Speculation on the events around Obiot

[SilentBlade]

To start..this is NOT an "Obito is Tobi" thread, so before zero comes in and attempts to eat my soul :p I figured i'd put that out there!

So, to start, We know just how important the events around the rescue of Rin by Obito and Kakashi. We know everything up to that point happened, they ended up finding Rin and what not. The question comes down to whether or not the events AFTER actually happened. We see that he attacks and then it kind of fades to black....The real question that might need to be asked is whether or not what happened afterward was an expertly cast Genjutsu. The thought is that perhaps the individual who found Obito's body was himself actually an ally at the time.

I haven't nailed down just WHO I think Tobi is yet, but I am starting by trying to unravel events that happened and make out purposely ambiguous situation which leave open opportunities to make sense of how Tobi was able to get Obito's eye. Perhaps the whole story simply never came out, and while I know Setsuna Uchiha was said to have died, he had proper motive, access to the battlefield (more than likely) and hatred of Tobirama...just a few thoughts :)

Edit: Sometimes I hate how Google Chrome interacts with forums..sometimes when it sends...it just jumbles things together >.<

[Maruko]

When Tobi revealed that he had collected the eye after the battle at Kannabi bridge, it made me believe that Tobi's somehow related to Kusagakure.

[SilentBlade]

When Tobi revealed that he had collected the eye after the battle at Kannabi bridge, it made me believe that Tobi's somehow related to Kusagakure.

The only issue I have with that, would be why Kakashi and Rin were still alive if Minato showed up and "finished up." There is always the possibility, but the motive isn't really there, nor would the indepth Uchiha knowledge be either. It had to be someone that Minato would have trusted and left to attempt to recover Obito's body. As we know from other sections of the Manga, a shinobi's body is a treasure trove of knowledge, and knowing the possibility of a sharingan remaining would have been a bit much to leave behind.

[Nameless Shinobi]

maybe they think that obito body already crushed so don't have anything worth to collect
and Rin is still alive before she got killed in other mission
man..we need Rin gaiden `:P

[paradigm1977]

That's right. We know from the beginning of the manga that Haku was hunting Zabuza as a missing Nin, and how the body is usually destroyed right then.

I would think given that, and if Tobi is telling the truth and not messing with Kakashi (though both could be true), then the eye was taken between when Kakashi was knocked out and when Minato arrived. Or at least, before Minato won that fight and Rin took him back into the cave.

Also, it's important to note the line Tobi gave to kakashi is what Minato said to obito.

1. Tobi is Obito
2. Tobi was there.
3. Tobi read the mind of someone in that group, and remembered it....

[zerosameri]

Para: Were is your supporting evidence saying Tobi is Obito :|

[SilentBlade]

I don't believe Tobi is Obito simply because of the age gap and an issue with motive. I do believe he was a leaf shinobi, and more than likely an Uchiha with an issue. However it would certainly be interesting of Tobi ended up being the son of Tobirama...just a thought :-p

[Nameless Shinobi]

the motive is to end the war through domination is not enough for you?
i think obito can be twisted by madara like sasuke and nagato
but yeah tobi is obito is kinda funny and not epic at all

[Naruto321]

To start..this is NOT an "Obito is Tobi" thread, so before zero comes in and attempts to eat my soul :p I figured i'd put that out there!

So, to start, We know just how important the events around the rescue of Rin by Obito and Kakashi. We know everything up to that point happened, they ended up finding Rin and what not. The question comes down to whether or not the events AFTER actually happened. We see that he attacks and then it kind of fades to black....The real question that might need to be asked is whether or not what happened afterward was an expertly cast Genjutsu. The thought is that perhaps the individual who found Obito's body was himself actually an ally at the time.

I haven't nailed down just WHO I think Tobi is yet, but I am starting by trying to unravel events that happened and make out purposely ambiguous situation which leave open opportunities to make sense of how Tobi was able to get Obito's eye. Perhaps the whole story simply never came out, and while I know Setsuna Uchiha was said to have died, he had proper motive, access to the battlefield (more than likely) and hatred of Tobirama...just a few thoughts :)

Edit: Sometimes I hate how Google Chrome interacts with forums..sometimes when it sends...it just jumbles things together >.<

He may have some issues with something like this and become the better on throughout the story.

When Tobi revealed that he had collected the eye after the battle at Kannabi bridge, it made me believe that Tobi's somehow related to Kusagakure.

@Bold

How so?

[paradigm1977]

When Tobi revealed that he had collected the eye after the battle at Kannabi bridge, it made me believe that Tobi's somehow related to Kusagakure.


You mean Iwagekure. They were the ones figting.

[paradigm1977]

Para: Were is your supporting evidence saying Tobi is Obito :|

Just check all the Obito threads. Ignore the things that might mean it won't work.

add from 597

He got the eye from the..essentially what we saw in kakashi chronicles. 1-5. Tobi confirmed where and when.

That's just the eye
Then Tobi throws that speech at kakashi that Minato threw at Obito.

Then kakashi says "You!" So kakashi knows who was at that fight that must have Obito's eye.

It seems like Kishi might ignore some of our concerns about why it can't be Obito...and make Tobi Obito.

To reference these things and not make Tobi Obito (clues) or Kakko (posibilities/clues), then it's out of nowhere with someone we never saw at that fight.

I just like Kakko as the darkhorse that was the least powerful posibility, yet fits on many levels, and unlike everyone outside Obito, can add drama to what we saw and didn't see from that battle.

[Nameless Shinobi]

i think that "You!" is that Kishi want us to think that Kakashi think tobi is Obito
too many think `o.o"

[Naruto321]

That's actuall the whole point of we are trying to say :lol:

He's teasing us, in other words he is something what we like to say "Trolling"!

[outsidethebar]

remember when Rin was staring up into the night sky after obito died?

could be related to space-time ninjutsu

[Naruto321]

But I mean seriously, who wouldn't look up at the sky because you see someone you cared about died right in front of you!

[Nameless Shinobi]

she care to kakashi more than to obito

[Naruto321]

But it would make more sense if she had feelings for Obito also because of what Kakashi told her about Obito's feelings for her.

[Nameless Shinobi]

yeah, she see someone who love her die in front of her eyes and rejected by someone she love. double kill

[Maruko]

If Kishi wants to lose millions of fans...let him make Tobi Obito.
I mean, a lot of guys would hate that!

[Naruto321]

If Kishi wants to lose millions of fans...let him make Tobi Obito.
I mean, a lot of guys would hate that!

I doubt that

I believe theres more of a chance that the percentage of the people believe that Tobi is Obito is very high. They want to have one of the "I told you" moments.

[SilentBlade]

It just doesn't make sense...why would Obito become Tobi? for that matter, what motivation would he have to do what he was doing? he made a self-sacrifice to save Kakashi during the cave in, it wasn't like he couldn't have survived, so it was a known outcome.

Though a thought does occur to me. We know Minato was out fighting and what not, but what about Orochimaru? There is definitely some sort of connection between Orochimaru and Tobi, and then there has to be a connection between Tobi and Obito in some sort of way. The question really comes down to how we map out those connections.

We know that part of Obito's body was crushed, and the fact that he was still talking before the very end means that his head was NOT crushed, so his other eye was more than likely intact. The eye would have had to have been used during his fight with Minato, so that is also important.

Finally, there is an important parallel to be drawn in regards to Tobi not being Obito...Remember Obito was on a team with Minato, being on a team with Minato it is reasonable to expect him to understand Minato's speed and jutsu better than he did during their fight, I would say that is a major strike against him.

[JLI2infinity]

Here are my best explanations for why Tobi is Obito and how it came to be which account for the majority of objections that are usually raised, along with my best guess at the history of Tobi and Madara.

That's very possible but of course skeptics will bring up the fact that if you believe in the Tobi is Obito theory then it had to be Obito during the attack on Konoha the day Naruto was born because he was using S/T ninjutsu and he displayed some sort of Zetsu like substance after Minato hit him with Rasengan on the side where Obito had been crushed. If Madara acted as Tobi for a while then all the chronological disputes could be put to rest. And I don't see why Madara wouldn't have taken on a new identity. He was a refugee trying to plot his revenge while not being spotted, putting on a mask and becoming a new villain seems like a great idea then once Madara died and passed the torch and his plan on to Obito, Obito could keep the alias to hide his own identity.

I'll try to generally address the objections I usually see.

Age Difference During Minato Attack
Ok so I don't see why everyone is having this big problem with Obito "looking like a grown man." Kakashi and Gai were teenagers but they'd grown a little taller at that time. Minato wasn't a giant to begin with, actually in a picture where they have all of Naruto's close mentors I think Minato is third shortest, above Old Hiruzen and Naruto but right below adult Kakashi. In the team picture Obito was already the tallest in the group. Growing the three to five inches he'd need to be Minato's height doesn't seem like some ridiculous feat over the course of a year to a year and a half for a teenager in the middle of puberty!!! Shino and Chouji grew to be taller than a fully grown Yamato over the time skip too. This seems to be a pretty weak objection imo.

Skill Difference During Minato Attack
Alright so how did Tobi go from scrub that struggled against a somewhat skilled Iwa jonin to god level ninja fighting on par with his old master who was considered an unsurpassable genius. Well from the man who ALMOST knows everything of course, Madara. I do understand it would be the biggest jump in the series but I don't see why everyone is freaking out that someone became S class in a short period of time. With the right motivation and an extremely powerful teacher it really isn't that difficult.

Look at how much Naruto and Sasuke grew in just a month under the tutelage of Jiraiya and Kakashi. They hopped from genin to chuunin level fairly quickly. In their fight at the Valley of End they were both fighting at least at a jonin level because of their drive and passion. After two years of training with Oro, Sasuke jumped from chuunin level to low tier S class mastering genjutsu, excelling in ninjutsu, and becoming proficient at kenjutsu, maintaining his sharingan, and using Cursed Seal.

Obito was a chuunin who'd just unlocked his sharingan around the time of his death. Now imagine him learning how to control his new power by a legend who basically founded the entire clan. A guy who knew the secrets of MS, lived in early Konoha, probably witnessed Tobirama and his Space-Time Ninjutsu, fought against Hashirama twice, read the sacred Uchiha tablet, etc. Madara would probably be the most knowledgeable and powerful teacher any shinobi can imagine. Making Obito that strong in a year and a half seems within his power.

Surviving the Rock Crushing Him and Becoming Evil

This one's a little tough because it seemed like Rin was holding Obito's hand and watching him die. But she could've easily gotten distracted by the huge group of Iwa shinobi that showed up to ambush them. If Obito managed to survive just an hour or two that would've been enough time for Madara and Zetsu to show up. Zetsu fuses one of his clones with Obito's body and Madara takes him back where Obito heals. After that it would be easy for Madara to corrupt Obito by slowly nudging him down the path of evil, just like Tobi did to Sasuke, it would probably explain why Tobi was so good at it.

With the basic part explained it's just up to Kishi to fill in the blanks with whatever flashbacks he finds necessary for Obito. Maybe he watched Kakashi fail to protect Rin. Maybe his experience with the war made him realize how horrible the shinobi world is. Maybe after talking to Madara he felt like he'd been sacrificed like a pawn for a village that was corrupt to begin with. Kishi can come up with a dozen explanations.


I doubt that Konoha went back to the battlefield and dug up a body among hundreds of rocks. Imagine how many people must have died during that war do you really think they spent THAT much time searching for one kid. It's probably just like real life, you try your best but after a while you just call it off. It's not like most of the ninja get individual graves anyways their names all get carved on that one memorial stone. Not to mention Kakashi is very secretive about his personal life, we don't know about Rin, a lot of his ANBU missions, how he got MS...things of that nature. Him not mentioning that they never found Obito's body seems like a minor detail especially since finding the body doesn't even provide closure since Kakashi saw Obito die.

Hmmm the rocks falling would be a hard one to cover up, I think Kishi would have to answer that in a flashback. Maybe Obito was down there and he whispered up asking for help later that day and Madara and Zetsu happened to hear him as they passed by. We've already seen how certain strong willed shinobi can push on even in the bleakest circumstances. There were already plenty of rocks on top of Obito I don't see how a few more would've made a difference it just seems like a burial to me.

Finally, as for the Nagato's eyes thing. Ok we all know it was this new Tobi from Naruto's generation that said he was the one that gave Nagato the Rinnegan but that was still when he was pretending to be Madara he hadn't revealed that he was a completely separate person yet. Well I just explained in my last post how I think that Madara acted as Tobi for a period of time until he passed it on to Obito. That means the things we saw with Kisame and Zabuza were carried out by Madara at first.

Madara said he died shortly after gaining the Rinnegan well that's very vague because it doesn't tell us two important things....when did he gain the Rinnegan and how long is shortly? For all we know he didn't unlock the Rinnegan until years after his exile from Konoha and escaping Hashirama at the Valley of End. He could've unlocked the Rinnegan after more training like Kakashi did with his MS over a decade after gaining his sharingan.

Let's assume he activated the Rinnegan later on in life. After taking over Kirigakure while controlling Yagura, he finds out that some survivors of the Uzumaki Clan have taken refuge in the neighboring village Amegakure. After recruiting Kisame to his side along with Zetsu who we can assume has been travelling with him all this time, he goes to explore the village. For some reason which will be explained later on by Kishi, Madara gives Nagato the Rinengan. Weakened Madara only survives for a few more years (long enough for the Third Shinobi World War to begin).

When he notices the cause of the shinobi world war (villages decaying in power but trying to keep balance) and how desperately both sides wanted to win but how many people were lost in the process Madara develops the idea to create the Akatsuki, a mercenary group which can actually disguise his true plan for Infinite Tsukuyomi. Before he dies he picks up Obito, trains him and relays the plan to him, Zetsu, and Kisame.

After that Obito as the new Tobi goes back to an older Nagato, Yahiko, and Konan and tells them to form the Akatsuki suggesting Kisame and Zetsu as members. He then attempts his attack on Minato and after failing decides to lay low for a few years while Akatsuki forms. He returns to Konoha one day to finish off the Uchiha Clan that Madara despised, joining forces with Itachi. A few years later he finally appears to the fully formed Akatsuki as Tobi.

This is the best way I can make sense of it, in my opinion the lines Wooster mentioned pretty much give it away. But if I had to take another stab at it the only one I could think of that would make sense is Shisui. Kagami and Izuna just seem too irrelevant to the plot for me.

[zerosameri]

Just check all the Obito threads. Ignore the things that might mean it won't work.

add from 597

He got the eye from the..essentially what we saw in kakashi chronicles. 1-5. Tobi confirmed where and when.

That's just the eye
Then Tobi throws that speech at kakashi that Minato threw at Obito.

Then kakashi says "You!" So kakashi knows who was at that fight that must have Obito's eye.

It seems like Kishi might ignore some of our concerns about why it can't be Obito...and make Tobi Obito.

To reference these things and not make Tobi Obito (clues) or Kakko (posibilities/clues), then it's out of nowhere with someone we never saw at that fight.

I just like Kakko as the darkhorse that was the least powerful posibility, yet fits on many levels, and unlike everyone outside Obito, can add drama to what we saw and didn't see from that battle. All of the logic they use doesn't even work.
Yes, because having someone else eyes so makes you them.

[paradigm1977]

All of the logic they use doesn't even work.
Yes, because having someone else eyes so makes you them.

I know it doesn't IMO. That's why I didn't refer you to my own. My point is Kishi was made an effort to connect Tobi to obito only. Not the Sages older son, Izuna, Kagami, and Fugaku was ruled out.

So unless he wants to retcon and make Obito Tobi, or my recent diea that some are getting tired of hearing, Kishi is gonna say it's...

This random powerful Uchiha. You never knew much about him and I've written a while background to explain how he got this way...but truth be told you didn't know the others and what I'm writing came out of knowwhere and could apply to this other Uchiha too, with aminor changes. I just decided to make Tobi this guy.

And that is why I push Kakko so hard, to avoid a random Uchiha explanations and Obito conflicts like being surprised at Minatos speed, and saying in that same fight that he hadn't lost in a long time, so Minato is worthy of hokage.