Suigetsu vs. Itachi [Archive] - Naruto Discussion Forum

Gaia

04-05-2012, 01:08 PM

just because you prepare for something, that does not mean that he can stop it. So Shisui Uchiha's Kotoamatsukami would not work because he has prepared for it and has knowledge.Anything that requires eye contact or for the victim to do something specific to fall into the genjutsu fails because Suigetsu knows not to do that thing.

What genjutsu can Itachi use that doesn't require Suigetsu to look at his hand, eyes etc. and that simply 'works'? There isn't one, Suigetsu has knowledge of all of Itachi's genjutsu, he can easily avoid them all.

Amaterasu keeps on buning untill the target is completly "destroyed". Sorry its just I thought Zetsu had no reason to lie. Plus when Sasuke used it on KB it hit the water and continued to burn. It even burned fire so I assume it can burn water.That's quite an incredible no limits fallacy, regardless of Zetsu is lying or not. For one, he's no all-knowing being, and for two, what happens when a shield that "can't be destroyed by anything" comes along? Then what? I spot a contradiction.

Amaterasu has been shown burning horrible ineffectively against armor, regular clothing and sand before, I highly doubt it will be effective at all in water, especially when it is a lake and Suigetsu is entirely omnipresent within the bounds of his water. He can shrug off Amaterasu, Itachi has nothing to hurt him.

Kuromaki

04-05-2012, 01:11 PM

Amaterasu would have to burn the entire lake if it wants to kill Suigetsu. Which will take forever. Meanwhile, Itachi would be put at risk too.
And no Kuro, Itachi can see Suigetsu's chakra moving around underwater. He can still dodge
I'm not exactly sure how Sharingan chakra seeing works, but how when it would be spread all around the water? It would be everywhere.

Kakashi11

04-05-2012, 01:17 PM

Anything that requires eye contact or for the victim to do something specific to fall into the genjutsu fails because Suigetsu knows not to do that thing.

What genjutsu can Itachi use that doesn't require Suigetsu to look at his hand, eyes etc. and that simply 'works'? There isn't one, Suigetsu has knowledge of all of Itachi's genjutsu, he can easily avoid them all.

That's quite an incredible no limits fallacy, regardless of Zetsu is lying or not. For one, he's no all-knowing being, and for two, what happens when a shield that "can't be destroyed by anything" comes along? Then what? I spot a contradiction.

Amaterasu has been shown burning horrible ineffectively against armor, regular clothing and sand before, I highly doubt it will be effective at all in water, especially when it is a lake and Suigetsu is entirely omnipresent within the bounds of his water. He can shrug off Amaterasu, Itachi has nothing to hurt him.

So suigetsu is gonna try fight sussano Itachi without looking above the waist, thats not easy to do for any kind of ninja, except Guy who spent years training

what armor or clothing did it struggle to burn through

megabbaut

04-05-2012, 01:18 PM

Why can't Suigetsu just turn into water, slide under Susanoo, and cut Itachi's head off from the inside?

Kakashi11

04-05-2012, 01:21 PM

Why can't Suigetsu just turn into water, slide under Susanoo, and cut Itachi's head off from the inside?

Itachi would notice probally

But putting the battle in water is basically giving victory to Sui most of the time

Does Itachi have the ability to turn to crows if so that could be useful?

Gaia

04-05-2012, 01:21 PM

So suigetsu is gonna try fight sussano Itachi without looking above the waist, thats not easy to do for any kind of ninja, except Guy who spent years training

what armor or clothing did it struggle to burn through
It's fairly easy to do when the opponent also has no way to hurt you. Suigetsu should be able to fight at his own pace.

It struggled to burn through Samurai armor while A dodged the Amaterasu. It struggled to burn through karin's clothes. It struggled to burn through Nagato's clothes. It struggled to do anything to Gaara's sand as well. Meanwhile, the literal opposite, arch enemy of fire is water. This won't be a problem for Suigetsu and his Suitons.
Why can't Suigetsu just turn into water, slide under Susanoo, and cut Itachi's head off from the inside?
He can, there isn't a reason why he can't.

Ultimate combatant

04-05-2012, 01:23 PM

Itachi wins this because of superior skills, techniques, speed, techniques, strength, techniques, intelligence, techniques and so on!!! :D

Kakashi11

04-05-2012, 01:23 PM

It's fairly easy to do when the opponent also has no way to hurt you. Suigetsu should be able to fight at his own pace.

It struggled to burn through Samurai armor while A dodged the Amaterasu. It struggled to burn through karin's clothes. It struggled to burn through Nagato's clothes. It struggled to do anything to Gaara's sand as well. Meanwhile, the literal opposite, arch enemy of fire is water. This won't be a problem for Suigetsu and his Suitons.

He can, there isn't a reason why he can't.

Fair Enough Bro
Well done :)

MinatoXNaruto

04-05-2012, 01:25 PM

Suigetsu has full knowledge, genjutsu is useless.
Suigetsu can't defend against Izanami. Also Itachi is able to activate Susanoo in a split second, shown when he blocked against Sasuke's Kirin. Itachi doesn't have to have Susanoo active all the time. All he has to do is wait for Suigetsu to attack then block it

Gaia

04-05-2012, 01:25 PM

Itachi wins this because of superior skills, techniques, speed, techniques, strength, techniques, intelligence, techniques and so on!!! :D
What if the person who outclasses the other person in every category has a horrible weakness and dies instantly if they face a person with X ability. Being better wouldn't really matter then.
Fair Enough Bro
Well done :)
Thanks. You too sir.

Kuromaki

04-05-2012, 01:25 PM

Itachi wins this because of superior skills, techniques, speed, techniques, strength, techniques, intelligence, techniques and so on!!! :D
Can you explain how hes gonna use those superior techniques to do anything to suigetsu? The guy can turn into water that negates 90% of what he has. Now he has knowledge too, that gets rid of genjutsu.

MinatoXNaruto

04-05-2012, 01:27 PM

Every jutsu has a weakness. Itachi would find out the weakness to Suigetsu's water ability in a heart beat

Kakashi11

04-05-2012, 01:29 PM

Every jutsu has a weakness. Itachi would find out the weakness to Suigetsu's water ability in a heart beat

like how he figured out the secret to Edo Tensai in a heartbeat :)

MinatoXNaruto

04-05-2012, 01:30 PM

like how he figured out the secret to Edo Tensai in a heartbeat :)
Exactly

Gaia

04-05-2012, 01:30 PM

Suigetsu can't defend against Izanami. Also Itachi is able to activate Susanoo in a split second, shown when he blocked against Sasuke's Kirin. Itachi doesn't have to have Susanoo active all the time. All he has to do is wait for Suigetsu to attack then block it
..I was going to restrict Izanami, simply for the fact we have absolutely no idea what it does. But I didn't, because I didn't think anyone would bring it into the picture keeping that aforementioned fact about we have no idea what it does in mind.

That's fine, so Itachi wastes chakra and time activating Susano'o while it's entirely useless. Meanwhile, on the off chance he can sit in it forever and Suigetsu can't break through it, two things are to take into account.

First that Itachi conversely literally has nothing to affect Suigetsu. Second that Suigetsu can easily exploit Susano'o's-'feet' weakness to kill him.

Kakashi11

04-05-2012, 01:32 PM

Exactly

you know I was kidding right

Ultimate combatant

04-05-2012, 01:37 PM

What if the person who outclasses the other person in every category has a horrible weakness and dies instantly if they face a person with X ability. Being better wouldn't really matter then.

Thanks. You too sir.

That means he doesn`t outclass him in survivability, does it? Though I don`t see what you are trying to say. It is not like Itachi is allergic to water, salt or something like that.

Can you explain how hes gonna use those superior techniques to do anything to suigetsu? The guy can turn into water that negates 90% of what he has. Now he has knowledge too, that gets rid of genjutsu.

I`m pretty sure Amaterasu burns even water, Suigetsu is still weak to Totsuka sword (or whatever it`s name is), Naruto knew about Genjutsu, but it didn`t help him much, did it? And it is not like he got caught only once!!! :D
Also, since there are no restrictions, so I say Itachi can use Izanami. Even if it wasn`t shown doesn`t mean he cannot use it. So, he can use it. Next thing you ask: Is Izanami strong enough to beat Suigetsu. Fair enough. Whether you believe me right now or not, wait a week or two and you`ll see for yourself that Izanami could deal with Suigetsu!!! :D

Kuromaki

04-05-2012, 01:39 PM

I`m pretty sure Amaterasu burns even water, Suigetsu is still weak to Totsuka sword (or whatever it`s name is), Naruto knew about Genjutsu, but it didn`t help him much, did it? And it is not like he got caught only once!!! :D
Also, since there are no restrictions, so I say Itachi can use Izanami. Even if it wasn`t shown doesn`t mean he cannot use it. So, he can use it. Next thing you ask: Is Izanami strong enough to beat Suigetsu. Fair enough. Whether you believe me right now or not, wait a week or two and you`ll see for yourself that Izanami could deal with Suigetsu!!! :D
This was all addressed earlier.

vermillion rage 7

04-05-2012, 01:42 PM

itachi points his finger gg

MinatoXNaruto

04-05-2012, 01:45 PM

you know I was kidding right
Of course I did, I can play that game to ;)

Kakashi11

04-05-2012, 01:47 PM

Of course I did, I can play that game to ;)

what game?

Gaia

04-05-2012, 01:48 PM

That means he doesn`t outclass him in survivability, does it? Though I don`t see what you are trying to say. It is not like Itachi is allergic to water, salt or something like that.
He's not, but regardless of how much smarter or how better his jutsu are in comparison to Suigetsu, simply comparing their stats won't do anything when Itachi has nothing to hurt Suigetsu, or his jutsu can't do anything.
I`m pretty sure Amaterasu burns even water, Suigetsu is still weak to Totsuka sword (or whatever it`s name is), Naruto knew about Genjutsu, but it didn`t help him much, did it? And it is not like he got caught only once!!! :DRegardless, Amaterasu isn't burning a lake and Suigetsu is allowed to move around here.
Also, since there are no restrictions, so I say Itachi can use Izanami. Even if it wasn`t shown doesn`t mean he cannot use it. So, he can use it. Next thing you ask: Is Izanami strong enough to beat Suigetsu. Fair enough. Whether you believe me right now or not, wait a week or two and you`ll see for yourself that Izanami could deal with Suigetsu!!! :DHe can use it but if we don't know what it can do so it's useless here. I also doubt he'd willingly use it as it gets rid of one of his eyes forever. It's not like Tobi was super willing to use Izanagi to survive Konan's ocean jutsu.

Ultimate combatant

04-05-2012, 02:15 PM

He's not, but regardless of how much smarter or how better his jutsu are in comparison to Suigetsu, simply comparing their stats won't do anything when Itachi has nothing to hurt Suigetsu, or his jutsu can't do anything.
Regardless, Amaterasu isn't burning a lake and Suigetsu is allowed to move around here.
He can use it but if we don't know what it can do so it's useless here. I also doubt he'd willingly use it as it gets rid of one of his eyes forever. It's not like Tobi was super willing to use Izanagi to survive Konan's ocean jutsu.

Comparing stats is not bad, in situations when both fighters have little to no chance of hurting their opponent with direct attack!!! :D

Amaterasu will burn as long as the thing set on Amaterasu is not burned. That would include lake, probably. Though it would take days, weeks, months maybe to burn it entirely.
Totsuka sword can still be used. And so can Genjutsu be used, too.

Izanami is not one of those Jutsu we know a lot about, but I do believe that in less than month we will see at least part of its effect.

So, we just have to wait and see. I believe it will be enough to take care of someone like Suigetsu.

Gaia

04-05-2012, 02:33 PM

Comparing stats is not bad, in situations when both fighters have little to no chance of hurting their opponent with direct attack!!! :D

Amaterasu will burn as long as the thing set on Amaterasu is not burned. That would include lake, probably. Though it would take days, weeks, months maybe to burn it entirely.
Totsuka sword can still be used. And so can Genjutsu be used, too.

Izanami is not one of those Jutsu we know a lot about, but I do believe that in less than month we will see at least part of its effect.

So, we just have to wait and see. I believe it will be enough to take care of someone like Suigetsu.
This isn't a text-based RPG in which the person with the better stats win an automatic battle, if the person who does have the better stats has no way to hurt the other then it's futile to use that in the debate.

Totsuka sword has to pierce its target, if there is nothing to pierce it cannot do anything. I've already talked about this, but genjutsu is useless because Suigetsu has full knowledge. And besides--assume genjutsu actually works. Then what? Itachi still has no way to hurt Suigetsu.

I agree we should learn about Izanami eventually but as of now it has little relevance, if the debates in this thread are still going on when it's revealed and it's significant, I'll restrict it.

Gamaran

04-05-2012, 03:37 PM

Yeah but I never said that Suigetsu would have to break through Susanoo.
I never said you did.
Susanoo doesnt stick to Itachi's body, it is more like a separate entity that forms around him - as demonstrated by Danzo seeing the hole in Sasuke's Susanoo, Sasuke passing through Susanoo in chapter 393 when Itachi approaches him, and Gaara pulling Madara out of his Susanoo.
I know.
Not only that, but it's not like Susanoo defends Itachi from below. Suigetsu can just go under the water, and the unsuspecting Itachi, who will be trying to keep up Susanoo while having no clue where he went, will be vulnerable.
And while Suigetsu does all of this, Itachi just stands there, amirite?

Edit: Granted, I'm not stating that Itachi wins this match. He obviously loses due to Suigetsu having the locational advantage, as well as the elemental advantage. Itachi's only chance would have to either use Susano'o (which won't help) or use his Tsukuyomi. And since Amaterasu is nigh-pathetic, it ain't doing crap to Suigetsu.

Added to the fact that Suigetsu's durabilityis nothing to sneeze at either. He survived a TBB from Hachibi (only due to him merging with the water in that situation as well), if you can recall that. Itachi has virtually nothing that can put him down, let alone harm him.

Kuromaki

04-05-2012, 05:59 PM

i never said you did.
so there is nothing to suggest that his water gun will work on itachi's susano'o.
and while suigetsu does all of this, itachi just stands there, amirite? the unsuspecting itachi, who will be trying to keep up susanoo while having no clue where he went, will be vulnerable.
Agree with the rest

Shisko Shi

04-05-2012, 06:14 PM

Water Gun. Regardless-This goes both ways. Nothing Itachi can do can hurt Suigetsu.

Debatuble, What about the new eye tech that he is going to use with sasuke

321zigzag3

04-05-2012, 06:37 PM

Assuming Suigetsu utilizes his full knowledge quite effectively, his greatest danger is still genjutsu still the Finger pointing.

Other than genjutsu + Tsukiyomi the only thing that might harm Suigetsu is Amaterasu but thats another debate all together.

Frost ninja

04-05-2012, 07:10 PM

How did this survive 3 pages...?

Suigetsu goes puddle mode, Itachi stabs the puddle with the tosaka sword.
...right?

321zigzag3

04-05-2012, 07:32 PM

Totsuka is a sealing sword so assuming that Suigetsu's chakra water form gets "hit" it could seal him but we don't know.

Maybe. I won't be surprised if that is the case.

Kuromaki

04-05-2012, 10:59 PM

I'm sure Itachi would have fun stabbing blindly into a lake.

Roronoa Zoro

04-06-2012, 04:22 AM

U guys must not realize just how smart Itachi lol. Do u guys really think he can beat Itachi xD? Suigetsu can't even beat Kisame, Itachi and Kisame are in par and u guys are actin like hes just gonna stand there and stare at Suigetsu the whole time. Suigestu will not pierce through Susano and if he gets caught in a Amaterasu hes done and hes curtainly not faster then Itachi. Also if Suigetsu doesn't have someone else 2 break him out of a genjutsu then im sorry but he loses. Itachi figured out Nagato in a matter of seconds so he'll figure out Suigetsu, believe that.

Uchiha Sora

04-06-2012, 06:25 AM

^in this situation he has a pretty good chance since he has knowledge and they're on a lake

Suigetsu goes puddle mode, Itachi stabs the puddle with the tosaka sword.
...right? Thats what I said. Water or not, its suigetsu with a mass of suigetsu's chakra

Gaia

04-06-2012, 07:15 AM

^in this situation he has a pretty good chance since he has knowledge and they're on a lake

Thats what I said. Water or not, its suigetsu with a mass of suigetsu's chakra
If this were the case, if Itachi stabbed clones then the original would be sealed. It's not like this was an option when Kabuto spread himself out in his water form, Itachi had no idea where he was. Itachi cannot seal him by stabbing at a lake.

He's intangible when it comes to his water form, Itachi will be simply stabbing through him. Do you think Tobi would be sealed if he went intangible and the Totsuka went through him?

321zigzag3

04-06-2012, 07:22 AM

Tobi's intangibility and Suigetsu's intangibility aren't the same thing.

Not to mention some people would like to argue the whole spiritual sword sealing aspect.

Gaia

04-06-2012, 07:23 AM

Tobi's intangibility and Suigetsu's intangibility aren't the same thing.

Not to mention some people would like to argue the whole spiritual sword sealing aspect.
They aren't the same thing, but fairly similar especially in this case. If a giant sword is stabbing through them, it's going to go straight through water and do practically nothing.

A better example than clones would have been Muu's splitting ability, I'm pretty sure this is common sense though.

321zigzag3

04-06-2012, 07:26 AM

Gaia

04-06-2012, 07:31 AM

The point is that because Suigetsu's water chakra form and the fact Totsuka sword is spiritual and its a sealing sword to negate it.

I am not the one arguing that though but don't be surprised if people do.

Also Suigetsu isn't required to be looking at the finger to be caught in genjutsu.

Just throwing things out there.
I understand it's a chakra form, it's still water. He's practically omnipresent in his water form within the water. You saw what happened with Kabuto who has the exact same ability; the proof is right there. I've already seen people arguing for it though so, you're right that I'm not surprised.

If Itachi had any or many effective genjutsu that didn't require eyesight, he would have used it against Kabuto who blocked off his. He was fairly confident that Itachi couldn't use genjutsu on him now, regardless Suigetsu has full knowledge so he should be good.

Assuming genjutsu works...what can Itachi do? Suigetsu is still made of water, and I'm sure Suigetsu isn't amateur at breaking genjutsu regardless.

321zigzag3

04-06-2012, 07:36 AM

I understand it's a chakra form, it's still water. He's practically omnipresent in his water form within the water. You saw what happened with Kabuto who has the exact same ability; the proof is right there. I've already seen people arguing for it though so, you're right that I'm not surprised.

Totsuka is a spiritual sealing sword. So thats why. Its different. Or so it supposed to be.

Itachi never attempted to use Totsuka on Kabuto anyway so you cannot use that scenario.

Plus Kabuto's liquidification is more manually based from what I have seen.

If Itachi had any or many effective genjutsu that didn't require eyesight, he would have used it against Kabuto who blocked off his. He was fairly confident that Itachi couldn't use genjutsu on him now, regardless Suigetsu has full knowledge so he should be good.

The Finger doesn't require Kabuto to look at it but its likely weaker than sharingan genjutsu. Plus Kabuto being a skilled medic with quite great chakra control and able to master Sage Mode, its likely Itachi is seeing it won't be as effective.

Assuming genjutsu works...what can Itachi do? Suigetsu is still made of water, and I'm sure Suigetsu isn't amateur at breaking genjutsu regardless.

If Itachi does, and if he does catch him. He could always trick him that so he could Tsukiyomi to subdue him.

Godaime Kazekage

04-06-2012, 10:22 AM

I have to give this one to Itachi. I know Suigetsu has the locational advantage, but Itachi has super powered Genjutsu and the Totsuka sword which are pretty much insta-KOs as well as a very high intellect. Suigetsu has not demonstrated any resistance to Genjutsu so saying he could break out of one of Itachi's genjutsus is pretty ridiculous. As far as the water body goes, I'm pretty sure the Totsuka sword would still be effective if it hit a part of his chakra manipulated water body, because it seals the soul/chakra.

Frost ninja

04-06-2012, 12:58 PM

Supposing the sharingan still does the "copy your ninjutsu" thing like it has for Kakashi, couldn't Itachi then copy the liquification jutsu, go into the lake, and use his better chakra reserves to force Suigetsu out?

Also even if Suigetsu is just water, he still has chakra. Just like if he were to go into a puddle Neji would be able to mess with his chakra by poking the puddle, I don't have much doubt that Itachi can seal a water giant. Plus in 414 4-5, we can see Suigetsu doesn't go completely water mode when he makes giants or appears at all.

So to attack he is pretty much setting his own loss. That is, if Itachi doesn't simply walk out of the water and onto the island itself.

Godaime Kazekage

04-06-2012, 01:18 PM

Supposing the sharingan still does the "copy your ninjutsu" thing like it has for Kakashi, couldn't Itachi then copy the liquification jutsu, go into the lake, and use his better chakra reserves to force Suigetsu out?

That's a really intriguing idea-theoretically it is possible because Itachi can use Water Release techniques and the Hydrification technique isn't a Kekkei Genkei.

Gaia

04-06-2012, 01:26 PM

Totsuka is a spiritual sealing sword. So thats why. Its different. Or so it supposed to be.

Itachi never attempted to use Totsuka on Kabuto anyway so you cannot use that scenario.

Plus Kabuto's liquidification is more manually based from what I have seen.

The Finger doesn't require Kabuto to look at it but its likely weaker than sharingan genjutsu. Plus Kabuto being a skilled medic with quite great chakra control and able to master Sage Mode, its likely Itachi is seeing it won't be as effective.

If Itachi does, and if he does catch him. He could always trick him that so he could Tsukiyomi to subdue him.
It shouldn't matter if physical attacks don't affect Suigetsu. The sword cannot pierce him, so it's useless.

I'm saying that Itachi had no idea where Kabuto was. If he stabbed the ground with the Totsuka it would simply go through liquid-Kabuto, it would not suck up all the water, it would have no effect.
I have to give this one to Itachi. I know Suigetsu has the locational advantage, but Itachi has super powered Genjutsu and the Totsuka sword which are pretty much insta-KOs as well as a very high intellect. Suigetsu has not demonstrated any resistance to Genjutsu so saying he could break out of one of Itachi's genjutsus is pretty ridiculous. As far as the water body goes, I'm pretty sure the Totsuka sword would still be effective if it hit a part of his chakra manipulated water body, because it seals the soul/chakra.
Genjutsu is useless due to knowledge, and Totsuka is again useless because Suigetsu is in water form and not affected.
Supposing the sharingan still does the "copy your ninjutsu" thing like it has for Kakashi, couldn't Itachi then copy the liquification jutsu, go into the lake, and use his better chakra reserves to force Suigetsu out?

Also even if Suigetsu is just water, he still has chakra. Just like if he were to go into a puddle Neji would be able to mess with his chakra by poking the puddle, I don't have much doubt that Itachi can seal a water giant. Plus in 414 4-5, we can see Suigetsu doesn't go completely water mode when he makes giants or appears at all.

So to attack he is pretty much setting his own loss. That is, if Itachi doesn't simply walk out of the water and onto the island itself.
That jutsu has never been shown to work this way, this isn't your fanfiction. Two water form users can't "force the other out of the water", it isn't a mind control technique, it's Hydration Technique. What does Itachi do whilst inside the water assuming he's capable of something like that? And Suigetsu has better stamina than Itachi so I don't know what better chakra reserve you're talking about.

Neji wouldn't be able to hurt him, physical attacks are useless. I don't know where you got that ridiculous idea. Suigetsu doesn't go completely water mode? this is incorrect, each time he's been hit with a physical attack it's been completely transformed into water, such as when Karin kicked his face, it turned into water. If Itachi tries to stab him with Totsuka he simply liquifies and appears somewhere else in the water as already been shown. the piercing and sealing effect are not synonymous.

321zigzag3

04-06-2012, 01:34 PM

It shouldn't matter if physical attacks don't affect Suigetsu. The sword cannot pierce him, so it's useless.

Again, because the sword is spiritual, people are not unanimous on such thing.

I'm saying that Itachi had no idea where Kabuto was. If he stabbed the ground with the Totsuka it would simply go through liquid-Kabuto, it would not suck up all the water, it would have no effect.

We don't know how Totsuka would affect liquidification. Regardless Kabuto's is not automatic.

But we do know this. Itachi is not attempting to use Totsuka because Kabuto is needed alive.

But again we don't know if Totsuka can affect him if Kabuto is already liquid.

Genjutsu is useless due to knowledge, and Totsuka is again useless because Suigetsu is in water form and not affected.

Its not just mere knowledge that makes it useless. Its the utilization of it.

Anyway full knowledge won't protect from the Finger Pointing if Itachi does decide to use it anyway.

But genjutsu is all he has other than the Totsuka thing which is debatable.

MinatoXNaruto

04-06-2012, 01:39 PM

]It's not like this was an option when Kabuto spread himself out in his water form, Itachi had no idea where he was.
They need him alive to end the ET

Gaia

04-06-2012, 01:40 PM

Again, because the sword is spiritual, people are not unanimous on such thing.

We don't know how Totsuka would affect liquidification. Regardless Kabuto's is not automatic.

But we do know this. Itachi is not attempting to use Totsuka because Kabuto is needed alive.

But again we don't know if Totsuka can affect him if Kabuto is already liquid.

Its not just mere knowledge that makes it useless. Its the utilization of it.

Anyway full knowledge won't protect from the Finger Pointing if Itachi does decide to use it anyway.

But genjutsu is all he has other than the Totsuka thing which is debatable.
It shouldn't matter if it's spiritual, it still is a physical sword and to seal its target it has to pierce its target. This is a fact. Without the ability to pierce its target it has no way to seal it. Suigetsu can turn into liquid to avoid being pierced easily.

It's still required to look at his finger last I recall, and regardless he has Hydration technique for a reason. In that case Itachi still has no attacks capable of killing him, assuming he is caught(which might I remind you, he won't be).

vermillion rage 7

04-06-2012, 01:43 PM

suigetsu is weak, all itachi needs is tsukuyomi

MinatoXNaruto

04-06-2012, 01:43 PM

Genjutsu is useless due to knowledge, and Totsuka is again useless because Suigetsu is in water form and not affected.
What exactly would Suigetsu do with that knowledge? He's a bumbling idiot

321zigzag3

04-06-2012, 01:44 PM

It shouldn't matter if it's spiritual, it still is a physical sword and to seal its target it has to pierce its target. This is a fact. Without the ability to pierce its target it has no way to seal it. Suigetsu can turn into liquid to avoid being pierced easily.

Thats also the other side of the aspect. Not everyone accepts this but we will see though.

I am just throwing things out there.

It's still required to look at his finger last I recall, and regardless he has Hydration technique for a reason.

Itachi said he casts it with the finger, I don't recall looking at the finer being the requirement.

Its like casting genjutsu with handseals but ITachi bypasses it with the finger casting due to his sheer skill with it.

In that case Itachi still has no attacks capable of killing him, assuming he is caught(which might I remind you, he won't be).

WHich is why I mentioned on the chance he did, Tsukiyomi.

Kuromaki

04-06-2012, 01:45 PM

like I said before suigetsu can just disappear into the water and appear right under itachi, so screw all the arguments about Totsuka and Genjutsu when itachi won't get the chance to use either

Yellow Flash

04-06-2012, 01:53 PM

like I said before suigetsu can just disappear into the water and appear right under itachi, so screw all the arguments about Totsuka and Genjutsu when itachi won't get the chance to use either
This is so OOC and unlikely to even happen. Plus I don't think Susano'o would have such an abundantly obvious weakness as to simply attack from below.

Gaia

04-06-2012, 01:53 PM

suigetsu is weak, all itachi needs is tsukuyomi
Useless.
What exactly would Suigetsu do with that knowledge? He's a bumbling idiot
Not look into Itachi's eyes or fall into any of his genjutsu.

I would ask you to support Suigetsu's "idiocy" however that's expected to go without an answer.
Thats also the other side of the aspect. Not everyone accepts this but we will see though.

I am just throwing things out there.

Itachi said he casts it with the finger, I don't recall looking at the finer being the requirement.

Its like casting genjutsu with handseals but ITachi bypasses it with the finger casting due to his sheer skill with it.

WHich is why I mentioned on the chance he did, Tsukiyomi.
I'm confident like the rest of Itachi's genjutsu it required for the victim to look at his finger. During Naruto's flashback of realization if you will, he was specifically shown staring at his finger and recalling Itachi using said genjutsu.

I think if all he had to do was point his finger and hit anyone he wanted without them specifically seeing it themselves that defeats the purpose, especially given conditions.

Again though, Suigetsu has knowledge and also has Sasuke, a Mangekyou Sharingan user as his teammate. He should have enough knowledge and sense to deal with genjutsu--and be ready for this one if anything, he has full knowledge on how it works regardless of how we see it.

This is so OOC and unlikely to even happen. Plus I don't Susano'o has such an abundantly obvious weakness as to simply attack from below. How is it out of character? What is Suigetsu going to do with as little screentime as he has? Breathing is out of character. It's confirmed fact that below is its weakness, and Suigetsu has full knowledge. That answers that.

Kuromaki

04-06-2012, 01:58 PM

This is so OOC and unlikely to even happen. Plus I don't think Susano'o would have such an abundantly obvious weakness as to simply attack from below.
How is it OOC for Suigetsu to take advantage of his location especially against someone as powerful as Itachi. Even without giving him full knowledge he would still know who Itachi is and that Itachi can mess him up. So why not try to attack him right away. Even when he first met Sasuke he threatened him as soon as he broke his tank.

Every jutsu has a weakness, Itachi said so himself ;)
There is no shield on the bottom of it and if you need any more proof, Gaara revealed it when he attacked Madara.

MinatoXNaruto

04-06-2012, 02:01 PM

like I said before suigetsu can just disappear into the water and appear right under itachi, so screw all the arguments about Totsuka and Genjutsu when itachi won't get the chance to use either
Yea ok, like Itachi wouldn't see Suigetsu's chakra with his sharingan.

Not look into Itachi's eyes or fall into any of his genjutsu.

I would ask you to support Suigetsu's "idiocy" however that's expected to go without an answer.
He doesn't need to look into his eyes. He's already in one

There is no shield on the bottom of it and if you need any more proof, Gaara revealed it when he attacked Madara.
Madara doesn't have Yata Mirror.

Yellow Flash

04-06-2012, 02:06 PM

How is it OOC for Suigetsu to take advantage of his location especially against someone as powerful as Itachi. Even without giving him full knowledge he would still know who Itachi is and that Itachi can mess him up.
That's exactly why it's out of character. When has Suigetsu ever done that? Against Kirabi he was given a huge water source, but only used it as a last resort.
So why not try to attack him right away. Even when he first met Sasuke he threatened him as soon as he broke his tank.
Have a touch guy act all you want, Sasuke would defeat Suigetsu in a fight.
Every jutsu has a weakness, Itachi said so himself ;)
There is no shield on the bottom of it and if you need any more proof, Gaara revealed it when he attacked Madara.
True, but even so, you think someone who has mastered the technique isn't aware of this weakness? I'm sure he has countermeasures for when attacked there. Itachi isn't revered as a genius for nothing.

Kuromaki

04-06-2012, 02:15 PM

Yea ok, like Itachi wouldn't see Suigetsu's chakra with his sharingan.

Madara doesn't have Yata Mirror.
Suigetsu's chakra would likely be scattered in the water so good luck with that. And even if he did see it, what is he going to do?

When has the yata mirror appeared under itachi? It hasn't. Susanoo has its weaknesses too, it is not a perfect jutsu and Itachi admitted this himself.
That's exactly why it's out of character. When has Suigetsu ever done that? Against Kirabi he was given a huge water source, but only used it as a last resort.

Have a touch guy act all you want, Sasuke would defeat Suigetsu in a fight.

True, but even so, you think someone who has mastered the technique isn't aware of this weakness? I'm sure he has countermeasures for when attacked there. Itachi isn't revered as a genius for nothing.
It wasn't a last resort because they weren't fighting in the water to begin with, it's not until later that they reached the water that Suigetsu decided to use the lake.

This isn't a matter of whether he can beat Sasuke in a fight. I was providing proof on Suigetsu's eagerness to start a fight.

Countermeasures like what?

MinatoXNaruto

04-06-2012, 02:18 PM

Suigetsu's chakra would likely be scattered in the water so good luck with that. And even if he did see it, what is he going to do?

When has the yata mirror appeared under itachi? It hasn't. Susanoo has its weaknesses too, it is not a perfect jutsu and Itachi admitted this himself.

Itachi's Susanoo weakness would most likely be chakra drainage, not a freakin opening below him

321zigzag3

04-06-2012, 02:21 PM

like I said before suigetsu can just disappear into the water and appear right under itachi, so screw all the arguments about Totsuka and Genjutsu when itachi won't get the chance to use either

This only works, if Itachi is standing on the Water.

I'm confident like the rest of Itachi's genjutsu it required for the victim to look at his finger. During Naruto's flashback of realization if you will, he was specifically shown staring at his finger and recalling Itachi using said genjutsu.

You sure that is not anime only? Plus there is no indication or any other than just I must look at the finger.

All it was just casting through the finger.

I think if all he had to do was point his finger and hit anyone he wanted without them specifically seeing it themselves that defeats the purpose, especially given conditions.

Sharingan part makes sense since its the hypnotic eye but the finger?

What given conditions? Itachi only used it against Naruto back then.
He had no reason to use it to other scenarios.

Again though, Suigetsu has knowledge and also has Sasuke, a Mangekyou Sharingan user as his teammate. He should have enough knowledge and sense to deal with genjutsu--and be ready for this one if anything, he has full knowledge on how it works regardless of how we see it.

Perhaps he does although Suigetsu's genjutsu breaking feats are lacking on panel.

However on the chance he is caught with Tsukiyomi then ITachi arguably wins but getting to that part is another story.

Although considering how intelligent ITachi is or how Kishimoto wants to portray him as such, who knows he could always trick Suigetsu.

Yellow Flash

04-06-2012, 02:21 PM

It wasn't a last resort because they weren't fighting in the water to begin with, it's not until later that they reached the water that Suigetsu decided to use the lake.
It was most definitely a last resort. He used it so Taka could escape.
This isn't a matter of whether he can beat Sasuke in a fight. I was providing proof on Suigetsu's eagerness to start a fight.
And what does this prove? Naruto has the same characteristic, so what's your point?
Countermeasures like what?
Like anything to protect himself...?

And I'm not a debater anymore, so I won't reply to the next post. It's nothing personal, I just resent debating now.

Godaime Kazekage

04-06-2012, 03:35 PM

MinatoXNaruto

04-06-2012, 03:41 PM

Godaime Kazekage

04-06-2012, 03:48 PM

When did Kurenai break out of Itachi's genjutsu?? I'm a little rusty on that battle since I haven't seen it in like 3 years

It was during Kurenai's onlyb~( battle, when she and Asuma were taking on Itachi and Kisame. Kurenai used her Tree Binding Death justu on Itachi and then he reflected it back on her. She then broke out of it by biting her lip and dodging away from Itachi's kunai just in time. You could say, technically, that Kurenai just broke out her own genjutsu making the feat less impressive.

At any rate I would say it's impossible to break out of Itachi's genjutsu unless you are a skilled sharingan or genjutsu user or have a Bijuu/teammate to break you out. Suigetsu doesn't have any of these.

Frost ninja

04-06-2012, 04:56 PM

Again, what stops itachi from simply going into dry land?

Uchiha Sora

04-06-2012, 05:23 PM

^I thought about that too, but I thought the intent of the OP was to have the fight on the lake

Frost ninja

04-06-2012, 07:59 PM

No restrictions, and they are where kisame and guy fought so in the water is where they start however they aren't far enough away from the shore as to where they couldn't get out of the water.

Gaia

04-06-2012, 08:16 PM

Just because Suigetsu has knowledge that Itachi uses Genjutsu doesn't mean that he can avoid it or break out of it. Look at Naruto for instance, he's been put in a Genjutsu by Itachi almost every time he meets him even though he knows he has Genjutsu and not to look into his eyes. And as I said before, according to what has been shown in the manga, there is no way Suigetsu could break out of one of Itachi's genjutsus. The only ones who have done this are Kurenai and Sasuke, a Genjutsu specialist and a fellow Sharingan user.
Suigetsu has full knowledge. Naruto didn't look into Itachi's eyes, he fell to his genjutsu because of his finger which he had no knowledge of. Suigetsu also isn't as character-stupid as Naruto and wouldn't do something like that, obviously, especially in-battle situation.
No restrictions, and they are where kisame and guy fought so in the water is where they start however they aren't far enough away from the shore as to where they couldn't get out of the water.
What will going on land do for Itachi? Suigetsu isn't restricted to the water either, he's allowed to move. More so it's not like Itachi has anything to hurt Suigetsu, so this will only prolong the inevitable.

Frost ninja

04-06-2012, 08:48 PM

Well, Itachi moves into the forest, Suigetsu can't follow necessarily.

Also he has plenty to hurt suigetsu. He couldn't tank a TBB without being incapped, so I don't see how he is somehow immune to damage. After all, a TBB hurts and is physical, so I don't see why Tosaka wouldn't be able to seal him off.

Whats he going to do? Water giant onto land so the half of his body he doesn't transform can get stabbed? Or stay in the ocean until he runs out of chakra and then becomes a floater?

Gaia

04-06-2012, 09:00 PM

Exactly. He tanked a TBB, therefore there's absolutely nothing Itachi can do to compare to that kind of power. It was a sheer energy attack, Totsuka relies of physical damage. TBB would naturally simply vaporize Suigetsu, unfortunately Itachi can't compare.

He won't run out of chakra, he's not the one who has to remain in Susano'o to prevent being killed off too fast, and he has better stamina than Itachi.

Frost ninja

04-06-2012, 09:01 PM

Uh... I wouldn't call it tanking if he barely survived. From my opinion, at least.
And no, Totsuka relies on poking them and then sealing them.

And him controlling an entire ocean will drain it a lot faster than susanoo.

Gaia

04-06-2012, 09:33 PM

You had just said he tanked it. It's proven fact because of the incident nothing less of a TBB which can easily destroy mountains will kill him.

Totsuka cannot poke him therefore it cannot seal him.

I disagree, Itachi has been heavily exhausted from using his Mangekyou Sharingan once, and the most heavily exhausting technique he's going to have to maintain the entire fight to prevent Suigetsu from one-shotting him with water gun. However this probably won't be an issue as Suigetsu, with full knowledge, can easily exploit Susano'o's weakness and attack from below.

MinatoXNaruto

04-06-2012, 09:39 PM

I disagree, Itachi has been heavily exhausted from using his Mangekyou Sharingan once, and the most heavily exhausting technique he's going to have to maintain the entire fight to prevent Suigetsu from one-shotting him with water gun. However this probably won't be an issue as Suigetsu, with full knowledge, can easily exploit Susano'o's weakness and attack from below.
Seems as if you still ignored my previous comments. Itachi doesn't need to constantly have Susanoo up. He can activate it in less than a second. All he has to do is wait for Suigetsu to use water gun, then block it with Susanoo. Water gun definitely does not have the speed of Kirin. Secondly, what's stopping Itachi from transforming into his crows and going on land?

Frost ninja

04-06-2012, 09:49 PM

You had just said he tanked it. It's proven fact because of the incident nothing less of a TBB which can easily destroy mountains will kill him.

Pardon, I use tank as my usual terms. He survived a TBB.
Well, yeah. Blunt force maybe not. Sealing is on a new level.

Totsuka cannot poke him therefore it cannot seal him.

He has to attack sometime.

I disagree, Itachi has been heavily exhausted from using his Mangekyou Sharingan once, and the most heavily exhausting technique he's going to have to maintain the entire fight to prevent Suigetsu from one-shotting him with water gun. However this probably won't be an issue as Suigetsu, with full knowledge, can easily exploit Susano'o's weakness and attack from below.

See MxN's comment below.

Godaime Kazekage

04-07-2012, 02:12 AM

[QUOTE=Gaia;5982280]Suigetsu has full knowledge. Naruto didn't look into Itachi's eyes, he fell to his genjutsu because of his finger which he had no knowledge of. Suigetsu also isn't as character-stupid as Naruto and wouldn't do something like that, obviously, especially in-battle situation.

I don't usually like to repeat myself, but what I'm trying to say and what you are apparently not understanding is that just because you know how a technique works, doesn't mean that you can stop it. He can do his best to avoid it, but that's probably not gonna happen, as it's pretty hard to fight blind. It's also certain that Itachi doesn't need eyecontact for some genjutsu and implied that Itachi can use genjutsu on someone that's not looking at him. (The finger pointing, the cloak jutsu, and Ao's comment that people being controlled over such a wide area could only be done by Itachi).

Also remember Itachi's and Naruto's meeting in the forest when he just opened his cloak and Naruto was in the Genjutsu already, after Naruto knew about the finger pointing and the tips on how to fight a sharingan user. Plus, Naruto isn't as dumb as people say-in everyday life certainly, but in battle he's one of the most inventive/smartest ninja in the series.

Sorry if I sound a little bit confrontational`o.o", I'm just trying to make the point that knowledge of a jutsu does not equal immunity to it.

Gaia

04-07-2012, 07:47 AM

Seems as if you still ignored my previous comments. Itachi doesn't need to constantly have Susanoo up. He can activate it in less than a second. All he has to do is wait for Suigetsu to use water gun, then block it with Susanoo. Water gun definitely does not have the speed of Kirin. Secondly, what's stopping Itachi from transforming into his crows and going on land?I didn't ignore it, it doesn't matter how Itachi enters Susano'o because he will simply be wasting his chakra. Suigetsu has more stamina than Itachi.

I don't usually like to repeat myself, but what I'm trying to say and what you are apparently not understanding is that just because you know how a technique works, doesn't mean that you can stop it. He can do his best to avoid it, but that's probably not gonna happen, as it's pretty hard to fight blind. It's also certain that Itachi doesn't need eyecontact for some genjutsu and implied that Itachi can use genjutsu on someone that's not looking at him. (The finger pointing, the cloak jutsu, and Ao's comment that people being controlled over such a wide area could only be done by Itachi).

Also remember Itachi's and Naruto's meeting in the forest when he just opened his cloak and Naruto was in the Genjutsu already, after Naruto knew about the finger pointing and the tips on how to fight a sharingan user. Plus, Naruto isn't as dumb as people say-in everyday life certainly, but in battle he's one of the most inventive/smartest ninja in the series.

Sorry if I sound a little bit confrontational`o.o", I'm just trying to make the point that knowledge of a jutsu does not equal immunity to it.
I'm aware. It is however easy to fight blind when the opponent can do literally nothing to hurt you. If Itachi could use non-eye contact genjutsu then he would have against Kabuto who had blocked his eyesight. Regardless it does not matter, for one Suigetsu is still in water form, so when he's put into a genjutsu Itachi still can't do anything to hurt him, and for two Suigetsu has full knowledge and will know of any genjutsu that doesn't require eyesight and be ready for.

I agree Naruto's one of the smartest. He wasn't in an in-battle situation, he was being clumsy Naruto. If he was fighting to kill and in a serious situation he wouldn't have looked into Itachi's eyes but he instinctively had done it when they were talking.

Again I'm aware what that means, I can easily see other characters still falling into genjutsu with knowledge. Suigetsu on the other hand won't do that.

Godaime Kazekage

04-07-2012, 11:18 AM

I'm aware. It is however easy to fight blind when the opponent can do literally nothing to hurt you. If Itachi could use non-eye contact genjutsu then he would have against Kabuto who had blocked his eyesight. Regardless it does not matter, for one Suigetsu is still in water form, so when he's put into a genjutsu Itachi still can't do anything to hurt him, and for two Suigetsu has full knowledge and will know of any genjutsu that doesn't require eyesight and be ready for.

I agree Naruto's one of the smartest. He wasn't in an in-battle situation, he was being clumsy Naruto. If he was fighting to kill and in a serious situation he wouldn't have looked into Itachi's eyes but he instinctively had done it when they were talking.

Again I'm aware what that means, I can easily see other characters still falling into genjutsu with knowledge. Suigetsu on the other hand won't do that.

I think you are making a few major assumptions here that work in Suigetsu's favor. You make fighting blind sound easy, the fact that Suigetsu can't be hurt in water form doesn't relate to him being able to locate and attack Itachi.
You say that when Suigetsu is put into a genjutsu Itachi won't be able to hurt him because he's in liquid form-what's to stop Itachi from making Suigetsu undo the jutsu when he's in a genjutsu?
Lastly, you assume that other characters would fall into one of Itachi's genjutsus whereas Suigetsu would not-what evidence from the manga are you basing this statement off?

I know that Suigetsu is a strong shinobi, especially with a water source. But according to your version of him he is a super perceptive genius who can't be touched or defeated when he has a large water source nearby.

TRcommander

04-07-2012, 11:49 AM

I agree with Frost Ninja......does anybody here seriously think that one of the smartest shinobi in the entire series is really just going to stay on the water during this fight? The instant Itachi realizes he's at a disadvantage, he's going to move onto the land. If Suigetsu follows, he loses. If Suigetsu stays in hydrofication mode, he'll waste all of his chakra and then he loses.

Gaia

04-07-2012, 06:59 PM

I think you are making a few major assumptions here that work in Suigetsu's favor. You make fighting blind sound easy, the fact that Suigetsu can't be hurt in water form doesn't relate to him being able to locate and attack Itachi.
You say that when Suigetsu is put into a genjutsu Itachi won't be able to hurt him because he's in liquid form-what's to stop Itachi from making Suigetsu undo the jutsu when he's in a genjutsu? He's not fighting blind, he has to avoid his eyes and his finger. When the opponent can't even hurt you either way, it's fairly easy to do so. Genjutsu isn't mind control, it's genjutsu. If he can "paralyze" Suigetsu that's fine, but he can't use a mind control technique to get him to undo the jutsu. If he did, Suigetsu won't be getting caught in genjutsu in the first place.
Lastly, you assume that other characters would fall into one of Itachi's genjutsus whereas Suigetsu would not-what evidence from the manga are you basing this statement off?When did I say this? I don't see any character falling into his genjutsu in a true in battle situation given full knowledge unless they truly were idiots. Naruto never did this, he was caught because of lack of knowledge, and everyone else says the same for. I might see someone like Naruto(however not anymore, more like Part 1 Naruto) charging in with full knowledge and get caught. But not many.

I know that Suigetsu is a strong shinobi, especially with a water source. But according to your version of him he is a super perceptive genius who can't be touched or defeated when he has a large water source nearby.No, he's not. He just has full knowledge and can't be hurt by physical attacks.

You're right partly though, admittedly. He can't be touched or defeated by Itachi in this case.

I agree with Frost Ninja......does anybody here seriously think that one of the smartest shinobi in the entire series is really just going to stay on the water during this fight? The instant Itachi realizes he's at a disadvantage, he's going to move onto the land. If Suigetsu follows, he loses. If Suigetsu stays in hydrofication mode, he'll waste all of his chakra and then he loses.
If Itachi stayed on water it would only mean his end seconds into the fight. I don't think anyone here actually believes Itachi is so stupid. If I had restricted him to staying on the water, the fight wouldn't last very long. It would be unfair for Itachi.

Also before anyone criticizes my restrictions, if I had given Sugietsu any other advantages it would be a stomp.

MinatoXNaruto

04-07-2012, 07:05 PM

I don't see any character falling into his genjutsu in a true in battle situation given full knowledge unless they truly were idiots. Naruto never did this, he was caught because of lack of knowledge, and everyone else says the same for. I might see someone like Naruto(however not anymore, more like Part 1 Naruto) charging in with full knowledge and get caught. But not many.

No, he's not. He just has full knowledge and can't be hurt by physical attacks.
Just because someone has full knowledge, doesn't mean they can stop it.

Gaia

04-07-2012, 07:14 PM

Just because someone has full knowledge, doesn't mean they can stop it.
You've said this...how many times now? You're right. Just because someone has knowledge, doesn't mean they can stop it. Except in this case, which all it requires is avoiding to do something extremely simple. If it were knowledge of Chibaku Tensei or similar, then no. You might not necessarily be able to stop it just because you know what you're up against. But against Itachi, you can perform simple actions to avoid things you have knowledge about. If avoiding looking into Pain's eyes to stop Chibaku Tensei then most characters would be unaffected.

Now please if you'd want, bring something new to the arguments, reiterating myself is becoming a bit of an inconvenience.

TRcommander

04-07-2012, 07:23 PM

If Itachi stayed on water it would only mean his end seconds into the fight. I don't think anyone here actually believes Itachi is so stupid. If I had restricted him to staying on the water, the fight wouldn't last very long. It would be unfair for Itachi.

Sooooo........Itachi wins then? Cause he's clearly not staying on the water, and that's the only possible little chance Suigetsu has of winning.

Gaia

04-07-2012, 07:33 PM

Sooooo........Itachi wins then? Cause he's clearly not staying on the water, and that's the only possible little chance Suigetsu has of winning.
It seems like all the Itachi supporters think Suigetsu is not allowed to move. Not the only chance Suigetsu has of winning, Itachi leaving the water is Itachi's only chance to survive the first few seconds of the fight. I thought that was a given.

Why would leaving the water give Itachi a win? Assuming and going along with that Suigetsu is incapable of moving of course. He still can't hurt Suigetsu.

TRcommander

04-07-2012, 08:16 PM

It seems like all the Itachi supporters think Suigetsu is not allowed to move. Not the only chance Suigetsu has of winning, Itachi leaving the water is Itachi's only chance to survive the first few seconds of the fight. I thought that was a given.

Why would leaving the water give Itachi a win? Assuming and going along with that Suigetsu is incapable of moving of course. He still can't hurt Suigetsu.

Like I said before, if Suigetsu leaves the water too, he's obviously screwed. And if Suigetsu doesn't leave the water too, then what? He just stays in hydrofication mode until he runs out of chakra? Then Itachi wins. Does he try to attack Itachi who's out of the water? Then Itachi counters with susanoo/totsuka sword/yata mirror and wins. As soon as Itachi steps foot on dry land, there's really nothing Suigetsu can do to win.

Gaia

04-07-2012, 09:00 PM

Like I said before, if Suigetsu leaves the water too, he's obviously screwed. And if Suigetsu doesn't leave the water too, then what? He just stays in hydrofication mode until he runs out of chakra? Then Itachi wins. Does he try to attack Itachi who's out of the water? Then Itachi counters with susanoo/totsuka sword/yata mirror and wins. As soon as Itachi steps foot on dry land, there's really nothing Suigetsu can do to win.
"It's so obvious he's screwed. Obviously. Anyone with a brain can tell he's obviously screwed. I'm not going to tell why he's screwed but it's oh-so obvious."

How will Suigetsu run out of chakra before Itachi? He has more chakra than Itachi and how will having a world of water at his disposal wear him down? Itachi isn't the one who can sit back and relax, because if he doesn't remain in Susano'o then he's going to be killed by a water gun or drowned. Suigetsu on the other hand can do whatever the hell he wants because Itachi has nothing to hurt him with.

TRcommander

04-07-2012, 09:25 PM

"It's so obvious he's screwed. Obviously. Anyone with a brain can tell he's obviously screwed. I'm not going to tell why he's screwed but it's oh-so obvious."

If you want to try and argue Suigetsu winning a land fight with Itachi then go for it.

How will Suigetsu run out of chakra before Itachi? He has more chakra than Itachi and how will having a world of water at his disposal wear him down?Proof that he has more chakra? Itachi was able to use Susanoo despite being half dead and already having used other chakra draining techniques. What has Suigetsu done?

Itachi isn't the one who can sit back and relax, because if he doesn't remain in Susano'o then he's going to be killed by a water gun or drowned.When did Suigetsu use water gun? Do you have a scan of that? It's not like Itachi couldn't just dodge anyways.

Suigetsu on the other hand can do whatever the hell he wants because Itachi has nothing to hurt him with.I think you're severely overestimating Suigetsu's hydrification. He can't just disperse himfelf limitlessly throughout the ocean or something. Even when he uses it, he still keeps a centralized location that is capable of being injured as shown by the fact that he was.

IMO, if the totsuka sword hits that part of him, he'd be sealed.

Kuromaki

04-07-2012, 09:30 PM

can't show scans bro

just tell him what chapter& page it is

Frost ninja

04-07-2012, 09:33 PM

Suigetsu doesn't really have the attack speed to actually hit Itachi without him reacting... So even if he stays on the water theres not much of anything suigetsu can do that won't get him genjutsu'd.

TRcommander

04-07-2012, 09:35 PM

can't show scans bro

just tell him what chapter& page it is

Oh, sorry. Didn't realize that was a problem. edit: Ah, I only read the battleground rules. The forum rules ninja'd me.

ch. 414 pg. 5.....or really (afaik) anytime he uses the technique he still has a centralized location.

Frost ninja

04-07-2012, 09:56 PM

Thats what I said, even in water giant mode he never is fully puddle'd. He has to form to attack, and once he does its either genjutsu or tosaka stab into the GG.

MinatoXNaruto

04-07-2012, 10:26 PM

Exactly. It's almost like Tobi. If he wants to attack, he has solidify in order to do it. Itachi would recognize this in an instant and easily incapacitate Suigetsu rendering him useless

Gaia

04-07-2012, 11:00 PM

If you want to try and argue Suigetsu winning a land fight with Itachi then go for it. When he has a lake at his disposal and nothing Itachi can do can hurt Suigetsu? Any time.

Proof that he has more chakra? Itachi was able to use Susanoo despite being half dead and already having used other chakra draining techniques. What has Suigetsu done?

When did Suigetsu use water gun? Do you have a scan of that? It's not like Itachi couldn't just dodge anyways.Susano'o wore him down extremely quickly to the point of his death. He can't kill Suigetsu, so he wastes his chakra.

Yes, when he met Sasuke. Itachi dodge a water gun? Baseless, but I should restrict water gun anyway because with it, it makes it a bigger stomp.
I think you're severely overestimating Suigetsu's hydrification. He can't just disperse himfelf limitlessly throughout the ocean or something. Even when he uses it, he still keeps a centralized location that is capable of being injured as shown by the fact that he was.
Injured by a TBB, which Itachi can only dream of replicating the power of. Injured maybe, not by any physical attacks like Totsuka or punches or kicks.
IMO, if the totsuka sword hits that part of him, he'd be sealed.Instead, the part that's hit liquifies and he easily moves somewhere else to avoid.

Suigetsu doesn't really have the attack speed to actually hit Itachi without him reacting... So even if he stays on the water theres not much of anything suigetsu can do that won't get him genjutsu'd.
Other than avoid falling into his genjutsu. I absolutely love how there's "not much of anything Suigetsu can do" yet the Itachi supporters are oblivious that Itachi is incapable of killing Suigetsu in any form on the reverse side.
Thats what I said, even in water giant mode he never is fully puddle'd. He has to form to attack, and once he does its either genjutsu or tosaka stab into the GG.
Being "formed" does not mean he's "solid" and susceptible to physical damage. Never once has he been like this. He's immune to physical attacks and beats Itachi. Deal with it.
Exactly. It's almost like Tobi. If he wants to attack, he has solidify in order to do it. Itachi would recognize this in an instant and easily incapacitate Suigetsu rendering him useless
He does not solidify. His water form is immune to physical damage.

Frost ninja

04-07-2012, 11:31 PM

Other than avoid falling into his genjutsu. I absolutely love how there's "not much of anything Suigetsu can do" yet the Itachi supporters are oblivious that Itachi is incapable of killing Suigetsu in any form on the reverse side.

Um... Tosaka seals him, Itachi Genjutsus, or he simply waits until Suigetsu kills himself in chakra loss. I haven't seen any feats to suggest Suigetsu is at all superior in chakra.

Being "formed" does not mean he's "solid" and susceptible to physical damage. Never once has he been like this. He's immune to physical attacks and beats Itachi. Deal with it.

Deal with it? Because TBB seemed to be pretty physical. And it seemed to incap him efficently. And Spirit sword doesn't need to kill him, it just needs to touch him. Meaning, yes. If Suigetsu is existant in the water, he can get hit with it and have his chakra sealed away.

I don't get where you have this illusion that Suigetsu is immune to physical damage when he got tossed by a TBB. And again by a lightning sword.

He does not solidify. His water form is immune to physical damage.

Right... TBB disproves along with the thunder sword.

He gets a Tosaka to the face or a genjutsu. Either way, theres nothing Sui can do to kill Itachi.

Hell, Itachi doesn't even need Susanoo I'm so confident.
Genjutsu is all thats necessary. In every way, Suigetsu has no possible way to win.

Also immune is an absolute and you'd do good to stay away. A planet busting physical will kill liquified suigetsu.

UchihaXSasuke

04-08-2012, 04:51 AM

1.Amaterasu can burn him,eighter if in liquid form or normal form
2.Tsukuyomi

megabbaut

04-08-2012, 06:59 AM

1. He is water so it doesn't affect him
2. Does not work because he has knowledge

Godaime Kazekage

04-08-2012, 08:59 AM

1. He is water so it doesn't affect him
2. Does not work because he has knowledge

1. Amaterasu burns away whatever the user sets his sight on (Even water-this is stated multiple times and it is proved that water can't put out Amaterasu in the Taka vs. Killer Bee fight).
2. This has been stated so many times and is starting to get on everyone's nerves-to restate for the billionth time, just because you have knowledge on a tech doesn't mean you can stop it. Look through previous posts in this thread for explanations as to why.

Gaia

04-08-2012, 10:13 AM

Right... TBB disproves along with the thunder sword.

He gets a Tosaka to the face or a genjutsu. Either way, theres nothing Sui can do to kill Itachi.

Hell, Itachi doesn't even need Susanoo I'm so confident.
Genjutsu is all thats necessary. In every way, Suigetsu has no possible way to win.

Also immune is an absolute and you'd do good to stay away. A planet busting physical will kill liquified suigetsu.
We all know Suigetsu is only weak to Raiton. Which Itachi doesn't have. TBB is an energy based attack which Itachi also doesn't have.

Doesn't need Susano'o? Itachi loses a few seconds into the match without it, he's going to need it to even last. Genjutsu is useless because Suigetsu has knowledge.

A planet busting punch would do nothing to Suigetsu, he is immune to physical damage. If someone used a planet busting ninjutsu or an energy blast that could destroy planets it'd be a bit different.

Fortunately for Suigetsu, Itachi has absolutely no Raitons or energy based attacks on the level of TBB, or anything capable of killing him at all.
1. Amaterasu burns away whatever the user sets his sight on (Even water-this is stated multiple times and it is proved that water can't put out Amaterasu in the Taka vs. Killer Bee fight).
2. This has been stated so many times and is starting to get on everyone's nerves-to restate for the billionth time, just because you have knowledge on a tech doesn't mean you can stop it. Look through previous posts in this thread for explanations as to why.
Yes, you've all stated this for the billionth time(because it's the only thing you can say that doesn't make Suigetsu stomp) and I've refuted it for the billionth time. Sometimes having knowledge against something may mean you can't stop it. But here it's simple. Don't look in his eyes. Don't look at his fingers. Itachi can do nothing to hurt Suigetsu.

TRcommander

04-08-2012, 10:32 AM

Susano'o wore him down extremely quickly to the point of his death. He can't kill Suigetsu, so he wastes his chakra.

You got that backwards......susanoo didn't wear him down to death, he was already almost dead and was still able to use it.

Yes, when he met Sasuke. Itachi dodge a water gun? Baseless, but I should restrict water gun anyway because with it, it makes it a bigger stomp.

So saying that one of the fastest characters in the series who also has the sharigan would be able to dodge a linear attack is baseless? No, what's baseless is you saying that Suigetsu could even use the water gun without telling me when he's actually done so. So yes, water gun should be restricted but not because it somehow stomps Itachi......it's restricted unless you can show me Suigetsu actually using it.

Injured by a TBB, which Itachi can only dream of replicating the power of. Injured maybe, not by any physical attacks like Totsuka or punches or kicks.
Instead, the part that's hit liquifies and he easily moves somewhere else to avoid.

Since when is using the totsuka sword to seal people considered a physical attack?

Other than avoid falling into his genjutsu. I absolutely love how there's "not much of anything Suigetsu can do" yet the Itachi supporters are oblivious that Itachi is incapable of killing Suigetsu in any form on the reverse side.

Except he is capable of hurting Suigetsu using the totsuka sword if nothing else.

We all know Suigetsu is only weak to Raiton. Which Itachi doesn't have. TBB is an energy based attack which Itachi also doesn't have.

Since when is the totsuka sword not more than just a physical attack?

Doesn't need Susano'o? Itachi loses a few seconds into the match without it, he's going to need it to even last. Genjutsu is useless because Suigetsu has knowledge.

How does knowledge = immunity?

A planet busting punch would do nothing to Suigetsu, he is immune to physical damage. If someone used a planet busting ninjutsu or an energy blast that could destroy planets it'd be a bit different.

I don't think it works like that......pretty sure a planet busting punch would have more than enough energy to destroy Suigetsu no matter what form he's in.

Fortunately for Suigetsu, Itachi has absolutely no Raitons or energy based attacks on the level of TBB, or anything capable of killing him at all.

Totsuka sword and genjutsu.

Yes, you've all stated this for the billionth time(because it's the only thing you can say that doesn't make Suigetsu stomp) and I've refuted it for the billionth time. Sometimes having knowledge against something may mean you can't stop it. But here it's simple. Don't look in his eyes. Don't look at his fingers. Itachi can do nothing to hurt Suigetsu.

How does Suigetsu fight Itachi if he can't look at him?

Godaime Kazekage

04-08-2012, 10:48 AM

Yes, you've all stated this for the billionth time(because it's the only thing you can say that doesn't make Suigetsu stomp) and I've refuted it for the billionth time. Sometimes having knowledge against something may mean you can't stop it. But here it's simple. Don't look in his eyes. Don't look at his fingers. Itachi can do nothing to hurt Suigetsu.

It looks like we are at an impasse. I don't think there's anything we can do to convince you that Itachi can hurt Suigetsu/win the battle, but I will try one more time, nonetheless`;):
Itachi's Totsuka sword as believed by the Itachi supporters in this thread is a spiritual sword and should be able to "pierce" Suigetsu and bind him even if he's in his water form because it targets the opponents soul/chakra.

Also you've never proven that Suigetsu will be able to hit/hurt Itachi. Itachi has multiple feats showing his fast reaction time and ability to evade attacks. Suigetsu on the other hand has to fight Itachi while not looking at his eyes or hands (something Kurenai and Asuma, two jonin, weren't capable of doing-only Guy could and that's because he had years of practice fighting against Kakashi).

A final method for Itachi to win, besides Totsuka and simply outlasting the Hydrification Technique is to use Amaterasu when Suigetsu tries to attack him. Amaterasu burns away everything the user sees-including water (aka Suigetsu while in liquid form).

I'm not saying this is an easy/certain victory for Itachi, just that it's more likely Itachi would win due to his skillset, intelligence, and battle experience.

Frost ninja

04-08-2012, 11:06 AM

A planet busting punch would do nothing to Suigetsu, he is immune to physical damage. If someone used a planet busting ninjutsu or an energy blast that could destroy planets it'd be a bit different.

This is where you begin to lose credibility. No, a planet busting attack would be a kill on suigetsu in any form by any means. Just because he is a puddle doesn't make him immune to Physical damage, and I still don't see what you have backing this claim.

Also tosuka is, by definition, an etherial sword. Its not a physical blade, in fact its made up of the chakra coming from susanoo itself. Chakra is energy, as you've stated in the case of KB, which Suigetsu is not immune to. So him being immune to physical damage, baseless as the claim is, is irrelevant since the sword itself isn't based around its own physicality.

Suigetsu isn't immune to chakra + Tosuka is made of chakra = Suigetsu isn't immune to totsuka.

For the rest of it, no water gun feats means its an unquanfitiable issue. Without proof we can't say for sure how fast it is. Second, Suigetsu hasn't got the speed to hit Itachi without him reacting with a genjutsu, ammy, or susanoo sword to the gullet.

Itachi has all he needs in genjutsu, because Suigetsu doesn't have anything to even come close to hitting Itachi with that won't simply end in his own death.

Godaime Kazekage

04-08-2012, 11:21 AM

This is where you begin to lose credibility. No, a planet busting attack would be a kill on suigetsu in any form by any means. Just because he is a puddle doesn't make him immune to Physical damage, and I still don't see what you have backing this claim.

I actually agree with Gaia here-when Suigetsu is attacked physically (punched, kicked, sliced, whatever) he just reforms where he was attacked (while in Hydrification mode of course). The only physical attack I see working on him is something like Asakujaku in which he would be attacked so quickly in so many places he wouldn't be able to reform.

In any case Itachi doesn't need physical attacks to beat him and his most effective techniques are all ninjutsu or genjutsu.

Gaia

04-08-2012, 11:22 AM

You got that backwards......susanoo didn't wear him down to death, he was already almost dead and was still able to use it.

So saying that one of the fastest characters in the series who also has the sharigan would be able to dodge a linear attack is baseless? No, what's baseless is you saying that Suigetsu could even use the water gun without telling me when he's actually done so. So yes, water gun should be restricted but not because it somehow stomps Itachi......it's restricted unless you can show me Suigetsu actually using it. No, but saying Itachi is one of the fastest characters in the manga is quite baseless.

Since when is using the totsuka sword to seal people considered a physical attack?Since forever, when it is required to actually pierce you which it cannot do to Suigetsu.

Except he is capable of hurting Suigetsu using the totsuka sword if nothing else.Except he isn't.

Since when is the totsuka sword not more than just a physical attack?It never was, because it has to pierce its opponent to seal them. If it can't pierce them, it has no way to be able to seal them.

How does knowledge = immunity?Because Suigetsu can easily avoid to look into Itachi's eyes to avoid all genjutsu.

I don't think it works like that......pretty sure a planet busting punch would have more than enough energy to destroy Suigetsu no matter what form he's in.It wouldn't do anything, this is common sense. It would go through him.

Totsuka sword and genjutsu.Useless because of knowledge and immune to physical damage.

How does Suigetsu fight Itachi if he can't look at him?
By just not looking at his eyes. Conversely I ask of you how does Itachi do anything to win when he can't hurt Suigetsu?
It looks like we are at an impasse. I don't think there's anything we can do to convince you that Itachi can hurt Suigetsu/win the battle, but I will try one more time, nonetheless`;):
Itachi's Totsuka sword as believed by the Itachi supporters in this thread is a spiritual sword and should be able to "pierce" Suigetsu and bind him even if he's in his water form because it targets the opponents soul/chakra.I've never seen people claim that Tobi could be sealed by it, because he can't, because he's intangible. Similarly, Suigetsu can simply liquify and reform, Itachi cannoy do anything to hurt him. Totsuka sword sealing is not synonymous with the piercing, and regardless he can't pierce Suigetsu.
Also you've never proven that Suigetsu will be able to hit/hurt Itachi. Itachi has multiple feats showing his fast reaction time and ability to evade attacks. Suigetsu on the other hand has to fight Itachi while not looking at his eyes or hands (something Kurenai and Asuma, two jonin, weren't capable of doing-only Guy could and that's because he had years of practice fighting against Kakashi).
Considering Itachi has far less stamina than Suigetsu, and Itachi can't hurt Suigetsu, I find drowning and keeping Itachi on the defensive and the use of water gun and whatever high level suiton Suigetsu may have heavily effective in dealing with Itachi. Kurenai and Asuma were not inable to do that, nobody you mentioned has full knowledge on Itachi.
A final method for Itachi to win, besides Totsuka and simply outlasting the Hydrification Technique is to use Amaterasu when Suigetsu tries to attack him. Amaterasu burns away everything the user sees-including water (aka Suigetsu while in liquid form).Itachi outlast Suigetsu? I believe it's the other way around. Itachi can't hurt Suigetsu at all, Suigetsu won't be wasting any chakra, he will be sitting and tanking any attack Itachi can dream of throwing. Itachi again has far less stamina than Suigetsu. Now on the other hand I could claim the same thing in that Suigetsu will wait until Itachi wastes all of his chakra trying to kill Suigetsu, since Suigetsu can't hurt him.

I'm not saying this is an easy/certain victory for Itachi, just that it's more likely Itachi would win due to his skillset, intelligence, and battle experience.
Again, if you are the smartest ninja, the most battle experience, and the most incredible skillset it doesn't mean jack if the opponent has the perfect body that can't be harmed by any of said attacks. And he has full knowledge on everything you're capable of.
This is where you begin to lose credibility. No, a planet busting attack would be a kill on suigetsu in any form by any means. Just because he is a puddle doesn't make him immune to Physical damage, and I still don't see what you have backing this claim.It would go through him. I really don't feel the need to waste my time to go back to find one of the most hundred times that Suigetsu was hit by a physical attack and merely liquified, if you think Suigetsu suddenly doesn't have that ability because I haven't posted any scans of it, you're trolling.

Also tosuka is, by definition, an etherial sword. Its not a physical blade, in fact its made up of the chakra coming from susanoo itself. Chakra is energy, as you've stated in the case of KB, which Suigetsu is not immune to. So him being immune to physical damage, baseless as the claim is, is irrelevant since the sword itself isn't based around its own physicality.

Suigetsu isn't immune to chakra + Tosuka is made of chakra = Suigetsu isn't immune to totsuka.Good thing each time it was used it physically pierced through the victim in order to seal them. Which it cannot do to Suigetsu because he liquifies. If you can find me a panel in which Totsuka sealed someone without piercing them first, then please, I'll be waiting. Until then, your argument about Totsuka being able to seal something it can't pierce has nothing to stand on.

For the rest of it, no water gun feats means its an unquanfitiable issue. Without proof we can't say for sure how fast it is. Second, Suigetsu hasn't got the speed to hit Itachi without him reacting with a genjutsu, ammy, or susanoo sword to the gullet. See second Mizukage vs Onoki to see how fast it is. Regardless as I said, any of those attacks you listed is ineffective, so no real loss for Suigetsu while Itachi just wasted oodles of chakra trying to see if Amaterasu or any of his other attacks are effective. I don't think you're keeping Itachi's lack of knowledge in mind.

Itachi has all he needs in genjutsu, because Suigetsu doesn't have anything to even come close to hitting Itachi with that won't simply end in his own death.
Good thing Suigetsu can easily avoid being placed in genjutsu.

The Immortal Watch Dog

04-08-2012, 11:36 AM

Suigetsu isn't surviving a planet buster period.

That being said Gaia has a point magical eye ball punk is fighting an opponent tailor made to screw him

Frost ninja

04-08-2012, 11:41 AM

It would go through him. I really don't feel the need to waste my time to go back to find one of the most hundred times that Suigetsu was hit by a physical attack and merely liquified, if you think Suigetsu suddenly doesn't have that ability because I haven't posted any scans of it, you're trolling.

I don't see anything comparable to a planet buster he got hit with. Karen's kick is far from it.

Good thing each time it was used it physically pierced through the victim in order to seal them. Which it cannot do to Suigetsu because he liquifies. If you can find me a panel in which Totsuka sealed someone without piercing them first, then please, I'll be waiting. Until then, your argument about Totsuka being able to seal something it can't pierce has nothing to stand on.

392-27.

"Totsuka sword, a spirit sword with no real physical form"

So yes, Zetsu says its not physical. So then, all he has to do is pierce Suigetsu's water giant and its a seal? Glad we could get here, finally.

See second Mizukage vs Onoki to see how fast it is. Regardless as I said, any of those attacks you listed is ineffective, so no real loss for Suigetsu while Itachi just wasted oodles of chakra trying to see if Amaterasu or any of his other attacks are effective. I don't think you're keeping Itachi's lack of knowledge in mind.

Itachi was partnered with Kisame, I'm sure he has some knowledge on Suigetsu. Especially since Suigetsu and Kisame are both mist swordsmen, I doubt Itachi would randomly be unknowing of his partner's origins. As for Mizukage vs Onoki, I'm doubting that Suigetsu's unseen watergun is on par with the strongest water user in his village at that past time. Even then, the water gun was a given hit since it was a trick on him.

Amaterasu hasn't been stopped by water before, I don't see why it would suddenly be stopped now. Knowledge of Genjutsu doesn't mean you can avoid it. You are likening knowledge to clairvoyance.

Good thing Suigetsu can easily avoid being placed in genjutsu.

Good thing he can't if he ever wants to attack.

TRcommander

04-08-2012, 11:55 AM

No, but saying Itachi is one of the fastest characters in the manga is quite baseless.

Orly? I seem to recall him keeping up with nine-tails chakra mode Naruto and Killer B just fine. And that version of Naruto was able to dodge A when he was going all out sooooo......yeah. Itachi has been consistently noted throughout the series to be one of the faster people.

Other than that:
1) you're basically ignoring the fact that the totsuka sword isn't just a physical weapon
2) you keep saying that Suigetsu can avoid genjutsu, but you haven't explained how he actually plans on fighting Itachi without looking at him
3) You mentioned Suigetsu using the water gun again, but you still haven't provided evidence that he is even capable of using that technique
4) You seem to be claiming that Suigetsu is intangible despite the fact that.......wait for it.......water isn't intangible. I am perfectly capable of going up to a body of water and touching it. The totsuka sword is also capable of touching water.

Gaia

04-08-2012, 11:57 AM

Suigetsu isn't surviving a planet buster period.

That being said Gaia has a point magical eye ball punk is fighting an opponent tailor made to screw him
An energy-based planet buster, perhaps, but a punch would go right through him.

I'm going to use Tobi as an example again because people don't seem to understand Suigetsu's intangibility--of course Tobi wouldn't be able to survive a planet buster however intangible mode he would never be hit by said planet buster.

I don't see anything comparable to a planet buster he got hit with. Karen's kick is far from it.
Great thing that a planet busting kick or Karin's kick makes no difference as it simply goes through Suigetsu. How does one damage water by punching it?
392-27.
"Totsuka sword, a spirit sword with no real physical form"
I love how you ignore the thing Zetsu says right after: "Anything it pierces becomes trapped in a genjutsu for eternity" Anything it pierces. Pierces. Physically. How does it expect to seal something it cannot pierce? OH wait, it can't.
So yes, Zetsu says its not physical. So then, all he has to do is pierce Suigetsu's water giant and its a seal? Glad we could get here, finally.
Good thing he can't pierce Suigetsu because he can simply liquify and avoid being pierced. Itachi is going to waste his time if he tries to pierce a lake. The lake isn't Suigetsu.
Itachi was partnered with Kisame, I'm sure he has some knowledge on Suigetsu. Especially since Suigetsu and Kisame are both mist swordsmen, I doubt Itachi would randomly be unknowing of his partner's origins. As for Mizukage vs Onoki, I'm doubting that Suigetsu's unseen watergun is on par with the strongest water user in his village at that past time. Even then, the water gun was a given hit since it was a trick on him.
Onoki thanked Gaara for saving him, something tells me Onoki would have been killed off had that not been a sand clone. I don't think many people can survive a gun shot through the heart(or, rather chest or wherever the Mizukage happened to shoot him).
Amaterasu hasn't been stopped by water before, I don't see why it would suddenly be stopped now. Knowledge of Genjutsu doesn't mean you can avoid it. You are likening knowledge to clairvoyance.
Stopped? I never said it was stopped. Fortunately for Suigetsu it never burned through water and he has a lake at his disposal. He can simply move out of the way especially via liquification. He tanks Amaterasu easily.
Good thing he can't if he ever wants to attack.
That doesn't impair him at all.

1) you're basically ignoring the fact that the totsuka sword isn't just a physical weapon
2) you keep saying that Suigetsu can avoid genjutsu, but you haven't explained how he actually plans on fighting Itachi without looking at him
3) You mentioned Suigetsu using the water gun again, but you still haven't provided evidence that he is even capable of using that technique
4) You seem to be claiming that Suigetsu is intangible despite the fact that.......wait for it.......water isn't intangible. I am perfectly capable of going up to a body of water and touching it. The totsuka sword is also capable of touching water. I don't care if it isn't a physical weapon. It relies on physically piercing its opponent in order to kill him. He is completely, 100% unable to pierce Suigetsu. Totsuka is useless.

Well, if you don't look at someone's eyes while fighting them, then you won't get caught in their genjutsu. Given full knowledge, it's fairly simple.

When he met Sasuke, you ignored me when I posted that last time.

So totsuka can pierce a random lake and seal it? What the hell? I thought it was for absorbing entities? It can't absorb lifeless, regular old water. You're trolling and that's bull-;);););).

Frost ninja

04-08-2012, 12:03 PM

Your green prevents me from quoting you properly.

The guy above this post already pretty much stopped your argument by saying water isn't intangable. You can touch water.

Even if Suigetsu goes as watery as he can possibly be, he is still touchable. Meaning its possible to pierce him with a sword since, him being water, its not all that hard to do.

Can't seal Tobi because by going intang. you literally cannot touch him at all. He isn't there to seal.

Suigetsu doesn't have the benefit. Still gets sealeed. The sword sucked up Oro's entire boss summon, I don't doubt it can suck Suigetsu out of the water.

And not attacking hampers him... because then he can't attack.

Gaia

04-08-2012, 12:05 PM

He can liquify to avoid the sword completely. How does Itachi seal him if there is no Suigetsu to seal? He is literally trying to seal a lake. Totsuka is, again, useless.

I really don't think you understand how Suigetsu's hydration technique works. Allow me to post this page.
actually, I think I should remove this and post the page numbers since Ive seen you people do that
Chapter 413 page 7 I believe it was
I also love how you're totally oblivious to the rest of my post, and must rely on others to give you a reason Itachi can win in order to respond with.

TRcommander

04-08-2012, 12:07 PM

I don't care if it isn't a physical weapon. It relies on physically piercing its opponent in order to kill him. He is completely, 100% unable to pierce Suigetsu. Totsuka is useless.

Where does it state that it has to physically pierce the target? Chakra is perfectly capable of piercing too. The definition of "piercing" is to run into or through. The totsuka sword is perfectly capable of going through water.

Well, if you don't look at someone's eyes while fighting them, then you won't get caught in their genjutsu. Given full knowledge, it's fairly simple.

Suigetsu can't look at Itachi's eyes or hands. That's very limiting for someone without practice.

When he met Sasuke, you ignored me when I posted that last time.

No he didn't. He never even formed a water bullet, let alone actually shot one off.

So totsuka can pierce a random lake and seal it? What the hell? I thought it was for absorbing entities? It can't absorb lifeless, regular old water. You're trolling and that's bull-;);););).

Way to ignore the entire point. You have claimed that Suigetsu's hydrification is like Tobi's intangibility......that is simply ridiculous. Water isn't intangible. And clearly the Totsuka sword isn't sealing water......it's sealing Suigetsu's chakra that is in the water.

Frost ninja

04-08-2012, 12:11 PM

I already gave my reasoning, he just happened to beat me to it because I refreshed the page. Don't disillusion yourself, although credit goes to him for finding the good info.

Also 413-7? Why didn't he just fight KB on his own then? By what you say, he obviously wasn't affected by the explosion or Lariat. Also he shouldn't be saying "ugh" or looking hurt at all, he should be raising up like the terminator and saying "Good thing it doesn't affect me."

Unless, perhaps, it does.

Gaia

04-08-2012, 12:11 PM

Where does it state that it has to physically pierce the target? Chakra is perfectly capable of piercing too.

Suigetsu can't look at Itachi's eyes or hands. That's very limiting for someone without practice.

No he didn't. He never even formed a water bullet, let alone actually shot one off.

Way to ignore the entire point. You have claimed that Suigetsu's hydrification is like Tobi's intangibility......that is simply ridiculous. Water isn't intangible. And clearly the Totsuka sword isn't sealing water......it's sealing Suigetsu's chakra that is in the water.How do you "chakra pierce" something? It doesn't matter if you use chakra or taijutsu, physical attacks are physical. You don't stab through something with a non-physical attack, that is retarded. Totsuka has literally physically pierced through the victim's stomach each time it was used. Find me a page where that wasn't required to pierce its target and I'll withdraw my argument. Suigetsu easily liquifies and can avoid it.

Then let's ignore any heavy implications and stick with Suigetsu drowning Itachi to death.

Suigetsu doesn't become the entire lake. He merges with the water. Itachi will have no idea where he is and be completely unable to pierce water with Totsuka.

The Immortal Watch Dog

04-08-2012, 12:12 PM

An energy-based planet buster, perhaps, but a punch would go right through him.

Gadiator flexes his biceps near Suigetsu..Suigetsu Earth and Venus and likely mars as well would become cosmic dust and mass scattered.

Suigetsu would be dispersed and as dead as Julius Caesar - his elemental affinity would not save him from being blasted into billions of droplets and hurled all over the solar system never to reform. Assuming even that much would survive.

I'm going to use Tobi as an example again because people don't seem to understand Suigetsu's intangibility--of course Tobi wouldn't be able to survive a planet buster however intangible mode he would never be hit by said planet buster.

Tobi would be caught in it and he'd be dispersed- I'm not particularly sure why people claim intangibility would save him from say the deathstar..or kid buu's energy blast both contain enough force to vape Jupiter about ten times over.

OP fans used to make the same claims back in 07 in Logia vs Marvel and DC top tier debates and it was kinda wonky back then..it feels just as much now.

Now granted I get what your saying but- who ever brought up planet busters first aside...You might have been better off using a smaller scale.

Where does it state that it has to physically pierce the target? Chakra is perfectly capable of piercing too. The definition of "piercing" is to run into or through. The totsuka sword is perfectly capable of going through water.

that was shown on panel actually.

Statements have very little validity here

Gaia

04-08-2012, 12:13 PM

I already gave my reasoning, he just happened to beat me to it because I refreshed the page. Don't disillusion yourself.

Also 413-7? Why didn't he just fight KB on his own then? By what you say, he obviously wasn't affected by the explosion or Lariat. Also he shouldn't be saying "ugh" or looking hurt at all, he should be raising up like the terminator and saying "Good thing it doesn't affect me."

Unless, perhaps, it does.
Actually, the Ugh was because he was just hit by Sasuke's chidori. AKA a ninjutsu, a raiton attack. He was never hit by physical attacks and cared. He can't fight Killer Bee on his own because as he says pages before, Killer Bee actually has something that can hurt Suigetsu that Itachi doesn't. Energy based attacks(TBB), and Raiton techniques(which Suigetsu admits;his weakness).

I posted that because he becomes and merges into the water. You think he still has a physical form, incorrect.

Gaia

04-08-2012, 12:17 PM

Gadiator flexes his biceps near Suigetsu..Suigetsu Earth and Venus and likely mars as well would become cosmic dust and mass scattered.

Suigetsu would be dispersed and as dead as Julius Caesar - his elemental affinity would not save him from being blasted into billions of droplets and hurled all over the solar system never to reform. Assuming even that much would survive.

Tobi would be caught in it and he'd be dispersed- I'm not particularly sure why people claim intangibility would save him from say the deathstar..or kid buu's energy blast both contain enough force to vape Jupiter about ten times over.

OP fans used to make the same claims back in 07 in Logia vs Marvel and DC top tier debates and it was kinda wonky back then..it feels just as much now.

Now granted I get what your saying but- who ever brought up planet busters first aside...You might have been better off using a smaller scale.
Heh, I don't mean attacks that are so powerful they literally destroy everything in the radius. Suigetsu would be, like you said dispersed. I mean a simple punch that if collided with a planet would destroy it. It wouldn't be able to hurt Suigetsu because as a punch it would just go through him.

If an attack that works like you say hit Tobi then he would be destroyed--but keep in mind Tobi literally erases his physical presence from the world. If Buu used an energy attack to destroy him and the planet he's standing on, no matter what damae is caused Tobi would come out unharmed because he's not there to be hit by said attack.

Keep in mind also it's 100% circumstantial and given that Tobi ever gets a chance to initiate his intangibility, attacks like that would have no effect. But he would never be able to stand a chance against these guys or these types of attacks in an actual battle situation, I'm just discussing the intangible factor here.

Frost ninja

04-08-2012, 12:17 PM

How do you "chakra pierce" something? It doesn't matter if you use chakra or taijutsu, physical attacks are physical. You don't stab through something with a non-physical attack, that is retarded. Totsuka has literally physically pierced through the victim's stomach each time it was used. Find me a page where that wasn't required to pierce its target and I'll withdraw my argument. Suigetsu easily liquifies and can avoid it.

Suigetsu gets vaccumed out of the lake like Kisame Vaccum'd chakra out of the fellow with the glasses and the "stone needles" jutsu. Also are you saying water isn't physical? If so, then I'm 70% empty, the ocean is unswimmable, and I'm going to be a very thirsty person after a mid-afternoon jog.

Then let's ignore any heavy implications and stick with Suigetsu drowning Itachi to death.

Which he can't do.

Suigetsu doesn't become the entire lake. He merges with the water. Itachi will have no idea where he is and be completely unable to pierce water with Totsuka.

Until he comes to attack. Or until Itachi leaves the water. Or if Itachi stabs in his general area. Or Itachi just waits there, letting Suigetsu whittle away his lessened chakra.

@ watchdog

Only the sith deal in absolutes. He is saying that he is immune, I'm saying he is not.

TRcommander

04-08-2012, 12:20 PM

How do you "chakra pierce" something?

Naruto's FRS. chapter 346 page 16. It is completely chakra made, and it stabbed the cells.

It doesn't matter if you use chakra or taijutsu, physical attacks are physical. You don't stab through something with a non-physical attack, that is retarded. Totsuka has literally physically pierced through the victim's stomach each time it was used. Find me a page where that wasn't required to pierce its target and I'll withdraw my argument. Suigetsu easily liquifies and can avoid it.

Just because it's made out of chakra doesn't mean it's not capable of stabbing.

Then let's ignore any heavy implications and stick with Suigetsu drowning Itachi to death.

Except he can't.

Suigetsu doesn't become the entire lake. He merges with the water. Itachi will have no idea where he is and be completely unable to pierce water with Totsuka.

Really? Because Suigetsu has to take on some kind of form to actually attack otherwise all he's doing is just sitting there as part of the body of water.

Gaia

04-08-2012, 12:20 PM

Until he comes to attack. Or until Itachi leaves the water. Or if Itachi stabs in his general area. Or Itachi just waits there, letting Suigetsu whittle away his lessened chakra.

@ watchdog

Only the sith deal in absolutes. He is saying that he is immune, I'm saying he is not.
How does the totsuka instantly pierce the real Suigetsu out of millions of gallons of water? It's impossible. By the time Totsuka actually starts sealing what it pierced, there is absolutely nothing to pierce. It can't pierce Suigetsu, it goes through him.

TRcommander

04-08-2012, 12:22 PM

How does the totsuka instantly pierce the real Suigetsu out of millions of gallons of water? It's impossible. By the time Totsuka actually starts sealing what it pierced, there is absolutely nothing to pierce. It can't pierce Suigetsu, it goes through him.

How does Suigetsu attack without using his chakra to manipulate the water? So as soon as Suigetsu prepares an attack, Itachi can just seal all of that chakra.

Gaia

04-08-2012, 12:23 PM

Naruto's FRS. chapter 346 page 16. It is completely chakra made, and it stabbed the cells. If anything the explosion would kill Suigetsu by evaporating the water. If not, it's a physical attack(however ninjutsu) so Suigetsu should be generall unharmed if in water form.
Just because it's made out of chakra doesn't mean it's not capable of stabbing.It is capable of stabbing, but there's nothing to stab. It's made out of chakra, it has to physically stab. Which it can't. There's nothing to stab. Suigetsu liquifies.

Except he can't.

Really? Because Suigetsu has to take on some kind of form to actually attack otherwise all he's doing is just sitting there as part of the body of water.Good thing he has his sword which can smash craters into the ground as he swings it, and nowhere does he need to stay 100% liquified to prevent Totsuka from effecting him, because he's made of water and will liquify if it tries to stab him.

How does Suigetsu attack without using his chakra to manipulate the water? So as soon as Suigetsu prepares an attack, Itachi can just seal all of that chakra. What are you even talking about now? Suigetsu can walk straight up to Itachi and take the Totsuka head on. The part that gets stabbed easily liquifies and he tanks it. Totsuka isn't doing crap sealing him if it can't touch him.

Frost ninja

04-08-2012, 12:23 PM

that was shown on panel actually.

Statements have very little validity here

Does it require him to "stab them" though, or go through them? Because although statements have very little validity, if we remove his statement then we don't know what Susanoo does. Plus there was the "sealed the boss summon" even though he didn't physically stab the summon itself.

We can assume Susanoo seals due to the statements that it seals. We can also assume it seals anyone and anything, hence the boss summon. Why is water any different when theres a human mass of chakra inside?

Also assuming Suigetsu can react (something he lacks total feats of to the point of getting hit by Karen) fast enough to liquify in the first place before Itachi drops him into the sword dimension.

The Immortal Watch Dog

04-08-2012, 12:23 PM

Heh, I don't mean attacks that are so powerful they literally destroy everything in the radius. Suigetsu would be, like you said dispersed. I mean a simple punch that if collided with a planet would destroy it. It wouldn't be able to hurt Suigetsu because as a punch it would just go through him.

Suigetsu would if he's lucky end up like Freiza when Namek imploded IE: a huge piece of land mass shields him from the main blast and he is carried out on it. But even then any proof he can survive being slapped in the face by something say Africa sized? IE can he avoid being dispersed by that?. But even if he's on the opposite side of the planet..for one of say Gladiators fists...or post Crisis Supermans Emo tackles onto planetoids *(IIRC he destroyed one of Saturns moons by smashing himself into it really hard) He should still be dispersed due to the huge amount of force.

If not it's an "I have no mouth and I must scream" situations

If an attack that works like you say hit Tobi then he would be destroyed--but keep in mind Tobi literally erases his physical presence from the world. If Buu used an energy attack to destroy him and the planet he's standing on, no matter what damae is caused Tobi would come out unharmed because he's not there to be hit by said attack.

I was under the impression Tobi phases himself out of sync with our space, not literally retcons himself away every time he phases.

Those are two seperate issues and one does not guarantee survival and the other seems like a perm Izanagi and he didn't have that.

Keep in mind also it's 100% circumstantial and given that Tobi ever gets a chance to initiate his intangibilit, attacks like that would have no effect but he would never be able to stand a chance against these guys or these types of attacks in an actual battle situation, I'm just discussing the intangible factor here.

I am aware of that: I know you aren't making such a claim but while we're on the topic of it: I've seen the intangibility factor abused very hard by HST fans for years...When it comes down to the meat and potatoes as it were of the actual argument: Can someone like Tobi or Kizaru withstand world sundering force and not be dispersed

it usually ends either in a shitstorm or with the other side relenting.

The Immortal Watch Dog

04-08-2012, 12:25 PM

Does it require him to "stab them" though, or go through them? Because although statements have very little validity, if we remove his statement then we don't know what Susanoo does. Plus there was the "sealed the boss summon" even though he didn't physically stab the summon itself.

Based on how it needed to penetrate Oro yes

We can assume Susanoo seals due to the statements that it seals. We can also assume it seals anyone and anything, hence the boss summon. Why is water any different when theres a human mass of chakra inside?

Why would you assume that? Wasn't the boss summons physical? We see Suso seal thus we know it seals

Frost ninja

04-08-2012, 12:28 PM

Based on how it needed to penetrate Oro yes
All the same, it passes through him. It stabs him, goes through him. In any way of it, it passes through some body of chakra and seals it.

Why would you assume that? Wasn't the boss summons physical? We see Suso seal thus we know it seals

Is water not physical? Can you not touch it? Also we see Susanoo suck him in, but we don't know about the sealing. It could be a soul-sapper for all we know, it could be like kuwabara's sword and suck them into a seperate dimension. Between directly hitting the soul and directly malforming reality, I think the statements solidfy the sealing.

Like those pictures that look to be one way, but are really another. You see a young man in a coffin, how did he die? Without a statement, you cannot be sure.

TRcommander

04-08-2012, 12:33 PM

If anything the explosion would kill Suigetsu by evaporating the water. If not, it's a physical attack(however ninjutsu) so Suigetsu should be generall unharmed if in water form.It is capable of stabbing, but there's nothing to stab. It's made out of chakra, it has to physically stab. Which it can't. There's nothing to stab. Suigetsu liquifies.

No see, now you're adding requirements. Please show me where it is said that the sword must physically stab the opponent. It says that it must 'pierce' the target, and the definition of 'pierce' is: to go into or through something. The totsuka sword is capable of 'going through' the water and sealing whatever chakra is in it.

Good thing he has his sword which can smash craters into the ground as he swings it, and nowhere does he need to stay 100% liquified to prevent Totsuka from effecting him, because he's made of water and will liquify if it tries to stab him.

Good thing Itachi can dodge. And good thing that whatever water is holding the sword must have chakra in it, and that chakra can be sealed.

What are you even talking about now? Suigetsu can walk straight up to Itachi and take the Totsuka head on. The part that gets stabbed easily liquifies and he tanks it. Totsuka isn't doing crap sealing him if it can't touch him.

Again, the totsuka sword can touch water, and it will seal whatever chakra is in it. I really don't know why you think water is intagible. Can you touch water? yes. Can the totsuka sword touch water? yes.

The Immortal Watch Dog

04-08-2012, 12:40 PM

All the same, it passes through him. It stabs him, goes through him. In any way of it, it passes through some body of chakra and seals it.

No it stabbed him in the chest then physically absorbed him IIRC

Is water not physical? Can you not touch it? Also we see Susanoo suck him in, but we don't know about the sealing. It could be a soul-sapper for all we know, it could be like kuwabara's sword and suck them into a seperate dimension. Between directly hitting the soul and directly malforming reality, I think the statements solidfy the sealing.

yes water is physical but it seems like he needs to actually penetrate the flesh and stab you..At least this is Gaias argument. My take on this is Suigetsu just runs away from Itachi until he dies from Typical Uchiha Chakra fatigue or TUCF and avoids getting knifed all together

Like those pictures that look to be one way, but are really another. You see a young man in a coffin, how did he die? Without a statement, you cannot be sure.

sept we don't need to know how he died..only that he's dead.

We saw the sealing take place...the narration does nothing more than confirm what you just saw with your own eyes

Gaia

04-08-2012, 12:42 PM

Suigetsu would if he's lucky end up like Freiza when Namek imploded IE: a huge piece of land mass shields him from the main blast and he is carried out on it. But even then any proof he can survive being slapped in the face by something say Africa sized? IE can he avoid being dispersed by that?. But even if he's on the opposite side of the planet..for one of say Gladiators fists...or post Crisis Supermans Emo tackles onto planetoids *(IIRC he destroyed one of Saturns moons by smashing himself into it really hard) He should still be dispersed due to the huge amount of force. Well as I'm saying, I'm not really referring to the sheer force that would result from an attack like that. I'm quite confident I recall plenty of times people punching with the force to destroy planets, but the punch didn't send blasts that ripped apart everything in the radius away. More like, when it hits its target the damage occurs. So anyone to be punched by this would die, but considering Suigetsu can simply liquify against the punch it would go through him and he'd be unaffected. I'm sure if a piece of land the size of Africa smashed into him he'd be fine, he would liquify and wouldn't be damaged by it assuming he doesn;'t actually "disperse".

If not it's an "I have no mouth and I must scream" situations

I was under the impression Tobi phases himself out of sync with our space, not literally retcons himself away every time he phases.

Those are two seperate issues and one does not guarantee survival and the other seems like a perm Izanagi and he didn't have that. I'm not sure, if there are attacks that work specifically with that sort of thing then sure. But if it's a simple Kamehameha or the like it shouldn't actually harm Tobi but go through him. If it actually destroyed the planet and put Tobi in space, that's a different matter but like I said before that's not what I'm trying to get to.

I am aware of that: I know you aren't making such a claim but while we're on the topic of it: I've seen the intangibility factor abused very hard by HST fans for years...When it comes down to the meat and potatoes as it were of the actual argument: Can someone like Tobi or Kizaru withstand world sundering force and not be dispersed

it usually ends either in a shitstorm or with the other side relenting.Ha, alright, just making sure.
Is water not physical? Can you not touch it? Also we see Susanoo suck him in, but we don't know about the sealing. It could be a soul-sapper for all we know, it could be like kuwabara's sword and suck them into a seperate dimension. Between directly hitting the soul and directly malforming reality, I think the statements solidfy the sealing.

Like those pictures that look to be one way, but are really another. You see a young man in a coffin, how did he die? Without a statement, you cannot be sure.
There's nothing to physically pierce. As far as Itachi and the Totsuka is confirmed, they are stabbing air. Suigetsu is not there, they can't pierce Suigetsu and proceed to seal him if he is not pierced. The Totsuka doesn't seal something if it hits an object 5 feet away from the person it's trying to seal. That's completely ridiculous. I'm sure you realize that by now.

No see, now you're adding requirements. Please show me where it is said that the sword must physically stab the opponent. It says that it must 'pierce' the target, and the definition of 'pierce' is: to go into or through something. The totsuka sword is capable of 'going through' the water and sealing whatever chakra is in it.Go to the page Frost Ninja provided about it being physical.

Actually, you answered it right there. It can't go through Suigetsu, he liquifies and the Totsuka is "piercing", or "going through" nothing at all.

And stop changing things up because of semantics or you're going to start horribly contradicting yourself.

Good thing Itachi can dodge. And good thing that whatever water is holding the sword must have chakra in it, and that chakra can be sealed.Good thing Suigetsu is made of liquid and Suigetsu can keep hitting him and isn't restricted to not moving.

Again, the totsuka sword can touch water, and it will seal whatever chakra is in it. I really don't know why you think water is intagible. Can you touch water? yes. Can the totsuka sword touch water? yes.It can touch water, but it can't seal water with nothing in it. This is not a hard concept to grasp, if you're not putting any sense aside just to back-up Itachi anyway. Totsuka sword can't seal what it can't pierce right? Right. It can't pierce Suigetsu because he is immune to physical damage and can liquify to avoid it? Right. Totsuka is useless.

yes water is physical but it seems like he needs to actually penetrate the flesh and stab you..At least this is Gaias argument.
Partially, but not entirely. If Suigetsu were to sit there and do nothing, Totsuka would have no problem piercing through his water body and it does have chakra. Sealing him here is debatable. I mean it's fairly obvious it wouldn't be able to seal him as all the Totsuka is doing is stabbing through nothing, but regardless. Suigetsu from there can easily liquify and avoid it, the Totsuka is stabbing through nothingness, it's impossible to seal Suigetsu if it's not piercing anything.

Godaime Kazekage

04-08-2012, 12:42 PM

TRcommander

04-08-2012, 12:46 PM

There's nothing to physically pierce. As far as Itachi and the Totsuka is confirmed, they are stabbing air. Suigetsu is not there, they can't pierce Suigetsu and proceed to seal him if he is not pierced. The Totsuka doesn't seal something if it hits an object 5 feet away from the person it's trying to seal. That's completely ridiculous. I'm sure you realize that by now.

They're not stabbing air.....they're stabbing the water that has Suigetsu's chakra in it. That same chakra filled water that is Suigetsu's only method of attack unless he reverts back to normal. The chakra in the water will be sealed.

Actually, you answered it right there. It can't go through Suigetsu, he liquifies and the Totsuka is "piercing", or "going through" nothing at all.

And stop changing things up because of semantics or you're going to start horribly contradicting yourself.

No....the totsuka sword is going through chakra filled water. Chakra filled water isn't 'nothing.'

Good thing Suigetsu is made of liquid and Suigetsu can keep hitting him and isn't restricted to not moving.

Good thing the chakra in that liquid can be sealed.

It can touch water, but it can't seal water with nothing in it. This is not a hard concept to grasp, if you're not putting any sense aside just to back-up Itachi anyway. Totsuka sword can't seal what it can't pierce right? Right. It can't pierce Suigetsu because he is immune to physical damage and can liquify to avoid it? Right. Totsuka is useless.

Except the water does have something in it......it has Suigetsu's chakra in it.

@TRCommander and Frost ninja

Gaia isn't going to change his mind anytime soon (aka ever). He seems to be of the mindset that only a massive energy attack or Raiton can hurt Suigetsu and if you don't have it than you lose. (Screw Hashi's DNA and attempting to become the next Rikudo Sennin-everyone should just try to learn the Hydrification technique`:)

I stopped posting in this thread awhile ago because we've just been rehashing the same old arguments and neither side is going to give up. I recommend you guys spend your time doing something more productive.

I don't allow people to get away with making ridiculous claims like this. If you let them then they just get worse and worse, and then more people making ridiculous claims show up cause they think it's alright, and then you have a problem.

Gaia

04-08-2012, 12:48 PM

@TRCommander and Frost ninja

Gaia isn't going to change his mind anytime soon (aka ever). He seems to be of the mindset that only a massive energy attack or Raiton can hurt Suigetsu and if you don't have it than you lose. (Screw Hashi's DNA and attempting to become the next Rikudo Sennin-everyone should just try to learn the Hydrification technique`:)

I stopped posting in this thread awhile ago because we've just been rehashing the same old arguments and neither side is going to give up. I recommend you guys spend your time doing something more productive.This is what debates are about. If I was proved wrong about it then I'd gladly admit Itachi wins. However I'm 100% confident that Itachi doesn't have a way to hurt Suigetsu so of course I won't change my mind, Itachi doesn't have anything capable of hurting him.

Energy based attacks are obviously some ninjutsu attacks. Physical attacks are either taijutsu or ninjutsu, it depends on the ninjutsu. Suigetsu is not invincible, Itachi is just a horrible matchup for him. Same with someone like Guy. Suigetsu would destroy Guy, he would sit there until Guy runs out of chakra because he can't be hurt by any of his attacks. Plenty of characters have what it takes to beat Suigetsu.

Gaia

04-08-2012, 12:50 PM

They're not stabbing air.....they're stabbing the water that has Suigetsu's chakra in it. That same chakra filled water that is Suigetsu's only method of attack unless he reverts back to normal. The chakra in the water will be sealed.

No....the totsuka sword is going through chakra filled water. Chakra filled water isn't 'nothing.So Suigetsu must split his chakra up into the millions every time he merges with the lake. If he merged with an ocean every inch of the ocean would be filled with 1/100,000,000,000th of his chakra so that Itachi on another continent would be able to seal Suigetsu by stabbing the water. Great logic.

Sasuke uses fireball jutsu. Itachi pierces the fireball with Totsuka. It has Sasuke's chakra in it, so Sasuke is sealed?

Good thing the chakra in that liquid can be sealed.

Except the water does have something in it......it has Suigetsu's chakra in it.
It does not, not if Suigetsu isn't there to be stabbed by Totsuka in the first place.

The Immortal Watch Dog

04-08-2012, 12:50 PM

Well as I'm saying, I'm not really referring to the sheer force that would result from an attack like that. I'm quite confident I recall plenty of times people punching with the force to destroy planets, but the punch didn't send blasts that ripped apart everything in the radius away. More like, when it hits its target the damage occurs. So anyone to be punched by this would die, but considering Suigetsu can simply liquify against the punch it would go through him and he'd be unaffected.

I would need to see any one in the HST tanking something like that elemental or otherwise before I even considered it. I'm quite confident that his watery nature wouldn't particularly save him from a blood lust blow from someone like Thing or Hulk

if for any other reason then..if he liquefied he'd end up all over the mid west- Though that's another issue as well- that directed force is gonna be a whole lot worse.

I'm sure if a piece of land the size of Africa smashed into him he'd be fine, he would liquify and wouldn't be damaged by it assuming he doesn;'t actually "disperse".

Why wouldn't be droplets scattered all over Africa? Why wouldn't the sheer force of the impact not scatter him or turn him into gas or something?

I don't think so..there is a limit to what his type of intangibility can and can't do for him.

I'm not sure, if there are attacks that work specifically with that sort of thing then sure. But if it's a simple Kamehameha or the like it shouldn't actually harm Tobi but go through him. If it actually destroyed the planet and put Tobi in space, that's a different matter but like I said before that's not what I'm trying to get to.

granted a Chi blast doesn't have the same affects as a nuclear bomb but we're still talking about an enormous amount of energy applied directly at Tobi..

although Chi is kind of a bad example again due to it having wonky properties that in some cases allows the user to just break dimensions by screaming: My bad- I used a poor example.

let's switch to say..A nuke Would tobi survive the initial blast? I'm sure he'd die of radiation poisoning even if he did yes? Since you seem to feel his intangibility wont save him from vacuum. So let's just stick with "can he survive the initial blast" and omit the rest.

Ha, alright, just making sure.

I read ya loud and clear:)

TRcommander

04-08-2012, 12:53 PM

So Suigetsu must split his chakra up into the millions every time he merges with the lake. If he merged with an ocean every inch of the ocean would be filled with 1/100,000,000,000th of his chakra so that Itachi on another continent would be able to seal Suigetsu by stabbing the water. Great logic.

Actually, I've been saying the exact opposite.....Suigetsu has always been shown to have a centralized location when he uses the technique. That centralized location gets sealed.

Sasuke uses fireball jutsu. Itachi pierces the fireball with Totsuka. It has Sasuke's chakra in it, so Sasuke is sealed?

The difference is that Sasuke's fireball isn't still connected to the rest of his chakra.

It does not, not if Suigetsu isn't there to be stabbed by Totsuka in the first place.

How does Suigetsu move the water if it isn't being controlled by chakra?

The Immortal Watch Dog

04-08-2012, 12:54 PM

. Suigetsu would destroy Guy,.

Yeah I'm not sure about that Gai seems to be capable of destroying large volumes of water (At least I think I'm remembering some time ago him doing this) and land with his higher end movesets.

I doubt Suigetsu would be as safe against him as he is against itachi

Godaime Kazekage

04-08-2012, 12:56 PM

This is what debates are about. If I was proved wrong about it then I'd gladly admit Itachi wins. However I'm 100% confident that Itachi doesn't have a way to hurt Suigetsu so of course I won't change my mind, Itachi doesn't have anything capable of hurting him.

Energy based attacks are obviously some ninjutsu attacks. Physical attacks are either taijutsu or ninjutsu, it depends on the ninjutsu. Suigetsu is not invincible, Itachi is just a horrible matchup for him. Same with someone like Guy. Suigetsu would destroy Guy, he would sit there until Guy runs out of chakra because he can't be hurt by any of his attacks. Plenty of characters have what it takes to beat Suigetsu.

I know how debates work, but what I'm saying is that this thread is stuck in a rut`o.o" The conversation isn't really progressing, just the same issue of Totsuka working or not and how effective Suigetsu's "intangibility" is. It's obvious that both sides are 100% sure they're right and it's like watching two people banging their heads against a wall.

And since you said that, I'll hold you to it-what characters beat Suigetsu in your opinion? Not including large scale energy attackers (Naruto and Bee) and Raiton users (Sasuke, Raikage etc.)

Gaia

04-08-2012, 12:57 PM

I would need to see any one in the HST tanking something like that elemental or otherwise before I even considered it. I'm quite confident that his watery nature wouldn't particularly save him from a blood lust blow from someone like Thing or Hulk

if for any other reason then..if he liquefied he'd end up all over the mid west- Though that's another issue as well- that directed force is gonna be a whole lot worse.

Why wouldn't be droplets scattered all over Africa? Why wouldn't the sheer force of the impact not scatter him or turn him into gas or something?

I don't think so..there is a limit to what his type of intangibility can and can't do for him.For the Thing or Hulk..perhaps. For the rest, that's what I'm saying. If Suigetsu isn't literally completely destroyed or spread out from the blast then, I suppose he should just be able to reform, especially if he has a lake under him to give him the, "logia" effect or what you will.

granted a Chi blast doesn't have the same affects as a nuclear bomb but we're still talking about an enormous amount of energy applied directly at Tobi..

although Chi is kind of a bad example again due to it having wonky properties that in some cases allows the user to just break dimensions by screaming: My bad- I used a poor example.

let's switch to say..A nuke Would tobi survive the initial blast? I'm sure he'd die of radiation poisoning even if he did yes? Since you seem to feel his intangibility wont save him from vacuum. So let's just stick with "can he survive the initial blast" and omit the rest.

I read ya loud and clear:)I'm fairly sure he could survive the initial blast due to being literally intangible in which attacks go through him. Who knows, I don't exactly analyze 100% and I'm not the author so I don't know how that ;);););) works. I know for sure he wouldn't be able to survive the after-effects and radiation of said nuke as you said, but again we weren't discussing what happened afterwards.

The Immortal Watch Dog

04-08-2012, 01:01 PM

For the Thing or Hulk..perhaps. For the rest, that's what I'm saying. If Suigetsu isn't literally completely destroyed or spread out from the blast then, I suppose he should just be able to reform, especially if he has a lake under him to give him the, "logia" effect or what you will.

I'm sure he has a limit below Thing or Hulk though: for example I can't see him just eating WB's blows to the face and walking away from that. Especially considering what he can do to other elementals

I'm fairly sure he could survive the initial blast due to being literally intangible in which attacks go through him. Who knows, I don't exactly analyze 100% and I'm not the author so I don't know how that ;);););) works. I know for sure he wouldn't be able to survive the after-effects and radiation of said nuke as you said, but again we weren't discussing what happened afterwards.

To be perfectly honest Kishimoto could be in here with us contributing and I'd still assign more value to your post or Frosts or Tr's then I would his own word of god. The guy is such a mess right now with his writing that you can't make heads or tails of it all.

Does his phasing protect against the intense heat? Would his lunges not explode in his chest? Tobi still seems to need to breath no?

Gaia

04-08-2012, 01:04 PM

I know how debates work, but what I'm saying is that this thread is stuck in a rut`o.o" The conversation isn't really progressing, just the same issue of Totsuka working or not and how effective Suigetsu's "intangibility" is. It's obvious that both sides are 100% sure they're right and it's like watching two people banging their heads against a wall.

And since you said that, I'll hold you to it-what characters beat Suigetsu in your opinion? Not including large scale energy attackers (Naruto and Bee) and Raiton users (Sasuke, Raikage etc.)
Yeah, I agree with that. There is a difference though, the Itachi supporters are wrong and I am right.

I don't know who there is to name if you do take away the attacks that are able to kill him. I think these characters could beat him to name a few and not all, only a few (though I'm sure some will fall into your category).
Pain, Jiraiya, Kakuzu, Kisame, Sasori, any of the jinchuuriki depending on the situation, second Mizukage, Mangetsu(the last two were a given heh), hell I don't know there's quite a few but I can't think of them all. Itachi just doesn't have what it takes.
Yeah I'm not sure about that Gai seems to be capable of destroying large volumes of water (At least I think I'm remembering some time ago him doing this) and land with his higher end movesets.

I doubt Suigetsu would be as safe against him as he is against itachi
Yeah, things like Hirudora would be the one thing that gives him a shot considering...the obvious.
Actually, I've been saying the exact opposite.....Suigetsu has always been shown to have a centralized location when he uses the technique. That centralized location gets sealed.
He doesn't have a centralized location, I gave you a page a few posts back for a reason, because you were a bit misinformed to how his technique works.

The difference is that Sasuke's fireball isn't still connected to the rest of his chakra.

How does Suigetsu move the water if it isn't being controlled by chakra?Okay, Kisame is in the middle of spitting out a lake. Itachi touches the lake with totsuka. Kisame is sealed?

This is actually quite perfect because Suigetsu is in the lake and/or part of the lake, Itachi has absoluytely no way to seal him.

ANd on that note, I think I should note myself on account that this thread's pretty active at the moment, that I have to leave for a bit so if there aren't any replies for awhile you know why. Ta-ta.

TRcommander

04-08-2012, 01:13 PM

Yeah, I agree with that. There is a difference though, the Itachi supporters are wrong and I am right.

Not gonna lie, that actually made me laugh and not in a bad way.

He doesn't have a centralized location, I gave you a page a few posts back for a reason, because you were a bit misinformed to how his technique works.

Are you talking about chapter 413 page 76? Because his head is clearly formed there.

Okay, Kisame is in the middle of spitting out a lake. Itachi touches the lake with totsuka. Kisame is sealed? This is actually quite perfect because Suigetsu is in the lake and/or part of the lake, Itachi has absoluytely no way to seal him.

No, because Kisame's body isn't the lake. The whole point is that Suigetsu's body is becoming part of the water and it's infused with his chakra, and the totsuka sword can seal that chakra.

ANd on that note, I think I should note myself on account that this thread's pretty active at the moment, that I have to leave for a bit so if there aren't any replies for awhile you know why. Ta-ta.

Good.....I actually have tons of studying to do that I'm procrastinating on because of this thread.

Frost ninja

04-08-2012, 01:13 PM

Yeah, I agree with that. There is a difference though, the Itachi supporters are wrong and I am right.

I don't know who there is to name if you do take away the attacks that are able to kill him. I think these characters could beat him to name a few and not all, only a few (though I'm sure some will fall into your category).
Pain, Jiraiya, Kakuzu, Kisame, Sasori, any of the jinchuuriki depending on the situation, second Mizukage, Mangetsu(the last two were a given heh), hell I don't know there's quite a few but I can't think of them all. Itachi just doesn't have what it takes.

Confidence is good, I know all about that. However, theres not room to say "they are wrong, I am right".

Lets say your theory is true, and Itachi can't seal Suigetsu in the ocean. He walks onto dry land.

Not that he even needs to, as I said Genjutsu is a win since Suigetsu can't attack without getting hit by it. You can have all the knowledge in the world about an attack, but that doesn't mean you can do anything to stop it when your best reactions are getting footed by Karen and your fastest attacks all get knocked away like paper.

This is supposing your right, and somehow Suigetsu can maintain his form over that far of a mass of ocean without losing all of his chakra in the meantime, and then chooses to not attack at all in any way or even form himself into anything.

Just sitting ocean.

The Immortal Watch Dog

04-08-2012, 01:17 PM

Hirudo wouldn't give him a shot it'd be a game changer Suigetso would have to do whatever he could to prevent one of those moves from connecting..while dealing with class 15 or so blows that should be backed up by enough heat and speed to boil parts of his body.

Gai is..rather dangerous to be perfectly honest he's a lot like Suigetsu in that he's underrated way too often.

Gaia

04-08-2012, 07:49 PM

Not gonna lie, that actually made me laugh and not in a bad way.

Are you talking about chapter 413 page 76? Because his head is clearly formed there.

No, because Kisame's body isn't the lake. The whole point is that Suigetsu's body is becoming part of the water and it's infused with his chakra, and the totsuka sword can seal that chakra.

Good.....I actually have tons of studying to do that I'm procrastinating on because of this thread.
You're right, his head is formed but he sinks into the water and merges with it. You seemed to have claimed he still keeps a physical form and simply merges part way with the water. He still turns into water when hit and there isn't much the Totsuka is capable of from there.

Suigetsu simply oozes away in water form, Totsuka has no targetm it has nothing to pierce. Forget the lake, as I said, Suigetsu can walk right up to Itachi water-less and tank a Totsuka head on.

Glad to give you a laugh. ^^
Confidence is good, I know all about that. However, theres not room to say "they are wrong, I am right".

Lets say your theory is true, and Itachi can't seal Suigetsu in the ocean. He walks onto dry land.

Not that he even needs to, as I said Genjutsu is a win since Suigetsu can't attack without getting hit by it. You can have all the knowledge in the world about an attack, but that doesn't mean you can do anything to stop it when your best reactions are getting footed by Karen and your fastest attacks all get knocked away like paper.

This is supposing your right, and somehow Suigetsu can maintain his form over that far of a mass of ocean without losing all of his chakra in the meantime, and then chooses to not attack at all in any way or even form himself into anything.

Just sitting ocean.
He walks on dry land....then what? He has no way to hurt Suigetsu and Itachi has to remain on the defensive to prevent from being killed. I wouldn't be surprised if Suigetsu decides to simply envelop Susano'o in the lake drowning him or killing him instantly.

Being on land makes literally no difference other than that Itachi is potentially safe from being hit from below.

TRcommander

04-08-2012, 08:11 PM

I was just about to log out and go to bed too.....well this will be my last response until tomorrow afternoon.

You're right, his head is formed but he sinks into the water and merges with it. You seemed to have claimed he still keeps a physical form and simply merges part way with the water. He still turns into water when hit and there isn't much the Totsuka is capable of from there.

No, I think it's water.....it just seems to be the central location for his chakra. I mean, it has to be somewhere because, like you said yourself, it would be ridiculous if he spread it out across an entire lake or something. So if his chakra is concentrated in a centralized location, that would be the best place to aim the sword.

Suigetsu simply oozes away in water form, Totsuka has no targetm it has nothing to pierce. Forget the lake, as I said, Suigetsu can walk right up to Itachi water-less and tank a Totsuka head on.

It seals the chakra. Again, water isn't intangible, and it is perfectly capable of being physically touched. I can touch water, you can touch water, the totsuka sword can touch water. And when the totsuka sword touches the water, the chakra in it will get sealed.

He walks on dry land....then what? He has no way to hurt Suigetsu and Itachi has to remain on the defensive to prevent from being killed. I wouldn't be surprised if Suigetsu decides to simply envelop Susano'o in the lake drowning him or killing him instantly.

Susanoo can tank any sword attacks Suigetsu uses, and the yata mirror protects against water attacks since they're all infused with chakra.

Being on land makes literally no difference other than that Itachi is potentially safe from being hit from below.

Considering that was basically the only way Suigetsu could win......yeah it kind of makes a difference.

Gaia

04-08-2012, 08:46 PM

I was just about to log out and go to bed too.....well this will be my last response until tomorrow afternoon.

No, I think it's water.....it just seems to be the central location for his chakra. I mean, it has to be somewhere because, like you said yourself, it would be ridiculous if he spread it out across an entire lake or something. So if his chakra is concentrated in a centralized location, that would be the best place to aim the sword. You just screwed yourself here,. This is the thing, he can't aim the sword at this spot because he doesn't know wherein the lake Suigetsu is. This was his problem with Kabuto as he spread his body out Itachi had literally no clue where he could possibly be. And this was on solid land.

It seals the chakra. Again, water isn't intangible, and it is perfectly capable of being physically touched. I can touch water, you can touch water, the totsuka sword can touch water. And when the totsuka sword touches the water, the chakra in it will get sealed.How does it seal Suigetsu's chakra if it isn't piercing Suigetsu? It will be piercing nothing at all, Suigetsu will be completely unharmed from the Totsuka a few odd feet away.

Susanoo can tank any sword attacks Suigetsu uses, and the yata mirror protects against water attacks since they're all infused with chakra.Not if he's enveloped, it's fact Susano'o's weakness is under it and if Itachi is completely surrounded by Suigetsu's water he's ;);););););).

Considering that was basically the only way Suigetsu could win......yeah it kind of makes a difference.
I told you the difference, there is no difference in Suigetsu's ability to win. There is however, a difference in Itachi's ability to win, as it doesn't matter whether he's on land or in the water; none of his attacks are capable of hurting Suigetsu.

Frost ninja

04-08-2012, 09:22 PM

Ultimate combatant

04-09-2012, 04:23 AM

Being on land makes literally no difference other than that Itachi is potentially safe from being hit from below.

Well, if by slim chance Itachi actually was in a danger, it would be because Suigetsu could attack from bellow. On a ground, however, Suigetsu`s only chance (which even on a lake is almost non-existent) of winning is completely gone!!! :D

Shikamaru Nara

04-09-2012, 05:16 AM

Genjutsu. `:P

Gaia

04-09-2012, 07:07 AM

As I said, wheres those reaction feats?
Otherwise its fair to say he can't react to the swing and move in the water. Soon as he masses at all he gets sucked in. Or as soon as the fight starts, for that matter.
I'll get them in a bit when I get a chance to post today.
Genjutsu. `:P
Useless due to full knowledge.

Ultimate combatant

04-09-2012, 07:20 AM

I'll get them in a bit when I get a chance to post today.

Useless due to full knowledge.

Full knowledge doesn`t mean immunity. If you know your opponent is best Genjutsu user still doesn`t mean you won`t get caught in Genjutsu!!! :D

Frost ninja

04-09-2012, 07:27 AM

Lets hope those reactions are good, otherwise its genjutsu off the bat and a game at that.

TRcommander

04-09-2012, 11:55 AM

You just screwed yourself here,. This is the thing, he can't aim the sword at this spot because he doesn't know wherein the lake Suigetsu is.

Except that part where whenever Suigetsu uses the hydrification technique, his central location is still clearly visible.

This was his problem with Kabuto as he spread his body out Itachi had literally no clue where he could possibly be. And this was on solid land.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. Chapter?

How does it seal Suigetsu's chakra if it isn't piercing Suigetsu? It will be piercing nothing at all, Suigetsu will be completely unharmed from the Totsuka a few odd feet away.

How is it not piercing anything? Think about it.....the water itself is Suigetsu's body when he uses the technique. All it has to do is hit the water that Suigetsu is a part of.

Not if he's enveloped, it's fact Susano'o's weakness is under it and if Itachi is completely surrounded by Suigetsu's water he's ;);););););).

But he'll be on dry land.

I told you the difference, there is no difference in Suigetsu's ability to win. There is however, a difference in Itachi's ability to win, as it doesn't matter whether he's on land or in the water; none of his attacks are capable of hurting Suigetsu.

All you've told me so far is that water is completely intangible and knowledge = immunity. But neither are true.

Gaia

04-09-2012, 12:25 PM

Full knowledge doesn`t mean immunity. If you know your opponent is best Genjutsu user still doesn`t mean you won`t get caught in Genjutsu!!! :D
He knows his opponent is a good genjutsu user true. He also knows each and every detail of each and every jutsu in Itachi's possession such as Tsukuyomi and that it requires eye contact. Suigetsu does not do that thing. He avoids genjutsu.
Lets hope those reactions are good, otherwise its genjutsu off the bat and a game at that.
How does not having good reactions have anything to do with being put in a genjutsu that relies on looking into someone's eyes?
Except that part where whenever Suigetsu uses the hydrification technique, his central location is still clearly visible.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. Chapter?

How is it not piercing anything? Think about it.....the water itself is Suigetsu's body when he uses the technique. All it has to do is hit the water that Suigetsu is a part of.

But he'll be on dry land.

All you've told me so far is that water is completely intangible and knowledge = immunity. But neither are true.
Which is why I provided you with the scan to prove you wrong. How when I prove this things wrong do you keep dragging on acting like it is not true? A shame I can't post the page followed by a giant red circle at what I want you to look at and what it is that's incorrect about your post.

The last chapter in which Kabuto liquified.

He hits the water, it does nothing, and Suigetsu liquifies and moves away, simple.

I actually agreed with you and said knowledge is not immunity. However knowledge of genjutsu and the simple action of avoiding someone's eyes in knowledge does equal immunity. Please, I've given enough in dealing with this so tell me how avoiding genjutsu will be oh-so difficult other than "Well he has to fight without looking in his eyes". Not too hard.

Frost Ninja I will get the'feats if I actually have time to read through chapters in a bit.. only to get them ignored by various one-liners in the near future, but I digress.

TRcommander

04-09-2012, 12:40 PM

ow does not having good reactions have anything to do with being put in a genjutsu that relies on looking into someone's eyes?

Suigetsu also has to avoid looking at Itachi's fingers too.

Which is why I provided you with the scan to prove you wrong. How when I prove this things wrong do you keep dragging on acting like it is not true? A shame I can't post the page followed by a giant red circle at what I want you to look at and what it is that's incorrect about your post.

Except you didn't provide a scan that proved me wrong. When Suigetsu uses the hydrification technique, you can clearly make out at least part of his body every time. And I agree that debating is much easier when we're allowed to post scans.

The last chapter in which Kabuto liquified.

Maybe you should reread the last few chapters. Only Kabuto's insides liquify to protect him from the shock waves from the flash bang jutsu. His body never loses its shape. The reason Itachi couldn't see him was the blinding light. His body never "spread out."

He hits the water, it does nothing, and Suigetsu liquifies and moves away, simple.

No, it seals Suigetsu since his body is the water and it has all of his chakra.

I actually agreed with you and said knowledge is not immunity. However knowledge of genjutsu and the simple action of avoiding someone's eyes in knowledge does equal immunity. Please, I've given enough in dealing with this so tell me how avoiding genjutsu will be oh-so difficult other than "Well he has to fight without looking in his eyes". Not too hard.

I disagree.....I don't think you've given a single way Suigetsu could effectively attack Itachi while avoiding his eyes and fingers.

Gaia

04-10-2012, 12:59 PM

Suigetsu also has to avoid looking at Itachi's fingers too. It shouldn't be too hard; Itachi is unable to do anything to Suigetsu anyway so he has nothing to worry about, looking at just his feet should work perfectly fine.

Except you didn't provide a scan that proved me wrong. When Suigetsu uses the hydrification technique, you can clearly make out at least part of his body every time. And I agree that debating is much easier when we're allowed to post scans.Kabuto proved this wrong, and this is the point of the technique. Suigetsu liquified all but the top 3 inches of his head, Kabuto liquified his entire body and I can't recall how Mangetsu or the Mizukage did. It shouldn't matter either way, though.

Maybe you should reread the last few chapters. Only Kabuto's insides liquify to protect him from the shock waves from the flash bang jutsu. His body never loses its shape. The reason Itachi couldn't see him was the blinding light. His body never "spread out."Well I guess I'll get the page number since it's a bit easier than sifting through the other 500 to find said 'reaction feats' or what have you. Reminding Frost Ninja I will get them eventually though in the meantime, I just don't recall where to start looking or don't feel like taking the time to look through the chapters.

Okay, got it. Page 11 in chapter 579. And haha, keep in mind it did take quite a bit of time for me to find just that otherwise I'd jump to giving you all more pages; I'm pretty bad with finding these sort of things.

No, it seals Suigetsu since his body is the water and it has all of his chakra.

I disagree.....I don't think you've given a single way Suigetsu could effectively attack Itachi while avoiding his eyes and fingers.
But he can liquify away and never be in contact with Totsuka, ever.

By swinging sword, covering Itachi in water, utilizing water gun, using any Suiton Suigetsu most likely has, etc. Besides, let's keep in mind here Itachi never jumps to Susano'o from the start of a match, if he gets taken out quite early on by underestimating Suigetsu so that he can pull off a water gun fast enough then so be it.

You all need to realize Itachi in no way has full knowledge, in fact he has likely little to no knowledge on Suigetsu of all people. He's going to try all of his techniques on Suigetsu before he realizes he has nothing to hurt Suigetsu with. He isn't going to not use any attack and somehow use his incredible intelligence to come to the conclusion that Suigetsu can't be hurt by Itachi in any way. He's going to use Amaterasu, he's going to try using a fireball jutsu, he's going to try his Suiton technique, he's going to actually attempt in fighting. Only to realize it will all be useless...but still. Itachi does not have instant knowledge, he will eventually gradually figure it out through battle.

TRcommander

04-10-2012, 01:35 PM

Okay, got it. Page 11 in chapter 579. And haha, keep in mind it did take quite a bit of time for me to find just that otherwise I'd jump to giving you all more pages; I'm pretty bad with finding these sort of things.

Ah, I actually missed that.

By swinging sword,

Itachi dodges or simply tanks it with susanoo

covering Itachi in water,

Itachi isn't standing still.

utilizing water gun

You still haven't shown me Suigetsu forming a water bullet. Besides, Itachi would dodge or tank it with susanoo.

using any Suiton Suigetsu most likely has

And what techniques are those exactly? Suigetsu hasn't really shown much of anything.

Besides, let's keep in mind here Itachi never jumps to Susano'o from the start of a match, if he gets taken out quite early on by underestimating Suigetsu so that he can pull off a water gun fast enough then so be it.

Proof Suigetsu can form a water bullet, let alone shoot it fast enough for Itachi to not dodge or block?

You all need to realize Itachi in no way has full knowledge, in fact he has likely little to no knowledge on Suigetsu of all people. He's going to try all of his techniques on Suigetsu before he realizes he has nothing to hurt Suigetsu with. He isn't going to not use any attack and somehow use his incredible intelligence to come to the conclusion that Suigetsu can't be hurt by Itachi in any way. He's going to use Amaterasu, he's going to try using a fireball jutsu, he's going to try his Suiton technique, he's going to actually attempt in fighting. Only to realize it will all be useless...but still. Itachi does not have instant knowledge, he will eventually gradually figure it out through battle.

As soon as Suigetsu merges with the water, Itachi is going to know he's screwed if he stays on the water. We're talking about the guy that figured out how to deal with chibaku tensei as he was already being pulled into it.

Really, here's a thought. Suigetsu wastes all of his energy/chakra fighting Itachi's crow clones, or his exploding clones for that matter. Then Itachi just finishes him off.

Frost ninja

04-10-2012, 02:25 PM

If you know you have to avoid a bullet, can you do it fast enough?

Likewise, if he lacks reactions all it takes is one glance. Itachi can just run up and force a look if Suigetsu can't react and liquify in time.

Yellow Flash

04-10-2012, 02:39 PM

Full knowledge gives you nothing but the, you guessed it, knowledge of what the person uses. When you go up against a high tier opponent like Itachi, it's difficult to counter when they're as good at something like Itachi is at genjutsu.

Naruto went into the fight with Itachi with not only knowledge, but first hand experience of Itachi's genjutsu, and yet he was still ensnared in Itachi's genjutsu. And I don't want to hear that Naruto is an idiot, because in battle he's considered a genius.

Itachi is known to toy with his victims with a wide range of genjutsu; he's an expert in genjutsu. If he really so wishes he could end it within mere seconds with a high level genjutsu. Things like Tsukuyomi aren't really necessary, but can be implemented if you want to make this overkill.

Finger genjutsu, GG.

Not to mention his overwhelming katons and suitons, Amaterasu and Susano'o. He's also potent in CQC, being able to outmatch even Sasuke, who's regarded as a top tier taijutsu user.

Gaia

04-10-2012, 04:39 PM

Ah, I actually missed that.

Itachi dodges or simply tanks it with susanoo

Itachi isn't standing still.

You still haven't shown me Suigetsu forming a water bullet. Besides, Itachi would dodge or tank it with susanoo.

And what techniques are those exactly? Suigetsu hasn't really shown much of anything.

Proof Suigetsu can form a water bullet, let alone shoot it fast enough for Itachi to not dodge or block?

As soon as Suigetsu merges with the water, Itachi is going to know he's screwed if he stays on the water. We're talking about the guy that figured out how to deal with chibaku tensei as he was already being pulled into it.

Really, here's a thought. Suigetsu wastes all of his energy/chakra fighting Itachi's crow clones, or his exploding clones for that matter. Then Itachi just finishes him off.
Standing still does not equal the ability to completely and effortlessly avoid being enveloped by the lake that follows Suigetsu's every move.

I told you when he met Sasuke he threatened him with water gun; a Hozuki user later in the manga notes it as a technique and uses it as the same form, I guess Suigetsu doesn't know it and was just faking it because he wants to be cool like his big bro.

If you want to get technical, then please show me any point in the manga where Susano'o pierced a "logia" and sealed them and I'll gladly, gladly withdraw my argument of it being able to do anything. However, I like how after this you've dropped Itachi being able to do anything at all to Suigetsu after the whole, Kabuto deal.

Suigetsu waste his chakra trying to kill Itachi who's wasting his chakra on the other side of the story? As if, Suigetsu knows nothing Itachi has will affect him so he can sit back and relax while Itachi tries to kill him. Then he gets serious.
If you know you have to avoid a bullet, can you do it fast enough?

Likewise, if he lacks reactions all it takes is one glance. Itachi can just run up and force a look if Suigetsu can't react and liquify in time.
When has Itachi ever done this? I'm near confident you're bullshitting at this point and are just pulling things randomly out of your ass. He's going to run up to Suigetsu and stick his hand in his face so he falls under his finger genjutsu? What?
Full knowledge gives you nothing but the, you guessed it, knowledge of what the person uses. When you go up against a high tier opponent like Itachi, it's difficult to counter when they're as good at something like Itachi is at genjutsu.Not when all you have to do is avoid looking at their eyes or hands, with the beforehand knowledge they can do literally nothing to hurt you, other than genjutsu, and only assuming it has a mind control esque effect in order to make Suigetsu cancel the technique so Itachi can hurt him.
Naruto went into the fight with Itachi with not only knowledge, but first hand experience of Itachi's genjutsu, and yet he was still ensnared in Itachi's genjutsu. And I don't want to hear that Naruto is an idiot, because in battle he's considered a genius.You're forgetting something, Naruto didn't have full knowledge and wasn't in a serious, to-kill battle situation. It's strange how he, who had at least the majority of the knowledge, against Edo Tensei Itachi, didn't fall under any of his genjutsu. Suigetsu has full, 100% knowledge on everything in Itachi's arsenal. Genjutsu isn't doing crap.

Itachi is known to toy with his victims with a wide range of genjutsu; he's an expert in genjutsu. If he really so wishes he could end it within mere seconds with a high level genjutsu. Things like Tsukuyomi aren't really necessary, but can be implemented if you want to make this overkill.

Finger genjutsu, GG.Again, these are both useless due to full knowledge.

Not to mention his overwhelming katons and suitons, Amaterasu and Susano'o. He's also potent in CQC, being able to outmatch even Sasuke, who's regarded as a top tier taijutsu user.Katons will do literally nothing to Suigetsu's water body, he sucks those up like food. You really think shooting fireballs at a lake will kill Suigetsu? First person to bring up this argument and honestly I'm fairly dumb at the thought of it. And please tell me when Itachi has spammed his Katon in the way to make them so "overwhelming". If he tries all of this crap, which believe me I'm sure he will, he's going to be extremely low on chakra by the time he realizes, "Wait, I didn't hurt him at all!"

You really think Suiton jutsu will hurt Suigetsu's water body? Again you've got to be one of the first people to bring this kind of thing up. Suiton will literally, and literally this time, go through Suigetsu who's made of water himself. Suiton are probably less effective than Katon..which basically in comparison, Katon and Suiton are like throwing a bunch of ninjutsu into Pain's absorbing path to Suigetsu.

Suigetsu easily liquifies, note liquifies and, being made of water easily can tank Amaterasu...and again, the Totsuka and Susano'o are useless.

CQC? You're serious about CQC? All of Itachi's slashes and stabs at Suigetsu will go through him, again this is useless. But out of curiousity; when was Sasuke considered top tier at taijutsu?

TRcommander

04-10-2012, 05:10 PM

Standing still does not equal the ability to completely and effortlessly avoid being enveloped by the lake that follows Suigetsu's every move.

I'm sorry, but could you please direct me to where Suigetsu controls an entire lake? The amount of water he used against B was nowhere near that amount.

I told you when he met Sasuke he threatened him with water gun; a Hozuki user later in the manga notes it as a technique and uses it as the same form, I guess Suigetsu doesn't know it and was just faking it because he wants to be cool like his big bro.

I told you that he didn't actually use the technique so we don't know how well he could possibly use it.

If you want to get technical, then please show me any point in the manga where Susano'o pierced a "logia" and sealed them and I'll gladly, gladly withdraw my argument of it being able to do anything.

And you show me where it was stated that the sword had to touch flesh and bones to seal the person. As a matter fact, as he was being sucked in, Orochimaru even stated that it seals "anyone and anything." Just because Suigetu's body is made out of water doesn't make him somehow immune to a spirit sword.

Suigetsu waste his chakra trying to kill Itachi who's wasting his chakra on the other side of the story? As if, Suigetsu knows nothing Itachi has will affect him so he can sit back and relax while Itachi tries to kill him. Then he gets serious.

Oh clearly making some crow clones as a distraction will use up so much of Itachi's chakra. And don't forget that every single one of his clones is also capable of using genjutsu.

However, I like how after this you've dropped Itachi being able to do anything at all to Suigetsu after the whole, Kabuto deal.

At this point I find it highly unlikely that you'll ever be convinced that the totsuka sword will seal Suigetsu despite there being no evidence that it wouldn't. So I'm throwing out some of Itachi's other options because, when it comes right down to it, the totsuka sword is merely the easiest way for Itachi to win, not the only.

When has Itachi ever done this? I'm near confident you're bullshitting at this point and are just pulling things randomly out of your ass. He's going to run up to Suigetsu and stick his hand in his face so he falls under his finger genjutsu? What?

It's called a speed blitz. Itachi is much faster than Suigetsu is and, especially if he uses clones, could easily appear right in front of Suigetsu and put him in genjutsu before he could react.

Frost ninja

04-10-2012, 05:30 PM

It's called a speed blitz. Itachi is much faster than Suigetsu is and, especially if he uses clones, could easily appear right in front of Suigetsu and put him in genjutsu before he could react.

He beat me to it.

Gaia

04-10-2012, 05:50 PM

I'm sorry, but could you please direct me to where Suigetsu controls an entire lake? The amount of water he used against B was nowhere near that amount.
So Itachi is able to just swim out of the water Suigetsu has with no problem while Suigetsu has full mobility? Not buying it.

I told you that he didn't actually use the technique so we don't know how well he could possibly use it.

And you show me where it was stated that the sword had to touch flesh and bones to seal the person. As a matter fact, as he was being sucked in, Orochimaru even stated that it seals "anyone and anything." Just because Suigetu's body is made out of water doesn't make him somehow immune to a spirit sword.It is unable to, it has to pierce its target to seal it. It can't pierce Suigetsu, he doesn't have a body susceptible to physical attacks. Show me a link, don't rely on assumptions.

Oh clearly making some crow clones as a distraction will use up so much of Itachi's chakra. And don't forget that every single one of his clones is also capable of using genjutsu.Indeed it will, because he continues to do this along with an assortment of other attacks in which are all useless.

At this point I find it highly unlikely that you'll ever be convinced that the totsuka sword will seal Suigetsu despite there being no evidence that it wouldn't. So I'm throwing out some of Itachi's other options because, when it comes right down to it, the totsuka sword is merely the easiest way for Itachi to win, not the only."No evidence it wouldn't"? I don't think you realize how heavily fallacious that is. You're the one who's out to prove that it has the capability to seal him, the evidence is lacking that it is able to seal him, it's only ever sealed someone upon piercing them. It can't pierce Suigetsu.

Very well, what are these "other ways", because Suigetsu has full knowledge of all genjutsu and the ability to not look into someone's eyes or hands if it costs him his life, and everything else is useless.

It's called a speed blitz. Itachi is much faster than Suigetsu is and, especially if he uses clones, could easily appear right in front of Suigetsu and put him in genjutsu before he could react.He's going to appear in front of Suigetsu and force him to look in his eyes or at his hand before Suigetsu can react? The ;);););)? Please show me where his speed is capable of doing this and where he ever ever ever tried to blitz and force the opponent to look at his eyes or hand knowing they're unaffected. Just going to be honest here, this is retarded.

Frost ninja

04-10-2012, 06:17 PM

He's going to appear in front of Suigetsu and force him to look in his eyes or at his hand before Suigetsu can react? The ;);););)? Please show me where his speed is capable of doing this and where he ever ever ever tried to blitz and force the opponent to look at his eyes or hand knowing they're unaffected. Just going to be honest here, this is retarded.

Yes.
Show me his reactions, otherwise him blitzing PTS sasuke is just fine.
Also he isn't unaffected. Where do you figure he is immune to genjutsu?

I know what a bullet is and it comes out of a gun.
Doesn't mean I can dodge it.

Gaia

04-10-2012, 06:26 PM

Yes.
Show me his reactions, otherwise him blitzing PTS sasuke is just fine.
Also he isn't unaffected. Where do you figure he is immune to genjutsu?

I know what a bullet is and it comes out of a gun.
Doesn't mean I can dodge it.
Good thing that you do know that if you avoid looking into someone's eyes then you won't get shot. Very simple equation here.

Frost ninja

04-10-2012, 06:28 PM

Have fun avoiding it. Also He doesn't need his eyes to genjutsu you.
Wheres those reaction feats?

Gaia

04-10-2012, 07:03 PM

In the near 500 chapters of Naruto I'll have to look through. Suigetsu should have no problem "having fun" considering Itachi has nothing else to hurt him other than which requires not to look at his eyes or hand. Simple simple stuff.

Frost ninja

04-10-2012, 07:36 PM

Too bad you don't have any reaction feats.

Itachi tosuka's him before he can liquify.

TRcommander

04-10-2012, 07:38 PM

So Itachi is able to just swim out of the water Suigetsu has with no problem while Suigetsu has full mobility? Not buying it.

Any particular reason he can't just walk? I think it's been long established that ninjas don't need to swim.

It is unable to, it has to pierce its target to seal it. It can't pierce Suigetsu, he doesn't have a body susceptible to physical attacks. Show me a link, don't rely on assumptions.

It's not susceptible to physical damage. Getting sealed doesn't cause physical damage.

Indeed it will, because he continues to do this along with an assortment of other attacks in which are all useless. "No evidence it wouldn't"? I don't think you realize how heavily fallacious that is. You're the one who's out to prove that it has the capability to seal him, the evidence is lacking that it is able to seal him, it's only ever sealed someone upon piercing them. It can't pierce Suigetsu.

Genjutsu isn't useless. Neither is the totsuka sword, but there's obviously no way I can convince you of that.

Very well, what are these "other ways", because Suigetsu has full knowledge of all genjutsu and the ability to not look into someone's eyes or hands if it costs him his life, and everything else is useless.
He's going to appear in front of Suigetsu and force him to look in his eyes or at his hand before Suigetsu can react? The ;);););)? Please show me where his speed is capable of doing this and where he ever ever ever tried to blitz and force the opponent to look at his eyes or hand knowing they're unaffected. Just going to be honest here, this is retarded.

Itachi blitzed B using a crow clone and put him in a genjutsu that the Eight-Tails had to break him out of. This is the same B that casually reacted to Suigetsu and basically didn't even consider him a threat.

MinatoXNaruto

04-10-2012, 08:03 PM

I can't believe this is still going on. Suigetsu loses, even if Itachi had no eyes, arms or legs.

Jk, but I just can't see Suigetsu winning here

JLI2infinity

04-11-2012, 10:51 PM

megabbaut

04-12-2012, 06:25 AM

Don't you guys have something called spite threads on Viz forums LOL.

This is a stomp, Akatsuki burns Suigetsu...it's fire that burns through ANYTHING including fire and water.

Then there's the whole Suigetsu can't break genjutsu thing.

Then there's the whole even if Suigetsu could do both those things Tobi pwned his swordsmanship with one hand, Kisame was parrying Suigetsu's attacks effortlessly, and Bee stomped Juugo and Suigetsu without breaking a sweat.

If Bee's swordsmanship >>>>>> Suigetsu's swordsmanship
and Itachi parried Bee's attacks then doesn't that mean

Itachi >>>> Suigetsu even in kenjutsu

That means even if by some miracle Itachi's attacks don't work Suigetsu still won't be able to hurt him so even if Itachi can't win Suigetsu can't lose.

/thread
Yeah, and this thread is not one of them.

Because Zetsu says Amaterasu can burn through anything then it can? Amaterasu isn't burning through an entire lake (there's a lake in this setting) , it will do literally nothing to Suigetsu's water form and high level Suitions. It couldn't even do anything to Gaara's sand.

He doesn't have to break through genjutsu, because he won't be caught in a genjutsu in the first place. He has knowledge of Tsukuyomi, so all he has to do is not look into his eyes until he closes the eye attempting genjutsu.

When did Tobi even fight Suigetsu? And...effortlessly? Dude they were just sparring and killing time, it's not like they were serious or bloodlusted or anything. For Killer Bee, all he did was block his sword with his arm, and take it from him. Itachi doesn't have nearly the same physical strength as Bee does, so that's kinda meaningless.

The fact still remains that there's nothing Itachi can hurt Suigetsu with, and if he decides to use Susanoo then he goes under it and cuts Itachi's head off. GG

Kakashi11

04-12-2012, 06:31 AM

megabbaut

04-12-2012, 06:41 AM

lol the Akatsuki is a fire that burns through anything

this thread is finished it has already been decided and now people are bringing up old arguments
If you mean Amaterasu, that's already been countered.

If anyone is bringing up old arguments, it's you. And yes, it's been decided already that Suigetsu wins...pages ago.

Kakashi11

04-12-2012, 06:46 AM

If you mean Amaterasu, that's already been countered.

If anyone is bringing up old arguments, it's you. And yes, it's been decided already that Suigetsu wins...pages ago.

you misunderstand
i was sayin that suigetsu won and that is had been decided, if you look back i already admitted that

and when i said lol Akatsuki, it is because i was quotin someone who said that the Akatsuki was a jutsu

TRcommander

04-12-2012, 07:04 AM

If you mean Amaterasu, that's already been countered.

If anyone is bringing up old arguments, it's you. And yes, it's been decided already that Suigetsu wins...pages ago.

If by decided you mean, you just stated Suigetsu wins without actually being able to counter any of the points made, then yes. Repost for relevance:

Itachi blitzed B using a crow clone and put him in a genjutsu that the Eight-Tails had to break him out of. This is the same B that casually reacted to Suigetsu and basically didn't even consider him a threat.

Keeping in mind that B did in fact know not to look into Itachi's eyes.

Kakashi11

04-12-2012, 07:25 AM

MinatoXNaruto

04-12-2012, 07:44 AM

The fact still remains that there's nothing Itachi can hurt Suigetsu with, and if he decides to use Susanoo then he goes under it and cuts Itachi's head off. GG
LOL like Itachi wouldn't be able to react to Suigetsu. The minute he tries to cut Itachi, Amaterasu!! GG

Kakashi11

04-12-2012, 07:46 AM

LOL like Itachi wouldn't be able to react to Suigetsu. The minute he tries to cut Itachi, Amaterasu!! GG

and then suigetsu liquifies and then kill itachi
amaterasu cannot defeat suigetsu or water even if it is proclaimed to burn forever by zetsu

MinatoXNaruto

04-12-2012, 07:52 AM

and then suigetsu liquifies and then kill itachi
amaterasu cannot defeat suigetsu or water even if it is proclaimed to burn forever by zetsu
What reaction feats does Suigetsu have to avoid a point blank Amaterasu??

megabbaut

04-12-2012, 07:54 AM

If by decided you mean, you just stated Suigetsu wins without actually being able to counter any of the points made, then yes. Repost for relevance:

Keeping in mind that B did in fact know not to look into Itachi's eyes.
I've countered plenty of points, bro. First of all, he didn't blitz him and second of all, he didn't know not to look into Itachi's eyes until Naruto told him about Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi.

LOL like Itachi wouldn't be able to react to Suigetsu. The minute he tries to cut Itachi, Amaterasu!! GG
Right because he's totally going to expect Suigetsu to appear until him right? Oh right, he won't. He'll be blindsided and before he notices Suigetsu, BOOM, off goes his head. Either that or Suigetsu drowns him.

What reaction feats does Suigetsu have to avoid a point blank Amaterasu??
He doesn't have to react to it, because it will do absolutely nothing to him.

MinatoXNaruto

04-12-2012, 08:00 AM

I've countered plenty of points, bro. First of all, he didn't blitz him and second of all, he didn't know not to look into Itachi's eyes until Naruto told him about Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi.

Right because he's totally going to expect Suigetsu to appear until him right? Oh right, he won't. He'll be blindsided and before he notices Suigetsu, BOOM, off goes his head. Either that or Suigetsu drowns him.

He doesn't have to react to it, because it will do absolutely nothing to him.
How would Itachi not notice a big ass executioner blade getting swung at him?? Also Itachi can see chakra with his sharingan, so he will Suigetsu moving under him, or maybe not. Suigetsu might be able to drown him, but Itachi will definitely react to it if Suigetsu tries to cut his head off

Kakashi11

04-12-2012, 08:00 AM

What reaction feats does Suigetsu have to avoid a point blank Amaterasu??

as megabaut
says it cannot do anythin to him as he is made of water when he liquifies

and amaterasu has been shown to be very weak, there is a bunch of examples on pages at the beginning of the thread

edit- im really sorry Megabbaut i read youre name wrong

megabbaut

04-12-2012, 08:03 AM

How would Itachi not notice a big ass executioner blade getting swung at him?? Also Itachi can see chakra with his sharingan, so he will Suigetsu moving under him, or maybe not. Suigetsu might be able to drown him, but Itachi will definitely react to it if Suigetsu tries to cut his head off
Because it will be under his feet and he doesn't have enough time to both react and look down to notice before his head comes off or he drowns. The chakra would be all over the water and Itachi won't know which section of the water is Suigetsu or where Suigetsu will pop up. And Sharingan definitely isn't saving him from being drowned.

Uchiha Sora

04-12-2012, 08:39 AM

I'm still confused as to why Itachi would stay on a lake, seeing huge masses of chakra under him. And if Suigetsu hasn't spread that much chakra around, Itachi would see Suigetsu coming at him and simply dodge

Thats if Suigetsu really does even get that far and isn't blitzed...or genjutsu'd from the start. There's no need for Suigetsu to look at his finger as stated on Page 4 of Chapter 366. Knowledge hasn't helped anyone against Itachi's genjutsu before. Suigetsu's no different. Naruto got caught in some other random genjutsu even without looking at his eyes or fingers. Not that he needed to look at his finger anyways

Suigetsu doesn't even know any offensive water jutsu besides his demon fish. Or really any mass control of water without it already having merged with it already. But when he uses the fish, you can clearly see where his body is and it would be easy for Itachi to Totsuka him.

Kakashi11

04-12-2012, 08:43 AM

I'm still confused as to why Itachi would stay on a lake, seeing huge masses of chakra under him. And if he hasn't spread that much chakra around, Itachi would see Suigetsu coming at him and simply dodge

Thats if Suigetsu really does even get that far and isn't blitzed...or genjutsu'd from the start. Knowledge hasn't helped anyone against Itachi's genjutsu before. Suigetsu's no different.

Suigetsu doesn't even know any offensive water jutsu besides his demon fish. Or really any mass control of water without it already having merged with it already. But when he uses the fish, you can clearly see where his body is and it would be easy for Itachi to Totsuka him.

suigetsu is not gonna get blitzed under water

kabuto resisted genjutsu didnt he

even if he can see him does not mean he can stop him

he does not need water jutsus really he just needs to attack Itachi, dodge totsuki blade and then wait for Itachi's chakra to run out or his eye to be covered in blood

Uchiha Sora

04-12-2012, 09:00 AM

suigetsu is not gonna get blitzed under water

kabuto resisted genjutsu didnt he

even if he can see him does not mean he can stop him

he does not need water jutsus really he just needs to attack Itachi, dodge totsuki blade and then wait for Itachi's chakra to run out or his eye to be covered in blood

At the beginning of the fight before Suigetsu even goes underwater. Finger genjutsu. GG. Nothing suigetsu can do about it, really. Even underwater, he can still be finger genjutsu'd. As long as Itachi can still see where he is. And he should have ample time for that in the beginning of the fight. Then he also has his alternate genjutsu he used on Naruto, after Naruto clearly stated that he knew about his finger genjutsu, and knew to avoid eye contact. So apparently he has other various genjutsu that don't require eye contact at all.

:lol: Forgot about Kabs. Well he had snakes to break him out, as Sasuke said.
And Itachi seems to always have an alternative genjutsu to fit the situation. In Kabuto's case it would be Izanami, but we haven't seen it yet so thats irrelevant here.

Dodge the Totsuka Blade? With what feats? It blitzed Orochimaru, Prime Nagato... Suigetsu's not dodgin it.

TRcommander

04-12-2012, 09:06 AM

At the beginning of the fight before Suigetsu even goes underwater. Finger genjutsu. GG. Nothing suigetsu can do about it, really. Even underwater, he can still be finger genjutsu'd. As long as Itachi can still see where he is. And he should have ample time for that in the beginning of the fight.

:lol: Forgot about Kabs. Well he had snakes to break him out, as Sasuke said.
And Itachi seems to always have an alternative genjutsu. In Kabuto's case it would be Izanami, but we haven't seen it yet so thats irrelevant here.

Dodge the Totsuka Blade? With what feats? It blitzed Orochimaru, Prime Nagato... Suigetsu's not dodgin it.

Oh my gosh, thank you. Some people here seem to be under the delusion that Suigetsu is starting this fight under water and is somehow fast enough to not get instantly put into genjutsu. Suigetsu is a snail compared to Itachi......his one speed feat is chapter 410 page 3......where B doesn't even bother uncrossing his arms until Suigetsu is literally right in his face, and then B casually blocked and disarmed him because the guy's so slow. I mean, compared to the average ninja, Suigetsu might have decent speed, but against people like Itachi? Not even close.

Shikamaru Nara

04-12-2012, 10:26 AM

Genjutsu, like I said.

Someone please tell me how Suigetsu avoids genjutsu?
I don't believe I got a clear answer last time.

'Knowledge' is quite a broad answer.

megabbaut

04-12-2012, 11:08 AM

Oh my gosh, thank you. Some people here seem to be under the delusion that Suigetsu is starting this fight under water and is somehow fast enough to not get instantly put into genjutsu. Suigetsu is a snail compared to Itachi......his one speed feat is chapter 410 page 3......where B doesn't even bother uncrossing his arms until Suigetsu is literally right in his face, and then B casually blocked and disarmed him because the guy's so slow. I mean, compared to the average ninja, Suigetsu might have decent speed, but against people like Itachi? Not even close.
He doesn't have to be underwater to get under Susanoo. He just transforms into a puddle, and once Itachi looks around wondering where he went, Suigetsu goes inside Susanoo and chops off Itachi's head. Suigetsu is a snail compared to Itachi? Suigetsu was fast enough to be able to intercept attacks from both the Raikage and Killer Bee, as well as keep up with Darui until he got hit by Raiton. That's more impressive than what Itachi has ever shown in terms of speed.

Good luck hitting tiny individual droplets while someone's trying to cut your head off, and yes that is why the fight is stacked against Itachi's favor in the first place.

Genjutsu, like I said.

Someone please tell me how Suigetsu avoids genjutsu?
I don't believe I got a clear answer last time.

'Knowledge' is quite a broad answer.
What part of "don't look at Itachi's eyes or fingers" eludes you? If that much is broad to you, then you need help. No offense btw.

Uchiha Sora

04-12-2012, 11:13 AM

What part of "don't look at Itachi's eyes or fingers" eludes you? If that much is broad to you, then you need help. No offense btw. WHo said you need to look at his fingers? Naruto confirmed that you don't need to look at his fingers. CHapter 366 page 4

Itachi also has genjutsu that don't require eye contact OR pointing fingers. Naruto was caught in another genjutsu without eye contact OR pointing his finger.

megabbaut

04-12-2012, 11:15 AM

WHo said you need to look at his fingers?

Itachi also has genjutsu that don't require eye contact OR pointing fingers
And what genjutsu is that?

Uchiha Sora

04-12-2012, 11:16 AM

Don't know. Some random crow jutsu that Naruto got caught in after Naruto tried to avoid eye contact and the magic finger.

Ultimate combatant

04-12-2012, 11:38 AM

I don`t know when it was decided that Suigetsu wins this one, but either way I oppose that statement, if nothing else, because I feel my arguments (and arguments of some other members) weren`t countered.

I assume many of you won`t remember what I said, so I`ll make it short:

Itachi has Genjutsu which cannot be countered by knowledge alone.

Itachi has speed which is way above speed level of Suigetsu.

Itachi can use Amaterasu. Itachi only has to create it. After it is created, it will burn as long as it needs to burn, be it a tree or a lake. It will spread like any fire, but that won`t drain Itachi`s Chakra (after it is created, of course).

Totsuka sword if it touches Suigetsu, he`s done.

Itachi has numerous other techniques which alone, should make it quite a hard battle for Suigetsu.

Itachi is more intelligent and better skilled.

Itachi could just go to land, if by some chance he had any doubts whether he could win!!! :D

Uchiha Sora

04-12-2012, 12:00 PM

Suigetsu was fast enough to be able to intercept attacks from both the Raikage and Killer Bee, as well as keep up with Darui until he got hit by Raiton. That's more impressive than what Itachi has ever shown in terms of speed.
Well. Considering they were just standing there and attacking, and we don't know when exactly Suigetsu started running in, thats not a very good feat.

How about Itachi? Almost blitzing Bee twice, and making bee look like a maggot in general. Dodging Bee's seven swords dance, which Suigetsu said himself he couldn't read at all. Casually reacting to a RM Naruto blitz... On top of that, he's a genius. He figured out how to destroy CT while being pulled into it. Your reaaaally underestimating Itachi. He's the most all around ninja in the entire manga.

With his intelligence, I don't see why he'd stay on the lake,seeing masses of Suigetsu's chakra under him. In which case it would end in a draw. Or Itachi would genjutsu him while Suigetsu guard is down.

Oh wait, I forgot. Suigetsu has no counter for finger genjutsu off the bat. :lol:

TRcommander

04-12-2012, 12:07 PM

megabbaut

04-12-2012, 12:15 PM

Well. Considering they were just standing there and attacking, and we don't know when exactly Suigetsu started running in, thats not a very good feat.

How about Itachi? Almost blitzing Bee twice, and making bee look like a maggot in general. Dodging Bee's seven swords dance, which Suigetsu said himself he couldn't read at all. Casually reacting to a RM Naruto blitz... On top of that, he's a genius. He figured out how to destroy CT while being pulled into it. Your reaaaally underestimating Itachi. He's the most all around ninja in the entire manga.

With his intelligence, I don't see why he'd stay on the lake,seeing masses of Suigetsu's chakra under him. In which case it would end in a draw. Or Itachi would genjutsu him while Suigetsu guard is down.

Oh wait, I forgot. Suigetsu has no counter for finger genjutsu off the bat. :lol:
Just standing there and attacking? Bee was jumping onto Sasuke and was about to impale him. Raikage would've blitzed Sasuke if it wasn't for Suigetsu. They definitely weren't just standing there.

When did he blitz Bee? If anything he got behind him while he was distracted, and was almost blindsided. He didn't dodge his Seven Sword Dance. He just ran away from it, which Suigetsu could do. And RM Naruto didn't blitz. Itachi just jumped up to him after he dodged his fireball. Also, he just kept in mind that "every jutsu has a weakness" while Naruto was telling him about CT. That, and him and Nagato being in the Akatsuki together would give him at least an idea of his abilities anyway. If anything, Suigetsu is the one being underestimated while Itachi is being overestimated with his hype.

Itachi doesn't have knowledge of Suigetsu. The chakra would be all around the place, and he wouldn't be able to tell which spot in the chakra is Suigetsu. He won't be letting his guard down anytime soon.

Yes he does; he simply doesn't look at it. Not that hard.

TRcommander

04-12-2012, 12:32 PM

Just standing there and attacking? Bee was jumping onto Sasuke and was about to impale him. Raikage would've blitzed Sasuke if it wasn't for Suigetsu. They definitely weren't just standing there.

Both B and the Raikage talked about what they were about to do before actually doing it, and both times Suigetsu appeared from an unknown distance so good luck proving speed from that. When Suigetsu was shown attacking from a known distance, however, he was easily countered.

When did he blitz Bee? If anything he got behind him while he was distracted, and was almost blindsided. He didn't dodge his Seven Sword Dance. He just ran away from it, which Suigetsu could do. And RM Naruto didn't blitz. Itachi just jumped up to him after he dodged his fireball. Also, he just kept in mind that "every jutsu has a weakness" while Naruto was telling him about CT. That, and him and Nagato being in the Akatsuki together would give him at least an idea of his abilities anyway. If anything, Suigetsu is the one being underestimated while Itachi is being overestimated with his hype.

Itachi dodged close range attacks from B and Naruto at the same time. He also used his crow clones to put B into a genjutsu, and he pulled off the clone technique fast enough that B didn't know it was a clone. But clearly Suigetsu has much better speed and reaction feats than B does......

Itachi doesn't have knowledge of Suigetsu. The chakra would be all around the place, and he wouldn't be able to tell which spot in the chakra is Suigetsu. He won't be letting his guard down anytime soon.

Except that part where Suigetsu isn't even fast enough to do anything before being put into a genjutsu. And even if his chakra was all over the place, Itachi could still see and avoid it.

Yes he does; he simply doesn't look at it. Not that hard.

Way to ignore the part where he doesn't have to look at it. Itachi can use the finger genjutsu, and Suigetsu doesn't even have to look at the finger to be trapped. Uchiha_Sora already pointed this out.

Uchiha Sora

04-12-2012, 12:40 PM

Just standing there and attacking? Bee was jumping onto Sasuke and was about to impale him. Raikage would've blitzed Sasuke if it wasn't for Suigetsu. They definitely weren't just standing there.
Hm. Well. Bee WAS just screwing around. Thats not a very good feat either. Not to mention it was a pretty good distance, and IIRC, Suigetsu should have been closer to Sasuke than Bee was. I mean its not bad, but we're talking about Base Bee here. Not to mention Suigetsu had already started running for Sasuke once Bee knocked him down.

No no. Suigetsu intercepted A AFTER A ran up to him. I clearly remember them standing there saying "Even if you've seen through the illusion(Cee's), its too late" A said this with his fist in the air, standing completely still. Same with Darui.

When did he blitz Bee? If anything he got behind him while he was distracted, and was almost blindsided. He didn't dodge his Seven Sword Dance. He just ran away from it, which Suigetsu could do. And RM Naruto didn't blitz. Itachi just jumped up to him after he dodged his fireball. Also, he just kept in mind that "every jutsu has a weakness" while Naruto was telling him about CT. That, and him and Nagato being in the Akatsuki together would give him at least an idea of his abilities anyway. If anything, Suigetsu is the one being underestimated while Itachi is being overestimated with his hype.
Nevermind, he only did that because Bee couldn't sense him. I forgot Naruto could sense negative emotions. Anyway, compare 411 Page 14 to 549 page 15. Same thing, they're all in the same position.
He jumped at him full speed, his legs looking like blurs when he came into contact with Itachi. I would call that a blitz attempt.
I'm not underestimating him at all. There's just no way Suigetsu can beat Itachi. It would end in a draw at best, because Itachi isn't stupid enough to stay on a lake when his opponent spread his chakra all over it.

Itachi doesn't have knowledge of Suigetsu. The chakra would be all around the place, and he wouldn't be able to tell which spot in the chakra is Suigetsu. He won't be letting his guard down anytime soon.
Assuming he gets that far. Magic finger.

Yes he does; he simply doesn't look at it. Not that hard.
Again, when was it ever stated that you need to LOOK at his finger? Do you know how pointless it would be if thats how it was?

Anyway. Naruto said when he fought Itachi the second time: "But he can cast genjutsu just by pointing the same finger he uses to make seals" Key word JUST. Nothing about looking at his finger either. Don't know where this "looking at the finger" came from. Itachi said all he had to do was point a finger.

megabbaut

04-12-2012, 12:46 PM

Both B and the Raikage talked about what they were about to do before actually doing it, and both times Suigetsu appeared from an unknown distance so good luck proving speed from that. When Suigetsu was shown attacking from a known distance, however, he was easily countered.

Itachi dodged close range attacks from B and Naruto at the same time. He also used his crow clones to put B into a genjutsu, and he pulled off the clone technique fast enough that B didn't know it was a clone. But clearly Suigetsu has much better speed and reaction feats than B does......

Except that part where Suigetsu isn't even fast enough to do anything before being put into a genjutsu. And even if his chakra was all over the place, Itachi could still see and avoid it.

Way to ignore the part where he doesn't have to look at it. Itachi can use the finger genjutsu, and suigetsu doesn't even have to look at the finger to be trapped. Uchiha_Sora already pointed this out.
No they didn't. While Bee was in the air he said "and now for the final sting" and the Raikage said that Sasuke was too late to react. Even then, it was obvious what they were going to do anyway. Idk about Bee, but Suigetsu was up on a ledge with Karin when the Raikage was about to blitz Sasuke. The latter statement doesn't matter being that we're talking about speed.

Bee just swung Samehada while he was fighting Naruto, then he backed away. Not that impressive. And that genjutsu doesn't really do much.

How does he see where Suigetsu is when his chakra signature is all over the place and his exact location doesn't make a difference in the chakra? He could be anywhere.

Yeah that's totally going to save him from a water bullet right off the bat, right? Not. Suigetsu got behind Sasuke and was about to shoot him in the head with one of his water bullets. Same happens with Itachi before he points at him.

Uchiha Sora

04-12-2012, 12:50 PM

Suigetsu got behind Sasuke and was about to shoot him in the head with one of his water bullets.

^Did you just say that Itachi is going to be blitzed by Suigetsu?

...I'm leaving. I'm playing Storm Generations.

megabbaut

04-12-2012, 12:51 PM

^Did you just say that Itachi is going to be blitzed by Suigetsu?

I'm leaving. I'm playing Storm Generations.
No, I said he disappears and reappears behind Itachi. Like how he got behind Sasuke.

Uchiha Sora

04-12-2012, 12:53 PM

TRcommander

04-12-2012, 01:01 PM

No they didn't. While Bee was in the air he said "and now for the final sting" and the Raikage said that Sasuke was too late to react. Even then, it was obvious what they were going to do anyway. Idk about Bee, but Suigetsu was up on a ledge with Karin when the Raikage was about to blitz Sasuke. The latter statement doesn't matter being that we're talking about speed.

The later does matter......when Suigetsu attacked B, he was easily countered. When Itachi attacked B, he made a crow clone so quickly B didn't even notice and thought he had captured the real one.

Bee just swung Samehada while he was fighting Naruto, then he backed away. Not that impressive. And that genjutsu doesn't really do much.

The fact that he was able to dodge attacks from two fast characters at the same time says a lot, even if it was just a short run. And I don't believe Suigetsu has done anything to suggest that he's strong against genjutsu so it really doesn't have to do much. All Itachi needs is enough time to get in a single attack, which shouldn't be too difficult considering the speed with which he can use ninja stars.

How does he see where Suigetsu is when his chakra signature is all over the place and his exact location doesn't make a difference in the chakra? He could be anywhere.

That's the point, the chakra is still visible so all he has to do is avoid it.

Yeah that's totally going to save him from a water bullet right off the bat, right? Not. Suigetsu got behind Sasuke and was about to shoot him in the head with one of his water bullets. Same happens with Itachi before he points at him.

Yeah because Suigetsu has such great feats with water bullets......oh wait a second.......he's never even shot one off before. And clearly it's going to take Itachi forever to simply pint his finger at Suigetsu.

Chapter and page?

Nvm I found it. Thing is Sasuke Looks like he let that go and could've countered at any time.

EDIT: looks like I was right. Suigetsu said his heart rate didn't even change.

Not to mention the distance is much larger in this case. Still ample time for the magic finger.

Not to mention the fact that Suigetsu was already in water form when he did that. In the time it takes for him to even activate hydrification mode, Itachi simply points his finger.

megabbaut

04-12-2012, 01:04 PM

Chapter and page?

Nvm I found it. Thing is Sasuke Looks like he let that go and could've countered at any time.

EDIT: looks like I was right. Suigetsu said his heart rate didn't even change.

Not to mention the distance is much larger in this case. Still ample time for the magic finger.
The fact that Suigetsu crossed that large distance and got behind him shows that he could still do it against Itachi.

Also, that doesn't mean that he could've countered at any time. It means that he didn't care. And even if Itachi manages to counter it, Suigetsu will just liquify and drown Itachi.

Uchiha Sora

04-12-2012, 01:12 PM

They're 50m apart here. Suigetsu and Sasuke were like 10m. Sasuke could've easily reacted to that. That's what suigetsu implied when he said Sasuke was extremely strong

Its not gonna work on Itachi. If that speed wouldn't work on Darui or Bee then how is it working on Itachi from a longer distance. Not to mention that's suigetsu without his heavy sword.

While charging at Itachi, suigetsu gets genjutsu'd like naruto did. Or magic finger. Ooooor Suigetsu gets close and finds that Itachi is an exploding clone. Or once he gets to Itachi he turns into crows and finds he's been genjutsu'd from the start. That's just how Itachi does things.

megabbaut

04-12-2012, 01:12 PM

The later does matter......when Suigetsu attacked B, he was easily countered. When Itachi attacked B, he made a crow clone so quickly B didn't even notice and thought he had captured the real one.

The fact that he was able to dodge attacks from two fast characters at the same time says a lot, even if it was just a short run. And I don't believe Suigetsu has done anything to suggest that he's strong against genjutsu so it really doesn't have to do much. All Itachi needs is enough time to get in a single attack, which shouldn't be too difficult considering the speed with which he can use ninja stars.

That's the point, the chakra is still visible so all he has to do is avoid it.

Yeah because Suigetsu has such great feats with water bullets......oh wait a second.......he's never even shot one off before. And clearly it's going to take Itachi forever to simply pint his finger at Suigetsu.

Not to mention the fact that Suigetsu was already in water form when he did that. In the time it takes for him to even activate hydrification mode, Itachi simply points his finger.
He was easily countered because Bee used lightning, which is Suigetsu's weakness. Which Itachi doesn't use.

Suigetsu was able to intercept attacks from two of the fastest shinobi in the manga, and that says a lot. Ninja stars (aka shuriken) don't do any damage to Suigetsu. He's intangible, remember?

How does he avoid it when he moves very slow in Susanoo?

He was about to use one against Sasuke. And it's speed has already been demonstrated when Onoki failed to react to it. And since he's behind Itachi and all, it'll be hard to activate genjutsu and point his finger to cast it on Suigetsu since he has to dodge his sword.

He wasn't in water form. When he did enter water form, he completely disappeared and reappeared behind Sasuke.

They're 50m apart here. Suigetsu and Sasuke were like 10m. Sasuke could've easily reacted to that. That's what suigetsu implied when he said Sasuke was extremely strong

Its not gonna work on Itachi. If that speed wouldn't work on Darui or Bee then how is it working on Itachi from a longer distance. Not to mention that's suigetsu without his heavy sword.

While charging at Itachi, suigetsu gets genjutsu'd like naruto did. Or magic finger. Ooooor Suigetsu gets close and finds that Itachi is an exploding clone. Or once he gets to Itachi he turns into crows and finds he's been genjutsu'd from the start. That's just how Itachi does things.
It did work on Bee. That's how he intercepted his attack. Same with the Raikage. WITH HIS LIGHTNING CLOAK ON. And the distance doesn't matter being that he disappeared into the ground and reappeared on the ground behind Sasuke, instead of just running that distance. And with his heavy sword, he's cutting off Itachi's head.

He's not charging. He's doing what was stated above. Not to mention, Naruto is dumb so he probably did look into his eyes and forgot not to. Plus, since when does in a BG debate involving Itachi, he's replaced with an explosion clone without specification from the OP? And crows can be taken out with water bullets anyway.

TRcommander

04-12-2012, 01:29 PM

He was easily countered because Bee used lightning, which is Suigetsu's weakness. Which Itachi doesn't use.

Not the part I was talking about. Very beginning of the battle; Suigetsu rushes B, and B waits until Suigetu is literally right up in his face before he even bothers to unfold his arms to counter.

Suigetsu was able to intercept attacks from two of the fastest shinobi in the manga, and that says a lot.

Except the part where that speed is completely unquantifiable because we have no idea how far away he was when he began moving to block the attacks.

Ninja stars (aka shuriken) don't do any damage to Suigetsu. He's intangible, remember?

Suigetsu doesn't start in hydrification mode, remember? Itachi points his finger at the very beginning of the battle, Suigetsu gets stuck in a genjutsu long enough for Itachi to put some ninja stars through his entire body. Suigetsu dies.

How does he avoid it when he moves very slow in Susanoo?

Because Itachi doesn't activate susanoo until he's safe and sound on dry land. Not that it would get to that point in the fight anyways.

He was about to use one against Sasuke. And it's speed has already been demonstrated when Onoki failed to react to it. And since he's behind Itachi and all, it'll be hard to activate genjutsu and point his finger to cast it on Suigetsu since he has to dodge his sword.

Somebody else's speed with that technique was shown. Please prove that Suigetsu's is exactly the same. And again, since Suigetsu doesn't start in hydrification mode, he can do nothing before Itachi simply points his finger.

He wasn't in water form. When he did enter water form, he completely disappeared and reappeared behind Sasuke.

Pretty sure he was since he was still reforming from getting out of the tank, and he had water on him even though if he had turned all the way back to physical form it should have just merged with his body. Either way, though, Itachi still only has to point his finger.

It did work on Bee. That's how he intercepted his attack. Same with the Raikage. WITH HIS LIGHTNING CLOAK ON.

Again, that speed is unquantifiable since no distance was shown.

And the distance doesn't matter being that he disappeared into the ground and reappeared on the ground behind Sasuke, instead of just running that distance. And with his heavy sword, he's cutting off Itachi's head.

You seem to be implying that suigetsu could liquify the sword and take it with him when he does that.

He's not charging. He's doing what was stated above.

Except he's too slow to pull that off before Itachi points his finger.

Not to mention, Naruto is dumb so he probably did look into his eyes and forgot not to. Plus, since when does in a BG debate involving Itachi, he's replaced with an explosion clone without specification from the OP? And crows can be taken out with water bullets anyway.

Specualtion isn't valid. It was stated that all Itachi had to do was point. And Itachi has made clones so fast that not even B and Kakashi with his sharigan activated could see him do it. What makes you think Suigetsu could follow Itachi's movements?

Uchiha Sora

04-12-2012, 01:37 PM

Go re-read the two Chapters Kumogakure VS Hawk and the first half of Sasuke's Dogma(maybe).
Right now. A was not moving when Suigetsu ran in. he was standing still with his fist raised. THEN he swung down. Sure it was from A, a fast character, but the attack itself was NOT FAST. A feat when someone runs in from an unknown distance at an unknown time is pretty much useless.

How do you even know he liquified? There's no evidence of that. And how he's supposed to magically go unnoticed is beyond me. and they're 50m away. with Itachi's reactions and sharingan seeing his chakra I don't understand how he's not easily reacted to and genjutsu'd. Before suigetsu even thinks of doing that, he's genjutsu'd. And if he really does liquify, you can still see Zabuza's huge sword moving around underwater along with his chakra. Itachi even reacted to Bee's blinside swinging Samehada when he was already concentrated on fighting Naruto WHILE having a deep conversation with him.

And by some miracle suigetsu actually traps him in his liquified body, Susano'o.
Either way it ends in Itachi's win off the bat or a draw.

We don't even know if Suigetsu can use Water Pistol or whatever its called. And even if he can, theres no telling how strong it will be, or how fast it is, or anything like that.

megabbaut

04-12-2012, 01:57 PM

Not the part I was talking about. Very beginning of the battle; Suigetsu rushes B, and B waits until Suigetu is literally right up in his face before he even bothers to unfold his arms to counter.
Oh, nvm then. I thought we were talking about after Sasuke was impaled.
Itachi doesn't have the physical strength that Bee has.

Except the part where that speed is completely unquantifiable because we have no idea how far away he was when he began moving to block the attacks.
The distance between Suigetsu and Bee/Sasuke is shown on the beginning of chapter 412. Note how we see Jugo running but not Suigetsu.
Suigetsu was on a ledge when the Raikage blitzed Sasuke.

Suigetsu doesn't start in hydrification mode, remember? Itachi points his finger at the very beginning of the battle, Suigetsu gets stuck in a genjutsu long enough for Itachi to put some ninja stars through his entire body. Suigetsu dies.
He enters hydrification mode when he's attacked. When he gets hit by the shurikens, they don't do anything. he liquifies, and they pass right through him. When he went to get Zabuza's sword, he was stabbed with it, but he didn't feel the pain. He liquified afterwards and took it.

Because Itachi doesn't activate susanoo until he's safe and sound on dry land. Not that it would get to that point in the fight anyways.
He doesn't have to be on dry land for Suigetsu to get under Susanoo. He just has to get behind Itachi, turn into a puddle, go inside Susanoo, and kill him.

Somebody else's speed with that technique was shown. Please prove that Suigetsu's is exactly the same. And again, since Suigetsu doesn't start in hydrification mode, he can do nothing before Itachi simply points his finger.
Ima use simple logic here.

Prove that they aren't the same. That's like saying Gun A shoots a bullet faster than Gun B. Guns fire a bullet at the same speed. Same logic applies here.

Pretty sure he was since he was still reforming from getting out of the tank, and he had water on him even though if he had turned all the way back to physical form it should have just merged with his body. Either way, though, Itachi still only has to point his finger.
He'd still liquify if he was hit anyway. His body is not physical, it's intangible. Because he's water.

As for the finger, he's not doing that before Suigetsu gets behind him.

Uchiha Sora

04-12-2012, 02:03 PM

Prove that they aren't the same. That's like saying Gun A shoots a bullet faster than Gun B. Guns fire a bullet at the same speed. Same logic applies here.
Prove he can use it at all. Prove that jutsu wasn't some other jutsu. Prove he wasn't acting like those random girls on random anime who point their finger and shoot to look cute.(:lol:)
Alright so then Naruto's rasengan when he first learned it and his current rasengan variants are all the same strength. mhm. Yup. yup. And his rasengans are the same as Jiraiya and Minato's. Yup yup.

We don't know how much chakra Suigetsu pumps in. We don't know how small his may be. We don't know how powerful it is. We don't know how fast. Your example doesn't work here. These aren't real guns with the same bullets.

Hm. Which is harder to do. Point a finger... or liquify and swim over...50m... Not to mention Itachi can see him underwater and point at him while he swims.

And then there's always that staredown in the first part of the fight. Suigetsu would also have to think about what he's doing. Whereas Itachi is all like lawlzgenjutsu

TRcommander

04-12-2012, 02:16 PM

Oh, nvm then. I thought we were talking about after Sasuke was impaled.
Itachi doesn't have the physical strength that Bee has.

.........that wasn't the point. The point was that B casually reacted after waiting to move until Suigetsu was right in front of him, and that shows that Suigetsu's speed isn't that great.

The distance between Suigetsu and Bee/Sasuke is shown on the beginning of chapter 412. Note how we see Jugo running but not Suigetsu.
Suigetsu was on a ledge when the Raikage blitzed Sasuke.

Suigetsu was off panel that whole time. How do you know he didn't move?

He enters hydrification mode when he's attacked. When he gets hit by the shurikens, they don't do anything. he liquifies, and they pass right through him. When he went to get Zabuza's sword, he was stabbed with it, but he didn't feel the pain. He liquified afterwards and took it.

He can't do that when he's under genjutsu. I'm not presenting this as an either/or situation......Itachi puts him under genjutsu then he kills him with one attack.

He doesn't have to be on dry land for Suigetsu to get under Susanoo. He just has to get behind Itachi, turn into a puddle, go inside Susanoo, and kill him.

Not that it'd get to that point, but you think Itachi's not going to notice a puddle of water forming under his feet?

Ima use simple logic here.

Prove that they aren't the same. That's like saying Gun A shoots a bullet faster than Gun B. Guns fire a bullet at the same speed. Same logic applies here.

Except you're the one making the positive claim that they are the same, so it's your burden of proof to show that a move that Suigetsu has never used on panel before is exactly the same as someone else's. And by your logic, everybody that can use fire jutsu can use it at the same speed, everybody that can use mind transfer jutsu can use it at the same speed, every single person that has ever used the same jutsu can use it with the exact same speed and skill.........not valid logic. Prove that Suigetsu can use that technique at the exact same skill level that the Second Mizukage did.

He'd still liquify if he was hit anyway. His body is not physical, it's intangible. Because he's water.

Except he's in a genjutsu before he can liquify, so he's not water when he takes some ninja stars to the face and throat.

As for the finger, he's not doing that before Suigetsu gets behind him.

Exept he is because he's faster.

colorles

04-12-2012, 02:20 PM

itachi can kill with genjutsu...but whats this 'lawl genjutsu'? killing with a glance doesnt seem all that lulzy...

TRcommander

04-12-2012, 02:24 PM

itachi can kill with genjutsu...but whats this 'lawl genjutsu'? killing with a glance doesnt seem all that lulzy...

...........I never thought I'd see the day that we ended up on the same side of a debate...........

Maybe the world really is going to end this year o.O

Gaia

04-12-2012, 02:33 PM

Hm..this thread was pretty active, I'll reply to the posts that were replied to me then I'll try reading after I post to catch up
Any particular reason he can't just walk? I think it's been long established that ninjas don't need to swim.

It's not susceptible to physical damage. Getting sealed doesn't cause physical damage. How do you walk if you're surrounded by water? And Suigetsu can just follow.

Getting sealed doesn't cause physical damage, but it requires to get a physical hit in order to seal. Suigetsu is made of water, the Totsuka will go right through him and you have absolutely no proof that Totsuka has the capability of sealing any entity that isn't in physical form susceptible to piercing. So to be blunt, "proof or gtfo".

Genjutsu isn't useless. Neither is the totsuka sword, but there's obviously no way I can convince you of that.Yes it is useless, and yes there is a way to convince me, by being right. You haven't convinced me yet because you're wrong and have no proof to convince otherwise, and I know of each of Itachi's appearances and that Totsuka is incapable of doing such a thing.

Itachi blitzed B using a crow clone and put him in a genjutsu that the Eight-Tails had to break him out of. This is the same B that casually reacted to Suigetsu and basically didn't even consider him a threat.
He wasn't trying to avoid looking into his eyes.
Don't you guys have something called spite threads on Viz forums LOL.

This is a stomp, Akatsuki burns Suigetsu...it's fire that burns through ANYTHING including fire and water.

Then there's the whole Suigetsu can't break genjutsu thing.

Then there's the whole even if Suigetsu could do both those things Tobi pwned his swordsmanship with one hand, Kisame was parrying Suigetsu's attacks effortlessly, and Bee stomped Juugo and Suigetsu without breaking a sweat.

If Bee's swordsmanship >>>>>> Suigetsu's swordsmanship
and Itachi parried Bee's attacks then doesn't that mean

Itachi >>>> Suigetsu even in kenjutsu

That means even if by some miracle Itachi's attacks don't work Suigetsu still won't be able to hurt him so even if Itachi can't win Suigetsu can't lose.

/thread
Suigetsu liquifies and easily avoids and/or tanks Amaterasu. Suigetsu doesn't look into Itachi's eyes or at his hands to avoid genjutsu. Tobi stopped it and there was a clanging noise, Itachi doesn't have that capability. When Suigetsu swung at Bee, a gigantic crater smashed into the ground because of Suigetsu's strength. Bee also fought him with the upper hand, AKA Raiton which Itachi doesn't have. Try again please.
Genjutsu, like I said.

Someone please tell me how Suigetsu avoids genjutsu?
I don't believe I got a clear answer last time.

'Knowledge' is quite a broad answer.
By not looking into his eyes as stated dozens of times previous..?

TRcommander

04-12-2012, 02:39 PM

Gaia

04-12-2012, 02:57 PM

@Gaia: At this point, we're just going to have to agree to disagree about the totsuka sword because obviously neither one of us is ever going to convince the other based on what's been shown.

As far as genjutsu, Uchiha_Sora already showed that the finger genjutsu doesn't require to opponent to actually look at it.

Also, Itachi's susanoo took kirin so I don't see Suigetsu getting through it. Also, Itachi could simply dodge considering he's faster and all.
Well if you wish. However I think I should clarify either way as I may not have made it clear enough previously-- Itachi stabbing Suigetsu through the chest with Totsuka and proceeding to seal him is one thing. Obviously the stab through his chest will do virtually nothing physical wise as Suigetsu is immune. What you are claiming, is that despite no proof saying so, it can seal him, simply because although it is piercing him, it isn't. Sure, if you want to believe that he is able to be sealed from this point, I'm okay with that. What happens when Suigetsu uses his ability and liquifies? Itachi has no target.

When did he say this? I'm reading through on my own time, but if you didn't notice I wasn't here for the past few pages. ^^

Suigetsu may not be able to get through it however it's horribly draining for Itachi and while he sits in it the easier it becomes for Suigetsu to win, while if he doesn't sit in it he's in a seriously dangerous situation. On the other hand, Suigetsu can basically sit back, and take a nap(eyes shut, no genjutsu :p) in liquid mode and chill while Itachi tries to hurt him wasting his chakra for no reason.

Frost ninja

04-12-2012, 02:59 PM

Gaia

04-12-2012, 03:08 PM

He doesn't need to.

Suigetsu has no realistic quantifiable reaction feats.
Itachi blitzes in and shoves his fingers directly infront of both suigetsu's eyes before he can liquify, since he doesn't start out that way.

Its game from there. "I know I have to av- oh shiz" Then genjutsu'd. He can know all he wants, he isn't going to be able to do anything about it.

Plus he can also Toska blitz since it worked on Prime nagato whose reactions are much much much better than Suigetsus. The only counter, supposidly, is to liquify (even though theres no proof it stops the sealing aside from you stating it yourself.) and he won't have time to do it.
When has Itachi's speed ever been this good to blitz 50 meters before Suigetsu can do literally anything more than process a thought?

And please do give me a good scan of where Itachi has ever shoved his hand in someone's face to genjutsu them, because that's highly Out of Character last I checked and entirely made of bull. The least I would have expected is a "Agree to disagree" like TRCommander or at best "You're right, Gaia," not desperately pull some random thing out of your ass to have something to stand on to give Itachi a reason he wins.

Besides, doesn't start in liquid form? The only time he's ever not in liquid form is when he doesn't have enough chakra, otherwise he can activate it within nanoseconds of a physical attack touching him each time he's been nonchalantly chilling and then gets hit and instantly liquifies.

Shadowterra

04-12-2012, 03:09 PM

Also, Itachi's susanoo took kirin so I don't see Suigetsu getting through it. Also, Itachi could simply dodge considering he's faster and all.

suigetsus faster than itachi?in part 1 itachi formed seals so fast even kakashi with his sharingan could't see them.

And itachi has ALOT more attacks than just amaterasu,susanoo and tsukuyami, itachi has a fire nature of chakra AND A WATER NATURE. this means he too can use water style jutsu so he could use water dragon and water gun

Gaia

04-12-2012, 03:11 PM

suigetsus faster than itachi?in part 1 itachi formed seals so fast even kakashi with his sharingan could't see them.

And itachi has ALOT more attacks than just amaterasu,susanoo and tsukuyami, itachi has a fire nature of chakra AND A WATER NATURE. this means he too can use water style jutsu so he could use water dragon and water gun
Fire nature gets eaten by Suigetsu's oh I don't know, water nature? And water nature on a liquid 'logia' water body is just...

Frost ninja

04-12-2012, 03:17 PM

When has Itachi's speed ever been this good to blitz 50 meters before Suigetsu can do literally anything more than process a thought?

And please do give me a good scan of where Itachi has ever shoved his hand in someone's face to genjutsu them, because that's highly Out of Character last I checked and entirely made of bull. The least I would have expected is a "Agree to disagree" like TRCommander or at best "You're right, Gaia," not desperately pull some random thing out of your ass to have something to stand on to give Itachi a reason he wins.

Besides, doesn't start in liquid form? The only time he's ever not in liquid form is when he doesn't have enough chakra, otherwise he can activate it within nanoseconds of a physical attack touching him each time he's been nonchalantly chilling and then gets hit and instantly liquifies.

Suigetsu lacks reacions. He doesnt need to be exceptionally fast.

He basically blitz slaughtered PTS sasuke and forced him into Genjutsu. So no, its not OOC for him to force genjutsus on people via blitz. I won't say "your right, Gaia" since... you know... your not. bo.o"

No, he doesn't start in liquid. And liquifying to Karen's kick isn't impressive. And Nanoseconds? Scans please. I'll need one to quantify, show me this. Because that sounds like an empty grasp.

TRcommander

04-12-2012, 03:41 PM

suigetsus faster than itachi?in part 1 itachi formed seals so fast even kakashi with his sharingan could't see them.

Yeah.......I think you misunderstood my post. I've been pointing out that Itachi can blitz Suigetsu with a genjutu for a while now. When I said, "he's faster and all" I was referring to Itachi.

Uchiha Sora

04-12-2012, 04:17 PM

Once again,what stops the magic finger off the bat?
Whether it be attempting to blindside, or merging with the water, Itachi can still follow and point his finger at him before hes unrecognizable. He doesnt need to have suigetsu looking at his finger. Don't know where that came from.

megabbaut

04-12-2012, 04:22 PM

Once again,what stops the magic finger?
Whether it be attempting to blindside, or merging with the water, Itachi can still follow and point his finger at him before hes unrecognizable. He doesnt need to have suigetsu looking at his finger. Don't know where that came from.
He gets behind Itachi and cuts his head off. There's still no counter for that. No, Itachi can't point his finger when Suigetsu disappears. No, Itachi can't put him in genjutsu when he's behind him.

And the fact still remains that even if he does get put in genjutsu, nothing will happen to him since the crow ninja stars can't hurt Suigetsu since he's intangible.

TRcommander

04-12-2012, 04:28 PM

He gets behind Itachi and cuts his head off. There's still no counter for that. No, Itachi can't point his finger when Suigetsu disappears. No, Itachi can't put him in genjutsu when he's behind him.

And the fact still remains that even if he does get put in genjutsu, nothing will happen to him since the crow ninja stars can't hurt Suigetsu since he's intangible.

Suigetsu still isn't fast enough to do this. And you still don't seem to get this........Suigetsu doesn't start in hydrifiction mode which means he doesn't start out immune to weapons. Itachi genjutsus before Suigetsu can react and then kills him because Suigetsu doesn't start out in hydrification mode. Also, Suigetsu still can't liquify his sword either.

megabbaut

04-12-2012, 04:53 PM

As Gaia pointed out:

The only time he's ever not in liquid form is when he doesn't have enough chakra, otherwise he can activate it within nanoseconds of a physical attack touching him each time he's been nonchalantly chilling and then gets hit and instantly liquifies.
Suigetsu is always in hydrification mode. The only time he isn't, is when he's out of chakra. Also, it's not a matter of Suigetsu's speed. He disappears in liquid form, and reappears behind Itachi. That's how he got behind Sasuke. Sasuke could've countered easily because he actually had something to hurt Suigetsu with (his raiton sword) but Itachi is a different story.

TRcommander

04-12-2012, 05:02 PM

As Gaia pointed out:

Suigetsu is always in hydrification mode. The only time he isn't, is when he's out of chakra. Also, it's not a matter of Suigetsu's speed. He disappears in liquid form, and reappears behind Itachi. That's how he got behind Sasuke. Sasuke could've countered easily because he actually had something to hurt Suigetsu with (his raiton sword) but Itachi is a different story.

Except he's not. He would have loads of fun keeping his clothes on and holding things. For example, when you see him hold his sword, his hands are fully formed and solid. They kind of have to be.

Gaia

04-12-2012, 05:19 PM

Suigetsu lacks reacions. He doesnt need to be exceptionally fast.

He basically blitz slaughtered PTS sasuke and forced him into Genjutsu. So no, its not OOC for him to force genjutsus on people via blitz. I won't say "your right, Gaia" since... you know... your not. bo.o"

No, he doesn't start in liquid. And liquifying to Karen's kick isn't impressive. And Nanoseconds? Scans please. I'll need one to quantify, show me this. Because that sounds like an empty grasp.
Scan please? He's never forced genjutsu on characters, ever. Characters with lack of knowledge either fall into genjutsu..or they don't.

Go back to any time Suigetsu was ever hit by any attack. Do you see him activating a jutsu or turning his hydration on? Because I don't.
Except he's not. He would have loads of fun keeping his clothes on and holding things. For example, when you see him hold his sword, his hands are fully formed and solid. They kind of have to be.I don't think I meant it literally which Mega took from, however saying "Liquid would mean he has no muscle for strength" is incorrect because he utilizes his liquid technique in order to make his attacks stronger.

Wait..you meant literally in 100% Liquid form? Every single time he's been hit wherever he's been hit has turned into water entirely.