got his eyes set on fire. Lust and Envy are both deadly at close range so why didn't they even motion to attack? It was because they couldn't even move before getting set on fire. The only time Lust even managed to attack was by moving while being set on fire, something I know Korra doesn't have the mental fortitude to do.

Didn't move? Envy was charging toward Mustang. He didn't try to dodge because he wasn't expecting it (he thought Mustang couldn't use his large blasts at close range without killing himself; unfortunately for Envy Roy could do pinpoint strikes). Lust was facing opposite of Roy; she had to turn around to try to attack him and he could blast her before she turned around. Both cases are still at close range, which does not prove Roy could attack too fast for Korra to react at 50 meters.

I forget what the logical fallacy is called but you've been doing it this whole debate. If I state something like "The sky is blue" and you say "Well where's your evidence?" I can't really show you anything other than an image of blue and show you how the shades match. Roy snaps and an object ignites, in manga these actions are separated by a panel, in anime these actions are separated by a single animation. Korra's bending takes martial arts movements. At close range, which is where Korra usually fights, she doesn't have time to defend against an attack like that when her moves require more actions than Mustang's.

Evidence for the sky being blue would obviously be a picture of the sky. Evidence for Roy's spark moving fast would obviously be a statement by a character of how fast it moved, an on-panel time frame of the attack, or his attack hitting a character with the ability to dodge or defend and is known to have superhuman reaction feats. Roy has none of those.

Korra's usual range doesn't matter because the fight starts at 50 meters and according to BG rules Korra will fight to the best of her ability. That means activating the Avatar State as soon as possible, after which Roy really stands no chance.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Hey Bradley you are hereby issued a topic ban for repeates fanwanking biased debating and failing to meet the house standards

You are a very savvy poster and can contribute to a wide range of topics but until October 4 you are not to post in any ATTLA threads failure to adhere to this will result in further sanctions

[Bradley]

EDIT: Did you put some sort of character limit on my posts? Anyways, I'm actually a big FMA fan. I'm not biased; I actually supported Mustang in the Zuko vs Mustang thread.


I haven't broken any rules. I've been civil, courteous, and honest. It seems like you are just trying to shut me up because I don't agree with you and no one has bested me in the argument. But it takes two to tango. If people really want me to stop posting in this thread, just stop giving me posts to reply to. If you are sure of your argument and most everyone agrees, why continue posting anyways?

But really, is it so much of a stretch to think that at 50 meters Korra would have enough time to raise an earth wall and activate the Avatar State, grinding Mustang down shortly thereafter?

[Bradley]

Also maybe I should remind you of the "house rules".

Feats: consistent showings (high end and normal) are the only valid form of evidence- while calculations and other methods of fan interpretation of these feats can be presented in the BG’s nothing trumps consistent feats everything takes else in canon takes a back seat to on panel evidence:

I've simply been asking for feats, and no one has given them.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

BMC seems to vehemently disagree with me yet I'm not topic banning him so that's a cop out

[Bradley]

BMC seems to vehemently disagree with me yet I'm not topic banning him so that's a cop out


You aren't annoyed by BMC's posts. That's essentially what it comes down to. If you choose to be annoyed by me that doesn't mean I've broken any rules. Really, what have I violated? Making an argument that you don't like is not against the rules. If we're not allowed to disagree then the section is pointless.

And is my core argument even that bad? Really, is it impossible for Korra to raise an earth wall at 50 meters from Mustang and then enter the Avatar State? Yes or no?

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

You aren't annoyed by BMC's posts. That's essentially what it comes down to. If you choose to be annoyed by me that doesn't mean I've broken any rules. Really, what have I violated? Making an argument that you don't like is not against the rules. If we're not allowed to disagree then the section is pointless.

And is my core argument even that bad? Really, is it impossible for Korra to raise an earth wall at 50 meters from Mustang and then enter the Avatar State? Yes or no?

Are you seriously..continuing?

dude I'm giving you a chance..do you want to be temp'd?

[Bradley]

Are you seriously..continuing?

dude I'm giving you a chance..do you want to be temp'd?

I'm asking for a real justification for abusing your mod powers to silence me. I haven't broken any rules and you can't even say something is wrong with my argument. Meanwhile Cult of Personality still gets to skulk around the BG. Of course I don't want to be temped, but I'm not going to sit like an obedient dog whose owner is mad that it's barking.

[JLI2infinity]

Argument from ignorance fallacy. Just because no one has reacted to it does not mean no one can react to it. No non-waterbender has ever resisted bloodbending; does that mean bloodbending would work on anyone without waterbending? Could Tarrlok bloodbend Sloth, or Father? No. Evidence has to be provided that Tarrlok could bloodbend them, because Sloth and Father are capable of feats that no person in Avatar could do. Same with Korra; she has options to react and defend against Roy's alchemy which his opponents never had. You must provide evidence that Roy is fast enough/powerful enough to overcome these defenses.



Didn't move? Envy was charging toward Mustang. He didn't try to dodge because he wasn't expecting it (he thought Mustang couldn't use his large blasts at close range without killing himself; unfortunately for Envy Roy could do pinpoint strikes). Lust was facing opposite of Roy; she had to turn around to try to attack him and he could blast her before she turned around. Both cases are still at close range, which does not prove Roy could attack too fast for Korra to react at 50 meters.

Evidence for the sky being blue would obviously be a picture of the sky. Evidence for Roy's spark moving fast would obviously be a statement by a character of how fast it moved, an on-panel time frame of the attack, or his attack hitting a character with the ability to dodge or defend and is known to have superhuman reaction feats. Roy has none of those.

Korra's usual range doesn't matter because the fight starts at 50 meters and according to BG rules Korra will fight to the best of her ability. That means activating the Avatar State as soon as possible, after which Roy really stands no chance.

1.) No, sigh, lol I'm not new to the logical fallacies game. I'm not saying there is no one who could react to Mustang's flame alchemy, just that Envy and Lust couldn't and neither can Korra. I'm saying that time time delay between his snaps and the explosion are too small for Korra to exploit to perform bending (which requires martial arts movements). \

2.) You're asking for evidence that an instant attack is instant. And that was the purpose of my sky example. Roy's attacks occur within the same animation or within one or two panels. When Envy first got hit he was mid-sentence then he got hit mid-sentence AGAIN. Roy wasn't prepping his attacks while Envy was speaking he just snapped his fingers and Envy ignited.

This has been your ENTIRE argument

Opponents: Roy ignites Korra with his instant flame alchemy

You: Show me your evidence that it's instant?

Opponents: Every time Roy's used it, the explosion happens almost exactly when he snaps, no one's reacted to it, every time he snaps the explosion happens at the same time

You: Prove to me that his instant attack is instant?

Opponents: You want us to prove an instant attack is instant? It's in the nature of the attack

That's why there's so much frustration here. That's why IWD wants to ban you from this thread. It's because you keep asking for an explanation of the self-evident. All we can do at this point is give you a definition of instant.

Now at the beginning of this thread I was willing to concede that Korra can possibly react to the attack at 50 meters. Maybe by subtly perceiving a flame trail right after Roy snaps, and thus reacting and countering at the same time that he attacks. That was the only way I had Korra surviving. With a good enough distance and some knowledge she should be able to complete her defense the moment Roy attacks. But you seem to be under the impression that no matter where she is after Roy snaps she can just wave her hands and firebend the trail away when that just doesn't make any sense because of Roy's attack speed. There is hardly any delay. Korra has to move at essentially the same time as he does or she can't stop the attack.

3.) I rewatched the episode just to make sure. What are you talking about? She calmly entered the state? She was sitting there crying and someone appears behind her, she says "Go Away" and then he says "But you called me here" Aang appears and says "You are finally connected with your spiritual self...when we hit our lowest point we are open to the greatest change." Korra's eyes begin to glow and she ascends in a tornado blowing out fire, pulling ice pillars from the ground and summoning tidal waves from the ocean. That was her using the Avatar state. Yes it was epic but no she was not calm and as Aang explicitly stated (and I pointed out earlier) there were special circumstances surrounding her transformation.

Changing a story or leaving out special details necessary for a feat is also grounds for temporary banning from a thread.

[Devils Lawyer]

EDIT: Did you put some sort of character limit on my posts? Anyways, I'm actually a big FMA fan. I'm not biased; I actually supported Mustang in the Zuko vs Mustang thread.


I haven't broken any rules. I've been civil, courteous, and honest. It seems like you are just trying to shut me up because I don't agree with you and no one has bested me in the argument. But it takes two to tango. If people really want me to stop posting in this thread, just stop giving me posts to reply to. If you are sure of your argument and most everyone agrees, why continue posting anyways?

But really, is it so much of a stretch to think that at 50 meters Korra would have enough time to raise an earth wall and activate the Avatar State, grinding Mustang down shortly thereafter?
Actually you lost a long time ago. You haven't provided an instance or a legitimate way Korra could block mustang. You tried to use Al seeing a spark. You failed on multiple levels with that. One that is a feat for Al. Two he knew the mechanics of Mustangs attacks which Korra doesnt. Three the major characters of FMA are faster than Korra. You ask for proof which of this which is asinine. A world where the minor characters uses guns vs a world that doesn't.

Now onto point number 2. The issue at hand is you are using fallacy. If you are going to use it at least don't make it so easy to see someone with down syndrome can notice it. You think of yourself as holding an arguement but you are not.:lol:

Then the final questions. How does Korra block an explosion she knows nothing about? How does Korra perform a full combat sequence faster than Roy snaps his fingers?

[Wooster]

Why would it have to be air tight? The earth wall would push Mustang's gas trail out of the way. Mustang hasn't made explosions behind solid objects before. And if Korra has some knowledge of Mustang's abilities she should know to raise a defense if Mustang sends anything at her.



Read what you just said there. It makes no sense.

But to help you out:
Another name for something not air tight is porous i.e can't push gas.

You need to show that this gal can react to an event faster than a tenth of a second. I doubt you can do that.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

I'm asking for a real justification for abusing your mod powers to silence me. I haven't broken any rules and you can't even say something is wrong with my argument. Meanwhile Cult of Personality still gets to skulk around the BG. Of course I don't want to be temped, but I'm not going to sit like an obedient dog whose owner is mad that it's barking.

CoP may not be the nicest person alive but he isn't wrong and he is calling.you out, you meanwhile have done gymnastics to argue this match- you have downplayed and dismissed and even ignored examples like the drake feat

Simply put- you may have been civil but.your dogged determination to fanwank makes you more guilty

Now take your ass out of this thread are we clear?

[Wooster]

Awe, but I want to see his answer to my porous wall posit.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Awe, but I want to see his answer to my porous wall posit.

it'll be a very articulate wall of denial of course

but knowing him he'll do it any way

[Wooster]

Although true be told, I am sure most writers would assume a wall blocks gas.

But that hardly matters because it does not seems she can do anything in a tenth of a second, or, I assume, he would have shown an example.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Although true be told, I am sure most writers would assume a wall blocks gas.

But that hardly matters because it does not seems she can do anything in a tenth of a second, or, I assume, he would have shown an example.

the funny part is..in canon alchemists have thrown walls up to defend against Mustangs blasts..it only works when you're not the target and hiding from being collateral damage :lol: Roy has shown to be able to just plow through them as an after thought if he feels so inclined.. :lol:

having seen the entire series both of them I can say no he has no such example..Korra has abysmal reaction time by even original series standards

someone as fast as Azula or Katara couldn't handle Roy Korra who is basically a bruiser doesn't have a prayer

[Wooster]

the funny part is..in canon alchemists have thrown walls up to defend against Mustangs blasts..it only works when you're not the target and hiding from being collateral damage :lol: Roy has shown to be able to just plow through them as an after thought if he feels so inclined.. :lol:

having seen the entire series both of them I can say no he has no such example..Korra has abysmal reaction time by even original series standards

someone as fast as Azula or Katara couldn't handle Roy Korra who is basically a bruiser doesn't have a prayer
But that makes sense. At that point you are protecting yourself from the blast, not the gas.
Well, there is the feat that means putting up a wall is pointless :lol:

I don't think it is unreasonable point. Assuming Roy can snap like every other human is standard. A spark moving along a gas trail is extremely fast at least faster than a snap. If you don't believe this, light a match in a room full of natural gas.
If you can't move faster than the snap, you aren't moving faster than the spark.

[Bradley]

1.) No, sigh, lol I'm not new to the logical fallacies game. I'm not saying there is no one who could react to Mustang's flame alchemy, just that Envy and Lust couldn't and neither can Korra. I'm saying that time time delay between his snaps and the explosion are too small for Korra to exploit to perform bending (which requires martial arts movements).

"You keep asking us to give you the time it takes for the trail to reach it's target and that's something that's impossible for us to do because no one's shown the ability to react to the trail."

You acted like the detail that no one has reacted Roy's attacks is an excuse to not show the time it takes for the trail to reach its target. And you still insist that Korra can't react to it based on that. That's an argument from ignorance fallacy. You are continuing to ignore the fact that Korra has different defense options than Lust and Envy which would allow her to defend against Roy's blasts.

2.) You're asking for evidence that an instant attack is instant. And that was the purpose of my sky example. Roy's attacks occur within the same animation or within one or two panels. When Envy first got hit he was mid-sentence then he got hit mid-sentence AGAIN. Roy wasn't prepping his attacks while Envy was speaking he just snapped his fingers and Envy ignited.

This has been your ENTIRE argument

Opponents: Roy ignites Korra with his instant flame alchemy

You: Show me your evidence that it's instant?

Opponents: Every time Roy's used it, the explosion happens almost exactly when he snaps, no one's reacted to it, every time he snaps the explosion happens at the same time

You: Prove to me that his instant attack is instant?

Opponents: You want us to prove an instant attack is instant? It's in the nature of the attack

That's why there's so much frustration here. That's why IWD wants to ban you from this thread. It's because you keep asking for an explanation of the self-evident. All we can do at this point is give you a definition of instant.It's...not self-evident. You are using circular reasoning. I am asking for evidence that the attack is instant, and it's not a defense to just reply "Because it's instant". I mean, could I say that Korra's instant bending is instant? If you challenge me on it, do I get to say that Korra's instant bending is self-evident so I don't have to defend it? No. It's not self-evident, and neither is Roy's attack.

Now at the beginning of this thread I was willing to concede that Korra can possibly react to the attack at 50 meters. Maybe by subtly perceiving a flame trail right after Roy snaps, and thus reacting and countering at the same time that he attacks. That was the only way I had Korra surviving. With a good enough distance and some knowledge she should be able to complete her defense the moment Roy attacks. But you seem to be under the impression that no matter where she is after Roy snaps she can just wave her hands and firebend the trail away when that just doesn't make any sense because of Roy's attack speed. There is hardly any delay. Korra has to move at essentially the same time as he does or she can't stop the attack.No, my argument is that Korra could have a chance to react at 50 meters. If she was as close as, say, Envy, she probably wouldn't be able to react.

3.) I rewatched the episode just to make sure. What are you talking about? She calmly entered the state? She was sitting there crying and someone appears behind her, she says "Go Away" and then he says "But you called me here" Aang appears and says "You are finally connected with your spiritual self...when we hit our lowest point we are open to the greatest change." Korra's eyes begin to glow and she ascends in a tornado blowing out fire, pulling ice pillars from the ground and summoning tidal waves from the ocean. That was her using the Avatar state. Yes it was epic but no she was not calm and as Aang explicitly stated (and I pointed out earlier) there were special circumstances surrounding her transformation.

Changing a story or leaving out special details necessary for a feat is also grounds for temporary banning from a thread.Speaking of leaving out details, you just left out the details that as Aang was speaking, Korra was smiling (thus, she was not sad anymore), Aang used energybending on Korra, and that Korra has a very calm expression as she entered the Avatar State. There may have been special circumstances, but then I refer to the moment in the book 2 preview where she activates the Avatar State at will. Either then or sometime afterward she learns to control the Avatar State.

Actually you lost a long time ago. You haven't provided an instance or a legitimate way Korra could block mustang. You tried to use Al seeing a spark. You failed on multiple levels with that. One that is a feat for Al. Two he knew the mechanics of Mustangs attacks which Korra doesnt. Three the major characters of FMA are faster than Korra. You ask for proof which of this which is asinine. A world where the minor characters uses guns vs a world that doesn't.

Um...what is this Al seeing a spark that you speak of? I never brought it up.

Now onto point number 2. The issue at hand is you are using fallacy. If you are going to use it at least don't make it so easy to see someone with down syndrome can notice it. You think of yourself as holding an arguement but you are not.:lol:...what fallacy?

Then the final questions. How does Korra block an explosion she knows nothing about? How does Korra perform a full combat sequence faster than Roy snaps his fingers?She has basic knowledge of Roy's explosions as per BG rules. And the issue is not that she can do bending faster than Roy snaps his fingers; it's that she can do bending faster than Roy snaps his fingers and the spark trail takes to go 50 meters.
Read what you just said there. It makes no sense.

But to help you out:
Another name for something not air tight is porous i.e can't push gas.

A non-airtight object can interact with gas. Try waving a cloth fan in your face. Is the cloth airtight? No. Does it still blow wind in your face? Yes.

So while gas might be able to seep through an earth wall, the gas trail from Roy's alchemy would still be disturbed if Korra were to raise an earth wall in the middle of it. In order for Roy to hit Korra with an explosion behind the wall, there would need to be enough uninterrupted water vapor inside the wall to create a continuous strand of hydrogen and oxygen gas for the spark to travel along. To my knowledge, Roy has never shown the ability to do such a thing. It would be really simple though if you could find a feat of Roy causing an explosion behind a large solid object.

You need to show that this gal can react to an event faster than a tenth of a second. I doubt you can do that.You need to prove that Roy can snap and the spark can travel 50 meters faster than a tenth of a second first before I have to show Korra can react in that time.

CoP may not be the nicest person alive but he isn't wrong and he is calling.you out, you meanwhile have done gymnastics to argue this match- you have downplayed and dismissed and even ignored examples like the drake feat

Drake feat? What?

Simply put- you may have been civil but.your dogged determination to fanwank makes you more guiltyI'm just as big a fan of FMA as I am of Avatar. I love Roy, I just don't agree with the wank he gets from other FMA fans. Your accusations are false.

the funny part is..in canon alchemists have thrown walls up to defend against Mustangs blasts..it only works when you're not the target and hiding from being collateral damage :lol: Roy has shown to be able to just plow through them as an after thought if he feels so inclined.. :lol:

Example?

having seen the entire series both of them I can say no he has no such example..Korra has abysmal reaction time by even original series standardsAs I mentioned before, Korra was able to fight Amon, who has reacted to bender lightning from Lightning Bolt Zolt at point blank range.

http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx359/GeneralIroh/amonlightning.png
someone as fast as Azula or Katara couldn't handle Roy Korra who is basically a bruiser doesn't have a prayerIIRC I argued that Katara beat Roy as well, thanks to bloodbending. Maybe that deserves a round 2, Tarrlok or Amon vs. Mustang. ;)

[Larry01239]

Ban time?

[Konoha'sGreenThunder]

No. Regardless of whether anyone here thinks Bradley is wanking, a bad debater, or whatever else has been said, he's legitimately debating, not flaming, not trolling, not being an idiot. Disagreeing doesn't warrant a ban. That's the whole point of this section.

[Devils Lawyer]

[Quote]Um...what is this Al seeing a spark that you speak of? I never brought it up.
Then what us your basis for claiming Korra can block explosions. She has no feats to support your claim.

.



She has basic knowledge of Roy's explosions as per BG rules. And the issue is not that she can do bending faster than Roy snaps his fingers; it's that

Basic knowledge not full. Not does she have experience against the attack. Yes the issue is
her reaction speed. There is no other issue otherwise she would be stronger.

[Larry01239]

No. Regardless of whether anyone here thinks Bradley is wanking, a bad debater, or whatever else has been said, he's legitimately debating, not flaming, not trolling, not being an idiot. Disagreeing doesn't warrant a ban. That's the whole point of this section.
Then what was this for?
Hey Bradley you are hereby issued a topic ban for repeates fanwanking biased debating and failing to meet the house standards

You are a very savvy poster and can contribute to a wide range of topics but until October 4 you are not to post in any ATTLA threads failure to adhere to this will result in further sanctions

[Bradley]

No. Regardless of whether anyone here thinks Bradley is wanking, a bad debater, or whatever else has been said, he's legitimately debating, not flaming, not trolling, not being an idiot. Disagreeing doesn't warrant a ban. That's the whole point of this section.

Thank you.

Then what us your basis for claiming Korra can block explosions. She has no feats to support your claim.

A simple earth wall is capable of blocking explosions.

Basic knowledge not full. Not does she have experience against the attack. Yes the issue is
her reaction speed. There is no other issue otherwise she would be stronger.

Somehow I didn't finish that sentence and had to edit it. My point was that the issue isn't that Korra has to react before Mustang snaps; she has to react before Mustang snaps and the spark trail travels 50 meters. There's no evidence that the spark trail can reach her before she can get an earth wall up.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

No. Regardless of whether anyone here thinks Bradley is wanking, a bad debater, or whatever else has been said, he's legitimately debating, not flaming, not trolling, not being an idiot. Disagreeing doesn't warrant a ban. That's the whole point of this section.

Everything else he is doing does wanking here is a crine

You aren't a BG mod I'd appreciate if you followed the orders of the quasi's and stayed out of how we do thinga

[Konoha'sGreenThunder]

I'd appreciate it if you didn't bully users. What's the point of debating if you ban everyone who doesn't agree with you from threads on account of 'wanking'?

If it's so obvious that Roy wins, why did you make the thread?

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Thread banned Bradley for reapedly ignoring orders to cease wanking and posting on a topic he had been ordered off

[Larry01239]

What's the point of debating if you ban everyone who doesn't agree with you from threads on account of 'wanking'?
The problem with that is he is wanking and it is blatantly obvious. And if you can't see that you really shouldn't be posting in this section.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

I'd appreciate it if you didn't bully users. What's the point of debating if you ban everyone who doesn't agree with you from threads on account of 'wanking'?

If it's so obvious that Roy wins, why did you make the thread?

Are you seriously doing this pro PBS crap after you were told to stay out?

Do you have any idea what consitutes trolling on this section?

Disagreements are fine wanking is not being biased and ignoring evidence is.not

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

The problem with that is he is wanking and it is blatantly obvious. And if you can't see that you really shouldn't be posting in this section.

Larry take it easy that's an S mod give us a minute buddy

[Larry01239]

Larry take it easy that's an S mod give us a minute buddy
Sure thing =D

[Konoha'sGreenThunder]

I'm pro not being a jerk to people. I don't care about the wanking stuff, everyone in this section says that in every thread. Just that people are being banned from threads when they are making a legitimate effort to contribute.

[ILIKEPIE]

All Avatar vs Fma threads should be banned until the ban is removed by the bg staff


these threads are causing problems right now and a ban of these verses fighting eachother is the only way I can think of that can remove the problem at this time.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

I'm pro not being a jerk to people. I don't care about the wanking stuff, everyone in this section says that in every thread. Just that people are being banned from threads when they are making a legitimate effort to contribute.

I really don't care what you are in favor of I only care about.your utter lack of understandkng of why wanking is bad!

You wanna post as a member fine but unless something changed within 24 hours your disobeying an order.not to meddle in how we do things

[Konoha'sGreenThunder]

....An order? Okay, yeah.

My opinion stands the same.

This thread has been derailed enough, anyway.

[Bradley]

Are you seriously doing this pro PBS crap after you were told to stay out?

Do you have any idea what consitutes trolling on this section?

Disagreements are fine wanking is not being biased and ignoring evidence is.not

Well let's see:

Trolling: can come in a variety of forms biased debating and fanboyism is one of those forms: You are welcome to be a fan of a series but when you start embellishing that series and downplaying others you become a problem not just for the member base but for the staff as well.

I'm not being biased, as I like Fullmetal Alchemist as much as Avatar/Legend of Korra (I own the 2003 DVDs, the first half of the Brotherhood blu-rays, and will buy the second half when I get the money). I haven't embellished any feats for Korra. I am open to Roy having the speed everyone claims if there are feats to back it up, which is another key BG rule:

[quote=The Immortal Watch Dog]Feats: consistent showings (high end and normal) are the only valid form of evidence- while calculations and other methods of fan interpretation of these feats can be presented in the BG

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

All Avatar vs Fma threads should be banned until the ban is removed by the bg staff


these threads are causing problems right now and a ban of these verses fighting eachother is the only way I can think of that can remove the problem at this time.

The only issue I have with this is it kinda craps on everyone elses ability to debate two universes that are pretty close

One or two bad apples shouldn't ruin the barrel

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

....An order? Okay, yeah.

My opinion stands the same.

This thread has been derailed enough, anyway.

That's lovely are you guys trying to create another tbc style fiasco?

Stay out of officiating

[Devils Lawyer]

Thank you.



A simple earth wall is capable of blocking explosions.

That she has to make before she goes boom.



Somehow I didn't finish that sentence and had to edit it. My point was that the issue isn't that Korra has to react before Mustang snaps; she has to react before Mustang snaps and the spark trail travels 50 meters. There's no evidence that the spark trail can reach her before she can get an earth wall up.

Bro the spark moves at the speed of sound hence snap boom. Not the attack but the spark.

[Nigoyukai]

So all is aware that Korra has no defense against spontaneous eye combustion?

[Wooster]

A non-airtight object can interact with gas. Try waving a cloth fan in your face. Is the cloth airtight? No. Does it still blow wind in your face? Yes.

So while gas might be able to seep through an earth wall, the gas trail from Roy's alchemy would still be disturbed if Korra were to raise an earth wall in the middle of it. In order for Roy to hit Korra with an explosion behind the wall, there would need to be enough uninterrupted water vapor inside the wall to create a continuous strand of hydrogen and oxygen gas for the spark to travel along. To my knowledge, Roy has never shown the ability to do such a thing. It would be really simple though if you could find a feat of Roy causing an explosion behind a large solid object.

You need to prove that Roy can snap and the spark can travel 50 meters faster than a tenth of a second first before I have to show Korra can react in that time.



And you have selaed your fate. Does the cloth remove most of the air? Nope, meaning the cloth does not stop the air from passing through it, meaning gas passes through, finally meaning a small interation would not be enough to stop the gas nor a spark following the gas. This is how gases and explosions work. You would have to prove the girls walls is something besides this.

The rest of your arguement at this point falls apart, moving on.

A standard human can snap at in a tenth of second(in fact you couldn't snap if you try to do it slower) a spark moves a bit faster than sound(why there are shock waves in an explosion). There are no feats that counter standard physics, so we MUST assume this is the speed.

And I see you avoid providing any proof this girl can move faster than a tenth of second? Why is that?

[joon61]

This has gotten way out of hand!!

[shinigan no sora]

Hey here's something noones thot of:

WHAT'S STOPPING ROY FROM BLOWING UP THE FIRETRUCKING WALLL!!!!
And then frying her?

[Bradley]

Just going to clarify one thing.

Hey here's something noones thot of:

WHAT'S STOPPING ROY FROM BLOWING UP THE FIRETRUCKING WALLL!!!!
And then frying her?

Nothing, actually. Roy could blow up the wall. My point is not that the wall somehow prevents Roy from hurting Korra at all; the wall just buys Korra time that she can use to enter the Avatar State. And then Korra would be protected by an air sphere and be able to smash Roy with impunity.

Oh and Wooster, the ignition of Roy's spark trail is the gas combusting, not exploding. It doesn't move at the speed of sound. A burning log is not an exploding log. So no, there is still no evidence of the spark trail moving too fast for Korra to react to at 30 meters.

I guess I clarified two things. Whatever.

[shinigan no sora]

^no not really.

And how is she going to enter AS if she's beenripped apart by her own wall's shrapnel?

Not to mention she has practically zero feats in avatar state besides a fire work show and returning lin's bending

[Bradley]

The Avatar State gives the Avatar the skills and knowledge of all the past Avatars. Essentially, she would be capable of any feat a past Avatar has done (the greatest of which is Avatar Kyoshi moving a whole island).

[Cult of Personality]

Wasn't Bradley told not to post on this thread at some point? :hmm

Seems like a pretty clear cut case. Trolling, wanking, ignoring direct orders from the mods. Why hasn't it been banned? :hmm

Anyway, Roy snaps his fingers before Korra can do anything.

[Nigoyukai]

The Avatar State gives the Avatar the skills and knowledge of all the past Avatars. Essentially, she would be capable of any feat a past Avatar has done (the greatest of which is Avatar Kyoshi moving a whole island).
Eventually... maybe... possibly.

[shinigan no sora]

The Avatar State gives the Avatar the skills and knowledge of all the past Avatars. Essentially, she would be capable of any feat a past Avatar has done (the greatest of which is Avatar Kyoshi moving a whole island).

Only after mastering it. I don't recall aang moving mountains or anything as substantial with the other elements after his first AS activation.

Basically there are 5 parts to avatar training:

Achieving control of the four elements and mastering the avatar state

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Bradley take your ass out of this topic now and you are now at a two month ban from discussing the abatarverse

Disobey this and you will be dealt with

[Wooster]

Oh and Wooster, the ignition of Roy's spark trail is the gas combusting, not exploding. It doesn't move at the speed of sound. A burning log is not an exploding log. So no, there is still no evidence of the spark trail moving too fast for Korra to react to at 30 meters.

I guess I clarified two things. Whatever.You are confusing my illustration with my statement, then applying to a example in which it does not apply. Solids are not gases.

That is not how gases work. The log needs to be warmed up to a 451 F, which is not the speed of the chemical reaction.

The reaction dynamism are the same in the trail and the end, meaning the speed is the same
The only difference is that the trail is a small amount forming an excess of fast moving gas that only heats the area i.e the spark. The final explosion occurs due to the larger quantity of excess gas formed in a region that does not let it expand fast enough, thus, the explosion.

Why is there a spark? Gases colliding with each other and then provide enough energy to continue the reaction to a new region of space. How fast do these gases move? No slower than the average speed they started with. The reaction likely forms gases moving much faster than the ambient gases, those gases running into the other gases provides the energy to create light and heat i.e a spark. This spark will move at about the average speed of these gases, which incidentally, is the speed of sound. The spark signifies regions of higher energy which will consume the fuel in the trail leading to the final explosive destination.

What mixtures of gases make an explosion or only make light are not our concern, only the the speed of the chemical reaction. We know it is fast as it can explode. So the spark does move near the speed of sound

[JLI2infinity]

The Avatar State gives the Avatar the skills and knowledge of all the past Avatars. Essentially, she would be capable of any feat a past Avatar has done (the greatest of which is Avatar Kyoshi moving a whole island).


Ok IWD now has a right to ban you for the reasons I specified before. What Bradley himself cited under trolling. Embellishing a feat from a series while ignoring special circumstances...IWD and the other S-mod who was debating for Bradley...please read this exchange and understand why Bradley is wanking...

This was my first challenge to his notion that Korra can calmly, willingly enter the Avatar State...

I rewatched the episode just to make sure. What are you talking about? She calmly entered the state? She was sitting there crying and someone appears behind her, she says "Go Away" and then he says "But you called me here" Aang appears and says "You are finally connected with your spiritual self...when we hit our lowest point we are open to the greatest change." Korra's eyes begin to glow and she ascends in a tornado blowing out fire, pulling ice pillars from the ground and summoning tidal waves from the ocean. That was her using the Avatar state. Yes it was epic but no she was not calm and as Aang explicitly stated (and I pointed out earlier) there were special circumstances surrounding her transformation.

Changing a story or leaving out special details necessary for a feat is also grounds for temporary banning from a thread.


Bradley responded...
Speaking of leaving out details, you just left out the details that as Aang was speaking, Korra was smiling (thus, she was not sad anymore), Aang used energybending on Korra, and that Korra has a very calm expression as she entered the Avatar State. There may have been special circumstances, but then I refer to the moment in the book 2 preview where she activates the Avatar State at will. Either then or sometime afterward she learns to control the Avatar State.

-___- The catalyst for Korra entering the state was that she was extremely depressed, a fact I pointed out and Bradley incorrectly rebuked twice, thus making me think it wasn't a valid feat for this thread, until I looked it up. She started smiling because Aang was there to put her into the Avatar state! She was already in the process of transforming when she became happy, what Bradley did was an obvious attempt to turn the charge back on me but the detail I left out is irrelevant.

And I already explained that you can't use feats from a book 2 preview without knowing the circumstances behind those either. Therefore citing the promo as canon isn't acceptable evidence. I could see a commercial where Roy stands in an open space, focuses and then lights a skyscraper on fire but then I watch the episode and see that the building got doused in gasoline. Point is until book 2 comes out it's useless.

Anyways to both the mods I assume this will be adequate evidence. Bradley, I think you're an awesome debater and like IWD said you can definitely contribute throughout these forums, but you are obviously biased by this topic. And in case you wish to accuse me of bias, I actually don't really care about the FM franchise in general, I never found it that interesting and kept up with it more as a fan of manga and anime than as a fan of the series.

[Vatanui AKA Pride]

Nine pages ... oh dear lawd.

[Wooster]

Less than five for me

[Uchiha Sora]

How casually does Roy use his snap move?

He could just keep snapping his fingers.. :lol:

Avatar state is generally OoC anyways

[BMC1994]

Wow i have been gone for too long O.o (j/k but there are alot of responses :p)

There are way to much post to quote reply them all so i am just going to answer the general arguments for Roy. (Seriously Roy could win this but it is certainly not a stomp he is no more then a above avarage human glass cannon and a city block busetr at his best and thats with a philosophers stone while korra at her best is atleast a large village / City Buster( which would not be far fetched considering the abilty to move islands.))

Speed:
Boom:
and this one has distance and speed:
now go away please.

1.That is not even close to 50 meters.
2.Roy first swings his entire arm which results in the explosion and snap sound the swing not being any faster then the a swing a bender would make to bend.

Both Korra and Roy are Peak Humans. Roy doesnt have any feats that make him way beyond korras speed.

Regarding the speed of roys opponents he has never fought anyone particulairy fast in any of his canon fights. Out of the homunculus sloth is the one with super human speed. Envy himself has shown nothing that surpasses peak human.

But when mustang blew up envy's eyes,it was instant.
The statement that any kind of chemical reaction (which includes roys attacks) is borderline retarded. Chemistry, learn it. Here is one basic rule.

NO CHEMICAL REACTION IN THE ENTIRE WORLD IS INSTANT

Only attacks inheritly instant or involving space-time manipulation can be truly called instant.
This all is already besides the fact that roy has never shown the ability to tag someone with his explosions on his own (the hawkeye instance is irrelevant because hawkeye is not a part of this fight) from 50 meters without a philosophers stone.

In short: He never Fries his opponents (on his own) from any distance larger then about 10 meters max. His flames need to travel a far larger distance giving korra more time to react to his attacks then roys unfortunate opponents.

As for Korra reacting to flames to teh face she could do it point blank with the flames from two fire benders and that was in the first episode before pro/bending training etc.
And no Roys Flames arent any different then the flames fire benders produce.

Want more? Roy vs Lust. Lust attacks roy before he can snap his fingers. Lust not having instantaneous speed makes his speed not instantaneous.

Roy vs Envy:
Roys snaps seem to be accompanied by a swinging of his arm before the explosion the same swing a bender makes.

Stuff:

WHAT'S STOPPING ROY FROM BLOWING UP THE FIRETRUCKING WALLL!!!!
And then frying her?

Entering the avatar state and splitting the ground beneath him.
And yes she does get this feat because she gains all knowledge and the skill of previous avatars. Its a mechanism you or someone else agreeing/disagreeing with it doesnt change the fact that korra gains all knowledge and skill of previous lifes. This is besides the famous 50m argument which has been blatently ignored or disputed with no kind of evidence.


Stuff that should be known before you start debating:

Again Roy is a trained killer with the power to create bombs.

A perfect example about lacking knowledge about a verse you would be defending.
Kimblee creates bombs not roy. Again knowledge that should be possesed before you start debating.

Probably the response to the above is going to be something like:

'Korra has never done anything like that is it was kyoshi.'
For that i am just going to quote this which will remove any doubt about it.


This is what Roku says to Aang in the episode "The Avatar State":
"The Avatar state is a defense mechanism, designed to empower you with the skills and knowledge of all the past Avatars. The glow is the combination of all your past lives, focusing their energy through your body."


Translation: Korra gains all feats(skills) of her previous lifes when entering the avatar state. This is a inherent trait of the state regardless of you agreeing/disagreeing with it.
On Korra and the Avatar State:

Korra mastered the avatar state at the end of book one in the final episode.
This is signified by the momentairly glow of the eyes instead of a continuous glow which korra displayed in the final episode. You can also see this difference in sozin comet:Part 4. Where both the contineous and the momentairly glow are shown.
Ill dig up the episode if u need a source but i shouldnt be spoonfeeding u knowledge about basic mechanisms in a verse which you should have to debate it.

Summary: (You are free to prove me otherwise)
Roy cant hit someone (Probably not even see) from 50 meters on his own with his flames.
Roy are NOT instantaneous.
Roys Snaps ARE Interruptable.
Korra has dealed with direct fire point range before in the first episode.
Roy has no relevant dodging feats.
Roy Also Swings his arms before conbustion actually takes place making close to bending speed.

Korra:

Can enter the Avatar State At will.
Has a wider arsenal of attacks.
Has mastered the avatar state and can willfully enter it.
Gains all feats(skills) of his previous life while in avatar state which includes spillting off islands and propelling said island with wind.

Korra simply enters the avatar state gets roy wet and its game over.


I'd like to know how Oman thinks Korra can defend from having the air in her lungs exploded

And korra just bends all the water out of Roy(Not bloodbending)

- lets please not go to the dark cemetary of baseless statements and concentrate on facts.

[shinigan no sora]

No she most certainly cannot enter it willingly and again you don't enter the avatar state once and automatically gain all avatar feats and definitely not the knowledge either.

Just like was shown with aang he had to work on the avatar state and that took awhile.

The avata state is the spiritual aspect of. Bending which IIRC is korra's weakest(part of the reason she had so much trouble with air bending) therefore if korra DOES have full control of the avatar state at present it is a clear cut case of PIS and is therefore inadmissable in debates as it conflicts with precedent story points to an obscene degree

[Cult of Personality]

A perfect example about lacking knowledge about a verse you would be defending.
Kimblee creates bombs not roy. Again knowledge that should be possesed before you start debating.Splitting hairs.

Korra mastered the avatar state at the end of book one in the final episode.Haha, no. All she did was unlock it. She no more mastered it than Aang did at any point prior to his fight with Ozai. When she displays the same mastery that Aang did then you might have something. Otherwise you're wanking just as much as Bradley was.

Restoring Lin's bending was more akin to Roku in Aang's body at the Summer Solstice.

Has a wider arsenal of attacks.
Quality > quantity. Even if Roy doesn't have as wide a skill set as Korra does, his alchemy takes a big smelly dump on anything she's ever accomplished.

Gains all feats(skills) of his previous life while in avatar state which includes spillting off islands and propelling said island with wind.
While she's busy going all Avatar-y Roy snaps his fingers and she dies.


Korra simply enters the avatar state gets roy wet and its game over.I can't see any reason to assume Korra would try this tactic.

And korra just bends all the water out of Roy(Not bloodbending) If it were that simple to bend water in the body instead of specifically blood then bloodbending wouldn't be such a big deal.

[Makoto Cifer]

My thoughts are as follows:

Mustangs attacks aren't instantaneous, however they are proven to be extremely fast in the fight with Envy of the Brotherhood series. He can attack specific point of the body, eyes, mouth, ears, etc. The initial spark manifested in less than three seconds and Envy didn't have adequate time to react. Therefore, mustang wins.

That said, it wasn't specified whether of not these character had any knowledge of eachother. From that, we can assume that Korra doesn't know about the disadvantage of Mustangs Alchemy.

[BMC1994]

what happened to most of my post :S

[joon61]

nine pages ... Oh dear lawd.ikr.
Shm

[Shikamaru Nara]

what happened to most of my post :S

Looks like something broke your post. I fixed it. My apologies.

[Wooster]

You know, if Bradley really did violate the wanking rule, wouldn't it have been easy to lock this thread? The Adminstration would have taken no notice then.

*shrugs*

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

You know, if Bradley really did violate the wanking rule, wouldn't it have been easy to lock this thread? The Adminstration would have taken no notice then.

*shrugs*

Because others were posting good arguments- we shouldn't have to punish everyone out of fear of staff prejudice

Bradley deserved to be punished- wankers now have special protection apparently

[Wooster]

But the thread was decided, essentially. Everyone was just telling Bradley why he was wrong :lol:

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

But the thread was decided, essentially. Everyone was just telling Bradley why he was wrong :lol:

Wasn't BMC still in the fight? Incorrect maybe but he wasn't violating any rules and did make great posts- was under the impression Korra had a few non dishonest defenders

[Wooster]

I thought BMC gave up the ghost? I don't know.

Anyway, after my physics arguments, no opposition remained :cool:

[BMC1994]

Decided to lay low until my post was fixed so here i am again.

This post will be more about korra and her ability to use the avatar state then the debate itself but its something that i want to get out of the way.

"The Avatar State is a defense mechanism, designed to empower you with the skills and knowledge of all the past Avatars. The glow is the combination of all your past lives, focusing their energy through your body. In the Avatar State, you are at your most powerful, but you are also at your most vulnerable. If you are killed in the Avatar State, the reincarnation cycle will be broken and the Avatar will cease to exist." — Roku to Aang in "The Avatar State".

^the above quote is literally from the animation and is not interpreted in anyway.

You may say skills =/= abilities. But the feats for the state are there as they HAVE given the airbender abilities he did not possess at the time he went into the unmastered version of the state.

But here is a literal feat easily showing that the avatar gains the abilities of his past life while in the avatar state even when not directly channeling an avatar like roku or kyoshi.

In the book 2 episode 1 the episode where aang was forced into the avatar state.

First we can all agree that aang could not earth bend or atleast did not have any knowledge of the more powerfull earthbending techniques since he did NOT meet his bending master toph at this point.

Now that the above is established when aang was forced into the avatar state he performed to higly advanced earth bending technique that he has not displayed before this event or even with the same kind of power after this event.

This being the 'dust tornado' around himself he uses to levitate.

And the giant stomp to the ground essentially wrecking the whole earth kingdom military base.

There is NO way for aang to have known these techniques and even if he did he could not have performed with such power at that point in time.

Still not convinced lets establish a timeline.

First Twelve years studied at the air temple mastered 35 tiers of bending and he became a master airbender even though he did not learn the 36th tier.

After those twelve years he spent 100 years in a ice berg in which he obviously could have never learned such earth bending displayed in book 2 episode one.

The only occasion he could have learnt any kind of earth bending was during his visit of omashu but it STILL wouldnt be at the scale and power of what he displayed in the concerning episode because

1. Earth is his antogonising element he still had trouble at the time he met toph meaning he had not overcome this at this point.

2. It was a quite young bumi who probably wasnt even near his prime earth bending.

^the above should finally clear all the nonsense that korra wouldnt gains her predeccors abilties. Because both the series have feats saying the opposite (aangs premature earth bending, korras energybending even though she is as spiritual as a hamster)

I have to leave for trainign now so i cant prove at this moment why korra has mastered this state but i will when i come back. so for now the best i can do is leave u with a wiki quote (yes i know wiki iz not zeh teh truthdhfhhrghujdfgh 1111!!!eleven)

When the State is used non-continuously, the Avatar's eyes, and tattoos in the case of an Air Nomad Avatar, glow only for a second, and during that time the current Avatar stores the knowledge and energy needed within himself so that he can release it once he exits the state, taking only the power needed for a specific task. This reduces the danger of being killed in the Avatar State and enables a more willful, controlled use of the Avatar State's power. This can only be done by an Avatar who has mastered the State as it is a conscious use rather than an instinctual response. Mastery of this technique is part of what distinguishes an Avatar as "Fully Realized".

[Cult of Personality]

That's fascinating. No one cares.

For Korra to have completely mastered the Avatar State because OMGZORZ I ISZ TEH SAD it would have to contradict Guru Pathik's explanation of the necessary steps to mastering it and should therefore be given no greater acknowledgement than Sasuke's Great Snake Escape, or pretty much any other victory Sasuke has ever had. It's rank Deus Ex Machina and has no place in a serious debate.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

If it contradicts established canon you cannot use it in debates here

Do you have a counter?

[BMC1994]

Good argument but its quite easy to point out that gurus pathiks explantion is far from absolute and has been defied in its own series.

Just off the top off my head.
Aang himself did not play by the rules.
He never did completely let go of his feelings for katara (even went as far to marry and do his 'thing' with her) yet he somehow went around this and unlocked his final chakra vs ozai.

And basicly any other avatar other then aang defied guru pathiks explanation because 1 they COULDNT have all possibly have known him. Otherwise we would have seen him at some point in rokus flashback.

Also we see that in rokus flashback roku has fully mastered the avatar state using the 'flash' version and entering it at will. Yet we never saw guru pathik having a hand in this. Also Roku has never displayed any kind of knowledge of the chakras. The same goes for all the other previous avatars.

And we know through small/larger flashbacks that at least the latest cycle of avatar had mastered the state in aangs time without guru pathik. ( this would be roku,kyoshi,guruk and yangchen, they are all seen short in book 2 episode 1 and kyoshi and roku later get entire flashbacks showing their mastery.

To summarize gurus pathik way apperently is not the only way to enter it.

Now on to korras mastery.

Note that korras near suicidal point was not her only moment of her entering the state.

After recieving her peptalk from aang and seemingly having lost any trace of sadness.
She conciously and willingly with full control entered the avatar state. in the same episode to restore lin beifongs earth bending

Also to build more upon my previous post korra gained the ability to energybend in the avatar state a ability that she could not possibly possess by herself (this builds further on the avatar state grants all feats from their previous lifes)

to summarize again:
Pathiks theory is anything but established cannon as even aang himself went against it.
Not to mention others avatars who probably didnt even have knowledge otherwise he could have just asked roku for training.

Meanwhile the actual established cannon has korra conciously and willingly going in and out of the avatar state. Make from it what you want but roy is screwed the moment she uses it.

And there is no reason she wont against the famed war hero of ishbal.

who wont fry her because 1. 50 meters is a long distance
2. Roys attacks are far from instant as you can see in the post i pretty much dedicated to it.

I also wanted to include the part where they explain the diffrence between continuous and non-continuous avatar state but cant find it at the moment although they did explain it at some point.

lastly about the water thing. Korra native element is water and its probably the most familiar element to her she will use it at some point and if roy gets tagged by it he is useless.

If willfully entering and exiting (which she still did in book 1) is not mastery then what is?

[shinigan no sora]

Pathik not being around for every avatar is not proof that they defied his explanation. IN fact it is ridiculous to say it does.

If pathik found out how the chakras worked there easily could have been others who did so before him such as any air nomads preceding the story or any avatar born on the air elements turn in the cycle or anyone with such monklike tendencies or personality and connection to spiritual matters.

Aang maintaining a relationship with kataara has nothing to do with being able to or not able to achieve full AS. Unless you can prove that an avatar obtaining a mate and reproducing or the desire to do such a thing irreparably stunts the avatars progression or even if that was what pathik meant

What pathik most likely meant was that aang needed to be able to set aside all his wants and desires when necessarry for the greater good. Which he was able to do and was then able to pick them back up once the brunt of of destruction and malice was alleviated and thus bringing the world back from the brink of chaos. Thus allowing aang (and any other avatar) to have a balance intheir life

Either debunk this completely and irrefutably or admit failure

[Cult of Personality]

Earth Chakra "Muladhara" blocked by fear
Water Chakra "Swadhisthana" blocked by guilt
Fire Chakra "Manipura" blocked by shame
Air Chakra "Anahata" blocked by grief
Sound Chakra "Vishuddah" blocked by lies
Light Chakra "Ajna" blocked by illusion
Thought Chakra "Sahasrara" blocked by Earthly attachments


By unlocking the first chakra does that mean that Aang/Katara/whatever is incapable of feeling fear? No.
By unlocking the second chakra does that make one incapable of feeling guilt? No.

Does unlocking the sound chakra make one incapable of telling lies? Of course not.

It follows that unlocking the thought chakra doesn't mean you have to permanently give up on earthly attachments.

Like sos said, it just means putting aside these things when the time comes and in the future they may happen again.

----

:hmm
Making retarded claims, ignoring canon evidence, downplaying Roy's abilities. Is Bradley a BMC dupe?
:hmm

[shinigan no sora]

Exactly. And its further substantiated by the fact that the chakras themselves are directly borrowed from hindu/bhuddism both which strongly exemplify the idea that balance in all things leads to enlightenment and ascension to a greater state of mind and body

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

And with that Korra's side has been shut down for good it seems

Oh and BMC is not an Oma dupe he lacks the plmpous arrogance.and self righteousness

[JLI2infinity]

Now on to korras mastery.

Note that korras near suicidal point was not her only moment of her entering the state.

After recieving her peptalk from aang and seemingly having lost any trace of sadness.
She conciously and willingly with full control entered the avatar state. in the same episode to restore lin beifongs earth bending

Also to build more upon my previous post korra gained the ability to energybend in the avatar state a ability that she could not possibly possess by herself (this builds further on the avatar state grants all feats from their previous lifes)

to summarize again:
Pathiks theory is anything but established cannon as even aang himself went against it.
Not to mention others avatars who probably didnt even have knowledge otherwise he could have just asked roku for training.

Meanwhile the actual established cannon has korra conciously and willingly going in and out of the avatar state. Make from it what you want but roy is screwed the moment she uses it.

And there is no reason she wont against the famed war hero of ishbal.

who wont fry her because 1. 50 meters is a long distance
2. Roys attacks are far from instant as you can see in the post i pretty much dedicated to it.

I also wanted to include the part where they explain the diffrence between continuous and non-continuous avatar state but cant find it at the moment although they did explain it at some point.

lastly about the water thing. Korra native element is water and its probably the most familiar element to her she will use it at some point and if roy gets tagged by it he is useless.

If willfully entering and exiting (which she still did in book 1) is not mastery then what is?

You're doing something very similar to Bradley here. The catalyst for her realizing the Avatar state the first time was being sad. That was the only time she used the Avatar State for bending.

Her energy bending might not even be a part of the Avatar State, it just involves glowing eyes. In case you forgot Aang had dropped out of the Avatar State completely when he was fighting Ozai. The Avatar State was going to have him kill Ozai to save the world. He willingly suppressed it, walked over and instead took Ozai's bending away, a feat no previous Avatar had performed. And once again it still counts as a special circumstance. Despite being no longer depressed there's no way Korra's immense guilt from letting people get captured and hurt magically disappeared.

Basically until there is more information use of the Avatar State is not a valid tactic for this thread. There are too many unanswered questions. It would make the most sense to wait until book 2 if you wish to use that strategy,

But all debating aside, I doubt they will have Korra master all four elements and the most powerful form in the show by the beginning of the second book, it would ruin any form of suspense or pacing (which is what they already had a problem with when they crammed last season into 13 episodes so who knows). That's just my prediction. It would kind of be like putting SS3 Goku back in the Freiza Saga OR They will let her master it and she'll find a way to screw it up by not listening to Tenzin's advice, either way her childishness will get her in trouble.

[JLI2infinity]

WELL...after a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG debate looks like in 2013 I'll be switching sides from Roy to Korra since it seems like they are going to give her complete control over the Avatar State in Book 2, unless they suddenly decide to change things throughout the series that makes her a lot more powerful than Mustang

`o.o"`o.o"`o.o"

[BMC1994]

Pathik not being around for every avatar is not proof that they defied his explanation. IN fact it is ridiculous to say it does.

If pathik found out how the chakras worked there easily could have been others who did so before him such as any air nomads preceding the story or any avatar born on the air elements turn in the cycle or anyone with such monklike tendencies or personality and connection to spiritual matters.

Aang maintaining a relationship with kataara has nothing to do with being able to or not able to achieve full AS. Unless you can prove that an avatar obtaining a mate and reproducing or the desire to do such a thing irreparably stunts the avatars progression or even if that was what pathik meant

What pathik most likely meant was that aang needed to be able to set aside all his wants and desires when necessarry for the greater good. Which he was able to do and was then able to pick them back up once the brunt of of destruction and malice was alleviated and thus bringing the world back from the brink of chaos. Thus allowing aang (and any other avatar) to have a balance intheir life

Either debunk this completely and irrefutably or admit failure

It is already debunked by events in the legend of korra.

I dont get why you simply ignored the example i gave here is it again.

Legend of korra episode 12 around 21:41

If you are so convinced by gurus explanation then explain how korra can willingly enter and exit the state without guru pathiks training or no scrath that. How could she do such a thing when clearly not having any knowledge of the chakras at all.

Earth Chakra "Muladhara" blocked by fear
Water Chakra "Swadhisthana" blocked by guilt
Fire Chakra "Manipura" blocked by shame
Air Chakra "Anahata" blocked by grief
Sound Chakra "Vishuddah" blocked by lies
Light Chakra "Ajna" blocked by illusion
Thought Chakra "Sahasrara" blocked by Earthly attachments


By unlocking the first chakra does that mean that Aang/Katara/whatever is incapable of feeling fear? No.
By unlocking the second chakra does that make one incapable of feeling guilt? No.

Does unlocking the sound chakra make one incapable of telling lies? Of course not.

It follows that unlocking the thought chakra doesn't mean you have to permanently give up on earthly attachments.

Like sos said, it just means putting aside these things when the time comes and in the future they may happen again.

----

:hmm
Making retarded claims, ignoring canon evidence, downplaying Roy's abilities. Is Bradley a BMC dupe?
:hmm

Downplaying roys abilties? Idk if you read my sig but he is one of my favorite characters unlike other fanboys i am willing to admit to roy has limits like the fact that he never fried someone from about 50 by himself.

Meanwhile you are explaning my canon evidence.

Ill admit my wrong when you manage to explain how korra went in and out of the state without any knowledge of chakras.

Exactly. And its further substantiated by the fact that the chakras themselves are directly borrowed from hindu/bhuddism both which strongly exemplify the idea that balance in all things leads to enlightenment and ascension to a greater state of mind and body

This merely get the same response as above somehow prove that korra had any kind of knowledge of chakras or something akin to it.

You're doing something very similar to Bradley here. The catalyst for her realizing the Avatar state the first time was being sad. That was the only time she used the Avatar State for bending.

Her energy bending might not even be a part of the Avatar State, it just involves glowing eyes. In case you forgot Aang had dropped out of the Avatar State completely when he was fighting Ozai. The Avatar State was going to have him kill Ozai to save the world. He willingly suppressed it, walked over and instead took Ozai's bending away, a feat no previous Avatar had performed. And once again it still counts as a special circumstance. Despite being no longer depressed there's no way Korra's immense guilt from letting people get captured and hurt magically disappeared.

Basically until there is more information use of the Avatar State is not a valid tactic for this thread. There are too many unanswered questions. It would make the most sense to wait until book 2 if you wish to use that strategy,

But all debating aside, I doubt they will have Korra master all four elements and the most powerful form in the show by the beginning of the second book, it would ruin any form of suspense or pacing (which is what they already had a problem with when they crammed last season into 13 episodes so who knows). That's just my prediction. It would kind of be like putting SS3 Goku back in the Freiza Saga OR They will let her master it and she'll find a way to screw it up by not listening to Tenzin's advice, either way her childishness will get her in trouble.

Just to be clear i am not bradley i am me. No reason to get buthurt over a debate and make another account which would be a great waste of time.

On topic now

Energy Bending involves glowing in a different color (In Aang vs Ozai it blue/orange which are very different color then what korra displayed. If you are so bent on explanation/feats fromt he previous series.

Even if the glow would be part of energy bending how would she have ever learned energybending she has not recently encountered any lion turtle. Or anyone else with knowledge of it except aang.

But avatar have no way of Directly passing on all their knowledge and abilities free for the current avatar for casual use. Otherwise the traveling the world and learning the 4 elements would not be needed.

And when using energy bending she did not 'Channel' aang it was still just korra who clearly has not learned energy bending herself yet.

Big difference between aang prematurely exitting and korra case are the following:

Korra Entered it by herself
Korra had full control of herself seeing as she did not went berserk like aang did.
The glow was not continuous but just a flash.

Basicly everytime the avatar state is used is a 'special moment' aang used it out of desperation in basing se roku out of anger/indignation against sozin.

Not to mention each time it was uncontrolled was also in times of emotional turmoil.

Really her having guilt does not have much to do with her use of the state.

The main reason i dont wait till book 2 is that she clearly enters and exits at will in book 1. I dont get why this is blatantly ignored in a place that is all about feats not apply and bending some theory into LOkorra while it has never been introduced there and which clearly has not gone up for korras concious use.

If you answer this

How can korra willingly enter and exit the state without knowledge of chakras.

^Roy basicly wins if you just manage to answer this because then it would be easy to close the distance and turn korra into BBQ.

Go ahead and deliver the final blow.

[Cult of Personality]

It is already debunked by events in the legend of korra.

When something contradicts established evidence we don't take that contradiction as canon. It is very much not debunked.

I dont get why you simply ignored the example i gave here is it again.
It's being ignored because it's Deus Ex Machina

If you are so convinced by gurus explanation then explain how korra can willingly enter and exit the state without guru pathiks training or no scrath that. How could she do such a thing when clearly not having any knowledge of the chakras at all.Explain how Sasuke can summon Manda to avoid Deidara's C0 while out of chakra.

Just because it happened doesn't mean it should be accepted out of hand.


Meanwhile you are explaning my canon evidence.
No, I'm debunking your attempts to dismiss canon evidence and wank Korra.


Ill admit my wrong when you manage to explain how korra went in and out of the state without any knowledge of chakras.
Deus Ex Machina. Now admit you're wrong.

Just to be clear i am not bradley i am me. No reason to get buthurt over a debate and make another account which would be a great waste of time.You underestimate the pettiness of people like Bradley.

1. I dont get why this is blatantly ignored in a place that is all about feats not apply and bending some theory into LOkorra while it has never been introduced there and which clearly has not gone up for korras concious use.
Feats that directly contradict established canon are not feats. Korra continues from The Last Airbender where the method for controlling the Avatar State is specifically outlined. Korra somehow managing to gain control of it because OMGZORZWTF I IZ TEH SAD. :'( is garbage and because it contradicts canon it is being ignored.

How can korra willingly enter and exit the state without knowledge of chakras.
I have three very good friends you should meet. Their names are Deus, Ex and Machina.

[shinigan no sora]

Another thing about the chakras is that they can be unlocked without knowing they even exist and since they are tied to bending in the TLA verse and are a source for AS or at least for its advancement since the chakras blockage are emotions and human obstacles of self.

However in korra's case. Ulocking the avatar state completely(which I maintain she has not) would be deus ex machina which. Is in some cases in the form of an asspull as cult pointed out. Its also known as a major failure on the part of a writer.

And as per rules feats derived soely from deus ex machina are in admissable as they can be considered outliers or just big mistakes by the writer that hamper judgement of the fight

Prove korras AS is not deus ex machina

Also prove you need to know about the chakras to unlock them and that you must maintain the disciplines used to unlock them constantly

[BMC1994]

Well if it the event occuring a 2nd time conciously does not remove its deux machina status i have not much to say anymore (i do but i am lazy)

So i was wrong(partially) *resists typing paragraphs about why i was not completely wrong* XD

But seriously i was wrong.

Edit: Wouldnt the whole deux machina argument make the majority of amazing feats useless i mean were talking about shounen here whole transformations can be counted as deux ex machina.

[shinigan no sora]

The hasn't yet happened unlesss you count the trailer. Which since it is without context you can't. And often times if no plot repair is done it will stay a deus ex machina

However your statement about whole transformations being D E M is only partially correct.

In cases where asspull deus ex machina is implemented an inteligent author will remedy it by having the initial event being an outlier and the chaaracter affected having to earn the use of the ability in its full use. Usually by training.

This use of asspull deus ex machina is commonly used when implementing a new kind of power or ability. And the initial event is written off as the character accidentally discovering said abillity

I like to refer to these instances of PIS as deus ex discoveries and its actually very common particuarlly in the shonen genre

[BMC1994]

No you are still forgetting one time.

1st time

I iz sad gif me bending

2nd

I iz avatar korra here some bending (to lin beifong)

It happened 2 times in the series i was not counting any trailers

not that it matters.

[shinigan no sora]

Actually that only counts as once. Since it was from the same transformation in the same episode

Nice try but you just proved yourself that its still deus ex machina :p

[BMC1994]

It was not a try :S

I dont see how that only counts as once when there was a clear interval between them :S

[shinigan no sora]

I already told you why

Its because it was from the same transformation and no there is not a clear interval between it.

She was not far from where she gave lin her bending back when she achieved AS via deus ex machina and continued over into deus ex machina by her returning lin's bending in the same sequence of events

It wasn't days or even hours later after she went deus ex machina it was minutes. Therefore it is part of the same single deus ex machina event

[BMC1994]

I still do not see how two seperate transformations count as one even if they are the same. But ok.

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

I am going to assume Korra had the knowledge of how to enter that state either downloaded into her brain or she was still feeling so guilty over all of it that she had lingering emotions

it was and is a radical character change for her..wonder who the knew villain is though

[BMC1994]

The new book is called spirits so i guess we will maybe see koh the face stealer again. he would be a awesome sub-villain.