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SilentBlade
07-10-2012, 12:36 PM
This may be an odd question to ask, considering what we saw with Madara, but potentially speaking, might the Sharingan be the result of the Rinnegan being sealed with something similar to the cursed seal of heaven?

First portion of this thought process:
We see Madara with the Rinnegan, but we also see him revived with a portion of Hashirama Senju grafted to his shoulder, which means that the Sharingan alone won't awaken it. With the DNA properly in place and with the amount one could argue that he was able to awaken it based on the state in which he was revived, not prior to receiving the senju DNA. When he is revived it is revealed that he is said to have been revived in his prime, or a more perfect form than perhaps when he died. But it does stand to reason that he was not simply able to awaken the Rinnegan through simple will alone, he needed the DNA from the Senju to be a part of him. But why is that DNA so important? I would state that its not the DNA that's important but more the power to unseal the Rinnegan and make full use of it.

Second portion of the thought process:
We know the similarities of the cursed mark of heaven and the sharingan in appearance, but lets not forget there are similarities in actuality. First of all we know the sharingan uses a tremendous amount of chakra, the mark on the body increases the amount of chakra to the user (almost a reverse effect).

In the second stage of the Cursed seal of heaven, we see black flames and even further a transformation into something with comparable power to the Naruto with atleast 1 tail out (this based on when they were kids of course). One could make the comparison from the second stage sharingan, the black flames (Amaterasu) and the beastly transformation (projection of Susan'o which looked equally dark as Sasuke did when he was transformed).

Third part of the though process:
We know that the Uchiha have been referred to as the "cursed clan" and more than likely for a reason other than the processes of attaining power (we know that all high powered jutsu come at a high cost, the the MS/EMS should be no different), one could argue that it is a result of that first battle between the elder and younger sons of Rikudo Sennin. This may be an assumption on my part, but during their initial battle, I would state that the younger son won (if the elder son won, he'd have likely killed off the younger). With that stated, I would then go so far as to state that the younger son could not bring himself to kill his older brother, so instead he sealed off most of the power of the Rinnegan with that mark, still leaving him with substantial power, but nothing as powerful as it once was. If you observe the Tomoe of the Sharingan vs. the Cursed seal of heave, they are opposites, the cursed seal of heaven infuses power, where one could argue the sharingan limits power. Thats not to say it wouldn't be substantial, but by comparison it probably is much less substantial.

The idea here is that the DNA itself isn't enough, and perhaps even the scroll contained information about how to unseal the Rinnegan (considering Orochimaru's experiments with the cursed seal markings).

The only thing I have a hard time sorting out is Nagato. One could argue that it works in a single direction of someone with a Sharingan achieving a Rinnegan through undoing the cursed seal, but in the other direction it doesn't hold up so well. That said, the only potentially possible thing is that the Uzumaki are primed to awaken the Rinnegan in a similar way that the MS is apparently awakened. We could argue that Nagato experienced something of truly horrifying personal trauma, and we have yet to see Naruto personally experience something like that. However that's all speculation and could be wrong..just a thought though as I consider whats in the scroll and its relationship to Orochimaru.

Larry01239
07-10-2012, 12:39 PM
Who ever said Sharingan was an evolution in the first place?

SilentBlade
07-10-2012, 12:45 PM
It's been implied a lot of place. The idea of succession went:

Sharingan->MS->EMS->Rinnegan in some sense of the order. The idea that has been tossed around on here has been that its simply a combination of the DNA between Senju and Uchiha to awaken the Rinnegan, however I would argue that its not so simple, and there is more to this idea. The issue I still have is how Nagato ended up with it.

Larry01239
07-10-2012, 12:46 PM
The sharingan came from rinnegan, but not an evolution. more a regression

Sasuke726
07-10-2012, 12:47 PM
Well thought out theory. Not saying you are riight or wrong, but you propose a very stimulating idea. Good job with your effort.

SilentBlade
07-10-2012, 12:50 PM
The sharingan came from rinnegan, but not an evolution. more a regression

maybe mutation would be a better word? I am not sure how to put it, but the general idea is that they are derivative from each other in some way. The way is the mystery and Nagato adds to that even more.

@Sasuke Thank you very much :-)

Larry01239
07-10-2012, 12:55 PM
Nagato's rinnegan is actually a mutation of the original

SilentBlade
07-10-2012, 01:03 PM
Nagato's rinnegan is actually a mutation of the original

Right, but if we say that the Uzumaki are more closely related to the Senju then it would hold up that they have the incredible about of life force. That said, perhaps that same distant relationship with the senju is the same distance to the Uchiha? perhaps that was why the Uzumaki and not another Senju was chosen to be the jinchuriki, since it was closer to a neutral selection.

Like i said, all speculation :-)

paradigm1977
07-10-2012, 09:14 PM
Right, but if we say that the Uzumaki are more closely related to the Senju then it would hold up that they have the incredible about of life force. That said, perhaps that same distant relationship with the senju is the same distance to the Uchiha? perhaps that was why the Uzumaki and not another Senju was chosen to be the jinchuriki, since it was closer to a neutral selection.

Like i said, all speculation :-)


True on the Uzumaki. To take it a step further. While both the Senju and Uchiha are descended from each son, other bloodlines must have been as well. The senju have more fame than the Uzumaki, so there history is better remembered, but the uzumaki might have a more pure bloodline descent from the brothers...maybe than either the Senju or Uchiha.

theory, if the uzumaki are so famed for seals, I wonder if it is purely due to knowledge, or viatlity too, or vitality as a big indicator. If it's the last one, than Uzumaki may be more likely to have a type of chakra that would be good with time/space, since seals are related. And since Tobiramna, a distant relative used it. And for Naruto, his dad.

Neaohi
07-10-2012, 09:17 PM
No. Even said by everyone it is.

paradigm1977
07-10-2012, 09:28 PM
First portion of this thought process:
We see Madara with the Rinnegan, but we also see him revived with a portion of Hashirama Senju grafted to his shoulder, which means that the Sharingan alone won't awaken it. With the DNA properly in place and with the amount one could argue that he was able to awaken it based on the state in which he was revived, not prior to receiving the senju DNA. When he is revived it is revealed that he is said to have been revived in his prime, or a more perfect form than perhaps when he died. But it does stand to reason that he was not simply able to awaken the Rinnegan through simple will alone, he needed the DNA from the Senju to be a part of him. But why is that DNA so important? I would state that its not the DNA that's important but more the power to unseal the Rinnegan and make full use of it.

Madara awakened it before he died. According to him. So he has already used the Senju DNA. He does not directly state, to my memory, that he needed that for the rinnegan. It is stated by Tobi that you need senju and Uchiha DNA for Izanagi.

Kabuto's better science further mixed in senju DNA to push Madara's body/ability even further.

It is possible that Uzumaki DNA can also stand in for Senju DNA. It might also be that Uzumaki's can develop a rinnegan easier than any other clan. Unless Nagato's eyes are Madara's, It took Madara most of his life to find/unlock whatever, the rinnegan, when Nagato got them as a boy. And if you do need senju and dna for rinnegan, and the eyes are Nagato's, than that means not only can Uzumaki stand in for both bloodlines put together, but that Uzumaki's can use Izanagi.

And Naruto is even more like the Sage.

More food for thought.




The only thing I have a hard time sorting out is Nagato. One could argue that it works in a single direction of someone with a Sharingan achieving a Rinnegan through undoing the cursed seal, but in the other direction it doesn't hold up so well. That said, the only potentially possible thing is that the Uzumaki are primed to awaken the Rinnegan in a similar way that the MS is apparently awakened. We could argue that Nagato experienced something of truly horrifying personal trauma, and we have yet to see Naruto personally experience something like that. However that's all speculation and could be wrong..just a thought though as I consider whats in the scroll and its relationship to Orochimaru.

Maybe the scroll says Uzumaki are the true bosses, and now Sasuke wants Oro's help to get more powerful!!!

That would be a kishi surprise. bit of a letdown though.

SilentBlade
07-11-2012, 05:26 AM
you're potentially right Paradigm! I am not sure if Madara had the extra DNA to push himself further or not to unlock the Rinnegan before death, but it seams like he must have figured something out. My thought though is that the Sharingan is a sealed version with something similar to the Cursed Seal of Heaven, considering its effects.

Also, consider this, perhaps the Uzumaki (having their expertise on seals) were able to unlock the seal? I am not sure, the whole Uzumaki with a Rinnegan throws me a bit, but something along those lines makes sense.

megabbaut
07-11-2012, 05:59 AM
The Sharingan was never an evolution in the first place, much less to the Rinnegan or the Byakugan. EMS does not evolve into the Rinnegan. It's a completely different Doujutsu earned when combining Uchiha and Senju DNA (Madara got it when he got Hashirama's face on his arm)

Narutorious
07-11-2012, 06:06 AM
It is likely that you need both Senju and Uchiha DNA to achieved the Rinnegan, the only 2 people who has the Rinnegan both has Uchiha and Senju DNA, Madara & Tobi(though we still don't know how he got it, it could possibly be Madara's), we know Madara fought Harishama to attain some of his DNA, and honestly I don't see why they would want Harishama's DNA if it wasn't a requirement to achieved the Rinnegan since they can control the tail beasts with their Sharingans. As for Nagato, Tobi said he gave his Rinnegan to Nagato, I don't see why he would lied to Konan about it.

SilentBlade
07-11-2012, 06:22 AM
The Sharingan was never an evolution in the first place, much less to the Rinnegan or the Byakugan. EMS does not evolve into the Rinnegan. It's a completely different Doujutsu earned when combining Uchiha and Senju DNA (Madara got it when he got Hashirama's face on his arm)

ah, but are they all different? we're told that there are a lot of similarities between the Byakugan, Sharingan and Rinnegan. We're told that the Sharingan found its origins in the Hyuga, and we're told that the Uchiha were considered decedents of the Elder son, so somewhere down the line, the Elder son who possessed the Rinnegan, through generations something happened.

The question is what? Also we know that the RInnegan is required to read the entire tablet left by SoSP to the Uchiha clan. That said, I would stand by my statement of the Sharingan being a sealed version of the RInnegan, and the need for Senju DNA (or DNA with the life force of the younger son) is so that the user has the power then to unseal the eye.

Uchiha Sora
07-11-2012, 07:25 AM
Technically it is an evolution, but it's an inferior one

SilentBlade
07-11-2012, 07:39 AM
Technically it is an evolution, but it's an inferior one

yeah, the word I should have used was "derivative" instead of evolution, but yeah I do fumble words at times :-p

Kyūbi no Yōko
07-11-2012, 09:14 AM
If you could check my posts (I'm on an iPad and I'm too lazy to go and copy it), find my debate with Rikudo Sage about whether or not the Rinnegan is the final stage of Sharingan.

SilentBlade
07-11-2012, 09:29 AM
Its not so much the final stage as perhaps the sealed state of it. Or atleast that is what I am looking to show.

Rikudo Sage
07-11-2012, 03:53 PM
If you could check my posts (I'm on an iPad and I'm too lazy to go and copy it), find my debate with Rikudo Sage about whether or not the Rinnegan is the final stage of Sharingan.

Now that I just remember it.. You just got owned on that debate. :ugeek:

nine-tails chakra armor
07-11-2012, 06:08 PM
Ok I compare the whole sharingan to riningan by naruto and his recent modes berserk nine tails base( sharingan) control nine tails chakra ( ms) work with kuramo his new mode. ( ems)Now here's the twist. If we put naruto as jyubi it's the strongest form ( riningan is strongest ocular jutsu. So6p had it. Now what do we know of its powers nothin but what we saw from Nagato. Madara didn't really use it and neither did Tobi. Let say sasuke gets it with his knowledge he could turn riningan into the lvl so6p had. Just a theory. Ringingan ISINT an evolution but more of an completion. For it to be an evolution sharingan wouldn't exist anymore but Tobi has both. think of it as a completion. I like the sealed idea. naruto struggled with the sealed nine tails but when he came to understand kuramo he didn't need the seal cuz they work together. also look at the moment they start to its like naruto and kuramo became complete and also notice when they did that gate disappeared. release of seal. This just my take on it. Oh yea Tobi said with his sharingan that he wasn't complete and when he finally gets his riningan back he feels Complete and heads off to battle

SilentBlade
07-12-2012, 05:40 AM
as I said, maybe the word "derivative" would be a better phrase to connect the Sharingan and Rinnegan. I am curious to see what happens with the rinnegan in terms of all the powers being put into a single user. I am not sure if Nagato did it the way he did because his body simply could not handle it all on its own or if it was just the only way.

I thought about the cursed seal of heaven being potentially part of what happened just because it looks like it would make sense in terms of effects of the seal on the body and the unlocked MS abilities. I mean it could all be non-sense, but it made me think :-p

paradigm1977
07-12-2012, 07:02 AM
It makes sense to look at it as powers locked in the eye.

MS and EMS potential are in every sharingan. The DNA is already there. The emotional aspect of best friend dying would not change the DNA. It causes emotions and some chemical release in your body... or some kind of magic, if they are truly cursed.

But if not every sharingan can use susanoo, even if in MS form, then maybe not every Uchiha can unlock or free the sharingan restraints to get to rinnegan.

SilentBlade
07-12-2012, 08:44 AM
It makes sense to look at it as powers locked in the eye.

MS and EMS potential are in every sharingan. The DNA is already there. The emotional aspect of best friend dying would not change the DNA. It causes emotions and some chemical release in your body... or some kind of magic, if they are truly cursed.

But if not every sharingan can use susanoo, even if in MS form, then maybe not every Uchiha can unlock or free the sharingan restraints to get to rinnegan.

You are right, though I don't think its going to be an "emotional" so much in terms that you have to feel a particular emotion to unlock the MS. The best way to describe that feeling is a situation of dire need where you push yourself well beyond the limit, like when you hear about people who get "super human strength" in a situation where they would have to lift a car off of another person. Something like that!

Susano's isn't unattainable by those with the MS, but I believe you need to have awaken the MS in both eyes. I guess in some instances some of the Uchiha who awoken the MS were only able to awaken one and not both?

once the MS would be awakened, the cursed mark of heaven would be activated, and at the cost of the great power it would cause irreparable damage to the eye, eventually sealing it off forever.

How does the EMS work then? the curse is typically attached to the person who is born into it, atleast that's the theory. That said, another flow of chakra through the cursed eyes would not be effected because the curse to those born to it would not be applying the chakra to their eyes, thus the cursed seal would not be activated.

The only reason I started this thing with the seal though, is because Nagato had the eyes, and natural sealing ability. I am not sure if that ability is considered ingrained in the Uzumaki or not, however through that event and the desire to protect those close to him, he somehow unsealed his hidden ability.

However by summoning the Gedo (a symbol of heretical nature in Buddhism) he went down the wrong path, and perhaps that is why he was damned and cursed not to be able to act on his own accord, with a limitation placed on his power. (He had to divide his chakra 7 ways to access the paths).

Just my thoughts :-)

Rikudo Sage
07-12-2012, 09:41 AM
Didnt just Kabuto confirm that the curse seal is just to gather nature energy?
Oro learned how to use the curse seal from Ryuchi cave that is why Sasuke is transforming to something like dragon everytime he uses it. I dont see how is this being connected to awakening the Rinnegan.

On topic.. Rinnegan is different doujutsu.. Its relation to Sharringan is completely just the same with how the Byakugan related to Sharringan. Its just a MUTATION rather than EVOLUTION.

Madara fought Hashirama in the purpose of obtaining his DNA. Next Madara stated that he awakened the Rinnegan SHORTLY before he died. This implies that he experimented and altered his own DNA by combining Hashirama DNA to unlock the Rinnegan. He mutated his EMS to Sharringan and its not evolution.

That's just my assumption though.

SilentBlade
07-12-2012, 09:47 AM
You could be on to something Rikudo, dealing with the nature energy, however I believe we saw through the series that nature energy is incredibly hard to control, and requires specific training otherwise the transformation can cause the "petrified <insert animal> effect.

I say the Rinnegan is related to the sharingan based on the fact that you need the Rinnegan to be able to read the tablet left by SoSP. The sharingan can read it to a lesser extent, thus I believe it is a derivative of it.

Rikudo Sage
07-12-2012, 01:24 PM
You could be on to something Rikudo, dealing with the nature energy, however I believe we saw through the series that nature energy is incredibly hard to control, and requires specific training otherwise the transformation can cause the "petrified <insert animal> effect.

There is slight difference when it comes to the risk of entering Senjutsu using Ryuchido's way...

The risk of being petrified only applies to Frog Senjutsu. Remember Juugo's bloodline ability can absorb Nature energy but sometimes when they couldnt control it instead turning into a stone they are just being berserk. This suggests that Snake Sage mode risk is to go berserk + transforming to dragon while Frog Sage mode risk is to transform to a frog and be petrified.

I say the Rinnegan is related to the sharingan based on the fact that you need the Rinnegan to be able to read the tablet left by SoSP. The sharingan can read it to a lesser extent, thus I believe it is a derivative of it.

Ok.. if thats how you defined it.. I have my own.. :lol:

Kyūbi no Yōko
07-14-2012, 02:15 AM
Now that I just remember it.. You just got owned on that debate. :ugeek:

Not really, no.
We both make sense in a sort of way.

It's up to Kishi to decide.

What I was trying to say in that debate was that Rinnegan was related to the Sharingan, but I supported the part that it was an evolution, not a mutation.

paradigm1977
07-20-2012, 06:36 PM
Well we all know "evolution," was used because evolving typically means a better improvement and the rinnegan is better.

I don't mind using the term incorrectly.

anyway. The tablet is important. Both that you need MS, EMS, rinegan to progress, as well as that it is in the Uchiha hideout. And the older son received the eyes. And that those that 2 Uchihas, Tobi and Madara have claimed to have rinne's in the past, and they both knew Nagato, who also did.

That's enough links for me to be convinced.

Although....The original version of the eyes may have come from the juubi. As in the Juubi mutated the sage. And that mutation was passed down.

Naruto321
07-20-2012, 06:40 PM
Although....The original version of the eyes may have come from the juubi. As in the Juubi mutated the sage. And that mutation was passed down.

Mutated in what way?

SilentBlade
07-20-2012, 09:50 PM
I don't think the Juubi mutated the sage at all. Sure it effected him, but I don't think mutation had anything to do with it.

gaarapwnsu
07-21-2012, 06:35 PM
But the rinnegan is a downgrade from a sharingan

SilentBlade
07-21-2012, 08:56 PM
But the rinnegan is a downgrade from a sharingan

The Rinnegan is an upgrade from the Sharingan. To control the Rinnegan, its basically to control life and death itself, the 6 paths and potentially every KG and KT. Its absurd the power potential if you think about what it means.

The sharingan has been showcased a LOT more, thus it has the appearance of being more powerful, but I assure the Rinnegan is where its at!

gaarapwnsu
07-22-2012, 01:43 AM
The Rinnegan is an upgrade from the Sharingan. To control the Rinnegan, its basically to control life and death itself, the 6 paths and potentially every KG and KT. Its absurd the power potential if you think about what it means.

The sharingan has been showcased a LOT more, thus it has the appearance of being more powerful, but I assure the Rinnegan is where its at!

But rinnegan has been beaten not the ems

Maruko
07-22-2012, 02:39 AM
Rinnegan FTW.

paradigm1977
07-22-2012, 04:27 PM
Mutated in what way?

I'm tossing out the idea that maybe the Sage didn't have a dojutsu, the juubi did.

You can of course assume the sage had the rinnegan and the juubi had the rinnegan with tomoes.

But maybe he got the dojutsu from the Juubi. I don't have a true opinion on this. So that is why I say the juubi mutated the Sage, because maybe his eyes changed after. If so, it mutated his dna, since the dojutsu was passed to a son.

Naruto321
07-22-2012, 06:20 PM
I'm tossing out the idea that maybe the Sage didn't have a dojutsu, the juubi did.

You can of course assume the sage had the rinnegan and the juubi had the rinnegan with tomoes.

But maybe he got the dojutsu from the Juubi. I don't have a true opinion on this. So that is why I say the juubi mutated the Sage, because maybe his eyes changed after. If so, it mutated his dna, since the dojutsu was passed to a son.

What about The Uchiha Clan Ancestor does he have Dojutsu.

paradigm1977
07-22-2012, 10:11 PM
What about The Uchiha Clan Ancestor does he have Dojutsu.

Yes, that's the older son I was speaking of. He has a rinnegan, but instead of concentric, circles, there is one line swirls around until it reaches the center. Not even the same as Rikudo.

Maruko
07-23-2012, 01:25 AM
^Like the Uzumaki logo.

SilentBlade
07-23-2012, 04:49 AM
But rinnegan has been beaten not the ems

You're right, it was beaten by Naruto going all out Kyuubi, and uncontrolled Kyuubi at that. However we've not seen that kind of battle with the EMS, and in fact we haven't seen the EMS really used by itself outside of Sasuke..Now I know, "what about Madara," well Madara actually has the Rinnegan active, which leads me to believe that the reason we saw Nagato defeated was perhaps his lack of understanding of the full power that went along with the Rinnegan (even though he was able to pretty much obliterate the village himself).

So, as I said, we see the PERFECT Sussan'o, and perhaps that goes along with the Rinnegan, maybe not. It does seam to be additional to the power of it, because from what I saw the Rinnegan retains the powers of the Sharingan and then some.

Stoffy Uzumaki :)
07-23-2012, 04:54 AM
The rinnengan is the evolved version of the sharigan isnt it?

Rikudo Sage
07-23-2012, 06:59 AM
Not really, no.
We both make sense in a sort of way.

It's up to Kishi to decide.

What I was trying to say in that debate was that Rinnegan was related to the Sharingan, but I supported the part that it was an evolution, not a mutation.

Nope.. There are few who agreed with my argument.. My reasoning has more votes than yours so review that thread again specially the last part.. That debate was fun it increased my reps drastically.

Yeah its up to Kishi to decide.. He loves to break rules and throlling us anyway but since this topic is not being disclosed yet we can only rely on logical basis in explaining our thoughts and this is why I dont like to go with Evolutuon side..

The Difference of EVOLUTION and MUTATION

WHAT IS A MUTATION?
A mutation is a permanent change in the DNA sequence of a gene. Mutations in a gene's DNA sequence can alter the amino acid sequence of the protein encoded by the gene. Google it.

EVOLUTION is exactly the process in which the 2 Tomoe sharringan evolves to 3 Tomoe Sharringan and later it evolves again to MS then EMS. In this process the user did not need to ALTER his DNA to evolve the Sharringan.

MUTATION is the process in which is required to ALTER ones DNA unlike EVOLUTION. Madara fought Hashirama for the purpose of collecting Hashi DNA.. as Tobi stated. So Rinnegan is a perfect example of MUTATION.


Although....The original version of the eyes may have come from the juubi. As in the Juubi mutated the sage. And that mutation was passed down.

The Juubi had Shar-Rinnegan ( 9 Tomoe w/ Rinnegan ) so its not possible to Mutate it because although the Rikudo became its host still the Juubi's doujutsu is not hereditary.

As the Rikudo's bloodline continue to pass from generations to generations.. His DNA became weak and altered thus Sharringan and Byakugan were born.

Rena-Chan
07-23-2012, 07:42 AM
I never heard of that...but maybe....
Idk honestly XD

paradigm1977
07-24-2012, 10:55 PM
The Juubi had Shar-Rinnegan ( 9 Tomoe w/ Rinnegan ) so its not possible to Mutate it because although the Rikudo became its host still the Juubi's doujutsu is not hereditary.

As the Rikudo's bloodline continue to pass from generations to generations.. His DNA became weak and altered thus Sharringan and Byakugan were born.

How would you know if your first paragraph was true and not a guess? Sharingan's are hereditary, that is why only the Uchiha have them. Mutations can also be hereditary. And I am not arguing mutating what you call the Shar-rinnigan. It's the DNA of the Juubi mutating the sage (you have the wrong target of the mutation) to get a lesser version of the dojutsu.

Neaohi
07-24-2012, 11:00 PM
How would you know if your first paragraph was true and not a guess? Sharingan's are hereditary, that is why only the Uchiha have them. Mutations can also be hereditary. And I am not arguing mutating what you call the Shar-rinnigan. It's the DNA of the Juubi mutating the sage (you have the wrong target of the mutation) to get a lesser version of the dojutsu.

Correct man is correct

The Rinnegan is confirmed to be the evolution of the EMS.

Black Azurite
07-24-2012, 11:07 PM
bro madara had EMS b4 rinnegan, im pretty sure it requires 2 sharingans of equal power to get rinnegan naturally

Naruto321
07-24-2012, 11:10 PM
So its Sharingan ---> MS --> +2 Sharingans --> EMS --> Rinnegan?

Black Azurite
07-24-2012, 11:11 PM
^ agreed

Maruko
07-25-2012, 12:18 AM
So its Sharingan ---> MS --> +2 Sharingans --> EMS --> Rinnegan?

That's what they say.


You newer guys, check my ancient Rinne theories, maybe they're worth something.
http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=113512
http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=112738

SilentBlade
07-25-2012, 06:01 AM
So its Sharingan ---> MS --> +2 Sharingans --> EMS --> Rinnegan?

That is the general thought. However my purpose with this theory was to state that it actually went with the Rinnegan being sealed in the form of the Sharingan. I called similarities between the 3 tomoe that the sharingan had vs the cursed seal of heaven and stated that while the curse seal of heaven had its purpose of infusing power into an individual, the sharingan had its purpose of limiting power (if you look at the 2, the Tomoe are in opposite directions).

I also called similarities between the flames of Amaterasu and the black flames that become present using the cursed seal of heaven, the monster like form of transformation as well as the monster like form of Susan'o

That said, it also stands to reason that the reason Senju DNA is needed by the Uchiha is to have the strength of body to OPEN the seal and release the Rinnegan back to its true form. The only thing that throws me for a loop is Nagato. And the only thing I can come up with for that is that the Uzumaki are that middle clan or "missing link" that ties the Uchiha and Senju together.

How can I rationalize that? that special chakra that we look at here would have to be both the power of the Senju and Uchiha to control and restrain the power of the Kyuubi. Also, there would still be a substantial amount of distrust between 2 clans like this, so to entrust either clan with the Kyuubi would be highly unlikely! However a clan in the middle, related to both would be suitable and more than likely acceptable! so! enter the Uzumaki.

Rikudo Sage
07-25-2012, 06:50 AM
How would you know if your first paragraph was true and not a guess? Sharingan's are hereditary, that is why only the Uchiha have them. Mutations can also be hereditary. And I am not arguing mutating what you call the Shar-rinnigan. It's the DNA of the Juubi mutating the sage (you have the wrong target of the mutation) to get a lesser version of the dojutsu.

Mutation is a change to something better or weaker because of DNA being altered. EVOLUTION means to change to something better.. Even if something has changed from perfect to weak version we can still call it a MUTATION as long as there is a change with DNA.

Nope, its not a guess its an opinion base on the chapters were shown to us. Re-read chap 467 starting from pg 12.

When Tobi narrating the story to the 5 Kages of how the Rikudo became the 1st Jinchuriki.. It was sequential and in chronological order.. The very 1st page that the Rikudo was shown before fighting the Juubi.. He had Rinnegan without chakra shroud and no Magatama necklace and then after he defeated the Juubi and became its host.. The Rikudo gained chakra shroud and 6 Magatama necklace indicating that he already sealed the Juubi inside him at that point the Rikudo still had Rinnegan not Shar-Rinnegan.

When the page of the Rikudo fighting Juubi was shown.. The Juubi had Shar-Rinnegan..

Shar-Rinnegan and Rinnegan are not the same doujutsu.. The Rinnegan can mutate to a weaker version and that is Sharringan. The Uchiha's have Sharringan because it came from the Rikudo's DNA which is Rinnegan and not from the Juubi.

Not saying i'm right.. Just sharing discussion with you. :D

SilentBlade
07-25-2012, 08:47 AM
Mutation is a change to something better or weaker because of DNA being altered. EVOLUTION means to change to something better.. Even if something has changed from perfect to weak version we can still call it a MUTATION as long as there is a change with DNA.

Nope, its not a guess its an opinion base on the chapters were shown to us. Re-read chap 467 starting from pg 12.

When Tobi narrating the story to the 5 Kages of how the Rikudo became the 1st Jinchuriki.. It was sequential and in chronological order.. The very 1st page that the Rikudo was shown before fighting the Juubi.. He had Rinnegan without chakra shroud and no Magatama necklace and then after he defeated the Juubi and became its host.. The Rikudo gained chakra shroud and 6 Magatama necklace indicating that he already sealed the Juubi inside him at that point the Rikudo still had Rinnegan not Shar-Rinnegan.

When the page of the Rikudo fighting Juubi was shown.. The Juubi had Shar-Rinnegan..

Shar-Rinnegan and Rinnegan are not the same doujutsu.. The Rinnegan can mutate to a weaker version and that is Sharringan. The Uchiha's have Sharringan because it came from the Rikudo's DNA which is Rinnegan and not from the Juubi.

Not saying i'm right.. Just sharing discussion with you. :D

That is actually not a bad thought. Consider for a moment the distinguishing marks that ended up on Naruto because he was born to the Kyuubi Jinchuriki. Then of course there were those same marks on the gold and silver brothers who also essentially had a part of the Kyuubi as part of them. The argument could be stated that the Sharingan was simply that distinguishing mark placed on the elder son.

Now, I know "He has the Rinnegan" yeah, you're right! However he also had the strength to activate it and use it. The big "what if" would be if the Sharingan and Rinnegan were simply unrelated! The sharingan arose from being born to a family with the Juubi host as a parent, thus being a separate dojutsu completely.

paradigm1977
07-25-2012, 11:03 AM
Mutation is a change to something better or weaker because of DNA being altered. EVOLUTION means to change to something better.. Even if something has changed from perfect to weak version we can still call it a MUTATION as long as there is a change with DNA.

Nope, its not a guess its an opinion base on the chapters were shown to us. Re-read chap 467 starting from pg 12.

When Tobi narrating the story to the 5 Kages of how the Rikudo became the 1st Jinchuriki.. It was sequential and in chronological order.. The very 1st page that the Rikudo was shown before fighting the Juubi.. He had Rinnegan without chakra shroud and no Magatama necklace and then after he defeated the Juubi and became its host.. The Rikudo gained chakra shroud and 6 Magatama necklace indicating that he already sealed the Juubi inside him at that point the Rikudo still had Rinnegan not Shar-Rinnegan.

When the page of the Rikudo fighting Juubi was shown.. The Juubi had Shar-Rinnegan..

Shar-Rinnegan and Rinnegan are not the same doujutsu.. The Rinnegan can mutate to a weaker version and that is Sharringan. The Uchiha's have Sharringan because it came from the Rikudo's DNA which is Rinnegan and not from the Juubi.

Not saying i'm right.. Just sharing discussion with you. :D

Yes I see. According to Tobi's flash the sage had rinnegan beforehad. So we can throw out that guess of the Juubi gave it as mutation. But what you quoted was the part about a mutation being hereditary and it can be. Now we don't truly know that the sharingan doesn't originate with the juubi in this case, since the juubi had both or a combination.

So your point actually raises the question on how the rinnegan evolved and if the Sage's was altered by the juubi's. The older sons eyes are still not the same as his fathers. And not the same as Nagato's or ET Madara.

And the sage doesn't have to show the eye change to shar-rinnegan himself. The mutation of genes can be carried down without that. We already know the rinnegan in genetics would be a recessive gene, not dominant, due to the rarity.

Rikudo Sage
07-26-2012, 09:36 AM
Yes I see. According to Tobi's flash the sage had rinnegan beforehad. So we can throw out that guess of the Juubi gave it as mutation. But what you quoted was the part about a mutation being hereditary and it can be. Now we don't truly know that the sharingan doesn't originate with the juubi in this case, since the juubi had both or a combination.

So your point actually raises the question on how the rinnegan evolved and if the Sage's was altered by the juubi's. The older sons eyes are still not the same as his fathers. And not the same as Nagato's or ET Madara.

And the sage doesn't have to show the eye change to shar-rinnegan himself. The mutation of genes can be carried down without that. We already know the rinnegan in genetics would be a recessive gene, not dominant, due to the rarity.

So we both agree that Rikudo's rinnegan is not a mutation of Juubi's Shar-Rinnegan.. Great.! :D

I see your point and it could be very possible that Shar-Rinnegan is a combination of Rinnegan and Sharringan originated from it. I can't deny that..

However, when I said the Juubi's Shar-Rinnegan is not hereditary.. I said that directly as it is, because I don't think that Rikudo's sealing Juubi inside Him affects His DNA. What the Rikudo did is just He sealed the Juubi inside him but they didnt completely merged. Its true that His chakra is affected but Juubi is still a different entity inside the cage. Therefore the Rikudo's DNA was not changed nor altered.

Mutation begins when the Rikudo had two sons because of DNA change. His DNA (Senju Ancestor DNA + Uchiha Ancestor DNA) being splitted into two. Thus the Older Son had different doujutsu. What kind of doujutsu is that is yet to be explained.

Kyūbi no Yōko
07-26-2012, 11:05 AM
Nope.. There are few who agreed with my argument.. My reasoning has more votes than yours so review that thread again specially the last part.. That debate was fun it increased my reps drastically.

Yeah its up to Kishi to decide.. He loves to break rules and throlling us anyway but since this topic is not being disclosed yet we can only rely on logical basis in explaining our thoughts and this is why I dont like to go with Evolutuon side..

The Difference of EVOLUTION and MUTATION

WHAT IS A MUTATION?
A mutation is a permanent change in the DNA sequence of a gene. Mutations in a gene's DNA sequence can alter the amino acid sequence of the protein encoded by the gene. Google it.

EVOLUTION is exactly the process in which the 2 Tomoe sharringan evolves to 3 Tomoe Sharringan and later it evolves again to MS then EMS. In this process the user did not need to ALTER his DNA to evolve the Sharringan.

MUTATION is the process in which is required to ALTER ones DNA unlike EVOLUTION. Madara fought Hashirama for the purpose of collecting Hashi DNA.. as Tobi stated. So Rinnegan is a perfect example of MUTATION.


Funny thing is, we weren't counting other people's votes.
And nobody can say he's right, I mean, we still don't know the truth, so it doesn't make sense to say that you were right. Maybe your theory was most likely to happen, but Kishi can decide to not follow that logic.


I think the reason that Madara and Tobi needed Senju DNA in order to obtain the Rinnegan was that you would need the body / life force in order to use it, since it's the most powerful Dojutsu ever. A normal body, with no great body force wouldn't be able to wield such power because it could probably eat up his Chakra.

The reason that Nagato was able to use the Rinnegan was that he was an Uzumaki, you see, you don't need Uchiha and Senju DNA for it, you just need good body strength.

Since Uzumaki's are related to Senju's and the Senju inherited the Sage's Life / Body force, which was obviously great, it was very suitable for Nagato to wield it.

I think Madara intentionally chose Nagato to give his Rinnegan to.

Rikudo Sage
07-26-2012, 12:26 PM
Funny thing is, we weren't counting other people's votes.
And nobody can say he's right, I mean, we still don't know the truth, so it doesn't make sense to say that you were right. Maybe your theory was most likely to happen, but Kishi can decide to not follow that logic.
Except that in debate, votes from the listeners are important. To make it clear, I didnt say I was right. I was just on defense because you've challenged mine. You attacked me first and I am on defense. However, few agreed with me and we're not arguing, we're discussing.

I think the reason that Madara and Tobi needed Senju DNA in order to obtain the Rinnegan was that you would need the body / life force in order to use it, since it's the most powerful Dojutsu ever. A normal body, with no great body force wouldn't be able to wield such power because it could probably eat up his Chakra.

The reason that Nagato was able to use the Rinnegan was that he was an Uzumaki, you see, you don't need Uchiha and Senju DNA for it, you just need good body strength.

Since Uzumaki's are related to Senju's and the Senju inherited the Sage's Life / Body force, which was obviously great, it was very suitable for Nagato to wield it.

I think Madara intentionally chose Nagato to give his Rinnegan to
Nagato wields Rinnegan because it was simply transplanted to him and He did not awakened it by himself. Any doujutsu can be wield by anyone as long as its transplanted to them. Look at Ao, Kakashi and Danzo. There is no such requirement for transplanting an END PRODUCT to anyone, pre-requisites and requirements will come into play for DEVELOPING or EVOLVING it. In Madara's case he needed Hashirama DNA to unlock Rinnegan, the end product and then He gave it to Nagato.

You are suggesting that certain DNA is not required to unlock Rinnegan, yet you are talking about life force in which the Senju and Uzumaki inherited from the Rikudo. You failed to realize that you are already talking about GENETICS and DNA. :cool:

SilentBlade
07-26-2012, 12:37 PM
Except that in debate, votes from the listeners are important. To make it clear, I didnt say I was right. I was just on defense because you've challenged mine. You attacked me first and I am on defense. However, few agreed with me and we're not arguing, we're discussing.


Nagato wields Rinnegan because it was simply transplanted to him and He did not awakened it by himself. Any doujutsu can be wield by anyone as long as its transplanted to them. Look at Ao, Kakashi and Danzo. There is no such requirement for transplanting an END PRODUCT to anyone, pre-requisites and requirements will come into play for DEVELOPING or EVOLVING it. In Madara's case he needed Hashirama DNA to unlock Rinnegan, the end product and then He gave it to Nagato.

You are suggesting that certain DNA is not required to unlock Rinnegan, yet you are talking about life force in which the Senju and Uzumaki inherited from the Rikudo. You failed to realize that you are already talking about GENETICS and DNA. :cool:

At what point was it transplanted to him? It simply says that Tobi had given it to him, but it never said how. Personally I don't see it being "Transplanted" in terms of medical. The fact is probably that circumstances had to be created in order to awaken the Rinnegan. By giving it to Nagato, those circumstances were probably created by Tobi through a highly developed Genjutsu.

Kyūbi no Yōko
07-26-2012, 12:47 PM
Except that in debate, votes from the listeners are important. To make it clear, I didnt say I was right. I was just on defense because you've challenged mine. You attacked me first and I am on defense. However, few agreed with me and we're not arguing, we're discussing.


Nagato wields Rinnegan because it was simply transplanted to him and He did not awakened it by himself. Any doujutsu can be wield by anyone as long as its transplanted to them. Look at Ao, Kakashi and Danzo. There is no such requirement for transplanting an END PRODUCT to anyone, pre-requisites and requirements will come into play for DEVELOPING or EVOLVING it. In Madara's case he needed Hashirama DNA to unlock Rinnegan, the end product and then He gave it to Nagato.

You are suggesting that certain DNA is not required to unlock Rinnegan, yet you are talking about life force in which the Senju and Uzumaki inherited from the Rikudo. You failed to realize that you are already talking about GENETICS and DNA. :cool:

Even if the Dojutsu is transplanted, you still need something to wield it and as we clearly see with Kakashi, a transplanted Dojutsu is even harder for someone who didn't have it naturally, but had it transplanted.

I am saying that the certain DNA helps wielding it, but it's still not IMPOSSIBLE to wield it with the certain DNA (which is Senju/Uzumaki).
It's just a boost to have it more natural.

I clearly stated that the certain DNA is not needed to unlock the Rinnegan, it just helps in wielding it and having it come more naturally, but again, that's my assumption and I'm backing it up with some facts.

Rikudo Sage
07-27-2012, 06:35 AM
At what point was it transplanted to him? It simply says that Tobi had given it to him, but it never said how. Personally I don't see it being "Transplanted" in terms of medical. The fact is probably that circumstances had to be created in order to awaken the Rinnegan. By giving it to Nagato, those circumstances were probably created by Tobi through a highly developed Genjutsu.
Nagato's eye never turned off. It was still active even when He died. Isn't this enough to say that Nagato's Rinnegan is transplanted? Byakugan and Sharringan cannot be turned off when transplanted so Rinnegan should be no different.

Even if the Dojutsu is transplanted, you still need something to wield it and as we clearly see with Kakashi, a transplanted Dojutsu is even harder for someone who didn't have it naturally, but had it transplanted.

I am saying that the certain DNA helps wielding it, but it's still not IMPOSSIBLE to wield it with the certain DNA (which is Senju/Uzumaki).
It's just a boost to have it more natural.
Yes,. youre right! The orignal DNA would greatly increased any doujutsu's functionality. Kakashi would not be suffering from quick chakra drain had he belong to the Uchiha clan but this doesnt mean that other bloodline is not fit to be the recipient of doujutsu. Any bloodline can wield a transplanted doujutsu though they may suffer from quick chakra drain. This has been proven long time ago.

I clearly stated that the certain DNA is not needed to unlock the Rinnegan, it just helps in wielding it and having it come more naturally, but again, that's my assumption and I'm backing it up with some facts.
No, Hashirama DNA is required to unlock Rinnegan. The fact that Madara fought Hashirama is a clear evidence that Hashirama's DNA is required to unlock Rinnegan. So this assumption is not actually supported by facts unless you show me anything that proves that any DNA aside from Hashirama can unlock Rinnegan.

Kyūbi no Yōko
07-27-2012, 07:55 AM
Does your rule (Senju DNA required to unlock Rinnegan) for unlocking the Rinnegan (via evolution) or transplanting?

The only thing I back it up is that you need more life force to wield it otherwise the Rinnegan would completely drain your Chakra and kill you very fast, unlike the Sharingan that takes more time.

So, Nagato was able to wield Rinnegan easily and control it easily because of Uzumaki DNA, which is related to Senju and clearly stated that they have a great life force.

Madara couldn't endure its power only by Uchiha DNA so he got some Senju DNA for the objective of wielding it.

What I am saying is :

You don't NEED Senju/Uzumaki DNA to unlock it, you need it so you can use it, so you can use it naturally and extensively, not keeping it hidden and such.

SilentBlade
07-27-2012, 08:07 AM
Does your rule (Senju DNA required to unlock Rinnegan) for unlocking the Rinnegan (via evolution) or transplanting?

The only thing I back it up is that you need more life force to wield it otherwise the Rinnegan would completely drain your Chakra and kill you very fast, unlike the Sharingan that takes more time.

So, Nagato was able to wield Rinnegan easily and control it easily because of Uzumaki DNA, which is related to Senju and clearly stated that they have a great life force.

Madara couldn't endure its power only by Uchiha DNA so he got some Senju DNA for the objective of wielding it.

What I am saying is :

You don't NEED Senju/Uzumaki DNA to unlock it, you need it so you can use it, so you can use it naturally and extensively, not keeping it hidden and such.

I agree with Kyubi on this one. You never actually see the SoSP with out it active, and I think the fact that it is active all the time can be indicative of the individual using it actually being naturally born with its ability.

Like he said, if he wasn't a natural user, it would burn through his chakra like crazy because in a state of constant activation it would be constantly being used! Thus one could argue that its natural state would be to always be active, and the user would simply be the one with the amount of Chakra to keep it that way.

Think about it this way, if the Rinnegan is the ultimate ocular dojutsu, it uses the most chakra and is probably similar to chakra usage as the SoSP's ninja tools (would use so much chakra it would kill a normal person). That said, anything that belonged to the sage that was made to use his type and amount of chakra including his Rinnegan could arguably be the same. One could state that the sharingan and Byakugan were developed by those who simply did not have enough chakra to activate the Rinnegan, and because of that when they did finally activate the dormant dojutsu in their genetics, it turned to be what we see.

Mangetsu Hozuki
07-27-2012, 08:13 AM
The Sharingan was never an evolution in the first place, much less to the Rinnegan or the Byakugan. EMS does not evolve into the Rinnegan. It's a completely different Doujutsu earned when combining Uchiha and Senju DNA (Madara got it when he got Hashirama's face on his arm)

Thank you for saying this, as it spared me having to say it myself. This also explains how Tobi could have "given the Rinnengan to Nagato." He didn't give him the eye itself, but Uchiha DNA - allowing Nagato (an Uzumaki) to awaken the Rinnengan.
(Also, by this theory, Naruto can awaken his own Rinnengan by integrating Uchiha DNA into his own.)

SilentBlade
07-27-2012, 08:18 AM
Thank you for saying this, as it spared me having to say it myself. This also explains how Tobi could have "given the Rinnengan to Nagato." He didn't give him the eye itself, but Uchiha DNA - allowing Nagato (an Uzumaki) to awaken the Rinnengan.
(Also, by this theory, Naruto can awaken his own Rinnengan by integrating Uchiha DNA into his own.)

The only question here is where the Uzumaki sit in terms of their relationship to both the Senju and Uchiha. The problem I run into during these discussions are that everyone believe the Senju and Uzumaki are more or less interchangeable n terms of how they relate to the the Uchiha and even the SoSP himself.

The reason I raise this issue is that their chakra is different! we know that because the Jinchuriki has always been an Uzumaki because of their special chakra, which would have to be different from the Senju. We also know that the Uchiha have the power to control the tailed beast with their special abilities. Finally, at the point the village is formed, Hashirama and the Uchiha probably still don't 100% trust each other, so one could argue that the Uzumaki were chosen because they were related approximately the same distance in terms of family ties, to both..Meaning they were the same distance in relation to the Uchiha as they were to the Senju! which would also give them the proper "massive life force" and "ability to suppress the Kyuub"

Just some thoughts!

Rikudo Sage
07-27-2012, 09:06 AM
Does your rule (Senju DNA required to unlock Rinnegan) for unlocking the Rinnegan (via evolution) or transplanting?
My assumption is.. You need to merge the two DNA into one.. Senju and Uchiha before the Rinnegan can be unlock. However, only Uchiha's have the ability to do that because they inherited the Rikudo's eye. Naruto can wield Rinnegan but that doesnt mean he can unlock it had Uchiha DNA transplanted to him.! This is very simple explanation to avoid confusion..

The only thing I back it up is that you need more life force to wield it otherwise the Rinnegan would completely drain your Chakra and kill you very fast, unlike the Sharingan that takes more time.

So, Nagato was able to wield Rinnegan easily and control it easily because of Uzumaki DNA, which is related to Senju and clearly stated that they have a great life force.
Again... I agree with you that Uzumaki's great life force helped Nagato to wield Rinnegan properly.

Madara couldn't endure its power only by Uchiha DNA so he got some Senju DNA for the objective of wielding it.
Nope, Madara needed Hashirama DNA to UNLOCK/MUTATE his EMS from Rinnegan not only to WIELD.

What I am saying is :

You don't NEED Senju/Uzumaki DNA to unlock it, you need it so you can use it, so you can use it naturally and extensively, not keeping it hidden and such.
However, this is the part that you are not getting and this is the main disconnect between are points.

Unlocking and Using have different meanings.. Shall I differentiate it? Madara UNLOCKED the Rinnegan from EMS.. Nagato USED it which is already UNLOCKED by Madara.

But then gain you're saying that the Senju DNA is not required to unlock it. Which is wrong because Madara fought Hashirama to harvest his DNA.

I agree with Kyubi on this one. You never actually see the SoSP with out it active, and I think the fact that it is active all the time can be indicative of the individual using it actually being naturally born with its ability.

Like he said, if he wasn't a natural user, it would burn through his chakra like crazy because in a state of constant activation it would be constantly being used! Thus one could argue that its natural state would be to always be active, and the user would simply be the one with the amount of Chakra to keep it that way.

Think about it this way, if the Rinnegan is the ultimate ocular dojutsu, it uses the most chakra and is probably similar to chakra usage as the SoSP's ninja tools (would use so much chakra it would kill a normal person). That said, anything that belonged to the sage that was made to use his type and amount of chakra including his Rinnegan could arguably be the same. One could state that the sharingan and Byakugan were developed by those who simply did not have enough chakra to activate the Rinnegan, and because of that when they did finally activate the dormant dojutsu in their genetics, it turned to be what we see.
Indeed! Natural user has advantage over Non-natural user however, its hard to say that Rikudo's Rinnegan cannot be turned off.

Thank you for saying this, as it spared me having to say it myself. This also explains how Tobi could have "given the Rinnengan to Nagato." He didn't give him the eye itself, but Uchiha DNA - allowing Nagato (an Uzumaki) to awaken the Rinnengan.
(Also, by this theory, Naruto can awaken his own Rinnengan by integrating Uchiha DNA into his own.)
Nagato awakened Rinnegan by himself!? The fact that his Rinnegan cannot be turned off is a valid proof that he's Rinnegan were not evolved naturally. Again, Nagato's is just a transplanted eye.

Maruko
07-27-2012, 09:21 AM
Senju DNA this, Senju DNA that!
Madara probably awakened it with his own skill, just like Kakashi awakened his MS and Kamui.

SilentBlade
07-27-2012, 10:02 AM
Senju DNA this, Senju DNA that!
Madara probably awakened it with his own skill, just like Kakashi awakened his MS and Kamui.

Its not so much awakened, as it is the ability to use it to its full potential. If you think about it, Kakashi is always dazed right after he uses it, and if he uses it a lot he can barely move..That said use of Kamui is hard for him and he can only use it on smaller things due to the amount of chakra it takes...I would argue that the same applies to Saskue, but in a larger quantity of Chakra..Then of course there is a Senju or Uzumaki who has so much chakra, that the ability to use fully assault the village with 6 completely separate bodies using the powers of the Rinnegan simultaneously exists!

Just my take on it.

Rikudo Sage
07-27-2012, 10:38 AM
Its not so much awakened, as it is the ability to use it to its full potential. If you think about it, Kakashi is always dazed right after he uses it, and if he uses it a lot he can barely move..That said use of Kamui is hard for him and he can only use it on smaller things due to the amount of chakra it takes...I would argue that the same applies to Saskue, but in a larger quantity of Chakra..Then of course there is a Senju or Uzumaki who has so much chakra, that the ability to use fully assault the village with 6 completely separate bodies using the powers of the Rinnegan simultaneously exists!

Just my take on it.

This is true, Sharringans were orignated from Uchiha's and Kakashi is not Uchiha. Therefore, we can say that Kakashi is non-natural user because He is not Uchiha and Uchiha's are the natural user hence, they (Uchiha's) don't suffer from quick chakra drain and they can also deactivate their eyes at will unlike any non-natural users.

Kyūbi no Yōko
07-27-2012, 11:45 AM
My assumption is.. You need to merge the two DNA into one.. Senju and Uchiha before the Rinnegan can be unlock. However, only Uchiha's have the ability to do that because they inherited the Rikudo's eye. Naruto can wield Rinnegan but that doesnt mean he can unlock it had Uchiha DNA transplanted to him.! This is very simple explanation to avoid confusion..


Again... I agree with you that Uzumaki's great life force helped Nagato to wield Rinnegan properly.

I'm glad.

Nope, Madara needed Hashirama DNA to UNLOCK/MUTATE his EMS from Rinnegan not only to WIELD.

Prove it.


However, this is the part that you are not getting and this is the main disconnect between are points.

Unlocking and Using have different meanings.. Shall I differentiate it? Madara UNLOCKED the Rinnegan from EMS.. Nagato USED it which is already UNLOCKED by Madara.

So that means that EMS evolutes to Rinnegan.

But then gain you're saying that the Senju DNA is not required to unlock it. Which is wrong because Madara fought Hashirama to harvest his DNA.

Maybe he needed the other DNA for other purposes, not just for helping wield the Rinnegan.

Indeed! Natural user has advantage over Non-natural user however, its hard to say that Rikudo's Rinnegan cannot be turned off.

I think Rikudo's Rinnegan came from the Juubi, since the Juubi is the progenitor of this world and also has the ultimate Dojutsu, the Sharrinegan.

Nagato awakened Rinnegan by himself!? The fact that his Rinnegan cannot be turned off is a valid proof that he's Rinnegan were not evolved naturally. Again, Nagato's is just a transplanted eye.

True, as also stated by Madara, Nagato's Rinnegan was transplanted.

In White.

--

@SilentBlade ; thank you for giving further explanation and taking a very good example, the SO6P Tools that were devastating chakra 'eaters'.

Rikudo Sage
07-27-2012, 12:42 PM
Prove it.
Why Madara fought Hashirama?
So that means that EMS evolutes to Rinnegan.
Inappropriate response.. Maybe he needed the other DNA for other purposes, not just for helping wield the Rinnegan.
For what purpose aside from Rinnegan? Madara needs Rinnegan to control Gedo Mazou and to attain his goal the Infinite Tsukuyomi..
I think Rikudo's Rinnegan came from the Juubi, since the Juubi is the progenitor of this world and also has the ultimate Dojutsu, the Sharrinegan.
Nope, Rikudo already had Rinnegan before He seal the Juubi inside him..

slyfoxx
07-27-2012, 12:52 PM
wow u guys debated that for over a week. And after reading all of it i came to the conclusion that its evolution( not to disagree with anyone). That was an awesome debate with minimal info.
MY THOUGHTS.
I think the rinnegan was de-evoled into the sharingan(the byukagan has nomore part to play kishi wrote that ten years ago try no to use to much info from part 1 lets just say the story took a different turn). I use de-evoled because i think ist because the blood became tainted with other weaker bloodlines not able to handle the right capacity for the rinnegan(It is said that even among the uchihas that maddy had a unblievable amount of chakra.)
It is also said that every uchiha dont awaken the sharingan. The ms is even rarer(needless to say the ems also).
I believe the tablet is a way to re-evole to the rinnegan because i believe the sage was born with the sharigan and evoled it in life experiences to the rinnegan and left his life story on the tablet which uchihas try to copy to gain thier own power.
I also believe when we saw the juubi it was under controll of the sage like when tobi was incontroll of the fox and the fox had the sharingan.
Now what u guys are forgetting is that kishi has called each bloodling a path. Mayby there are differt path to Supersagedom and that the uchihas was on the tablet an how-to gain power booklet.
But all this is very inconclusive because of limited info.
What we do know is maddy got the rinny but wat woulda happen if kabs didnt include the first dna, could he have use the rinny?

Kyūbi no Yōko
07-27-2012, 01:52 PM
Why Madara fought Hashirama?
`That Madara fought Hashirama for the sole purpose of obtaining Senju DNA only to obtain the Rinnegan and nothing more.

Inappropriate response..
`You didn't mention mutation, you said unlocking it from EMS, which literally means Rinnegan is the last stage of the Sharingan.

For what purpose aside from Rinnegan? Madara needs Rinnegan to control Gedo Mazou and to attain his goal the Infinite Tsukuyomi..
`Mokuton and there are no information if Madara was the one that planned Tsuki no Me.

Nope, Rikudo already had Rinnegan before He seal the Juubi inside him..
`Not proven.

In White.

Rikudo Sage
07-27-2012, 02:12 PM
That Madara fought Hashirama for the sole purpose of obtaining Senju DNA only to obtain the Rinnegan and nothing more.
See! You finaly got it! Hashirama DNA is required to unlock Rinnegan!
You didn't mention mutation, you said unlocking it from EMS, which literally means Rinnegan is the last stage of the Sharingan.
I didnt use the mutation term because I want you to understand that Unlocking and USING doesnt share the same meaning so review that post again. If Madara unlocked the Rinnegan by altering his DNA with Hashirama DNA. That is MUTATION.
Mokuton and there are no information if Madara was the one that planned Tsuki no Me.
Mokuton? for what reason? He can control tailed beast with his Sharringan alone. Madara planned it and Tobi was his accomplice.
`Not proven.
I already posted this on page 2 of this thread but I'll post it again anyway and they agreed with it.

Re-read chap 467 starting from pg 12. When Tobi narrating the story to the 5 Kages of how the Rikudo became the 1st Jinchuriki.. It was sequential and in chronological order.. The very 1st page that the Rikudo was shown before fighting the Juubi.. He had Rinnegan without chakra shroud and no Magatama necklace and then after he defeated the Juubi and became its host.. The Rikudo gained chakra shroud and 6 Magatama necklace indicating that he already sealed the Juubi inside him at that point the Rikudo still had Rinnegan not Shar-Rinnegan.

When the page of the Rikudo fighting Juubi was shown.. The Juubi had Shar-Rinnegan..

The Rikudo had already the Rinnegan even before he sealed the Juubi inside him and became its host.

Kyūbi no Yōko
07-27-2012, 02:30 PM
See! You finaly got it! Hashirama DNA is required to unlock Rinnegan!
No, I asked you to explain that.

I didnt use the mutation term because I want you to understand that Unlocking and USING doesnt share the same meaning so review that post again. If Madara unlocked the Rinnegan by altering his DNA with Hashirama DNA. That is MUTATION.
I know what unlocking and using means, my assumption was already posted above, if I have any new ideas I'll be sure to keep you posted.

Mokuton? for what reason? He can control tailed beast with his Sharringan alone. Madara planned it and Tobi was his accomplice.
Actually, we can obviously see Madara needing Mokuton in order to battle. After seeing its power, Madara was amazed and had Orochimaru do some crazy experiments in order for him to obtain Mokuton.

I already posted this on page 2 of this thread but I'll post it again anyway and they agreed with it.

Re-read chap 467 starting from pg 12. When Tobi narrating the story to the 5 Kages of how the Rikudo became the 1st Jinchuriki.. It was sequential and in chronological order.. The very 1st page that the Rikudo was shown before fighting the Juubi.. He had Rinnegan without chakra shroud and no Magatama necklace and then after he defeated the Juubi and became its host.. The Rikudo gained chakra shroud and 6 Magatama necklace indicating that he already sealed the Juubi inside him at that point the Rikudo still had Rinnegan not Shar-Rinnegan.

When the page of the Rikudo fighting Juubi was shown.. The Juubi had Shar-Rinnegan..
The Rikudo had already the Rinnegan even before he sealed the Juubi inside him and became its host.That's not neccessarily true, the timeline is most likely wrong. Tobi clearly states that he was known and recognized and respected because of the Juubi, meaning he gained immense power just because of the Juubi. You can see the necklace (probably with the shapes of magatma) on the same panel. Not good enough to convince me.

White.

Rikudo Sage
07-27-2012, 02:52 PM
No, I asked you to explain that.
What!? Trollface.. Look at your sentence construction.. I asked you why did Madara fought Hashirama? and you replied "That Madara fought Hashirama for the sole purpose of obtaining Senju DNA only to obtain the Rinnegan and nothing more."

are you really asking for an explanation!?? based on this sentence construction you're giving an opinion... trollface.. :lol:
I know what unlocking and using means, my assumption was already posted above, if I have any new ideas I'll be sure to keep you posted.
Thats great! I had enough anyway..
Actually, we can obviously see Madara needing Mokuton in order to battle. After seeing its power, Madara was amazed and had Orochimaru do some crazy experiments in order for him to obtain Mokuton.
Mokuton is just a bonus but the main reason why Madara fought him is because of the Rinnegan. You already said it yourself.. "That Madara fought Hashirama for the sole purpose of obtaining Senju DNA only to obtain the Rinnegan and nothing more."
That's not neccessarily true, the timeline is most likely wrong. Tobi clearly states that he was known and recognized and respected because of the Juubi, meaning he gained immense power just because of the Juubi. You can see the necklace (probably with the shapes of magatma) on the same panel. Not good enough to convince me.
Hmmm.. when you're telling someone a story it has to be sequential. Tobi was narrating a story.. So how can you say that it was'nt..
Care to dig a chapter regarding that it wasnt sequential? Prove it.

Kyūbi no Yōko
07-27-2012, 03:24 PM
What!? Trollface.. Look at your sentence construction.. I asked you why did Madara fought Hashirama? and you replied "That Madara fought Hashirama for the sole purpose of obtaining Senju DNA only to obtain the Rinnegan and nothing more."

are you really asking for an explanation!?? based on this sentence construction you're giving an opinion... trollface.. :lol:
I said 'prove it' and you said : 'What, that Madara needed the Senju DNA to unlock Rinnegan' and I said : 'That Madara fought for Hashirama ....'.

Thats great! I had enough anyway..
That's just wrong. You can't judge someone and say he's wrong when you aren't right either just because you don't like his way of thinking. That's really ignorant.

Mokuton is just a bonus but the main reason why Madara fought him is because of the Rinnegan. You already said it yourself.. "That Madara fought Hashirama for the sole purpose of obtaining Senju DNA only to obtain the Rinnegan and nothing more."
Explained above.

Hmmm.. when you're telling someone a story it has to be sequential. Tobi was narrating a story.. So how can you say that it was'nt..
Care to dig a chapter regarding that it wasnt sequential? Prove it.
How can you say that it was sequential? I can't find a chapter about it, but I'll look it up in the anime (where Tobi talks with Naruto, Kakashi and Yamato about Rikudo Sennin) since its more detailed there.

Learn how to behave properly and that signature of you doesn't fit you at all, because you're just trying to 'exchange' ignorance with me because you're argumenting, not discussing, but no, I will not fall to that level.

You see, I could simply just say your theory/assumption is bad and I had enough of it because it's full of bad stuff (even though I don't think so), but I'm not that kind of person. Seriously, I'll never discuss with you if you keep being so ignorant and not returning the kindness I give.

Rikudo Sage
07-27-2012, 03:40 PM
Oh my.... Tsk.. tsk.. :D

Don't get me wrong dude.. Sorry if you were offended but I was just telling the truth..

paradigm1977
07-27-2012, 04:40 PM
Well this goes back to trusting Tobi's flashback and the order of events. It's looks like the Sharinnegan and rinnegan of the So6P were seperate.

I didn't believe it was definite that the eyes came from the juubi, but presented it for arguments sake so we could discuss the possibility.

Points I disagree:

Madara did not fight necessarily fight Hashirama for the rinnegan. Since Madara didn't unlock rinnegan for at least another 30 years, you could easily argue it was for izanagi. But honestly, either case is based on drama, rather than logic. Hashi wasn't the only Senju, so why fight the toughest one for his senju DNA? There was something else about him.


You need senju or Uzumaki DNA to both unlock it, or be a user without drain.
We don't see the sage enough to argue if he can turn his rinnes off. And stories of him would always revert to him in bad@ss mode. Nagato and Tobi have not turned theirs off. Madara has. So it seems to me that only if your bloodline is natural for the dojutsu, can you bypass drain. Kakashi and Ao get drained. Madara and Sasuke have on/off ability so I they are the right bloodline for sharingan. Nagato doesn't get drain, but doesn't seem to be able to turn off the rinne's. same with Tobi. This means there is enough of a match that there is no drain/rejection between eye and body. Madara and Tobi seem to have senju DNA, and Nagato is a relative of at least the senju. Perhaps if the rinne's are not yours but a relatives, like with EMS, there is a close enough genetic match, on top of bloodline to have full control of the eye. So the order is 1.your own/relative, 2. bloodline/DNA match 3. no match (drain)

So in relation rinnegan doesn't drain more than sharingan, we haven't even seen it drain. It's the jutsu's that it can perform.

to get rinnegan you must recombine, naturally, or scientifically, separate bloodlines to get back to the rinnegan dojutsu.

Nagato can use the rinnegan not because he can handle the drain every waking hour without turning it off, it's because he is a bloodline match. And he has enough chakra to survive major rinnegan jutsus. So I am saying that Rinnegan is natural to Uzumaki, because Uzumaki combines Senju and Uchiha. No proof of Uchiha, but Tobi and Madara both have Senju+Uchiha.

Super chakra level, and restorative power, are present in senju and uzumaki, and Hashi's amount of it could be what Madara needed a taste of, to be able to use infinite Tsukoyomi.

I am right, because I have built the highest wall of text:D

kalmeast
07-29-2012, 06:24 PM
This may be an odd question to ask, considering what we saw with Madara, but potentially speaking, might the Sharingan be the result of the Rinnegan being sealed with something similar to the cursed seal of heaven?

Third part of the though process:
We know that the Uchiha have been referred to as the "cursed clan" and more than likely for a reason other than the processes of attaining power (we know that all high powered jutsu come at a high cost, the the MS/EMS should be no different), one could argue that it is a result of that first battle between the elder and younger sons of Rikudo Sennin. This may be an assumption on my part, but during their initial battle, I would state that the younger son won (if the elder son won, he'd have likely killed off the younger). With that stated, I would then go so far as to state that the younger son could not bring himself to kill his older brother, so instead he sealed off most of the power of the Rinnegan with that mark, still leaving him with substantial power, but nothing as powerful as it once was. If you observe the Tomoe of the Sharingan vs. the Cursed seal of heave, they are opposites, the cursed seal of heaven infuses power, where one could argue the sharingan limits power. Thats not to say it wouldn't be substantial, but by comparison it probably is much less substantial.




This here could have been your entire theory... More focused and effective...
btw...this is one of the best i've read... beautiful...i luv it.

Rikudo Sage
07-30-2012, 06:46 AM
Well this goes back to trusting Tobi's flashback and the order of events. It's looks like the Sharinnegan and rinnegan of the So6P were seperate.

I didn't believe it was definite that the eyes came from the juubi, but presented it for arguments sake so we could discuss the possibility.

Points I disagree:

Madara did not fight necessarily fight Hashirama for the rinnegan. Since Madara didn't unlock rinnegan for at least another 30 years, you could easily argue it was for izanagi. But honestly, either case is based on drama, rather than logic. Hashi wasn't the only Senju, so why fight the toughest one for his senju DNA? There was something else about him.


You need senju or Uzumaki DNA to both unlock it, or be a user without drain.
We don't see the sage enough to argue if he can turn his rinnes off. And stories of him would always revert to him in bad@ss mode. Nagato and Tobi have not turned theirs off. Madara has. So it seems to me that only if your bloodline is natural for the dojutsu, can you bypass drain. Kakashi and Ao get drained. Madara and Sasuke have on/off ability so I they are the right bloodline for sharingan. Nagato doesn't get drain, but doesn't seem to be able to turn off the rinne's. same with Tobi. This means there is enough of a match that there is no drain/rejection between eye and body. Madara and Tobi seem to have senju DNA, and Nagato is a relative of at least the senju. Perhaps if the rinne's are not yours but a relatives, like with EMS, there is a close enough genetic match, on top of bloodline to have full control of the eye. So the order is 1.your own/relative, 2. bloodline/DNA match 3. no match (drain)

So in relation rinnegan doesn't drain more than sharingan, we haven't even seen it drain. It's the jutsu's that it can perform.

to get rinnegan you must recombine, naturally, or scientifically, separate bloodlines to get back to the rinnegan dojutsu.

Nagato can use the rinnegan not because he can handle the drain every waking hour without turning it off, it's because he is a bloodline match. And he has enough chakra to survive major rinnegan jutsus. So I am saying that Rinnegan is natural to Uzumaki, because Uzumaki combines Senju and Uchiha. No proof of Uchiha, but Tobi and Madara both have Senju+Uchiha.

Super chakra level, and restorative power, are present in senju and uzumaki, and Hashi's amount of it could be what Madara needed a taste of, to be able to use infinite Tsukoyomi.

I am right, because I have built the highest wall of text:D
Great read! Pretty much you nailed the part about Natural users and Non-Natural users. To put it simple. Natural users have on/off ability and doesn't get drained while Non-Natural users are opposites.

We also both agree that Shar-Rinnegan and Rinnegan are not the same. These are different doujutsu and Rikudo's Rinnegan didn't come from the Juubi. Tobi's Narrating the story to the 5 Kage's was in the exact order. There's no need for him to mess with the timeline because when you are narrating a story IT HAS TO BE SEQUENTIAL.

Madara did not fight necessarily fight Hashirama for the rinnegan. Since Madara didn't unlock rinnegan for at least another 30 years, you could easily argue it was for izanagi. But honestly, either case is based on drama, rather than logic. Hashi wasn't the only Senju, so why fight the toughest one for his senju DNA? There was something else about him.
My assumption.. Hashirama is the strongest that's why He is the best choice. Orochimaru was never interested with other Senju DNA except Hashirama's DNA.
You need senju or Uzumaki DNA to both unlock it, or be a user without drain.
I still believe that Hashirama DNA + Uchiha DNA is the key to unlock Rinnegan. We know that Uzumaki's can use it without being drained but that doesnt mean they can unlock Rinnegan from EMS but it can case you and the other guys are right. I owe you guyz a rep. :D

SilentBlade
07-30-2012, 07:50 AM
@Kalmeast, Thank you very much!! that's quite a complement from an individual as good at theory as you are!

@Rikudo

The biggest reason Hashirama was chosen for DNA was because he could USE the KG wood style. Not everyone in the bloodline had the wood style KG, which made Hashirama a unique Senju. I make that statement because you don't hear of anyone looking to get Tobirama's DNA, and we know he was strong! he just couldn't use the wood style which I believe made it less attractive.

As for the DNA arguments, I don't think it is quite that simple, the Senju and Uchiha DNA to create a Rinnegan or awaken it. If you think about the history we are told about the Uchiha and Senju, getting Senju DNA wouldn't have been that hard back when they were fighting. With that thought process one could argue that there would have or should have been many many more Rinnegans out there, and that Madara and Izuna should have been able to awaken that power way back when!

Now to take this thought processes a step further..Lets make the argument that you have the 3 clans that are related to the Sons of SoSP. Then lets make another statement, lets make the statement that the Uzumaki clan was actually considered the heirs of the SoSP, and the Senju and Uchiha were not. Regardless of their relationship to the elder and younger sons, I'd say that neither were the heirs, they simply had the bodily power or the ocular power of the elder and younger son.

Why does that make sense? well you have to question what it meant to be an heir and why it was such a big deal. Remember the Elder son wanted to kill the younger son for SOMETHING. while title would have been important, something more tangible would have warranted that fight, so I would say it would have been particular jutsu's that were passed down (i.e the special sealing jutsu's that the Uzumaki were known for). By that logic, the Uzumaki had direct techniques from the SoSP, they had the bodily power of SoSP and potentially the Rinnegan of SoSP. Thus, them being the heirs of SoSP makes a bit more sense. Also! like SoSP would have wanted, they were not involved in the conflicts or battles you heard about, and lived more of a peaceful life. One could argue that perhaps it was their influence that ended the fighting between the Senju and Uchiha. That stated may make it irrelevant to being related to either to awaken the Rinnegan, and perhaps the only important relationship was with the Uzumaki.

Rikudo Sage
07-30-2012, 08:59 AM
@Silent ; You could be on somethin' adding Uzumaki in the mix. I would'nt be surprise if this would materialize.

BTW..

It looks like you are also against with my hypothesis that Hashirama DNA + Uchiha DNA = Rinegan.. Okay, If Hashirama was chosen by Madara because of his wood style, Why that kind of KG is so important to Madara? We know that Madara's goal is Mugen Tsukuyomi and to accomplish that He needs the power of Juubi but to revive Juubi, He needs Gedo Mazou and to control Gedo Mazou He needs Rinnegan.

So what would be the impact if Madara never had achieved Mokuton? Tobi can capture all the beasts without even using a piece of wood.

SilentBlade
07-30-2012, 09:46 AM
@Silent ; You could be on somethin' adding Uzumaki in the mix. I would'nt be surprise if this would materialize.

BTW..

It looks like you are also against with my hypothesis that Hashirama DNA + Uchiha DNA = Rinegan.. Okay, If Hashirama was chosen by Madara because of his wood style, Why that kind of KG is so important to Madara? We know that Madara's goal is Mugen Tsukuyomi and to accomplish that He needs the power of Juubi but to revive Juubi, He needs Gedo Mazou and to control Gedo Mazou He needs Rinnegan.

So what would be the impact if Madara never had achieved Mokuton? Tobi can capture all the beasts without even using a piece of wood.

Remember, Madara had such an amount of respect for Hashirama, he saw Hashirama as superior to all other Senju. The wood style would be effective at combat, and also Madara knew that it was the ONLY thing that could beat him. By having the wood style he would be able to guarantee that no one could oppose him in battle at all. It's not so much that he needed it for the Rinnegan sake, because he already knew that a Senju descendant could potentially beat him if they had the abilities. Also! don't forget his ability to heal himself (though not that important as a zombie, but still).

While potentially I still like the idea of how the cursed clan came to be, I think it would be interesting if the true heir's were the Uzumaki. Like I said, they are the only ones who actually "got something" directly from the sage that you wouldn't get by being related to him in some sort of way.

Kyūbi no Yōko
07-30-2012, 10:03 AM
the genius kalmeast has a good thought about this :D

kal : 'there is an unknown variable which precedes your premise and every fact we know at the moment. That variable proves both theories...
That variable is this: Did the Elder son, of the rikoudo inherit the full rinnegan or did he inherit a mutated version? That's the fact we need to know..
If a full rinnegan, that'd mean, you don't need a senju (specifically hashirama's) dna to awaken the full rinnegan, but
If the elder son inherited a mutated version of the rinnegan, then it'd mean , you need a senju dna to awaken the full thing.'

SilentBlade
08-01-2012, 06:50 AM
the genius kalmeast has a good thought about this :D

kal : 'there is an unknown variable which precedes your premise and every fact we know at the moment. That variable proves both theories...
That variable is this: Did the Elder son, of the rikoudo inherit the full rinnegan or did he inherit a mutated version? That's the fact we need to know..
If a full rinnegan, that'd mean, you don't need a senju (specifically hashirama's) dna to awaken the full rinnegan, but
If the elder son inherited a mutated version of the rinnegan, then it'd mean , you need a senju dna to awaken the full thing.'

Here is a question to answer your question though. Are all Rinnegan the same? remember we are talking genetics here and every individual has a completely unique set of genetics, meaning that its not a question of part or whole but simply unique!

Remember, even with the MS, every user of the MS has a different MS with a unique design to that individual which apparently also has a very specific ability that is able to be used. With that logic implied in basic genetic understanding, one can argue that the Rinnegan isn't a mutation of the original (from person to person) but more so that unique individuals rinnegan, which will possess some similar power mixed with some unique powers to that particular user.

paradigm1977
08-01-2012, 07:33 AM
There may be a tie in to wood release and keeping all the tailed beasts under control.

Yamato's is a watered down version of Hashi's, yet he could supress the kyuubi chakra when Naruto lost control.

Madara might have needed Hashi's DNA as the first step toward obtaining all the tailed beasts and handling them as jinchuriki.

I haven't gone back to the manga, this is my memory of those wood pillars coming up around Yamato.

So the theory is that Madara wouldn't even need the pillars.

Rikudo Sage
04-08-2014, 10:51 PM
Phew! Its been a long time.. The chap 671 confirmed Hashirama + Madara = Rinnegan. My hypothesis 2 years ago is almost perfect and accurate. Lol. Silent you owe me some rep dude! You were wrong! Lol.