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K3nsh!n
02-15-2012, 02:30 AM
Well, truth be told, I already posted this in the sticky thread The Big Wager...
But then I felt that it deserved its own thread since it's so full of new ideas!! :D


So here it is...

Theory:
Tobi could be Fugaku Uchiha

Background:
He was the Leader of the Uchiha clan and Konoha Police force
Being the Clan leader he had access to the Uchiha's most privy affairs...
This explains his knowledge about the Uchiha history, Mangekyou sharingan's abilities etc

Explanation:
Some time before the Kyuubi's attack, say a few years, Fugaku met Madara.
Madara was by then nearing his end and needed a proud and capable Uchiha to carry on his will. Naturally, Madara first sought Fugaku since he was the Clan leader. Madara told Fugaku about his plans(resurrection of Juubi and all) to which Fugaku agreed. Madara also taught Fugaka some of his techniques so that Fugaku would be more capable of completing said task. So they were a Sensei and student pair.

By this time Madara's own experiment with Hasirama's DNA had lead to the discovery of Zetsu. Due to his search for Sage's source of power, he also knew about Nagato...
After his death, Fugaku was left with Madara's rinnegan and Zetsu...

However the Kyuubi was already sealed within Kushina...
It's possible Madara knew that the seal of female Jinchuriki weakens during her pregnancy and told this to Fugaku, or it could be that Fugaku found about it himself from some old records about Mito...
Either way Fugaku knew, and waited patiently for the right time...

Few years passed...
Kushina was pregnant and was about to enter labour.
Her transfer to the secret location was completely covert but with the minor exception that Kushina stopped to chat with Mikoto, Fugaku's wife.
Mikoto could have casually told Fugaku about Kushina, "Oh dear! I just met the Fourth's wife! Looks like she is due with her child! They were moving her to the hospital...I hope her child and our Sasuke become good friends!"

Fuagaku realized that Kushina was actually being taken to a secret hideout.
So he immediately set out, put on his mask so no one would recognize him and tracked Kushina before she reached the hideout! He hid his presence and entered the hideout along with her. Fugaku was within the barrier zone before it was even set up-which is why Minato found it surprising as to how he could have slipped through it without anyone knowing!
So Fugaku waited for the precise moment when the seal would be the weakest and well, you know the rest!!

A few more years passed...
Due to Fugaku's failed attempt to capture the Kyuubi, the Uchiha were blamed for it! Anger and resentment against Konoha took root wihin the Uchiha, because of the unfair judgement against them.

So Fuagaku changed his tactics! He thought it would be the best to lead the revolt and strike Konoha, weaken it and then Naruto , now about Sasuke's age, would be completely defenseless and he would get a second opportunity to get hold of the Kyuubi. But then he came to know about a spy among the Uchiha and rumour was that it was his own beloved son, Itachi!!

Fugaku wanted to confirm this, but he couldn't directly confront his son. What if Itachi really was the spy? And moreover, not the only one? He had to know if there were any more other spies, before he lead the revolt.

Fugaku knew he couldn't trust anyone if he couldn't even trust his own son Itachi. So instead he replaced himself with a special Zetsu clone as the Clan leader, put on his mask again and infiltrated the Uchiha ranks as Tobi!! While he searched for traitors among the clan, he also began to fuel the revolt against Konoha from within!

However this part of his plan failed!
Itachi found out Tobi's true identity(as Fugaku) before Tobi could confirm Itachi's(as a double-agent).
Itachi confronted Tobi i.e Fugaku. Through him Fuagaku knew that Uchiha's so called "secret revolt" had not really been a secret and Konoha had been aware of it for a long time. The Konoha elders had voted to wipe out the entire Uchiha Clan. Their counter-attack was already under way and that there was no way to stop it! Itachi was sent only as an alternative, wipe the clan on his own, become a murderer and Uchiha would still retain their respectful place in history!
Fugaku realized there was no way the Uchiha could win! There was way too little time left to prepare...

However Itachi knew he couldn't pull off his feat alone no matter how skilled he was. Itachi needed help, so he offered Fugaku a bargain: Help him wipe out the Uchiha Clan(except Sasuke) and thus help the clan keep its name untarnished. And in return Itachi would never speak a word about Fugaku's involvement with Madara, Kyuubi's attack, his true plans about the Juubi, etc and would also help Fugaku fake his death!

Fugaku thought it was a fair bargain considering the time-limit and conditions under which he had to make a choice.
He could trust Itachi for his promise of secrecy. This way he could also fake his death and the elders would never know about him being alive. This would make it more convenient for him to make his moves in the shadows(like the formation of Akatsuki).

So Fugaku helped Itachi and faked his own death(a Zetsu clone). While Itachi fled and became wanted for Uchiha Clan's massacre, Fugaku began to find ways of bringing his plan aka Moon Eye Plan to fruition all the while considered "dead" by Konoha and its elders. Fugaku convinced Nagato(or was it Yahiko?) to form Akatsuki(for his own goals) which Itachi later joined to keep eye on Tobi's activities!!

It's missing a few points like Shisui and Danzo's involvement, especially the timeline, but this is the best I could come up with right now and it's already become so long.`|(
Also I know it's a bit far-fetched but then there are Tobi=Obito theories which are even more far-fetched!

jkd29663
02-15-2012, 02:45 AM
I like this theory and agree, but i thought that Itachi didn't know his real identity im pretty sure he didnt. i feel that works fine tho because if he is tobi faking his own death to his son couldn't be that hard he is incredible powerful/sneaky

Kyūbi no Yōko
02-15-2012, 05:42 AM
Pretty nice theory. Fugaku is really a big possibility. Though there are some additions to be made (of which I cannot think now)

Maruko
02-15-2012, 05:53 AM
Fuuuugaku being Trollbi is quite a good theory,we know that Tobi is weaker than Itachi because when Tobi was talking to Sasuke about Itachi he said that he would be dead if Itachi had known about Tobi and his knowledge.

I wish i could use Bieberyomi on Tobi.
In the world if Bieberyomi i control time and space,even the sounds you hear.
From this moment,i will play this Bieber song for 72 hours.
Tobi:*scream*

TatsumiTora
02-15-2012, 06:35 AM
This theory actually sounds plausible... I like it. :)

Poodle
02-15-2012, 08:27 AM
its-not-bad...making-him-their-father-adds-more-shock-value-to-it...and-at-least-explains-alot-of-his-interest-in-Sasuke

BozothyClown
02-15-2012, 12:51 PM
The only point I cant see being true is that Itachi struck a deal with Fugaku/Tobi to help him wipe out the village and let him live.

Itachi wiped out his clan to protect the village and keep peace, I think people forget that. Itachi was really a good guy just trying to keep the ultimate peace throughout the world. So letting the man who tried to create havoc and destruction just run free seems unlikely for Itachi.

Now im not trying to disprove your theory here but thats the one roadblock I see when I read it. But its a great idea and I love the detail with it. Just cant wait for Tobi's identity to be shown! Come on Kishi give us what we want :)

DShika
02-15-2012, 01:12 PM
Honestly the best theory to date. Just one small detail to ask... it's not clear in the manga but in episode 248 when tobi and minato fight, after tobi ges hit by the rasengan his left arm melts away (white ooze) zetsu style... Was Fugaku (if Tobi) already just a shell???

K3nsh!n
02-24-2012, 05:51 AM
Thanks guys!! I'm glad you enjoyed it!!:)

The only point I cant see being true is that Itachi struck a deal with Fugaku/Tobi to help him wipe out the village and let him live.

Itachi wiped out his clan to protect the village and keep peace, I think people forget that. Itachi was really a good guy just trying to keep the ultimate peace throughout the world. So letting the man who tried to create havoc and destruction just run free seems unlikely for Itachi.

Now im not trying to disprove your theory here but thats the one roadblock I see when I read it. But its a great idea and I love the detail with it. Just cant wait for Tobi's identity to be shown! Come on Kishi give us what we want :)
No matter how skilled he was it is impossible that Itachi could have wiped out the entire clan on his own! Someone i.e Tobi did help him with his task!
And Tobi wouldn't have helped Itachi unless he had something to gain from it...
So it makes sense that Itachi did indeed make some kind of deal with Tobi.
If Tobi is Fugaku, Itachi helping him fake his death is exactly the sort of deal that would appeal to him!

Just one small detail to ask... it's not clear in the manga but in episode 248 when tobi and minato fight, after tobi ges hit by the rasengan his left arm melts away (white ooze) zetsu style... Was Fugaku (if Tobi) already just a shell???
Like you said it's not clear in manga. I wouldn't give the anime more credit than the manga-it could easily be an error in interpretation by animators...
So we will have to wait and see till Kishi reveals more about it in the manga...

Chapter 575
Orochimaru and Madara had some connections, most probably through Fugaku.
It could be that Fugaku gave Oro Hashirama's DNA (either Zetsu or original- not sure if Oro or Madara discovered Zetsu). In return Oro performed some experiments on Fugaku, which is why he has that Zetsu-type body. Fugaku obviously didn't tell Oro anything about his plans nor how he came to access Hashirama's DNA. But most likely Oro found out much about it himself-about Tobi's connections with Madara and their plan-this explains why Tobi was so frustated about Oro's know-how about his secrets...
It was by using this DNA sample that Oro did experiments on newborn babies of which only Yamato survived...

zerosameri
02-24-2012, 07:02 PM
Does the fact that he is clearly dead and clearly had no type of motive for this matter?

Sasuke3177
02-24-2012, 09:02 PM
This is a nice theory, I wouldn't count it out, that's for sure... Yeah the Tobi=Obito theories don't even make sense, why would Obito go after the whole Ninja World... Anyways another fun fact about this theory means... Sasuke and Naruto's Dad's also fought eachother :)

kalmeast
02-24-2012, 10:28 PM
lol...i don't think this is far-fetched at all...I think this is a great theory with very good moments. I personally think Fugaku would be a perfect revelation as tobi and thus i agree wit ya...

from the point where u say Itachi found out about Tobi as Fugaku. I think it'd be most likely he didn't.

K3nsh!n
02-25-2012, 07:14 AM
lol...i don't think this is far-fetched at all...I think this is a great theory with very good moments. I personally think Fugaku would be a perfect revelation as tobi and thus i agree wit ya...

from the point where u say Itachi found out about Tobi as Fugaku. I think it'd be most likely he didn't.

hehe...
Thanks for the support !!:D
Looks like Zero's still pissed off at me!!

That part about Itachi finding out about Tobi's identity-it's somewhat biased! I just couldn't bring myself to acknowledge that Itachi could have by been fooled by Tobi into believing that he was Madara!!`:oops:

Kyūbi no Yōko
02-26-2012, 11:40 AM
Could be like this too :

Fugaku was the strategist / organiser of Uchiha's coup d'etat, but he realised that he would fail because he knew the ANBU and others had heard of the plan, so he came up with something else. With his close relations to Zetsu he replaced himself with a Zetsu clone, something that the Sharingan cannot see. So Itachi didn't know he only killed a Zetsu clone and NOT Fugaku.

Itachi had no knowledge that Fugaku = Tobi so he was fooled, while making plans with Tobi to slay the Uchiha clan, Tobi (Fugaku) had already replaced himself with the Zetsu Clone.

Basically Itachi did not know who Tobi was, he also did NOT think about Tobi being Fugaku because he was very sure he killed Fugaku during the Massacre, but he had only killed a Zetsu Clone.

zerosameri
02-26-2012, 12:43 PM
Looks like Zero's still pissed off at me!!

About what?

NagatoGod_of_Pain
02-26-2012, 01:32 PM
Well, this is certainly identical to my Fugaku theory. We have some slight differences, but basically the same.

http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106718

JashinSama
02-26-2012, 06:33 PM
Wasn't Fugaku and (sasuke's mother) killed by Itachi during the Uchiha Massacre?

I'm pretty sure they were slaughtered as Itachi stood before Sasuke.

Unless if you know, it wasn't Fugaku in Fugaku's house that died.

Belisarius
02-26-2012, 10:33 PM
Well it should be obvious Madara's body was too badly ravaged from his battle with the first. So he used some sort of body transfer jutsu, maybe similar to orochimaru's, and transfered into a zetsu clone. That explains Itachi's "he's only a shell of his former self" line. It explains how he survived the amaterasu trap itachi implanted in sasuke. It explains how losing an arm to the microscopic bugs while fighting danzo's guards was no big deal for him. It explains the white stuff falling from his body after the 4th hit him with a rasengan. It should be pretty clear by now Tobi is Madara in a white zetsu clone body. Even in the new game for ps3 and x-box 360 he's titled as Madara.

The question now is no longer who is tobi, but rather what does tobi want with sasuke? Orochimaru wanted sasuke's eyes. I think Madara wants sasuke's body. He couldn't take Itachi's body, as Itachi was sick and dying and even if he wasn't he could still beat him in a fight.

K3nsh!n
02-26-2012, 10:55 PM
Could be like this too :

Fugaku was the strategist / organiser of Uchiha's coup d'etat, but he realised that he would fail because he knew the ANBU and others had heard of the plan, so he came up with something else. With his close relations to Zetsu he replaced himself with a Zetsu clone, something that the Sharingan cannot see. So Itachi didn't know he only killed a Zetsu clone and NOT Fugaku.

Itachi had no knowledge that Fugaku = Tobi so he was fooled, while making plans with Tobi to slay the Uchiha clan, Tobi (Fugaku) had already replaced himself with the Zetsu Clone.

Basically Itachi did not know who Tobi was, he also did NOT think about Tobi being Fugaku because he was very sure he killed Fugaku during the Massacre, but he had only killed a Zetsu Clone.

But then that would mean Tobi(Fugaku) tricked Itachi into believing that he was Madara:(. It's something the fanboy within me simply won't accept!!`;)


About what?
Err...didn't you try and neg rep me once-but failed? :D

Well, this is certainly identical to my Fugaku theory. We have some slight differences, but basically the same.

http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106718

Well, they are bound to be similar since both are Tobi=Fugaku theories-but they are NOT identical!! There are some significant differences...

Wasn't Fugaku and (sasuke's mother) killed by Itachi during the Uchiha Massacre?

I'm pretty sure they were slaughtered as Itachi stood before Sasuke.

Unless if you know, it wasn't Fugaku in Fugaku's house that died.

Clearly you haven't read the theory-I already explained it all.

Well it should be obvious Madara's body was too badly ravaged from his battle with the first. So he used some sort of body transfer jutsu, maybe similar to orochimaru's, and transfered into a zetsu clone. That explains Itachi's "he's only a shell of his former self" line. It explains how he survived the amaterasu trap itachi implanted in sasuke. It explains how losing an arm to the microscopic bugs while fighting danzo's guards was no big deal for him. It explains the white stuff falling from his body after the 4th hit him with a rasengan. It should be pretty clear by now Tobi is Madara in a white zetsu clone body. Even in the new game for ps3 and x-box 360 he's titled as Madara.

The question now is no longer who is tobi, but rather what does tobi want with sasuke? Orochimaru wanted sasuke's eyes. I think Madara wants sasuke's body. He couldn't take Itachi's body, as Itachi was sick and dying and even if he wasn't he could still beat him in a fight.

If Madara had transferred himself to a zetsu clone via some jutsu-Kabuto wouldn't have been able to "revive" Madara using Edo Tensei...

Squall
02-26-2012, 10:56 PM
Hey man, it is a great theory, I like it. It is quite possible.

The only thing I have against it, is how on earth is this going to be put in dialogue?

Kyūbi no Yōko
02-27-2012, 05:18 AM
But then that would mean Tobi(Fugaku) tricked Itachi into believing that he was Madara:(. It's something the fanboy within me simply won't accept!!`;)

Tobi fooled Itachi in 2 things.

Tobi being Fugaku -- Making Itachi believe he wasn't Fugaku.
Tobi being Madara -- Making Itachi believe he was Madara.

We know Madara's accomplice was Tobi.
Also, Kishi is fixing something now. // Hashirama's face on Madara's chest was an experiment done by Oro (as stated by Kabuto).

This means Madara was still alive at Fugaku's time.

Orochimaru probably did these experiments when Naruto was 12 (Part 1 of Anime) and at the same time Fugaku was alive.

Madara was back to see what happened to his clan.
He found out who the leader was and made him his own accomplice, teaching him his own ways, relating him to Zetsu, etc.

When Madara found out he'd die (probably few months after the experiment on his Chest, that's what enabled him to get Rinnegan) he told Tobi (Fugaku) to take his personality, and taught him many secrets so then Tobi disguised himself as Madara and showed great skill to prove that.

--

It makes a lot of sense, taking the leader of the Uchiha, teaching him what to do, Madara was probably behind the Coup D'Etat, he basically talked with Fugaku, and manipulated him so he could do the Coup D'Etat, something Madara couldn't do long time ago.

K3nsh!n
02-27-2012, 06:56 AM
Tobi fooled Itachi in 2 things.

Tobi being Fugaku -- Making Itachi believe he wasn't Fugaku.
Tobi being Madara -- Making Itachi believe he was Madara.

We know Madara's accomplice was Tobi.
Also, Kishi is fixing something now. // Hashirama's face on Madara's chest was an experiment done by Oro (as stated by Kabuto).

This means Madara was still alive at Fugaku's time.

Orochimaru probably did these experiments when Naruto was 12 (Part 1 of Anime) and at the same time Fugaku was alive.

Madara was back to see what happened to his clan.
He found out who the leader was and made him his own accomplice, teaching him his own ways, relating him to Zetsu, etc.

When Madara found out he'd die (probably few months after the experiment on his Chest, that's what enabled him to get Rinnegan) he told Tobi (Fugaku) to take his personality, and taught him many secrets so then Tobi disguised himself as Madara and showed great skill to prove that.

--

It makes a lot of sense, taking the leader of the Uchiha, teaching him what to do, Madara was probably behind the Coup D'Etat, he basically talked with Fugaku, and manipulated him so he could do the Coup D'Etat, something Madara couldn't do long time ago.

I didn't get that first part...
Do you mean that there were 2 Tobis? First real Madara who faked to be Tobi and then Fugaku pretending to Tobi(Madara)??

And I am not sure about the timeline...

Also I don't think Madara told Fugaku to take his identity...
I think it was because of Minato that Fugaku got that idea. Minato asked Tobi(Fugaku)if he was Madara due to which Fugaku realized that he could fool others as posing Madara...

Belisarius
02-27-2012, 08:39 AM
If Madara had transferred himself to a zetsu clone via some jutsu-Kabuto wouldn't have been able to "revive" Madara using Edo Tensei...

all one needs to perform edo tensei is dna of the person, and a body. and that was Orochimaru's. It wouldn't surprise me if Kabuto has somehow improved upon it in someway allowing him to resurrect the body even if the soul is lost.

It's feasible madara's body is resurrected by kabuto while madara's soul is being harbored in a zetsu clone body.

K3nsh!n
02-27-2012, 09:42 AM
all one needs to perform edo tensei is dna of the person, and a body. and that was Orochimaru's. It wouldn't surprise me if Kabuto has somehow improved upon it in someway allowing him to resurrect the body even if the soul is lost.

It's feasible madara's body is resurrected by kabuto while madara's soul is being harbored in a zetsu clone body.

Edo Tensei has Three Basic Requirements:

Sufficient DNA sample of person to be revived
The Soul of the of person to be revived has to be accessible i.e it should be in the "Pure World"
A living human sacrifice


It doesn't matter how many "tweaks" Kabuto did -the fundamental principles and hence the requirements will remain the same...

If what you said had been true-about Kabuto resurrecting only Madara's body without its soul-then said "body" will be like a puppet or a doll. Without its soul the current ET Madara should have had no personality nor any thoughts of its own. It should not have had any of the skills the real Madara possessed nor his knowledge...
But current ET Madara obviously has a personality, knowledge and skill of the real Madara as well as the "thoughts"...

Moreover if what you said had even been possible, why didn't Kabuto resurrect all of the previous Hokage in the same manner?`:|

Kyūbi no Yōko
02-27-2012, 11:02 AM
I didn't get that first part...
Do you mean that there were 2 Tobis? First real Madara who faked to be Tobi and then Fugaku pretending to Tobi(Madara)??

And I am not sure about the timeline...

Also I don't think Madara told Fugaku to take his identity...
I think it was because of Minato that Fugaku got that idea. Minato asked Tobi(Fugaku)if he was Madara due to which Fugaku realized that he could fool others as posing Madara...

No no. It was the same guy, fooling Itachi in two ways.

Basically, he made Itachi remove Tobi = Fugaku thought. He also made Itachi believe that Tobi = Madara.

Exodia1337
03-06-2012, 03:48 AM
Tobi is Tobi Bryant!!

K3nsh!n
03-06-2012, 04:53 AM
Tobi is Tobi Bryant!!

And who the heck is that? o.o

MinatoXNaruto
03-06-2012, 05:16 AM
That explains Itachi's "he's only a shell of his former self" line.
That line has no relevancy to that theory. He just said that because he thought Tobi was weak. Itachi had no idea who Tobi really was. That's why Tobi said "If Itachi really knew who I was, I'm pretty sure I'd be dead by now". Tobi has to be a person since him and Madara were alive during the same time because they plotted together. We just need to know who he is.

BelieveIt
03-10-2012, 11:22 PM
I do agree with your theory. Fugaku was my original assumption of Tobi's true identity after seeing Madara revived from Kabuto's Edo Tensei. However, then I stumbled upon the Obito-Tobi Theories. While many people strongly refute that theory, it's still a possibility. In Naruto, people may be "killed off" but that doesn't mean they can't come back to the show. We've seen this occur many times in the show already with characters supposedly being dead/incapacitated and then coming back later. I'm not too certain which Uchiha to go with on this one. Either Fugaku or Obito are my favorite bets on Tobi's identity. I can't really imagine what else could be the case other than those two.

Mizukage
03-11-2012, 12:16 AM
Tobi fooled Itachi in 2 things.

Tobi being Fugaku -- Making Itachi believe he wasn't Fugaku.
Tobi being Madara -- Making Itachi believe he was Madara.

We know Madara's accomplice was Tobi.
Also, Kishi is fixing something now. // Hashirama's face on Madara's chest was an experiment done by Oro (as stated by Kabuto).

This means Madara was still alive at Fugaku's time.

Orochimaru probably did these experiments when Naruto was 12 (Part 1 of Anime) and at the same time Fugaku was alive.

Madara was back to see what happened to his clan.
He found out who the leader was and made him his own accomplice, teaching him his own ways, relating him to Zetsu, etc.

When Madara found out he'd die (probably few months after the experiment on his Chest, that's what enabled him to get Rinnegan) he told Tobi (Fugaku) to take his personality, and taught him many secrets so then Tobi disguised himself as Madara and showed great skill to prove that.

--

It makes a lot of sense, taking the leader of the Uchiha, teaching him what to do, Madara was probably behind the Coup D'Etat, he basically talked with Fugaku, and manipulated him so he could do the Coup D'Etat, something Madara couldn't do long time ago.

My only problem is the part wer u assume that orochimaru did the firsts head experiment while madara wad still alive... I thought madara seemed pretty surprised and at first wasn't sure wat was on his chest

Kyūbi no Yōko
05-13-2012, 02:35 AM
He knew he had that on his chest, he "intentionally" got hit by it (as he said).