Rinnegan Is The Original Dojutsu Of Rikoudo Sennin NOT The Juubi

[kalmeast]

Ok... I know this is one hella controversial topic and this' an attempt to seal it once and for all:D through some deductions from earlier chapters...

(This is not an attempt to down anybody's theory, i've had this discussions in the past)

* It's important to understand Kabuto's intention tho' we dont know details.
- chp 490 pg 2 "My interest lie solely in the PURE unaltered truth about Ninjutsu"
- chp 521 pg 4 "And eventually I will learn the secrets of the SAGE OF THE 6 PATHS"
- chp 560 pg 18 (concerning Madara's rinnegan) "The SAGE OF THE 6 PATHS, I can now touch a fragment of the god's POWER with your power that i've created"

~From these we can infer that Kabuto is searching for that pure truth connecting to Rikoudo before he became the Jinchuriki of the Juubi... (THIS IS THE UNALTERED truth of his Power)... And if the Rinnegan is a part of Kabuto's research, and a fragment of Rikoudo's power, then it CANNOT be a part of the Juubi. Otherwise to find the pureness of it, Kabuto would have to direct his research toward the 9 Bijuud, but we all know he has little to no interest in them.

** The Pattern by which Tobi Reveals The Rikoudo Is Mostly Sequential

- chp 467 pg 13 Tobi Introduces the Rikoudo sennin - He possessed the RINNEGAN, (no 6 Magatama on his neck, that's if Tobi's head is not in the way)

- chp 467 pg 14 The Juubi is introduced with 9 Tomoe inside it's eye and Rikoudo stands infront of it with Only a GLOW of Chakra around his body (His own strong chakra)

-chp 467 pg 15 The 9 Bijuus are created, next panel we see Jinchuriki-Rikoudo with a FLAMING chakra around him, Next panel we see The Flaming Chakra with Rinnegan (without Tomoe), Next The 9 Bijuus are split from Rikoudo, then the Moon (juubi's body) in that order.

-chp 467 pg 16 We see the eye of the moon plan, with 9 tomoe's in it

At this point Tobi was narrating and he was doing this sequentially. If we agree it was sequential then we can deduce that Before Rikoudo met the Juubi he had The Rinnegan. (the only argument will be to disprove that this storytelling was sequential which is hard to)

~~ If the rinnegan was the Juubi's then there's no doubt that if inherited, the entire eye including the 9tomoe would be manifested in the Rikoudo but we dont see that at all, neither in Nagato nor Madara's rinnegan. This shows that they are different abilities from different sources.
Rikoudo's elders son shouldn't have been able to inherit the Rinnegan either since it wouldn't be in his fathers original DNA...

*** Lastly Is The Later Chapter Showing The Rikoudo's Back
-Chp 572 pg 12 We see the back of Rikoudo with TWO symbols, Rinnegan and 9 Tomoe/Magatama

~~~If The Rinnegan Belongs to the Juubi and the 9 Tomoe Belonged to the Juubi, there'd be no reason to separate the two? Just like Hinata with leaf + Huuga symbol, or Uchiha with Fan + Leaf symbol, the two represent two distinct affiliations. It'd be one symbol if they'er both representing the juubi.

[Naruto]

Lots to read but I agree with you.

[SilentBlade]

I am not saying that its not possible that the Rinnegan isn't something that simply existed as a KG. However that doesn't make sense with Nagato getting it, which is the problem people have been trying to unravel (we are pretty sure they weren't surgically put in).

Consider this, Rinnegan is something that does occur due to the Juubi chaka or simply chakra of each of the 9 different bijuu. However, when Rikudou Seninn goes to "beast mode" you can see the eyes transform into what they are.

The only other question about the rinnegan, or explanation would be that the Rinnegan eyes are sealed within each member of the Uzumaki clan, and the only way they can be active is through the use of a specific seal. Something directly related here has to exist, because we have to understand how Nagato got it, before we can understand how its awakened (Nagato is proof that you do not need to awaken it through the SHaringan).

[kalmeast]

I am not saying that its not possible that the Rinnegan isn't something that simply existed as a KG. However that doesn't make sense with Nagato getting it, which is the problem people have been trying to unravel (we are pretty sure they weren't surgically put in).
Firstly to say Rinnegan isn't something that exist as a KG is completely speculative...we have no such evidence... my interest is whether it came from the Rikoudo or Juubi...how it's activated is not my argument.

Consider this, Rinnegan is something that does occur due to the Juubi chaka or simply chakra of each of the 9 different bijuu. However, when Rikudou Seninn goes to "beast mode" you can see the eyes transform into what they are.
Again, this is speculative than it is deductive.... Madara did activate it before he died, are u to say he did so with Bijuu chakra?

The only other question about the rinnegan, or explanation would be that the Rinnegan eyes are sealed within each member of the Uzumaki clan, and the only way they can be active is through the use of a specific seal. Something directly related here has to exist, because we have to understand how Nagato got it, before we can understand how its awakened (Nagato is proof that you do not need to awaken it through the SHaringan)
This is only by reason of dismissal of Tobi's statement that he gave Nagato the rinnegan and also Madara's recent comment..

In green
i'm limiting the amount of speculation i make in this thread...it's basically deducing from chps so arguments need to be limited in speculations too...u know.

[jkd29663]

In green
i'm limiting the amount of speculation i make in this thread...it's basically deducing from chps so arguments need to be limited in speculations too...u know.


Exactly Madara proves that biiju isn't neccesary he unlocked it by DNA.
And as far as we have been told Tobi/Madara put those eyes in Nagato makes sense. Where else would they hav come from i seriously doubt that a 12 year old had such an event that scared him and pulled so much power out that he jus awaked the rinnegan all of a sudden.

[K3nsh!n]

* It's important to understand Kabuto's intention tho' we dont know details.
- chp 490 pg 2 "My interest lie solely in the PURE unaltered truth about Ninjutsu"
- chp 521 pg 4 "And eventually I will learn the secrets of the SAGE OF THE 6 PATHS"
- chp 560 pg 18 (concerning Madara's rinnegan) "The SAGE OF THE 6 PATHS, I can now touch a fragment of the god's POWER with your power that i've created"


~[COLOR=White]From these we can infer that Kabuto is searching for that pure truth connecting to Rikoudo before he became the Jinchuriki of the Juubi... (THIS IS THE UNALTERED truth of his Power)... And if the Rinnegan is a part of Kabuto's research, and a fragment of Rikoudo's power, then it CANNOT be a part of the Juubi. Otherwise to find the pureness of it, Kabuto would have to direct his research toward the 9 Bijuud, but we all know he has little to no interest in them.

You said it yourself!
The rinnegan is a fragment, a fragment of Sage's power!!
It's a part of a greater dojutsu- the Sharinnegan!!
The Sharinnegan is the unaltered truth of the Sage's power! Kabuto wants to attain THAT power which is why he is helping Tobi because only Tobi has rinnegan and sharingan to perform Izanagi to revive the Juubi!

What people are finding difficult to accept is that the Sage wasn't as strong as legends claim, before he fought the Juubi!
But you have to remember that those with fame often have a larger-than-life image associated with them! This is how legends are born!
People wanted a reason that they could believe as for how the Sage could perform such an incredible and unbelievable feat! So they began to develop their own stories! And one such story that took hold over the years, was that the Sage was born with his powerful dojutsu and was able to defeat to the Juubi! In their view, the Sage was a "God" who used his ocular powers to protect humans from the Juubi!
But some like Kabuto knew there had to be some other logical explanation of Sage's power and hence his search regarding the truth behind Rikuddo's power!!

If the rinnegan was the Juubi's then there's no doubt that if inherited, the entire eye including the 9tomoe would be manifested in the Rikoudo but we dont see that at all, neither in Nagato nor Madara's rinnegan. This shows that they are different abilities from different sources.
Rikoudo's elders son shouldn't have been able to inherit the Rinnegan either since it wouldn't be in his fathers original DNA...

Like I said the Juubi's chakra caused Sage's eyes to mutate into Sharinnegan! And I am sure you know-mutation is hereditary! So it's entirely possible for sharinnegan to be passed on!!
If sharingan and rinnegan were from different sources how is it that Madara progressed his sharingan to rinnegan? Kabuto confirmed that Rinnegan is the evolution of the sharingan.
Madara's final step in achieving Sage's power was to combine both sharingan and Rinnegan!

Which is to say:
The Juubi's eye is the origin of all dojutsus!!

[BozothyClown]

Exactly Madara proves that biiju isn't neccesary he unlocked it by DNA.
And as far as we have been told Tobi/Madara put those eyes in Nagato makes sense. Where else would they hav come from i seriously doubt that a 12 year old had such an event that scared him and pulled so much power out that he jus awaked the rinnegan all of a sudden.

Well his parents were murdered right in front of him...If thats not a frighting enough event what else is?

I believe the Rinnegan can be manifested by both Senju/Uzumaki and Uchiha. How this is done I cant say just like everyone else since we know quite few details about it. But I do know that the Demonic statue of the outer path has the ability to use Chakra Chains.

Those as we know have only been seen in one other...Kushina Uzumaki. Now im not gonna say that the Chains are limited to Uzumaki or not but maybe that is a connection to the Rinnegan from the Uzumaki. While the Uchiha just progress their own eyes into the Rinnegan?

[paradigm1977]

I assume that Nagato's and Real Madara's rinnigans are the same pair. first is Jiraiya's reaction to the eyes, and how rare they should be. Then there's connecting the age of Nagato when we meet him with the eyes, and ET Madara's opinion of Nagato. He called Nagato a brat. So that's the last time he saw that kid. This timing of the eye transfer from Madara to Tobi (who can't develop/flex/strengthen their power), to Nagato (who can, since he's a Uzumaki) fits perfect. Not definite, but a deliberate set-up to think about it.

[Kyūbi no Yōko]

Rinnegan does not derive from the Juubi. Its origins are Sharingan, then after upgrading it becomes the Rinnegan.

I do not have a very solid explanation for Juubi's eye. Probably the 9-tomoe present the 9 Bijuu sealed in it, and the Rinnegan pattern because Juubi was under Rikudo's control. Just like with Tobi, when he controlled Kurama.

[jkd29663]

Well his parents were murdered right in front of him...If thats not a frighting enough event what else is?

I believe the Rinnegan can be manifested by both Senju/Uzumaki and Uchiha. How this is done I cant say just like everyone else since we know quite few details about it. But I do know that the Demonic statue of the outer path has the ability to use Chakra Chains.


I thought he awakened it be4 him and his friends were about to fight the rogue ninjas

[SilentBlade]

Rinnegan does not derive from the Juubi. Its origins are Sharingan, then after upgrading it becomes the Rinnegan.

I do not have a very solid explanation for Juubi's eye. Probably the 9-tomoe present the 9 Bijuu sealed in it, and the Rinnegan pattern because Juubi was under Rikudo's control. Just like with Tobi, when he controlled Kurama.

So let me get this right, to awaken the Sharingan for someone its a known KG for, you need a stressful event or some specific training that will awaken it. Then for the MS you need to kill your best friend or someone really close, or something even more emotionally stressful to awaken that. Then to get the EMS you need to find someone else with the MS and take their eyes...BUT to get the Rinnegan you just skip all those other steps and start out with just a high stress event...that just doesn't make any sense.

Whether the Rinnegan is a result of the Juubi or not, the secret to how it is awakened will probably play out sooner than later. We should also consider that perhaps Tobi was lieing and the elder son was the "good" while the younger son was the "evil" or to put it, the Uchiha descended from the younger son, and the Sharingan was a result of trying to obtain the visual Dojutsu of the Rinnegan through different means. That then would explain how in order to get it (for the Uchiha) you have to sacrifice so much. It would also explain how it was simply awakened in Nagato.

I mean, Tobi has been shown to lie already, so how much further can we take it?

Edit: also let us not forget the similar image of what looked like a tailed beast bomb when Naruto and Sauske hit each other with a rasengan and chidori and the combination of their chakra , and what exactly that looked like at the water fall. There is probably more to their relation with the tailed beasts than we are looking at (both of them).

[Maruko]

I think that Rikudou had eyes like Juubi's on page 14 ch 467,when you control the beast it has the same eyes as you do. That's how sharingan contol works,Kyuubi had Sharingan in eyes while he was controled,so when SO6P controled Juubi it had the same eyes as he did.

SAGE HAD RINNEGAN WITH 9 TOMOE!

[Kyūbi no Yōko]

Yes but it wasn't only Tobi who talked about Rikudo or knew about him. People who mentioned and that know that the Sage had the Rinnegan :

Jiraiya, Ibiki, Kakashi, Oro, Kabuto, etc.

They all confirmed Rikudo had the Rinnegan. And it was HIS, not the Juubi's.

[Maruko]

Yes but it wasn't only Tobi who talked about Rikudo or knew about him. People who mentioned and that know that the Sage had the Rinnegan :

Jiraiya, Ibiki, Kakashi, Oro, Kabuto, etc.

They all confirmed Rikudo had the Rinnegan. And it was HIS, not the Juubi's.

I guess you're right :D

[BozothyClown]

Yes but it wasn't only Tobi who talked about Rikudo or knew about him. People who mentioned and that know that the Sage had the Rinnegan :

Jiraiya, Ibiki, Kakashi, Oro, Kabuto, etc.

They all confirmed Rikudo had the Rinnegan. And it was HIS, not the Juubi's.

You say they all confirmed he had the Rinnegan. How is this possible? None of those mentioned knew the Rikudo or ever saw him. He was a myth and legend known as having the Rinnegan.

But did he really have the Rinnegan is the real question? Noone knows but the Tailed Beasts. But I do believe it was originated in him.

[Twilit Lion (Leo)]

I think that Rikudou had eyes like Juubi's on page 14 ch 467,when you control the beast it has the same eyes as you do. That's how sharingan contol works,Kyuubi had Sharingan in eyes while he was controled,so when SO6P controled Juubi it had the same eyes as he did.

SAGE HAD RINNEGAN WITH 9 TOMOE!
Or the Juubi had a sharingan eye and some of its chakra was left over in the Uchiha ancestor and that was passed down while activating the rinnegan takes something else. Think about it, The Juubi was said to have massive foul chakra which may be awakened throgh high stress, hence when Uchihas have more stress it seems their Sharingan evolves.

[Rikudo Sage]

Rikudo Sennin divided the Juubi into 9 tailed beast right.. How in the world did Madara awakened the Rinnegan when he himself is not connected with the Juubi.. Same thing with Nagato.. Why would need to obtain Senju + Uchiha DNA Only to activate it and not the Juubi then..

To say that the Rinnegan came from Juubi then Senju + Uchiha DNA are no longer needed... which is incorrect..

Its pretty clear and simple that the Rinnegan came from Rikudo and not from the Juubi..

[SilentBlade]

If it were so easy to attain the Rinnegan from both senju and uchiha dna, don't you think it would be more common? considering that either side could have simply taken DNA from the other during the on going battles! even up to when itachi killed most of the Uchiha clan, the Senju could have easily taken DNA...there is much more to it than that..

[K3nsh!n]

Honestly!! I could soon lose count of how many times I have to repeat this:
The Juubi's sinister chakra caused Sage's eyes to mutate into a dojutsu with a "ripple-like pattern" and nine tomoe (NOT rinnegan)!
It was a hereditary mutation and was thus passed on to his descendants as Sharingan, Byakugan, "Rinnegan"(Madara/Nagato's dojutsu) etc!!

If you need further proof of whether a bijuu's chakra could affect the jinchuriki in a manner causing physical changes-check out Naruto's and even Kinkaku/Ginkaku's (or whatever their name is, the two brothers who had Sage's treasured tools) whisker marks. They are because of Kurama's chakra!

[kalmeast]

Honestly!! I could soon lose count of how many times I have to repeat this:
The Juubi's sinister chakra caused Sage's eyes to mutate into a dojutsu with a "ripple-like pattern" and nine tomoe (NOT rinnegan)!
It was a hereditary mutation and was thus passed on to his descendants as Sharingan, Byakugan, "Rinnegan"(Madara/Nagato's dojutsu) etc!!

If you need further proof of whether a bijuu's chakra could affect the jinchuriki in a manner causing physical changes-check out Naruto's and even Kinkaku/Ginkaku's (or whatever their name is, the two brothers who had Sage's treasured tools) whisker marks. They are because of Kurama's chakra!
you say it as if it's factual...we all don't know.. we can only deduce;).
"When Tobi took control of Kuubi's, His sharingan Tomoe's appeared on Kuubi's eyes correct?. So if we see 10 tails bijuus infront of Rikoudo, we can also speculate that at the moment of 9 tomoe on a rippled eye, that Rikoudo was taking control of Juubi with his rinnegan correct. This is valid.

NOW, it's expedient that Kishi drew how the Sharingan reacts on Kuubi eye under control.
* chp 501 pg 8... Kuubi's Original catlike pupil changes into round sharingan pupil.
** Kuubi's original round Iris remains while the sharingan tomoe detracts into the iris ring.

Similarly it could be deduced that when the sage took control of Juubi's eyes, His rinnegan took over the Juubi's eyes while the Juubi's original 9 tomoes remained. :D

[K3nsh!n]

you say it as if it's factual...we all don't know.. we can only deduce;).
"When Tobi took control of Kuubi's, His sharingan Tomoe's appeared on Kuubi's eyes correct?. So if we see 10 tails bijuus infront of Rikoudo, we can also speculate that at the moment of 9 tomoe on a rippled eye, that Rikoudo was taking control of Juubi with his rinnegan correct. This is valid.

NOW, it's expedient that Kishi drew how the Sharingan reacts on Kuubi eye under control.
* chp 501 pg 8... Kuubi's Original catlike pupil changes into round sharingan pupil.
** Kuubi's original round Iris remains while the sharingan tomoe detracts into the iris ring.

Similarly it could be deduced that when the sage took control of Juubi's eyes, His rinnegan took over the Juubi's eyes while the Juubi's original 9 tomoes remained. :D

I know its all speculation-but it will become a fact soon ;) :p

I, for one, find it difficult to believe that the Sage simply had the Rinnegan from the beginning...

Look at it this way...
What are the chances that the Juubi was plaguing the world only to be stopped by the Sage who just happened to have the most powerful (known)dojutsu ever?!!
Moreover this dojutsu had the same ripple like pattern as in the Juubi's eye!!
Now add the fact that it is entirley possible that the Sage could have been born and died before/after the Juubi's appearance i.e. their timelines don't necessarily have to cross.
Also the sharingan that was supposedly derived from this dojutsu also has similarites with the Juubi's eye!
What's the probability of all this happening randomly??
Very very slim...

Notice that both these dojutsu i.e the rinnegan and sharingan can control the bijuus which just happen to be the beasts that were formed from the Juubi!!
Coincidence??!!
Think what you may, but I think that the reason the Rinnegan and Sharingan can control the bijuus so well is not simply because they are powerful dojutsus, but rather because the bijuus share a certain affinity with them since they are derived from the Juubi(original bijuu)'s eye!

[kalmeast]

I agree that perhaps the Juubi's eyes were Sharingan with 9 tomoe replicative of the moons eyes plan which shows a sharingan with 9 tomoe and casts tsukuyomi.

OK.
It's Absolutely Impossible For The Juubi To Have Had The Rinnegan:roll:...I'll tell you why.

* The Rinnegan wield 6 paths of Reincarnation/Pain and these paths are only in relation to Human beings. The Beast/Juubi does not fall under this!

** If the Juubi had Rinnegan from the start, Are you telling me that It possessed Summoning Jutsu? I mean think about The juubi summoning other Animals through the ANIMAL PATH ABILITY to help him fight? Come on...that's crazy if Kishi went that route. I can see Rikoudo doing this rather than the Juubi. (personally i don see the Juubi using the 6 paths ability like Mind reading, Taijutsu, hand-signs like we've seen Nagato and deva path use....i mean serioiusly, handsigns `o.o")

*** Look at 373 pg 4 when Rikoudo was first introduced by Jiraiya. If it talked about him finding ninjutsu shouldn't it show him in his original form as it did? And guess what he had the rinnegan... according to Jiraiya:
"...They Were Called A Tool Of God, A Tool Of Heaven That Would Bring Salvation When The World Was In Caos.... Or A Weapon That Would Destroy All Creation And Return Everything To Dust..."
In Rikoudo's case it was the Former and It was said to be from Heaven, A Gift... And Rikoudo did bring peace/salvation to the world. It wouldn't make sense if he brought this peach into the world before acquiring the Rinnegan from The Juubi would it?

[skibum]

Now add the fact that it is entirley possible that the Sage could have been born and died before/after the Juubi's appearance i.e. their timelines don't necessarily have to cross.
Also the sharingan that was supposedly derived from this dojutsu also has similarites with the Juubi's eye!
What's the probability of all this happening randomly??
Very very slim...

Notice that both these dojutsu i.e the rinnegan and sharingan can control the bijuus which just happen to be the beasts that were formed from the Juubi!!
Coincidence??!!
Think what you may, but I think that the reason the Rinnegan and Sharingan can control the bijuus so well is not simply because they are powerful dojutsus, but rather because the bijuus share a certain affinity with them since they are derived from the Juubi(original bijuu)'s eye!


I don't remember where it's been stated anywhere that the Sharingan came from the Rinnegan. Unless you are assuming that it came from the Rinnegan because RS had it and his son had the Sharingan. I remember Kakashi saying it came from the Byakugan at one time. In the pictures the eldest son's Rinnegan also looks more like a spiral than a Rinnegan, but not really a Sharingan either. The problem I'm having with all this dojutsu business is that these pictures of the Sage and his sons are all just images from the mind of the one telling the story. These pictures don't exist in history because the Sage himself was just considered a myth. The only memories of him existing lie with the tailed beasts and the only physical evidence is a secret stone tablet that the Uchiha hold in private.

Perhaps the Sage was more like Naruto than we think. If he was an Uzumaki he'd have the large chakra reserves and perhaps a Byakugan since it's been hinted that the Hyuuga are one of the oldest clans in the shinobi world. If RS used the Uzumaki sealing techniques to seal the ten tails it's possible the extra power caused his Byakugan to evolve. Thus creating a new dojutsu. Later when he had two sons he split his chakra and life energy into one son and a devolved new dojutsu, a type of Sharingan in the other.

I'm not saying this is what happened, but everyone seems to take the flashes of RS and his sons as fact. When in fact they are just myths that have been passed through history.

[K3nsh!n]

I agree that perhaps the Juubi's eyes were Sharingan with 9 tomoe replicative of the moons eyes plan which shows a sharingan with 9 tomoe and casts tsukuyomi.

OK.
It's Absolutely Impossible For The Juubi To Have Had The Rinnegan:roll:...I'll tell you why.

* The Rinnegan wield 6 paths of Reincarnation/Pain and these paths are only in relation to Human beings. The Beast/Juubi does not fall under this!

** If the Juubi had Rinnegan from the start, Are you telling me that It possessed Summoning Jutsu? I mean think about The juubi summoning other Animals through the ANIMAL PATH ABILITY to help him fight? Come on...that's crazy if Kishi went that route. I can see Rikoudo doing this rather than the Juubi. (personally i don see the Juubi using the 6 paths ability like Mind reading, Taijutsu, hand-signs like we've seen Nagato and deva path use....i mean serioiusly, handsigns `o.o")

*** Look at 373 pg 4 when Rikoudo was first introduced by Jiraiya. If it talked about him finding ninjutsu shouldn't it show him in his original form as it did? And guess what he had the rinnegan... according to Jiraiya:
"...They Were Called A Tool Of God, A Tool Of Heaven That Would Bring Salvation When The World Was In Caos.... Or A Weapon That Would Destroy All Creation And Return Everything To Dust..."
In Rikoudo's case it was the Former and It was said to be from Heaven, A Gift... And Rikoudo did bring peace/salvation to the world. It wouldn't make sense if he brought this peach into the world before acquiring the Rinnegan from The Juubi would it?

The juubi didn't have the rinnegan. It had an eye with ripple-like pattern AND nine tomoe. I know you mean to say that it didn't have the Rinnegan powers-I just felt it necessary to correct in order to avoid further misunderstanding...

Like you said Rinnegan's paths are related to humans. It is possible that these abilities actually developed after the migration of the eye to Rikuddo-a human. The Juubi itself could have had a different set of abilities with its dojutsu.

An alternate explanation could be that the Juubi lacked the intelligence and the knowledge to use its dojutsu to its fullest potential!! The Juubi's capability to utilise its dojutsu was guided by instinct and hence its skill was limited. Following this logic, you could say that the Juubi could possibily use Tsukuyomi-would be useful for paralyzing the prey during hunting!! And so forth...

About Juubi doing hand-signs...lol!! Can't even imagine!! Too funny!!:lol:
Still if you observe it carefully, you would realize that hand-signs aren't absolutely critical to perform a jutsu...
Tobirama could do a 40 hand-seal technique with just 1 hand-seal!! And if I remember it correctly there have been ninjas like Haku who do some jutsu even with half a hand-seal i.e even with a single hand!!
The requirement for performing hand seals must be dependent on talent/skill!!

I would say the system of hand-seals for jutsus was introduced by the Sage himself! It made performing ninjutsu multiple times easier!! The hand-seals helped in proper chanelling of chakra so that even the least talented person could perform a ninjutsu with proper training!!
This goes with my other theory that the Sage deciphered the exact mechanism behind ninjutsu(now I know it was the introduction of hand-seals) when he gained a dojutsu after becoming the Juubi Jinchuriki!!

Hmmmm...all this actually gives me an idea for a new theory!!!`:P
There are no details regarding as to Juubi's appearance-how it came into being...
Maybe the Juubi already existed in an aternate world of beasts such as itself and it accidentally "reverse-summoned" itself into the human world!! How does that sound?!

P.S: All that stuff regarding Rinnegan being tool of God.... They could just be myths and legends that spawned around it!!

[K3nsh!n]

I don't remember where it's been stated anywhere that the Sharingan came from the Rinnegan. Unless you are assuming that it came from the Rinnegan because RS had it and his son had the Sharingan. I remember Kakashi saying it came from the Byakugan at one time. In the pictures the eldest son's Rinnegan also looks more like a spiral than a Rinnegan, but not really a Sharingan either. The problem I'm having with all this dojutsu business is that these pictures of the Sage and his sons are all just images from the mind of the one telling the story. These pictures don't exist in history because the Sage himself was just considered a myth. The only memories of him existing lie with the tailed beasts and the only physical evidence is a secret stone tablet that the Uchiha hold in private.

Perhaps the Sage was more like Naruto than we think. If he was an Uzumaki he'd have the large chakra reserves and perhaps a Byakugan since it's been hinted that the Hyuuga are one of the oldest clans in the shinobi world. If RS used the Uzumaki sealing techniques to seal the ten tails it's possible the extra power caused his Byakugan to evolve. Thus creating a new dojutsu. Later when he had two sons he split his chakra and life energy into one son and a devolved new dojutsu, a type of Sharingan in the other.

I'm not saying this is what happened, but everyone seems to take the flashes of RS and his sons as fact. When in fact they are just myths that have been passed through history.

Didn't Madara evolve his EMS into a Rinnegan? Isn't it proof enough that both are related?
While the exact relation is yet unknown my theory is all existing dojutsu originated from the Sage who received his(Rinnegan with tomoe) after he became Juubi Jinchuriki!
Which is to say:
The Juubi's Eye is origin of all dojutsu!!

[skibum]

Didn't Madara evolve his EMS into a Rinnegan? Isn't it proof enough that both are related?
While the exact relation is yet unknown my theory is all existing dojutsu originated from the Sage who received his(Rinnegan with tomoe) after he became Juubi Jinchuriki!
Which is to say:
The Juubi's Eye is origin of all dojutsu!!

He did evolve it to the Rinnegan, I'm not saying it's not related per say. I'm just saying that maybe the Sharingan was formed from the Byakugan and Rinnegan combo. The Byakugan being RS's dojutsu and the power up coming from the Juubi to crete the Rinnegan. Like how Naruto has some characteristics of the fox, the Sharingan was born as a hybrid of the Rinnegan and Byakugan. This is probably unlikely, but I'd personally like it better. It would give some relevance to why the Byakugan is even mentioned by Kishi at all. Because it really hasn't played a role in the show or manga for quite some time. Really everything concerning the Sharingan, Rinnegan and possibly even the Byakugan is listed on the Uchiha tablet. It's contents have never been shared; hence, anything is possible.

[K3nsh!n]

He did evolve it to the Rinnegan, I'm not saying it's not related per say. I'm just saying that maybe the Sharingan was formed from the Byakugan and Rinnegan combo. The Byakugan being RS's dojutsu and the power up coming from the Juubi to crete the Rinnegan. Like how Naruto has some characteristics of the fox, the Sharingan was born as a hybrid of the Rinnegan and Byakugan. This is probably unlikely, but I'd personally like it better. It would give some relevance to why the Byakugan is even mentioned by Kishi at all. Because it really hasn't played a role in the show or manga for quite some time. Really everything concerning the Sharingan, Rinnegan and possibly even the Byakugan is listed on the Uchiha tablet. It's contents have never been shared; hence, anything is possible.

It's not really a question as to how the Sage could have gotten the Rinnegan!! It's more of a question whether the Sage really had the Rinnegan or if he had something even greater!!
There are a few discrepancies which actually suggest that the Sage had power of both the "Rinnegan" and the Sharingan!!
Kishi is trickin' us!! The Sage didn't have the Rinnegan!! (http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5889087#post5889087)
Read the proof part again.

It's impractical for me to completely explain as to how I reached the conclusion...
My theory is the cumulative result of an attempt to explain the above discrepancies as well as the similarity between the Juubi's eye and "Rinnegan", Sharingan and the truth behind the origin of dojutsu among the ninja....
It was born from an inspiration rather than a logical attempt...
But it fits well logically with all the existing info we have so far-once you accept the possibility that Rikuddo once had normal eyes and could have received his original dojutsu from the Juubi!

[kalmeast]

The juubi didn't have the rinnegan. It had an eye with ripple-like pattern AND nine tomoe. I know you mean to say that it didn't have the Rinnegan powers-I just felt it necessary to correct in order to avoid further misunderstanding...

Like you said Rinnegan's paths are related to humans. It is possible that these abilities actually developed after the migration of the eye to Rikuddo-a human. The Juubi itself could have had a different set of abilities with its dojutsu. I agree the Juubi had it's own dojutsu but NOT rinnegan.

An alternate explanation could be that the Juubi lacked the intelligence and the knowledge to use its dojutsu to its fullest potential!! The Juubi's capability to utilise its dojutsu was guided by instinct and hence its skill was limited. Following this logic, you could say that the Juubi could possibily use Tsukuyomi-would be useful for paralyzing the prey during hunting!! And so forth... Come on.. this is a conjecture that is trying to make sense outta your original premise. :roll:

About Juubi doing hand-signs...lol!! Can't even imagine!! Too funny!!:lol:
Still if you observe it carefully, you would realize that hand-signs aren't absolutely critical to perform a jutsu...
Tobirama could do a 40 hand-seal technique with just 1 hand-seal!! And if I remember it correctly there have been ninjas like Haku who do some jutsu even with half a hand-seal i.e even with a single hand!!
The requirement for performing hand seals must be dependent on talent/skill!! All the examples u gave still used handsigns. whether 20 or 1 is still handsigns. If handsigns wasn't needed, then if Tobirama could reduce 40 to 1, it shouldn't be hard to reduce 1 to 0...this is actually a point to support the importance of handsigns regardless of mastery of a jutsu.

I would say the system of hand-seals for jutsus was introduced by the Sage himself! It made performing ninjutsu multiple times easier!! The hand-seals helped in proper chanelling of chakra so that even the least talented person could perform a ninjutsu with proper training!!
This goes with my other theory that the Sage deciphered the exact mechanism behind ninjutsuThis i agree completely
(now I know it was the introduction of hand-seals) when he gained a dojutsu after becoming the Juubi Jinchuriki!!
....you contradict yourself big time. Here!
If the sage Introduced Handsigns after becoming the jinchuriki of the Juubi this must mean that He fought the Juubi without knowing any hand-signs. If so, then without handsigns the only sense-making element is that he had a Kekke Genkai capable of defeating the juubi. If he did have a Kekke Genkai, then the most convenient guess would be the Rinnegan.

Hmmmm...all this actually gives me an idea for a new theory!!!`:P
There are no details regarding as to Juubi's appearance-how it came into being...
Maybe the Juubi already existed in an aternate world of beasts such as itself and it accidentally "reverse-summoned" itself into the human world!! How does that sound?! This sounds amazing, awesome and spectacular...:D

P.S: All that stuff regarding Rinnegan being tool of God.... They could just be myths and legends that spawned around it!! Even so, that's the variables given whether myth or true, it's not up to us to change that to suit our premise...

perhaps we can debate on somethin else it's like regardless of my effort to point things out to ya, u make new things up to fit ur original premise... :)

in green

[K3nsh!n]

Come on.. this is a conjecture that is trying to make sense outta your original premise

It was just an alternate explanation-I try and tackle the question using different approach-maybe I went overboard by claiming it could use Tsukuyomi, but there is no denying that if the Juubi did lack intelligence its use of the dojustsu would be guided by instinct...

All the examples u gave still used handsigns. whether 20 or 1 is still handsigns. If handsigns wasn't needed, then if Tobirama could reduce 40 to 1, it shouldn't be hard to reduce 1 to 0...this is actually a point to support the importance of handsigns regardless of mastery of a jutsu.

What about Rasengan?? I forgot to mention it, but it doesn't require any hand-signs!! And Naruto's Rasenshuriken is possibly the most powerful wind element technique!!
My point is if you could reduce even a complicated 40 hand-seal technique to just 1 hand seal-its possible to perform the least complicated techniques(3-4 hand-seals)without any hand-seals

....you contradict yourself big time. Here!
If the sage Introduced Handsigns after becoming the jinchuriki of the Juubi this must mean that He fought the Juubi without knowing any hand-signs. If so, then without handsigns the only sense-making element is that he had a Kekke Genkai capable of defeating the juubi. If he did have a Kekke Genkai, then the most convenient guess would be the Rinnegan.

Yes even I agree that the Sage had a Kekki Genkai! NOT Rinnegan but Wood release!(requires 1-3 hand-seals)
We all know Hashirama's wood release could tame the beasts! And we recently saw the scale at which Madara could perform it-comparable to Hashirama's!
It's not hard to believe that the Sage could also perform it to that level...
Now add to it the possibility that the Sage could also have been a Sage(nature energy user).
The scale at which the Sage could perform the Wood release is then amplified by a factor of 5x+. Should be enough to put up quite a fight even against the Juubi, don't you think?!

Isn't it odd that whenever there has been a mention of Senju DNA it always has been regarding Hashirama's because of his Wood release!! If only Senju DNA was requirement for unlocking the Sage's power- any Senju's DNA should suffice. But I don't see Kabuto going after Tsunade for her DNA even though she is a known Senju+ she's alive! Arguably, she is strong and all, being hokage and a Sannin-but getting a blood sample shouldn't be that difficult for someone like Kabuto compared to getting First Hokage's DNA.
This lends some credibility to my previous assumption.

perhaps we can debate on somethin else it's like regardless of my effort to point things out to ya, u make new things up to fit ur original premise... :)

I am not making stuff just to back up my theory...
Like I said before in my reply to skibum it's impractical for me to explain everything-if I did, it would be TOO BIG wall of text and then people won't even bother to read it thinking it boring(and hence waste of my time/effort)and then there will be some who will keep asking the same questions which I already answered...
So I decided to rather explain in detail whenever inquisitive people like yourself raised doubts-which gives the impression that I am making up new things to fit my original premise!!:(
It's more like I am simply uncovering hitherto unknown pieces of the puzzle!!:D

P.S: Anything claimed be a tool of GOD literally, has to be treated as a legend/myth-the existence of GOD hasn't been proved(although it also can't be disproved) neither in the real world nor in the Naruto world- but then that is a topic for another thread!