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FateBringsUsTogether
04-17-2012, 03:16 PM
Rules: Jiraya does not start in Sage Mode.
Three summons allowed. (Each)
Starts from 100 meters away from each other.
Atmosphere: Orochimaru has "Killed" Tsunade.
No prep.
No assistances.
Fighting just outside of Konohagakure.
Who will win?

TheBlackChidori
04-17-2012, 03:44 PM
Orochimaru > Base Jiraiya. He proved this by going toe-to-toe with 4-Tails Naruto, while Jiraiya was nearly killed by 3-Tails. Jiraiya also isn't going to have the chance to summon Ma & Pa and gather the energy for Sage Mode.

But that begs the question; Do ma & pa count as two of jiraiya's summons?

JLI2infinity
04-18-2012, 01:36 AM
Orochimaru > Base Jiraiya. He proved this by going toe-to-toe with 4-Tails Naruto, while Jiraiya was nearly killed by 3-Tails. Jiraiya also isn't going to have the chance to summon Ma & Pa and gather the energy for Sage Mode.

But that begs the question; Do ma & pa count as two of jiraiya's summons?

I see this example so much, are you serious? Jiraiya was trying to figure out what was going on with the Kyuubi cloak, it was unexpected, and he cared about Naruto's well-being which is why he noticed that the cloak tore off Naruto's skin and mixed with his blood. Oro on the other hand was provoking Naruto the entire time and had no problem using deadly force (he drew the Sword of Kusanagi and tried to stab Naruto with it), he also lost an arm which shows that he was not as efficient at fighting the Kyuubi as Jiraiya was.

A Bloodlusted Jiraiya could definitely hold off Oro long enough to get into Sage Mode. Jiraiya uses his Swamp of the Underworld and fire techniques to get rid of Oro's first snake summons, he then summons Gamahiro and stalls for a few minutes...it might result in Gamahiro getting hurt badly by Oro's ninjutsu and weapons but Jiraiya would be able to summon Ma and Pa and then the fight would be over even though it would take a very long time to kill Oro. The biggest give away here is that Jiraiya is avenging Tsunade he has no emotions holding him back unlike Naruto. It was basically implied that Jiraiya never used Sage Mode against Oro and based on this last chapter it is also likely that in Sage Mode Jiraiya surpasses Oro completely which is supported by the fact that Kabuto said that Oro couldn't find the legendary snake homeland and didn't have a body that could stand sage mode.

HokageSoulReaper
04-18-2012, 01:39 AM
Call me what you will, but I think by Oro killing Tsunade, Jiraiya would beat up Oro pretty bad

FateBringsUsTogether
04-18-2012, 03:01 AM
Orochimaru > Base Jiraiya. He proved this by going toe-to-toe with 4-Tails Naruto, while Jiraiya was nearly killed by 3-Tails. Jiraiya also isn't going to have the chance to summon Ma & Pa and gather the energy for Sage Mode.

But that begs the question; Do ma & pa count as two of jiraiya's summons?

Yes they do count as summons. So do Edo Tensei summons. But only ones seen that the practitioner has summoned I.E: Orochimaru can only summon the first and second Hokage

SageKakashi
04-18-2012, 05:19 AM
Agreed with infinity. Jiraiyas love for Naruto held him back.
Jiraiya would win this imo but it would be the battle of the century.

FateBringsUsTogether
04-18-2012, 07:41 AM
I see this example so much, are you serious? Jiraiya was trying to figure out what was going on with the Kyuubi cloak, it was unexpected, and he cared about Naruto's well-being which is why he noticed that the cloak tore off Naruto's skin and mixed with his blood. Oro on the other hand was provoking Naruto the entire time and had no problem using deadly force (he drew the Sword of Kusanagi and tried to stab Naruto with it), he also lost an arm which shows that he was not as efficient at fighting the Kyuubi as Jiraiya was.

A Bloodlusted Jiraiya could definitely hold off Oro long enough to get into Sage Mode. Jiraiya uses his Swamp of the Underworld and fire techniques to get rid of Oro's first snake summons, he then summons Gamahiro and stalls for a few minutes...it might result in Gamahiro getting hurt badly by Oro's ninjutsu and weapons but Jiraiya would be able to summon Ma and Pa and then the fight would be over even though it would take a very long time to kill Oro. The biggest give away here is that Jiraiya is avenging Tsunade he has no emotions holding him back unlike Naruto. It was basically implied that Jiraiya never used Sage Mode against Oro and based on this last chapter it is also likely that in Sage Mode Jiraiya surpasses Oro completely which is supported by the fact that Kabuto said that Oro couldn't find the legendary snake homeland and didn't have a body that could stand sage mode.

^This guy is just plain awesome :D But nonetheless it would be a close battle. An emotional battle between two ex-friends. Like Naruto vs Sasuke... except Jiraya won't care anymore. It would of been nice to see this before one died and the other became really, really weird O_O

TheBlackChidori
04-18-2012, 05:32 PM
I see this example so much, are you serious? Jiraiya was trying to figure out what was going on with the Kyuubi cloak, it was unexpected, and he cared about Naruto's well-being which is why he noticed that the cloak tore off Naruto's skin and mixed with his blood. Oro on the other hand was provoking Naruto the entire time and had no problem using deadly force (he drew the Sword of Kusanagi and tried to stab Naruto with it), he also lost an arm which shows that he was not as efficient at fighting the Kyuubi as Jiraiya was.

Um. He knew as much about the Kyuubi cloak as Orochimaru did, so that doesn't matter. Just as well, losing an arm is less severe than nearly having a hole blown in your chest.

Kioroshi.
04-18-2012, 07:52 PM
Well this thread is Not fair in 1 way.There are way more Jiraiya fanboys than Oros.

Jiraiya once tried to get Oro back to village but failed so it means Oro beat him.

Sage mode lasts 5 minutes.Oro can just use Oral:rebirth and prolong the battle until its done and go for a kill.

base Jiraiya doesn'r stands a chance against Oro so he must go in sage mode and finish a battle in 5 mins till then.

Kuchiyose:Edo Tensei,Oral Rebirth,Yamata No Orochi.

we see Both have 2 "special summons" Oro has 1st and second hokage and Jiraiya has Ma and Pa frog.Then both have 1 Bonus summon Jiraiya would probably use it like he did VS pain to help him prep Sage Mode and Oro can summon Manda for that time.

We all Know Manda is Stronger than Bunta right?

I need to know does yamata No Orochi count as summon or technique?cuz I think its a forbidden technique Ninjutsu and Not Kuchiyose.

SO does someone think Ma and Pa are stronget than 1st and second?also I haven't seen jiraiya use any sealing tech besides flame seal so 1st and 2nd will be alongside Oro till Jiraiya dies. and Ma and Pa won't.I think.


I don't see Jiraiya winning.

JLI2infinity
04-19-2012, 01:15 AM
Well this thread is Not fair in 1 way.There are way more Jiraiya fanboys than Oros.

Jiraiya once tried to get Oro back to village but failed so it means Oro beat him.

Sage mode lasts 5 minutes.Oro can just use Oral:rebirth and prolong the battle until its done and go for a kill.

base Jiraiya doesn'r stands a chance against Oro so he must go in sage mode and finish a battle in 5 mins till then.

Kuchiyose:Edo Tensei,Oral Rebirth,Yamata No Orochi.

we see Both have 2 "special summons" Oro has 1st and second hokage and Jiraiya has Ma and Pa frog.Then both have 1 Bonus summon Jiraiya would probably use it like he did VS pain to help him prep Sage Mode and Oro can summon Manda for that time.

We all Know Manda is Stronger than Bunta right?

I need to know does yamata No Orochi count as summon or technique?cuz I think its a forbidden technique Ninjutsu and Not Kuchiyose.

SO does someone think Ma and Pa are stronget than 1st and second?also I haven't seen jiraiya use any sealing tech besides flame seal so 1st and 2nd will be alongside Oro till Jiraiya dies. and Ma and Pa won't.I think.


I don't see Jiraiya winning.

Jiraiya didn't use Sage Mode in his fight against Oro the first time.

Jiraiya's Sage Mode is unlimited because he fuses with Ma and Pa unlike Naruto, there goes a majority of your argument but I'll continue.

Manda is physically stronger than Gamabunta but he does not have ninjutsu which is a huge disadvantage.

It doesn't look like Oro got any prep time here and I'm assuming this is late Oro so I don't count Edo Tensei...(1) It requires prep time (2) It's not fully understood if the summons are at full power (3) I assume the most recent form of a character at full power, otherwise in every Madara thread we'd have to give him the Kyuubi as a summon.

Um. He knew as much about the Kyuubi cloak as Orochimaru did, so that doesn't matter. Just as well, losing an arm is less severe than nearly having a hole blown in your chest.

@TheBlackChidori First of all I'd rather get a deep laceration in my chest than my arm torn off look of the mortality rates for losing a limb, if Oro didn't have regeneration he was guaranteed to bleed out, that's why Jiraiya basically knew he was screwed after Pain took off his arm. Also, you didn't ignore the main point that Jiraiya was fighting to contain Naruto with as little damage as possible while Oro didn't care about Naruto's life and was fighting for fun.


^This guy is just plain awesome But nonetheless it would be a close battle. An emotional battle between two ex-friends. Like Naruto vs Sasuke... except Jiraya won't care anymore. It would of been nice to see this before one died and the other became really, really weird O_O

@FateBringsUsTogether Thanks man, and I agree.

SageKakashi
04-19-2012, 05:17 AM
Well I was going to put in my argument but it seems Infinity can handle things.

TheBlackChidori
04-19-2012, 07:52 AM
@TheBlackChidori First of all I'd rather get a deep laceration in my chest than my arm torn off look of the mortality rates for losing a limb, if Oro didn't have regeneration he was guaranteed to bleed out, that's why Jiraiya basically knew he was screwed after Pain took off his arm. Also, you didn't ignore the main point that Jiraiya was fighting to contain Naruto with as little damage as possible while Oro didn't care about Naruto's life and was fighting for fun.

I definitely don't consider that intent to kill. Orochimaru didn't summon anything once. Not Hydra, not Manda, I don't even think there were any boss snakes.

The most important thing is that Orochimaru's body was incredibly weakened during this fight. He even said at the end of the fight that the body had reached its limit, being that the 3 years were up. For that matter, he was toying with him the entire time. He let Naruto get a clean punch that knocked him several hundred meters away, and he just walked back laughing.

Let's look at some of the attacks Orochimaru has tanked dead-on.

Fire Style: Dragon Flame
Enma Staff
Tsunade's punches and kicks, which can apparently bust Susanoo?
Kyuubi punches.
Dodged Menacing Ball, via Triple Rashomon.
Chidori Spear

And several others I don't feel like mentioning. Your using his fight against 4-Tailed Naruto as a grounds for comparison, yet like I said, his body was in such poor shaped that he collapsed after he Kusanagi'd Naruto away. Jiraiya on the other hand, was completely healthy during his encounter with Naruto.

Kioroshi.
04-19-2012, 10:52 AM
Jiraiya didn't use Sage Mode in his fight against Oro the first time.



We don't know that.You are just assuming maybe he did why wouldn't he after all he seriously tried to stop Oro from leaving with all he had so its very possible he used sage mode.

He practiced it since young age and 99% is that he got it by that time.


Jiraiya's Sage Mode is unlimited because he fuses with Ma and Pa unlike Naruto, there goes a majority of your argument but I'll continue.


Chapter and page where this was stated please otherwise I will not take this into consideration.


It doesn't look like Oro got any prep time here and I'm assuming this is late Oro so I don't count Edo Tensei...(1) It requires prep time (2) It's not fully understood if the summons are at full power (3) I assume the most recent form of a character at full power, otherwise in every Madara thread we'd have to give him the Kyuubi as a summon.



Late oro?you mean the one that was so sick he could not even stand at 1 point.


Maybe he stored them in boxes somewhere and can summon them at any time?

Does hydra count as summon or just forbidden technique,I think it is a foribiden technique and not a summon.




Manda is physically stronger than Gamabunta but he does not have ninjutsu which is a huge disadvantage.


Bunta's ninjutsu is useless on Manda cuz he can just take off his skin,also It took:Katsuyu,Gamabunta,Jiraiya and Tsunade to take down manda just Bunta is not even a challenge.


TheBlackChidori took care of other things I wanted to respond too.

JLI2infinity
04-19-2012, 03:00 PM
I definitely don't consider that intent to kill. Orochimaru didn't summon anything once. Not Hydra, not Manda, I don't even think there were any boss snakes.

The most important thing is that Orochimaru's body was incredibly weakened during this fight. He even said at the end of the fight that the body had reached its limit, being that the 3 years were up. For that matter, he was toying with him the entire time. He let Naruto get a clean punch that knocked him several hundred meters away, and he just walked back laughing.

Let's look at some of the attacks Orochimaru has tanked dead-on.

Fire Style: Dragon Flame
Enma Staff
Tsunade's punches and kicks, which can apparently bust Susanoo?
Kyuubi punches.
Dodged Menacing Ball, via Triple Rashomon.
Chidori Spear

And several others I don't feel like mentioning. Your using his fight against 4-Tailed Naruto as a grounds for comparison, yet like I said, his body was in such poor shaped that he collapsed after he Kusanagi'd Naruto away. Jiraiya on the other hand, was completely healthy during his encounter with Naruto.

Oro's sword is a legendary weapon, it is said to be so sharp that Enma didn't want to get touched by it, yet Oro pulled this out and tried to stab Naruto with it you call that taking it easy, he was surprised when it didn't penetrate the Kyuubi cloak which shows he fully intended to impale Naruto. Jiraiya wouldn't dream of such a thing.

Tanking attacks is an incredible feat of durability but it shows a lack of skill. Not getting hit is a shinobi's main objective, tanking is just a back up. Notice how the Third Raikage didn't try to get hit by FRS it just happened, his first plan was to use his ridiculous speed to avoid it, Madara could've tried to tank FRS with his Susano'o but instead he used ST because once again why tank what you can avoid.

Oro lost an arm and got sent flying because he couldn't avoid the attacks not because he wanted to get ripped into pieces. He didn't let Naruto get a clean hit, he tried to punch Naruto in the face and it turned on him. If Jiraiya did that he'd die so he has to be a better fighter, hence why he was able to subdue the Kyuubi while only getting a bad cut.

Also in the anime they drew Tsunade's fight out, in the manga she punches Oro once and sends him home packing!!!

@Kioroshi

1) If he used Sage Mode against Oro do you mind explaining where Ma and Pa were.

2.) Once again thanks to viz I don't want to provide any links. Reread the chapter where Fukusaku explains Sage Mode he tells Naruto that there is a five minute limit and that he has to sit still but then says that neither of those things are problems because he and Shima are going to fuse with him and constantly gather natural energy in his place. This didn't work because Naruto had the Kyuubi inside of him rejecting them so he had to make his own solution to the time constraint.

3.) No, I meant Oro at full health but only with the abilities he had latest in the series, like I said unless you want to make Madara extremely OP in all these threads you can't give people access to summons that have been sealed such as the Kyuubi or the Hokages.

4.) Water ninjutsu like the one Gamabunta uses, usually aren't meant to be killing moves, water techniques are best used for defense and holding back / disorienting an opponent which is just what Boss Gama needs to do for Jiraiya in this situation. And Jiraiya was handicapped in his fight against Oro, at full strength he'd pwn Manda singlehandedly like he did against Pain's summons, and Tsunade took Manda down and made it look easy. It didn't require both of the Sannin and their summons it really only required one.

Kioroshi.
04-19-2012, 06:54 PM
Good point.Maybe Oro sent them back home :P cuz if Jiraiya really wanted to stop his friend he would do whatever he could and that means sage mode,simple logic dude.But yeah good point about Ma and Pa.





Must have forgot about this chapter.



No, I meant Oro at full health but only with the abilities he had latest in the series, like I said unless you want to make Madara extremely OP in all these threads you can't give people access to summons that have been sealed such as the Kyuubi or the Hokages.


You wanna say to me we disucssing Oro at full health here?He was always severelly weakened during almost all his fights,so we can say that he is AT LEAST 2x faster,stronger....Better for you if we discuss weakened sick Oro.

Water ninjutsu like the one Gamabunta uses, usually aren't meant to be killing moves, water techniques are best used for defense and holding back / disorienting an opponent which is just what Boss Gama needs to do for Jiraiya in this situation. And Jiraiya was handicapped in his fight against Oro, at full strength he'd pwn Manda singlehandedly like he did against Pain's summons, and Tsunade took Manda down and made it look easy. It didn't require both of the Sannin and their summons it really only required one.


I dount he would pawn supersonic giant snake single handedly hell even Oro was afraid of it.

you wanna say Bunta will buy jiraiya 5 mins he needs?I really doubt that Manda can eat Bunta's head or twist arond him and he can not breathe that way just like manda did to katsuyu but katsuyu is a different case.

Bunta would not hold his ground against Manda for 5 mins brah.And also Orochimaru can be on manda and attack Jiraiya while he is preping sage mode.

Like Oro was not handicaped?even more than Jiraiya but he took on 2 sannin and their summons and didn't give a ****.

I think we all agree manda is way stonger than pains summons man...


It required 2 sannin and 2 summons to take down manda while others were distracting manda Tsunade sneaked and put Bunta sword in Manda's mouth and Jiraiya doesn't even have that kind of force like tsunade.



Bro you want to take Edo Tensei Out?its 1 of Orochimaru's strongest technique and he did summon 1st and 2nd didn't he?why can't he use them here its all out battle.If you want to take Edo Tensei out Oro is handicaped and it isn't all out.

If Orochimaru summons 1st and 2nd I think we both agree Jiraiya can't win here do we?

JLI2infinity
04-19-2012, 08:21 PM
Good point.Maybe Oro sent them back home :P cuz if Jiraiya really wanted to stop his friend he would do whatever he could and that means sage mode,simple logic dude.But yeah good point about Ma and Pa.


Must have forgot about this chapter.

You wanna say to me we disucssing Oro at full health here?He was always severelly weakened during almost all his fights,so we can say that he is AT LEAST 2x faster,stronger....Better for you if we discuss weakened sick Oro.

I dount he would pawn supersonic giant snake single handedly hell even Oro was afraid of it.

you wanna say Bunta will buy jiraiya 5 mins he needs?I really doubt that Manda can eat Bunta's head or twist arond him and he can not breathe that way just like manda did to katsuyu but katsuyu is a different case.

Bunta would not hold his ground against Manda for 5 mins brah.And also Orochimaru can be on manda and attack Jiraiya while he is preping sage mode.

Like Oro was not handicaped?even more than Jiraiya but he took on 2 sannin and their summons and didn't give a ****.

I think we all agree manda is way stonger than pains summons man...


It required 2 sannin and 2 summons to take down manda while others were distracting manda Tsunade sneaked and put Bunta sword in Manda's mouth and Jiraiya doesn't even have that kind of force like tsunade.



Bro you want to take Edo Tensei Out?its 1 of Orochimaru's strongest technique and he did summon 1st and 2nd didn't he?why can't he use them here its all out battle.If you want to take Edo Tensei out Oro is handicaped and it isn't all out.

If Orochimaru summons 1st and 2nd I think we both agree Jiraiya can't win here do we?

1) Yea I'm sure that it's more logical to assume that Oro sent two S class level summons home while defeating Jiraiya all single handedly, because he's definitely shown feats of that level like when he got spanked by Old Decrepit Hiruzen and Enma. Oro was ridiculously strong but your hyping him up if you think he was able to send Ma and Pa back to Myobokuzan.

2.) Yes, Manda was very strong and yes Oro was afraid of him, but Oro was afraid for a different reason than fearing death. It's like how Jiraiya was worried that Naruto summoned Gamabunta, it's because of the unruliness of the summons. Manda isn't likely to cooperate and the last thing someone needs in a high level battle is a summon willing to turn on you at any time, it's like having a pokemon that refuses to listen to you. And once again Gamabunta is just trying to stall Manda, I already admitted he'd most likely lose.

3.) Saying Oro was more crippled is debatable, Jiraiya was feeling the effects of the poison for the entire battle, he couldn't even summon a mid-sized frog correctly, at his full strength Jiraiya could do that in his sleep. He also couldn't defend himself completely with his hair technique that was strong enough to kill Pain's summon the first time.

4.) I love how Oro fans hype up the Sannin fight so much, it's like how Hiruzen fans hype up his fight with the First and Second Hokage. The fight barely lasted and all parties were below par with Oro probably being the most emotionally stable not having to worry about anyone but himself like most villains. Jiraiya couldn't use his ninjutsu and Tsunade was having a psychological breakdown as soon as she started fighting she demonstrated that at her full capacity she was at least superior to crippled Jiraiya and crippled Oro because she ended the fight in about a minute....here's what happened

-Tsunade summons Katsuyu
-Manda dodges Katsuyu and Jiraiya-Gambunta's Attack
-Manda comes out to sneak attack and gets stabbed in the mouth by Tsunade
-Tsunade grabs Oro by the tongue and hits him with one punch
-Fight OVER

5.) I already explained why I'm not counting Edo Tensei, Oro's version isn't well understood (like how powerful the Edos are and how he controls them), it takes prep time which isn't allowed here, and the Hokages got sealed.

Kioroshi.
04-20-2012, 10:07 AM
I already explained why I'm not counting Edo Tensei, Oro's version isn't well understood (like how powerful the Edos are and how he controls them), it takes prep time which isn't allowed here, and the Hokages got sealed.


Okay now Kabuto cannot use Edo Tensei to revive all those sealed shinobi in debates?so basically he only has Muu,Madara and a few others...


I love how Oro fans hype up the Sannin fight so much, it's like how Hiruzen fans hype up his fight with the First and Second Hokage. The fight barely lasted and all parties were below par with Oro probably being the most emotionally stable not having to worry about anyone but himself like most villains. Jiraiya couldn't use his ninjutsu and Tsunade was having a psychological breakdown as soon as she started fighting she demonstrated that at her full capacity she was at least superior to crippled Jiraiya and crippled Oro because she ended the fight in about a minute....here's what happened

-Tsunade summons Katsuyu
-Manda dodges Katsuyu and Jiraiya-Gambunta's Attack
-Manda comes out to sneak attack and gets stabbed in the mouth by Tsunade
-Tsunade grabs Oro by the tongue and hits him with one punch
-Fight OVER




So you are accusing me of being an oro fan?so if you can't win debate normally you go to accuse the opposite debater of something?very nice...


Orochimarus fight with hiruzen was not all-out at all from Orochimarus side,He wanted to toy with emotions of his master and see whats that jutsu Hiruzen was talking about,He didn't even fight at all he just sent 2nd and 1st to fight while he watches.


Jiraiya couldn't use his ninjutsu and Tsunade was having a psychological breakdown as soon as she started fighting she demonstrated that at her full capacity she was at least superior to crippled Jiraiya and crippled Oro because she ended the fight in about a minute....here's what happened



I remember him using swamp of the underworld (if the name is right) on other side Orochimaru couldn't use Ninjutsu OR his hands for taijutsu he could only fight with his heads and legs.

I remember Tsunade getting beat by Kabuto did that happen in the manga?I was still watching anime at that point.


Saying Oro was more crippled is debatable, Jiraiya was feeling the effects of the poison for the entire battle, he couldn't even summon a mid-sized frog correctly, at his full strength Jiraiya could do that in his sleep. He also couldn't defend himself completely with his hair technique that was strong enough to kill Pain's summon the first time.



big deal Orochimaru could not use his hands for entire battle not even an weak simple jutsu or taijutsu with his hands.


Yes, Manda was very strong and yes Oro was afraid of him, but Oro was afraid for a different reason than fearing death. It's like how Jiraiya was worried that Naruto summoned Gamabunta, it's because of the unruliness of the summons. Manda isn't likely to cooperate and the last thing someone needs in a high level battle is a summon willing to turn on you at any time, it's like having a pokemon that refuses to listen to you. And once again Gamabunta is just trying to stall Manda, I already admitted he'd most likely lose.



Now the question is can Bunta stall Manda for 5 minutes?



Yea I'm sure that it's more logical to assume that Oro sent two S class level summons home while defeating Jiraiya all single handedly, because he's definitely shown feats of that level like when he got spanked by Old Decrepit Hiruzen and Enma. Oro was ridiculously strong but your hyping him up if you think he was able to send Ma and Pa back to Myobokuzan.



Said about Hiruzen VS Orochimaru earlier.


Imagine it this way:Oro goes from the village Jiraiya hears about it and goes to stop him.He finally catches him and says

"Orochimaru!I am going to stop you from walking the wrong ninja path!" (`:P) Oro

Oro says:"haha you can try it!"

Jiraiya says:"Ok then we will finally settle who is stronger by this fight!"

Maybe:Jiraiya preps sage mode and Oro wants to see what is that and waits Jiraiya goes into sage mode and attacks with Ma and Pa on his shoulders.

Orochimaru beats him.And he learns about sage mode and goes to his hideout and eventually he searches for Ryuchidou

Maybe he learned about sage jutsu from Jiraiya but thats not for narutoverse.

JLI2infinity
04-20-2012, 07:34 PM
Okay now Kabuto cannot use Edo Tensei to revive all those sealed shinobi in debates?so basically he only has Muu,Madara and a few others...

So you are accusing me of being an oro fan?so if you can't win debate normally you go to accuse the opposite debater of something?very nice...

Orochimarus fight with hiruzen was not all-out at all from Orochimarus side,He wanted to toy with emotions of his master and see whats that jutsu Hiruzen was talking about,He didn't even fight at all he just sent 2nd and 1st to fight while he watches.

I remember him using swamp of the underworld (if the name is right) on other side Orochimaru couldn't use Ninjutsu OR his hands for taijutsu he could only fight with his heads and legs.

I remember Tsunade getting beat by Kabuto did that happen in the manga?I was still watching anime at that point.

big deal Orochimaru could not use his hands for entire battle not even an weak simple jutsu or taijutsu with his hands.

Now the question is can Bunta stall Manda for 5 minutes?

Said about Hiruzen VS Orochimaru earlier.

Imagine it this way:Oro goes from the village Jiraiya hears about it and goes to stop him.He finally catches him and says

"Orochimaru!I am going to stop you from walking the wrong ninja path!" (`:P) Oro

Oro says:"haha you can try it!"

Jiraiya says:"Ok then we will finally settle who is stronger by this fight!"

Maybe:Jiraiya preps sage mode and Oro wants to see what is that and waits Jiraiya goes into sage mode and attacks with Ma and Pa on his shoulders.

Orochimaru beats him.And he learns about sage mode and goes to his hideout and eventually he searches for Ryuchidou

Maybe he learned about sage jutsu from Jiraiya but thats not for narutoverse.

1.) None of the shinobi Kabuto uses had been sealed in the past, read the manga carefully.

2.) I accused you of being an Oro fan because you were doing what fans of characters tend to do, hyping up his achievements and giving him feats outside of what's he's demonstrated. And I can win this debate without saying something like this I was just pointing it out. Last time I checked you've been the only one who's had to recant some of his statements in this debate because they were incorrect, but I won't call you an Oro fan if you say you aren't I'll just stick to the facts

3.) Irrelevant because I explained why there's no ET.

4.) Tsunade got beat by Kabuto because of her hemophobia which I mentioned, everything I stated about the Sannin fight was true.

5.) Yes because Oro's the type to give someone prep time in the middle of a fight to beat him...that's why he went to stab a downed, defenseless Naruto in his fight, he's so honorable. Why on earth would Oro let Jiraiya turn into a Sage in their fight? That would be the most idiotic thing he's ever done and completely out of character, Oro is a snake that preys on the weak whenever an opportunity rears its head. He was going to attack Itachi from behind, he went into the Forest of Death to attack a group of genin, he was going to kill Naruto because he didn't want Naruto to get stronger in the future, he told Kabuto about Tsunade's weakness so he could increase his chances of victory. Oro has no ethics in battle he's not the kind to fight fair.

Your whole theory is that Oro let Jiraiya turn into a Sage, completely defeated Sage Jiraiya without getting a single scratch, then defeated Ma and Pa when that trio could've killed the Six Paths of Pain...yet this same guy got pwned by young Itachi who feared for his life if he had to face Jiraiya in part 1. If Oro was this strong he would have no fear the Akatsuki unless they attacked him in pairs.

Kioroshi.
04-21-2012, 10:26 AM
None of the shinobi Kabuto uses had been sealed in the past, read the manga carefully.


You don't even make sense.I didn't say Kabuto's edo tensei were sealed in the past but they were sealed a while ago and now Kabuto can't use them for Edo Tensei?I am saying that almost all of them had been sealed by your logic he can only use Muu,Madara and those few in debates from now cuz they got sealed.I think you don't understand Narutoverse well here we debate all-out battle and if we were to debate from every single thing in the manga I could say this fight won't happen cuz both are dead.

Orochimaru CAN use Edo Tensei in this debate.

Yes because Oro's the type to give someone prep time in the middle of a fight to beat him...that's why he went to stab a downed, defenseless Naruto in his fight, he's so honorable. Why on earth would Oro let Jiraiya turn into a Sage in their fight? That would be the most idiotic thing he's ever done and completely out of character, Oro is a snake that preys on the weak whenever an opportunity rears its head. He was going to attack Itachi from behind, he went into the Forest of Death to attack a group of genin, he was going to kill Naruto because he didn't want Naruto to get stronger in the future, he told Kabuto about Tsunade's weakness so he could increase his chances of victory. Oro has no ethics in battle he's not the kind to fight fair.



He let Hiruzen show him his jutsu because he was curious what jutsu could that be.Maybe their fight (jiraiya and oro)is where Jiraiya first showed him Sage Mode and thats why Oro left him alone for 5 min.And even if it wasn't the case you just pointed out that if jiraiya didn't use sage mode Orochimaru beat base Jiraiya without a scratch.


Your whole theory is that Oro let Jiraiya turn into a Sage, completely defeated Sage Jiraiya without getting a single scratch, then defeated Ma and Pa when that trio could've killed the Six Paths of Pain...yet this same guy got pwned by young Itachi who feared for his life if he had to face Jiraiya in part 1. If Oro was this strong he would have no fear the Akatsuki unless they attacked him in pairs.


I don't think itachi really feared for his life then he acted that way in front of Kisame.Itachi would pwn Jiraiya like just he did to Orochimaru.Susano'o,Amaterasu,Tsukuyomi....

Neither Oro or Jiraiya are match for Itachi I think we all agree here.

I don't remember Orochimaru fear akatsuki.Pls tell me where he showed he fears them chapter and page.



Black Chidori where did you go?

JLI2infinity
04-21-2012, 08:06 PM
QUOTE=Kioroshi.;6004780]You don't even make sense.I didn't say Kabuto's edo tensei were sealed in the past but they were sealed a while ago and now Kabuto can't use them for Edo Tensei?I am saying that almost all of them had been sealed by your logic he can only use Muu,Madara and those few in debates from now cuz they got sealed.I think you don't understand Narutoverse well here we debate all-out battle and if we were to debate from every single thing in the manga I could say this fight won't happen cuz both are dead.

Orochimaru CAN use Edo Tensei in this debate.

He let Hiruzen show him his jutsu because he was curious what jutsu could that be.

[/QUOTE]

First of all, if you've ever been to a Kabuto battle thread he isn't allowed to use Edo Tensei at all because it's obviously an automatic win so no point in bringing his character up, that's too much of an exception.

Ok I'll let Oro use Edo Tensei here if you can answer these questions with 100% certainty...

Are Hashirama and Tobirama at their full strength under Oro's control?
Can Oro move when he uses ET or does he have to control the hand signs of his Edo summons for them to perform techniques?
When did he gain the first and second for use in combat?

Do you know why I banned Edo Tensei (other than it being a hack that uses someone else's power instead of your own) because it isn't well understood, Kabuto is the first person to explain it in detail yet he hasn't completely explained how his version is "superior" to Oro's, not enough is understood about Oro's Edo Tensei and none of those questions have been confirmed on panel AND it requires prep time which Oro doesn't have.

Even if you could answer all those questions which would be impossible here's the real problem with Edo Tensei, it is pathetic, it's for a spineless coward. It's like hiring Mike Tyson as your bodyguard and then saying you're the strongest person in the room. It's not like this is some impossible technique to learn as a matter of fact I think if Jiraiya or Tsunade tried they'd be just as capable of using the move but they won't because an Edo summon requires the sacrifice of other human beings. It's like if someone said you could gain the ultimate power by shooting your mother in the head, any moron could do it it's just something you shouldn't do, this is kind of why I don't respect Mangekyo Sharingan to some degree but that's a different debate.


Maybe their fight (jiraiya and oro)is where Jiraiya first showed him Sage Mode and thats why Oro left him alone for 5 min.And even if it wasn't the case you just pointed out that if jiraiya didn't use sage mode Orochimaru beat base Jiraiya without a scratch.

I don't think itachi really feared for his life then he acted that way in front of Kisame.Itachi would pwn Jiraiya like just he did to Orochimaru.Susano'o,Amaterasu,Tsukuyomi....

Neither Oro or Jiraiya are match for Itachi I think we all agree here.

I don't remember Orochimaru fear akatsuki.Pls tell me where he showed he fears them chapter and page.


I already explained to you why letting an opponent gain a power bonus that would give them the upper hand is out of character for Oro. And Oro could've beaten base Jiraiya by simply playing off of his emotions which is actually something in line with his character. If someone just happened to see the beginning of Naruto's fight against Sasuke and saw Sasuke with his hand ripping a whole open in Naruto's chest they wouldn't know that the two are equally powerful shinobi it would just look like Sasuke pwned Naruto.

And I don't agree with you that part 1 Itachi was stronger than Jiraiya, I don't think he'd mastered his MS well enough yet. He had to retreat after using Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu in succession because he was too tired. I don't think he had the stamina to take Jiraiya down.

If Oro was as powerful as you say he is then why did he retreat when his plan to surprise attack Itachi failed. He could've just regenerated his arm and kept fighting instead he quit Akatsuki and ran away, why wouldn't he fight Itachi for the body? It was because he was afraid.

Do you think leaving Team Kakashi alive so that they could take out Akatsuki even though they were clearly enemies is the sign of someone who's not afraid? Oro didn't act like Tobi, confident in victory and not bothering to watch his own back, Oro told Sasuke not to kill Naruto so that he could help him take out Akatsuki, if that's not fear I don't know what you call it.

Kioroshi.
04-22-2012, 10:09 AM
First of all, if you've ever been to a Kabuto battle thread he isn't allowed to use Edo Tensei at all because it's obviously an automatic win so no point in bringing his character up, that's too much of an exception.

Ok I'll let Oro use Edo Tensei here if you can answer these questions with 100% certainty...

Are Hashirama and Tobirama at their full strength under Oro's control?
Can Oro move when he uses ET or does he have to control the hand signs of his Edo summons for them to perform techniques?
When did he gain the first and second for use in combat?

Do you know why I banned Edo Tensei (other than it being a hack that uses someone else's power instead of your own) because it isn't well understood, Kabuto is the first person to explain it in detail yet he hasn't completely explained how his version is "superior" to Oro's, not enough is understood about Oro's Edo Tensei and none of those questions have been confirmed on panel AND it requires prep time which Oro doesn't have.

Even if you could answer all those questions which would be impossible here's the real problem with Edo Tensei, it is pathetic, it's for a spineless coward. It's like hiring Mike Tyson as your bodyguard and then saying you're the strongest person in the room. It's not like this is some impossible technique to learn as a matter of fact I think if Jiraiya or Tsunade tried they'd be just as capable of using the move but they won't because an Edo summon requires the sacrifice of other human beings. It's like if someone said you could gain the ultimate power by shooting your mother in the head, any moron could do it it's just something you shouldn't do, this is kind of why I don't respect Mangekyo Sharingan to some degree but that's a different debate.



True I haven't been in a lot of Kabuto threads,an automatic win ehh?you kinda proved my point here.if Orochimaru were to use Edo Tensei its automatic win hehe :D thx for that.


I can't answer them all.Lets try.

1.Probably if he wants them to be.

2.Yes.I don't see why not.

3.Well probably in his "dark days" in the leaf he did some grave robbing and got DNA.Leaf doesn't protect their dead bodies well.

Maybe he got new seal for their personality or somethin like that but true that isn't for this kind of debate.

oro doesn't have prep time?well Jiraiya needs 5 minutes to prep sage mode and he will be running around on a frog Orochimaru can send manda to deal with Bunta and Jiraiya and prepare some Edo Tensei those 5 minutes then jiraiya is dead man.



I already explained to you why letting an opponent gain a power bonus that would give them the upper hand is out of character for Oro. And Oro could've beaten base Jiraiya by simply playing off of his emotions which is actually something in line with his character. If someone just happened to see the beginning of Naruto's fight against Sasuke and saw Sasuke with his hand ripping a whole open in Naruto's chest they wouldn't know that the two are equally powerful shinobi it would just look like Sasuke pwned Naruto.




He actually did it several time in order to have some fun while fighting
1)he let hiruzen use his sealing jutsu
2)he let Naruto fully transform into 4 tailed form

why wouldn't he do it against jiraiya too especially since they were rivals from childhood so he would want a serious all-out fight before leaving.


You said Oro was without a scratch and its true so even if Jiraiya didn't use sage mode then Base Jiraiya got beat by Oro without having a single scratch.


I remember sasuke pretty worn out after that fight too.he wasn't really "without a scratch" ;)



And I don't agree with you that part 1 Itachi was stronger than Jiraiya, I don't think he'd mastered his MS well enough yet. He had to retreat after using Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu in succession because he was too tired. I don't think he had the stamina to take Jiraiya down.



was that the same day he used tsukuyomi against Kakashi?then it was 2 tsukuyomis and 1 amaterasu this just proves how Itachi has small stamina and how exausting MS techniques are.

Also you cannot possibly think those 2 feread for their lifes against Jiraiya when it was 2 v 1,Kisame could get the best of jiraiya out and then Itachi could just finish with 1 tsukuyomi or 1 tsukuyomi could finish the fight...I don't see Jiraiya having something to counter MS techniques he would get pwned.




If Oro was as powerful as you say he is then why did he retreat when his plan to surprise attack Itachi failed. He could've just regenerated his arm and kept fighting instead he quit Akatsuki and ran away, why wouldn't he fight Itachi for the body? It was because he was afraid.



Well here I will need some understanding from your side.

You see its possible that Itachi was stronger than Oro then but we all cannot be quite sure.He couldve regenerated and kept fighting but I think He had some other motives too he took something from Madara and tobi and thats why he ran away not because of itachi.

Why wouldn't he fight itachi for the body?hmm well he could but he knew about sasuke who he assumpted could actually have better body than Itachi and if you wanted something would you rather try to take it from chuck Norris or a child if they have same thing you want?



Do you think leaving Team Kakashi alive so that they could take out Akatsuki even though they were clearly enemies is the sign of someone who's not afraid? Oro didn't act like Tobi, confident in victory and not bothering to watch his own back, Oro told Sasuke not to kill Naruto so that he could help him take out Akatsuki, if that's not fear I don't know what you call it.



I guess you don't understand word fear the right way.If he feared akatsuki he would not even try to kill their members he would just keep his head low and avoid them.

Orochimaru left team kakashi alive because they Killed akatsuki members which HELPED him in his "war" against them,He saw them as easy prey and left them alive so they HELP him and take out a few more akatsuki.so when he bring all akatsuki down he could kill team kakashi because they are weaker than akatsuki AND it was a big possibility they would get eliminated by akatsuki themselves.So he kills 2 birds with 1 stone.

It was tactic not fear.

JLI2infinity
04-22-2012, 10:12 PM
True I haven't been in a lot of Kabuto threads,an automatic win ehh?you kinda proved my point here.if Orochimaru were to use Edo Tensei its automatic win hehe :D thx for that.

I can't answer them all.Lets try.

1.Probably if he wants them to be.

2.Yes.I don't see why not.

3.Well probably in his "dark days" in the leaf he did some grave robbing and got DNA.Leaf doesn't protect their dead bodies well.

Maybe he got new seal for their personality or somethin like that but true that isn't for this kind of debate.

oro doesn't have prep time?well Jiraiya needs 5 minutes to prep sage mode and he will be running around on a frog Orochimaru can send manda to deal with Bunta and Jiraiya and prepare some Edo Tensei those 5 minutes then jiraiya is dead man.

He actually did it several time in order to have some fun while fighting
1)he let hiruzen use his sealing jutsu
2)he let Naruto fully transform into 4 tailed form

why wouldn't he do it against jiraiya too especially since they were rivals from childhood so he would want a serious all-out fight before leaving.

You said Oro was without a scratch and its true so even if Jiraiya didn't use sage mode then Base Jiraiya got beat by Oro without having a single scratch.

I remember sasuke pretty worn out after that fight too.he wasn't really "without a scratch" ;)

was that the same day he used tsukuyomi against Kakashi?then it was 2 tsukuyomis and 1 amaterasu this just proves how Itachi has small stamina and how exausting MS techniques are.

Also you cannot possibly think those 2 feread for their lifes against Jiraiya when it was 2 v 1,Kisame could get the best of jiraiya out and then Itachi could just finish with 1 tsukuyomi or 1 tsukuyomi could finish the fight...I don't see Jiraiya having something to counter MS techniques he would get pwned.

Well here I will need some understanding from your side.

You see its possible that Itachi was stronger than Oro then but we all cannot be quite sure.He couldve regenerated and kept fighting but I think He had some other motives too he took something from Madara and tobi and thats why he ran away not because of itachi.

Why wouldn't he fight itachi for the body?hmm well he could but he knew about sasuke who he assumpted could actually have better body than Itachi and if you wanted something would you rather try to take it from chuck Norris or a child if they have same thing you want?



1.) Your answers had no manga support for them at all you were just assuming because you want Oro to win.

-We can't know if they were at full power because neither of them showed feats that represented what they are capable of (e.g. Hashirama making a forest, Tobirama making lakes). Oro probably hadn't perfected ET yet which is why Kabuto said he'd surpassed him.

-We don't know if Oro can move while his Edos use techniques, because if you read the manga carefully you'd see that Oro had to stand there and actually make the hand signs for Tobirama to use a water technique.

2.) I've already addressed this Bunta jumps in the air and stalls. Jiraiya also isn't just helpless when he's collecting chakra. He can create barriers (to prevent Manda's underground sneak attacks) by just clapping his heels together, he can also use his hair techniques which were strong enough to crush Pain's crab summon, and he can use taijutsu (he had the physical strength to send Pain's summons flying with a kick to the face). And you just made up the five minute figure, we don't know how long it takes it could be shorter or longer.

3.) Oro wanted to see Hiruzen use a lot of techniques to defend himself against attacks from the Edo Kages read again, he didn't just sit there and let Hiruzen use the DDS, the reason that happened was because only the user of the fuinjutsu can see the Death God, Oro didn't know what was going on until after Hiruzen grabbed him, then Oro was extremely afraid which is why he tried to stab Hiruzen with Kusanagi.

4.) Oro provoked Naruto to a state of pure rage where Naruto could no longer think of strategies to defeat Oro anymore. The most Oro thought he could do was physical damage which wouldn't matter because of regen. That is different than letting someone with the potential to beat you reach their peak form, he wouldn't even let Jiraiya perform hand signs when they fought for Tsunade. It is possible that he let Jiraiya use Sage Mode but once again I say it is unlikely because you've yet to explain to me why if that was the case Jiraiya wasn't in Sage Mode in the flashback and Ma and Pa had disappeared.

5.) I'm talking about the beginning of the fight before Naruto used the Kyuubi...Sasuke just grabbed Naruto by the collar and stabbed him through the chest because Naruto was emotionally broken. Oro could've defeated Jiraiya when Jiraiya was confused and won without a scratch even though the two were equal in power.

6. )
I guess you don't understand word fear the right way.If he feared akatsuki he would not even try to kill their members he would just keep his head low and avoid them.

Orochimaru left team kakashi alive because they Killed akatsuki members which HELPED him in his "war" against them,He saw them as easy prey and left them alive so they HELP him and take out a few more akatsuki.so when he bring all akatsuki down he could kill team kakashi because they are weaker than akatsuki AND it was a big possibility they would get eliminated by akatsuki themselves.So he kills 2 birds with 1 stone.

It was tactic not fear.

That's EXACTLY what Oro did. He ran from hide out to hide out avoiding confrontation so he could do his research until he could take Sasuke's body. Oro didn't defeat ONE member of Akatsuki. He was afraid of them, he knew he needed to get stronger before he could take them on, he wasn't as powerful as you claim. Yes his move was tactical and brilliant but it was a clear sign that he worried about Akatsuki stopping his success.

You have some great arguments here and I am acknowledging that this would be an epic battle but there are just too many details about the manga you didn't notice.

Kioroshi.
04-25-2012, 04:38 PM
ehh I want to respond but I have been waiting manga chapter and will we get new info on these things in this thread.so you will have to wait a little while.

TobiramaSenju307
07-13-2012, 05:42 AM
oro has more hax ninjutsus and can counter what jiraiya has.
formation of ten thousand snakes covers the battlefield in small snakes all with poisonous bites and swords. kusanagi can extend as well as float in mid air. very versatile weapon and nigh unbreakable. oro has poison in true form if it comes to that. and jiraiya has almost no answer for hydra or oros immortality. if you remember he can block the toad flame bullet with either a giant snake or rashomon gate defence. jiraiyas got nothing to dent that thing. not to mention incomplete sage mode.
he doesnt need edo tensei to win this battle.

Tsunade's punches and kicks, which can apparently bust Susanoo?
he never tanked that

Itachi would pwn Jiraiya like just he did to Orochimaru.Susano'o,Amaterasu,Tsukuyomi....
none of which are very effective considering their cost and oro's vast knowledge on almost everything. amaterasus countered by oral rebirth. tsukiyomi by sage mode sensing. susano by poisoned blood fumes or formation of ten thousand snakes

PrinceofPeace
07-13-2012, 01:09 PM
Oro wins he is immortal and even if he did lose he can be resurected form a curse mark and comes back to kill Oro