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BMC1994
08-10-2012, 03:35 AM
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An all out battle
Will do everyhting in their ability to kill each other.

Master vs Student

Restriction: No Mangekyou Sharingan for both

all other jutsu allowed.

Who would win?

PrinceofPeace
08-10-2012, 11:52 AM
Saskue wins

Kakashi would have a hard time killing one of his own

megabbaut
08-10-2012, 11:54 AM
Saskue wins

Kakashi would have a hard time killing one of his own
That doesn't say anything

Kakashi wins with kamui

PrinceofPeace
08-10-2012, 11:56 AM
the OP says no MS so no kamui... right?

megabbaut
08-10-2012, 11:58 AM
Wow I forgot it said that

Anyway, with MS or CM Sasuke pretty much sucks. All he has is lightning and fire styles.

PrinceofPeace
08-10-2012, 12:03 PM
Saskue has EMS does that count???

Saskue still has a better sharigan to use genjutsu with
Saskue is driven by hatred so I doubt he will lose
Saskue has kirin he just needs to use fire a lot
Saskue can summon his hawk and attack from above

Kuromaki
08-10-2012, 12:06 PM
EMS is still MS. Hence, the MS part of its name.

PrinceofPeace
08-10-2012, 12:08 PM
thats what I figured but Saskue still has flight

megabbaut
08-10-2012, 12:25 PM
Saskue has EMS does that count???

Saskue still has a better sharigan to use genjutsu with
Saskue is driven by hatred so I doubt he will lose
Saskue has kirin he just needs to use fire a lot
Saskue can summon his hawk and attack from above
Kakashi's Sharingan can also use genjutsu

Sasuke driven by hatred is irrelevant

His fire isn't powerful enough now to prep Kirin, also even if he can use it he'll just kill himself with it

Kakashi dodges all of Sasuke's attacks while he wastes his chakra

BMC1994
08-10-2012, 12:59 PM
Restricting ms gets rid of the "omg lulz he kamuis him to tobis dimension" and the '''zomg susanoo stomps ze everything roflz' comments and actually creates the oppertunity for half decent matches/debates.

I personally think it would go to kakashi yknow with having copied 1000 jutsu and all.

PrinceofPeace
08-10-2012, 06:35 PM
Then how does Kakashi win when saskue summons a hawk!!!

Saskue gets on the hawk and attacks from their... nothing that Kakashi can do

1,000 jutsu you say THAT IS HYPE!!! We do not know what they are and they could mostly be E-rank attacks

Saskue matched Itachi's genjutsu
Kakashi did NOT match Itachi's genjutsu

kakashi can not dodge forever
Saskue's hatred is his motivation and strenght to keep him fighting

megabbaut
08-10-2012, 07:39 PM
Seriously, the hawk isn't a big deal. It's only useful if Sasuke were to fall down a pit or something.

And Itachi was holding back.

PrinceofPeace
08-10-2012, 08:06 PM
Itachi was holding back against Kakashi too

How would the Hawk not help?? Do you not want to talk about it cuz Kakashi can not hit saskue in the Sky???

Kakashi Hatake_Yamato
08-10-2012, 08:45 PM
Without MS, Sasuke is nothing.
Kakashi throws kunais at the hawk and kills it.
If the hawk manages to keep flying, it will tire out eventually. Having to dodge attacks and weapons, the hawk will eventually become exhausted and die.


Kakashi could have his ninken waiting underground, and when Sasuke gets back to the ground, Kakashi's dogs hold him down. Raikiri.

PrinceofPeace
08-10-2012, 09:02 PM
1-Saskue matches Kakashi's kunai with his own
2-Hawk flaps wings to blow kunais offcourse
3-Hawk fllies to dodge

4- Hawk/Saskue kill Kakashi before anyone gets exhausted
5- Saskue sees the dogs underground with Sharigan

6- Saskue sends Chodori through his body so dogs can not touch him

I know you LOVE Kakashi but he can not win this

Uchiha Sora
08-10-2012, 11:10 PM
The Hawk can't do anything special last time I checked. Not to mention its not something Sasuke uses often.

Beast Running jutsu could probably take it down anyway.

Sasuke without MS and CM is essentially a worse Kakashi :lol:

megabbaut
08-11-2012, 06:19 AM
Itachi was holding back against Kakashi too

How would the Hawk not help?? Do you not want to talk about it cuz Kakashi can not hit saskue in the Sky???
Yes but against Sasuke he was actually trying to lose on purpose.

Because everything Sasuke tries to use on the Hawk would only be dodged by Kakashi without difficulty. And as Daph said, the hawk will eventually tire out and not move as fast. During that time a Lightning Beast can take it out.

TobiramaSenju307
08-11-2012, 10:21 AM
without ms sasukes too much of a monster. he landed a hit on A and dodged his elbow. he fought and beat deidara. his genjutsu oneshotted shee despite shee having great chakra control. a subtle enuogh genjutsu will trick kakashi and by then its too late. he will have a chidori spear through his head.


Yes but against Sasuke he was actually trying to lose on purpose.
no he wasnt. why cast tsukiyomi and moreover make it so damn hard for sasuke? he had to stay alive long enough to seal oro at least so he went all out defensively

MinatoXNaruto
08-11-2012, 10:30 AM
Then how does Kakashi win when saskue summons a hawk!!!

Saskue gets on the hawk and attacks from their... nothing that Kakashi can do

1,000 jutsu you say THAT IS HYPE!!! We do not know what they are and they could mostly be E-rank attacks

Saskue matched Itachi's genjutsu
Kakashi did NOT match Itachi's genjutsu

kakashi can not dodge forever
Saskue's hatred is his motivation and strenght to keep him fighting
Sasuke never matched Itachi's genjutsu. Where did you get that from? Anyway, only thing I see as a problem for Kakashi is Kirin and maybe chidori nagashi.

Kakashi also has fanged pursuit. He could use that, then raikiri.

PrinceofPeace
08-11-2012, 10:40 AM
Saskue broke out of Tsykumai and Kakashi did not

kakashi's dogs will not help when saskue is in the sky or surronds himself with chodori

MinatoXNaruto
08-11-2012, 10:59 AM
Saskue broke out of Tsykumai and Kakashi did not

kakashi's dogs will not help when saskue is in the sky or surronds himself with chodori
How will Sasuke hit Kakashi from the sky? Sasuke was able to break tsukiyomi due to Itachi not trying to seriously injure him and the fact that he was sick. Itachi could've made the tsukiyomi much MUCH worse

PrinceofPeace
08-11-2012, 11:01 AM
Itachi did not want to injure Kakashi either

saskue can send fire balls at kakshi or use chodori spear or Chodori senbon

Kakashi can not do anything but dodge and he has low stamina

MinatoXNaruto
08-11-2012, 11:07 AM
Have you seen current Kakashi? He said he was almost out of chakra when he caught up with Naruto an is still able to use multiple Kamuis. So either Kakashi has way more chakra now, or it's bad writing by Kishi. Kakashi will easily dodge the fireballs. The chidori could be a bit of a problem but all Kakashi has to do is surround himself with earth style.

PrinceofPeace
08-11-2012, 11:13 AM
kakashi still can not hit Saskue just like he could not hit Deidara ( Kakashi he Deidara once but he was cocky)

Saskue has more of a chance to hit him thank Kakashi has a chance to hit saskue

BMC1994
08-11-2012, 11:15 AM
I dont see how flying would safe sasuke from kakashi long range attacks like Fire jutsu or Water dragon Jutsu. And Kakashi can counter Sasukes Chidori and Variations with his own chidori/ Raikiri.

Uchiha Sora
08-11-2012, 11:57 AM
Itachi did not want to injure Kakashi either

saskue can send fire balls at kakshi or use chodori spear or Chodori senbon

Kakashi can not do anything but dodge and he has low stamina

But he was trying to win, unlike his fight with Sasuke.

All which easily get dodged

With all the jutsu he has used in the war, with no known signs of rest/recovery,he has way more stamina than Sasuke will ever hope to have :lol:

PrinceofPeace
08-11-2012, 12:41 PM
There is still no way he can hit Saskue in the air

MinatoXNaruto
08-11-2012, 12:49 PM
Long ranged attacks. Or he just waits it out. Either Sasuke can't fly forever. That hawk will get tired and when he comes down raikiri or Kakashi owns him in taijutsu. Kakashi also knows how to open the gates

BMC1994
08-11-2012, 01:16 PM
There is still no way he can hit Saskue in the air

Kakashi could simply hide/conceal himself in the ground preventing sasuke from ever hitting him. Or water dragon jutsu to hit him in the air. Or simply throw shuriken/Kunai at him.

JLI2infinity
08-11-2012, 01:21 PM
Kakashi's built his entire ninja career fighting without MS. He has way more experience in this department. Sasuke's whole offense lately has consisted of strictly MS techniques. Hebi Sasuke was no doubt a powerful opponent but what made him the most dangerous was that he used Cursed Seal to boost his overall power. In his current form he can't do that and that's why he'll lose to Kakashi.

None of Sasuke's katon attacks will work against Kakashi's suiton techniques. Rakiri is stronger than Chidori so if Sasuke were to clash head on like he does against Naruto it would end up with him getting his arm mangled and in worst case scenario his chest ripped open. Genjutsu won't work on Kakashi.

There goes Sasuke's entire offense, he can try kenjutsu but as we saw last chapter Kakashi now knows how to channel raiton chakra into his bladed weapons and as he demonstrated against the Seven Swordsmen, Kakashi is very proficient in kenjutsu as well.

Sasuke's got nothing here literally no advantages...Kakashi on the other hand has clones, more useful summons for ground based combat, higher intelligence, more experience, and a wider array of elemental techniques. Taking away MS does get rid of Kakashi's most powerful technique but it limits Sasuke's entire character.

PrinceofPeace
08-11-2012, 06:40 PM
^ Nothing from there says how he will hit Saskue when he is in the sky

Uchiha Sora
08-11-2012, 06:52 PM
And being in the sky won't do jack for Sasuke. He's gonna get down eventually. He'll have to resort to close range combat at some point.

And his hawk is also pretty OoC considering even Tobi had never seen his hawk and he hasn't used it other than when he was falling to his death.

PrinceofPeace
08-11-2012, 08:24 PM
if Saskue does not use his hawk then he loses

megabbaut
08-12-2012, 08:43 AM
He loses even with the hawk. The hawk doesn't change anything.

JLI2infinity
08-12-2012, 12:07 PM
^ Nothing from there says how he will hit Saskue when he is in the sky

Nothing here says how the hawk helps Sasuke in any way. Kakashi has more jutsu than Sasuke, Sasuke flying around in the sky gets him nowhere. He can't do any serious damage from that distance without MS. The best thing the hawk does is make it a stalemate.

PrinceofPeace
08-12-2012, 09:06 PM
I already said if Saskue did not lose the hawk than he loses. I agree its a tie most likely

JLI2infinity
08-12-2012, 09:17 PM
I already said if Saskue did not lose the hawk than he loses. I agree its a tie most likely

No, what you did was create a stalemate, it's like Sasuke's not even fighting. This isn't a tie, this is clearly Kakashi's victory unless Sasuke does what's basically the equivalent of running away. If I follow your logic I could virtually go into any Kakashi thread and say. Kakashi hides underground the entire fight so no one can catch him. I could basically do that now if I wanted but that would defeat the purpose of the thread. If Sasuke basically makes it so neither of them can land a blow then it's not even a fight.

Uchiha Sora
08-12-2012, 11:59 PM
Not like Sasuke would pull out the hawk in the first place.

Leejjon
08-13-2012, 08:19 AM
Kakashi has low stamina/chakra, he has to sleep for a week when he uses his sharingan. Sasuke uses his sharingan all the time. Sasuke wins here.

Sasuke has fire and lightning, Kakashi has water, earth and lightning. Kakashi probably has copied more stuff we haven't seen yet so he might also be able to use other elements. Kakashi wins here.

Kakashi has 1000 jutsu's copied. His strongest are probably the water and earth jutsu's he usually uses (why didn't he use any other jutsu against kakazu for instance). Sasuke has the fire jutsu's and his chidori variations which are really extraordinary (Orochimaru said he'd never seen such shape manipulation). Based on quality jutsu's, Sasuke wins, based on numbers Kakashi wins.

I'd say Sasuke is better at ninja tools with his rig stuff, and Kakashi is better at close range combat.

Both are good at dodging with their sharingans. Sasuke can use the full body chidori as extra defense. Kakashi can use the earth wall as extra defense.

Summons
Kakashi has some dogs, Sasuke has the hawk - tie.

Can Sasuke still do the snakes trick from Orochimaru, or was that a part of Orochimaru that got pulled out by Itachi?

I think that Sasuke would still win. But it kind of depends how good Kakashi's other 997 jutsu's are.

Uchiha Sora
08-13-2012, 08:26 AM
Kakashi's stamina is at least 10x better than the start of the series. He's been spammin his MS away along with tons of other jutsu. I don't know how far you are in the anime/manga, but without MS, Kakashi is superior to Sasuke in virtually every way.

king kakashi
08-13-2012, 09:05 AM
Kakashi couldn't touch Itachi in any way or form wereas sasuke was at least able to fight him.

kakashi created the chidori but sasuke has shown massive variation of it to the point that it could be stated that he is better at it

even though kakashi has 1000 jutsu that does not mean he has 1000 useful jutsu
sasuke and kakashi spared very briefly after the danzo fight and lets face it sasuke was half blind and half dead and still able to keep up

Kakashi's stamina is great but sasuke's is way better kakashi has been seen useing kamui alot more but sasuke uses his MS non stop

BTW when has kakashi ever opened the gates or am i missing something

megabbaut
08-13-2012, 09:23 AM
Kakashi couldn't touch Itachi in any way or form wereas sasuke was at least able to fight him.

kakashi created the chidori but sasuke has shown massive variation of it to the point that it could be stated that he is better at it

even though kakashi has 1000 jutsu that does not mean he has 1000 useful jutsu
sasuke and kakashi spared very briefly after the danzo fight and lets face it sasuke was half blind and half dead and still able to keep up

Kakashi's stamina is great but sasuke's is way better kakashi has been seen useing kamui alot more but sasuke uses his MS non stop

BTW when has kakashi ever opened the gates or am i missing something
Stop ignoring the facts. Itachi was trying to win against Kakashi, whereas Itachi was trying to lose against Sasuke.

Kakashi opened the gates during his rock climbing training, during the Chunin Exams.

king kakashi
08-13-2012, 09:50 AM
Stop ignoring the facts. Itachi was trying to win against Kakashi, whereas Itachi was trying to lose against Sasuke.

Kakashi opened the gates during his rock climbing training, during the Chunin Exams.
you stop ignoring facts kakashi was completely unable to react to anything itachi threw his way
Itachi was not trying to lose he was trying to flush out oro
sasuke was at least able to react to itachi the entire fight

Thank you for noting on this so i did miss something

Uchiha Sora
08-13-2012, 10:01 AM
Sasuke was just healed after he fought Danzo IIRC Karin healed him

Kakashi and Itachi had some high speed taijutsu skirmishes. Rocks were falling as they were fighting.
Sasuke was pretty much roflstomped in Taijutsu IIRC and let's not forge he was heavily ill as Zetsu said there were things he could've easily dodged but didn't.

megabbaut
08-13-2012, 10:26 AM
you stop ignoring facts kakashi was completely unable to react to anything itachi threw his way
Itachi was not trying to lose he was trying to flush out oro
sasuke was at least able to react to itachi the entire fight

Thank you for noting on this so i did miss something
Itachi let Sasuke react to him.

PrinceofPeace
08-13-2012, 11:25 PM
At best Saskue can tie

TobiramaSenju307
08-14-2012, 12:21 AM
whereas Itachi was trying to lose against Sasuke.
then all his goals were pointless. if he died before his time then oro would stay in sasuke forever


Kakashi couldn't touch Itachi in any way or form wereas sasuke was at least able to fight him.
kakashi was touching reacting and driving back edo jinchuriki

Kakashi has low stamina/chakra, he has to sleep for a week when he uses his sharingan. Sasuke uses his sharingan all the time. Sasuke wins here.
in the current fight alone, kakashis been using sharingan for two days without rest, used at least 3 raikiris, one clone and 2 kamuis and is still standing


kakashi still can not hit Saskue just like he could not hit Deidara
so kakashi didnt warp away deidaras entire exploding clone? he didnt warp away the whole susano arrow and rasengan?

blackluffy
08-14-2012, 05:06 AM
Saskue has EMS does that count???

Saskue still has a better sharigan to use genjutsu with
Saskue is driven by hatred so I doubt he will lose
Saskue has kirin he just needs to use fire a lot
Saskue can summon his hawk and attack from above

1 . yeah but also kakashi has genjutsu
2. i agree
3. yeah but kakashi has a lotttt of jutsu
4. i agree;)

JLI2infinity
08-14-2012, 08:07 AM
Kakashi's built his entire ninja career fighting without MS. He has way more experience in this department. Sasuke's whole offense lately has consisted of strictly MS techniques. Hebi Sasuke was no doubt a powerful opponent but what made him the most dangerous was that he used Cursed Seal to boost his overall power. In his current form he can't do that and that's why he'll lose to Kakashi.

None of Sasuke's katon attacks will work against Kakashi's suiton techniques. Rakiri is stronger than Chidori so if Sasuke were to clash head on like he does against Naruto it would end up with him getting his arm mangled and in worst case scenario his chest ripped open. Genjutsu won't work on Kakashi.

There goes Sasuke's entire offense, he can try kenjutsu but as we saw last chapter Kakashi now knows how to channel raiton chakra into his bladed weapons and as he demonstrated against the Seven Swordsmen, Kakashi is very proficient in kenjutsu as well.

Sasuke's got nothing here literally no advantages...Kakashi on the other hand has clones, more useful summons for ground based combat, higher intelligence, more experience, and a wider array of elemental techniques. Taking away MS does get rid of Kakashi's most powerful technique but it limits Sasuke's entire character.

I'll just repost here because I'm pretty sure I addressed everything in this debate. I don't see why it even needs to keep going. Kakashi wins plain and simple.

Leejjon
08-15-2012, 01:11 AM
[QUOTE=TobiramaSenju307;6190677]in the cur