Why don't more people realise just how badly Itachi messed Sasuke up?

[TobiramaSenju307]

now whether or not the massacre was justified is up to you.

but itachi did something that renders him irredeemable.
1. hurt sasuke, beat him up and then mindraped him almost immediately by showing the killing of the clan over and over for 72 hours, leaving sasuke a drooling wreck. he was 7 at the time, guys.
2. verbally abused him and made sasuke think it was his fault his clan got killed for not being strong enough.
4. told sasuke to kill his best friend for power. and when the time came, sasuke would have succeeded but kyuubi healed naruto.
5. told sasuke to live a pathetic life of loneliness, hate and revenge, and to run away.
6. returned to konoha for the sole purpose of reminding the elders that he is a traitor who will spill all of konohas secrets to hostile nations and start a war if they killed sasuke.
then proceeded to order kakashi's execution, and possibly asuma and kurenais and inflict an even worse torture session and savage beating on his brother, again making him think he'd been doing nothing at all for all this time and all this training. sasuke never had an inherent lust or greed for power, not until this torture session. after that all he could think about was gaining power to stop this maniac. even at the cost of his own body and life.
7. until team 7, sasuke WAS completely and utterly alone. he had to suffer in darkness, thinking only of how to kill his brother. he had no one. no one cared. they were all like hinata. admiring from a distance but never really showing any physical compassion. and when sakura showed she genuinely cared, it was already too late.
8. itachi instilled in sasuke, some misguided lie about how the uchihas were the pride of the village and better than everyone else because they were the police. even though they were actually being oppressed and stripped of real power. this led to sasuke's superiority complex and disbelief that he, the top of his class, could be bested by naruto.
9. even if itachi ddi all this to "make sasuke hate him and get stronger" sasuke already wanted itachi's head on a stick after finding out he killed everyone. but itachi went so far as to say "i did it to test my limits' which is the same as saying "im a mass murderer who killed everyone for no real reason and will do the same to many more if im not stopped". considering this was sasuke's most beloved person in the world, that would have been enough to not ever stop till he found itachi and stopped him. but itachi kept pushing, kept abusing him.
10. tortured sasuke into a coma by making him watch the murder of his clan for the hundredth time. keep in mind he had no idea tsunade would return and heal him. this is no act. this actually happens. there was no necessity or need for such sadistic and brutal torture. it reminded me of freeza vs vegeta or spopovitch vs videl.
11. then he continues the mental abuse and manipulations by telling him he's weak because he DOESNT HAVE HATE. then itachi must have a lot of freaking hate because he's so overpowered.
12. and so as a direct result of itachi's actions (oro helped a little by feeding the darkness and making it fester quicker), sasuke leaves konoha and tries to kill naruto, one of the only peopel who gives a ;);););) about him. he wouldnt have done this, if he planned on coming back one day.
13. despite all this, itachi goes for YET ANOTHER ROUND of tsukiyomi in their final fight, pretending to rip sasuke's eye out. does this strike you as a well balanced man? and i wonder what itachi planned to do if oro DIDNT come out, or if jiraiya DIDNT come back to the hotel, or if sasuke just happened to die alone in the forest against gaara to buy naruto and sakura time, like he was about to do. his whole plans hinged on sasuke being evil enough to not throw his life away protecting konoha comrades.
14. sasuke defeats him and completes his objective, onyl to discover he'd been lied to and uchihas he wanted to avenge were scum, and itachi was the one person who did care (in his own cold twisted way).

so can you really blame sasuke for the way he became? no wonder the boy snapped.
itachi is like the joker. he takes heroes and tears them down to villain status, and doesnt even care if innocent people get killed in the process. to itachi, naruto was completely disposable and a means to an end (ms sasuke).

[Cyl]

Started getting repetitive at and after 10, so I stopped reading. =p

[Pinks17]

Yeah i know, people clearly blame Sauske and try not to understand him.
It's sad getting all this hate, because he's clearly just being manipulated with his emotions and there tough emotions! No one will truly understand unless something as awful had happened to him lol xD

I don't blame him, i feel for him! :/

[AfterDark]

I consider that Itachi had to do what he had to do. He killed his clan for the sake of the village. He wanted Sasuke to get stronger to kill him so he felt that he avenged the Clan. If Tobi never had told Sasuke about it then this would never had happened.

[ichirakuramen]

started getting repetitive at and after 10, so i stopped reading. =p

true. :d

[Jutsu Junkie]

I consider that Itachi had to do what he had to do. He killed his clan for the sake of the village. He wanted Sasuke to get stronger to kill him so he felt that he avenged the Clan. If Tobi never had told Sasuke about it then this would never had happened.

No, he didn't. Itachi did what he decided to do, not what he had to do, nothing more. And I would say it was one of the least courageous and noble of the alternatives open to him, so he's a coward too. Many people on this board persist in the misguided belief that the premeditated mass murder of children and the infirm can be justified by an appeal to national security. These people are wrong. And it was clearly stupid, even in the coldest calculation. The very fact that the one who ordered the massacre coveted sharingans tells you that. Apparently Donzo had never heard of the story of the Golden Goose. Mass murder is the tool of weak minds who pay no attention to history.

All the reasons stated by the op are correct, but before any of that Itachi is evil because he's a degenerate baby killer.

[Jakropha]

To be quite honest, Kishimoto wanted to go this direction with Itachi in the first half of the series, and then he did a 180 and made Itachi a good guy...
Yeah... he tried REALLY hard to fix that...
At least, without something reminding us every week, we would still think he's a harmless protagonist!
For all we know, he could turn around and ragestomp Sasuke next chapter :lol:

[Jutsu Junkie]

From a dramatic standpoint, I have no problem with Itachi's character. He's a well-crafted, complex villain. I even like that his villainy isn't black-and-white. My problem is with the baseless assertion that he's somehow good.

[SilentBlade]

I think it is an interesting approach. I simply do not understand regardless of his purpose of killing everyone, how he was so willing to? to stop a war that would have resulted in the death of his clan by killing off his entire clan? that just seams a bit stupid if you ask me. While one could argue that he was afraid of war and the uprising, hes a villain none the less, and no possible excuse is good enough, unless we are going based on the idea that he would carry out his mission at any cost (based on training).

[Wooster]

now whether or not the massacre was justified is up to you.

but itachi did something that renders him irredeemable.
1. hurt sasuke, beat him up and then mindraped him almost immediately by showing the killing of the clan over and over for 72 hours, leaving sasuke a drooling wreck. he was 7 at the time, guys.
2. verbally abused him and made sasuke think it was his fault his clan got killed for not being strong enough.
4. told sasuke to kill his best friend for power. and when the time came, sasuke would have succeeded but kyuubi healed naruto.
5. told sasuke to live a pathetic life of loneliness, hate and revenge, and to run away.
6. returned to konoha for the sole purpose of reminding the elders that he is a traitor who will spill all of konohas secrets to hostile nations and start a war if they killed sasuke.
then proceeded to order kakashi's execution, and possibly asuma and kurenais and inflict an even worse torture session and savage beating on his brother, again making him think he'd been doing nothing at all for all this time and all this training. sasuke never had an inherent lust or greed for power, not until this torture session. after that all he could think about was gaining power to stop this maniac. even at the cost of his own body and life.
All of these were done when clearly Kishi planned to have Itachi be the big evil, essentially Madara.

It's a shame because Itachi is a much better viliain than a nameless Tobi and a dead Madara. :|
Instead, we have Itachi Twist.

[TatsumiTora]

I have no problem with Itachi or with what Sasuke had become. I simply just can't blame the brothers for what they have become. I actually sympathise with both Sasuke and Itachi.

Alas, Kishimoto Masashi is the creator of Naruto.. Ranting about Sasuke or Itachi is equal to ranting about our lives (in my point of view), so I just go with the flow. LOL :)

[athoatho]

ok there two points :
1. did Itachi really wanted to harm sasuke, no. then was his actions bad for sasuke may be.
2. did he have better choice than killing his all clan ? the completely depend on the size of damage that war could cause. his choice was either eliminate the clan himself and save his brother or let someone else do it of course he had another choice of joining his family against konoha, and this totally depend on the balance of power.
lets not forget that he did what he thought the best for his brother, the action was agreed upon by the third ( as i think ) and this makes the nice third a partner in the crime. he was in tough situation under high pressure
Itachi didnt want any one to consider him good, he tried to hide any good intent to the last minutes and even after he was so strong that he could even clame being Hokage but he did nothing of this he sacrificed his life happiness name only for the safety of his brother , say he was insane may be but hate sasuke never
regards

[Dunkin]

Its odd I know but I still hate sasuke. Regardless of what he went through (We all have our own minds) He's such a weak character in my opinion since he's so easily manipulated by others.

Itachi will always remain a villian in my opinion but alas, he's a good one. I have no issue with Itachi whatso ever.

Much like a few other members have stated, this is the route Kishimoto decided to go. You're not gonna be changing very many minds here, people are gonna dislike Sasuke still no matter how many facts you through in the air.
We all have our own reasons as to why we dislike him, or Like him.

[Jutsu Junkie]

I have no problem with Itachi or with what Sasuke had become. I simply just can't blame the brothers for what they have become. I actually sympathise with both Sasuke and Itachi.

Alas, Kishimoto Masashi is the creator of Naruto.. Ranting about Sasuke or Itachi is equal to ranting about our lives (in my point of view), so I just go with the flow. LOL :)

With the difference that you can actually influence the outcome of your own life -- unless your life is Naruto. Then you'll have to negotiate with Kishi! LOL

ok there two points :
1. did Itachi really wanted to harm sasuke, no. then was his actions bad for sasuke may be.
2. did he have better choice than killing his all clan ? the completely depend on the size of damage that war could cause. his choice was either eliminate the clan himself and save his brother or let someone else do it of course he had another choice of joining his family against konoha, and this totally depend on the balance of power.
lets not forget that he did what he thought the best for his brother, the action was agreed upon by the third ( as i think ) and this makes the nice third a partner in the crime. he was in tough situation under high pressure
Itachi didnt want any one to consider him good, he tried to hide any good intent to the last minutes and even after he was so strong that he could even clame being Hokage but he did nothing of this he sacrificed his life happiness name only for the safety of his brother , say he was insane may be but hate sasuke never
regards

Considering Itachi was strong enough to kill off his entire clan, all he really needed to do is attend the clan meeting he missed and slaughter everyone there, since all the conspirators would have been present. If it was known more widely than that circle of people, then it was a lame conspiracy to begin with. He could have made it look like the the actions of a criminal syndicate, such as Akatsuki (which did exist at the time and had many members with a reason to hate the Leaf). Also, killing the Uchiha weakened the Leaf anyway -- the very thing he sought to avoid. The outcome of the Pain Arc might have logically been different if there had been MS users around. Shisui, for example, might have been able to completely overmatch Pain by himself, considering the power his eye exhibits, and we know Pain was vulnerable to genjutsu. In the end you could say that the destruction of the Hidden Leaf Village was partly Itachi's fault.

[KillerKunoichi]

Itachi & Sasuke are both victims of the system. I blame the elders if anyone. I can't wait for Sasuke to wipe those old farts off the face of Narutoverse.

The village failed Sasuke, not Itachi. If someone had shown him love & care when he was a child like Iruka had for Naruto, then Sasuke would have grown into a different person. No one tried to connect with him until it was too late. Naruto probably would have gone down a similar path if Iruka hadn't made that first effort to be there for him.

I love both Itachi & Sasuke. I loved Itachi as the villain and the good guy. So I am happy either way.

[Sabaku.Soso]

There we go again. The problem here is some of you people find it so bitter to accept that Itachi is a protagonist and he's ways better than Sasuke.
Btw, something like this has been posted in Character Talk not so long ago, by the same author if Im not mistaken.

[clayartisabang!]

Although itachi is a well meaning character, he is a villain. I appreciate this thread, It reminds you of why sasuke is how he is. I mean, everything he has ever cared about gets destroyed and in his viewpoint, the people he almost considered family(team 7) are ninjas of the village who's heads essentially ordered the annihilation of his family and caused the insanity of his brother. Itachi isn't so justified though, he is a villain but a well meaning one...wasn't it kill the clan or the clan take over the village? I don't think that would be terrible but i'll assume it would of been thus itachi murdered them...:/

[athoatho]

With the difference that you can actually influence the outcome of your own life -- unless your life is Naruto. Then you'll have to negotiate with Kishi! LOL



Considering Itachi was strong enough to kill off his entire clan, all he really needed to do is attend the clan meeting he missed and slaughter everyone there, since all the conspirators would have been present. If it was known more widely than that circle of people, then it was a lame conspiracy to begin with. He could have made it look like the the actions of a criminal syndicate, such as Akatsuki (which did exist at the time and had many members with a reason to hate the Leaf). Also, killing the Uchiha weakened the Leaf anyway -- the very thing he sought to avoid. The outcome of the Pain Arc might have logically been different if there had been MS users around. Shisui, for example, might have been able to completely overmatch Pain by himself, considering the power his eye exhibits, and we know Pain was vulnerable to genjutsu. In the end you could say that the destruction of the Hidden Leaf Village was partly Itachi's fault.
i liked the idea of lame conspiracy, very smart.
again Itachi was not the one to formulate the options, this was made by the elders. he was the one to make the choice : commit the mass murder or loosing his brother. his clan was decided to be eradicated any way. he had nothing to be done about this ( except as i said before joining his family conspiracy against Konoha ) a conspiracy that he expected to fail.
also Itachi didnt care about Konoha rather he was thinking of the well being of his younger brother ( i will tell you something when you know a child a son a nephew a niece this he or she will always remain child for you regardless of his age ) he was thinkig of protecting him and preparing him
and thank you for commenting on my post

[and17y1]

Nope you are totally WRONG.
It is not Itachi`s fault but TOBI`S !!!!!!
If it wasnt Tobi who summoned and controlled Kurama no one would think that the already peaceful and quite clan in Konoha called Uchiha were organizing coup d'etat. Thats why Danzo told Itachi to kill his clan.

Thats the truth.

Checkmate!

[and17y1]

And this thread`s purpose is no more. If u ask me it didnt have any purpose from the very beginning.

[athoatho]

regarding Sasuke this is my opinion
http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86085

[mrsticky005]

All of these were done when clearly Kishi planned to have Itachi be the big evil, essentially Madara.

It's a shame because Itachi is a much better viliain than a nameless Tobi and a dead Madara. :|
Instead, we have Itachi Twist.

I actually rather like Tobi as a villain.
Madara is dull though...unless he is Tobi.

What if Tobi is Itachi somehow?

[Ultimate combatant]

now whether or not the massacre was justified is up to you.

but itachi did something that renders him irredeemable.
1. hurt sasuke, beat him up and then mindraped him almost immediately by showing the killing of the clan over and over for 72 hours, leaving sasuke a drooling wreck. he was 7 at the time, guys.

He did it for his brother.

2. verbally abused him and made sasuke think it was his fault his clan got killed for not being strong enough.

Partially. It was exactly because people like Sasuke, village wanted Uchiha dead. Even before his clan was murdered, Sasuke already was very arrogant and thought was superior to others.

4. told sasuke to kill his best friend for power. and when the time came, sasuke would have succeeded but kyuubi healed naruto.

Where is number 3? Anyway, Itachi went through death of his clan, even had to kill them himself, he also had best friend (Shisui). It was much harder for Itachi than Sasuke. Yet Itachi handled it.

5. told sasuke to live a pathetic life of loneliness, hate and revenge, and to run away.

Itachi wanted to be sure, Sasuke would try to kill him.

6. returned to konoha for the sole purpose of reminding the elders that he is a traitor who will spill all of konohas secrets to hostile nations and start a war if they killed sasuke.

Protecting his little brother.

then proceeded to order kakashi's execution, and possibly asuma and kurenais and inflict an even worse torture session and savage beating on his brother, again making him think he'd been doing nothing at all for all this time and all this training. sasuke never had an inherent lust or greed for power, not until this torture session. after that all he could think about was gaining power to stop this maniac. even at the cost of his own body and life.

Making sure, he would still appear as a bad guy and protect Sasuke at the same time.

7. until team 7, sasuke WAS completely and utterly alone. he had to suffer in darkness, thinking only of how to kill his brother. he had no one. no one cared. they were all like hinata. admiring from a distance but never really showing any physical compassion. and when sakura showed she genuinely cared, it was already too late.

They all tried to be there with him and for him, he was the one who distanced himself from others.



8. itachi instilled in sasuke, some misguided lie about how the uchihas were the pride of the village and better than everyone else because they were the police. even though they were actually being oppressed and stripped of real power. this led to sasuke's superiority complex and disbelief that he, the top of his class, could be bested by naruto.

Formally speaking, Police force was what Itachi said. He omitted few things Sasuke would not understand, anyway. Police also wasn`t stripped of power. It was the existance of police, distancing Uchiha from power. But these are politics. Also, this was intelligent move made by Second Hokage.

9. even if itachi ddi all this to "make sasuke hate him and get stronger" sasuke already wanted itachi's head on a stick after finding out he killed everyone. but itachi went so far as to say "i did it to test my limits' which is the same as saying "im a mass murderer who killed everyone for no real reason and will do the same to many more if im not stopped". considering this was sasuke's most beloved person in the world, that would have been enough to not ever stop till he found itachi and stopped him. but itachi kept pushing, kept abusing him.

Testing limits and killing for no reason is not the same thing. Even Sasuke knew Itachi well enough to know, Itachi wouldn`t do it unless he had reason. NOTE: Sasuke witnessed when Itachi was accused of killing Shisui and fighting and taunting Uchiha.

10. tortured sasuke into a coma by making him watch the murder of his clan for the hundredth time. keep in mind he had no idea tsunade would return and heal him. this is no act. this actually happens. there was no necessity or need for such sadistic and brutal torture. it reminded me of freeza vs vegeta or spopovitch vs videl.

He did the same he did to Kakashi, or even less brutal. Unlike Frieza he had reason, other than pure enjoyment. Same thing with Spopovich. NOTE: Videl would`ve killed competitor (his head turned completely), the only Reason Spopovich survived was because he was Majin. So, if Videl fought some other strong fighter, she`d just kill him. Spopovich didn`t mean to kill her, not to mention Spopovich had his evilness amplified by Babidi. Normal Spopovich wouldn`t try to kill Videl, Videl however would try to kill him. How would Videl turn out, if her evil was amplified? Who knows!?

11. then he continues the mental abuse and manipulations by telling him he's weak because he DOESNT HAVE HATE. then itachi must have a lot of freaking hate because he's so overpowered.

Not really overpowered. Skilled and experienced, unlike Sasuke spam, would I say. Also Itachi is a good guy, so... He`s better in most things.

12. and so as a direct result of itachi's actions (oro helped a little by feeding the darkness and making it fester quicker), sasuke leaves konoha and tries to kill naruto, one of the only peopel who gives a ;);););) about him. he wouldnt have done this, if he planned on coming back one day.

If it weren`t for Tobi and there Sasuke was finished, he perhaps would come back.

13. despite all this, itachi goes for YET ANOTHER ROUND of tsukiyomi in their final fight, pretending to rip sasuke's eye out. does this strike you as a well balanced man? and i wonder what itachi planned to do if oro DIDNT come out, or if jiraiya DIDNT come back to the hotel, or if sasuke just happened to die alone in the forest against gaara to buy naruto and sakura time, like he was about to do. his whole plans hinged on sasuke being evil enough to not throw his life away protecting konoha comrades.

Itachi never tried to kill Sasuke, but if Sasuke died against Gaara, it would mean Sasuke was not strong enough to even fight Itachi. Itachi also did his best to help Sasuke.

14. sasuke defeats him and completes his objective, onyl to discover he'd been lied to and uchihas he wanted to avenge were scum, and itachi was the one person who did care (in his own cold twisted way).

Itachi didn`t plan this. It was Tobi`s fault. He even tried to prevent Sasuke by burning Tobi.

so can you really blame sasuke for the way he became? no wonder the boy snapped.

Yes, it was his decision. It wasn`t Itachi begging Sasuke to destroy Konoha.

itachi is like the joker. he takes heroes and tears them down to villain status, and doesnt even care if innocent people get killed in the process. to itachi, naruto was completely disposable and a means to an end (ms sasuke).

He did what he was asked to do and was considered best. As far as I remember Itachi never truly planned to kill Naruto.


In green.

[nine-tails chakra armor]

in all of this bath mouthing itachi. yea hes messed up but what made him this way the only thing we know was he was a great ninja from the leaf, loved his village and loved his brother. so he loved the twisted village that ordered him to be a mass murderer. remember danzo said many ninja have to do what itachi did doesnt make them bad but they do it for the village. remember itachi made a sacrafce doing what he did. look at this itachi doesnt really kill anyone fromthe leaf yea he toutres thembut never kills. of all the time any of the leaf have been caught by his sharingan they all survive it. with kakashi itachi never attacked him same with the two times he caught naruto. he fights to defend himself. notice kisame was always the one attacking and if itachi was on his own he just delys not really looking for a true fight. the only one he put effort into was the fight with sasuke and he lost that one on purpose so who is mess up? what itachi did to sasuke is what the village did to naruto though the mential anguish may not have been the same so im just sayin blame the village for sasukebeing messed up not itachi.

[TatsumiTora]

With the difference that you can actually influence the outcome of your own life -- unless your life is Naruto. Then you'll have to negotiate with Kishi! LOL

Hmm, negotiating with Kishimoto how my life should be... Sounds interesting! *good guy pose* :)

[Marajsky]

Yeah i know, people clearly blame Sauske and try not to understand him.
It's sad getting all this hate, because he's clearly just being manipulated with his emotions and there tough emotions! No one will truly understand unless something as awful had happened to him lol xD

I don't blame him, i feel for him! :/

I agree 100%, I feel sorry for him, no wonder he cracked!

[Jutsu Junkie]

in all of this bath mouthing itachi. yea hes messed up but what made him this way the only thing we know was he was a great ninja from the leaf, loved his village and loved his brother. so he loved the twisted village that ordered him to be a mass murderer. remember danzo said many ninja have to do what itachi did doesnt make them bad but they do it for the village. remember itachi made a sacrafce doing what he did. look at this itachi doesnt really kill anyone fromthe leaf yea he toutres thembut never kills. of all the time any of the leaf have been caught by his sharingan they all survive it. with kakashi itachi never attacked him same with the two times he caught naruto. he fights to defend himself. notice kisame was always the one attacking and if itachi was on his own he just delys not really looking for a true fight. the only one he put effort into was the fight with sasuke and he lost that one on purpose so who is mess up? what itachi did to sasuke is what the village did to naruto though the mential anguish may not have been the same so im just sayin blame the village for sasukebeing messed up not itachi.

Wrong. Itachi killed all the Uchiha, save for his brother, which means he in fact did kill many members of the Leaf, not all of whom were connected to the coup (i.e. babies). All those other ninjas are evil also. Ninjas in general are evil people. They are mercenary assassins. Your thinking is flawed if you think that being capable of indiscriminate mass murder simply because a superior orders it is a positive trait. That doesn't make the story bad, just the judgement of some of its fans suspect. If you can't see mass murder as unethical, I don't know what to tell you. Doing it for "the Village" is no different from the classical defense of evil dictators everywhere: "I did it for my people." That's always the excuse -- and the tools that carry out such orders are just as guilty. It wasn't convincing when Stalin said it, and it's not convincing when you say it on behalf of Danzo -- or Itachi. The fact remains that genocide isn't a sane, moral, or even pragmatic military or political solution.

[athoatho]

Wrong. Itachi killed all the Uchiha, save for his brother, which means he in fact did kill many members of the Leaf, not all of whom were connected to the coup (i.e. babies). All those other ninjas are evil also. Ninjas in general are evil people. They are mercenary assassins. Your thinking is flawed if you think that being capable of indiscriminate mass murder simply because a superior orders it is a positive trait. That doesn't make the story bad, just the judgement of some of its fans suspect. If you can't see mass murder as unethical, I don't know what to tell you. Doing it for "the Village" is no different from the classical defense of evil dictators everywhere: "I did it for my people." That's always the excuse -- and the tools that carry out such orders are just as guilty. It wasn't convincing when Stalin said it, and it's not convincing when you say it on behalf of Danzo -- or Itachi. The fact remains that genocide isn't a sane, moral, or even pragmatic military or political solution.

you are completely right ( genocide isn't a sane, moral, or even pragmatic military or political solution ) but this apply only to Danzo
Itachi had of two choices :
1. do nothing and let Danzo`s eliminate all his clan ( including Sasuke )
2. do the dirty work himself to save his brother.
3.
there was no third choice
so you cannot blame Itachi for the decision of mass murdering his clan this thing was to be done with or without him
regards

[Vornmusion]

All of these were done when clearly Kishi planned to have Itachi be the big evil, essentially Madara.

It's a shame because Itachi is a much better viliain than a nameless Tobi and a dead Madara. :|
Instead, we have Itachi Twist.

This is why only Part 1 exists. Part 2 is fanfiction.

[Jutsu Junkie]

you are completely right ( genocide isn't a sane, moral, or even pragmatic military or political solution ) but this apply only to Danzo
Itachi had of two choices :
1. do nothing and let Danzo`s eliminate all his clan ( including Sasuke )
2. do the dirty work himself to save his brother.
3.
there was no third choice
so you cannot blame Itachi for the decision of mass murdering his clan this thing was to be done with or without him
regards

There was a clear third choice. Considering he had the ability to kill off an entire clan of prohibitively strong ninja, he could have taken out Donzo and the Elders. Then, if he still cared so much for his Leaf village, he could have killed off the conspirators as well. Let's not kid ourselves: killing Donzo and the Elders is, logically speaking, less challenging than killing off an entire ninja clan -- even if you account for the element of surprise. He also could have kidnapped Sasuke and let the Elders dirty their hands with mass murder. In the end, he'd have achieved the same thing and avoided being a party to a crime against humanity.

The Elders needed him, not the other way around.

[Vornmusion]

There was a clear third choice. Considering he had the ability to kill off an entire clan of prohibitively strong ninja, he could have taken out Donzo and the Elders. Then, if he still cared so much for his Leaf village, he could have killed off the conspirators as well. Let's not kid ourselves: killing Donzo and the Elders is, logically speaking, less challenging than killing off an entire ninja clan -- even if you account for the element of surprise. He also could have kidnapped Sasuke and let the Elders dirty their hands with mass murder. In the end, he'd have achieved the same thing and avoided being a party to a crime against humanity.

The Elders needed him, not the other way around.
That would of been intelligent however. That's a no-no.

[Jutsu Junkie]

That would of been intelligent however. That's a no-no.

True. Sometimes I forget we are arguing over the choices of characters who consistently fail at everything but combat and looking cool. It's pathetic, really.

[Fuuin]

Tobi's fault. One thing I hoped Sasuke would ask Itachi is if their father was truly about to lead a rebellion, or if Tobi had some other leverage that forced this, perhaps Tobi had them under a genjutsu similar to the Mizukage's. I mean, Kotoamatsukami may be the strongest genjutsu short of Infinite Tsukiyomi, but Tobi's manipulative powers trump anything we've seen cast on a character in a fight. We just might find out that the clan perished as a result of "his" direct meddling.

As for the topic of Itachi and Sasuke, knowing what Itachi did for the village, you'd think Sasuke would have doubts about his determination to destroy the Leaf. But he doesn't...for the most part. He'll come around though. He's done less damage overall than Nagato and the other Akatsuki.

Who has Sasuke killed?
Orochimaru
Deidara
Danzo
He tried to kill Karin she just didn't die.
Tried to kill Sakura but Naruto saved her.
I don't think he was actually trying to kill Naruto at Valley of the End, but that's up in the air.
He's killed some Samurai.
Tried to kill Bee.
Oh, and Itachi.

So ultimately, the only people he's taken out were people who deserved to die. People who didn't deserve it were spared by "fate" and he more or less left it at that. He's an ;););););););), but Naruto will change him and we'll get Team 7 back for the final battle.

As for Itachi, he may well be the best shinobi of all time if he had the discipline to kill his whole clan for the greater good of the village. If he hadn't, and the coup was acted out, Sasuke would've either been dead in the civil war, or irreversibly damaged. Itachi made it so Konoha could continue exist, gave his brother's generation a shot at the future. He's an anti-hero and did just what anti-hero's do; great actions at great personal expense.

[Jutsu Junkie]

Um, no. Itachi is not an anti-hero. Anti-heroes are simply protagonists motivated by base desires, such as vengeance or greed, which still often lead them to heroic action. Itachi doesn't fit the bill. Itachi is just an evil character motivated by a misguided sense of duty, not the protagonist (Naruto)-- or even the antagonist (Tobi, now). And as I've said before, he could have easily accomplished his purpose without genocide, which is what makes him evil. Influencing his brother into a dead-end future filled with hate so he can gain the personal satisfaction of retribution against his own ill-conceived actions is just another example of his evil.

[sho7]

To me, all in all Itachi I think let Sasuke beat him like wasnt trying his hardest or let go in the end because its his little brother, im pretty sure I would do the same thing.

[Kuromaki]

Because they like him too much to see that he is a majorly flawed character,

[Utsusemi]

I feel sorry for both of them. Up until the truth was revealed about Itachi to Sasuke i didnt really like Sasuke's character or attitude ... but dont get me wrong hes a strong character and etc etc... but i dont and wouldnt blame itachi.. what would be the state of the uchiha clan if Itachi didnt do what he did.. alot of things would be different... but oh well cant complain now hes dont what hess done and nothings gonna change it really :)

[Jutsu Junkie]

To me, all in all Itachi I think let Sasuke beat him like wasnt trying his hardest or let go in the end because its his little brother, im pretty sure I would do the same thing.

Itachi wanted to be defeated. He didn't simply let Sasuke beat him. He could have just avoided Sasuke if he didn't want to lose, because he's a better ninja than Sasuke.

Because they like him too much to see that he is a majorly flawed character,

Probably true.

I feel sorry for both of them. Up until the truth was revealed about Itachi to Sasuke i didnt really like Sasuke's character or attitude ... but dont get me wrong hes a strong character and etc etc... but i dont and wouldnt blame itachi.. what would be the state of the uchiha clan if Itachi didnt do what he did.. alot of things would be different... but oh well cant complain now hes dont what hess done and nothings gonna change it really :)

It's not about changing the past, but realizing the reality of the situation. Itachi is a mass murderer, and while he did it for the Cause, he didn't need to do it at all -- least of all for the Cause. Mass murder is always bad for the Cause. He's a failure as a person, beyond his capabilities as a ninja. Just like all mass murderers. Trying to make him out to be some kind of hero or anti-hero figure is like fitting a square peg into a round hole. It doesn't work. If Kishi intended Itachi to be something other than evil, he broke his story. This isn't the common view for two reasons: first, it's fiction (clearly people would feel differently if he were a real mass murderer), and second, some people desperately need Itachi to be good, because the idea of identifying with or being a fan of a baby-killer is repellent -- as it should be.

[athoatho]

the Idea of kidnapping Sasuke is smart, but as you said we are talking about characters and it is all fiction, so i think Kishi didnt gave him that choice ( or probably Madara didnt )

[roullex uchiha]

How did Itachi messed up Sasuke.It was Itachi who made Sasuke this powerful.
So if Itachi didn't whipe out his clan, Sasuke wouldn't be this powerful.

[slyfoxx]

i blame the third he was aways indicisive, after the fox attack instead of isolating the uchiha he should have worked with them to find the thruth (keep your friends close but your enemies closer). And even if danzo and the elders did insist the decision was his to make.

but also understand we 'er trying to make sense of all the gaps and plotholes kishi is throwing at us not to mention the lies of tobi. Itachi was suppose to be the evil genius that killed his best friend and wipe out his clan. we were fed lies that they had to kill thier best friend to get thier ms, But the flashback of him and shinshui wasnt all that evil i think shinshui(sorry if i misspelled it) commited suicide. and how was the whole clan that weak. it dont make sense. We could go on and on but dont blame itachi sasuke was happy in team seven thats why he felt he needed to break those bonds. When itachi died sasuke coulda went back the hero who defeated the one who killed his clan, but he decided on a different path. Everyone is responsible for their selves. Blame sasuke for sasuke.
.

[Kuromaki]

How did Itachi messed up Sasuke.It was Itachi who made Sasuke this powerful.
So if Itachi didn't whipe out his clan, Sasuke wouldn't be this powerful.
By messed up he means that it is Itachi's fault that Sasuke is the mentally unstable person he is today. Sasuke could still have become strong without having the hatred that Itachi instilled in him by abusing him over and over.

[KillerKunoichi]

Yes, Itachi's actions messed Sasuke up.....but really it's those who are responsible for Itachi's actions that are to blame (Danzo, Elders, The Third, the Uchiha conspirators).

Not that it excuses everything, but it's easy to forget that Itachi was still a child when he killed his clan & set up Sasuke's path of vengeance. He did what he thought was best for Sasuke at the time. Looking back as an adult now, he has shown some regret at his choices.

Fact is, Itachi never should have had the burden placed on him to make such 'adult' choices & play a double agent at that age in the first place....regardless of his genius, he was still just a child. The adults should have dealt with the situation.

[Uchiha Sora]

Sure he messed him up, but he had his reasons. Its not like he did what he did for the lulz like he said he did in part 1.

Sasuke may have even turned back to the good side if Madara/Tobi didn't tell him Itachi's backstory. It all turned bad when Madara said that Itachi valued Sasuke more than the village. Thats what really turned Sasuke around. Any hope for Sasuke returning was crushed by Tobi's explanation.

Sasuke hadn't been messed up in the head until Tobi came along. He was the same as Naruto more or less.

No you can't blame Sasuke for being screwed up, but Itachi's plan would have worked out okay if Tobi didn't put his 2 cents in.

[megabbaut]

But now that Itachi said he was disappointed in Sasuke, he might become a good guy again.

[Uchiha Sora]

Funny thing is Itachi even predicted Tobi would confront Sasuke and planted ammy in Sasuke's eyes. Too bad Tobi survived it

Wrong. Itachi killed all the Uchiha, save for his brother, which means he in fact did kill many members of the Leaf, not all of whom were connected to the coup (i.e. babies). All those other ninjas are evil also. Ninjas in general are evil people. They are mercenary assassins. Your thinking is flawed if you think that being capable of indiscriminate mass murder simply because a superior orders it is a positive trait. That doesn't make the story bad, just the judgement of some of its fans suspect. If you can't see mass murder as unethical, I don't know what to tell you. Doing it for "the Village" is no different from the classical defense of evil dictators everywhere: "I did it for my people." That's always the excuse -- and the tools that carry out such orders are just as guilty. It wasn't convincing when Stalin said it, and it's not convincing when you say it on behalf of Danzo -- or Itachi. The fact remains that genocide isn't a sane, moral, or even pragmatic military or political solution.
Exactly, they're ninjas in a different, fictional world. In that world people kill eachother just to graduate from an academy. They did it for the village. It was the only way to safely solve the problem. What were they gonna do? Go in and say:
Police: Hey guys, everyone involved with the coup step over here, and everyone who isn't over there.
Uchiha: lulzokaynoproblem
They didn't know who was involved at all. The whole clan could've been on it. Not to mention Danzo could've just wanted eyes for himself. Ninja have to do whatever it takes for their village, and to ensure its safetly, they had Itachi roflstomp them all.

Sure that would be unethical by our standards, but this is a ninja world. Where, like I said, people kill eachother just to graduate from the academy. Not to mention Itachi was essentiallly preventing another ninja war. And he also had to kill his emotions to do it

[Super Sanin 3]

Itachi's plans were to pry Sasuke away from the truth (make him love Konoha, think the Uchiha clan was a prideful and loving clan, and to be the hero of the clan for killing him). In addition, Itachi wanted himself to die by an Uchiha's hand for the crimes he has done, as to see it fit. Even more, Itachi wanted Sasuke to get the power to achieve the EMS (which he needed the MS for) so he could defeat Tobi, the "evil" of the manga. The problem was that he tried sculpting Sasuke too much into what he thought was best for him, and you just can't do that. They'll be what they'll be. Itachi has been enlightened from this, and now pasts on the challenge to Naruto in hopes that he can change Sasuke without having to force him out of it.

That's just how i see it.

[KillerKunoichi]

Funny thing is Itachi even predicted Tobi would confront Sasuke and planted ammy in Sasuke's eyes. Too bad Tobi survived it


yes! Itachi is always ten steps ahead....even in death

[Jutsu Junkie]

But now that Itachi said he was disappointed in Sasuke, he might become a good guy again.

Not likely. I think he's committed. The only thing that would change anything is Tobi obstructing him in some meaningful way. Or Naruto managing to TNJ him into the ground.


Exactly, they're ninjas in a different, fictional world. In that world people kill eachother just to graduate from an academy. They did it for the village. It was the only way to safely solve the problem. What were they gonna do? Go in and say:
Police: Hey guys, everyone involved with the coup step over here, and everyone who isn't over there.
Uchiha: lulzokaynoproblem
They didn't know who was involved at all. The whole clan could've been on it. Not to mention Danzo could've just wanted eyes for himself. Ninja have to do whatever it takes for their village, and to ensure its safetly, they had Itachi roflstomp them all.

Sure that would be unethical by our standards, but this is a ninja world. Where, like I said, people kill eachother just to graduate from the academy.

Actually, no. They don't have a different ethical regime. People in militaries around the (real) world are ordered to kill all the time. And Leaf ninjas aren't told they must kill each other to graduate, just that life is on the line and they are allowed to kill in order to succeed. In fact, killing is more given a wink and a nod, rather than being specifically encouraged. You'll note that few people actually died during the Chunnin exams. Not to mention that many ninjas stay Gennin for life, having in fact graduated, either because they don't want to take on the challenge, or because they don't feel they can reach that goal. They just stay average foot soldiers, rather than leaders, which is what Chunnin and Jonnin are.

Also, I've already given examples of clear alternatives to Itachi's actions. They are both obvious and preferable to what he actually did. There's a reason he was branded a criminal after he slaughtered his clan. Even in retrospect, no one but Danzo and the Elders believed it was a morally defensible act.

[Uchiha Sora]

Actually, no. They don't have a different ethical regime. People in militaries around the (real) world are ordered to kill all the time. And Leaf ninjas aren't told they must kill each other to graduate, just that life is on the line and they are allowed to kill in order to succeed. In fact, killing is more given a wink and a nod, rather than being specifically encouraged. You'll note that few people actually died during the Chunnin exams. Not to mention that many ninjas stay Gennin for life, having in fact graduated, either because they don't want to take on the challenge, or because they don't feel they can reach that goal. They just stay average foot soldiers, rather than leaders, which is what Chunnin and Jonnin are.

Also, I've already given examples of clear alternatives to Itachi's actions. They are both obvious and preferable to what he actually did. There's a reason he was branded a criminal after he slaughtered his clan. Even in retrospect, no one but Danzo and the Elders believed it was a morally defensible act.
I was talking about The Hidden Mist. Zabuza had to do that, and I think Kisame did too.

A lot of people died in the exams. Mainly during the forest of death phase. Thats why only 15 or so showed up at the prelims. Killing wasn't necessarily encouraged during the exams, but they didn't necessarily care if you died either.

Nobody but Danzo and the elders... Thats 3 out of the 4 people, so you can't really say "No one but Danzo and the elders," which implies they are the minority when they are in fact the majority. Anyways Hiruzen wasn't completely against it, he just needed more time IIRC.

Then, if he still cared so much for his Leaf village, he could have killed off the conspirators as well. Let's not kid ourselves: killing Donzo and the Elders is, logically speaking, less challenging than killing off an entire ninja clan
Killing the elders? yeah sure. They're featless AND hypeless. Killing Danzo and Hiruzen? Hell no. Have you read the manga up to the Danzo fight? No way in hell Danzo would be taken down by a kid Itachi. Only reason Danzo lost to Sasuke was cuz Danzo was holding back for Tobi. Killing the elders,Danzo, and Hiruzen would leave the village defenseless, and without a leader of some form. Which would again breed the same results as leaving the Uchiha alone.

Not to mention he had Tobi/Madara helping him. He couldn't do that alone. And its not like it was the whole clan VS him. He probably took them in waves as he went through their homes and streets. It WAS night time after all.

Anyway, Itachi hated war. He witnessed War as a 4 year old. He was a pacifist. The only way to stop a civil war, which would in turn cause a SHINOBI war, was to eliminate the Uchiha. Killing only the conspirators would sstill leave problems. The ones left alive could have been enraged and plotted revenge, which would lead to more turmoil.

All I'm saying is, don't blame Itachi for everything thats wrong with Sasuke. And don't blame him for being unethical either. Because if he didn't follow orders, it would only end up with the Uchiha clan's reputation and remaining residents dead. And Sasuke would have been put in the same lonely boat again.

[BrifleX]

It's all tobi's fault. Itachi had it all under control until that moment, sasuke didnt want to be any were near tobi at first but now there buddies......for now!

and in the latest manga! itachi talked to sasuke and sasuke told him how he doesnt want to be evil, he wants to be a good guy (basicly what he said) and itachi basicly said that he made a mistake. itachi rushed by sasuke giving him the feeling that he wasnt needed atm ( in my opinion ) poor sasuke, i hope they fight and itachi owns him though....older brother wins again :D

[Jutsu Junkie]

I was talking about The Hidden Mist. Zabuza had to do that, and I think Kisame did too.

A lot of people died in the exams. Mainly during the forest of death phase. Thats why only 15 or so showed up at the prelims. Killing wasn't necessarily encouraged during the exams, but they didn't necessarily care if you died either.

Nobody but Danzo and the elders... Thats 3 out of the 4 people, so you can't really say "No one but Danzo and the elders," which implies they are the minority when they are in fact the majority. Anyways Hiruzen wasn't completely against it, he just needed more time IIRC.


Killing the elders? yeah sure. They're featless AND hypeless. Killing Danzo and Hiruzen? Hell no. Have you read the manga up to the Danzo fight? No way in hell Danzo would be taken down by a kid Itachi. Only reason Danzo lost to Sasuke was cuz Danzo was holding back for Tobi. Killing the elders,Danzo, and Hiruzen would leave the village defenseless, and without a leader of some form. Which would again breed the same results as leaving the Uchiha alone.

Not to mention he had Tobi/Madara helping him. He couldn't do that alone. And its not like it was the whole clan VS him. He probably took them in waves as he went through their homes and streets. It WAS night time after all.

Anyway, Itachi hated war. He witnessed War as a 4 year old. He was a pacifist. The only way to stop a civil war, which would in turn cause a SHINOBI war, was to eliminate the Uchiha. Killing only the conspirators would sstill leave problems. The ones left alive could have been enraged and plotted revenge, which would lead to more turmoil.

All I'm saying is, don't blame Itachi for everything thats wrong with Sasuke. And don't blame him for being unethical either. Because if he didn't follow orders, it would only end up with the Uchiha clan's reputation and remaining residents dead. And Sasuke would have been put in the same lonely boat again.

Again, no. Itachi had access to Shisui's eye, and thereafter MS -- before he committed himself to genocide. That alone is probably capable of stopping the Elders, Danzo, and Hiruzen. All he'd need to do is persuade Hiruzen to kill Danzo (with Shisui's eye), and then go take care of the Elders. And as far as the Village's security is concerned, I'd think after decades (centuries?) of struggle between Senju and Uchiha, finally ending with a truce that didn't destroy them both, we'd realize that killing off the entire clan (who are trained and tasked with police powers, remember) is more wasteful of village security than killing off the two top ninjas.

There are always options, especially when dealing with demigod wizards.

That said, my point isn't that Itachi is solely to blame for Sasuke's actions, but that he's evil, and his actions towards his brother, especially after the massacre, were also evil. But it would also be foolish to somehow absolve Itachi for the responsibility of his influence in Sasuke's life. As you say, we are responsible for our actions, which means we are also responsible for how we use our influence.

[TobiramaSenju307]

He killed his clan for the sake of the village.
just because you commit genocide because of good intentions doesnt make you some heroic little angel. he chose to kill every single living thing in his path. no trial, no forgiveness.


If it wasnt Tobi who summoned and controlled Kurama no one would think that the already peaceful and quite clan in Konoha called Uchiha were organizing coup d'etat
uchihas were already upset with the way they were being treated. kyuubi attack just sped things up.


And this thread`s purpose is no more. If u ask me it didnt have any purpose from the very beginning
so why are you here? to be a troll and bash for no good reason?


If Tobi never had told Sasuke about it then this would never had happened.
yes it would. sasuke was evil the moment he betrayed everyone and tried to kill naruto
He did it for his brother.
is not a good enough justification

Even before his clan was murdered, Sasuke already was very arrogant and thought was superior to others.
where? i never saw evidence of this. he was actually a humble kind kid.

[Ongaku]

Yes I actually agree pretty closely with the OP here. Itachi definitely isn't as good of a character as the fans make him out to be..then again their usual reasoning behind their fanboyism is because "he's so cool!"

More so to add, Itachi was perfectly fine with brainwashing Sasuke and returning to Konoha and living his entire life in a genjutsu, against his will, no?Itachi's plans were to pry Sasuke away from the truth (make him love Konoha, think the Uchiha clan was a prideful and loving clan, and to be the hero of the clan for killing him). In addition, Itachi wanted himself to die by an Uchiha's hand for the crimes he has done, as to see it fit. Even more, Itachi wanted Sasuke to get the power to achieve the EMS (which he needed the MS for) so he could defeat Tobi, the "evil" of the manga. The problem was that he tried sculpting Sasuke too much into what he thought was best for him, and you just can't do that. They'll be what they'll be. Itachi has been enlightened from this, and now pasts on the challenge to Naruto in hopes that he can change Sasuke without having to force him out of it.

That's just how i see it.
Along with this though, he didn't really care for who or what happened, nor died in the process.

[JLI2infinity]

Yes I actually agree pretty closely with the OP here. Itachi definitely isn't as good of a character as the fans make him out to be..then again their usual reasoning behind their fanboyism is because "he's so cool!"

More so to add, Itachi was perfectly fine with brainwashing Sasuke and returning to Konoha and living his entire life in a genjutsu, against his will, no?
Along with this though, he didn't really care for who or what happened, nor died in the process.

Very true. One member stated that Itachi isn't an antihero but he really is, anitheroes can still be noble and just while operating with immoral practices such as stealing or killing. Itachi operates with a misguided sense of justice, even now that he has a second chance he blames Sasuke for the actions he's taken and is trying to avoid talking to his little brother. Itachi's actions were selfish no matter how much his fans try to stick up for him, he saved his own little brother but probably killed other Uchiha children who were just as innocent, or women who had no power anyways (what could the old shopkeeper woman who probably didn't even have the sharingan do?)

He saved Sasuke because he was too weak to finish him off because not only was he innocent but they were related. Then he proceeded to help Sasuke by ignoring the consequences of his actions like the guy above me said Itachi didn't care who died in the process. He had absolutely NO way of knowing Sasuke wouldn't kill Naruto for the Mangekyo Sharingan. He would've gotten the savior of the entire ninja world killed because he liked his little brother more.

Itachi claims to have given Sasuke the path for a better life but all he did was force Sasuke into the role Itachi wanted him to fulfill. Sasuke hasn't had much of a choice since he was 4 years old, Itachi basically planned Sasuke's life out for him, just so that Sasuke could absolve Itachi of his sins by killing him and then Sasuke could live a lie for the rest of his life. By joining the Akatsuki Sasuke was actually acting the way he wanted for the first time in his entire life (although he was still being manipulated). Itachi could've easily used MS to erase Sasuke's pain from the experience away and then let Sasuke live a life of peace without even being a ninja, but Itachi needed to have his own conscience wiped clean.

However even with all of this criticism it's not like any of us could've made a better choice as 16 year olds lol.

[Madara Uchiha7474]

i stoped reading after 4.

[Ongaku]

Very true. One member stated that Itachi isn't an antihero but he really is, anitheroes can still be noble and just while operating with immoral practices such as stealing or killing. Itachi operates with a misguided sense of justice, even now that he has a second chance he blames Sasuke for the actions he's taken and is trying to avoid talking to his little brother. Itachi's actions were selfish no matter how much his fans try to stick up for him, he saved his own little brother but probably killed other Uchiha children who were just as innocent, or women who had no power anyways (what could the old shopkeeper woman who probably didn't even have the sharingan do?)

He saved Sasuke because he was too weak to finish him off because not only was he innocent but they were related. Then he proceeded to help Sasuke by ignoring the consequences of his actions like the guy above me said Itachi didn't care who died in the process. He had absolutely NO way of knowing Sasuke wouldn't kill Naruto for the Mangekyo Sharingan. He would've gotten the savior of the entire ninja world killed because he liked his little brother more.

Itachi claims to have given Sasuke the path for a better life but all he did was force Sasuke into the role Itachi wanted him to fulfill. Sasuke hasn't had much of a choice since he was 4 years old, Itachi basically planned Sasuke's life out for him, just so that Sasuke could absolve Itachi of his sins by killing him and then Sasuke could live a lie for the rest of his life. By joining the Akatsuki Sasuke was actually acting the way he wanted for the first time in his entire life (although he was still being manipulated). Itachi could've easily used MS to erase Sasuke's pain from the experience away and then let Sasuke live a life of peace without even being a ninja, but Itachi needed to have his own conscience wiped clean.

However even with all of this criticism it's not like any of us could've made a better choice as 16 year olds lol.
I'm pretty sure he fits the bill of an anti-villain more than that of the anti hero, though other than that, precisely.