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SilentBlade
07-31-2012, 06:15 AM
So I had thought about this for a while, and decided maybe it was time to share! There has been a lot of speculation as to question who Tobi is as well as how he gave Nagato the Rinnegan etc..And the more I observed the chapters, the more they got me thinking about the potential for Tobi to be an Uzumaki, but also for the clan Uzumaki to actually be the clan of Rikudo Sennin!

Hear me out on this! we see RS back turned to us in chapter 572, and the mark on his back (from what we can tell) looks like the spirals or the Rinnegan, with the 9 tomoe. Moving forward we see the the Uzumaki clan as the center of the land of whirlpools, one could argue that, like the distinguished clans of the leaf village, so were they of the whirlpool village (thus the village symbol was based off of them).

Going back to my point though, if you look at Naruto throughout the series, he's always had a patch on his arm that is very similar to the symbol on the back of RS's coat in chapter 572, I found that to be an interesting foreshadowing to follow (considering the current fact pattern). Also, if RS was actually an Uzumaki (by clan name) it would make sense that his secret sealing techniques would be passed down through the ages through the clan. Continuing that fact pattern, we saw that Nagato was able to awaken a Rinnegan, and that "Tobi" gave it to him. The general thought here would have been that Tobi knew what was needed to awaken a Rinnegan in an Uzumaki and pursued that! Furthermore, through the series we've said that Naruto is the incarnation of RS, its been said that Nagato was an incarnation of RS and of course Tobi is saying he is as well! so we know 2 out of the 3 people claiming to be or eluded to be the next RS, perhaps the argument could take Tobi to be an uzumaki as well!

If you think about Tobi's extensive knowledge, his long life and the fact that he had knowledge about the seal being lose during Naruto's birth. The knowledge of that particular seal would have only been well known to those in the Uzumaki clan, even the Uchiha clan would not have known the details that well.

well just some thoughts :-)

TastyRamen
07-31-2012, 07:40 AM
The problem I have with most theories regarding Naruto is that most readers think that what Tobi stated about:

• Giving Nagato the Rinnegan
• The RS having two sons, who's descendants were Senju and Uchiha

and basically anything else that readers have based their theories on, is that this information is correct. As far we know, this could be completely false and have no truth to it at all.

However, it was a nice read!

slyfoxx
07-31-2012, 07:48 AM
OK GOOD THEORY. Kishi is throwing out random things and not elaborating on them i want to know what are the path tobi were refering to after the konan fight. I want to know why do the lighting villege have all the tearsures and sage temples and of coarse who or what the hell is tobi.

SilentBlade
07-31-2012, 07:53 AM
@TasteyRamen:

Don't forget, there is a HUGE time period between the Elder and Younger son, to the rise of the Uchiha and Senju. Also we are explicitly told the relationship between the Senju and Uzumaki, and that they are distantly related. With that same logic we could say the Senju and Uchiha are as well, so there really is no linearity involved here, simply speculation that they are more related to the Senju. It does, however, create the linearity to the RS from the Uzumaki clan. Also the Uzumaki clan is the only clan with any sort of technique passed down through RS himself.

@Slyfox
I appreciate that! I wonder also, its a good question as to where a lot of that came from! One could argue that there were Uzumaki who had possession of said treasures that ended up in the cloud village, or that the treasures ended up being stolen, a lot of questions surrounding those things for sure.

As for the temples and what not, its quite possible that it was simply something developed more as containment for failed Jinchuriki who ended up going crazy. Ruins are what they are, and it seams that KB was the first one to unlock or understand the proper mindset he needed to be in, in order to befriend the 8 tails, though he seamed to be one of the few hosts that had atleast SOMEONE from the start.

TastyRamen
07-31-2012, 08:17 AM
@TasteyRamen:

Don't forget, there is a HUGE time period between the Elder and Younger son, to the rise of the Uchiha and Senju. Also we are explicitly told the relationship between the Senju and Uzumaki, and that they are distantly related. With that same logic we could say the Senju and Uchiha are as well, so there really is no linearity involved here, simply speculation that they are more related to the Senju. It does, however, create the linearity to the RS from the Uzumaki clan. Also the Uzumaki clan is the only clan with any sort of technique passed down through RS himself.


Unfortunately, there is absolutely no proof to your above statement. Like I mentioned above, you're believing what Tobi said to be the complete truth, for all we know it's all false. Which to me is quite clever and exciting. Remember when Tobi, mentioned the RS to the Kage's, they thought that he was a myth.

For all we know:

• Tobi could be the RS?
• The RS son's descendants could be Uzumaki and Uchiha and not Senju or Uzumaki and Senju and not Uchiha?
• Tobi could be the elder son, who in turn is Madara and Izuna's father?

I could go on, how Tobi could troll us all.

Naruto321
07-31-2012, 08:23 AM
Unfortunately, there is absolutely no proof to your above statement. Like I mentioned above, you're believing what Tobi said to be the complete truth, for all we know it's all false. Which to me is quite clever and exciting. Remember when Tobi, mentioned the RS to the Kage's, they thought that he was a myth.

For all we know:

They are distantly related

Says in Naruto:Shippuden Episode 247 and a manga chapter where exactly I don't know where.

TastyRamen
07-31-2012, 08:39 AM
@Naruto321

I'm not saying they're not distantly related. All I am saying is that most people are basing their theories on what Tobi said which as far as we know, could be completely false.

Mangetsu Hozuki
07-31-2012, 08:56 AM
Listen, I believe Tobi is an Uchiha, and I'll tell you why. We know that the RS's power was divided in two. In theory, by combining the power of the two sons and/or their clans, we get the original power, the power of the Sage, the Rinnengan.We also know Madara got the Rinnengan, correct? Supposedly, he got it by infusing Senju Clan DNA with his own. So, when Tobi says that he gave Nagato the Rinnengan, he means he combined Uchiha DNA with Nagato's own Uzumaki DNA (which we know is connected to Senju DNA), doing almost exactly what Madara did. We also know Nagato's Rinnengan was not perfect, possibly atributed to the fact that he had Uzumaki DNA, not DNA from the Senju. The equation goes Senju DNA + Uchiha DNA = RS's power/Rinnengan. That's my theory, anyway.

TastyRamen
07-31-2012, 09:01 AM
We know that the RS's power was divided in two.

Do we?

For all we know, he could have had 5 son's.

SilentBlade
07-31-2012, 09:09 AM
we have no idea if it was quite that simple. We know his younger son became the heir though. and with that one can assume that something of substantial importance was attached to that title. The only clan that has anything tangible from them that isn't coded into their DNA would be the Uzumaki, who has the sages sealing techniques. Just some food for thought!

Naruto321
07-31-2012, 09:11 AM
Oh yea, nice one for putting that in.

The Uzumaki are the ones who are like masters of sealing techniques. And I 'm pretyy sure they have encountered the Kyuubi

SilentBlade
07-31-2012, 09:25 AM
One final thought as well. Through history that we've seen, Nagato was able to awaken the Rinnegan and pretty much use it at its highest potential. So much so that he was actually able to bring back the dead after the invasion. That is an important mark, regardless of Tobi saying that he "gave him" the Rinnegan (if we are arguing about Tobi lying or not).

So far we have Nagato who was pretty much a RS incarnation, and now of course Naruto, who we see as an incarnation of RS as well. Regardless of whether or not the story about the 2 sons is accurate or not, proof still stands on the side of the Uzumaki as being the only clan which has successfully pulled the Rinnegan or shown birth with it. I know Madara says he awakened it at the end of his fight with Hashirama, that could potentially link him to RS as well.

All of this is outside the need for the story, and simply connected to RS! we're also shown RS standing with (what I assume) is his clan symbol on the back of his jacket (as the Uchiha usually are shown having), which looks pretty close to what Naruto has on his arm.

Just some additional thoughts!

Phacade
08-01-2012, 04:40 AM
Quite technically, both the Uzamaki (and by extension the Senju) Clan and the Uchiha Clans are both the clan of the Rikudo Sennin.

SilentBlade
08-01-2012, 06:47 AM
Quite technically, both the Uzamaki (and by extension the Senju) Clan and the Uchiha Clans are both the clan of the Rikudo Sennin.

More or less, yes! If we say that we don't trust a word Tobi says, then saying the Senju and Uchiha are descendants of RS is hard to say because we simply don't know if that is true or a lot of crap to create a "hopelessness" for Naruto when it comes to Sasuke.

My statement is that the legend is known, and we are given images of him outside of the context of the story Tobi tells us. Jiraya tells us that the eyes that Nagato has are in fact the eyes of the Sage, which is interesting and connects the Uzumaki further to RS (Kakashi being a non-native dojutsu user shows that a non-native user of such a hefty dojutsu would probably kill him). We further that by showing that all the sharingans are covered on Danzo, Kakashi and the Byakugan by the hidden mist (forgot his name) that are non-native jutsu users. We've also got the tools etc...that sort of shows that its a native part of the Uzumaki DNA. That said, and connecting the sealing jutsus that have been passed down through the family, we draw a conclusion that the uzumaki are in fact perhaps more closely related to RS than either the Senju and Uchiha.

The only thing the Uchiha have going for them would be that Madara claims to have awakened the Rinnegan at the end. The problem I still have with this is that he hasn't actually used it yet! this is the only sort of way one can make a claim (remember, outside of the story told by Tobi) that they are related. Furthermore no evidence exists, outside the story, that the Senju are even related to RS. We are shown 2 examples of extraordinary Senju, but we are also told that Hiruzan Sarutobi was also extraordinarily strong in his prime. The only Senju we are left with would be Tsunade, who is strong, but doesn't seam anything exceptional (to the level of her grandfather and great uncle that is).

paradigm1977
08-01-2012, 07:17 AM
The only thing that brings this into question is why Tobi, if he is Uzumaki, didn't just steal Nagato's eyes when he was alive... either as a boy or later?

Madara knew of Nagato as a boy, and Madara and Tobi had the Eye of the moon plan. So Tobi most likely knew Nagato as a boy. Maybe was his sensei after Jiraiya. But still, if Tobi is Uzumaki, and the rinne's are that powerful, I think he would have taken them sooner.


In support of this theory, it might expain why Tobi wants war to end. Because his village was destroyed.

SilentBlade
08-01-2012, 07:34 AM
The only thing that brings this into question is why Tobi, if he is Uzumaki, didn't just steal Nagato's eyes when he was alive... either as a boy or later?

Madara knew of Nagato as a boy, and Madara and Tobi had the Eye of the moon plan. So Tobi most likely knew Nagato as a boy. Maybe was his sensei after Jiraiya. But still, if Tobi is Uzumaki, and the rinne's are that powerful, I think he would have taken them sooner.


In support of this theory, it might expain why Tobi wants war to end. Because his village was destroyed.

We are told, more or less, that he intended Nagato to use the Rinnegan to bring him back to life if he died (I guess he assumes he'll die at some point, sooner than later). That said, he needed someone else to have the Rinnegan and simply control that individual.